Any former Salafis here?

[muslim786]

Assalamulikum WR WB,

I was wondering if any forum member here was formerly a salafi. I would like to know of their experiences of this group and why they left it.

JazakAllah

[fnaeem]

well I was never an official salafi. still was praying as my parents had taught me ( hanafi) but had set out stating that I dont follow a madhab and that I am from neither one of the madhabs but was a salafi. but Allah intervened and protected me from my own idiocy. Subhan Allah.

Faisal

[Muawiyah]

I used to be affiliated with the "Islami jamiat-e-tulaba" till a few years ago. I used to be ghayr muqallid in fiqh and had many of the beliefs of the ghayr muqallideen in areas like tawassul, hayaat ul ambiyaa 'alyhimussalaam fil quboor and karaamaat.

[muslim786]

I used to be affiliated with the "Islami jamiat-e-tulaba" till a few years ago. I used to be ghayr muqallid in fiqh and had many of the beliefs of the ghayr muqallideen in areas like tawassul, hayaat ul ambiyaa 'alyhimussalaam fil quboor and karaamaat.

Assalamulikum,

My dear brother what was it exactly that made you change these beliefs, and how would you advise one to talk to his relatives who are salafi abt these issues? Also are you brother Muawiyah from Haq Char Yar forum?

[Muawiyah]

It's a long story. Basically I became disgusted with the jamaat's pragmatism and sophistry. And when I started reading books of the ulama I found that what used to consider shirkiyah beliefs and practices had definitely been inherited from the salaf. Since their beliefs proved to be false, I stopped listening to their waswaas regarding fiqh.

I used to be a member of haq char yaar's msn group but I haven't ever posted on the current forum.

[aMuslimForLife]

AnEx-SalafiForLife

in short

I first had problems with its Aqidah.

Then from that, problems with its methodology of fiqh.

And then its attitude with tasawwuf.

Maa salaama,

aMuslimForLife :D

[Saleel]

:salam:

I had Salafi tendencies for a short period of my life. Was still praying like a hanafi in the most-part... but the hands were moving up from my navel to my chest a bit each day during salaah. I began to like refuting everyone else... but then I came to my senses :cheesygri

:alhamd:

:salam:

[ilm_seeker]

As sallamu alaikum

I didn't really become a Salafi but they did influence me. On a message board I think a Salafi posted a short article about the importance of raising the hands in Salah and how Imam Abu Hanifa's (RA) opinion was wrong. I got worried and started praying like that. Then my Dad saw me and gave me a BIG telling off! I consulted a good friend on mine and he told me more about madhabs and ikhtilaf.

I frequented different Salafi msg boards where I read more about them and learnt about them. I respect the Qutubi/Jihadi brand of Salafiya more as I think they are slightly more down to earth (but not entirely). But generally speally I'm quite disgusted with their attitude towards non-Salafis, how layman 17 year olds think they have the ilm to refute Ulema and their ghayr muqalideen stance and their attacks on Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) specifically.

Their disassociation of tasuwaf and sprituality reduces them to just a set of rules & regulations! And thats that!

Wa alaikum as sallam

[GenN]

Assalmu alykum,

I was never officialy a salafi either. When i first started practicing Islam i just followed the 2 main brothers who guided me to become practicing. Both the 2 brothers were good friends of each other also. One of them was a salafi and one was a brelvi :o (now thers something for you to ponder over).

Anyway i never had anything against salafiyah and prayed behind them and just held them as my normal brothers in Islam as another madhab more than anything else i guess (although i did think of a lot of them to be arogant).

That was until my trip to pakistan.

There i met some salafi (or ahulul hadith as they are known in pakistan) Ulema. These were local ulama and were the people i ended up hanging out with. They knew i was a hanafi as i prayed the hanafi way, and so they probably thought they would guide me. So they started asking me aqeedah questions initially and all went well, and they were happy with my answers until they asked me "where is Allah".

I said "nowhere"

they said "above but we dont know how"

so logically (they implied to me not to use logic) i got totally confused by this thinking how can Allah be encompassed by direction but at that stage i had never looked into this subject previously. So i became reluctant to accept what they were saying but then they gave me hadith after hadith and ayah after ayah to prove Allah was above. I took their evidences down and said i would check them out when i get back to UK. Of course after checking them out i realised hwo they had mis interpreted everything and got it all wrong.

And to this day (almost 2 years later) i still speak to one of the brothers over email trying to prove to them Allah is not somehow up there.

However this encounter changed my attitude towards the salafis. Now i do not feel comfortable praying behind salafis (how can i when there are major differnces in aqeedah?)


So since that day i looked into salafiyah and realised that it was not only this point in aqidah where there were major differences between them and ahlul sunnah, but other points, such as tasawuf. i was already aware to some extent about the taqleed issues.

now i need some advice.

When i go back to pakistan, i dont wanna create further fitna but i dont think i will be able to pray behind them. there is another local brelvi mosque (when i was in pakistan i didnt go to the brelvi mosque as i thought them to be deviated even commiting shirk and the ahul hadith brothers had told me they think they are kafir) in which i will inshAllah be praying in when i go back but this is gonna cause major talk in the viallage amongst everyone else and these ahul hadith brothers are not gonan be happy but i wanna keep on good terms with em to discuss with em. Any ideas what i should do and how to politely tell the locals and the salafi brothers that i am not praying in their mosque becaseu the imaam has major aqeedah issues?

[seven]

i was heavily influenced by salafis when i went to uni... it was a good thing. it made me question everything i did. but alhamdulillah, i had access to ulemas that could answer my questions.

before i went to uni, i used to think that Allah is everywhere in the literal sense... but after questioning that, i was put right by the (deobandi) ulemas.

with regards to praying behind them... a salafi friend of mine used to lead the salah. we told him about our stance on doing masah over normal socks... although he didn't follow our opinion, he never did masah over his socks when we used to pray behind him. sometime other salafi brothers used to lead who had done masah over their socks (which even had big fat holes in them!) we still prayed behind them but once we finished... we used to pray our fardh salaah again individually.

[mujahideenryder]

asalamualykum,

actually currently im going thru some tuff isues wit myself, either being hanafi or salafi, i wasn't official either like most of you, i was attracted to their very catch phrase "just follow the quran and sunnah" that phrase is so powerful it captures many young muslims, it captured me

well thats why i came to sunniforum, just to learn more and protect me from becomin one, i hope inshaAllah i'll learn a lot from this forum,

walykumsalam

[Mustafa]

i was attracted to their very catch phrase "just follow the quran and sunnah" that phrase is so powerful it captures many young muslims, it captured me

Wa alaikum as salaam

Yes, I thought their catchphrase was pretty compelling, too, until I realised what they actually meant was 'just follow Ibn al Wahhab's, Ibn Taymiyya's, Ibn Al Qayyim's interpretation of Qur'an and Sunna.'

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[GenN]

asalamualykum,

actually currently im going thru some tuff isues wit myself, either being hanafi or salafi, i wasn't official either like most of you, i was attracted to their very catch phrase "just follow the quran and sunnah" that phrase is so powerful it captures many young muslims, it captured me

well thats why i came to sunniforum, just to learn more and protect me from becomin one, i hope inshaAllah i'll learn a lot from this forum,

walykumsalam


lol, if you know you need protection from becoming a salafi you cant be that badly influenced by them :cheesygri

[mujahideenryder]

lol, if you know you need protection from becoming a salafi you cant be that badly influenced by them :cheesygri

hahaha true, but some of my really good close friends for so long are salafis, but we try to not argue about issues so much, some times i feel influenced,

yeah im not that influenced with them, cuz my whole family are like sufis, many of them went to the rihla, some of my uncles are good friends with shaykh muhammad al yakoubi and shaykh hamza yusuf, plus my parents, ohh man hardcore sufis hahaha, they're not in any traiqa, but i think they follow shadhili cuz of shaykh nuh and my dad's friends are in that tariqa

and plus if i were to become a salafi, my parents would flip, so that alone saves me, haha but still i have some thoughts and doubts sometimes, for example when i started to learn about tawassul, i was like what the? we say in surah fatiha every time in salat "you alone we worship and you alone we ask for help" and then im reading about asking ulema in graves to make dua for me, but dont worry, im good with it now, tawassul is good :) haha

[Mustafa]

Well, sidi, if its the fiqh differences between the hanafis and salafis that people may bring up to you, then you should get (if you haven't already done so) 'Fiqh al Imam' by Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf and 'The Salah of a Believer according to the Quran and Sunnah' by Shaykh Riyadh al-Haq as both go over some bones of contention and give proofs for the Hanafi position on many things related to salah.

Hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[mujahideenryder]

Well, sidi, if its the fiqh differences between the hanafis and salafis that people may bring up to you, then you should get (if you haven't already done so) 'Fiqh al Imam' by Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf and 'The Salah of a Believer according to the Quran and Sunnah' by Shaykh Riyadh al-Haq as both go over some bones of contention and give proofs for the Hanafi position on many things related to salah.

Hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

got both of the, actually got like 10 copies of fiqh al imam to give to my friend hahahaha

i met mufti abdur rahman ibn yusuf, and i met him again and he rememberd my name, that was coool hahahahah (sorry sounds wack, but i feel special)

[Abul Hasan]

asalamualykum,

actually currently im going thru some tuff isues wit myself, either being hanafi or salafi, i wasn't official either like most of you, i was attracted to their very catch phrase "just follow the quran and sunnah" that phrase is so powerful it captures many young muslims, it captured me

well thats why i came to sunniforum, just to learn more and protect me from becomin one, i hope inshaAllah i'll learn a lot from this forum,

walykumsalam

Salamu alaikum,

Akhi al Kareem

May Allah keep you on the Haqq and Siratul Mustaqeem. I remember you from that fanatical would be Jihadi site: muslim creed (run by a distorter that i exposed: islamis4u abul layth). You were debating about Tawassul i think. You know i put up an arabic book in response to the distortions of Albani - but they took it down!

Akhi stick to the true Sunni path and the Hanafi Madhhab. If you need more literature on our Madhhab then see the link i posted on the Muwatta of Imam Muhammad (or check turathpublishing.com).

Wassalam

[Abul Hasan]

Wa alaikum as salaam

Yes, I thought their catchphrase was pretty compelling, too, until I realised what they actually meant was 'just follow Ibn al Wahhab's, Ibn Taymiyya's, Ibn Al Qayyim's interpretation of Qur'an and Sunna.'

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

Salamu alaik

Akhi you are spot on! When they say Follow the Qur'an and Sunna - they mean with the explanation of a handful like, the early three: Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Qayyim, Ibn Abdal Wahhab, and then the later 3 unholy "trinity": Bin Baz, Albani and ibn Uthaymin! This is all Taqleed - no matter how much these fanatical Mushabbiha may deny it.

Wassalam

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

I had a "Salafi" spell as well.

The reason I changed back was that I had a terrible experience where ideas about Allah swt sitting on a throne with a hand and so on were doing my head in - this actually led me to a dark path where I began to start to question my entire belief in a Creator. Alhamdolillah I then met some boys from H.T. who "rescued" me in a sense in that their understanding of the Attributes of Allah swt was sound and I was obviously won over by their arguments - though I never officially joined HT ;).

Anyway, Alhamdolillah!

Glad NOT to be a Salafi.

Wasalam.

[Sadiq]

Assallamu alaikum.

Great posts by fellow members.

Seems like a similar trend, not salafi, but have some 'links' to them in some time in our lifes.

This was the case with me too. Maybe others may agree with me or not, i dont know, but the 'experience' i had with the salafies, via offline and mostly online made us more 'aware of them' and how they react, attack and try and convince.

I would say, i was not influenced to that much of a degree, but it started of with a famous forum, and, from reflection i would say, what they all talked about was jihad, whos dojy and their three-o- shaykhs that they mention (as said br brother abul hasan).

Alhamdulilah safe now, i even fell for their 'refutation' of the Tasawwuf side, and i was even posting stuff against this great part of Islam, they we all need and hope to attach ourselves with.

But, i think, it has made us aware of thier ways, tricks and how they achieve their 'open eyed' infiltration of their way.

"There is good in anything that happens" something i might add here.

Few months back, saleel may be aware of this, i even attended a 'salafi' board to 'infiltrate' some of them to our path too (lol), and i with the help of another brother (brother mujib), we literally 'smashed' (if i may use that word) the salafi board, and it was a discussion about taqleed.

The administrator of the board was left speechless, Alhamdulilah, the works by Shaykh Nuh, Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad, and the famous book by Mufti Taqi Uthmani, were used and other resources. I am not boasting here, but it was something that effected the board, and made someof the members of the board 'think'.

Alhamdulilah, Allah has saved me and a brother named Asif from U.A.E also helped me not loose this great science of Islam; tasawwuf. May Allah reward him. Ameen.

I think, those of us who 'experienced' a bit of 'salafi weather' it made us more stronger and more eager to learn the truth, well it did with me...

my 2 cents...

[aMuslimForLife]

I say why be Salafi when you can just follow the Quran and Sunnah according to the way of the Salafu saleh and the rightly guided Ulama who followed them in their footsteps with Ijaza and isnad.

:D

[IlyasLahoz]

Akhi stick to the true Sunni path and the Shafi'i Madhhab.


great advice :mrgreen:
j/k

[Muawiyah]

for example when i started to learn about tawassul, i was like what the? we say in surah fatiha every time in salat "you alone we worship and you alone we ask for help" and then im reading about asking ulema in graves to make dua for me, but dont worry, im good with it now, tawassul is good :) haha



That was one of the things that made me flip. They believe that dua to Allah with tawassul of the awliyaa is the same as asking dead shaykhs for help. When it became clear to me that it wasn't and that Imam Ahmad rahimahullah was in favor of tawassul meaning that according to their aqaid the salaf were mushrikeen I didn't WANT to believe them anymore.

[jinnzaman]

Although I was never a salafi, alhumdillah I went to a madrasseh for a little while and gave me enough knowledge not to get fooled by their simplistic and somewhat deviant understanding of the deen, there was a handful of salafis at my school during my senior year and they were really aggressive in their 'dawah' and I simply did not have either the rational arguments nor the textual evidences to refute them.

But alhumdillah, thanks to some brothers that were more knowledgeable than I was, I learned how to refute their arguments.

I just had a confrontation with the same brother a few days ago, and alhumdillah, it was a lot more beneficial for the both of us than it was last year.

I think the main reasons why the Salafi dawah is so 'attractive' is because their literature is cheap and available and the lack of traditional islamic education, especially in the west.

[Zaid 'Abdur-Rahman]

:bism:

great advice :mrgreen:
j/k


Yes, very good advice, but it's missing something....hmmm what could it be :?: :confused:



OH YEA THAT'S RIGHT IT'S THE MALIKI MADHHAB! HAHAHAHAHAHA :cheesygri



Wasalaam,
Zaid

[Zaid 'Abdur-Rahman]

:bism:

Salaam, Akhi Jinza...


Erm.. I'm more familiar with your Islamica persona.


I do believe I've never seen you so, uh, sedate? I think that's the word I'm looking for :cheesygri

Hehe, alhamdulillah, welcome to Sunniforum.


Wasalaam,
Zaid

[IlyasLahoz]

I think the main reasons why the Salafi dawah is so 'attractive' is because their literature is cheap and available and the lack of traditional islamic education, especially in the west.
:salam:
i agree, when i came to islam some 12 years ago, all i ever met were salafis and non-salafis who nonetheless had no madhhab. i believe that in the first two years i only heard one brother say that following a madhhab was even important. alhamdulillah though, things seem to be improving, as can be seen from the many no-longer-salafi-influenced-now-fuly-sunni replies to this thread (myself included).

[mujahideenryder]

Salamu alaikum,

Akhi al Kareem

May Allah keep you on the Haqq and Siratul Mustaqeem. I remember you from that fanatical would be Jihadi site: muslim creed (run by a distorter that i exposed: islamis4u abul layth). You were debating about Tawassul i think. You know i put up an arabic book in response to the distortions of Albani - but they took it down!

Akhi stick to the true Sunni path and the Hanafi Madhhab. If you need more literature on our Madhhab then see the link i posted on the Muwatta of Imam Muhammad (or check turathpublishing.com).

Wassalam


wallahi he banned me from MC, mannn i took care of him, but then he unbanned me cuz he didn;t want to feel defeated, hahahaha, subhanAllah i know many brothers on that site, personally, i see them around in school and in the city, they're bunch of salafi thugs, haha

[ilm_seeker]

wallahi he banned me from MC, mannn i took care of him, but then he unbanned me cuz he didn;t want to feel defeated, hahahaha, subhanAllah i know many brothers on that site, personally, i see them around in school and in the city, they're bunch of salafi thugs, haha
As sallamu alaikum

You personally know MCers from ur school? Are you friends with them?

Wa alaikum as sallam

[salman]

Sallamu alaikum

Whenever someone asks me what he should study i always give him a book on the lives of the Awliya. Once their love is in your heart, everything else will Insha'Allah fall into place. Subhana'allah i was never Salafi nor Salafi leaning.

[Desiballa21]

As-salaamu alakium...


well good way to start off i guess...well haha i was 'salafi' til last night i guess you can say, i started doing raf al yadayn when i met a very knowledgeable kid who was salafi and my first reaction was wow how can he not be right hes so into the deen mash'ALLAH and he cares so much for Islam. I knew the hadith were there...especially the one about not doing raf al yadayn in salaat by Alqamah about Abdullah Ibn Masud(r.a) and in my heart I had a sort of burden on me like i was afraid to do raf al yadayn and I believe somewhere in the Qur'an it states islam shouldn't have a burden on you and if it does your doing something wrong, Though some things I still question like why don't Hanafis say amin loud in Salaat I know a hadith is there but i think theres stronger hadith to say amin loudly but i guess its just human nature....actually one of the elders from my mosque saw me doing it and told me why am I doing it if my grandparents and their grandparents have been praying the hanifi way for 1200 years and I had no answer. May ALLAH(swt) guide us all to the straight path Ameen

[mujahideenryder]

As sallamu alaikum

You personally know MCers from ur school? Are you friends with them?

Wa alaikum as sallam

yeah, i am friends wit 1 of them, actually 2, but 1 of them follows a madhab, but i dunno, bro salman knows the brothers too

[mujahideenryder]

As-salaamu alakium...


well good way to start off i guess...well haha i was 'salafi' til last night i guess you can say, i started doing raf al yadayn when i met a very knowledgeable kid who was salafi and my first reaction was wow how can he not be right hes so into the deen mash'ALLAH and he cares so much for Islam. I knew the hadith were there...especially the one about not doing raf al yadayn in salaat by Alqamah about Abdullah Ibn Masud(r.a) and in my heart I had a sort of burden on me like i was afraid to do raf al yadayn and I believe somewhere in the Qur'an it states islam shouldn't have a burden on you and if it does your doing something wrong, Though some things I still question like why don't Hanafis say amin loud in Salaat I know a hadith is there but i think theres stronger hadith to say amin loudly but i guess its just human nature....actually one of the elders from my mosque saw me doing it and told me why am I doing it if my grandparents and their grandparents have been praying the hanifi way for 1200 years and I had no answer. May ALLAH(swt) guide us all to the straight path Ameen


yess, ALLAH HU AKBAR! welcome aboard bro, this forum ur gunna enjoy, u can get all ur madhab questions answered here, inshaAllah

there are some really knowledgeable brothers on this forum, alhamdulillah!

[niqabi-X]

Brother DesiBalla21, as far as the recitation of 'Ameen' is concerned in salaah, the strength of the Ahadith used by the Ahnaaf as evidence is wll-documented, as is the evidence from the Qur'an itself.

What I really think is important however is to remember that we are not in a position to comment on the strength of Hadith especially over another. The science of Hadith is an extremely detailed and extensive one requirung years of devotion and study. We do not have that knowledge and as such are required to, as the Qur'an tells us, to consult and follow those of knowledge.

[Silver Sparrow]

well I was never an official salafi. still was praying as my parents had taught me ( hanafi) but had set out stating that I dont follow a madhab and that I am from neither one of the madhabs but was a salafi. but Allah intervened and protected me from my own idiocy. Subhan Allah.

Faisal

Alhumdulillah! I was exactly like that! There was a salafi board i went to and they indoctrinated me with their non-maddhabite beliefs the the extent that I was crying out SHIRK SHIRK SUFI every day! Masha Allah, I was guided to the right path, but unfortunately there is a sister on the same board that they are indoctrinating also, and she keeps taking advice from them despite my warnings not to. What can I do?

As salamu alaikum

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

dua'ahs.... perhaps ask her to take some islamic courses as refreshners, reminders of her deen.

i remember living overseas and was attending these halaqohs by these sisters and one time they started talking about sufism and stuff they were saying i was like huh? i never seen gatherings like that before, surely they're exagerating a little bit. anyways.... i decided to prove them wrong and invited them to my house for a dhikr gathering.
they felt offended despite they still came, they were like dont you know its haram to hold dhikr gatherings? dont you know its haram to sing nasheeds? i told them how could remembering Allah be considered wrong? or remembering Allah alone or in a group? wouldn't it be better to remember Allah in a group rather than chit chatting gossiping? They said in this case the gossiping would be better and i told them that wasn't true.
They left and I think they didn't want me at their gatherings though they were a bit nice about it or told me they weren't holding it much anymore because everyone got busy. :rolleyes: Ok...

I do remember a time or a phase that I went through for a year or so where I wasn't into following madhaabs because some ppl have told me to only follow bukhari and muslim and the rest were not sahih, and i trusted them or believed them cuz they were way older and way more knowledgeable than i. afterall they were the shaikh's wives... Allahu Alim
though i think seeing them again a few years down the road, they changed their views... didn't ask me to change mine to theirs, they had a bit more understanding of following madhaabs, despite they werent into it, they didn't mind someone else being into it.
Allahu Alim.

[ahsanirfan]

Salam o alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuhu

Before expounding on my experiences with the Salafiyyah, I'd like to briefly introduce myself. My name is Ahsan, and I am from Pakistan. I have live in the Middle East all my life, and this is the reason that initially lead me into the Salafiyyah. Currently I am in Canada, at McMaster University. I believe there is one brother here who also attends this school.

Anyways. My experience with the Salafiyyah hasn't been long in terms of time as much as it has been intellectually. I was only affiliated with this group for a year, before i realized where I was headed. Initially, I was an atheist, even though I was born into a Muslim family. I guess 'modern science' had too much of an influence on me. When I reverted to Islam a couple of years back, the first group that I was exposed to was the Salafiyyah. I was particularly influenced by their representative Dr. Bilal Philips. Fopr at least two years I battled Sufis and Muqallids. I even changed my prayer. I listened to Salafi talks and became a complete Salafi.

What I found a little itchy though was the fact that in their eyes, everyone was a bidati or kafir or mushrik, except themselves. I used to assume that the Salafi opinions are the ones that are held by the majority. One day that all changed. I started reading "Ikhtilaf e Ummat aur Sirat e Mustaqeem" by Maulana Ludhianwi. I did not like what I read in that book initially. But when I started an in depth research on this matter, I found that the jamhoor of the ulama have opinions contrary to those held by the Salafiyyah. I was initially shocked. Gradually though I began to understand things, and now, alhamdolillah, I accept everything that I initially rejected, namely tawassul, tasawwuf, taqleed etc.

My main problem with them now is their rejection of tasawwuf. The long and short of the matter is that the Salafiyyah do not want you to make Zikr of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, and this iswhat I don't like about them. How can one Muslims stop another from making Zikr? Unbelievable.

Subhan Allah. I hope, insha Allah, that wear are rid of this menace as soon as possible. Ameen.

Ma'as Salam

[saq333]

Salaam,

I dont think I ever called myself "Salafi"; but my dad somewhat switched from a traditional Hanfi to one around the time I was leaving for college.

Id say I was just one of those Muslims who prayed, ate halaal, read Quran, etc. Based on what I was taught, my father was/is extremely religious.

When college began, it was a bunch of us desis around a largly arab community. They were good people, respectable, humble, and doing their best to accomodate and teach us. (as opposed to the commonly held view of Salafi self-righteousness).
Anywayz, we were probably influenced some then.

As I did reading on my own, I started paying more attention and becomming interested in all aspects of Islamic tradition. I was still non-madhab though.
But one thing did change by the time I graduated, I began to respect traditional scholarship much more. Id take a ruling from a Classical scholar, those from generations closer to the Prophet(s), over some contemporary saudi shaykh anyday.

Over the past few years, Ive been debating salafis, defending the Madhab position. The more I read about Islamic history, all the great Imams, I wanted to be more of that tradition. There were also some nice essays from sh.Abal Hakim Murad, sh.Nuh Keller.

But, I have to be honest, from a position of being in-between, I find just as much hate from the Madhabi side as the Salafi side. Im probably going to get disagreement for that line, thats just my opinion.
Theyre "Ahl'ul Bid'a" and only we're "Ah'lus Sunnah Wa'jamah".
+
When Im around the Madhab folk, I feel like defending the other side--though it is much more difficult, since Ive been fully convinced of Traditional Islam; just not sold on the rigid following of only one Madhab. I dont ask for daleel straight from the text, so I can interpet it myself, but as Ive mentione in numerous posts now, it seems fair to me to take Fiqh rulings from any of the respectable Mujtahid Imams.

Ive now read some of the proofs here, one brother sent an extremely long essay (jazakallahkhair bro), I wasnt able to get throuhg it all. But what I got from it was that, since we dont know arabic, we cant pick and choose between Madhabs. Now, ive used that argument agasint salafis to take from classical scholarship as opposed to opening up Sahi Bukhair and dropping your own fatwa bomb.
The thing about this in regards to Fiqh, at least for me, I get all my fiqh answers from english-translated books, Like "Reliance" or Ibn Rushd's "Primer", on my own anywayz. Im not really in a traditional scholastic situation to learn directly from a teacher.

Perhaps due to my experience up until now as a non-Madhabi, I still have problems conceptualizing some of the arguments. This probably isnt even a "madhab" topic per se, but things like Tawussul keep pushing me away from the other side.

I find the aspect of Tasawwuf to be very important, that the Love for Allah that the Prophet(s) had, is therefore Sunnah for us. So, there is a need to put your heart into it.

But as far as I'll go with what we refer to as Tasawwuf these days is Shaykh Hamza Yusuf's teachings. Its a position of moderation.
Im not a groopie fan just because hes the celebrity speaker at Isnas, but Ive probably learnt the most Islam from him, through lectures and books, than any other modern-day teacher.

anywayz, the post is getting too long.

salaamz
saqib

[Abdur_Rahman]

asalam alaikum

I possibly have some salafi intent however I want to read more about the hanbali madhab (i.e., athari ? )

I live in washington, dc and I want to if there are any hanbali's on this forum who can share some information to me please, inshallah :)

[muslim786]

asalam alaikum

I possibly have some salafi intent however I want to read more about the hanbali madhab (i.e., athari ? )

I live in washington, dc and I want to if there are any hanbali's on this forum who can share some information to me please, inshallah :)
the following website is a good place to start www.htspub.com

[abdul518ca]

I was only a Salafi in matters of Aqida, in Fiqh, I was Hanbali/Hanafi. Until an ex-Salafi told me about the real Islam.

I read Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani's book, I ddidn;t know it was Hanbali, so I started praying according to it. :lol: But I used to do some Hanafi stuff also like putting hands under the navel, etc. :cheesygri

[Ansari]

My main problem with them now is their rejection of tasawwuf. The long and short of the matter is that the Salafiyyah do not want you to make Zikr of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, and this iswhat I don't like about them. How can one Muslims stop another from making Zikr? Unbelievable.

Ma'as Salam
:salam:

Brother just a note, the salafi's dont deny dhikr, they do it all the time. Its a part of islam and they say that if the meaning of tasawwuf is dhikr/zuhd then there is no problem with it. They just dont get along with tawassul, various forms of zikr, sufi tariqa's etc.

[someone]

My main problem with them now is their rejection of tasawwuf. The long and short of the matter is that the Salafiyyah do not want you to make Zikr of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, and this iswhat I don't like about them. How can one Muslims stop another from making Zikr? Unbelievable.


As brother Pako said, they don't have any problem with 'zikr', they just don't approve of the sufi way of zikr. I used to go to this strict salafi mosque long time ago in Maryland and one day the Imam of the masjid gave a talk on 'sufism'. Well, we all can guess what he said. After that I actually learned what our salafi brothers believed in. Unfortunately, one of my roommates became Salafi. Then with the help of Salafi brothers there, he got married.

May Allah protect our Iman. Aameen.

[someone]

'Ayah Center' in Laurel on Route 1 North. Imam Saeed used to be the Imam there but then he left.

[YaNabi]

Assalamualaikum

from such a long time i wanted to share my experience...being raised in saudi...i was a lot under salafi influence but i learned the word salafi after i came to canada....we moved here in 2000...and i learned that word in 2003...i loved shouting Shirk, Kufr, Biddah, Haraam, Mamnu, Kafir, Mushrik...these were my magical words...no day would go by in which i havent used these terms...i was full of hate and anger...and this drive to prove everyone rong.....and man i use to feel so up right and religious though it was all out wardly to quite an extent...also i had this urge and stubborness to be diff then my family, freinds and relatives....

i use to be very active with tableeghi jamaat i loved it then we moved our house...then i become active with jamaatey islami...we use to have lectures and so manythings in which i learned about abdulwahab, Shaykh ibn taymiyyah r.a, uthaymeen, albani, bin baz, sayyid qutb and few others....concepts of grave worshiping, and superstitious and how nasheeds, hamds, manqabats, naath, salaam, qaseeda's are all biddahs and evil deviation from sunnah

i was convinced that these ppl r correct....but the most imp factor which use to help me to continue beleive that these people were right that was ...look makkah and madinah is in saudi and these ppl r saudis...i cant go rong with that...then i also beleived every saudi and arab is a wahabi

then in a very small time ....i met lot of people....in a very strange way...i had few very diff and new experience which changed my life...and changed the way i use to see things....i will be concise here at leats try to....my heart feels like telling everything but...inshaAllah some other day...i was so rong even today with confidence i can say that there r way more sunnis in saudi then salafis....we went to madinah over there we met saudis they talked to my father...they asked him to join them in zikr...Whoa....we went to this some villa huge...like hundreds of sauids...like hundreds...then met one AlGillani family in Madinah...they were pure saudis...same ...their mansion was jam pack with ppl ...since they had zikr gahtering and nasheeds and salaams that night before dinner....then we went to makkah and we end up at some rich siddiqui saudi family (al doctors)...i never saw any bigger zikr gathering then that (over here we met lot of people who were children of many different Sahaba (r.a))...i learned about Shaykh Almaliki then...in jeddah there was one sudani shaykh,,,whoa...over there i was taken back to meet saudis from my own community...and so was my father surprised to see saudis from his work place...at one point my dad thought these saudis must be from diff province...most of them were from hijaaz and najd ...very few from alaseer and alhasaas...

then my mom was freind with many saudi families as she was an arabic teacher...we were once invited to AlAttas family for eid dinner....over there we met AlAmoudi, Basabrain, Binladen and binmehfouz family members...all rich millionares saudis....they had Qaseedah burdah and nasheeds that night....

then i went to india...i saw my people doing same what i have seen in saudi...now i was confused....started pondering what was all this jamaat e islami thingy was...i learned few stuff about them...then my freinds father left jamaat islami for tableeghi jamaat and i later learned y...then i had no doubt in my mind that this is nothing but a group of extremists...alhamdulillah today i am working with the grandsons of Colonel Sayyid Ameeruddin Naqshbandi (Hyderabad, Tableeghi Jamaat)...and the Khalifah of Shaykh Abba Ghadda AlQadiri of Kenya...in my community things...nice to be on the right/correct path.

wa^assalaam

[Abdur_Rahman]

'Ayah Center' in Laurel on Route 1 North. Imam Saeed used to be the Imam there but then he left.

:salam:
The masjid is called Al-Ghurabah
;)
Saeed Rageah now currently lives in Calgary, Canada, he was the previous Imam at ICCL (Islamic Center of Laurel a few years back). Do you still live in Laurel and who as your former roommate?

There is a new regime there (Al-Ghurabah), alhamdulillah they are some good brothers there who broke away from some of the old fitnah, we can perhaps talk via e-mail because I don't think sunniform uses the Private Messaging function, Allah knows best.

modedit: please exchange e-mail addresses in the brothers section. Jazakhs.

[abu bakr]

brother what is your problem with the salafis inshallah i can refute some of the misconceptions you have about them. i realsie that some of them can be quite exreme and intolerant but i think they are a lot closer to the quran and sunnah then you think

[Abdur_Rahman]

brother what is your problem with the salafis inshallah i can refute some of the misconceptions you have about them. i realsie that some of them can be quite exreme and intolerant but i think they are a lot closer to the quran and sunnah then you think

:salam:

Me? I didn't say anything about the individuals who call to the dawah
:$

[analyzing]

ya all don't wanna start another 'madhab' vs 'salafi' war here. you can find many threadsss here on this topic.... so just chill out ya all.... 'search' for it.

[Abdur_Rahman]

ya all don't wanna start another 'madhab' vs 'salafi' war here. you can find many threadsss here on this topic.... so just chill out ya all.... 'search' for it.
:salam:

brother I'm not here to start anytype of fitnah :$

[analyzing]

For 'Madhhab' vs 'Salaafee'

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2286

[Abdur_Rahman]

Thanks but no thanks :salam:

[WhyArgue?]

Salaam Aleykum

I grew up around the Salafi's. I never fully fell into their schemes, but when someone grows up around people, your going to have some of their tendencies.

Alhamdullilah, Allah protected me from their constant fitnah, and attacks against the Saliheen. It was so Salafi, they had made books, creating their own Madhab.

They say, every act is Bida'h or Kufr, the truth is, there whole mentality and mind frame is a poison. I have seen many converts run away from Islam because the Salafi's chased them away. A lot of them returned when they found the true side of Islam in Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jamaat.

I remember being a young boy in the Mesjid, and me and my friends were playing in the Musalah. I was maybe 6 years old, and the Imam told us it was Haraam for us to play in the Musalah, and he made us leave. I forgot my socks there, and i ran back to get them, when i went back, the man yelled at me and said "You are a liar and a cheater, Muslims are not liars or cheaters." Unfortunatly the narrow minded [...clipped...] Imam wouldnt listen to why i came back. I have many harsh and utterly disturbing stories of the Salafi's, and to think of them makes me cringe and sadness comes to me.

The Salafi's that i grew up with were not only horrible at how they treated the children, they disrespected Imams and Awliyah including the 4 great Imams may Allah be pleased with them all.

Alhamdullilah, before the salafi's could do any damage to a young mind as was me, i saw a picture of Mevlana Shaykh Nazim, and on his chest was a beautiful butterfly that had just landed on where his heart is. And from that moment, none of their misguidances effected me. Alhamdullilah, living the attitude and life of a Salafi is nerve racking, its just holding in anger and ego all the time. Allah change them and make their hearts soft InshAllah

Forgive me if i sound angry or harsh. Its just what i had to deal with, i was never Salafi by heart, just by certian actions that i had picked up. Alhamdullilah, i have forced myself to remove these poisonous habits away from my daily actions.

Walaikum Salaam.

edited: Let's be nice with the language please :)

[Abdur_Rahman]

Everyone uses sometype of extreme measures when handling things (in your case when you was 6), my thing it to obtain sabr and move on, and yes I've dealt with plenty of individuals who say they're upon the manhaj. However there character is the total opposite, however it didn't stop me from being their brother in this deen. I let them be, but continue to seek ilm and break away from those individuals. 'EVERYONE' has character flaws, it's sad that alot of the muslims lack the hikmah when dealing with others, and it's also sad how alot of muslims can take ilm from a webserver (as this one told me..... :cheesygri ) but would that person do if the internet went down they would be lost and stranded. Likewise I've dealt with other muslims who (mashallah ascribe to a certain school of fiqh) they have their extreme measures too, basically no one is safe from their own desires be it salafi, khalafi, ikhawni, qutubi, tableeqhi, sufi, jihadi (the list goes on and on :rolleyes: ) and all the rest of the tariqahs out there.

[abu bakr]

brother i understand that some salafis can be abit harsh and extreme this is one major criticism of the salafi dawah. however, you need to understand what this particular manhaj calls for. they emphasise tawhid a great deal and you may ask urself why they do that the reason is that shirk is the worst sin one can commit and it is the only sin which allah swt will not forgive. the salafi dawah also call for strict adherence to the sunnah and rejecting bidah. now u tell me how can this be a bad thing.

you just have to look at all the groups that are out there and see the things they do. the bidahs they introduce and the shirk.

[ahsanirfan]

brother i understand that some salafis can be abit harsh and extreme this is one major criticism of the salafi dawah. however, you need to understand what this particular manhaj calls for. they emphasise tawhid a great deal and you may ask urself why they do that the reason is that shirk is the worst sin one can commit and it is the only sin which allah swt will not forgive. the salafi dawah also call for strict adherence to the sunnah and rejecting bidah. now u tell me how can this be a bad thing.

you just have to look at all the groups that are out there and see the things they do. the bidahs they introduce and the shirk.

LOL

[WhyArgue?]

brother i understand that some salafis can be abit harsh and extreme this is one major criticism of the salafi dawah. however, you need to understand what this particular manhaj calls for. they emphasise tawhid a great deal and you may ask urself why they do that the reason is that shirk is the worst sin one can commit and it is the only sin which allah swt will not forgive. the salafi dawah also call for strict adherence to the sunnah and rejecting bidah. now u tell me how can this be a bad thing.

you just have to look at all the groups that are out there and see the things they do. the bidahs they introduce and the shirk.



I most definatly do not agree with you. I did not know that SALAWATUL NABI was important before i moved away and became a Sunni. OUR SHAHADA IS LA ILLAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMEDUR RASULLULAH. this is what makes us MUSLIMS, we cannot have one without the others or we arent complete. Tawhid? They say Allah has hands and feet and you are telling me that they are trying to emphisize Tawhid? Where is shirk? Can you tell me if i am doing shirk? WHO IS THE JUDGE OF SHIRK? Tell me who is the judge. And they are going behind the greatest scholars and making up their own ideals? They are judgemental people. I have many people i know, they say if you dont keep a beard you are going to hell. Who are these people to judge me, when Allah is the only judge? One of Allahs names is AL HAKAM, which literally means "The Judge." Did Allah give anyone HAKAM, even prophets to judge other individuals? To my knowledge he never did, nor gave any of us the right to judge each other. Salafism is completely WRONG, and to take claim and judge individuals because of there appearence, is wrong, and judging is only for Allah. This is not the Sunnah of Rasullulah (S.a.w).

Do not come to me thinking you can help me understand the Salafi's. I understand fully of how they operate. They are not giving you Dawah, they are instilling fear, and not fear of Allah mind you, fear of how you will be judged and treated infront of them. If someone thinks he is on complete sunnah with the correct ideaology for Tawhid, and is judging someone and thinking they are higher then them, what is he really doing? One Salafi told me, that he can SEE with his eye what percentage of peoples Salaat is accepted. Because the way Salat is done is more important then why Salaat is done for them. Because actions that they claim are Innovation change they way their minds work.

Instead of focusing on the heart, they focus on the mind. Never once to my knowledge does Allah refer to the mind as the main access point to knowledge or Iman in the Quran. Instead of focusing on why they pray, they focus on how they should pray. Actions are NOTHING if you dont have intentions.

What if there is a poor man who doesnt know how to pray well because he was never taught, and he prays with the best of intentions, and the man who is praying next to him is praying with the best posture and the best stance in salat, but he is thinking about how he is praying, nor why.

I was read a story once, and i think this really relates to the Salafi mind set.

One time there was a man who had just finished his Hifz. He went to the small Mesjid and was the only man there. he did his wudu and made adhan, and began to pray. As he began to pray he heard the door open. So its a mesjid and its Salat time, so he thought it would be another man getting ready to pray. The man was proud of his Hifz and wanted to show it off (Riyah) <------ For anyone that doesnt know, this is a nafs in the heart when a man tries to show off his religiousness. The man was planning on doing shorter surah's, but he started to read out of Baqarah and so forth, he made it slow and very beautiful. His Salat apparently was so long it lasted from Dhur time, till a few minutes before Asr. After the man was done, he turned around and instead of finding a man, he found a dog had crept into the mesjid and was standing behind him.

From my experiance, this is my favorite way to describe Salafi's. They dont acknowledge Jihad Al-Nafs that much. Never once when i grew up with these people did i hear Jihad Al-Nafs was important.

Walaikum Salaam.

[Mossy]

the salafi dawah also call for strict adherence to the sunnah and rejecting bidah. now u tell me how can this be a bad thing.

Eh, when they define the only valid interpretation of the sunnah as their own, equating fiqh and Shariah. Seems a bit silly.

[Usman]

you just have to look at all the groups that are out there and see the things they do. the bidahs they introduce and the shirk.

You know what that is? it's called "paranoia", when everyone except you appears to be a liar,deceiver, and ofcourse, a Mushrik. The basic disease that Salfis have been suffering all along, and the people who join them, is is called "Riya"; to show off your knowledge(which on the level of existence don't have any).

Infact, if you go through this forum thoroughly, the major bid'ati group will turn out to be the so-called "Salfi" group themselves. Its strange though , that Salfis apparently claim to follow Qur'an and Sunnah, but most of them don't even know what "sunnah" is, rather, most of these people are found to be blindly following websites , blogs, and ignorant Sunni bashers who don't know the basics of arabic grammar. لقد ھذا شئ عجاب

Dear brother,If you ever happin to understand something, then understand this, that Most of the mainstream sources of Qur'an and Hadeeth, which the so-called salafi scholars of today adhere to, are written by Muqallideen and Sufis. But that only is understandible when you stop learning Islam from the websites, and actually study their books.

wassalaam,
Usman

[abu bakr]

brother the salafi way of interpeting allahs atributes i that we accept verything allah swt says. for example allah swt has a hand but it is a hand without intepretation and the reality of this is only known to allah swt. we can never associate creation with te attributes of allah swt. so basically whne intepreting allahs swt attributes we dont add or subtract anything we leave it as it is. the asharis are wrong as they apply taweel they interpret his hand meaning power. now how can the human mind contempplate what allah swt attributes mean??? i will inshallah bring evdience from great scholars who interpret the attributes of allah swt just like the salafi way.

[abu bakr]

http://www.**********/articles/aqeedah/tawheed/asmaawassifaat/taweel.htm

the above is a link which shows the opions of great scholars regarding the attributes of allah swt. then you can decide for yourself who are right.

[ilm_seeker]

http://www.**********/articles/aqeedah/tawheed/asmaawassifaat/taweel.htm

the above is a link which shows the opions of great scholars regarding the attributes of allah swt. then you can decide for yourself who are right.
As sallamu alaikum

Are the same abu_bakr from Clear Guidance and Muslim Creed?

Wa alaikum as sallam

[Abdur_Rahman]

As sallamu alaikum

Are the same abu_bakr from Clear Guidance and Muslim Creed?

Wa alaikum as sallam
:salam:
CG and MC no longer exist correct?

[aMuslimForLife]

http://www.**********/articles/aqeedah/tawheed/asmaawassifaat/taweel.htm

the above is a link which shows the opions of great scholars regarding the attributes of allah swt. then you can decide for yourself who are right.

I don't have any problems with the quotes from the Salafus Salah, it is the quotes from the Khalaf that i have problems with. :cheesygri

Taking the apparent meaning, literally meaning, dhahir meaning or whatever you want to call it. I have a problem with that. Not a single soul from the Salafus Saleh ever said, take the apparent meaning, yet our Salafi brother who CLAIM to follow the way of the salafus Saleh insist that taking the apparent meaning of the attribute hand is upon the way of the Salafus Saleh.

Where is their proof???

[Ultra-Muslim]

the salafi dawah also call for strict adherence to the sunnah and rejecting bidah. now u tell me how can this be a bad thing.

Calling for something and doing something are entirely different. Everyone says they follow the Sunnah and reject bidah, including the Khawarij and the Shia.

Saying something, doesn't necessarily make it so.

So, it is wonderful that you believe in adherence to the Sunnah, the question is: are you actually adhering to the Sunnah, or do you just percieve that you are?



the asharis are wrong as they apply taweel they interpret his hand meaning power. now how can the human mind contempplate what allah swt attributes mean??? i will inshallah bring evdience from great scholars who interpret the attributes of allah swt just like the salafi way.

Great scholars, eh?

Well, fine, bring your scholars. This is what the great scholar, Abu Hanifa, has to say:


Fiqh Al-Akbar

by

Imam Al-Adham Abu Hanifa (ra)


In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful


The root of the affirmation of God's unity, and that which is correct conviction, consists of this, that one says:

1. I believe in God, and His angels, and His books, and His messengers, and resurrection after death, and that the good and evil of destiny are from God Most High. I believe too in the accounting and the scales, hell and paradise. All the foregoing is reality.

2. God is One, not in a numerical sense, but in the sense that He has no partner – "Say: He is God, One; God the Eternally Subsistent and Besought; He begets not, nor was He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." He resembles nothing among His creation, nor does anything among His creation resemble Him. He has been, unceasing, and He is, unceasing, with His names and attributes, both those relating to His Essence and those relating to His acts. As for those relating to His Essence, they are life, power, knowledge, speech, hearing, sight, and will. As for those relating to His acts, they are creativity, sustenance, originating and fashioning ex nihilo, making, and other active attributes.

He has been, unceasing, and He is, unceasing, with His attributes and names; neither attribute nor name was created. He has always and unceasingly been a knower, by virtue of His knowledge, and His knowledge is a pre-eternal attribute. He has always and unceasingly been powerful, by virtue of His power, and His power is a pre-eternal attribute. He has always and unceasingly been speaking by virtue of His speech and His speech is a pre-eternal attribute. He has always and unceasingly been a creator, by virtue of His creativity, and His creativity is a pre-eternal attribute. He has always and unceasingly been an agent, by virtue of His activity, and His activity is a pre-eternal attribute; the object of His activity is creation, and His activity is uncreated. His attributes existed in pre-eternity, without being created or called into existence at
a particular moment. Whoever says that they are created or summoned into existence at a particular moment, or is uncertain about the attributes and doubts them, is an unbeliever in God Almighty.

3. The Qur'an is the Word of God Almighty, written on collections of leaves (masahif), preserved in men's hearts, recited on men's tongues, and sent down to the Prophet, upon whom be God's peace and blessings. Our uttering of the Qur'an is created, and our recitation of the Qur'an is created, but the Qur'an itself is uncreated.

That which God Almighty mentions in the Qur'an as a narration from Moses and other of the prophets - peace and blessings be upon them - and also from the Pharaoh and Iblis, all of it is God's word, and constitutes a report concerning them. God's word is uncreated. It is the Qur'an which as the word of God Most High is uncreated, not their words, Moses, upon whom be peace, heard the Word of God Almighty, as God Almighty says: "God addressed Moses in speech." Thus God Almighty was the speaker, and Moses, upon whom be peace, did not speak. God Most High was a creator in pre-eternity, even without having brought creation into existence: "there is naught like unto Him; He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing." When God addressed Moses He did so with His word that was, like all of His attributes, an attribute existing from pre-eternity, unlike the attributes of created beings.

4. God knows, but not as we know; He has power, but not as we have power; He sees, but not as we see; He hears, but not as we hear; and He speaks, but not as we speak. We speak by means of the speech organs and sounds, whereas God Most High speaks with neither organs nor sounds. Sounds are created, and the word of God Most High is uncreated. He is a thing, but unlike other things; by saying "thing," we intend merely to affirm His reality. He has neither body nor substance, neither accidental property nor limit, neither opposite nor like nor similitude. He has a hand, a face, and a self (nafs); the mention that God most High has made of these in the Qur'an has the sense that these are among His attributes, and no question can be raised concerning their modality (bila kayf). It cannot be said that His hand represents His power or His bestowal of bounty, because such an interpretation would require a negation of an attribute. This is the path taken by the Qadarites and the Mu'tazilites (two theological sects in early Islam that deviated from the path of Ahl as-Sunna - trans.) Rather, His hand is an attribute, of unknowable modality, in the same way that His anger and pleasure are two attributes of unknowable modality God Most High created things out of nothing, and He had knowledge of them in pre-eternity, before their creation.

5. He it is Who determined and predestined all things. Nothing exists in this world or hereafter except by His will, His knowledge, His determining and predestining, and except it be written on the Preserved Tablet (al-Lauh al-Mahfuz). He inscribed everything there in the sense of description, not that of foreordaining. Determining, predestining and will are pre-eternal attributes of unknowable modality. God Most High knows the non-existent, while in its state of non-existence, to be non-existent, and He knows too how it will be when He brings it forth into being. God Most High knows the existent, while in its state of existence, to be existent, and He knows too how will be its evanescence. God knows the one who is standing, and when he sits then God knows him to be sitting, without any change being produced thereby in God's knowledge, or any new knowledge accruing to Him. For change and alteration occur only in created beings.

6. God Most High created creation free of both belief and unbelief, and then He addressed His creation with commands and prohibitions. Some men disbelieved through active denial and rejection of the truth by virtue of being abandoned by God Most High. Others believed through active assent and affirmation, by virtue of the succour of God Most High. He brought forth the progeny of Adam, upon whom be peace, from his loins in the form of particles, and appointed for them an intelligence. He then addressed them and commanded them unto belief and forbade them disbelief. They assented to His dominicality, this being a form of belief appropriate to them, and thus it is that they are born in the possession of a primordial nature disposed to belief.

Whoever disbelieves thereafter is therefore changing and altering that primordial nature, and whoever believes and assents is conforming and strengthening it. None of His creation has been constrained either to disbelieve or to believe; God created men not as believers or non-believers, but rather as persons. Belief and disbelief are acts of God's worshippers. God Most High knows the unbeliever, in his state of unbelief, to be an unbeliever, and if he thereafter becomes a believer, then God knows him to be a believer in a state of belief, without any change occurring thereby in His knowledge or attributes.

All deeds of God's servants, both of commission and omission, are in truth acquired by them; God Most High is their creator. All of them take place by His will, knowledge, determining and predestining. Obligatory acts of obedience and worship take place by the command, love, satisfaction, knowledge, will, determining and predestining of God Most High, and all facts of sinful rebellion take place by His knowledge, determining, and predestining and will, but not by His love, satisfaction and command.

7. The Prophets, peace and blessings be upon them, are free of all sins, major and minor, of unbelief, and of all that is repugnant. It may be, however, that they commit insignificant lapses and errors. Muhammad the Messenger of God – may God's peace and blessings be upon him! – is His Prophet, His Bondsman, His Messenger and His Chosen One. He never worshipped idols, he never assigned partner to God, even for an instant, and he never committed a sin, major or minor.

8. The most virtuous of all men after the Messenger of God, -- may God's peace and blessings be upon him! – are Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, may God be pleased with him; then 'Umar ibn al-Khattab; then 'Uthman ibn 'Affan; then 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, may they all enjoy the pleasure of God Most High. They were all steadfast in the truth, with the truth, and we proclaim our allegiance to all of them. We make only good mention of all of the Companions of the Messenger of God, may God's peace and blessings be upon him!

9. We do not proclaim any Muslim an unbeliever on account of any sin, however great, unless it be that he regards his sin as permissible. Nor does he forfeit the name of belief; we continue to call him a believer in essence. It is possible to be a sinful believer without being an unbeliever.

The wiping of the feet when covered, by way of ablution, is a sunna (under conditions specified by the fuqaha). Tarawih prayer in the month of Ramadan is similarly a sunna. It is permissible to pray behind any believer, pious or sinful. We say neither that sins do not harm the believer, nor that they cause him to remain indefinitely in hell, even if he leaves the world in a state of sin.

10. We do not say, like Murji’ites (an early theological school - trans.), that our good deeds are accepted by God, and our evil deeds forgiven by Him. Rather we say that the matter is to be clarified and expounded as follows: whoever performs a good deed in accordance with all requisite conditions, free of all corrupting deficiencies and nullifying concerns, and does not then cancel his deed with unbelief or apostasy at any time before his death, God Almighty will not cause his deed to be wasted; rather He will accept it and bestow reward for it. As for evil deeds – other than the assigning of partners to God and unbelief – for which the believer does not offer repentance before his death, the will of God Almighty may elect either to chastise their author or to forgive him, without chastising him in Hellfire. Hypocrisy and arrogance in any deed annul its reward.

11. Miraculous signs (mu’jizat) bestowed on the Prophets are established as true, and so too ennobling wonders (karamat) made manifest through the saints (auliya). As for apparently miraculous and wondrous deeds performed by God’s enemies, like Iblis, the Pharaoh and the Dajjal, whatever is mentioned in tradition as having been performed by them in future, is neither miraculous nor wondrous. Rather it is a question of their needs being fulfilled by God Most High; this he does in order to lead them toward destruction and to chastise them, but they are deceived. They increase in rebelliousness and unbelief. All of the foregoing is possible and contingent on God’s will.

12. God Most High was a Creator before He created, and a Provider before He bestowed provision. God Most High will be seen in the Hereafter, visible to the believers in Paradise with their corporeal vision. This we say without any implication of anthropomorphism, or any notion of quality or quantity, for there is not a fixed distance between Him and His creation (to permit any comparison).

13. Belief means assent and affirmation. There is no increase of decrease with respect to the content of belief, whether for angels or men, but only with respect to degrees of certainty and affirmation. The believers are equal in what they believe and in their assertion of the divine unity, but enjoy differing degrees of excellence with respect to their deeds.

Islam is surrender and submission to the commands of God Most High. There is a lexical distinction between belief (iman) and Islam, but there is no belief without Islam, and Islam cannot be conceived of without belief. They are like the outer and inner aspect of a thing (that is inseparable). Religion (din) is a name applied to both belief and Islam, and indeed to all divine codes.

We know God as it is fitting for us to know Him through His description of himself in His Book, with all His attributes; but none is able to worship God Most High as He deserves to be worshipped and as is fitting for Him. Rather man worships God Most High in accordance with His Command, as promulgated in His Book and the Sunna of His Messenger. Although believers are equal insofar as they believe, they differ with respect to knowledge, certainty, reliance, love satisfaction, fear, hope.

14. God Most High is both generous and just toward His bondsmen, bestowing on them in his liberality a reward far in excess of what they deserve. He requites them for their sins because of His justice, and forgives them because of His generosity. The intercession of the Prophets, upon whom be blessings and peace, is a reality, and in particular that of our Prophet – peace and blessings be upon him! – for sinful believers and for those who have committed major sins and are deserving of requital is a firmly established reality. The weighing of deeds in the balance on the Day of Resurrection is similarly a reality; the pool of the Prophet, upon whom be peace and blessings, is a reality; retribution among enemies on the Day of Resurrection through the redistribution of good deeds is a reality. If they have no good deeds, then the burden of evil deeds is redistributed; this too is a reality.

Paradise and Hell are created and existing today, and shall never vanish. The houris shall never vanish, and the requital exacted by God Almighty and the reward bestowed by Him shall never cease.

God Most High guides whomsoever he wills out of His generosity, and he leads astray whomsoever He wills out of His justice. God’s leading man astray consists of His abandoning him, and the meaning of God’s abandoning man is not impelling him to do that which is pleasing to Him. All this is determined by His justice.

It is not permissible for us to say: "Satan steals belief from man with violence and coercion." Rather we say: "Man himself abandons belief, and when he has abandoned it, then Satan snatches it from him."

The interrogation by Munkir and Nakir is a reality; the return of the spirit to the body in the tomb is a reality; the pressing in upon man of the tomb is a reality; God’s punishment of all unbelievers and some Muslims is a reality.

All of the attributes of God Most High – may His name be glorified and his attributes be exalted! – may be mentioned by the ‘ulama in languages other than Arabic (here Persian in particular is mentioned, but the meaning is any non-Arabic tongue - trans.), with the exception of yad (hand). Thus we may say "the face of God," may He be exalted and glorified, without any implication of anthropomorphism or of a particular modality.

Closeness to God Most High and remoteness from Him do not refer to any spatial distance, great or small, nor do they refer to the nobility or humility or man in His sight. Rather the one obedient to Him is close to him, in indefinable fashion. Closeness, remoteness [or] approaching all, in fact refer to God’s action towards man (i.e., it is not man who in the strict sense defines relation to God; it is rather God who determines that relation). Proximity to God in Paradise and standing before Him are similarly realities of indefinable modality.

The Qur’an was sent down to His Messenger, upon whom be blessings and peace, and it is that which is now inscribed on collections of leaves. The verses of the Qur’an, insofar as they are all the Word of God, are equal in excellence and magnificence; some, however, enjoy a special excellence by virtue of what they mention, or the fashion in which they mention it. The Throne Verse, for example, enjoys excellence on both counts: what it mentions – splendour, magnificence and other attributes of God – and the way in which it mentions it. Other verses have no excellence on account of what they mention – for example, those containing narratives of unbelievers – but only on account of the way in which they mention it. Similarly, all the names and attributes are equal in their magnificence and excellence; there is no difference among them.

If someone experiences difficulty with the subtleties of the science of divine unity, it is incumbent upon him to believe (without further investigation) what is correct in the sight of God Most High until he finds a scholar to consult. He should not delay in seeking such a scholar, for hesitation and suspension of judgment may result in unbelief.

The narration of the Mi'raj (by the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings) is true, and whoever rejects it is misguided and an innovator.

The emergence of the Dajjal and of Gog and Magog is a reality; the rising of the sun in the West is a reality; the descent of Jesus (‘Isa), upon whom be peace, from the heavens is a reality; and all the other signs of the Day of Resurrection, as contained in authentic traditions, are also established reality.

And God guides to his Path whomsoever He wills.

(Translated from the text published in Hama, 1392/1972. All phrases between round brackets were added by the translator.)

[abu bakr]

Brother why havent you quoted the following from fiqh al-akbar:

" He (Allah) has a Hand, a Face and a Self, as Allah the Most High mentioned in the Qur'an. So whatever Allah the Most High mentioned in the Qur'an concerning the Face, and Hand and the Self, then they are His Attributes without Kaif (asking the nature of the attributes), and IT IS NOT SAID THAT HIS HAND MEANS HIS POWER OR BOUNTY, FOR THIS IS THE DENIAL OF HIS ATTRIBUTE, and this is the statement of the people of al-Qadr (those who deny the predestination - al-Qadariyah) and al-I'tizaal (the rationalists - al-Mu'tazilah). "

[al-Fiqh al-Akbar p.302]

[abu bakr]

so imam abu hanifah is rejecting the ashari way of thinking when he says that we must not interpret allah's hand as meaning power.

[muminah]

Brother why havent you quoted the following from fiqh al-akbar:

" He (Allah) has a Hand, a Face and a Self, as Allah the Most High mentioned in the Qur'an. So whatever Allah the Most High mentioned in the Qur'an concerning the Face, and Hand and the Self, then they are His Attributes without Kaif (asking the nature of the attributes), and IT IS NOT SAID THAT HIS HAND MEANS HIS POWER OR BOUNTY, FOR THIS IS THE DENIAL OF HIS ATTRIBUTE, and this is the statement of the people of al-Qadr (those who deny the predestination - al-Qadariyah) and al-I'tizaal (the rationalists - al-Mu'tazilah). "

[al-Fiqh al-Akbar p.302]

this is the view of most of the salaf, and the correct view

[aMuslimForLife]

so imam abu hanifah is rejecting the ashari way of thinking when he says that we must not interpret allah's hand as meaning power.


You don't understand Ashari Aqidah.

Ibn Abbas Interpreted Allah's meaning power. However safe way and majority of the Salafus Saleh did not interpret Allah's Hand nor did the Salafus Saleh take the apparent meaning of Allah's hand, a position of the Salafi (Wahabi) Manhaj.

Which is why they (Wahabis) are not real followers of the Salafus Saleh.

[abu bakr]

brother shiekh ibn uthaymeen ibn taymiyah and all the other scholars interpret allahs attributes the same way as imam abu hanifah and the rest of the salaf do. it is the likes of kabbnai and haddad who have twisted their sayings i will present evidence.

[Azzam]

You don't understand Ashari Aqidah.

Ibn Abbas Interpreted Allah's meaning power. However safe way and majority of the Salafus Saleh did not interpret Allah's Hand nor did the Salafus Saleh take the apparent meaning of Allah's hand, a position of the Salafi (Wahabi) Manhaj.

Which is why they (Wahabis) are not real followers of the Salafus Saleh.

Once again labelling people that they are mujassimah without direct proof. The quotes of Sh. bin baz as I am checking them out do not say anything of what aqeedah I follow, because I follow exactly what Imam Abu Hanifah mentioned earlier.

I already know how people use Tabari and others to show that Allah's hand is power. Or what Asharis say about the kalaam of Allah. etc.....

I do not like to debate these issues as 1. People have strong feelings in them, 2. It will go nowhere and a waste of time.

As i said before I have not seen one salafi BELIEVE literally that Allah's hand is like our hand. Or any attribute is similar to him in any way, But we say we believe in them without any sort of resemblence of any type or scope.

[Abdur_Rahman]

:salam:

Can anyone please make light of this :insh:

Clarification on the Way of The Salaf

by Abû Hudhayfa

At-Tirmidhee writes in his Sunan (1/128-129):

"It has been said by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth that there is no resemblance to the Attributes of Allaah. And the Lord - the Blessed, the Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: Affirm these narrations, have faith in them and do not deny them, and do not ask how. The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, ibn 'Uyaynah and 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about these ahaadeeth: 'Leave them as they are without asking how.' Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is making resemblance (tashbeeh)! However, Allaah - the Most High - has mentioned in various places in His Book the Attribute of Hand, Hearing and Seeing. So the Jahmiyyah make false interpolation (ta'weel) of these verses and explain them in a way other than that explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand. And they say that the meaning of Hand is: Power. Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah (one of the famous teachers of al-Bukhaaree) said: 'Resemblance is if it is said: Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand. Or Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing. So when it is said: Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is making resemblance. But if what is being said is what Allaah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing, and it is not asked how, nor is it said: like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is not making resemblance. Allaah - the Most Blessed, Most High - said in His Book: There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”

Could anything be clearer than this in clarifying the confusion that Kabbani has portrayed in his books?

Let us look closely at this statement from at-Tirmidhee:

i. The view he has expressed, as he himself affirms, is the position of the People of Knowledge from Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah, such as: Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Sufyaan ibn 'Uyaynah, 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubaarak and Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah.

ii. That the Jahmiyyah accuse Ahlus-Sunnah of anthropomorphism when they agree with the views of the Imaams mentioned in (i) above. The only justifiable reply to Kabbani's aspersions that the Salafis are anthropomorphists is the statement of Alee ibn al-Madeenee (teacher of al-Bukhaaree) who said:

"When someone says so and so is an anthropomorphist, we come to know that he is a Jahmee."

(Reported by al-Laalakaa'ee in Sharh Usool I'tiqaad no.306). And Aboo Haatim ar-Raazee (d.277H) who said: "A sign of the Jahmiyyah is that they call Ahlus-Sunnah anthropomorphists." (From his book Ahlus-Sunnah p.21).

iii. Ahlus-Sunnah are not making resemblance between Allaah and His creation when they affirm for Allaah those attributes that He has described Himself with, such as: Hand, Hearing, Face etc. As Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah said:

"Resemblance is if it is said: Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand. Or Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing. So when it is said: Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is making resemblance..."

This is the very same understanding of the Salaf which ibn Taymiyyah was to repeat centuries after Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah:

"It is a must to affirm that which Allaah affirms for Himself, whilst negating any likeness to Him with His creation... Whoever says: His Knowledge is like my knowledge, His Power is like my power, or Love like my love, or Pleasure like my pleasure, or Hand like my hand, or Istawaa like my ascending, then he has resembled and likened Allaah to the creation."
(at-Tadmuriyyah, p.20, of ibn Taymiyyah)

Aside from showing that the methodology of ibn Taymiyyah was wholly in conformance with Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah and the other scholars of the Salaf which at-Tirmidhee mentioned, this quote is another concise reply to the allegations of anthropomorphism maliciously levelled at him. Ibn Taymiyyah's way, as he himself describes, was to believe in the Attributes of Allaah: "whilst negating any likeness to Him with His creation."

Therefore, since the Salafis do not say: "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand. Or Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing,"but rather say whatever Allaah has said about Himself, this is not, despite what Kabbani would have his readers believe, anthropomorphism. As Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah concluded:

"Hand, Hearing, Seeing, and it is not asked how, nor is it said: like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is not making resemblance"

[muminah]

brother shiekh ibn uthaymeen ibn taymiyah and all the other scholars interpret allahs attributes the same way as imam abu hanifah and the rest of the salaf do. it is the likes of kabbnai and haddad who have twisted their sayings i will present evidence.

i totally agree. At the moment Ive got no time, but inshaAllah after my examz (After Jan) I can provide evidences. till then wassalaam 'alaykum

[sunni]

i totally agree. At the moment Ive got no time, but inshaAllah after my examz (After Jan) I can provide evidences. till then wassalaam 'alaykum

are you an aalimah?

[Ultra-Muslim]

Obviously, you didn't read my post. I did, in fact, quote that. I will edit my post and highlight that which you overlooked.

It is #4.

Read carefully, or don't bother to debate.

Here it is again.

4. God knows, but not as we know; He has power, but not as we have power; He sees, but not as we see; He hears, but not as we hear; and He speaks, but not as we speak. We speak by means of the speech organs and sounds, whereas God Most High speaks with neither organs nor sounds. Sounds are created, and the word of God Most High is uncreated. He is a thing, but unlike other things; by saying "thing," we intend merely to affirm His reality. He has neither body nor substance, neither accidental property nor limit, neither opposite nor like nor similitude. He has a hand, a face, and a self (nafs); the mention that God most High has made of these in the Qur'an has the sense that these are among His attributes, and no question can be raised concerning their modality (bila kayf). It cannot be said that His hand represents His power or His bestowal of bounty, because such an interpretation would require a negation of an attribute. This is the path taken by the Qadarites and the Mu'tazilites (two theological sects in early Islam that deviated from the path of Ahl as-Sunna - trans.) Rather, His hand is an attribute, of unknowable modality, in the same way that His anger and pleasure are two attributes of unknowable modality God Most High created things out of nothing, and He had knowledge of them in pre-eternity, before their creation.

[muminah]

are you an aalimah?

it depends what you mean by an 'aalimah' ...

Anyways ive really got to go

in your du'aas

wassalaam 'alaykum

[WhyArgue?]

Brother Abu Bakr,

Kabbani and Haddad? Why do you bring up their names? Your Salafi scholars defame the name of the great Imam's. Where i came from they BURNED books by Imam Abu Hanifa Astagfurullah. They think just as you think, you know more. Can you honestly say you know more then Dr Gibril Haddad? He is a very learned scholar well learned in the ways of Shariah. I know exactly what your going to do, like all salafi's do, right click on your mouse, scroll over an area highlight it, and hit "copy" then come to these forums and click "paste." Dr Gibril Haddad is a scholar and he can and would refute anything you bring against him in a heartbeat, without looking at a website mind you. Discussions against people should be done infront of those people, if you dont like Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, or Dr Gibril Haddad, go to them and discuss what they have said, This is the adab of disagreement. As for the attributes of Allah (swt), the greatest scholars, from Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A) all the way till Seyyid Muhammed Alawi Al Maliki May Allah be pleased with him, have said the same thing about the Attributes of Allah (swt). WHAT DOES HANDS MEAN TO THE MIND? i dont think you understand, the word HANDS needs know translation. How do describe the word "hands?" I know when i hear hands, the first thing i think is this human physical attribute connected to my arm. The Ashari scholars are NOT wrong in how they describe, because they say Allahu Alim, the Salafi scholars claim that they are Alim and the salafi people will come without knowledge and copy and paste whatever they read. This is the Salafi way, to think that you are something special and you know more then teh scholars who have studied for years and years, this is the Salafi sickness, this is against Shariah.

[Sunni_Student786]

As salaamu alaykum.

Although I know that this is a rather personal question, are there any brothers or sisters on here that were former Salafis and would be willing to share, in brief or in detail, why they became Salafis in the first place and what turned them away from it in the end?

I myself was a former Salafi, but time will not allow me to share the whole of my story right now, although I would really be interested to know more about the stories of others who have come to see the short-comings of Salafiyyah.

Jazakallahu Khair in advance.

Wa'salaam.

[ahsanirfan]

As salaamu alaykum.

Although I know that this is a rather personal question, are there any brothers or sisters on here that were former Salafis and would be willing to share, in brief or in detail, why they became Salafis in the first place and what turned them away from it in the end?

I myself was a former Salafi, but time will not allow me to share the whole of my story right now, although I would really be interested to know more about the stories of others who have come to see the short-comings of Salafiyyah.

Jazakallahu Khair in advance.

Wa'salaam.

i was!!!