Al-Maghrib salafi? Zaytuna Sufi?

[hahmed]

asalaamualaykum warhamtullah

http://www.hahmed.com/blog/
(Jan. 22, 2006)

I wrote a small post on my blog regarding this issue of categorizing muslims as salafis and sufis and what not and mentioned this forum in it. I just would appreciate some feedback regarding what i have written and what you guys think. Please feel free to leave comments under the entry!

Jazakallah khair,
your brother in Islam

[faqir]

:salam:

Nice advice Akhi, but why don't you go and give your nasiha to Abu Ammar Yasir al-Qadhi of al-Maghrib who has implied certain sunni shuyukh are deviants, accused the Muslims of shirk, and openly attacks the Ashari/Maturidi Creed?

As for Zaytuna being sufi - nothing wrong with complimenting them in that way - keep up the good work :)

[Omar HH]

Ok all I can say is.

I was liking your article.

But Salafis are just wrong and Ahlul Bid`ah must be warned against and stopped in any way shape or form. Same with the Shi`a. Would you say that any Muslim should not be able to say "Abu Bakr is the first Khalifah and the best Sahaba no question"? Well thats why every Muslim can also say that anthropromorphism, or in not following qualified scholarship, or calling Muslim mushrik left and right, or banning people from visiting the graves of the awliyah are all innovations in the din which must be fought against.

The modern day Wahhabi Salafis are kindergartners in Islam and this is no exaggeration. So I treat them like kindergartners.

Thank you,

Omar.

[hahmed]

I never said taht I agree with salafis, or that their method is correct. (Obviously, I disagree with them for the same reasons Shaykh Nuh, or Shaykh Faraz (from Sunnipath) or even Shaykh Abdal Hakim Jackson gives in their writings).

All Im saying is that whenever a known 'salafi scholar' or what not is saying something or giving a lecture or course on a topic that is sound and based on traditional sources that we all agree upon (obviously not on disputable issues), we shouldnt be so harsh with our brothers.

anything wrong with that?

[Omar HH]

Ok I agree.

We should have adab when we respond. But I think sometimes you have to be harsh (like Shaykh Gibril) because the other side get's so harsh.

And I have all objections of taking any type of Salafi scholar's class or listening to any Salafi scholar's lecture in any way shape or form. Same with any Shi`a scholar or any Mutazila scholar etc. As Shaykh Muhammad al-Ya`qoubi said "Do not even give the deviant your ear."

And the great Maliki Shaykh Muhammad ibn Mayyarah explained in my profile - that if you want to live happy and die happy you avoid the false `Aqaid.

:jazak:

[Salim]

For the most part I agree with you hahmed. I just wanted to point out one distinction. It is one thing, and I think personally fine, to not attend someones lecture or study with them and it is quite another to insult and slander them. No one is compelled to study or learn from anyone and many people do not have enough knowledge to study with people who have some both correct and inccorrect ideas. Many people cannot distinguish what it right and what is wrong.

I personally believe however that none of us should be spending our times criticising others, especially scholars. It is enough to say they are incorrect on that issue and go no further. Scholars criticising scholars is another thing, but this is for us.

Shaykh Siraj Wahhaj was a wonderful example you pointed out. He is somewhat salafi, but is widely respected by pretty much everyone. What he has done in his life is astounding. Shaykh Abdullah Adhami on his website has a section celebrating the achievments of Siraj Wahhaj. It's a wonderful website that everyone should look at as it has lots of good material on it.

Sakeenah (http://www.sakeenah.org/index.shtml)

Anyhow, that is all just my opinion, but I don't think there is any benefit in laypeople like us criticising scholars. Just practice what you know to be true and leave the criticising for scholars.

[Kareem]

Ok I agree.

We should have adab when we respond. But I think sometimes you have to be harsh (like Shaykh Gibril) because the other side get's so harsh.

And I have all objections of taking any type of Salafi scholar's class or listening to any Salafi scholar's lecture in any way shape or form. Same with any Shi`a scholar or any Mutazila scholar etc. As Shaykh Muhammad al-Ya`qoubi said "Do not even give the deviant your ear."

And the great Maliki Shaykh Muhammad ibn Mayyarah explained in my profile - that if you want to live happy and die happy you avoid the false `Aqaid.

:jazak:
i dont know the name but there was a hanafi mutazili scholar, his fiqh books are still used, but not his work on aqidah. take whats good and leave the bad.

[Dawud AbuSulayman]

oh, ok, so you guys are Asharee,
It's funny The founder of the Asharee beleifs repented from these beleifs before he died and wrote books refuting the Asharee Aqeedah, but you all still call to it.
Funny.

[Dawud AbuSulayman]

Abu Hasan al'Ash'ariyy's Final Book 'Al-Ibaanah'
Author: Prepared by Abu 'Iyad as-Salafi
Source: Foundations of the Sunnah (Salafi Publications 1997)
Article ID : AQD060001

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The Scholars of the Salaf have exhibited an outstanding role in foiling the plans of the enemies of Islaam - in all their different sects, and the varying doubts they propagate. And that, by which the Islaamic Aqeedah was put to trial with in its very first period was but the various madhaahib and new ideas which entered it by way of philosophy and theological rhetoric.

The Mu'tazilah played a big role in distorting the texts of the Sharee'ah from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah and plotting against the Scholars of the Salaf and attacking their honour. The most famous of such plots is the trial of Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal - may Allaah have mercy upon him - who remained firm in that trial and in refuting their doubts falsifying their falsehood - he and the other Scholars of the Salaf of this Ummah, such as Imaaam Bukhaaree, ad-Daarimee, Ibn Qutaibah, Ibn Mandah and others besides them.

And Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy in the first part of his life, used to be a Mu'taziliyy since he was brought up at the hands of Abu Alee al-Jubaa'ee the Shaikh of the Mu'tazilah of Basrah in his time.

And Allaah willed goodness for Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and granted him success in taking from the Book and the Sunnah and abandoning the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah. Then he refuted the sophistry of the Mu'tazilah, exposed their falsehood, rendered futile their arguments with both textual evidence and by way of reason. His books testify to that. He then remained, for a period, speaking in certain matters of belief, with the saying of Ibn Kullaab. However, in the final stage of his life he was upon the aqeedah of the Salaf and he spoke with whatever Imaam Ahmad spoke with - may Allaah have mercy upon him - with respect to all the Attributes of Allaah. So he affirmed for Allaah whatever Allaah affirmed for himself and whatever His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) affirmed for Him in his Sunnah.

The Book 'al-Ibaanah' - Abu Hasan al-Ash'aris Last Book
And this has been recorded in his book called Al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah. However, those who ascribed themselves to the madhhab of Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy continued taking from the madhhab of Ibn Kullaab and passed it on to those who ascribed themselves to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, generation after generation. The truth, however, is what the scholars testify to, those in whose honesty, integrity and impartiality there is no doubt, that the aqeedah which Abu Hasan al'Ash'ariyy held and worshipped Allaah with, is the aqeedah which he has affirmed in his book Al-Ibaanah and that this was the last of his books in which the matter of his aqeedah was settled.

In the present time, many ascribe themselves to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and call themselves Ash'ariyyah, claiming that they are holding fast to the aqeedah he was upon, especially in the matters of the Attributes of Allaah. However, the truth is that they have not taken the aqeedah that he embraced at the end of his life and which is propounded in his two books al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah and al-Maqaalaat ul-Islaamiyyeen.

What is more strange, however is their claim that Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy wrote his book al-Ibaanah out of taqiyyah (deception) and as an attempt to outwit the Hanbalees, fearing them, for his life. It is well known that taqiyah is but nifaaq (hypocrisy) and this blameworthy characteristic is something the common Muslim seeks to be free from, then how about a Muslim scholar?

And since this slander was an oppression against him and a clear forgery against him, a number of scholars, known to be possessors of knowledge and piety embarked upon explaining the truth. So they exposed the falsehood of those lies and slanders against this esteemed scholar and explained that taqiyah and nifaaq are not the characteristics of the scholars and that Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy is far removed from that.

And everything that has come in his books al-Ibaanah and al-Maqaalaat is what he believes and worships Allaah with. He said, in al-Maqaalaat: "And with everything that they [i.e. the Ahl ul-Hadeeth] spoke with, we speak with and go towards it."

He also said in al-Maqaalaat: "The summarisation of that which the People of Hadeeth and Sunnah are upon..." and then he lists that which they were upon including therein:

"And that Allaah the Sublime and Exalted is upon His Throne just as He has said:

Ar-Rahmaan has ascended (istawaa) the Throne" [Soorah Taa Haa 20:5]

"And that He has two Hands, without asking how, just as He has said:

I created you with My (Two) Hands [Soorah Taa Haa 20:75]

and as He has said:

But [both] His Hands are outstretched" [Soorah Maa'idah 5:64]

"And they affirm both Hearing and Seeing for Him and they do not negate that from Allaah as the Mu'tazilah have negated it."

"And they affirm the ahaadeeth which have come from the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam): "Verily, Allaah descends to the lowest heaven and says: Is there anyone who seeks forgiveness" in the manner in which it has come from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam)"

"And they see the necessity of following the Salaf from the Scholars of the Religion who do not innovate into their religion that for which Allaah has given no permission."

"And they say the Qur'aan is the Speech of Allaah, it is not created."

And he affirmed all of that which the Salaf us-Saalih affirmed regarding the Attributes of Allaah and other matters of aqeedah and finished by saying: "This is a summarisation of what they [the People of the Hadeeth and the Sunnah] order with, employ and deem necessary [to believe in]. And everything that has been mentioned from their speech, we speak likewise and tend towards it."

And whoever desires more can refer to his aforementioned books al-Ibaanah and al-Maqaalaat.

As for those who have ascribed the book al-Ibaanah to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and have testified that it was his last book concerning aqeedah then they are numerous and amongst them:

al-Haafidh Ibn Asaakir in Tabyeenul Kadhabul-Muftaree (p.152) which is a refutation of al-Ahwaazee,
al-Bayhaqee in al-I'tiqaad (p.31),
Imaam adh-Dhahabee in al-Uluww (no.276) and
Ibn ul-'Imaad in Shadhraat udh-Dhahab (p.303).
Furthermore, Abu Qaasim Abdul Malik bin Eesaa bin Darbaas [2] (d. 659H) in his book, adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, mentions the People of Knowledge who have ascribed this book to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and have testified to it being his aqeedah which he embraced at the end of his life and amongst them he names:

Al-Imaam al-Haafidh Abul-Abbaas Ahmad bin Thaabit at-Turqee,
Abu Uthmaan Ismaa'eel as-Saaboonee,
Imaam ul-Qurraa Abu Alee Hasan bin Alee bin Ibraaheem al-Faarisee,
al-Imaam al-Faqeeh Abul-Fath Nasr al-Maqdisee,
al-Imaam al-Haafidh Abul-Qaasim Alee bin Hasan bin Hibatullaah ash-Shaafi'ee,
al-Faqeeh Abul-Ma'aalee Majallee,
and al-Haafidh Abu Muhammad bin Alee al-Baghdaadee.
And were it not for the fact that this is but a brief refutation, then we would have quoted the words of every single one of them, testifying to the details of the aqeedah of Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, as contained and expounded in his al-Ibaanah and its agreement with that of the Salaf us-Saalih

Notes
1. From the books I'tiqaad Ahl us-Sunnah Ashaabul-Hadeeth Sharh Jumlatu Maa Hakaahu Anhum Abu Hasan al-A'shariyy wa Qarrarahu fee Maqaalaatihi by Muhammad Abdur-Rahmaan al-Khamees and adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy of Abul-Qaasim Abdul-Malik bin Eesaa bin Darbaas.

2. Ibn Darbaas al-Qaadee Kamaal ud-Deen Abu Haamid Muhammad bin Qaadee al-Qudaat Sadr ud-Deen Abdul-Malik bin Eesaa al-Maaraanee al-Misree ash-Shaafi'ee ad-Dareer, born in the year 576H.

He said, commencing his book, adh-Dhabb an Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy:

"To proceed: Know O community of Brothers - may Allaah grant success to us and to you in the straight and upright Deen and guide us all to the Straight Path - that the book al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah, which the Imaam Abu Hasan Alee bin Ismaa'eel al-Ash'ariyy authored is the one in which his affair [his aqeedah and his position] was settled with respect to that which he held as his aqeedah and worshipped Allaah - the Sublime and Exalted - with, after his return from I'tizaal [the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah] by the Grace of Allaah and His Benevolence. And every saying [or treatise] which are ascribed to him now and which oppose that which is in al-Ibaanah, then he turned back from that and declared himself to be innocent of it in front of Allaah - the Sublime. How can it be otherwise, when he is stated in it the religion with which he worships Allaah - the Sublime - which he reports and establishes himself upon the way of the Sahaabah, the Taabi'een and the Scholars of Hadeeth, those who have passed, and the saying of Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal - may Allaah be pleased with them all. And that it [i.e. his religion] is that which the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger points to. Is it then permissible for it to be said that he turned back from that to other than it? To what exaclty, did he turn back to, and which you can see [evidently]? Did he turn back from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Prophet of Allaah, to the opposite of that which the Sahaabah, the Taabi'een and the Scholars of Hadeeth, who have passed away, were upon? And with his knowledge that that was their madhhab? He narrated this [i.e. his aqeedah in al-Ibaanah] from them and by my life, how can that which does not befit the common Muslims be ascribed to the Scholars of the Religion? Or can it be said that he was ignorant of what he was relating from the Salaf who have passed... ... this is something which a just person can never imagine and suspect, and none but an arrogant person and a profligate can hold this..." And then he continues to mention those who have affirmed the ascription of the book al-Ibaanah to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy as listed above. Refer to the book adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, checked and verified by Alee bin Muhammad bin Naasir al-Faqeehee (p.97-108)

[Karim_sunni]

We should have adab when we respond. But I think sometimes you have to be harsh (like Shaykh Gibril) because the other side get's so harsh.

And I have all objections of taking any type of Salafi scholar's class or listening to any Salafi scholar's lecture in any way shape or form. Same with any Shi`a scholar or any Mutazila scholar etc. As Shaykh Muhammad al-Ya`qoubi said "Do not even give the deviant your ear."

And the great Maliki Shaykh Muhammad ibn Mayyarah explained in my profile - that if you want to live happy and die happy you avoid the false `Aqaid.



exactly , bro

g.f haddad is doing excellent work

[Karim_sunni]

@



Abu Hasan al'Ash'ariyy's Final Book 'Al-Ibaanah'
Author: Prepared by Abu 'Iyad as-Salafi
Source: Foundations of the Sunnah (Salafi Publications 1997)
Article ID : AQD060001

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The Scholars of the Salaf have exhibited an outstanding role in foiling the plans of the enemies of Islaam - in all their different sects, and the varying doubts they propagate. And that, by which the Islaamic Aqeedah was put to trial with in its very first period was but the various madhaahib and new ideas which entered it by way of philosophy and theological rhetoric.

The Mu'tazilah played a big role in distorting the texts of the Sharee'ah from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah and plotting against the Scholars of the Salaf and attacking their honour. The most famous of such plots is the trial of Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal - may Allaah have mercy upon him - who remained firm in that trial and in refuting their doubts falsifying their falsehood - he and the other Scholars of the Salaf of this Ummah, such as Imaaam Bukhaaree, ad-Daarimee, Ibn Qutaibah, Ibn Mandah and others besides them.

And Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy in the first part of his life, used to be a Mu'taziliyy since he was brought up at the hands of Abu Alee al-Jubaa'ee the Shaikh of the Mu'tazilah of Basrah in his time.

And Allaah willed goodness for Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and granted him success in taking from the Book and the Sunnah and abandoning the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah. Then he refuted the sophistry of the Mu'tazilah, exposed their falsehood, rendered futile their arguments with both textual evidence and by way of reason. His books testify to that. He then remained, for a period, speaking in certain matters of belief, with the saying of Ibn Kullaab. However, in the final stage of his life he was upon the aqeedah of the Salaf and he spoke with whatever Imaam Ahmad spoke with - may Allaah have mercy upon him - with respect to all the Attributes of Allaah. So he affirmed for Allaah whatever Allaah affirmed for himself and whatever His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) affirmed for Him in his Sunnah.

The Book 'al-Ibaanah' - Abu Hasan al-Ash'aris Last Book
And this has been recorded in his book called Al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah. However, those who ascribed themselves to the madhhab of Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy continued taking from the madhhab of Ibn Kullaab and passed it on to those who ascribed themselves to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, generation after generation. The truth, however, is what the scholars testify to, those in whose honesty, integrity and impartiality there is no doubt, that the aqeedah which Abu Hasan al'Ash'ariyy held and worshipped Allaah with, is the aqeedah which he has affirmed in his book Al-Ibaanah and that this was the last of his books in which the matter of his aqeedah was settled.

In the present time, many ascribe themselves to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and call themselves Ash'ariyyah, claiming that they are holding fast to the aqeedah he was upon, especially in the matters of the Attributes of Allaah. However, the truth is that they have not taken the aqeedah that he embraced at the end of his life and which is propounded in his two books al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah and al-Maqaalaat ul-Islaamiyyeen.

What is more strange, however is their claim that Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy wrote his book al-Ibaanah out of taqiyyah (deception) and as an attempt to outwit the Hanbalees, fearing them, for his life. It is well known that taqiyah is but nifaaq (hypocrisy) and this blameworthy characteristic is something the common Muslim seeks to be free from, then how about a Muslim scholar?

And since this slander was an oppression against him and a clear forgery against him, a number of scholars, known to be possessors of knowledge and piety embarked upon explaining the truth. So they exposed the falsehood of those lies and slanders against this esteemed scholar and explained that taqiyah and nifaaq are not the characteristics of the scholars and that Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy is far removed from that.

And everything that has come in his books al-Ibaanah and al-Maqaalaat is what he believes and worships Allaah with. He said, in al-Maqaalaat: "And with everything that they [i.e. the Ahl ul-Hadeeth] spoke with, we speak with and go towards it."

He also said in al-Maqaalaat: "The summarisation of that which the People of Hadeeth and Sunnah are upon..." and then he lists that which they were upon including therein:

"And that Allaah the Sublime and Exalted is upon His Throne just as He has said:

Ar-Rahmaan has ascended (istawaa) the Throne" [Soorah Taa Haa 20:5]

"And that He has two Hands, without asking how, just as He has said:

I created you with My (Two) Hands [Soorah Taa Haa 20:75]

and as He has said:

But [both] His Hands are outstretched" [Soorah Maa'idah 5:64]

"And they affirm both Hearing and Seeing for Him and they do not negate that from Allaah as the Mu'tazilah have negated it."

"And they affirm the ahaadeeth which have come from the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam): "Verily, Allaah descends to the lowest heaven and says: Is there anyone who seeks forgiveness" in the manner in which it has come from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam)"

"And they see the necessity of following the Salaf from the Scholars of the Religion who do not innovate into their religion that for which Allaah has given no permission."

"And they say the Qur'aan is the Speech of Allaah, it is not created."

And he affirmed all of that which the Salaf us-Saalih affirmed regarding the Attributes of Allaah and other matters of aqeedah and finished by saying: "This is a summarisation of what they [the People of the Hadeeth and the Sunnah] order with, employ and deem necessary [to believe in]. And everything that has been mentioned from their speech, we speak likewise and tend towards it."

And whoever desires more can refer to his aforementioned books al-Ibaanah and al-Maqaalaat.

As for those who have ascribed the book al-Ibaanah to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and have testified that it was his last book concerning aqeedah then they are numerous and amongst them:

al-Haafidh Ibn Asaakir in Tabyeenul Kadhabul-Muftaree (p.152) which is a refutation of al-Ahwaazee,
al-Bayhaqee in al-I'tiqaad (p.31),
Imaam adh-Dhahabee in al-Uluww (no.276) and
Ibn ul-'Imaad in Shadhraat udh-Dhahab (p.303).
Furthermore, Abu Qaasim Abdul Malik bin Eesaa bin Darbaas [2] (d. 659H) in his book, adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, mentions the People of Knowledge who have ascribed this book to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and have testified to it being his aqeedah which he embraced at the end of his life and amongst them he names:

Al-Imaam al-Haafidh Abul-Abbaas Ahmad bin Thaabit at-Turqee,
Abu Uthmaan Ismaa'eel as-Saaboonee,
Imaam ul-Qurraa Abu Alee Hasan bin Alee bin Ibraaheem al-Faarisee,
al-Imaam al-Faqeeh Abul-Fath Nasr al-Maqdisee,
al-Imaam al-Haafidh Abul-Qaasim Alee bin Hasan bin Hibatullaah ash-Shaafi'ee,
al-Faqeeh Abul-Ma'aalee Majallee,
and al-Haafidh Abu Muhammad bin Alee al-Baghdaadee.
And were it not for the fact that this is but a brief refutation, then we would have quoted the words of every single one of them, testifying to the details of the aqeedah of Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, as contained and expounded in his al-Ibaanah and its agreement with that of the Salaf us-Saalih

Notes
1. From the books I'tiqaad Ahl us-Sunnah Ashaabul-Hadeeth Sharh Jumlatu Maa Hakaahu Anhum Abu Hasan al-A'shariyy wa Qarrarahu fee Maqaalaatihi by Muhammad Abdur-Rahmaan al-Khamees and adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy of Abul-Qaasim Abdul-Malik bin Eesaa bin Darbaas.

2. Ibn Darbaas al-Qaadee Kamaal ud-Deen Abu Haamid Muhammad bin Qaadee al-Qudaat Sadr ud-Deen Abdul-Malik bin Eesaa al-Maaraanee al-Misree ash-Shaafi'ee ad-Dareer, born in the year 576H.

He said, commencing his book, adh-Dhabb an Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy:

"To proceed: Know O community of Brothers - may Allaah grant success to us and to you in the straight and upright Deen and guide us all to the Straight Path - that the book al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah, which the Imaam Abu Hasan Alee bin Ismaa'eel al-Ash'ariyy authored is the one in which his affair [his aqeedah and his position] was settled with respect to that which he held as his aqeedah and worshipped Allaah - the Sublime and Exalted - with, after his return from I'tizaal [the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah] by the Grace of Allaah and His Benevolence. And every saying [or treatise] which are ascribed to him now and which oppose that which is in al-Ibaanah, then he turned back from that and declared himself to be innocent of it in front of Allaah - the Sublime. How can it be otherwise, when he is stated in it the religion with which he worships Allaah - the Sublime - which he reports and establishes himself upon the way of the Sahaabah, the Taabi'een and the Scholars of Hadeeth, those who have passed, and the saying of Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal - may Allaah be pleased with them all. And that it [i.e. his religion] is that which the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger points to. Is it then permissible for it to be said that he turned back from that to other than it? To what exaclty, did he turn back to, and which you can see [evidently]? Did he turn back from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Prophet of Allaah, to the opposite of that which the Sahaabah, the Taabi'een and the Scholars of Hadeeth, who have passed away, were upon? And with his knowledge that that was their madhhab? He narrated this [i.e. his aqeedah in al-Ibaanah] from them and by my life, how can that which does not befit the common Muslims be ascribed to the Scholars of the Religion? Or can it be said that he was ignorant of what he was relating from the Salaf who have passed... ... this is something which a just person can never imagine and suspect, and none but an arrogant person and a profligate can hold this..." And then he continues to mention those who have affirmed the ascription of the book al-Ibaanah to Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy as listed above. Refer to the book adh-Dhabb an Abee Hasan al-Ash'ariyy, checked and verified by Alee bin Muhammad bin Naasir al-Faqeehee (p.97-108)



soon there will be a nice book for you:


http://www.aqsapublications.com/artwork/images/taymiyya_05.gif

;)

[Kareem]

oh, ok, so you guys are Asharee,
It's funny The founder of the Asharee beleifs repented from these beleifs before he died and wrote books refuting the Asharee Aqeedah, but you all still call to it.
Funny.
sunniforum is not ashari forum, but yes we have asharis, maturidis and atharis. but yea salafis have a tendency to claim everyone that disagrees with them from the past repented.

[Karim_sunni]

yeah thats right,

they also claim Imam ghazali repented on his deathbed, because sahih bukhari was on his chest. everyone repented suddenly

[Omar HH]

oh, ok, so you guys are Asharee,
It's funny The founder of the Asharee beleifs repented from these beleifs before he died and wrote books refuting the Asharee Aqeedah, but you all still call to it.
Funny.

Thats funny you make me laugh.

Allah yahdeek.

Nobody cares what you say.

:jazak:

[Karim_sunni]

i'm really looking forward to shayk haddad's new book Omar.


http://www.aqsapublications.com/artwork/images/taymiyya_05.gif

[Sadiq]

Why do all threads have to be turned into "repeated, old, long" discussions...

The brother, stated something that was very interesting and correct in his blog (that i visit quite often), and it turned from that into refute, gf haddad, salafi pointing..etc.

Fellow members, lets keep on topic of threads. Please use the search Option to view old, archived, discussions and raise issues on "those threads".

Lets start pointing the finger at ourselves...

as the lesson of the chisti way says;

"Consider yourself to be the most inferior, so much so, that if you observe with your own eyes another indulging in the worst of vices then too you shall not despise him/her, nor shall you consider yourself nobler than him/her. On the contrary one should fear and bear in mind that it is very possible that the perpetrator of the vice may resort to sincere tawbah (repentance) and become a person of high piety while the one who had despised the sinner become ensnared (Allah forbid !) in the meshes of the nafs (self) and Shaytan and be diverted from Ibadat (worship) and obedience. One has no certainty regarding one’s end. One, therefore, has no basis for regarding another with contempt.” from
http://alchishti.wordpress.com/ of a dear habibi here.

Its not about whos right, its what is right. Please use the search option and lets do more reading, than typing. As my mother says, "once a word is out in the world, you can never get it back".

As the brother stated in his blog which i end with;

Leave the debates of such issues to real scholars and stick to purifying your hearts and working on attaining knowledge to strengthen your iman to implement it yourself and setting an example for your families and communities! And Allah knows best.


Wasallam.

[Kareem]

no need to mock or laugh. remember the adab of disagreements

[Omar HH]

no need to mock or laugh. remember the adab of disagreements

Ok your right. I am just sick of these people.

And your right you take the good and leave the bad. I am talking about the hardcore bid`i Salafis. I don't take anything from them.

But like non-Muqallid Sunnis like Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Amr Khaled, and their folk I really enjoy listening to and benefiting from.

[Karim_sunni]

Ok your right. I am just sick of these people.

And your right you take the good and leave the bad. I am talking about the hardcore bid`i Salafis. I don't take anything from them.

But like non-Muqallid Sunnis like Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Amr Khaled, and their folk I really enjoy listening to and benefiting from.



haha Omar, damn man this is funny, you say exactly what i think bro, were on the same level , also now both Maliki and interests in sufism, hmmm i should visit Omar's website more often

http://omar526.blogspot.com/

:D

[Omar HH]

haha Omar, damn man this is funny, you say exactly what i think bro, were on the same level , also now both Maliki and interests in sufism, hmmm i should visit Omar's website more often

http://omar526.blogspot.com/

:D

lol...

just start liking Arabic poetry, tea, and proverbs and we'll be set ;)

[muslim786]

lol...

just start liking Arabic poetry, tea, and proverbs and we'll be set ;)
Am I going to be invited to the wedding?

[IlyasLahoz]

Am I going to be invited to the wedding?
Ha!
nice...

[thetruth]

I've also read in the past from similar sources that Jilani, Ashari, Ghazzali, may Allah bless them, changed their ways towards the end of their lifes. What does our Ulema say about this? Do they say the sources used from places who claim this are false or what?

H.A.

[Omar HH]

I've also read in the past from similar sources that Jilani, Ashari, Ghazzali, may Allah bless them, changed their ways towards the end of their lifes. What does our Ulema say about this? Do they say the sources used from places who claim this are false or what?

H.A.

This is just some ** proported by the evil Salafi sect.

Pay no attention.

It really is funny when they say that all 3 (and Imam Nawawi) "repented" at the end of their lives - makes alot of sense doesn't it :rolleyes:.

Who cares about these Wahhabis pay them no attention. "Muhammad is not our master" some of them say - they will see...

They will see when on the Day of Judgement Allah tells Prophet :saw: to intercede and take people out of the fire and into Jannah. They will see.

Not ashamed to say: my MASTER is Muhammad :saw:.

:jazak:

[Kaaju Barfi]

:salam:

I know some people won't agree with me, i am a hard core anti-wahabi/anti-salafi person. I personally believe that the Salafi/Wahabi problem is a big one and is the greatest fitnah the Ummah has ever seen in its history. I would even say the wahabi cult was formed by schizophrenic by the name of Muhammad ibn Abdal-Wahab under the influence of a certain shaytaan whose sole aim was to demolish Islam from within. Muhammad Ibn Abdul wahab's father was a great scholar and so was his brother Sulaiman ibn Abdul Wahab. who wrote a book refuting the deviant ideas/beleifs of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab.


My two cents .....

[GenN]

Assalmu alaykum


Heres some starter reading material for you DawudAbuSulayman.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq2.htm


I know i'm simply "blind following" sheikh Nuh on, this just like your "blind following Abu 'Iyad as-Salafi" but the differnce is I know i'm blind following, as I do not have the knowledge or resources to check the original refernces in their proper context, checking the validty of the timelines, and many other things also, hence I simply blind follow Sheikh Nuh on this (+ 99% of the scholars from Al Asharis time to now)... That AL Ashari did not repudiate his asahri aqeedah...

whereas you think you now have all the evidences and are not blind following...but in reality you have only 3rd hand material to which you cannot check the refernces, context, time etc as you do not have the prerequistie knowledge or resources, hence this copy and paste jobs are actually no evidecnec at all.

So once you realise that you are actually just blind following, please blind follow the majority of this ummahs scholars, the Sunni scholars, and leave blind following the minority salafi sect so called scholarship.

was salaam.

[GenN]

sorry for taking thread off topic again.

[Kareem]

:salam:

I know some people won't agree with me, i am a hard core anti-wahabi/anti-salafi person. I personally believe that the Salafi/Wahabi problem is a big one and is the greatest fitnah the Ummah has ever seen in its history. I would even say the wahabi cult was formed by schizophrenic by the name of Muhammad ibn Abdal-Wahab under the influence of a certain shaytaan whose sole aim was to demolish Islam from within. Muhammad Ibn Abdul wahab's father was a great scholar and so was his brother Sulaiman ibn Abdul Wahab. who wrote a book refuting the deviant ideas/beleifs of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab.


My two cents .....
biggest fintnah ever?

thats a wee bit of an exageration

[Kaaju Barfi]

:salam:

Considering the damage that the pseudo-salafis and wahabis have done, i don't think so, Kareem.

[Omar HH]

Dajjal is the worst fitna ever.

:jazak:

[Kaaju Barfi]

:salam:

ignorance is the biggest fitnah. an interesting article for us to reflect on

http://www.m-a-t.org/islam2.htm

Is Syed Suhrawardy a reliable man? He seems to be reasonable and according to his biography, he has had a traditional islamic education in Pakistan. Does any one know more about this man?

[Kareem]

:salam:

Considering the damage that the pseudo-salafis and wahabis have done, i don't think so, Kareem.
i really dont think salafiyya is the biggest fitnah ever is islamic history

[Sunniya]

Thats funny you make me laugh.

Allah yahdeek.

Nobody cares what you say.

:jazak:



And I dont like your emotional disrespectful contradictory attitude.

Allah yahdeek kaman.

[Omar HH]

And I dont like your emotional disrespectful contradictory attitude.

Allah yahdeek kaman.

Ok your right.

The only thing is people's false claims have been proported so many times that it would do injustice to take such a lie seriously.

Therefore I will not even listen to his arguments, nor whatever he has to say on the matter - since I know I am right bi izn Allah.

And I thank Allah for this and ask him to keep me right instead of wavering into falsehood.

I have no garuntee that he will so thank you for the du`a.

:jazak:

[Kaaju Barfi]

Wahabbiya and Salaffiya is the biggest fitnah this ummah has faced, i dont know why Kareem has to deny that , other than for the sake of argumentation. I personally believe that the wahabbiya and salafiya founders were working for shaytaan for money i.e. they sold their religion.

[Harun_Abdul_Hakeem]

Assalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatoulahi Wa Barakatou

In My mind set if i can offer my opinion Some do say yes that salafi's are the biggest fitna this ummah has faced,yes that is tru but in a sense i would say the biggest problem our ummah has is the lack of knowledge and zeal or Tallaab to gain that knowledge,or else if we had the correct Ilm one that we place in our lifes not information like shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyad Ul Haq Said the other day in his lecture in Montreal at ICQ,Then we would kno that what they are saying is wrong and irrational,but in asense we dont cuz we lack that knowledge so we percieve that they are the biggest fitna,but in my mind trully the ummah is facing other obstacles and fitna's right now then Salaifi's,we have other demon's we must over come if we look at the Ummah in a Whole. :$

Assalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatoulahi Wa Barakatou

[Omar HH]

I think we are all getting a little heated and off topic.

Allah yahdeena kullana.

The worst fitna is the Dajjal.

After the Dajjal it is the Batinis whom if you read Imam al-Baghdadi's "Farq Baynul Firaq" he says they have misguided more people than the Dajjal, nay more people than sand on the entire earth. Yet we never see people attacking the Batinis - Imam al-Ghazali wrote an entire book about them.

What is a Batini?

A Batini is basically someone who believes that the Qur'an and Sunnah have a secret inner meaning and that we do not have to follow the outer meaning hence they claim:

1) You don't have to "fast" you can just "fast from bad thoughts" during Ramadan.
2) You don't have to do Hajj you can just do a pilgrimage to good thoughts.

Etc.

A modern day example of this is the Isma`ili sect which is still active all over the United States, Africa, Syria, Pakistan and India.

Unfortunately our Ummah pays more attention in stopping Ithna `Ashari Shi`a, and Wahhabis than these Batinis whom Imam al-Baghdadi himself who wrote a book on every single sect of Islam said that they had misguided "more than the Dajjal."

And Allah ta`ala knows best,

Omar.

[Kareem]

Wahabbiya and Salaffiya is the biggest fitnah this ummah has faced, i dont know why Kareem has to deny that , other than for the sake of argumentation. I personally believe that the wahabbiya and salafiya founders were working for shaytaan for money i.e. they sold their religion.
not just for the sake of arguement but for the sake of truth.

[abu abdul-kareem]

I personally believe that the wahabbiya and salafiya founders were working for shaytaan for money i.e. they sold their religion.

Taqillah, these are strong statements I believe you should reconsider retracting or clarifying what you mean.

[Kaaju Barfi]

:salam:

When we read the 'glorious' history of 'Shaykh' Muhammad ibn Abdal Wahab and his relationship with a certain shaytaan, one cannot help coming to the conclusion which is not different from what I had come to. May Allah forgive and overlook my overcomings if i have mis interpreted Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab's actions.

Here is some enlightening material:

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/AdobeBooks/BritishSpy.pdf

Read from page 12 , we can see how Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab's real character was.

[Dawud AbuSulayman]

All of this Kalam against salafiyyah and the salafiyoon and I STILL havent seen why people think that Salafiyyah is "the biggest fitnah ever in Islam"

Subhannallah, the Shia kurse The sahaba, worship 12 imams, slander the wife of the prophet and say that Gibreel made a mistake by going to the prophet Muhammad instead of Ali and you say that Salafiyyah is the worst fitnah?

The nation of Islam in America say that Allah is a man and that Elijah poole from chicago is the prophet of Allah and you say Salafiyyah is the biggest fitnah?

Warith Ad deen Muhammad in America says that he is the Mahdi and says that he is Isa reincarnated and interprets the Ayat where Allah says he sends a messenger to every nation. he says he is the messenger to this nation, and you say Salafiyyah is the biggest fitnah?

There are people in this ummah who worship graves and make duaa to the awliyah and beleive that they have the ability to become "one" wit Allah, who obey theor "sheikhs" to the point that they will eat their feces and let them have sex with their wives and you say SALAFIYYAH IS THE BIGGEST FITNAH???

what exactly is the fitnah of the salafis? So far, I havent seen anything convincing. Even if Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a british spy and a Shaitan and a Dajjal, what does that have to do with Salafiyyah? Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab is not the Imam of Salafiyyah, The lone Sheikh who salafis follow at all costs, He is considered a Mujadid of the sunnah, Yes, but even if he were a british spy (which I beleive is just a story), produce something from his books for me that opposes Islam (not what people say about him) but something from his actual books, with pages, reference #'s (preferrably the DarrusSallam editions , because I have those available to me to reference.

forgive me if my posts seem irritated, but I am irritated, I have been reading accusations for almost a week of coming here and NO PROOF , yet. except what people say about salafiyyah and it's scholars. In order to establish proof, you need a statement from him , in his books, to refute him in a fair manner otherwise , whatever you say is heresay, and it is rejected according to the principles of Ahlul Hadeeth.

JazakAllahu khayr

[Sunniya]

Allah guide all of us. I came to this forums to learn to come to the traditional knowledge to practice tasawwuf and remembrance of Allah. If I see that people are whole heartedly bashing insulting those who call themselves salafyun or ahlus salaf, I am going to naturally cringe because I am making a transition. I was a muslim before and I am a muslim now. Before i didnt follow a 'particular' madhab and I use to say I was salafi. Now, certain things and turns in my life has made me look into spirituality a lot more. Plus on my part open mindedness in general. I use to read Reliance of the Traveler before, as I was mostly shafi'i even before.
For those that know me in real life, I am afraid they might not accept me in the sunnah group because i was always a 'salafi' for them, so now even if i am planning to become and join the traditionalist group and considering the responses on here, I might be viewed with intense suspicion.
Where I come from, everyone was a 'sunni' muslim. Everyone was either deobandi hanafi or one who followed traditional scholars and oftentime I was isolated and ignored by the women. I dont know if i tell them I am thinking about joining them, will they continue to belittle me, ignore me. Some of the sisters were very selective in saying salam to some people and not others and if I am even telling you this, they would label me as doing what?
backbiting.
Some of this harsh attitude turns me off by all those who possess it.
With the hardcore salafi ignorant masses, the beginning students etc, I never went to their forums, because it was too much. However, I see some of the same bashing on here. I dont know what is to become of our ummah. If those who claim to be of the saved sect do not follow the highest of morals and character then I dont know if they can make such a claim.
i had always been brought up thinking that sufi people are the most humble people, the most kind people, and indeed many of the mashaikh are but their students do not exemplify such behavior. If all the dhikr in the world does not make you smile at your sister when you greet her or say salam when you see her even if she is not following your shaikh, then I think you have to revamp your intention. Nowadays, everyone is doing this because this is the "in" thing it is the cool thing. It is easy to get fired up but in real life will you withhold the test, will you have sabr of Ayyub AS or sabr in general to live up to it.
wallahu alim.
Please please throw the bigotry away.

[Karim_sunni]

also one question, why is saudi arabia called after wahab's friend ibn saud ?

IBN saud ---------------------> Saudi Arabia ?

the only country in the world, named after a family/tribe name, thats really sad .

sounds like the spy story is true, since the britisch were involved in building saudi arabia and supplied Ibn saud and the wahabis of weapons, to collapse against the sunnis

[Harun_Abdul_Hakeem]

Allah guide all of us. I came to this forums to learn to come to the traditional knowledge to practice tasawwuf and remembrance of Allah. If I see that people are whole heartedly bashing insulting those who call themselves salafyun or ahlus salaf, I am going to naturally cringe because I am making a transition. I was a muslim before and I am a muslim now. Before i didnt follow a 'particular' madhab and I use to say I was salafi. Now, certain things and turns in my life has made me look into spirituality a lot more. Plus on my part open mindedness in general. I use to read Reliance of the Traveler before, as I was mostly shafi'i even before.
For those that know me in real life, I am afraid they might not accept me in the sunnah group because i was always a 'salafi' for them, so now even if i am planning to become and join the traditionalist group and considering the responses on here, I might be viewed with intense suspicion.
Where I come from, everyone was a 'sunni' muslim. Everyone was either deobandi hanafi or one who followed traditional scholars and oftentime I was isolated and ignored by the women. I dont know if i tell them I am thinking about joining them, will they continue to belittle me, ignore me. Some of the sisters were very selective in saying salam to some people and not others and if I am even telling you this, they would label me as doing what?
backbiting.
Some of this harsh attitude turns me off by all those who possess it.
With the hardcore salafi ignorant masses, the beginning students etc, I never went to their forums, because it was too much. However, I see some of the same bashing on here. I dont know what is to become of our ummah. If those who claim to be of the saved sect do not follow the highest of morals and character then I dont know if they can make such a claim.
i had always been brought up thinking that sufi people are the most humble people, the most kind people, and indeed many of the mashaikh are but their students do not exemplify such behavior. If all the dhikr in the world does not make you smile at your sister when you greet her or say salam when you see her even if she is not following your shaikh, then I think you have to revamp your intention. Nowadays, everyone is doing this because this is the "in" thing it is the cool thing. It is easy to get fired up but in real life will you withhold the test, will you have sabr of Ayyub AS or sabr in general to live up to it.
wallahu alim.
Please please throw the bigotry away.


Trust Me I Know How U Feel Sister,Some Of Us Have Been On The Same Path Of Recklessness As I Like To Call It,But Then Allah Guided Us To The Truth In A Sense,To SOme People Will Still Remain As We Were Before,But Through This I Relized That They Are Maybe Just Narrow Minded,Because We Were All Like It Or Not Something Else Before We Came 2 Islam,I Was a Non-Muslim Sikh Not Doing Anything Good But Loads Of Currpotion & If Ur Born Muslim Then Before U Fully Came 2 Islam Or Understood It,U Were A Baby who didnt know nothing.So in the end we were all something and we were all somewere but islam brought us somewere and al humdulilah i hope it will keep us together,evan though some people say they were like this and they will remain like this,insha allah we should take that as encouragement to prove them wrong thats my mental focus when i hear a comment or remark like that.well i hoped this post helped u insha allah.Forgive me for any wrong remarks or comments i might have made on my part,it was soley form me and the shaytaan and anything good that came out of this was from Allah.