PDA

View Full Version : Are these people considered Arabs?



Sunni_Student786
04-01-2006, 07:55 AM
As salaamu alaykum.

I was wondering if any of my brothers or sisters who are knowledgeable in the field of classical Arab geneaology and the viewpoints of the Arab "street" could tell me whether or not the following peoples are considered "Arab" in the eyes of the experts in either field.

1) Sudanese (it's Arabic speaking peoples in the North, excluding
Egyptians who reside therein).
2) Somalis
3) Djiboutians (i.e. the people of Djibouti)
4) Eritreans

I ask this because they are all members of the Arab league, even though I know that ethnologically the peoples of those countries are usually identified as other than Arab, e.g. Afar, Tigrigna, Issa, etc. Now I know that their inclusion into the Arab league may be for other, politically motivated reasons, but I would like to know whether or not those peoples would be considered "Arab" if one were to consider their case through the use of the principles of the science of "Arab geneaology" and the view popular on the Arab street (of those countries whose "Arab" identity is rarely called into question, even if much of the inhabitants are of mixed Arab and indigenous peoples ancestry, such as is the case in Morocco, for example).

If some of my more knowledgeable brothers and sisters could shed light on the above, I would appreciate it.

Jazakallahu Khair.

Wa'salaam.

Omar HH
04-01-2006, 11:27 AM
1) Sudanese (it's Arabic speaking peoples in the North, excluding
Egyptians who reside therein).

Yeah Sudaneese Arabs.

2) Somalis
Don't know
3) Djiboutians (i.e. the people of Djibouti)
Don't know
4) Eritreans
Don't know

If they speak Arabic they are Arabs.

And really even like other races who learn Arabic (Pakistanis for instance) are Arabs but not in the technical way society sees them now. At least in my opinion.

:jazak:

Mansy
04-01-2006, 07:05 PM
1) Sudanese (it's Arabic speaking peoples in the North, excluding
Egyptians who reside therein).

Yeah Sudaneese Arabs.

2) Somalis
Don't know
3) Djiboutians (i.e. the people of Djibouti)
Don't know
4) Eritreans
Don't know

If they speak Arabic they are Arabs.

And really even like other races who learn Arabic (Pakistanis for instance) are Arabs but not in the technical way society sees them now. At least in my opinion.

:jazak:

assalam the countries mentioned all speak arabic if not hundred percent and they are different from the people who learn arabic from the subcontinent.

just to talk about arabs, can we really call the egyptians or the syrians arabs :D

you must have heard of a thing called arab al-ariba and arab al-mustariba
true arabs are hijaz and yemen :cheesygri
wassalam

Sunni_Student786
04-01-2006, 10:35 PM
assalam the countries mentioned all speak arabic if not hundred percent and they are different from the people who learn arabic from the subcontinent.

just to talk about arabs, can we really call the egyptians or the syrians arabs :D

you must have heard of a thing called arab al-ariba and arab al-mustariba
true arabs are hijaz and yemen :cheesygri
wassalam

I have heard of the concept of "arab al-ariba" and "arab al-mustariba", but do the groups that I asked about really fall into either of those categories? Arab al-ariba, certainly not, but "arab al-mustariba", I don't know.

Egyptians and Syrians, although not of pure "Arab" blood, have enough Arab blood in them and have an "Arabicized" enough a culture to be considered Arabs in the eyes of ethnologists and most historians. I dont know if that is the case with the Sudanese, Eritreans, Somalis, and Djiboutians.

Furthermore, even if the Egyptians and Syrians are not "Arabs" in the truest sense of the word, few Yemenis or Saudis would consider them to be "non-Arabs". Yes probably not the "purest" arabs, but a type of Arab nonethelss. But do they think the same of the groups that I mentioned in my initial post?

And I am NOT asking if they are "Arabs" in the sense that they speak Arabic, so they are Arabs. I have heard of a narration from the Prophet (peace be upon him) where he said that, but, nonetheless, it didn't change the fact that Salman al Farsi was still call "Al Farsi" (i.e. the Persian). So when I am asking about as to whether or not those peoples are "Arabs", I am asking whether these peoples are considered to be Arabs by the "Arab al Ariba", or by peoples who are considered to be Arabs by the "Arab al Ariba", by virtue of their bloodline connection with the Arabs of the Peninsula and their absorption of Arab culture and Language.

Now, given these clarifications, can someone answer my question(s) insha'allah?

abuhajira
04-01-2006, 11:21 PM
:sl:

Yeah, I remember it always used to be a fuss started at the mosque. A hadith comes to mind where Rasul Allah :s: said that one who speaks arabic is an arab.. but if you ask an arab he gives all those theories of what constitutes as an arab..and then three rounds of wallah billah and tallah! :)

Salman Al Farsi (radiallahu anhu) is Farsi because of Nisbat. Farasiyyu is Ism e Mansoob of Faras...means from Farsi.. So an Ajam who speaks arabic will also be an Arab. I will try to get the hidith info..

:ws:

Mansy
05-01-2006, 01:03 AM
Brother Pahlewan i was only joking man, :p anyway lets be a bit more serious

sudanese are definatly arabs,
about the rest i'm not sure

wassalam

Omar HH
05-01-2006, 02:14 AM
What.

Syrians are Arab!

Don't make me feel sad and depressed now.

I am Arab dang it!

Hijaz, Yemen, Sham, Egypt and Iraq I thought are the "arabs"

Remember also that `Oman used to be part of Yemen.

:jazak:

Gajji
06-01-2006, 12:32 AM
OK, this is ever so slightly off-topic, but before the early Arab Muslims (i.e. the Sahaba and their descendents) spread out from the Hijaz to other regions like North Africa, who actually lived there? Were they Arabs or some other race? Have Arabs now become the majority in these other places?

Sorry, Pahlawaan, if this is off topic!

Abu-Umar-Usman-Ali
06-01-2006, 04:23 AM
Eritrean's are majority arabs... I have a lot of eritrean friends they speak arabic... Also... during the times of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) many muslims that were oppressed by the kufars moved to ETHIOPIA, which then grew into a larger population that spread to Eritrea and Somali lands... Therefore, they have links to arabs.... I took African history class... There were tribes such as the SWAHILI ARABS who fought many wars and also USMAN DAN FODIO < who also fought JIHAD against kufars in africa... they were all linked to Arab blood lines... As Usman Dan Fodio was one of the greatest warriors in African history... So yeah, a lot of arab influence in those areas such as Somali, Egypt, Sudan, Ethipia/Eritrea...

By the way I'm speaking based on African history and what they claim as their roots... Their roots were linked to three things Traditional Africa, Christianity, and Islam... The christians migrated to areas such as South Africa and grew in large numbers... Islam migrated towards southern africa and near the seas. Muslims that migrated there also grew in large numbers ... so when you put mango and bananas with milk in a juice mixer and mix it... You can't tell the mango from teh banana but you drink it cause it taste good... Try it lol... anyhow yeah i just gave u a few names search "USMAN DAN FODIO" u'll find out more about Arabic ties.


salamalikum!

salman
06-01-2006, 07:24 AM
:sl:

Yeah, I remember it always used to be a fuss started at the mosque. A hadith comes to mind where Rasul Allah :s: said that one who speaks arabic is an arab.. but if you ask an arab he gives all those theories of what constitutes as an arab..and then three rounds of wallah billah and tallah! :)

Salman Al Farsi (radiallahu anhu) is Farsi because of Nisbat. Farasiyyu is Ism e Mansoob of Faras...means from Farsi.. So an Ajam who speaks arabic will also be an Arab. I will try to get the hidith info..

:ws:

Salamu 'Alaykum

Well... what do we mean by a person who speaks Arabic is "Arab". I mean suppose a Pakistani speaking Arabic says hes "Arab" if he wants to marry a girl of Arab lineage - marriage and suitability (kuf').... hmmm....

الحسن بن رشيق حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن بن هارون حدثنا العلاء بن سالم حدثنا قرة بن عيسى الواسطي حدثنا أبو بكر الهذلي عن مالك بن أنس عن الزهري عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن قال جاء قيس بن مطاطة إلى حلقة فيها صهيب الرومي وسلمان الفارسي وبلال الحبشي فقال هذا الأوس والخزرج قد قاموا بنصرة هذا الرجل فما بال هؤلاء فقام معاذ بن جبل فأخذ بتلابيبه ثم أتى به إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فأخبره بمقالته فقام النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم مغضبا يجر رداءه حتى دخل المسجد ثم نودي إن الصلاة جامعة فصعد المنبر فحمد الله وأثنى عليه ثم قال أما بعد أيها الناس إن الرب رب واحد والأب أب واحدوالدين دين واحد وإن العربية ليست لأحدكم بأب ولا أم إنما هي لسان فمن تكلم بالعربية فهو عربي فقام معاذ بن جبل فقال بم تأمرنا في هذا المنافق فقال دعه إلى النار فكان قيس ممن ارتد فقتل في الردة

The hadith is in Kanz Al Ummal cited in two places (#33936, #37132), and in Ibn Asakirs Tarikh from Abu Salama ibn 'Abd Ar Rahman. Imam Hindi states it is "Mursal". ( ‏(‏ابن عساكر - عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن مرسلا‏


Wasalam

Sunni_Student786
06-01-2006, 07:46 PM
Salamu 'Alaykum

Well... what do we mean by a person who speaks Arabic is "Arab". I mean suppose a Pakistani speaking Arabic says hes "Arab" if he wants to marry a girl of Arab lineage - marriage and suitability (kuf').... hmmm....

الحسن بن رشيق حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن بن هارون حدثنا العلاء بن سالم حدثنا قرة بن عيسى الواسطي حدثنا أبو بكر الهذلي عن مالك بن أنس عن الزهري عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن قال جاء قيس بن مطاطة إلى حلقة فيها صهيب الرومي وسلمان الفارسي وبلال الحبشي فقال هذا الأوس والخزرج قد قاموا بنصرة هذا الرجل فما بال هؤلاء فقام معاذ بن جبل فأخذ بتلابيبه ثم أتى به إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فأخبره بمقالته فقام النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم مغضبا يجر رداءه حتى دخل المسجد ثم نودي إن الصلاة جامعة فصعد المنبر فحمد الله وأثنى عليه ثم قال أما بعد أيها الناس إن الرب رب واحد والأب أب واحدوالدين دين واحد وإن العربية ليست لأحدكم بأب ولا أم إنما هي لسان فمن تكلم بالعربية فهو عربي فقام معاذ بن جبل فقال بم تأمرنا في هذا المنافق فقال دعه إلى النار فكان قيس ممن ارتد فقتل في الردة

The hadith is in Kanz Al Ummal cited in two places (#33936, #37132), and in Ibn Asakirs Tarikh from Abu Salama ibn 'Abd Ar Rahman. Imam Hindi states it is "Mursal". ( ‏(‏ابن عساكر - عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن مرسلا‏


Wasalam

Jazakallahu khair brother Salman!

I finally got to see what at least one Muhaddith's classification of that hadith is.

Once more, Jazakallahu khair.

Omar HH
06-01-2006, 08:17 PM
What about a Syrian - is he counted as an Arab in the Hanafi kuff?

Or is it only Yemenis and Hijazites... just wondeirg lol.

Gajji
06-01-2006, 11:37 PM
What about a Syrian - is he counted as an Arab in the Hanafi kuff?

Or is it only Yemenis and Hijazites... just wondeirg lol.
Just accept it, you're not Arab! :p

Ansari
21-01-2006, 09:03 PM
(of those countries whose "Arab" identity is rarely called into question, even if much of the inhabitants are of mixed Arab and indigenous peoples ancestry, such as is the case in Morocco, for example).
Those people in Morocco are almost all berbers (imazghen), like the people out there tell. The state is offifically arab. They say that if a Moroccan states he's an arab, he's a dumb berber. You'll notice lots of friction between arabs and berbers and nationalist Berbers despise those "Arabicized" berbers.

Perhaps some one else can state when a person is an arab and when not. And if there is a difference with an islamic definition regarding what an arab constitutes, and between a definition of today's people

Kareem
21-01-2006, 11:14 PM
there are loads of real arab morrocans, algerians and tunesians.

Abu-Umar-Usman-Ali
22-01-2006, 11:05 AM
You all make me laugh... Nationalist is as old as prostitution... All of us are linked to one another... black asian middle eastern white spanish etc... If you press the rewind button it'll all link back to Abraham then Adom & Eve... So in all reality we all come from the same dirt!!!

abdnumba1
22-01-2006, 04:04 PM
probably they decended from the arabs!

PursuitOfKnowledge
24-01-2013, 03:53 AM
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1173 (http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1173)

Nimó Ąhmed
24-01-2013, 06:19 AM
All Somalis I know consider their selves African even the Arabic speakers.
I think most Somali tribes are descendants from Arabs that were spreading the Deen except for a few Somali tribes that are pure African.

Like my tribe Isaaq.

Shiekh Isahaq Bin Ahmed was one of the Arabian Scholars that crossed the sea from Arabia to the Horn of Africa to spread Islam around 12th to 13th century

Shiekh Isaac descended from Prophet Mohammed's daughter Fatima. Hence the Shiekh belonged to the Ashraf or Sada (titles given the descendents of the prophet).

Sheikh Isaac married two local women in Somalia that left him eight sons. The descendents of the those eight sons are the what is known as Isaaq clan at the present time. However, the Shiek left other descendents in Yemen as well

The origin of Shiekh Isaac was traced back Iraq. Researcher and groups such as AlAshraf concluded beyond doubt the origin and the history of Shiekh Isahaq. This research was based on the old books and scripts as well as DNA tests carried out randumly on some his descendents

Here is the family tree of Shiekh Isahaq as found in old records and scripts



1. Isaaq

1. إسحاق

2. bin Ahmed

2. بن احمد

3. Bin Mohammed

3. بن محمد

4. Bin Hussien

4. بن حسين

5. Bin Ali

5. بن علي

6. Bin Mudhar

6. بن المطهر

7. Bin Abdalla

7. بن عبد الله

8. Bin Ayup

8. بن ايوب

9. Bin Mohammed

9. بن محمد

10. Bin Qasim

10. بن قاسم

11. Bin Ahmed

11. بن احمد

12. Bin Ali

12. بن علي

13. Bin Eisa

13. بن عيسى

14. Bin Yahya

14. بن يحيى

15. Bin Mohammed Al Taqi

15. بن محمد التقي

16. Bin Ali Al Hadi

16. بن علي الهادي

17. Bin Mohammed Al Jawad

17. بن محمدالجواد

18. Bin Ali Al Reda

18. بن علي الرضا

19. Bin Musa Al Kathim

19. موسى الكاظم

20. Bin Jafar Al Sadiq

20. بن جعفر الصادق

21. Bin Mohammed Al Baqir

21. بن محمدالباقر

22. Bin Ali Zainal Al Abiden

22. بن علي زين العابدين

23. Bin Imam Al Hussien

23. بن الامام الحسين

24. Bin Ali

24. بن على

25. Bin Abu Dalib

25. بن أبوطالب

26. Bin Abdulmuddalib

26. بن عبدالمطلب

27. Bin Abdulmanaf

27. بن عبدالمناف

28. Bin Hashim

28. بن هاشم




Reer Shiekh Isaac inhibit the major towns and cities of the northren Somalia such as Hargeisa, Berbera, Buro, and Erigavo. The total population of Isaaq clan is estimated between 2 to 3 million. The traditional way of life for this tribe is animal grazing nomads similar to all Somalian tribes. However, this tribe is also famous its trade links with Arabia and India through the history. Agriculture is also exercised in limited areas mainly in the west of Hargeisa region.

http://isaaq.webs.com/sheikhisahaq.htm

That's all I know about my tribe, but we don't speak any Arabic nor consider ourselves Arab [no offensive] but I think anyone that speaks Arabic is considered Arab. Allah knows best.