Why are we buying England shirts?

[Mariah]

:salam:

Yeah everyones into the footy mode at the moment and most of us from the Uk are probably supporting England,
But some of us are going over the top with buying all england items n stuff.. well heres where i think the line needs to be drawn...

Have you ever stopped to think about the England flag? ever thought what the King Georges cross reali
represents? well its kinda stupid us wearing it or whatever coz its to do with the crusades... they gave the muslims a kick in the back and we go on wear that same flag which represented what they did..
It kinda makes us sellouts just coz of our ignorance... rather foolish i guess.

anyway that was my opinion...

well what do you think? think its ok to have items with King Georges cross? does it reali matter?

Wassalam

[salman]

sallamu alaikum

Thats a good point to bring up. I actually never thought about that. It is ignorance on ones part that he/she actually goes around wearing/promoting an object of such nature. Then again many muslims do not really give it a thought (a perfect example being me) and that is why we are where we are, at the lowest point in our history.

Now according to the Fiqhi perspective, it is probably not permissible (someone check this up) to wear this outfit, since it depicts a cross. This is because the cross' origins are linked back to the Christains; it is something unique to them. The Ulema states that imitating a non muslims in dress, action or habits is impermissible if the condition is as above (being one their distinguishing characteristics) otherwise it is permissible, as long as wearing it doesnot make others think you are a non muslim.

Wallahu A'lam

[Mossy]

We're increasingly deserting the church in favour of the pitch. Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion, and here's why. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3828767.stm)

I really don't think the author of this piece realises how far this trend goes to be honest, or takes it seriously.. Religion isn't the opiate of the masses - sport is. It ties in with the new belief system of consumerism I suppose, very clever indeed.

[Mustafa]

As salaam alaikum

The belief system may be new, but the methodology isn't. 'Bread and circus' was used by the Roman Empire in order to keep the populace docile and ignorant to what was really happening in the world. If people are satisfied with a full stomach and entertainment, they tend not to worry about anything outside of themselves. True satisfaction comes from the Remembrance of Allah, and once dhikr becomes a true reality in a Muslim's life, he no longer is attracted or attached to anything but Allah.

By the way, Mossy, what article are you quoting from?

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Omar_Farouk]

:salam:

Today we can spend £40 on a football shirt wich symbolises christianity and the crusaders, but when we are advised to keep a beard, and wear islamic clothing such as a jubba and a topee, we think twice, may Allah give us the understanding and make us realise. :insh:

[Bluestar]

I like the flag for England.

Just because at one time oppressive people represented themselves with a cross, it does not mean we should never look at a cross again. For example, if you stand up and raise your arms out, your body will look like a cross. Does that mean you should never take that position? OR you should kill yourself? *gulp* I think the sin is in the meaning attached to the cross not the cross itself.

I would just like to add: GO ENGLAND!

Salaam

ps. Hi Mariah, It's the Mariah I know right, as in the violent one?

[Mossy]

Try clicking on the quote Mustafa ;)

[Mustafa]

lol...gotcha!

[Mariah]

I like the flag for England.

Just because at one time oppressive people represented themselves with a cross, it does not mean we should never look at a cross again. For example, if you stand up and raise your arms out, your body will look like a cross. Does that mean you should never take that position? OR you should kill yourself? *gulp* I think the sin is in the meaning attached to the cross not the cross itself.

I would just like to add: GO ENGLAND!

Salaam

ps. Hi Mariah, It's the Mariah I know right, as in the violent one?

:salam:

Think your going overboard with your generalisations about not looking at the cross or our body looking like a cross etc, i in my origional post did not mention anything regarding not looking at the cross.. think youv misread my argument sis.. oh well never mind.. guess i dint make myself clear enough..

put it this way.. that flag.. this is what iv come up with on some site..



Although St. George was known in England in the 5th Century and his legend was brought back to England by stories from the 1st crusade, there is no mention of the 'Cross of St. George'. If, as I am led to believe, Richard the Lionheart (1189-1199) saw a vision of St. George with a red cross banner, I can only assume that Richard brought back the red cross.
Barry Hamblin, 1 July 2002

There is a chapter on this subject in British Flags by W.G.Perrin (1922) who was Admiralty Librarian in the early 1900's. He wrote that although St George was popular among crusaders there was no particular connection with England at that time. St George was a foreign saint and it was many years before he came to be regarded as similar in importance to the English saints Edward and Edmund.

so according to this the cross's purpose of use, before it became the England flag was solely for the Crusades, because of what they did.. now what are we doin WEARING NOT LOOKING it...

well thats my mentality and is quite similar with the april fools issue...
We have a strong Islamic history, one which shows Islam flourishing loads, but by absent mindedly saying yes miss, no miss, three bags full miss to things which the kuffar did to dehumanise muslims we are kinda just forgetting our past... they died trying to preserve Islam and then by us having that very same symbol which was to defeat them, its like who are we kidding? Do we not know our identities?

your entitiled to your own opinions and you can love the flag as much as you want,well if you want to put it as simple as possible we can also say that the England flag is just two red lines or whatever else..

up to you *shrugs* it was opinions and views that i asked for :)

wassalam

p.s err yeah i am mariah but violent??? :o im not violent :s

[Goldi]

I personally believe that this dont wear a flag because it represents this or that is rubbish.

Be proud of the country that you're living in and the country your parents immingrated to for a better life. We're all westerners and it's not changing anytime soon.

[maaz]

yeah man. i agree with goldi. although nationalism isn't hardly an islamic concept. i agree with watching sports. its fun stuff. although nowadays they've mixed fitnah with sport, via cheerleaders and commercials. but in general, i've always loved to watch hockey, i have at least 7 hockey jerseys, but at the same time i have prolly 15 jubbas and coupla topees( no turbans, i don't know how to tie them). I cant wait till the olympics, and then the world cup of hockey. i think we should relax and enjoy ourselves but know our priorities. and cheering for team is ALOT of fun. take the middle path....

[Aasiya]

I think you're going a bit over the top mariah, I war my England shirt with pride :D And it's not beacause I believe in the cross or wot the people ofthe cross did, I wear it because i support my Country in their sporting efforts. I think every act depends upon ur intention, as is said clearly in the Hadith, therefore if your intentions are good then I don't think theres a problem.

I agree with Goldi, and Bluestar makes a valid point,


Just because at one time oppressive people represented themselves with a cross, it does not mean we should never look at a cross again.I think the sin is in the meaning attached to the cross not the cross itself.

Also people say it's wrong because it is imitating the kuffar, I don't think wearing the England top symbolises the dress ofthe Kuffar, would wearing, say, an Indian Cricket t-shirt then be ok? Isn't that symbolising the dress of the kuffar too?

Mariah u say:
so according to this the cross's purpose of use, before it became the England flag was solely for the Crusades, because of what they did..

So if that was the purpose of it BEFORE it became the England flag, then that means once it became the Flag for england it was not used for that purpose, aye?

[salman]

sallamu alaikum

The muslims in the past would do whatever the Law stated. The Shariah states that one cannot wear anything which is unique to the disbelievers. The cross definitely is. Not only that but the cross is a symbol of the oppression and the wars fought by the disbelievers against Islam, the belief in the death of Jesus and other unislamic beliefs. Also, whether or not you feel you are doing so, it is a propergation of non-Islamic values.

I wonder, when Isa - peace be upon him - will come and break the cross, will he allow the wearing of shirts depicting the same image in the name of England or any other country or religion.

[Goldi]

sallamu alaikum

The muslims in the past would do whatever the Law stated. The Shariah states that one cannot wear anything which is unique to the disbelievers. The cross definitely is. Not only that but the cross is a symbol of the oppression and the wars fought by the disbelievers against Islam, the belief in the death of Jesus and other unislamic beliefs. Also, whether or not you feel you are doing so, it is a propergation of non-Islamic values.

I wonder, when Isa - peace be upon him - will come and break the cross, will he allow the wearing of shirts depicting the same image in the name of England or any other country or religion.


I disagree that the England flag solely represents christianity. Hence, I disagree with your opinion. Ill leave it at that.

[salman]

I disagree that the England flag solely represents christianity. Hence, I disagree with your opinion. Ill leave it at that.

Akhi the cross was put there for a reason, and that reason is evidently clear, unless you can provide exactly what it signifies?

Secondly brother, i am not quoting my opinion but what the Ulema have stated in regards to wearing something which is a unique symbol of the disbelievers.

Insha'Allah we will leave it at this:

"Ikhtilafu ummati rahma"

[Goldi]

Akhi the cross was put there for a reason, and that reason is evidently clear, unless you can provide exactly what it signifies?

Secondly brother, i am not quoting my opinion but what the Ulema have stated in regards to wearing something which is a unique symbol of the disbelievers.

It's a flag of England, the country.

And Ulema give opinions. Non-binding ones.

[salman]

It's a flag of England, the country.

And Ulema give opinions. Non-binding ones.

Then i guess we dont have to follow the Ulema anymore, since their opinions are non binding (although they base their rulings on the Qur'an and Sunnah), Or have i misunderstood what you meant?

I asked:

"What does the Cross on the English flag symbolise?"

[Mustafa]

As-salaam alaikum

I just wanted to add something to what was said above regarding the hadith "Actions are by intentions." According to sidi Faraz Rabbani this is related to ibadah and reward, for example if you do wudu to cool yourself off you get less (or no) reward compared to doing wudu to please Allah. He writes: " 'Verily actions are by their intentions, and one shall only have that which one intended.' [Bukhari & Muslim] The scholars explain that there is something implicit in this hadith: (Verily actions are) rewarded ( by their intentions, and one shall only have) the reward for (that which one intended)...The scholars say, “Through intentions habits become worship.” ( bi’l niyyaat tanqalibul `aadaat `ibaadaat)."

That hadith, though, can't be used to turn a haram action into a halal one (I'm not saying wearing the England shirt is haram...I don't know the answer to that). For example, if a brother strikes up a friendship with a non-mahram sister with the intention of teaching her the deen, it would still not be acceptable because the action is intrinsically haram. [Edit:unless there is evidence to the contrary - lying is haram, but deceiving the enemy on the battlefield is not, as there is a hadith related to this. But that's more to do with choosing the lesser of two evils.] And Allah knows best.

I also don't understand the point about the opinions of the ulema not being binding. If that is the case, why follow a madhab, as that is just a collection of opinions? From what I was taught, and from reading the Reliance, I understood that if two alims within your madhab give two differing opinions, one is allowed to follow either one and not be condemned. What is condemned is if there is just one opinion and then to ignore that opinion and follow your own nafs instead. Again, I may be wrong, so corrections are welcome. And Allah knows best.

In regards to imitating the kuffar, sidi Faraz writes this: Note it is not prohibited to do what the unbelievers do, unless it is something that is only done by them such that it is one of the signs of the ways of unbelievers, or if one does what they do thinking it is better than the ways of the believers, or if one does so seeking to be like them, as Ibn Abidin and others mention.

And in another fatwa (related to birthdays and imitation) he writes: However, the closer such celebration comes to the ways of the unbelievers, the more disliked it would be, especially if one seeks to imitate or be like them, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Whoever loves a people is of them.”


Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Goldi]

Then i guess we dont have to follow the Ulema anymore, since their opinions are non binding (although they base their rulings on the Qur'an and Sunnah), Or have i misunderstood what you meant?

I asked:

"What does the Cross on the English flag symbolise?"

You've misunderstood.

What does it symbolise? who cares. Suppose it symbolizes christ, or sodomy, or paganism. What is it socially accepted to be? THE FLAG OF A COUNTRY, namely, ENGLAND. It's not the Vatican's flag, christians dont use it in their rituals, they dont drape themselves in it when they are baptised, they dont wear it to church, its a flag of a country.

I don't need further explanations to make it clear. It's pretty simple.

[Bluestar]

I agree with Goldi

The flag may at one time have been used to represent a Christian country but times have changed and so has the meaning attached to it ;)

[Aasiya]

You've misunderstood.

What does it symbolise? who cares. Suppose it symbolizes christ, or sodomy, or paganism. What is it socially accepted to be? THE FLAG OF A COUNTRY, namely, ENGLAND. It's not the Vatican's flag, christians dont use it in their rituals, they dont drape themselves in it when they are baptised, they dont wear it to church, its a flag of a country.

I don't need further explanations to make it clear. It's pretty simple.

Exactly. Societal attitudes and values change and we can't stick to the past and say the flag symobolises christianity. The flag to me and many other represents England and not Christ. England is a multicultural and multi faith society which accepts other religions and does not make its rulings according to the bible, similarly their flag does not mean christianity or christ, nor does it represent or symbolise christ.

It's like for example, if you called someone a 'gay' a century ago they would be happy, if however, you did that now you would get a totally different reaction. Why? becasue society has given the word a new meaning, if it hurt their feelings it would be haram to call the person that. Similarly, attitudes and conceptions towards the flag have changed. To us, the people of England, it does not have associations with christianity, it rather has associations of ENGLAND.

About acts dependng on their intention, a point u raised Mustafa, about a guy chatting to a gal for deen.. Well i'll give u an example, that day I was in uni, and one of the library staff, a male, asked me why I wear the scarf and why a similar girl who it wore t-shirts with provacative statements. He had queries about our religion, I talked to him for a good fifteen minutes, but my intentions were good, only because i didn't want him to go away with a bad image of islam and the muslims. Now would that be a haram act on my part? I think it just depends on how u look at it. It's debatable, at the end of the day it depends on your own taqwa.


Wasalam

[Saleel]

:salam:


About acts dependng on their intention, a point u raised Mustafa, about a guy chatting to a gal for deen.. Well i'll give u an example, that day I was in uni, and one of the library staff, a male, asked me why I wear the scarf and why a similar girl who it wore t-shirts with provacative statements. He had queries about our religion, I talked to him for a good fifteen minutes, but my intentions were good, only because i didn't want him to go away with a bad image of islam and the muslims. Now would that be a haram act on my part? I think it just depends on how u look at it. It's debatable, at the end of the day it depends on your own taqwa.

I believe you have misunderstood Mustafa.

The act of talking to the opposite gender in itself is not haraam. In the situation you described it is debatelable whether it is permissible or not (and that is a different discussion altogether) but what Mustafa was getting at is something which is haraam is haraam even if your intention is "good". The only time I have heard it permissible is when one is on the verge of death but can survive if he does something which is usually haraam. I was once sitting with Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller and he gave the example of eating something haraam if no other sources of food were available. (And perhaps also the concept of "the lesser of two evils".)

But niyaah is not debateable if the act itself is haraam and the above conditions do not apply. "My intention to listen to music and dance to it is good therefore it is okay for me to do it" is not a valid statement.

I think people hide behind "intention" too much these days and use it as an excuse to walk into the boundries of haraam. Just remember, Allah swt is aware of our intentions better than we are ourselves. You might make fools out of the rest of us, but Allah swt knows all.

:salam:

[eTeacher]

I guess I will have to throw all my clothes away cause they all have a cross on it at one place or another :confused:

even my watch has a cross on it....even my shoes...oh dang....even our windows....

[Goldi]

I guess I will have to throw all my clothes away cause they all have a cross on it at one place or another :confused:

even my watch has a cross on it....even my shoes...oh dang....even our windows....

LOL.

I went to a catholic school, does that mean I never passed high school then? :(

[Ajami]

LOL.

I went to a catholic school, does that mean I never passed high school then? :(
Yes.

[suhayl]

Lol

[Saleel]

:salam:

Brothers, lets all please :insh: respect each others' opinions without making a mockery of it. Not only can this be hurtful, but we must try to conduct ourselves with correct adab :insh:.

And please remember that Allah swt knows best.

:jazak:

:salam:

[Aasiya]

:salam:

I believe you have misunderstood Mustafa.

The act of talking to the opposite gender in itself is not haraam.

But niyaah is not debateable if the act itself is haraam and the above conditions do not apply.
:salam:

sorry Mustafa sed it was haram, so I just mentioned it, anyways back to Engalnd shirt topic. I meant the topic of England shirts is debateable, not niyyah. Sorry i didnt make myself clear.

wasalam

[Mustafa]

As-salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah

I think the solution to this issue (if it's even relevant now) is simply to ask a scholar. Neither 'side' (for lack of a better term) has shown any textual evidence from the ulema to support their positions. There's a lot of "I think this..." and "I believe that..." in this thread and, as sunni Muslims, this is not acceptable. Wa Allahu Alim.

JazakhAllah, sidi Saleel for clarifying my earlier point. (My example was about friendships between genders, and my point was that intentions do not change the fiqhi position of an action. As for the example given, Allahu Alam).

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[salman]

sallamu alaikum

All i know is what Sidi faraz said:

"We have been commanded to avoid the religious symbols and imagery of other religions."

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000673.aspx

whoever says that the cross on the flag of England doesnt signify Christianity anymore has got to back it up with proof. Not, "Well it was hundreds of years ago, but i guess now it doesnt signify that, or does it?"

Note: I am not saying that i am right, but i need some sort of evidence, Insha'Allah.

[Mossy]

My apologies if this sounds facetious..

But what definition of religion are we using here?

[Aasiya]

I guess I will have to throw all my clothes away cause they all have a cross on it at one place or another :confused:

even my watch has a cross on it....even my shoes...oh dang....even our windows....

lol. thats a good point well made. this whole thing is too extreme.

ok maybe the wearing of the shirt is Disliked but you can't go as far as saying it's haram, there is a path in between, that of moderation, we have to compromise with the change of time.

Symbols are just iconic images that can be interpreted in whatever way they wish to be interpreted by each individual. E.g. a folk and knife might symbolise a place to eat to me, but to my friend it's a symbol for a kitchen. Similarly, the St. Georges cross symbolises England to me, and to some of you it symbolises Christianity. It depends on how u see things.

Likewise, the moon n star symbol, symbolises Islam to some, but to me its just a symbol which has more associations with Pakistan than it has with Islam. Symbols are interpretable. And I interpret the red cross as a badge of England, symbols don't have meanings attatched to them, u have to give ur own meaning to em.

[salman]

sallam


symbols don't have meanings attatched to them, u have to give ur own meaning to em.

So basically a person can wear a cross around his neck and give his own meaning to it?


ok maybe the wearing of the shirt is Disliked

Sis people say "Its Makruh" like theres nothing wrong with it, yet you should know Makruh is something that is despisable in Allahs eyes. Not doing a Makruh action is rewarding.

[Mustafa]

Bismillah

As-salaam alaikum

There are different levels of makruh as well. Actions that are makruh tahriman (prohibitively disliked) are also sinful.

This is not an issue of whether something is 'extreme' or not. What we as Muslims want to know is what is pleasing to Allah and what isn't. Our lives are not secular; that is, we don't divide our lives into things we do to please Allah and then things we do to please ourselves, regardless of what Allah thinks.

Our attitude and thinking should be through the lens of the Qur'an, not through the lens of our own nafs. We should all be striving to make the following verses a reality in our lives: "He has succeeded who purifies himself" (Qur'an 87:14) and "A day when wealth will not avail, nor sons, but only him who brings Allah a sound heart" (Qur'an 26:88).

I don't know Arabic, but if the last quote is an accurate translation then the fact that Allah says "only him who brings...a sound heart" should give us food for thought.

Moreover, struggling to purify ourselves creates a nur in our hearts that is more satisfying than the 'entertainments' that the non-Muslims indulge in. For those of us whose hearts recoil at the prospect of those things being taken away from us, we need to honestly ask ourselves: "Is our unhappiness for the sake of Allah or for the sake of our nafs?"

This 'Qur'anic attitude' is essential now as Allah is sending the ummah clear signs (by letting our enemies have dominance over us) that He wants us to shape up.

'Extremism' is to go beyond what Allah expects from us; it is not when we try to keep within the limits of Allah. I've heard people say that to not indulge in rib'a is 'extremism' (!).

And Allah knows best.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[ISMAIL]

Assalamu Alaikum,

just to say, what about the scotland flag

[Aasiya]

sallam

So basically a person can wear a cross around his neck and give his own meaning to it?


Why do symbols mean a certain things? It's because of societies conformed meaning of the certain symbol, society has agreed that a certain symbol symbolises something, however as society changes so do the meanings of signs, i.e. the england flag no longer holds the same meaning as it did, say, at the time of St. George.

Yes, according to Sausurre and Derrida, symbols do not have meanings attatched to them they have become to mean a certain thing only cuz of societies perceptions and consensus to their meanings. E.g. to a person 100 years ago the hockey stick sign of nike wouldn't mean nike, but now that it has been established as a logo for nike, now that society has decided and agreed that the symbol means nike, it symbolises nike now, but 100 years ago it wouldn't. We attatch our own meanings to signs.

also I did not say that makruh is a light matter, I said maybe it is disliked but not haram, i was simply stating a fact not saying what I thought of what it means to be makruh.

I shall inshallah read the other posts later, as i am rushed for time. Btw, wots happened to the look of this forum? It looked so nice when it was all dark :)

[Saleel]

Btw, wots happened to the look of this forum? It looked so nice when it was all dark :)
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1231

:salam:

[Aasiya]

Jazakallah bro :) that's much better..

[maaz]

yo goldi, you went to a catholic school? how the heck? man now you gotta start in kindergarten all over again. see, allah sends guidence anywhere, even to catholic schools........... goldi, see you at foundation..... my conclusion is that the only flag that is HALAL is the saudi arabia flag. maybe the pakistani flag is too much about celestial worship. the moon, the stars..... i dunno man, ppl used to worship them, still do via zodiac signs.........i like the saudi flag, looks sick. (sick as in good)

[Goldi]

yo goldi, you went to a catholic school? how the heck? man now you gotta start in kindergarten all over again. see, allah sends guidence anywhere, even to catholic schools........... goldi, see you at foundation..... my conclusion is that the only flag that is HALAL is the saudi arabia flag. maybe the pakistani flag is too much about celestial worship. the moon, the stars..... i dunno man, ppl used to worship them, still do via zodiac signs.........i like the saudi flag, looks sick. (sick as in good)

Lets not delve into celestial worship inshallah, it is prohibited.

See u at nugget man.iA

[ISMAIL]

Assalamu Alaikum,

No one answered my question on the scotland flag.

p.s just because i'm glaswegian :(

[eTeacher]

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would not leave anything in his house on which there was a cross but he would alter it.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5952.

My take on this topic is that if the cross represents Christianity, then it should not be worn. I think there is a big difference between wearing a necklace with a cross hanging down like many people wear and this particular flag. If someone sees a cross around a person's neck, straight away our mind comes to this conclusion that the person is a Christian. Does that same thought occur when we see the flag draped around a person's body? I don't know. Do only Christians use that flag in England? The British will have to fill us in on this one. The Danes and the Swedes also have a cross on their flags. I think it's a sign that the country which the flag represents is a Christian country. If you don't like the flag, you better move out :) The Saudi flag with the sword on it is no better. That Saudi flag would never be passed for an avatar here at Sunniforum :D because of the sword. As soon as Non-Muslims see the Saudi flag, guess what't the first thing that comes to their mind? ... Islam spread by the sword. Nice going Saudi! Thank you very much for your support!

But if a cloth or anything else has cross looking design and it does not symbolize the Christian cross, then I think it's ok.

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3661

And since Scotland is an extension of England, we will ignore Scotland :lol: Sorry Bro. Ismail......:)

[Aasiya]

My take on this topic is that if the cross represents Christianity, then it should not be worn. I think there is a big difference between wearing a necklace with a cross hanging down like many people wear and this particular flag. If someone sees a cross around a person's neck, straight away our mind comes to this conclusion that the person is a Christian. Does that same thought occur when we see the flag draped around a person's body? I don't know. Do only Christians use that flag in England? The British will have to fill us in on this one. The Danes and the Swedes also have a cross on their flags. I think it's a sign that the country which the flag represents is a Christian country. If you don't like the flag, you better move out :) The Saudi flag with the sword on it is no better. That Saudi flag would never be passed for an avatar here at Sunniforum :D because of the sword. As soon as Non-Muslims see the Saudi flag, guess what't the first thing that comes to their mind? ... Islam spread by the sword. Nice going Saudi! Thank you very much for your support!

Salamz,

Exactly. Wearing a necklace with a cross is not the same as wearing something with the English flag. Nope, not only the christians use the flag as England is a multi-faith/cultural society. The flag represents our identities as British people and not as Christians. And yes, I think wearing the Saudi Flag is bad, as not only does it have the sword but I kinda feel the Kalimah Shahadah is disrespected by wearing it on your clothes and going all sorts of places with it on.

Wasalam

[Raeesa]

Asalamu-alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu...

I havent read the entire thread.. but isnt nationalism wrong anyways?

[salman]

sallamu alaikum

"St Georges cross"

Whatever modern day interpretation people come up with now, they have to support with proof. That is what i have been askign for for the last 2 pages.

"This flag was in use during the Crusades and it was one of the national emblems of England as early as 1277. In 1497, the St. George Cross flag was flown by John and Sebastian Cabot on their voyages from England to New Foundland and the North American continent, as well as by other English explorers including Francis Drake, Sir Humphrey Gilbert and Sir Walter Raleigh."

[maaz]

yea, i agree with the saudi sword thing although i think the kalima on it is pretty sick (sick as in good), but obvoiusly shouldn't be disrespected. yo i should test bro saleel and put that as my avatar. (insert evil laughter here), whaddya mean i can't put the SAUDI flag???? what kind of islamic forum is this???? ahahha, i think bro saleel and maulana ziad's life is complicated as it is, so i wont add to their pile. but man, i'm so tempted.......

[Goldi]

yea, i agree with the saudi sword thing although i think the kalima on it is pretty sick (sick as in good), but obvoiusly shouldn't be disrespected. yo i should test bro saleel and put that as my avatar. (insert evil laughter here), whaddya mean i can't put the SAUDI flag???? what kind of islamic forum is this???? ahahha, i think bro saleel and maulana ziad's life is complicated as it is, so i wont add to their pile. but man, i'm so tempted.......

You know what I always say maaz, give in to your temptations.

[Goldi]

You know what I always say maaz, give in to your temptations.

You're right Goldi.

maaz, listen to Goldi.

[maaz]

goldi, you seem to be going a little coo coo. guy man, where'd ya dissappear today to?

[Goldi]

goldi, you seem to be going a little coo coo. guy man, where'd ya dissappear today to?

I told you I couldn't come today man. Some student johr i had to go to in Cambridge. The locals were really after me.

[maaz]

haha, goldi got suckered.....sigh, the local brothers, the backbone of the work..............man you got suckered.......

[Goldi]

haha, goldi got suckered.....sigh, the local brothers, the backbone of the work..............man you got suckered.......

astaghfirullah brother, the 'youth' are in big trouble and need guidance. how dare you say I got suckered!


(i know man, totally)

[maaz]

inshallah once you get the tapes it'll be ok. allah is the best of planners.we plan one thing, we end up elsewhere.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

maaz and goldi> dont you brothers have MSN? Or you could always post these in the empty brothers forum where us sisters cant get access to it, and you do need to fill that forum with these posts the one on one personal messages between each other... Just a suggestion, don't get offended. I apologize if I did offend you, didn't mean to as that wasn't my intention. Just wanted to pass on the info with you.

back to the topic, 'why are we buying england shirts?' hmm, because ppl want to...and because they're probably living in the uk so thats why they're buying uk shirts, and if you live in other countries you end up buying those kinds of shirts..

Allahu Alim.