Last Sermon of our Beloved Prophet (saw)

[Omar_Farouk]

The Last Sermon of the Prophet


The last sermon of the Prophet-peace be upon him- is known as Khutbatul Wada'. It is mentioned in almost all books of Hadith. Following Ahadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari refer to the sermon and quote part of it. See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.

This Khutbah of the Prophet-peace be upon him- was long and it contained much guidance and instructions on many issues. The Prophet-peace be upon him- gave this sermon in front of a large gathering of people during Hajj.

Whosoever heard whatever part of the sermon reported it and later some scholars put it together. It is a great khutbah and we should all pay attention to its message and guidance.

Following are the basic points mentioned in this khutbah:

"O People. Lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefor listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People. Just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest); therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.

Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all interest due to Abbas Ibn ‘Abd al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.

Beware of Satan for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People. It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat you women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People. Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat.Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefor, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember one day you will appear before Allah and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone. People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

JazakuAllahkhairun.

[Julaybib]

Salaam's

Jazak'Allah.

[boafe]

The Last Sermon of the Prophet


The last sermon of the Prophet-peace be upon him- is known as Khutbatul Wada'. It is mentioned in almost all books of Hadith. Following Ahadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari refer to the sermon and quote part of it. See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.

This Khutbah of the Prophet-peace be upon him- was long and it contained much guidance and instructions on many issues. The Prophet-peace be upon him- gave this sermon in front of a large gathering of people during Hajj.

Whosoever heard whatever part of the sermon reported it and later some scholars put it together. It is a great khutbah and we should all pay attention to its message and guidance.

Following are the basic points mentioned in this khutbah:

"O People. Lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefor listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People. Just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest); therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.

Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all interest due to Abbas Ibn ‘Abd al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.

Beware of Satan for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People. It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat you women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People. Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat.Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefor, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember one day you will appear before Allah and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone. People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."


I do not know what part to believe, there are three different arabic versions of the Bold part of statement:
in Arabic:

The book of God and the "sunnah" of His prophet:
فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا بعده: كتاب الله وسنة نبيه

The book of God and the ahl albayt:
واني تارك فيكم الثقلين احدهما اكبر من الاخر كتاب الله وعترتي اهل بيتي فأنظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما

The book of God:
وقد تركت فيكم ما لن تضلوا بعده إن اعتصمتم به كتاب الله

and here are references:
{Here are the references to the three versions of the Sermon

1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3

2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

3) I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it.

Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

See Sahih Muslim, Book of Hajj, Book 7 , Number 2803:

I am really confused which one to believe now? Since many Arabic knowing people are there. can some one please gramatically check if there is any difference?

[boafe]

BUMP!!!!!! complete silence by Hadith lovers.?

[sudoku]

Salamun 'alaa manitaba'al Huda

Brother, just like you said in the other thread, people have other work to do in real life. It is a weekday and most probably people are working etc. Please be patient. According to where I live, your first post was at 5:53 AM and second post at 1:54 pm.

Anyhow, are you sincerely curious or is this a sarcastic question? Because for a hadeeth rejector, it should not really matter as you do not believe in the science of hadeeth.

[TripolySunni]

I do not know what part to believe, there are three different arabic versions of the Bold part of statement:
in Arabic:

The book of God and the "sunnah" of His prophet:
فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا بعده: كتاب الله وسنة نبيه

The book of God and the ahl albayt:
واني تارك فيكم الثقلين احدهما اكبر من الاخر كتاب الله وعترتي اهل بيتي فأنظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما

The book of God:
وقد تركت فيكم ما لن تضلوا بعده إن اعتصمتم به كتاب الله

and here are references:
{Here are the references to the three versions of the Sermon

1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3

2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

3) I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it.

Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

See Sahih Muslim, Book of Hajj, Book 7 , Number 2803:

I am really confused which one to believe now? Since many Arabic knowing people are there. can some one please gramatically check if there is any difference?

Article about the Thaqaline,

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebuttals/thaqalayn

[boafe]

Article about the Thaqaline,

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebuttals/thaqalayn

Your quoted link is one sided whereas we have three versions. If you take the version where it says, Kitab Allah and Sunnat, then I think gramatically in Arabic it is wrong (unless someone says to contrary). "Bayhee" and "Badahoo" should not have been in plural form. Therefore, it is questionable.

Each of these versions suit 1 agenda of 1 SECT... If we can call it SECT.

1. Follow the Quran and Sunnah = Ahl Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah /rejected by shias and those who follow the quran alone

2. Follow the Quran and my family = SHIA agenda/rejected by Sunnis and quran followers
3. Follow the Quran = Quran alone followers/rejected by shia and sunni

And if you take the only thing which is common in all these 3 khutbahs is the Quran as it appears in all of them... So, to be on the safe side is to stick to the Quran.

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

[meelash]

Your quoted link is one sided whereas we have three versions. If you take the version where it says, Kitab Allah and Sunnat, then I think gramatically in Arabic it is wrong (unless someone says to contrary). "Bayhee" and "Badahoo" should not have been in plural form. Therefore, it is questionable.

The reason the quoted link is one-sided is because you asked "I am really confused which one to believe now?" therefore the goal of the link was to un-confuse you and tell you, "look all three of them can't be true at the same time, and there must be a way to tell which one is true besides eeny, meeny, miney, mo, and this is the way to tell, and this is the answer." So number one is true and you have no reason to be confused anymore.

First of all behee and ba'dahoo are not in plural form (I think you may have mistyped when you stated this?). Obviously they are referring to a single entity which is the Qur'aan and Sunnah which are inseparable for us. Look I can even make a similar statement in English and be grammatically correct: "What we follow is the Qur'an and Sunnah." Notice how the word "is" is singular not plural?
Is your contention that someone made up version 1, but the maker-upper and all the people that continued his fabrication didn't know enough arabic to speak the correct sentence, until you came along and figured it out?



Each of these versions suit 1 agenda of 1 SECT... If we can call it SECT.

1. Follow the Quran and Sunnah = Ahl Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah /rejected by shias and those who follow the quran alone

2. Follow the Quran and my family = SHIA agenda/rejected by Sunnis and quran followers
3. Follow the Quran = Quran alone followers/rejected by shia and sunni

And if you take the only thing which is common in all these 3 khutbahs is the Quran as it appears in all of them... So, to be on the safe side is to stick to the Quran.


Seriously? I want you to think about this for a little while alone, and see if you can't recognize how much of a logical fallacy you are committing here.
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
Okay, I'll tell you the answer. Clearly, only one of these is correct right? The Prophet :saw: only gave one khutbah, not three. So let's assume each one is correct, and figure out which of the three sects would be covered by it:

Assuming version 1 is correct: Only Ahlus Sunnah is covered, and the other two groups are on falsehood.
Assuming version 2 is correct: Only Shias are covered and the other two sects are incorrect.
Assuming version 3 is correct: All 3 sects are covered, since all of them say Qur'aan AND something else, they are all following the Qur'aan.


So you can see that Ahlus-Sunnah and Shias are covered in two of the three cases each, whereas your group is only covered by one out of 3 cases.

So your group, according to your own logic, is inherently less "safe" than the other two. This is assuming that we should be basing our beliefs on some kind of probability study of these three versions without considering the fact that they have different degrees of soundness, there are hundreds of other ahadith that support or disprove the different versions, etc. which is obviously a fallacy in and of itself.

So I think, whatever you were trying to prove is not really happening. And if this kind of proof is the basis of your belief system, you really need to take a closer look at that.

Finally, could you clarify how your translation of version three ended up with the word "alone" in it? If you could point out how you arrived at that translation, that would be great. I believe there are three possibilities:

You got this from another source. In this case, perhaps you should be more careful of your sources and if this type of sources forms the background for your belief system, maybe you ought to reconsider that belief system.
You made a mistake. In this case you should be more careful and especially not let your preconceived notions color your research and check if this type of mistake forms the background for your belief system, in which case maybe you ought to reconsider that belief system.
You purposely, dishonestly, inserted that unsupported word as your own interpretation to confuse people who did not know. In this case I would say that if your belief system is so weak it needs to be defended by dishonesty, perhaps you ought to reconsider that belief system.

[boafe]

First of all behee and ba'dahoo are not in plural form (I think you may have mistyped when you stated this?). Obviously they are referring to a single entity which is the Qur'aan and Sunnah which are inseparable for us. Look I can even make a similar statement in English and be grammatically correct: "What we follow is the Qur'an and Sunnah." Notice how the word "is" is singular not plural?
Is your contention that someone made up version 1, but the maker-upper and all the people that continued his fabrication didn't know enough arabic to speak the correct sentence, until you came along and figured it out?

That is mine point. that these words are in "singular form", how they can refer to then "two things" (Quran and Sunnat) at the same time. It is fact that three versions cannot be correct at the same time, only one version, what a way to go!

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

[meelash]

That is mine point. that these words are in "singular form", how they can refer to then "two things" (Quran and Sunnat) at the same time. It is fact that three versions cannot be correct at the same time, only one version, what a way to go!

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

Did you read the rest of my post? It's not very considerate to me or any of the other people for you to just read and respond to a part of a post, when in fact whatever you said here was already addressed in that same post in the next few sentences.

This is either an extreme form of dishonesty or serious closed-mindedness that is preventing you from reading all the rest of that response.

[abuhajira]

That is mine point. that these words are in "singular form", how they can refer to then "two things" (Quran and Sunnat) at the same time. It is fact that three versions cannot be correct at the same time, only one version, what a way to go!

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

if the above is wrong according arabic ruling, then you should also say that Quran has a mistake as well.. Allah say


تفسير الجلالين - (ج 9 / ص 331)
فَإِنْ أَعْرَضُوا فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا إِنْ عَلَيْكَ إِلَّا الْبَلَاغُ وَإِنَّا إِذَا أَذَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنَّا رَحْمَةً فَرِحَ بِهَا وَإِنْ تُصِبْهُمْ سَيِّئَةٌ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ فَإِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ كَفُورٌ

For the word "Insaan" a singular verb is used and then right after that a plural dhameer is used. Obviously one who has learnt Uloomul Quran and Arabic language can understand these usage. But how do you reconcile.

Same will be the case here:


تفسير الجلالين - (ج 6 / ص 72)
وَدَاوُدَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ إِذْ يَحْكُمَانِ فِي الْحَرْثِ إِذْ نَفَشَتْ فِيهِ غَنَمُ الْقَوْمِ وَكُنَّا لِحُكْمِهِمْ شَاهِدِينَ

Just wanted to give an explanation of the arabic though.

As i have given the examples above from Quran, many a time in the elloquent arabic, the zameer play an important role. the statement in reference is:


فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا بعده: كتاب الله وسنة نبيه

The zameer in ba'dahu and bihi in gramatical sense neither refering to Kitab, nor to Sunnah rather it is refering to Maa. The word Maa in its apparent comes as a singular, but has a tendency of refering to something more than one (could be two, three, or more).

So the zameer is gramatically displaying this maa, which is correct. However what comes after that is the kalima bayaniya (i.e phrase of explanation). What is this Maa? It is Kitaballah an Sunnah of His prophet :saw:.

Now, Having known this explanation, we can also explain the last of the statement.


وقد تركت فيكم ما لن تضلوا بعده إن اعتصمتم به كتاب الله
Mullah Ali Qari r.a explains this when he says


مرعاة المفاتيح شرح مشكاة المصابيح - (ج 9 / ص 25)
إنما اقتصر على الكتاب لأنه مشتمل على العمل بالسنة لقوله تعالي { أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول } (4 : 59) وقوله { وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا } (59 : 7) فيلزم من العمل بالكتاب العمل بالسنة

[boafe]

Did you read the rest of my post? It's not very considerate to me or any of the other people for you to just read and respond to a part of a post, when in fact whatever you said here was already addressed in that same post in the next few sentences.

This is either an extreme form of dishonesty or serious closed-mindedness that is preventing you from reading all the rest of that response.

It is none of that! I were to leave immediately for job/university so I just give a small reply.


Finally, could you clarify how your translation of version three ended up with the word "alone"

U r right. I make rajooh. There is no arabic word in the text which should say "alone". The mistake of the source, but I also say sorry not to check it.


So let's assume each one is correct, and figure out which of the three sects would be covered by it:

1. Assuming version 1 is correct: Only Ahlus Sunnah is covered, and the other two groups are on falsehood.
2. Assuming version 2 is correct: Only Shias are covered and the other two sects are incorrect.
3. Assuming version 3 is correct: All 3 sects are covered, since all of them say Qur'aan AND something else, they are all following the Qur'aan.

So you can see that Ahlus-Sunnah and Shias are covered in two of the three cases each, whereas your group is only covered by one out of 3 cases.


Are we basing things on "ASSUMPTION". Please note that the text of "arabic" is not the same in three. So there is only one, could be right. Is it not strange that people are not unanimous even over the "arabic text", There is day and night difference in three of them.


So I think, whatever you were trying to prove is not really happening. And if this kind of proof is the basis of your belief system, you really need to take a closer look at that.

It is not question of your and mine thinking rather "fact".

I said the following:


(unless someone says to contrary).

you replied and this was relevant from the post:


many a time in the elloquent arabic, the zameer play an important role. the statement in reference is:

فإني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا بعده: كتاب الله وسنة نبيه

The zameer in ba'dahu and bihi in gramatical sense neither refering to Kitab, nor to Sunnah rather it is refering to Maa. The word Maa in its apparent comes as a singular, but has a tendency of refering to something more than one (could be two, three, or more).

Thanks for that.

Salaam on him him who follows Guidance.

[abuhajira]

Thanks for that.

Salaam on him him who follows Guidance.

Your welcome, I am glad the issue is resolved.

[boafe]

Your welcome, I am glad the issue is resolved.


"Issue" of Crammer solved. but the question remains there how there could be three version of sermon attributed to our Prophet(PBUH).

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

[TripolySunni]

Your quoted link is one sided whereas we have three versions. If you take the version where it says, Kitab Allah and Sunnat, then I think gramatically in Arabic it is wrong (unless someone says to contrary). "Bayhee" and "Badahoo" should not have been in plural form. Therefore, it is questionable.

Each of these versions suit 1 agenda of 1 SECT... If we can call it SECT.

1. Follow the Quran and Sunnah = Ahl Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah /rejected by shias and those who follow the quran alone

2. Follow the Quran and my family = SHIA agenda/rejected by Sunnis and quran followers
3. Follow the Quran = Quran alone followers/rejected by shia and sunni

And if you take the only thing which is common in all these 3 khutbahs is the Quran as it appears in all of them... So, to be on the safe side is to stick to the Quran.

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

No Actually I'm a mainstream muslim and I say all three of them represent me, whther he mentionned Family or Sahaba or Sunnah or Quran only. Because the Family follows the sunnah, and secondly the Shiites do not follow the Family anyways Heck Nahjul Balagha has many satements by Ali (RA) contradicting the entire "sect".

But if you ask me the version tha makes most sense is "Quran and Sunnah".

BTW the Article I gave you was not biased at all it mentions all possible scenarios and does not deny the other 2 exist.
Also "Assalam on those who follow guidance" is not supposed to be said to other muslims but only to kuffar.

[sudoku]

"Issue" of Crammer solved. but the question remains there how there could be three version of sermon attributed to our Prophet(PBUH).

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

Salamun 'alaa Manitaba'al Huda

I believe abuhajira answered it in the other thread, but for the convenience of others I shall post it here, :insh:.


2.Also because of many people remembering it and relaying in their own words without changing the siyaaq. And this is acceptable. The daleel is itself in the Quran:

When Allah gave glad tidings of Eesaa a.s to Bibi Mariam r.a What did she reply? She said (Now note that Allah is narrating her statement, and Allah is not void of knowledge as to what she actually said!) Allah says..


قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللَّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [آل عمران/47]

But wait Allah narates the same statement later on in the Quran as well, again attributing to Bibi Mariam a.s


قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا [مريم/20]

Pay very close attention to the verses, Inshallah Allah will open doors of wisdom upon you. The verse explicitly says "Qalat" she said.. and then there is a difference in wordings.

This ALSO answers your issue of Last Srmon. A same statement can be narrated in a different wording as long as the meaning remains intact.

[boafe]

Salamun 'alaa Manitaba'al Huda

I believe abuhajira answered it in the other thread, but for the convenience of others I shall post it here, :insh:.

]Salamun 'alaa Manitaba'al Huda

This is weak argument or no argument at all. There is day and night difference what is stated in Last Sermon's reported three versions and what have been stated in these two verses of Quran.

No where in Quran it is being said in one place a thing which is contrary in quantity or quality in other verse, whereas in Last Sermon's three versions the things are altogether different.

a) Quran
b) Quran & Sunnah (Hadiths etc);
c) Quran, Sunnah, and Family of Prophet.

Whole of Ummat has been divided on this. Whereas Quranic verses are "mutfiqalihay-without any doubt", which of the above version is "agreed one"

Salamun 'alaa Manitaba'al Huda

[sudoku]

Salamun 'alaa manitaba'al huda


This is weak argument or no argument at all. There is day and night difference what is stated in Last Sermon's reported three versions and what have been stated in these two verses of Quran.

No where in Quran it is being said in one place a thing which is contrary in quantity or quality in other verse, whereas in Last Sermon's three versions the things are altogether different.

a) Quran
b) Quran & Sunnah (Hadiths etc);
c) Quran, Sunnah, and Family of Prophet.

Whole of Ummat has been divided on this. Whereas Quranic verses are "mutfiqalihay-without any doubt", which of the above version is "agreed one"

I think it's safe to say that we're not talking about the version 'c' as that br TripolySunni has shown with the link to ahlelbayt article. What we're talking about here is 'a' and 'b', and when comparing the two Quran ayaat, it is exactly the same situation. I'll post the verses here once again, highlighting a part abuhajira had missed.


قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللَّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [آل عمران/47]

قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا [مريم/20]

Note, when Allah is saying "Qaalat" it means He's quoting what Mariam (AS) is saying. If that's the case, then why the two versions of the exact same statement, which was at the exact same time? One says "Walad" while the other says "Ghulam".

The part that abuhajira missed is what I have highlighted in blue and underlined. This is the same as how "sunnah" has been mentioned in version 'b' while it has not been mentioned in version 'a'. Unless someone is (Na'oodhubillah) going to say that Allah purposely of accidentally misquoted Mariam (AS)!

[WayFinder]

This tough issue can be solved by simple mathematics

http://i25.tinypic.com/1zel79t.jpg

;)

[WayFinder]

Salamun 'alaa manitaba'al huda



I think it's safe to say that we're not talking about the version 'c' as that br TripolySunni has shown with the link to ahlelbayt article. What we're talking about here is 'a' and 'b', and when comparing the two Quran ayaat, it is exactly the same situation. I'll post the verses here once again, highlighting a part abuhajira had missed.


قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللَّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [آل عمران/47]

قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا [مريم/20]

Note, when Allah is saying "Qaalat" it means He's quoting what Mariam (AS) is saying. If that's the case, then why the two versions of the exact same statement, which was at the exact same time? One says "Walad" while the other says "Ghulam".

The part that abuhajira missed is what I have highlighted in blue and underlined. This is the same as how "sunnah" has been mentioned in version 'b' while it has not been mentioned in version 'a'. Unless someone is (Na'oodhubillah) going to say that Allah purposely of accidentally misquoted Mariam (AS)!

She said both... it is very simple...

Firstly, she said 'walad' only... and as the angel explained her how he will grow up into a man and how he will walk on earth spreading the Words of Allah... The she said the second sentence...

This is the NORMAL REACTION of anyone who reacts under shock.. For instance someone accusing you for a crime, you will say the same sentence with slight differences... e.g 'I did not do it, i was no here'.. "I did not do it, i was far from him","I did not do it, how could i do that?" I am sure most of you MUST have experience such moments throughout their lives... Especially as a kid during school days.

It is not the very same sentence which is then quoted later... Allah did not make any error in quoting her.

As for the khutbahs... If the prophet said all 3 of them, they should appear in the same hadith relating the khutbah... and not in multiple hadiths from various collections... unlike the Quran.

There are also other big differences in the different versions like the number of people who attended the khutbah... we have 10,000 to 100,000... among others.

[abuhajira]

She said both... it is very simple...

your interpretation or the words of Quran??


Firstly, she said 'walad' only... and as the angel explained her how he will grow up into a man and how he will walk on earth spreading the Words of Allah... The she said the second sentence...


Firstly, please point the Ayah of Quran which affirms your interpretation that she said it twice!

Secondly, You have a very weak response, considering the fact that it is indeed talking about the same time. You say that her disbelief in Allah's power to do such a miracle was so overwhelming that she didnt accept what the angel was saying to her!?

It was not as though it was her initial encounter with Jibrael, or it wasnt her first time witnessing a miracle!?! Why such a level of disbelief.

lets give another example shall we..


فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39) قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللَّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاءُ [آل عمران/39، 40]

And then the same incident is mentioned here..


قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا وَقَدْ بَلَغْتُ مِنَ الْكِبَرِ عِتِيًّا (8) قَالَ كَذَلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَقَدْ خَلَقْتُكَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَمْ تَكُ شَيْئًا [مريم/8، 9]

And obviously the answer to this from you is also that he ALSO said it twice. But then why did he ask for a sign both time he asked it?


قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَلْ لِي آَيَةً قَالَ آَيَتُكَ أَلَّا تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلَاثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلَّا رَمْزًا وَاذْكُرْ رَبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالْإِبْكَارِ [آل عمران/41]
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَلْ لِي آَيَةً قَالَ آَيَتُكَ أَلَّا تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلَاثَ لَيَالٍ سَوِيًّا [مريم/10]

It seems the same family had this habit of showing disbeliefing bewiderment twice (Nauzubillah). And these are Anbiyaa we are talking about, whose belief in Allah and His Mashi'at is unwavering. YET Zakariya A.S had to say the same thing twice in different wording , and ALLAH had to reply him twice in different wordings! That is your argument.

As I said your argument is weak..

[WayFinder]

Expressing astonishment or utter disbelief are two totally different expression.

People always wants to know the HOW... This is the same that happened to Mary and the Wife of Zakaria.

Also, the same happened to Ibraheem when he asked Allah how can he resurrect a person... after he is dead... And Allah told him to take the bird,kill and spread it, then call it and it will come... [2:258-260]

The problem that taunt them ALL was the HOW ... they did not disbelieve in Allah.. At all. They wanted to appease their minds... This is basically what Ibraheem said.

The eloquence of the Quran cannot be compared to anything else and we will not find the flow of ideas to be the same as well.

BTW... How do you explain this issue according to your understand?

[abuhajira]

Expressing astonishment or utter disbelief are two totally different expression.

People always wants to know the HOW... This is the same that happened to Mary and the Wife of Zakaria.

Also, the same happened to Ibraheem when he asked Allah how can he resurrect a person... after he is dead... And Allah told him to take the bird,kill and spread it, then call it and it will come... [2:258-260]

The problem that taunt them ALL was the HOW ... they did not disbelieve in Allah.. At all. They wanted to appease their minds... This is basically what Ibraheem said.

The eloquence of the Quran cannot be compared to anything else and we will not find the flow of ideas to be the same as well.

1. It wasnt the wife of Zakariya A.S .. It WAS Zakariya. Perhaps you didnt read the verse.
2. Again your argument that the same happened to Ibraheem A.S is also weak. Ibraheem A.S asked Allah to show him how resurrection takes place, but not question it. Ibraheem A.S indeed knew that resurection is the Sunnat Allah, that He will indeed resurrect. Whereas a pregancy without a man is not Sunnat Allah. You are merely derailing the discussion into that direction.
3. If the above is only your INTERPRETATION without any Ayah to substantiate it, then our interpretation is more conforming to language, norm than your disblief interpretaion. And to back our interpretation we have historical understanding of Ulama and you have your own words alone.
4. It establishes not one fold but two fold that statement can differ in narration. That does not affect the credibility of the statement.

The Last sermon statement is exactly in the same way. One reported it one way and the other reported it the other way. Both fulfiling the siyaaq completely. And all that attested by the Ulama with tawatar.

Bye.

P.S Lets Stick to topic

[WayFinder]

1. It wasnt the wife of Zakariya A.S .. It WAS Zakariya. Perhaps you didnt read the verse.

As a man, I am prone to errors and it happened due to the haste while typing... And it happens often as well, especially to the words which I type more often than others.. If you take this as a point on me, then feel free. But I did read and understood the verse to the best of my understanding.


2. Again your argument that the same happened to Ibraheem A.S is also weak. Ibraheem A.S asked Allah to show him how resurrection takes place, but not question it. Ibraheem A.S indeed knew that resurection is the Sunnat Allah, that He will indeed resurrect. Whereas a pregancy without a man is not Sunnat Allah. You are merely derailing the discussion into that direction.

1. I know he asked Allah... But WHY did he asked Allah? Did he express UNBELIEF while asking Allah about ressurection? Of course not. You said Ibraheem KNEW that resurrection was the SUNNAT of Allah... How did he know that? Any proof? If he knew, then WHY he questioned the HOW??

2.Regarding Zakaria, it was NOT pregnancy without a MAN! But both man(zakaria) and woman(his old wife). Only for Mary it was without man. Zakaria questioned the HOW because of the AGE! Mary questioned the HOW because of her chastity and virginity. All of these are normal questions which normal people usually ask themselves. And they have not link with UNBELIEF as you implied in your past replies.


3. If the above is only your INTERPRETATION without any Ayah to substantiate it, then our interpretation is more conforming to language, norm than your disblief interpretaion. And to back our interpretation we have historical understanding of Ulama and you have your own words alone.

I did put the Ayah for Ibraheem case.. You already put the Ayah for Mary and Zakaria Case... What more ayah are you looking for?



4. It establishes not one fold but two fold that statement can differ in narration. That does not affect the credibility of the statement.

Human can make different narrations, especially regarding past events! But not Allah... He is above all these and He is not Deficient... When He says He is witness over all things... Does it mean that He can have contradicting testimony? You are definitely choosing the path which fits your the best and I have no problem with that. We will all be accountable based on our choices.


The Last sermon statement is exactly in the same way. One reported it one way and the other reported it the other way. Both fulfiling the siyaaq completely. And all that attested by the Ulama with tawatar.

Bye.

P.S Lets Stick to topic

I do not want to participate in this battle of Mutawaatwir and I leave this for the EXPERTS of hearsay verification..


The Shia say:

The Hadeeth about Quran and Sunnah is weak and narrated by only 1 Sahabi, whereas the other Hadeeth (Quran and Ahl al-Bayt) is mutawattir and narrated by 35 Sahabah.

Answer by Shaikh Gibril Haddad:

The hadith in question (Quran and Sunnah) is not weak…(and it is narrated by) at least four different Companions …the other hadith (Quran and Ahl al-Bayt) is not mutawatir as I already said…the hadith is NOT mutawatir nor narrated by anywhere near even 10 Sahaba. [Therefore, a similar number of Companions narrated BOTH Hadith, with perhaps only a couple more narrating the Hadith of the Quran and Ahl al-Bayt.]

Also, I did not went out of the topic at anytime... You can check it.

TO ADD!

This issue about WALAD and GHULAM is a surely a sign for the magnificence of the Quran and its Author.. Both Mary and Zakaria were informed that their WALAD will grow up(survive) and become a MAN(ghulam) who will be in the SERVICE of Allah... who will spread HIS words... This is the reason why once they asked about WALAD ...then when they were given further information, they asked using the word GHULAM...

A POINT TO REFLECT:

You seem to find it weird for Allah to say something twice... Like when He replied to them... Why can't Allah say something twice when All over the Quran, there are phrases which He said MORE THAN TWICE... What is the reason behind?

This is pretty self explanatory and simple alhamdoulillah.

[boafe]

Salamun 'alaa manitaba'al huda



I think it's safe to say that we're not talking about the version 'c' as that br TripolySunni has shown with the link to ahlelbayt article. What we're talking about here is 'a' and 'b', and when comparing the two Quran ayaat, it is exactly the same situation. I'll post the verses here once again, highlighting a part abuhajira had missed.


قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللَّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [آل عمران/47]

قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا [مريم/20]

Note, when Allah is saying "Qaalat" it means He's quoting what Mariam (AS) is saying. If that's the case, then why the two versions of the exact same statement, which was at the exact same time? One says "Walad" while the other says "Ghulam".

The part that abuhajira missed is what I have highlighted in blue and underlined. This is the same as how "sunnah" has been mentioned in version 'b' while it has not been mentioned in version 'a'. Unless someone is (Na'oodhubillah) going to say that Allah purposely of accidentally misquoted Mariam (AS)!

OK, let us summarize your "Base" words are "Qaalat" and "the bold and Blue one", you are saying that since the words in quran have been attributed as saying by Mariam(as) so why they are different. Since they are different in two places, then it is "daleel", that Khutba version can also have "three versions".But my point is that whereas in Quran "the words of Mariam are revolving around son", IN Khutba there are three different instittuions mentioned "Quran, Sunnah, and Family". So your example is not an argument at all.

Moreover, in Quran itself it is confirmed that it is the "Best Hadith Book" wherein, Mutashabia (Similar) statements are repeated again and again. Ok let us paste the verse for the convenience of reader:

اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ

الله ہی نے بہترین کلام نال کیا ہے یعنی کتاب باہم ملتی جلتی ہے (اس کی آیات) دہرائی جاتی ہیں.............

اللہ نے نہایت اچھی باتیں نازل فرمائی ہیں (یعنی) کتاب (جس کی آیتیں باہم) ملتی جلتی (ہیں) اور دہرائی جاتی (ہیں)

Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects):

God has sent down the fairest discourse as a Book, consimilar in its oft-repeated, whereat ....

Allah has revealed the best announcement, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating,

I have just cut it short. The verses regarding "fast" is another example. So everything is confirmed in Quran itself, this is the not the case with "Khutba:

One of the three version of Khutaba is correct, the others two are made up. I do not say anything else, except Allah knows the best.

Wayfinder!
Brother!

what superb arguments. Your arguments specially with regard to use of "dictionary" was a classic.

If you have time, just read the above quoted verse, Allah has termed Quran "as Hadith Book", do u have any reservation on this?

It is not question of 10,000 or 100,000 because that is irrelevant, the important question is the "main institutions mentioned" in the three versions, on which whole of Ummat has been divided and they form this only part of Khutba as their "base station" to launch their practices. Very nice to read your posts on this thread,

Salaam on him who follows Guidance.

[TripolySunni]

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

The Last part of the sermon is Interesting, As opposed to others I feel no confusion at all in anything that the prophet(PBUH) said nor do the three versions passed on by different people create any confusion. We Humans confuse ourselves, we decieve ourselves but what he said (Plus or minus 1 word) is as clear as daylight.

[meelash]

This tough issue can be solved by simple mathematics

http://i25.tinypic.com/1zel79t.jpg

;)

You should pay closer attention in class. This is not the correct venn diagram for these statements since the first two statement are logical ANDs, not ORs.