ANSWERED: Calling on other than Allah

[Abu Usama]

Salam, what is the ruling on saying things like "Ya Ali maddad" or "ya rasoolallah maddad"? I would like the answer from a deobandi perspective.

[A D I D A S]

Deobandi perspective...Hmm..
It is not jaiz to say Ya ali madad.
I hope you dont want a back up on my second line. That is waht I have heard from ulama.
What is the point of saying it anyway? Ali wont come to help.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

If it is done while one is infront of the grave of the Prophet or saint and he seeks Wasila through these words, there is no harm as stated by mufti Ibrahim Desai. However, if someone is sitting in Pakistan and saying it then it is not allowed.

Wallahu A'lam

[ilm_seeker]

Sallamu Alaikum

If it is done while one is infront of the grave of the Prophet or saint and he seeks Wasila through these words, there is no harm as stated by mufti Ibrahim Desai. However, if someone is sitting in Pakistan and saying it then it is not allowed.

Wallahu A'lam
As sallamau alaikum

Yes, but doesn't that turn the grave in to a place of worship? And how can The Prophet (SAAWS) or any of the Awlia fulfil your Dua as only Allah has the power to do that?

W alaikum as sallam

[salman]

Sallamu alaikum

No it doesnot turn the grave into a place of worship and note that the term worship has specific meanings. Reading the Quran over a grave doesnot necessitate it being a place of worship and nor does doing Wasila. Praying towards a grave or doing Sajda to it does. Secondly, they do not fulfill your Duas but merely intercede. If Allah wills your needs will be fulfilled.

Wallahu A'lam

[ilm_seeker]

Sallamu alaikum

No it doesnot turn the grave into a place of worship and note that the term worship has specific meanings. Reading the Quran over a grave doesnot necessitate it being a place of worship and nor does doing Wasila. Praying towards a grave or doing Sajda to it does. Secondly, they do not fulfill your Duas but merely intercede. If Allah wills your needs will be fulfilled.

Wallahu A'lam
As sallamu alaikum

Jazak Allah Khair. I was always a bit unsure about that.

Wa alaiakum as allam

[Fatimah]

what;s a deobandi perspective>?

[Muawiyah]

Hadhrat Faqeeh ul Hind Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi rahimahullah said in his fataawaa





" ... اگر یہ عقیدہ کرکے کہے کہ وہ دور سے سنتے ہیں بسبب علم*ِ غیب کے تو خود کفر ہے اور جو یہ عقیدہ نہیں تو کفر نہیں مگر کلمہ بمشابہ کفر ہے ... " - فتاوٰی رشیدیہ حصّہ سوم صفحہ ٦ تا ٩ بحوالہ جواھر التوحید

قبور سے اس طور پر دعا کرنا کہ اے صاحب قبر اس طرح میرا کام کر*دے تو یہ حرام اور
بالاتفاق شرک ہے اور یہ بات کہ تم میرے واسطے دعا کرؤ تو اس باب میں اختلاف ہے۔
منکرین سماع اس کو لغو و*ناجائز کہتے ہیں اور مجوزین سماع جائز جانتے ہیں اور یہی
بندہ نے پہلے بعض سائلین کے جواب میں لکھا ہے بندہ مختلف فیہا مسائل میں فیصلہ نہیں
کرتا لیکن احوط کو اختیار کرتا ہوں فقط و*اللہ تعالٰی اعلم - فتاوٰی رشیدیہ صفحہ ٤٠٧ بحوالہ ضرب المھند

" .... مگر انبیاء علیہم السلام کے سماع میں کسی کو اختلاف نہیں اسی وجہ سے ان کو
مستثنٰی کیا ہے اور دلیل جواز یہ ہے کہ فقہاء نے بعد سلام کے وقت زیارت قبر مبارک
کے شفاعت و*مغفرت کا عرض کرنا لکھا ہے پس یہ جواز کے واسطے کافی ہے - " فتاوٰی رشیدیہ صفحہ ٤٢٧ بحوالہ ضرب المھند



Aside from that "Ya Ali maddad" is one of the sha'ir of the rawafidh and "ya rasoolallah maddad" is one of the shaa'ir of those who think that Ambiyaa 'alyhimussalaam and Awliyaa rahimahumullah are mutasarrif in the affairs of the world so it would probably be better to use different wording when making ziyarah like the words which have accurred in Zubdat ul Manasik. (which I can`t find right now)

[A D I D A S]

Sallamu Alaikum

If it is done while one is infront of the grave of the Prophet or saint and he seeks Wasila through these words, there is no harm as stated by mufti Ibrahim Desai. However, if someone is sitting in Pakistan and saying it then it is not allowed.

Wallahu A'lam
Brother are you sure about the ali thing? Coz prphet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is alive in his grave whereas ali is not.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

coule brother salman provide a reference for where mufti desai had said this, and also could brother muawiyyah explain what the quote from shaykh rasheed ahmed gangohi says

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

قبور سے اس طور پر دعا کرنا کہ اے صاحب قبر اس طرح میرا کام کر*دے تو یہ حرام اور
بالاتفاق شرک ہے اور یہ بات کہ تم میرے واسطے دعا کرؤ تو اس باب میں اختلاف ہے۔
منکرین سماع اس کو لغو و*ناجائز کہتے ہیں اور مجوزین سماع جائز جانتے ہیں اور یہی
بندہ نے پہلے بعض سائلین کے جواب میں لکھا ہے بندہ مختلف فیہا مسائل میں فیصلہ نہیں
کرتا لیکن احوط کو اختیار کرتا ہوں فقط و*اللہ تعالٰی اعلم - فتاوٰی رشیدیہ صفحہ ٤٠٧ بحوالہ ضرب المھند

" .... مگر انبیاء علیہم السلام کے سماع میں کسی کو اختلاف نہیں اسی وجہ سے ان کو
مستثنٰی کیا ہے اور دلیل جواز یہ ہے کہ فقہاء نے بعد سلام کے وقت زیارت قبر مبارک
کے شفاعت و*مغفرت کا عرض کرنا لکھا ہے پس یہ جواز کے واسطے کافی ہے - " فتاوٰی رشیدیہ صفحہ ٤٢٧ بحوالہ ضرب

Rough translation:

-- To make dua at a grave like (with the wordings of): "Oh Sahib (companion) do this for me this way," is haram and Shirk, and to say to it "Make dua on my behlaf" is something on which there is ikhtilaf. Those who reject the hearing (of the dead) say it is impermissible and those who accept the hearing (of the dead) say it is permissible.....(cut short)

مگر انبیاء علیہم السلام کے سماع میں کسی کو اختلاف نہیں اسی وجہ سے ان کو
مستثنٰی کیا ہے اور دلیل جواز یہ ہے کہ فقہاء نے بعد سلام کے وقت زیارت قبر مبارک
کے شفاعت و*مغفرت کا عرض کرنا لکھا ہے پس یہ جواز کے واسطے کافی ہے - " فتاوٰی رشیدیہ صفحہ ٤٢٧ بحوالہ ضرب المھند

- But there is no difference (in the fact) that the Anbiya can hear...

... The evidence is that the Fuqaha have stated that after (saying/giving) sallams during Ziyarat of the blessed grave one should seek Shafaa and Maghfirat (forgiveness)...

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

just to clarify, is it allowed to say "ya rasoolallah help me" or not? Because you said that mufti desai said its allowed, but shaykh gangohi said its haram and shirk, but we know that imam al-busayri allowed it and practised it in the burdah?

[Muawiyah]

... If he says this {ya fulan} with the aqeedah that they hear this from afar because they {Ambiyaa 'alyhimussalaam and Awliyaa rahimahumullah} have knowledge of the unseen, then this {belief} is kufr in itself ...

Asking from graves like "Oh sahib ul-qabr do this work for me" so this is haraam and shirk by concensus. And as for saying, " Make dua for me", there is disagreement in this. Those that deny the dead hear call it useless and disallowed and those who believe that they can hear hold it to be allowed. And this is what this slave {of Allah} has written previously in answer to some questioners. This slave {of Allah} does not give decsions in questions in which there has occured disagreement {among the fuqahaa} but adopts the more cautious opinion. And Allah Ta'ala is the greater knower.

...But there is no disagreement in the hearing of the ambiyaa 'alyhimussalaam and that is why there are excepted and the evidence for this being allowed is that the fuqahaa have written of asking for dua for forgiveness and shafa'ah after salaam when making ziyarah of the blessed grave, so this is proof enough.

[Muawiyah]

sorry, answered at the same time as br Salman

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

Bro Muawiyahs translation should be relied on, mine was just a rough one.

[faqir]

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Is it permitted to call someone other than Allah for help? Is this not bordering on shirk? How about taking vows for other than Allah?



Question # q-20215545
Date Posted: 04/02/2004


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In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
There are two aspects to your question. The first with regards to seeking help directly from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and other righteous servants of Allah, and the second relates to taking a vow (nazar) for other than Allah.

Seeking help from other than Allah (istighatha)

If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam.

It is quite perfectly permissible for one to seek the help of a Prophet or a righteous person by asking him to pray to Allah on one’s behalf, or to use him as an intermediary when praying directly to Allah. Explicit narrations and implicit indications of the Qur’an fully justify this practice, and it would be wrong to condemn it as being forbidden or to include it among the various forms of polytheism (shirk). (Search for details and the various evidences on the permissibility of Tawassul, the archives on this website).

This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including:

1) Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means),

2) Istighatha (calling upon someone for help as a intermediary, through Allah’s love and concern for them),

3) Isti’ana (seeking someone’s assistance, through Allah’s granting).

When one seeks help from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or one of the righteous, the intention is to gain their intercession (shafa’a) and mediation before Allah Almighty, because of Allah’s love and concern for them.

Tawassul (supplicating Allah through a means) through a living or deceased intermediary is not the seeking of assistance from a physical body, or through a life or death; rather, it is to seek assistance through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, and due to their rank with Allah, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance.
However, if one seeks the help of a Prophet, saint or any other creation of Allah believing him to be omnipotent like Allah, then this is polytheism (shirk) and can never be considered permissible. Similarly, one believes that Allah alone is Omnipotent, but also believes that He has delegated a part of His power to an angel, a Prophet or a saint who exercises full and independent authority in that area, then this will also be considered Shirk, and thus forbidden.

The above are the two types of requests which the Qur’an forbids, and against which it warns us in the opening Surah:

“We worship you alone and only your aid we seek.” (al-Fatiha, 5)

The great late Syrian scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid (Allah have mercy on him) explains:

“As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolater who has left Islam.” (See: Reliance of the Traveller, P. 940)

Therefore, there is nothing wrong in using the Prophets, saints and the righteous as intermediaries to Allah, through any of the abovementioned means, as long as one does not believe them to have the power to benefit or harm in of them selves.

Taking vows for other than Allah

As for taking a vow for other than Allah is concerned, the books of fiqh are quite clear that this is not permissible if this ‘other’ is made the end of one’s vow. It is not permissible to take a vow in the name of anyone other than Allah Most High.

For example, a person says to his spiritual guide: “If a certain task of mine is fulfilled, I will do such and such a thing for you”, or a person goes to graves or places that are inhabited by jinns and makes certain requests over there. All these acts are unlawful (haram) and constitute shirk.

The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“Taking vows for the deceased, like many ignorant people take money, lamps, oil, etc to the graves of the saints out of reverence, is totally unlawful (haram) by consensus.”

Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) commentates on the above:

“This is unlawful due to certain reasons: Firstly because, it is taking a vow for the creation (of Allah) and taking a vow for the creation is unlawful, for it (taking a vow) is worship (ibadah) and the creation is not worshiped. Secondly, the one for whom the vow is taken is deceased and a deceased does not own anything. Thirdly, if he had the belief that the deceased has an effect in one’s affairs other than Allah, then this is disbelief.” (Radd al-Muhtar, 2, 439).

However, if the vow (nazar) was taken in the name of Allah alone, but the intention was to send the rewards of the vow to the deceased person’s soul or to feed the poor at a grave, then this is permissible.

Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“If one said: “O Allah! I take a vow in your name that if you cure me or fulfil my need, then I will feed the poor people at the grave of Imam Shafi’i….or I will purchase a mat for their Masjid or give money, etc in which there is benefit for the poor, then this is permissible. And it will not be permissible then to use these items on a wealthy person.” (ibid)

Therefore, in conclusion, if the vows taken for the saints and righteous are with the intention of showing reverence to them, and that they will accept these vows and benefit us, and if the vow is not taken in their name they will become upset, etc…then this is unlawful with the consensus of all the scholars. However, if the intention is merely to send the rewards of the vow taken for Allah to their soul, then this is permissible.

And Allah knows best


Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK

[Muawiyah]

I just found the words from Zubdat ul Manasik, they`ll answer br. Abu Usama`s question insha Allah

[Muawiyah]

Words of Salaam and intercession when making ziyarah of the blessed grave of
Rasoolullah Sallalaahu alyhi wa Sallam, from Zubdat ul Manasik of Hadhrat
Gangohi rahimahullah.

Asking intercession for yourself:





يا رسول الله اسالك الشفاعة واتوسل بك*َ الى الله في ان اموت مسلماً على مِلّتك وسنتك


And presenting salaam of someone else:





السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان ابن فلان**ٍ يستشفع بك الى ربك


Presenting salaam and intercession from the Hadhraat Shaykhayn Kareemayn Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anhuma





السلام عليكما يا ضجيعي رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم و*رفیقه و*وزيره جزاكما الله احسن الجزاء جئناكما الله نتوسل بكما الى رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم يشفع لنا و*یدعولنا ربنا ان يحيينا على ملته و*سنته و*يحشرنا في زمرته و*جميع المسلمين