Who was Abdullah ibn Saba?

[jello]

Assalamu Alaykum

I was having a discussion with some Shia brothers, and as some brothers here may know, the issue of Abdullah ibn Saba will spring up.

Anyway, the Shia claim that there is no single authentic Sunni reference of the person anywhere, so it is basically something we have made up in order to hide the truth.

But is there any authentic narration of this person ?

[Aqdas]

Assalamu 'Alaikum!

I think I have only heard or read of ibn Saba. Some of the links by Bro. Saeed Mazhar at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1204 contain reports from ibn Saba.

Wassalam

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

from my memory i believe that Ibn Saba was the one who led the rebellion against Uthman (ra) and gained approximately 10,000 followers, many of whom were unwitting followers. He positioned himself to be the upholder of the status of the ahle bayt, but in reality was not. He was also a former Jew and was condemned by Abdullah ibn Salam (ra) when he met him.

Although, i say this from memory of reading the history of islam book about 6 months ago.

[Aqdas]

Assalamu 'Alaikum!

Sorry about that. After reading Bro. Abu Usama's post, I must have got the wrong man. Jazak Allah Abu Usama.

Wassalam

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

just to add on my previous post. Many scholars have said that the shia sect is originated from Ibn Saba and this is why the shia say there is no authentic narration of this guy having even existed. It's all very clouded and the best thing to do is read the "Histpry of Islam" which looks at this. Also, as Shaykh Nuh has said, once the ahle bidah (and he was talking specifically about the shia) become entrenched in their innovation, then you should avoid them completely.

Shaykh Nuh - Dealing with the poeple of Innovation.mp3 (http://www.youtea.com/audio/030203Q-BidaShia.mp3)

[Muawiyah]

Maulana Mufti Taqi Uthmaani damat barakaatuhum has mentioned in his his "`Uloom ul-Quraan" one Abun Nasr Muhammad bin As Said al Kalbi (d. 146 AH) a Kufi shi'te forger of narrations. The muhaddith Yazeed bin Zurai' rahimahullah said regarding him, "...I have seen him myself, beating his chest and saying, "I am a Sabai, I am a Sabai"" Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb page 78 to 181 {via `Uloom ul Quraan}

Imam Ibn Habbaan rahimahullah says: "Kalbi was a sabai and was one of those who say that `Ali {Radhi Allaahu `anh} did not die and he will return to the world and fill it with justice when it will be full of injustice, whenever these people see a cloud they say "The Amir ul Mumineen is in it""
{Uloom ul-Quraan page 498-499}

[Yaum al-Hamis]

Anyway, the Shia claim that there is no single authentic Sunni reference of the person anywhere, so it is basically something we have made up in order to hide the truth.

But is there any authentic narration of this person ?

I also want to ask this question!

[Isa al-Maliki]

:salam:
It seems like the whole Ibn Saba issue is overrated. Personally i have not found so strong evidence as to believe the story in its totality. A Ibn Saba probably existed, but other then that there doesn't seem to exist much reliable material. It's important to understand that there was one Shiat-e-'Ali during the time of the Prophet:saw: and during the time of Hadhrat 'Ali's :anhu: Khilafa. This Shi'a was not created by anyone but was made up of the supporters and close companions of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib :anhu:. And then of course the people who claimed to follow Amirul Mu'mineen :anhu: but did not do so.

[Saad]

Assalam o 'alaykum,

Existence of 'Abdullah ibn Saba is both accepted by Sunnis, Shias and the Westerner historians. Today some Shias try their best to even deny his existence, let alone the role he played in the foundation of Shiahism. He is to Shiahism, what Saint Paul is to Christianity.

1. It says in Anwar al-N'umaniyyah, a Shia book,

'Abdullah Ibn-i-Saba was the first who declared the faith in Imamat and that Sayyiduna 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is the true God (Na’uzubillah).

(Anwar al-N'umaniyyah, 2:234 - Published Iran)
http://www.kr-hcy.com/references/shia/070.shtml

2. The name of 'Abdullah bin Saba figures in the most reliable book of Shias on Isma ur-Rijal, entitled Rijal-i-Kashshi and it is related in it from Imam Jafar Sadiq (may Allah have mercy on him) that Ibn Saba believed in the divinity of Sayyiduna 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), and, ultimately, he was burnt alive at his command. About 'Abdullah bin Saba, Rijal-e-Kashshi says,

"Many knowledgeable people have stated that 'Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew who had accepted Islam and showed great devotion for Sayyiduna 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). As a Jew, he used to exaggerated the personality of Joshua, the son of Nun, and the Wasi of Moses. After becoming a Muslim he began to exalt the personality of Sayyiduna 'Ali much beyond the due limit, and he was the first person to declare that it was obligatory to believe in the Imamat of Sayyiduna 'Ali, and completely dissociated himself form his enemies and he openly opposed them and denounced them as infidels". (Rijal-i-Kashi, p.71)

3. The earliest historian Tabri has sketched out the details in these words,

"'Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew and lived in Sana. His mother was called Sauda. He embraced Islam during the period of Sayyiduna Uthman. he roamed through the Muslim cities and tried to seduce the Muslims from the straight path. He launched his diabolical campaign from Hijaz and then visited Basra, Kufa and Syria. None of the Syrians cooperated with him. On the contrary, they drove him out of Syria. Thus he moved over to Egypt and settled down there permanently. He started drumming into the minds of the Egyptians that it was strange they believed in the return of Christ and denied the return of Sayyiduna Muhammad [peace be upon him]. God himself had declared. Therefore he has a better claim to return to the world in comparison with Christ. He fabricated the concept of the 'return' or resurrection and the Egyptians turned in into a hot debating issue."

4. Hafiz Ibn Kathir (may Allah have mercy on him) and Hafiz Ibn Athir (may Allah have mercy on him) have commented on it on similar lines and 'Allamaj Ibn Khaldun (may Allah have mercy on him) has also written about it,

"Abdullah bin Saba, who was popularly known as Ibn Sauda, was a Jew. He had left his country during the tenure of Sayyiduna 'Uthman but he had not embraced Islam from the core of his heart. When he was honked out of Basra, he left for Kufa from where he made a bee - line for Syria. The Syrians also whipped him out of their country and he left for Egypt. He made Sayyiduna 'Uthman (may Allah have mercy on him) the special butt of his critical remarks and secretly invited people to institute the Khilafat of the Ahl-i-Bay't. He pressed upon people to launch the campaign and he spared no opportunity to criticize the rulers. Some of the people openly sided with him. They had come from different cities and therefore they kept up their links through correspondence. Khalid bin Maljim, Saudan bin Hamran and Kinana bin Basher supported the campaign launched by 'Abdullah bin Saba. They had also persuaded 'Ammar not to return to Madina. 'Ammar was one of those people who had openly lambasted Sayyiduna Uthman (may Allah have mercy on him) for first turning Sayyiduna Abu Zar (may Allah have mercy on him) out of Syria into Madinah and then for pushing him out of Madinah towards Abzah, though, under the circumstances, the action of 'Uthman was justified. Abu Zar (may Allah have mercy on him), out of the intensity of his piety and austerity, used to force people to lead their lives on similar lines and to learn to face the hardships of life. He persuaded people to stock for themselves not more than a day's ration. He also illustrate ed with reasoning the undesirability of hoarding gold and silver. Ibn Saba used to instigate Abu Zar (may Allah have mercy on him) against Sayyiduna Muawiyyah by stressing that he supported the distribution of goods among the people. Abu Zar (may Allah have mercy on him) started condemning Muawiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him). Muawiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) coaxed him a little and told him: I'll also harp on the same turn that all goods belong to Allah."

5. Hafiz ibn Hajr (may Allah have mercy on him) has related on the authority of Tarikh Abi Asakir,

"He belonged to Yemen. He was a Jew, but he had donned the guise of Islam and roamed through the Muslim cities to lead the Muslims astray and dissuade them from the obedience of their Imams and to sow dissension among them. He also visited Damascus with this end in view". (Tarikh Damishq, 7:430)

6. 'Allamah Asfaraini (may Allah have mercy on him) has also commented on it in a similar vein,

"Ibn Sauda was a Jew who had donned the gown of Islam to addle the faith of the Muslims".

7. Abu Muhammad Hassan bin Musa has unraveled these secrets. He is the earliest Shiah historian who has given an account of the Shiah sects. He is one of the most famous Shiah of the third century A.H. He writes,

"Sabais are the companions of 'Abdullah bin Saba. 'Abdullah bin Saba made faces at Sayyiduna Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and other companions (may Allah be pleased with them) of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and disaffiliated himself from them and he imputed his acts to the command of 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). When 'Ali caught hold of him and asked him about it, he confessed to it. After his confession, he ordered him to be executed. On hearing the order, [quite a few people] made a humble submission to 'Ali:O Amir al-Muminin! You have ordered the execution of a person who professes your friendship and the love of your Ahl al-Bay't. 'Ali complied with the submission and exiled him to Madain."

8. The famous Shia biographer Istrabadi says,

"Abdullah bin Saba claimed that 'Ali is Allah and he is his Prophet. When the news reached the Amir al-Muminin, he sent for him and asked him about it. He owned it and insisted that he is really the one [who is the referee of his claim]. The Amir al-Muminin said: The devil has seduced you. Therefore you should repent at once. But he refused to repent and he put him behind the bars for three days. When he did not repent even after three days, he burned him alive".

9. Shaykh 'Abdul Qadir Jaylani Baghdadi (may Allah have mercy on him) says,

"The followers of 'Abdullah bin Saba are called Sabains. Ibn Saba relied on exaggeration about the status of Sayyiduna 'Ali and claimed that he was a prophet. Then, relying on further exaggeration he claimed that he was God and he invited a party of the Kufi rebels to adopt these beliefs. When the news reached 'Ali, he had some of these people thrown into two pits of fire, as has been hinted at by a poet ."

10. All the Shiah scholars have given an account of Ibn Saba, his views and beliefs and his party ; Sayyid Qummi [who died in 301H.], Sheykh Ta'ifah Tusi, Tastri in Qamus al-Rijal, Abbas Qummi in Tuhfat al-Ahbab, Khu Ansari in Raudhat al-Jannat, Sabhani in Nasikh al-Tawarikh and the author of Rawdhat al-Safa, have all mentioned him and his party".

11. 'Allamah Shahrastani (may Allah have mercy on him) writes under the heading of Sabaism,

"Sabais are the followers of 'Abdullah bin Saba who had told Sayyiduna 'Ali: you are you i.e., you are God, but he had extradited him to Madain The historians suggest that he was actually a Jew, but he had tacked on to himself the label of Islam. During the Jewish phase, he used to claim that Sayyiduna Y'osha bin Nun was the executor of Sayyiduna Moses."

12. Ibn 'Asakar has cited a tradition of Sayyiduna Jabir (may Allah be pleased with him) in his history,

"When the oath of allegiance was taken at the hand of 'Ali and he delivered his address, 'Abdullah bin Saba stood up and said: you are "Dabat al-Ardh." (Tarikh Dimishq)

13. 'Allamah Baghdadi has touched the issue in his book Al-Firq Bayn al-Firq. Similarly, Isfaraini in his book Kitab al-Tabsir and Ibn Hazm in Al-Fasl have also mentioned Ibn Saba.

14. Famous Shia scholar Nau Bakhti writes,

"It is known as the Sabai sect because 'Abdullah bin Saba was its ring leader." [Khandan-i-Nau-Bakhti, p.275]

15. Historian Professor P.K Hitti writes,

"The enigmatic 'Abdullah ibn Saba who was converter ed into Islam...embraced 'Ali with his excessive veneration..." (History of the Arabs, p.248 - London)

16. Famous historian Dwight M. Donaldon writes,

"'Abdullah ibn Saba had traveled widely throughout the Empire, as Tabari says, "seeking to lead the Moslems into error...Another of his teachings that was more immediately, influential was that every Prophet has a wasi and that 'Ali was the wasi of Muhammed..." (The Sheit Religion of Islam, Part 6 p.41)

17. Historian Dr. J. N. Hollister writes,

"['Abdullah ibn Saba] He was the native of San'a in Yemen...He opened a campaign of behalf of 'Ali suggesting that Abu Bakar, 'Umar, and 'Usman were usurpers..." (Shias of Hind p.15)

18. Famous historian Dr. Walter C. Klein writes,

"'Abdullah ibn Saba had hailed Ali with the words, "Thou art Thou."...

(Al-Ibanah al-Usul al-Diyanah, p.7-8)

19 Historian Professor Nicholson writes,

"Now the Shi'ite theory of Divine Right certainly harmonized with Persian ideas, ...'Abdullah ibn Saba...went from place to place, seeking to lead Moslems into error..." (The History of the Arabs, p.215)

20. Famous historian and former governor of U.P, India, William Moore writes,

"...Ibn Saba, a Jew from the South of Arabia...he became the setter forth of strange and startling doctrines...'Ali was his legate, 'Usmsn was a usurper..." (Al-Khilafat, Us ka Uruj, Inhitat aur Zawaal, p.217)

21. The “Jewish Encyclopedia” says,

ABDALLAH IBN SABA
By : Hartwig Hirschfeld

Jew of Yemen, Arabia, of the seventh century, who settled in Medina and embraced Islam. Having adversely criticized Calif Othman's administration, he was banished from the town. Thence he went to Egypt, where he founded an antiothmanian sect, to promote the interests of Ali. On account of his learning he obtained great influence there, and formulated the doctrine that, just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him, Mohammed's vizier was Ali, who had therefore been kept out of the califate by deceit. Othman had no legal claim whatever to the califate; and the general dissatisfaction with his government greatly contributed to the spread of Abdallah's teachings. Tradition relates that when Ali had assumed power, Abdallah ascribed divine honors to him by addressing him with the words, "Thou art Thou!" Thereupon Ali banished him to Madain. After Ali's assassination Abdallah is said to have taught that Ali was not dead but alive, and had never been killed; that a part of the Deity was hidden in him; and that after a certain time he would return to fill the earth with justice. Till then the divine character of Ali was to remain hidden in the imams, who temporarily filled his place. It is easy to see that the whole idea rests on that of the Messiah in combination with the legend of Elijah the prophet. The attribution of divine honors to Ali was probably but a later development, and was fostered by the circumstance that in the Koran Allah is often styled "Al-Ali" [The Most High].

Bibliography: Shahrastani Al-Milal, pp. 132 et seq. (in Haarbrücken’s translation, i. 200-201); Weil, Gesch. der Chalifen, i. 173-174, 209, 259.H. Hir.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=189&letter=A&search=abdallah%20ibn%20saba

[Isa al-Maliki]

:bism:
:salam:

Indeed interesting. How reliable are the narrations though?
And as you probably know, orientalists don't examine narrations in a way acceptable according to Islamic standards.

Do you have an reference for that which you quote Ibn Khaldun?


"Abdullah bin Saba, who was popularly known as Ibn Sauda, was a Jew. He had left his country during the tenure of Hadhrat Uthman but he had not embraced Islam from the core of his heart. When he was honked out of Basra, he left for Kufa from where he made a bee - line for Syria. The Syrians also whipped him out of their country and he left for Egypt. He made Hadhrat Uthman [r.a] the special butt of his critical remarks and secretly invited people to institute the Khilafat of the Ahl-i-Bait. He pressed upon people to launch the campaign and he spared no opportunity to criticize the rulers. Some of the people openly sided with him. They had come from different cities and therefore they kept up their links through correspondence. Khalid bin Maljim, Saudan bin Hamran and Kinana bin Basher supported the campaign launched by Abdullah bin Saba. They had also persuaded Ammar not to return to Madina. Ammar was one of those people who had openly lambasted Hadhrat Uthman[r.a] for first turning Hadhrat Abu Zar [r.a] out of Syria into Madina and then for pushing him out of Madina towards Abzah, though, under the circumstances, the action of Hadhrat Uthman [r.a] was justified. Hadhrat Abu Zar[r.a] , out of the intensity of his piety and austerity, used to force people to lead their lives on similar lines and to learn to face the hardships of life. He persuaded people to stock for themselves not more than a day's ration. He also illustrate ed with reasoning the undesirability of hoarding gold and silver. Ibn Saba used to instigate Hadhrat Abu Zar [r.a] against Hadhrat Muawiyah by stressing that he supported the distribution of goods among the people. Hadhrat Abu Zar [r.a] started condemning Hadhrat Muawiyah[r.a] . Hadhrat Muawiyah [r.a] coaxed him a little and told him : I'll also harp on the same turn that all goods belong to Allah."

[Saad]

:ws:

A. I have only quoted few orientalists, but also shown it from authentic ShiaH and Sunni books, the role of 'Abdullah ibn Saba. Usually the orientalists favor Shiahism and if 'Abdullah ibn Saba was a fairy tale, so many of the orientalists would not have mentioned him. Even a blind person can't deny the role Ibn Saba played in the origins of Shiahism.

B. The quote of 'Allamah ibn Khuldoon was taken from Shia'hs and Shiahism, there Genesis and Evolution, by Allamah Ehsan Elahi Zahir Shahid. He was the author of many books on Shiahs and their history, and later on he was killed by the Shias and was burred in Madinah. Also its mentioned in 'Abdullah ibn Saba, Tarikh kay Aiyne Main, by Hakim Faiz Alam Siddiqui. Shah Abdul 'Aziz Dahlawi (may Allah have mercy on him) has also written in details about Ibn Saba in his magnum opus called Tuhfa Ithna Ashariyyah.

And to add to the above list:

22. And it is narrated from Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him),

"hAbdullah ibn Saba was a Jewish and he [supposedly] accepted Islam during the time of Sayyiduna 'Usman (may Allah have mercy on him) and he urged the people of Egypt to kill 'Usman (may Allah have mercy on him) and he would show much love for 'Ali (may Allah have mercy on him). He was a khabis from inside and his only mission was to create fitnah among the Muslims." (Musnad Imam-i-A'zam, p.158)


عبد اللّه بن سبا كان يهوديا فاسلم ايام عثمان وهوالذى حمل اهل مصر على قتل عثمان واظهر
الميل الى على وكان خبيث الباطن غرض الفساد بين المسلمين

23. Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jaylani (may Allah have mercy on him) says in Ghunyat al-Talibin,

"Sabain sect are attributed towards 'Abdullah ibn Saba and they said 'Ali is alive and will come back before Qiyamat."


واما لسبائية فمنسوبة الى عبداللّه بن سبا من دعوهم ان عليا لم يمت وانه يرجع قبل يوم القيامة

Scan:


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/sabaia-rawafid.jpg

[Isa al-Maliki]

As-Salaamu Alaikum,

Thanks for the information akhi fillah. If it's not a problem for you i would appreaciate some more quotes. Not that i doubt the reliability but it's always nice to have some references whenever the issue might come up. If you don't feel like doing that, thanks for what you have provided so far sidi.

JazakAllah Wassalaam :cheesygri

[Saad]

Assalam o 'alaykum,

24. Famous Shia scholar 'Allamah Kashi narrates in his book from one of the Shiah Imam Abu 'Abdullah (may Allah have mercy on him),

"May Allah curse 'Abdullah ibn Saba, he said that 'Ali is God. But 'Ali was a servant of Allah."


لعن اللّه عبداللّه بن سبا انه ادعو الربوية فى امير المؤمنين عبدا طالباً

(Rijal-i-Kashi, p.100)

(Qamus al-Rijal, 5:46)

[Saad]

Assalam o 'alaykum,

25. Allamah Shahrastani (may Allah have mercy on him) writes:

"'Abdullah ibn Saba...was the first person who said that Imamat of 'Ali (may Allah have mercy on him) is proven from nas." (Al-Milal wa al-Nahal, 1:174)


اصحاب عبداللّه بن سبا٠٠٠ وهو اول من اظهر القول بالنص بامامة على كرم اللّه وجهه

26. Saad Bin 'Abdullah al-Ash'ari Al-Qummi said:

"Sabians are companions of 'Abdullah Ibn saba, …… 'Abdullah bin Saba, was the first who slandered Abu Bakr, 'Omar, 'Othman, and the Companions and disowned them." (Al-Maqalat wal-Firaq, p.20)

27. Imam Shah Waliullah (may Allah have mercy on him) has also written in details about Ibn Saba in his book Izalat al-Khifa;.

[ALIJAN1001]

The “Jewish Encyclopedia” says:
ABDALLAH IBN SABA
By : Hartwig Hirschfeld
A Jew of Yemen, Arabia, of the seventh century, who settled in Medina and embraced Islam. Having adversely criticized Calif Othman’s administration, he was banished from the town. Thence he went to Egypt, where he founded an antiothmanian sect, to promote the interests of Ali. On account of his learning he obtained great influence there, and formulated the doctrine that, just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him, Mohammed’s vizier was Ali, who had therefore been kept out of the califate by deceit. Othman had no legal claim whatever to the califate; and the general dissatisfaction with his government greatly contributed to the spread of Abdallah’s teachings. Tradition relates that when Ali had assumed power, Abdallah ascribed divine honors to him by addressing him with the words, “Thou art Thou!” Thereupon Ali banished him to Madain. After Ali’s assassination Abdallah is said to have taught that Ali was not dead but alive, and had never been killed; that a part of the Deity was hidden in him; and that after a certain time he would return to fill the earth with justice. Till then the divine character of Ali was to remain hidden in the imams, who temporarily filled his place. It is easy to see that the whole idea rests on that of the Messiah in combination with the legend of Elijah the prophet. The attribution of divine honors to Ali was probably but a later development, and was fostered by the circumstance that in the Koran Allah is often styled “Al-Ali” (The Most High).
Bibliography: Shatrastani al-Milal, pp. 132 et seq. (in Haarbrücken’s translation, i. 200-201);
Weil, Gesch. der Chalifen, i. 173-174, 209, 259.H. Hir.
Source: JewishEncyclopedia,
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=189&letter=A

[ALIJAN1001]

want more about abdullah bin saba, iran america and israel secrate relationship must visit

http://ahlehaq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=272&p=2515#p2515
http://ahlehaq.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=11
http://universal-ama-scholarship.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

[al_mumin]

Aslaaam..

I only joined yesterday am so far very surprised with Khanbaba's posts. They are very good to read and i call them a learning curve.. Mashallah this brother says it as it is. Allah has given him the wisdom to put people in their places.

I dont care about sects (fitnas) as long as you recognise HAQ.

Asalaam

[ibnuidrees]

to qoute our own sharee sources and historians is moot because at the very onset they deny all our sources claming them to b fabricated. hence i would go with the brother who qouted there own books in identifing abdullah bin saba. even that they might deny based on taqiyyah. hence arguing with them is not unlike banging ones head on a wall.

[zinc]

:ws:

A. I have only quoted few orientalists, but also shown it from authentic Shia and Sunni books, the role of Abdullah ibn Saba. Usually the orientalists favour Shiaism and if Abdullah ibn Saba was a fairy tale, so many of the orientalists would not have mentioned him. Even a blind person can't deny the role ibn Saba played in the origions of Shiaism.

B. The qoute of Allamah ibn Khuldoon was taken from Shia's and Shiaism, there Genesis and Evolution, by Allamah Ehsan Elahi Zaheer shaheed. He was the author of many books on Shias and their history, and later on he was killed by the Shias and was burried in Medina. Also its mentioned in Abdullah ibn Saba, Tareekh kay Aiyne Main , by Hakeem Faiz Alam Siddiqui. Hazrat Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlvi [r.h] has also written in details about ibn Saba in his magnum opus called Tuhfa Isna Ashariya.


And to add to the above list:


22. And it is narrated from Imam Abu Hanifa [r.a]:

"Abdullah ibn Saba was a Jewish and he [supposedly] accepted Islam during the time of Hazrat Usman [r.a] and he urged the people of Egypt to kill Hazrat Usman [r.a] and he would show musch love for Hazrat Ali [r.a]. He was a khabees from inside and his only mission was to create fitna among the Muslims."

عبد اللّه بن سبا كان يهوديا فاسلم ايام عثمان وهوالذى
حمل اهل مصر على قتل عثمان واظهر
الميل الى على وكان خبيث الباطن غرض الفساد بين المسلمين

[Musnad Imam-e-Azam page 158]


23. Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jailani [r.h] says:

"Sabain sect are attributed towards Abdullah ibn Saba and they said Hazrat Ali [r.a] is alive and will come back before Qiyamat."

واما لسبائية فمنسوبة الى عبداللّه بن سبا من دعوهم ان عليا لم يمت وانه يرجع قبل يوم القيامة

[Ghunyat al-Talibeen]


and more can be provided.

“The reason for those great Ulema to report everything shows their honesty and trustworthiness and greatness. They reported even if it goes against their own belief as in the case of imam ibn Jarir Tabari.

His tafseer nagates things that he has reported in Tarikh.

Some Ulema either not paying special attention or relying on those before them blindly such as "some scholars have said that" etc as is the case with many reports you will find in our currentt discussion.

This abdullah bin Saba's existence, actually, that is another flawed focus. If we are claiming that he did such and such then we should 'prove' such and such.

I have read extensively about abd allah bin Saba from original sources from their first appearance in third/fourth century in Tabari to those who did not mention any chain?

The image in Tabari of abdullah bin Saba is of a powerful man that single handedly he manages to destabilise and overthrows Hazrat Osman al-Ghani's rule and mesmerises the great and old sahaba Hazrat abu Zar Ghaffari and the seventh muslim in islam Hazrat Ammar Yasir that they were greatly influnced by him.

The role of ibn Saba as depicted by reports in Tabari is such that all of sudden the guy comes in the times of Hazrat Usman al-Ghani and eventually becomes responsible for the end of the caliphate of Hazrat Usman bin Affan.

In terms of causality a black/white simple mechanism to explain away the downfall.

When ibn Saba has been given such a crucial role in downfall of the third Caliph then by historical necessity others before or contemporary of Tabari, atleaset, must have given an account of abdullah bin Saba's pivotal role but we find that Imam Tabari (d. 310 AH) reporting from saif bin Omer,(unanimously, a liar and fabricator according to sunnis as well the three others from his chain) along with other factors highlights this cause via saif bin omer yet other contemporary historians such as Ibn Saad (d. 230 AH)in tabaqaat and Baladuri (d. 297 AH)in ansab al-ashraf do not mention this character whilst reporting on the downfall or end of Hazrat Usman's caliphate! it is things of this nature and mouth of a fabricator that has led researchers deny the role atleast as presented by saif bin umer.

Dr. Taha Hussain the Egyptian sunni author, for example, in his al fitan al kubra has denied the existence of abdullah bin Saba on account of such reasons of both text and testimony.

Not to mention the 'invention' of some fictitious Sahaba by Saif bin Omer as we will elucidate from muhaddiseen that no such Sahabi exists other than from what Saif says?

If you remove Saif bin Omer from the equation of abdullah bin Saba then a different account of ibn Saba emerges.

Saif's ibn Saba emerges in time of Hazrat Usman(RA) and without Saif'e reports ibn Saba emerges in times of Hazrat Imam Ali (RA)...that alone should be sufficient for a historian.

However, Saif's ibn Saba is the originator of shia sect but other than Saif, ibn Saba is calls “ Imam Ali GOD”...now, do you know Ismailis, Zaidis, Isna Asharis that call Imam Ali GOD?

Moreover, ibn Saba from other than Saif, was killed by Imam Ali etc.

1. السري this first reporter was siri bin ismaelkufi or siri bin asim died in 258. both were 'fabricators and liars' see, (tehdheeb al-tehdheeb V3, Page46. tarikh al khateeb V9 P193, mizal al-itidal V1 P37, lisna al-mizan V3 P13.)

2. Shuaib bin ibrahim al-kufi: this reporter is majhool/unknown. see (mizal al-itidal V1 P447, lisna al-mizan V3 P145)

3. Saif bin Omer: this reporter reports fabrications and attributes them to trustworthy people. see (mizan al-itidal V1 P438, tehdheeb al-tehdheeb, V4 P295)

4. Yazeed faq'asi: unknown reporter and there absolutely no mention of him in any books of reporters.
A lot more could be said and analysed but it is sufficient to say that consistency is key pillar we must hold onto otherwise kama tudeeno tudaan. You may reap what you sow.

Shia are also guilty of making use of reports when it suits them like our brothers and this cycle will continue. Another thing is that there is no mention of ibn Saba in our hadith literature such Sihah Sitta whereas they fill in gaps for other historical happenings!

Actually, there are contradictions between Saif's accounts of Islamic history and that which is reported in other sources, for instance, Sahih Bukhari.

Dr. Abdul Aziz Hulabi, chair of Islamic History at King Saud University, KSA.

Dr. Husayn Atwan, in an direct way, but explicit enough.
Those have completey rejected the entire existence of Ibn Sab'a.

Scholars like Al Arabi At-Tabbani have exposed that his role was "much smaller and insignificant than worth mentioning".

Since all the Salaf of the historians, Hadith scholars, narrators, did not mention Ibn Sa'ba before the sudden appearance of Sayf bin Amr.

That tells you something.

Furthermore, the Islamic historians, while narrating Sayf's narrations, have ALWAYS concluded otherwise.


In the book called 'man hum as-shia' by a salafi callled Ahmed Jawadu, published by Dar al-Ameer.

It is a refutation of Shia isna Asharis. ( page 46), he gives a list of sunni scholars of late that have denied the existence or details about abdullah bin Saba with regards to originator of Shia isna Asharis.

1. dr. taha hussain in al-fitn al-kubra
2. dr. ali sami an-nishar in al-fikr al-falsafi fil islam
3. dr. hamid hanafi daud in at-tashuo zahira tabiya fi itar ad-dawa al-islamia
4. dr. mohammed kamil hussain in adab misr al-fatimiya
5. abdul aziz al-halabi in his book abudullah bin saba
6. ustaz hasan bin farhan al-maliki has written many articles about his denial.
7. dr. jawad ali in his article of the name abdullah bin saba, issue 6 of almajma alilmi.
8. dr. abdullah samarai in his book al-ghulu wa alfiraq alghaliya fil hidarat alislamiya.

Then he goes on to give a list shia scholars.

Although admits that abdullah bin Saba has no mention in Sihah Sitta or the Matun Araba( four principle texts of shia) but gives a reference from Bukhari on page 37 that indirectly it proves that Hazrat Imam Ali burned the followers of abdullah bin Saba as we see in history!”


Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

[dbzclips]

salam, a few weeks ago, i wrote a long post (took me almost an hour) analyzing every claim about abdullah ibn saba, then proved that he didn't exist

i got an email saying that this thread was replied to (because i subscribed to it)

come to find out, my post was deleted!!

this is dishonest, and deleting my post refuting the myth of abdullah ibn saba (who was invented by sayf ibn umr) does not reflect the actions of a muslim

hiding the truth like this only confirms my belief that shi'ism is the correct path that that many elements of sunnism is full of conspiracies and half-truths

i can't be bothered to write that long post again, so i ask you to read the following articles, to prove that abdullah ibn saba didn't even shi'ism:
http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter10/1.html
http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter10/2.html
http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter10/3.html
http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter10/4.html
http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter10/5.html

please note: the above articles are only for those who actually wish to learn. those who wish to remain ignorant, like the wahabi nasibi who deleted my post, can keep on playing. you will be held accountable for your actions on the Day of Judgment. I pray that i never hide truths like some have

and for those of you not involved with this, i apologize that you had to read this

peace be upon those who follow the right guidance

EDIT: replace "************" with al-islamDOTorg

[alaramma2004]

Shia has notting to do with Abdullahi bn Saba. Why can you not go to the begining of Islam and see where Shia come from?

[babu01]

Thank you khanbaba. May allah bless you.

[khansaab]

thankx very much zinc. may God bless u.

[Saad]

Assalam o alaykum,

Famous Shia mujtahid and favorite of Khomeni, Allamah Majlisi writes,



وذكر (2) بعض أهل العلم أن عبد الله بن سبا كان يهوديا فأسلم ووالى عليا عليه السلام وكان يقول وهو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون وصي موسى بالغلو فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله في علي عليه السلام مثل ذلك. وكان أول (3) من أشهر بالقول بفرض إمامة علي عليه السلام وأظهر البراءة من أعدائه وكاشف مخالفيه وأكفرهم (4)، فمن ههنا قال من خالف الشيعة: أصل التشيع والرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية.

Some scholars have asserted that Ibn Saba was a Jew who accepted Islam and started voicing his opinion of the wilayah divine appointment of Sayyiduna 'Ali. While a Jew, he propounded the exaggerated notion that Yusha ibn Nun was divinely appointed to succeed Sayyiduna Musa, he thus adopted a similar stance with regard to Sayyiduna 'Ali in relation to the Holy Prophet. He was the first to subscribe to the belief of Imamah, and he openly abused his enemies [the first three Caliphs, etc.] and branded them as infidels. Thus our opponents say 'the origin of Shi'ahs and Rawafid is based on Judaism."

(Bihar al-Anwar, 25:287)

[brunlea]

Assalam o alaykum,

Famous Shia mujtahid and favorite of Khomeni, Allamah Majlisi writes,

Hahaha.

You like to beleive a lot of **** dont you.

Seriously, people make up so much things about the shia its unbeleivable. But the shai dont seem to do the same about other sects. Why is this?

I find it really odd. Why the need to attack the shia in the way of lies? They dont attack and make up false things about other sects.

Its a shame that so many people have black hearts.

[Talhah]

Assalam o alaykum,

Famous Shia mujtahid and favorite of Khomeni, Allamah Majlisi writes,

salaam

masha-allah nice quotes! jazakallah hazrat!

wassalaam

[sky_blue]

Hahaha.

You like to beleive a lot of **** dont you.

Seriously, people make up so much things about the shia its unbeleivable. But the shai dont seem to do the same about other sects. Why is this?

I find it really odd. Why the need to attack the shia in the way of lies? They dont attack and make up false things about other sects.

Its a shame that so many people have black hearts.

I think shias already have done too much comic of the religion of Prophet Muhammad pbuh...You are saying they dont attack and make up false things about other sects,,,,this thing is really funny...Brother Saad gave good information about Abdullah ibn Saba from both shia and sunni references..very nice

[a_muslim]

:salam:

Shia has notting to do with Abdullahi bn Saba. Why can you not go to the begining of Islam and see where Shia come from?

hahahahahaha!!! what world are u livin in man!!!!

[qwerty88]

begining... what begining... shiaism came AFTER the prophet AS went from the world.

[kamals]

Anything that I say in here that is worthy of critique I welcome it, it is possible I am misunderstanding many things.

You asked about Abdullah ibn Saba.

I do not know if anyone mentioned this yet, but you may find yourself wanting to read al-'Awasim min al-Qawasim, by the great Maliki faqih and near-mujtahid Qadi Abu Bakr Ibn Arabi, translated into English as Defense Against Disaster by Madinah Press - a house I believe to be associated with the Murabitun, and who have out out some other rather useful books.

They have made this book available for free in pdf form, it is easily found, but those unable to find it are welcome to message me for a copy, I also advise simply buying the hardbound copy because frankly, e-books have a permanence kinda resembling the little tracks moths leave, when they graze along a snowbank.

It is a comprehensive history of the civil wars and political instability in the fitan al-kubra, that which engulfed the early Sahaba and two generations after them. It absolves the Sahabah from blame and shows how they were simply manipulated by well funded and organized clandestine figures from among the second generation, chief amongst these is the Abdullah Ibn Saba of which we discuss.

The book has more than the ring of truth to it, it has been accepted by many a Sunni scholars, and I consider it necessary reading for a modern Muslim student.

Because, and this is a critical point to understand, and I implore you to consider it well. The very mechanisms and machinations outlined in this book can be seen throughout the history of the Ummah up until the present day.

So, you wanna know how easy it is to organize political conspiracies so byzantine in their complexity as to befuddle the best generation of this Ummah?

Then read this book.

The same dajjalic (and I use this word deliberately) patterns can be found in multiple incidents throughout history beyond this book. Recognizing the general outlines of how an entire generation of the best of the Ummah, the most spiritually enlightened, and understanding, of people who saw the blessed Prophet in the flesh and learned directly from him.

This book show how this group were confused by the most murky of dark organizations is important. Frankly similar things have happened throughout history amongst the nations of the kufar as well as in Prophetic communities but none so clearly historically documented, before the present day, as this one. It frankly reads much like the 19th century “Proofs of a Conspiracy” dealing with the clandestine forces behind the french revolution – except Qadi Ibn Arabi documents things in a far more rigorous way.

One yearns for a similar treatment of the fitnahs of this Ummah in the late 19th and early 20th century, for no one has treated this topic with the rigor it deserves.

Read it, and weep. It moved my heart. Maybe it will move yours too.

Look, those shia brothers you speak of bark up a dangerous tree. A rather large percentage of their historiography is demonstrably weak, their scholars often quote from narrators of the most dubious reputation, knowingly. So, they should look into their own affairs first.

History works differently from Hadith. In matters of Tarikh – general matters of history and historiography – our scholars deal with narrations having a lower probability of veracity than sacred scripture. And yet, realize that demonstrative rules still apply, and have been applied by the scholars pursuing sciences of history.

These rules concern the weighing of witness accounts, chains of their narration and transmission of specific narrations and texts, gauging the probability of fraud and memory failure, the likelihood of the occurrence of an incident as judged on the broader context as already known, and so on, and so forth.

The fact that a narration is quoted does not mean we believe it uncritically, it is a probability. Some people have a problem with probabilities and like things to be black and white, well it doesn't work that way. A good deal of history is redacted, corrupted in a dajjalic fashion, consists of truths partially quoted by sincere honest error or malice of intent as to give a misleading impression, and more.

We weigh probabilities.

It is highly probable that Abdullah Ibn Saba existed. The shia debating this are really making themselves look silly.

This is sad, they should just acknowledge the probable fact that he lived, and that he played a pivotal and organizing role in this fitnah, and later attached himself as a subversive element to the wings of the partisans of Amir al-Mumineen and Bab ul-Ilm Ali Ibn Abi Talib.

In so doing Abdullah ibn Saba corrupted the hearts of many, and formed the seed of corruption that would reemerge through the history of the Shiatul Ali in the form of Ghulat extremism.

The fitnah is not understandable without looking at his role, he fits like a perfect key into the events. There are things about the matter that can only make sense if Abdullah ibn Saba is looked at as an element.

History writers obeyed specific rules. Many writers in the genre of history were not sloppy, they knew well what they were doing, to a far greater degree than their critics today. And Qadi Abu Bakr was a faqih, a Qadi, one who knew these usuls and furu' and rules of transmission of knowledge and how to weigh such knowledge inside and out, the man's greatness as a scholar is without question and he was all but a mutahid.

The mere fact that historical writings included weak narrations is not a criticism. Many critics frankly ignore the fact that weak narrations have an important role to play, they may be cited for the sake of clarity, to reinforce stronger arguments, to show the mere possibility of something having occurred, and so on.

Weak, or da'if, does not mean inauthentic or false. A false narration is forged and thus mawdu' – a weak narration has some probability of truthfulness especially in conjunction with stronger supporting narrations.

The over all allowable margins of error in historical writings and research are broader than those in matters pertaining to aqida and fiqh because these later two affect the future disposition of our souls in a post-mortem state and also affect the substantive integrity of our faith and practice.

My understanding is this;

-There is a considerable body of interrelated narrations that collectively point to the existence of the individual known as Abdullah ibn Saba.

- These narrations outline a most pernicious conspiracy surrounding him and certain confederates, who collectively instigated events leading to the attempted assassination of Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr, thereby eventually leading to the blockade of the House of Amir al-Mumineen Uthman ibn Affan(ra), and from there leading to the most horrific and vile of acts, his assassination at the hands of confused discontents, of whom Ibn Abu Bakr (ra) was initially one before his honor and blood was saved by a timely admonition by Uthman(ra) prior to his tragic murder.

- Thus many misunderstandings emerged between mutually sincere parties regarding how best to prosecute perpetrators of this horrific crime, which led to the splintering of parties which led to the Battle of the Camel, and the communal bloodshed that dominated the rest of that blessed generation.

-Abdullah ibn Saba had a clear hand in all of these events as a subversive and covert influence, often working through hired agents, fomenting discontent in others and thus gaining their allegiance as sincere agents.

-These narrations are treated in a comprehensive way in Qadi Abu Bakar Ibn al-Arabi's work, Defense Against Disaster, and his synthesis of events is highly likely.
Even if some specific details can be questioned, the overall design he outlines is dire.

-Abdullah Ibn Saba, to my mind, was most probably a historical figure, there will always be some element of uncertainty regarding him. But it is a mistake to discount his existence or role completely.

Questions about the adab expected on this forum due to past rebukes from administrators over slips of my tongue that I though insignificant keeps me from stating some matters in stronger terms.

I will say this - the shia who complain about Sunni historiography on this issue are mostly being partisan, doctrinaire, and following the leads of others instead of looking at the evidence for their own eyes and justly weighing the facts, and with all due respect to them as my sisters and brothers in Islam, mostly just being silly.

As you read the book, Defense Against Disaster, you will find yourself wondering how some of these issues could have been hidden from our view for so long. How so many well meaning teachers in this Ummah could have suppressed such knowledge or been unaware of it. You may find yourself amazed and astonished and wanting to find out more. This is a good state.

Also we need to be precise, if you condemn and curse the shia in general then you condemn and curse the rightous among the early shiatul Ali who simply followed the Ahl ul-Bayt as a political affiliation and held the aqida of the Ahl ul-Sunnah.

Up until Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (ra) there was a clear substantive wing of thee Shia movement who were guided correctly - it is only after his death that the ghulat tendencies among them increased.

Brother running around irresponsibly condemning the Shia as a group miss this fact and thus fall into the possibility of condemning men far better than they are.

We should think well about our words.

[Ahmad_shakeel]

:salam:

interesting discussion on abdullah ibn saba - founder of shiaism here at

http://ansar.org/english/sabaa.htm

[kamals]

I accept the existence and role of Abdullah ibn Saba, and in fact I consider him to have been a dajjal (perhaps in a minor sense)

But calling him the founder of shiaism is not accurate and borders on dishonest. Was the the founder of Zaydi shiaism? Was he the founder of any number of moderate Alid groups who simply followed the first 11 Shia Imams, Imams who most Sunnis agree were actually ahl ul-Sunnah?

People need to be more precise about their words when discussing these topics, and Allah knows best. There is no unified monolithic "shiaism" - there are groups and currents from among the early Shia community whose thought and ideology were manipulated by Abdullah ibn saba, these mostly evolved into the ghullat sects that have plagued the Ummah. It is highly possible and likely he had a lingering influence on 1ver Ithnan ul-Ashir Shiaism (e.g. the "jafaris") however calling the man the founder of Shiaism is simply not true on the face.

Rhetorical slips and a tendency not to be exact in our words is something that the enemies of the Ahl ul-sunnah do take advantage of, and it is something that contributes to greater fitnah.
We should be careful.

Wa salam.

[TripolySunni]

Many Claim that Abdullah bin Saba is only mentioned in the History of Tabari and that other historians took the narrations from him...well No, you see Tabari wrote his history 300 years after Hijrah However Al thakafi who wrote the book "Al Gharat" also mentions Abdullah ibn Saba, and this guy wrote his history around 250 years after hijrah and he died in 283 hijri, this is also in his history:
(دخل عمرو بن الحمد وحجر بن عدي وحبة العوفي والحارث الاعور وعبد الله بن سبأ على أمير المؤمنين………..)[الغارات ص302]
"Amro bin al hamd, Hajar bin Uday, Habbah al Awfy, Al harith al A'awar and ABDULLAh IBN SABA all entered on the Ameer al Mumineen..." (Al gharat 302).

Al Nawbakhty was alive before or During Tabari's life and he writes:
a Sabaism are the first to calims of Ali's Imamah, and they said it's from Allah. they are the companions of Abdullah Ibn Saba which was the first to rejects Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Sahaba. and Ibn Saba calimed that he had been ordered that from Ali. Then, Ali asked him about it and he confessed. then Ali ordered the execution of Ibn Saba.
(Feraq Al-Shia page 19-20)

Also Al Kashshi, al tusi, Al Helli, al Qummi, Al Khawansary, Al namaqany, Al Mirza, al testeri All write narrations about Ibn Saba and that he was the first to show enmity & hate towards the first three caliphs, here's a sample:
from "Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih" one of the main four Shiite books written by Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn 'Ali ibn Babawaih al-Qummi, commonly known as Ibn Babawaih or Al-Shaykh al-Saduq who died in 381 hijri:
"and Ali said: when somone ends his pray, he have to rise his hand, and then Abdullah Ibn Saba said, for what ? isn't Allah in every where..."


Al nashi'i al akbar الناشيء الأكبر who died in 293 hijri also writes in Masa'el al imamah Page 22-23 :
عن ابن سبأ وطائفته ما يلي :" وفرقة زعموا أن عليا - رضي الله عنه - حي لم يمت وأنه لا يموت حتى يسوق العرب بعصاه ، وهؤلاء هم السبئية أصحاب عبد الله بن سبأ ، وكان عبد الله بن سبأ رجلا من أهل صنعاء يهوديا ، وسكن المدائن ...."
About ibn Saba and his followers: " A group claimed that Ali RAA is alive and will not die until he drives the Arabs away with his stick, those are the Saba'ite followers of Abdullah Ibn Saba. This Man was from sana'a (yemen) and was a Jew who lived in Mada'en.

Al Qummi who died in 301 hijri said that Abdullah Ibn Saba was the first to show hatred and enmity for the first three Caliphs and he disassociated himself from them and claimed that ali ordered it (Al Qummi, al Maqalat wal Firaq P20).

Al Tusi (460Hijri) said that Ibn Saba returned to kufr and showed ghulu (Tahtheeb al ahkam 2/322)

Al helli who died in 740 Hijri and wrote the first shiite books about the science of Rijal/Hadith, he said that Ibn Saba is Weak so you can't narrate from him, As for the Shiite Zaidi scholar Ibn al mutaraddi (died 840 hijri) he said that ibn Saba was the first to announce the News of Imamah/Wilayah of Ali to the people.

As for Majlisi and his Biharu'l Anwar here are some locationes where he mentions Abdullah Ibn Saba:
Part/Page:
2/217
10/107
25/262
25/286 (three narrations)
25/287
25/343
33/566
41/214
42/146
85/318
93/308

here's a link to Al Majlisi's book bihar al Anwar if we wanna verify, let's take the first one (2/217):
http://www.kadamya.com/hashemya33/n3.html/2.htm

Arabic text:
كش : سعد ، عن محمد بن خالد الطيالسي ، عن ابن أبي نجران ، عن ابن
سنان قال : قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام : إنا أهل بيت صادقون لانخلو من كذاب يكذب علينا
ويسقط صدقنا بكذبه علينا عند الناس ، كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله أصدق البرية لهجة وكان
مسيلمة يكذب عليه ، وكان أميرالمؤمنين عليه السلام أصدق من برأالله من بعد رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله
وكان الذي يكذب عليه ويعمل في تكذيب صدقه بما يفتري عليه من الكذب عبدالله
ابن سبا لعنه الله

Translation: Kish: Sa'ed from muhammad bin Khaled al tayalisi from ibn Abu Najran from Ibn Sinan: Imam Abu abdullah Said: we ahlulBayt are truthful but there are liars who attribute false sayings to us to misguide the people (So True hehe) , the prophet PBUH was truthful but Musaylama the liar attributed lies to him, Ameer Ali RAA was most truthful person after the prophet PBUH but he who attributed Lies to him was the cursed Abdullah Ibn Saba*

Note by the Author of the book regarding "Abdullah Ibbn Saba" on same page(217):
( هامش ص 217 ) ( 1 ) روى الكشى في ص 70 روايات كثيرة تدل على ذمه ولعنه . وكل من ترجمه من الشيعة لعنوه
وأبرؤوا من مقالته الباطلة في أميرالمؤمنين عليه السلام ، وهذا هو الذى استتابه أميرالمؤمنين عليه السلام
ثلاثة أيام فلم يتب فأحرقه بالنار .

Translation of note: "Al Kashshi in page 70 narrates plenty of hadiths about cursing Ibn Saba, and all those Shiite scholars who put his name in thier books of Hadith had cursed him as well because of his false sayings about the Ameer of believers Ali RAA, this is the man whom Ali RAA had asked to repent for three days but he didn't so Ali burned Him with fire."

As for the guy called "dbzClips", well Mr,Dragon Ball do you see "Syf ibn Umr" in your chain of Narrators above? hehe you don't thus We can easily prove ibn Saba exists from your own books as you just saw.

On the same Page I saw another interesting Hadith i'll translate it so you can have a laugh at those funny shiite scholars:

ل : الطالقاني ، عن الجلودي ، عن محمدبن زكريا ، عن جعفر بن محمد بن
عمارة قال : سمعت جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام يقول : ثلاثة كانوا يكذبون على رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله
أبوهريرة ، وأنس بن مالك ، وامرأة .
بيان : يعني عائشة .

Translation: " Al taliqani from al Jouloudi from muhammad bin Zakariah from Jaa'afar bin muhammad bin Ammar: i heard Ja'afar al Sadiq PBUH say: Three used to attribute lies to the prophet PBUH, Abu Hurairah, Anas Bin Malik, and a Woman.
note on bottom of Page: He Means Aisha." (bihar al anwar 2/217).

Funny thing is the Shiites used to narrate sayings about imamah from Abu huraira RAA but when they saw that he narrated 36,000 Hadiths for the Mainstream muslims they stopped attributing lies to him and started calling him a Liar hehe.


Some Twelver Shiite sources proving the existence of ibn Saba:

و من المصادر الشيعية التي تؤكد شخصية بن سبأ:
1 - رسالة الإرجاء للحسن بن محمد بن الحنفية وقد رواها عن الثقات من الرجال عند الشيعة 0 وهذه الرسالة مخطوطة في دار الكتب الظاهرية في آخر كتاب الإيمان لمحمد بن يحيى العدني ( مجموع 104 ) 0 وانظر تاريخ التراث العربي ( 1 / 210 ) 0
2 - كتاب الغارات للثقفي الأصفهاني وهو ومطبوع انجمن آثار ملي إيران 0
3 - كتاب المقالات والفرق للأشعري القمي وهو مطبوع في إيران سنة 1963 م 0
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6 - رجال الطوسي لأبي جعفر الطوسي 0 ط / النجف 1381 هـ / نشر محمد كاظم الكتبي 0
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8 - الرجال للحلي 0 ط / طهران 1311 هـ / وطبعة النجف 1961 م 0
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11 - قاموس الرجال للتستري 0 منشورات مركز نشر الكتاب طهران 1382 هـ0
12 - ( روضة الصفا ) تاريخ عند الشيعة معتمد بالفارسية ج 2 / ص 292 طبعة إيران
13 - دائرة المعارف المسماة بـــ ( مقتبس الأثر ومجدد مادثر ) للأعلمي الحائري 0 ط / 1388 هـ بالمطبعة العلمية / قم 0
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15 - حل الإشكال لابن طاووس .
16 - الرجال لابن داود .
17- التحرير الطاووس للعاملي .
18 - مجمع الرجال للقهبائي المؤلف سنة 1016 هـ
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20 - جامع الرواة للأردبيلي المؤلف سنة 1100 هـ
21 – موسوعة البحار للمجلسي .

Salam

[Saad]

Assalam o 'alaykum,

Imam Shah ‘Abd al-Aziz Dahlawi (may Allah have mercy on him) has discussed the schemes of ‘Abdullah ibn Saba in great detail in his magnum opus, Tuhfah Ithna 'Ashariyyah. Son of Imam Sayyid 'Alusi has translated and abridged it into Arabic.

He writes that ‘Abdullah ibn Saba was a Jew from Yemen and he divided his activates into three different levels depending on the people he was dealing with; hence three different groups emerged through his efforts.

1. At first he claimed the love for Ahl al-Bay't and this was his ploy to gain the sympathies of Muslims. Once he was successful in this he started to claim that Sayyiduna 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was the most superior after the Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). At this point he had attracted a good number of followers. He also forged many narrations in the virtues of Sayyiduna 'Ali.

Now this is what present day Zaydis hold to. So it is perfectly fine to say that ‘Abdullah ibn Saba was also the founder of Zaydi Shias. These are also known as Tafdilis.

2. Once he was successful in this, he chose a certain number of his followers, those close to him, and started to brainwash them that Sayyiduna 'Ali was the first Caliph appointed by the Holy Prophet. He told them that it was the Companions (Sahabah) who after the demise of Holy Prophet went against his instructions and usurped the right of Sayyiduna 'Ali. He was the first one to misinterpret the incident that happened overFadak and used that as a proof to spread hatred of the Companions. He also made sure to tell his followers that never to ascribe these teachings to him if asked; disassociate from him in public because his purpose is to inform the truth and not fame or power.

Present day Ithna ‘Ashariyyah (Twelvers) belong to this second group. They are also known as Sabbiyah or Tabarriyah.

3. After this ploy was also successful, he went a step further and selected a certain number of his very close associates and told that that I am about to tell a very sensitive secret. He made them promise that this information will be kept secret. He started off by telling karamat of Sayyiduna 'Ali and through this he convinced them of Uluhiyyat of Sayyiduna 'Ali; that Sayyiduna 'Ali is in fact God but has come in the form of a human.

I believe present day 'Alawis fall under this category. These are known as Ghullat.

Shah 'Abd al-Aziz concludes that 'Abdullah ibn Saba is indeed the founder of above mentioned three groups of Shias. Every single Shia group will fall under one of the above three categories.

As far as the Shia Awla, those were actually Ahl al-Sunnah. They were known as Shia Awla because they sided with Sayyiduna 'Ali during the differences that arose among various Companions due to the schemes of 'Abdullah ibn Saba. They had all the beliefs of Ahl al-Sunnah like affirming the superiority of Shaykhayn (may Allah be pleased with them) over Sayyiduna Ali. So it obvious that when it is said, ‘Abdullah ibn Saba is the founder of Shiaism', Shiah Awla are not being referred to. In our time, Shia Awla are referred to as Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamah and this title is not used anymore for any given group.

[caravan of martyrs]

although abdullah ibn saba is a shaytaan he must of been very intelligent. how did he single handly devise a whole new religion and back it up with quran,hadith albeit fabricated and misinterpreted. how was this even allowed to happen.

[a_muslim]

although abdullah ibn saba is a shaytaan he must of been very intelligent. how did he single handly devise a whole new religion and back it up with quran,hadith albeit fabricated and misinterpreted. how was this even allowed to happen.
:salam:

He didn't.
There were obviously other idiots like him and then the great fitnahs that took place obviously only made it worse and helped these fools get influence and spread. Then obviously, now that this Saba'i sect was founded, other people came along later on who helped there corrupted idiology spread, right up until today with the shi'te iran and all these idiotic rafidi preachers whose job is to do just what their preprocessors did - curse the Sahabah and spread turmoil among the Muslims.

[mohammadfarhan]

I saw many rafida’s saying: Abdullah ibn saba is actually the character built up by ahle-sunnah to support the false claims against rafidi shia’s!

But lets see what shia books & there ulema’s said about this man i.e. abdullah ibn saba?

Here are some sahih traditions in shia books & opinion of the ulema regarding the jew abdullah ibn saba:

These are the three Saheeh (with 7 different sahih isnaads) hadeeth regarding Ibn Saba:

حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.

Hishaam bin Salim, who said that he heard it from Imam Aboo `Abd Allaah (AS) when he told that `Abd Allaah bin Saba called (to people) the divinity of Imaam `Alee (AS). Upon that ‘Alee ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire.”

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 108, hadeeth # 171

حدثني محمد بن قولويه قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى عن علي بن مهزيار عن فضالة بن أيوب الأزدي عن أبان بن عثمان قال سمعت أبا عبد الله (ع) يقول لعن الله عبد الله بن سبإ إنه ادعى الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين (ع) و كان و الله أمير المؤمنين (ع) عبدا لله طائعا الويل لمن كذب علينا و إن قوما يقولون فينا ما لا نقوله في أنفسنا نبرأ إلى الله منهم نبرأ إلى الله منهم.

I heard Aboo ‘Abd Allaah(as) saying: ‘May Allah curse Abdallah bin Saba’, he claimed a divineship for Amirul-Mu’mineen (Ali) [as]. By Allah, Amierul-Mu’mineen [as] was volunterily the slave of Allah. Woe to him who lie about us, for there are people who say about us what we don’t say about ourselves, we clear ourselves to Allah from them, we clear ourselves to Allah from them’.”

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 108, hadeeth # 172

و بهذا الإسناد عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير. و أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن أبيه و الحسين بن سعيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال قال علي بن الحسين (ع) لعن الله من كذب علينا إني ذكرت عبد الله بن سبإ فقامت كل شعرة في جسدي لقد ادعى أمرا عظيما ما له لعنه الله كان علي (ع) و الله عبدا لله صالحا أخو رسول الله (ص) ما نال الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته لله و لرسوله و ما نال رسول الله (ص) الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته.

‘May the curse of Allah be upon those who tell lies about us. I mentioned Abdullah Ibn Saba and each hair in my body stood up, Allah cursed him. Ali was, by Allah, a proper servant of Allah, the brother of the Messenger of Allah . He did not earn the graciousness/honor from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah did not earn the honor from Allah except with his obedience to Allah’.”

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 108-109, hadeeth # 173

Now, lets see what al-kashee understood by these sahih hadiths, here is the opinion of shia alim al-kashee regarding ibn saba:

ذكر بعض أهل العلم أن عبد الله بن سبإ كان يهوديا فأسلم و والى عليا (ع) و كان يقول و هو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون وصي موسى بالغلو فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة رسول الله (ص) في علي (ع) مثل ذلك و كان أول من شهر بالقول بفرض إمامة علي و أظهر البراءة من أعدائه و كاشف مخالفيه و أكفرهم فمن هاهنا قال من خالف الشيعة أصل التشيع و الرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية.

Some people of knowledge mentioned that Abdullah bin Saba’ was a Jew, who embraced Islam and supported Ali. While he was still a Jew, he used to go to extremism in calling Yousha’ bin Noon as the appointee (successor) of Moses, thus after embracing Islam – after the demise of the Messenger of Allah [pbuh&hf] – he said the like about Ali. It was him who first publicly announced the mandatory Iamamah for Ali, rejected and disowned his enemies, debated his opponents and called them Kafirs. Hence, those who oppose the Shi’ites often say: The Shi’ites and Rejectors (Rafidah) have their roots in Judaism “.

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 109

So now abdullah ibn saba is no-more a unknown person accused by rafida’s.

Refer: http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/abdullah-ibn-saba/

[imnew]

do u mean abdullah ibnai sabah or abaidullah ibne sabah??

abidullah-ine-sabah claimed that he was the Promised Al-Mahdi. He is said to be the starter of all fitnas today and he is the 1st person who claimed that Hazrat Ali(R.Z) are Allah (naozbillah) Maula ali

hasan bin sabah name comes after abaidullah in the list of people who announced themself as Al-Mahdi and acording to historians there are 40 people who claimed this title so far dunno how many are going to appear after 2012 and the last person was Mirza Tahir ahmed Qadiani

[borjigin]

Its often a tactic among deceivers to muddle the clear waters by creating doubts.Even if you materialize addullah bin saba among them they would say that they wouldnt know him.Its called taqiya.

[abul_hussain]

Is there any link or connection between Abdullah ibn Ubay ibn Salul ( عبد الله بن أبي بن سلول ) and this Abdullah ibn Saba ?

[TripolySunni]

The oldest reference to the term "Sabaiite" is Diwan Ashi Hamdan , p. 147. Ashi hamdan died in 83 H.

He says about Mukhtar Thaqafi and his companions


شهدت عليكم أنكم سبئية وأني بكم يا شرطة الكفر عارف
"I give testimony that you are Sabaiites. O soldiers of kufr, I know you very well."

[TripolySunni]

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله

Regarding the Shia argument about Seif ibn 'Umar being the only narrator who narrates about 'Abdullah ibn Saba, I will quote the famous Shia website "al-Islam" that said in their article called "Abdullah Ibn Saba (Part I)":


The fabricated stories around the character of Abdullah Ibn Saba are the malicious production of one of the disciples of the devil, namely Sayf Ibn Umar al-Tamimi.

They wrote in their article "Abdullah Ibn Saba (Part II)":


Ibn Saba did not exist at that time, not even in the imagination of Saif Ibn Umar al-Tamimi who invented this character.


I say: Here is Not just one or two But EIGHT different narrations about 'Abdullah ibn Saba in the books of Ahlul-Sunnah [Tareekh Madinat Dimashq of Ibn 'Asakir] which do not contain Seif ibn 'Umar in the Sanad:


1- أخبرنا أبو البركات الأنماطي ، أنا أبو طاهر احمد بن الحسن وأبو الفضل أحمد بن الحسن ، قالا : أنا عبد الملك بن محمد بن عبد الله أنا أبو علي بن الصواف ، نا محمد بن عثمان بن أبي شيبة ، نا محمد ابن العلاء ، نا أبو بكر بن عياش ، عن مجالد ، عن الشعبي قال : أول من كذب عبد الله بن سبأ .


2- قرأنا على أبي عبد الله يحي بن الحسن ، عن أبي الحسين ابن الأبنوسي ، أنا أحمد بن عبيد بن الفضل ، وعن أبي نعيم محمد بن عبد الواحد ابن عبد العزيز ، أنا علي بن محمد بن خزفة قالا : نا محمد بن الحسين ، نا ابن أبي خيثمة ، نا محمد بن عباد ، نا سفيان ، عن عمار الدهني قال : سمعت أبا الطفيل يقول : رأيت المسيب بن نجبة أتى به طببه يعنى ابن السوداء وعلي على المنبر فقال علي : ما شأنه؟ فقال : يكذب على الله وعلى رسوله .


3 - أخبرنا أبو القاسم يحي بن بطريق بن بشرى وأبو محمد عبد الكريم ابن حمزة قالا : أنا أبو الحسين بن مكي ، أنا أبو القاسم المؤمل بن أحمد بن محمد الشيباني ، نا يحيى بن محمد بن صاعد، نا بندار ، نا محمد بن جعفر ، نا شعبة ، عن سلمة ، عن زيد بن وهب عن علي قال : مالي وما لهذا الحميت الأسود ؟ قال: ونا يحي بن محمد ، نا بندار ، نا محمد بن جعفر ، نا شعبة عن سلمة قال: سمعت أبا الزعراء يحدث عن علي عليه السلام قال: مالي وما لهذا الحميت الأسود؟


4 – أخبرنا أبو محمد بن طاوس وأبو يعلى حمزة بن الحسن بن المفرج ، قالا: أنا أبو القاسم بن أبي العلاء ، نا أبو محمد بن أبي نصر ، أنا خيثمة بن سليمان ، نا أحمد بن زهير بن حرب ، نا عمرو بن مرزوق أنا شعبة ، عن سلمة بن كهيل عن زيد قال : قال علي بن أبي طالب : مالي ولهذا الحميت الأسود ؟ يعني عبد الله ابن سبأ وكان يقع في أبي بكر وعمر.


5- أنبأنا أبو عبد الله بن أحمد بن إبراهيم أبن الخطاب ، أنا أبو القاسم علي بن محمد بن علي الفارسي ، وأخبرنا أبو محمد عبد الرحمن بن أبي الحسين بن إبراهيم الداراني ، أنا سهل بن بشر ، أنا أبو الحسن علي بن منير بن أحمد بن منير الخلال قالا : أنا القاضي أبو الطاهر محمد بن أحمد بن عبدالله الذهلي ، نا أبو أحمد ابن عبدوس نا محمد بن عباد ، نا سفيان ، نا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني ، عن سلمة بن كهيل عن حجية بن عدي الكندي قال :رأيت . عليا كرم الله وجهه وهو على المنبر وهو يقول من يعذرني من هذا الحميت الأسود الذي يكذب على الله وعلى الرسول يعني أبن السوداء لولا أن لا يزال يخرج عليَّ عصابة تنعي عليَّ دمه كما ادعيت علي دماء أهل النهر لجعلت منهم ركاما .


6- أخبرنا أبو المظفر بن القشيرى ، أنا أبو سعد الجنزروذى ، أنا أبوعمرو ابن حمدان ، وأخبرنا أبو سهل محمد بن إبراهيم بن سعدويه ، أنا أبو يعلى الموصلي ، نا أبو كريب محمد بن العلاء الهمداني , نا محمد أبن الحسن الأسدى ، نا هارون بن صالح الهمداني ، عن الحارث أبن عبد الرحمن عن أبي الجلاس ، قال : سمعت عليا يقول لعبد الله السبئي : ويلك والله ما أفضي إلي بشيء كتمه أحداً من الناس ، ولقد سمعته يقول : أن بين يدي الساعة ثلاثين كذابا وإنك لا حدهم . قالا : وانا أبو يعلى ، نا أبو بكر بن أبي شيبة ، نا محمد أبن الحسن ، زاد أبن المقرىء الأسدي بإسناده مثله .


7- أخبرنا أبو بكر أحمد بن المظفر بن الحسين بن سوسن التمار في كتابة ، وأخبرني أبو طاهر محمد بن محمد بن عبد الله السبخي بمرو ، عنه ، أنا أبو علي بن شاذان ، نا أبو بكر محمد بن عبد الله بن يونس أبو الأحوص عن مغيرة عن سماك قال : بلغ عليا أن ابن السواد ينتقض أبا بكر وعمر ، فدعا به ودعا بالسيف أو قال فهم بقتله فكلم فيه فقال : لايساكني ببلد أنا فيه ، قال : فسير إلى المدائن .


8 - أنبأنا أبو بكر محمد بن طرخان بن بلتكين بن يحكم ، أنا أبو الفضائل محمد أبن أحمد بن عبد الباقي بن طوق ، قال : قرىء على أبي القاسم عبيدالله ابن علي أبن عبيد الله الرقي ، نا أبو أحمد عبيد الله بن محمد أبن أبى مسلم ، أنا أبو عمر محمد بن عبد الواحد ، أخبرني الغطافي ، عن رجاله ، عن الصادق عن آبائه الطاهرين عن جابر قال : لما بويع علي خطب الناس فقام إليه عبد الله بن سبأ فقال له : أنت دابة الأرض ، قال فقال له : اتق الله ، فقال له : أنت الملك ، فقال له : اتق الله ، فقال له : أنت خلقت الخلق ، وبسطت الرزق ، فأمر بقتله ، فاجتمعت الرافضة فقالت : دعه وانفه إلى ساباط المدائن فإنك إن قتلته بالمدينة خرجت أصحابه علينا وشيعته ، فنفاه إلي ساباط المدائن فثم القرامطة والرافضة ، قال : ثم قامت إليه طائفة وهم السبئية وكانوا أحد عشر رجلا فقال أرجعوا فإني علي بن أبي طالب أبي مشهور وأمي مشهورة ، وانا أبن عم محمد صلي الله عليه وسلم فقالوا لا نرجع ، دع داعيك فأحرقهم بالنار ، وقبورهم في صحراء أحد عشر مشهورة فقال من بقي ممن لم يكشف رأسه منهم علينا : أنه إله ، واحتجوا بقول ابن عباس : " لا يعذب بالنار إلا خالقها " . قال ثعلب : وقد عذب بالنار قبل علي أبو بكر الصديق شيخ الإسلام رضي الله عنه وذاك أنه رفع إليه رجل يقال له : الفجأة وقالوا إنه شتم النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم بعد وفاته ، فأخرجه إلى الصحراء فأحرقه بالنار . قال فقال ابن عباس : قد عذب أبو بكر بالنار فاعبدوه أيضا.

Sheikh Suleiman bin Hamad al-'Auwdah grades the narrations in his book
"'Abdullah bin Sabaa wa Atharuhu fi Ahdath al-Fitnah fi Sadr al-Islam"
"عبد الله بن سبأ و أثره في أحداث الفتنة في صدر الإسلام "
as such:

1st: al-Shu'ubi says:" 'Abdullah ibn Saba was the first who lied. "

Grading: Da'eef, because of Muhammad ibn 'Uthman ibn abi Shaybah.

2nd: 'Ali asked al-Museeb ibn Najbah about ibn al-Sawdaa 'Abdullah ibn Saba and he replied: "He lies upon Allah and his prophet."

Grading: Sahih.

3rd: 'Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) says: "What does this black man want from me?" meaning ibn Sabaa.

Grading: It Is actually two different narrations, both have the same Sanad except for one of them is from Abu al-Zara'ah and one is from Zaid ibn Wahb and both narrations are Sahih.

4th: 'Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) says: "What does this black man want from me? meaning 'Abdullah ibn Sabaa and he used to attack Abu Bakr and 'Umar."

Grading: Has a good Sanad of trustworthy narrators.

5th: 'Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) said: "Who will excuse me of this black man -meaning ibn al-Sawdaa - who lies upon Allah and his Prophet?"

Grading: Hasan.

6th: 'Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) tells ibn Sabaa: "Woe to you! by Allah he(prophet SAWS) did not tell me anything that he kept hidden from others, I heard him say that from now until the hour there will be thirty liars and you are one of them."

Grading: Some of the narrators have been criticized but it has been narrated through several other chains with better narrators.

7th: al-Sammak says: It had reached 'Ali that ibn al-Sawdaa was attacking Abu Bakr and 'Umar so he called on him and he called for a sword but they talked him out of killing him so he said: "By Allah he will never live with me in the same city" and he was exiled to al-Madaen.

Grading: Has trustworthy narrators but al-Sammak who is a follower in al-Kufa could not have heard it directly from 'Ali.

8th: 'Ali stood as a Khateeb amongst the people after baya'ah then ibn Sabaa went to him and said: You are the beast of the earth, Ali said: fear Allah! so ibn Saba said: You are al-Malik, Ali said: Fear Allah! so ibn Saba said: you created the creations and offered the bounties, So 'Ali ordered that he be killed but the Rafidhah told 'Ali: leave him be it is better if you exile him to al-Madaen in Yemen otherwise his Shias and followers will rebel against us...until the end of the narration.

Grading: All narrators are trustworthy except for one unknown narrator called al-Ghattafi who has not been documented, could be a mistake in copying the name.


As for Seif ibn 'Umar it's not that he is a liar some of his narrations in History are true but he is more of a story-teller as in he narrates the event without regard to accuracy of words but in the form of a fun story which is why as a narrator of Prophetic Hadith his narrations are rejected by consensus, here are some examples:

al-Nisa'i (d. 303 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and they should be disregarded because he was unreliable and untrustworthy."

Yahya Ibn Mueen (d. 233 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and useless."

Abu Hatam (d. 277 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is rejected."

Ibn Abi Hatam (d. 327 AH) wrote: "Scholars have abandoned Sayf's narrations."

al-Suyuti (d. 900 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is weak."

But when it comes to Historical narrations what he says is taken into consideration unlike what the Shia claimed.

Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani says about him in Taqreeb al-Tahtheeb 1/344:

ابن حجر في تقريب التهذيب ( 1/344 ): (عمدة في التاريخ)
"Relied upon in history."

al-Dhahabi says about him in Meezan al-I'itidal 2/255:

الذهبي في ميزان الاعتدال (2/255): (كان إخباريا عارفا).
"He was a knowledgeable historian."

For this reason the scholars have placed certain rules to accepting any narration from Seif ibn 'Umar:

1- What he says needs to have a Sahih foundation in the books of Hadith(i.e Sahih al-Bukhari) and it has to be taken from the reliable historical sources(i.e Tareekh al-Tabari).
2- His narrations must not have anything related to 'Aqeedah and matters of Halal and Haram.
3- His narrations must be free from any attacks on any of the companions.
4- His narration must not be biased towards certain well known political positions during the rightly-guided caliphate.

و الحمد لله وحده

[TripolySunni]

Now here are three Sahih narrations that talk about ‘Abdullah bin Saba from the books of the Twelver Shia.

The first chain is one of the most impeccable chains you can get in Shia hadeeth books. This is like their “golden” chain:

(1)

حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.


Hisham bin Salim, who said that he heard it from Imam Abu `Abd Allah (as) when he told that `Abd Allah bin Saba called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Imaam `Ali (as). Upon that ‘Ali ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171

(2)

حدثني محمد بن قولويه قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى عن علي بن مهزيار عن فضالة بن أيوب الأزدي عن أبان بن عثمان قال سمعت أبا عبد الله (ع) يقول لعن الله عبد الله بن سبإ إنه ادعى الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين (ع) و كان و الله أمير المؤمنين (ع) عبدا لله طائعا الويل لمن كذب علينا و إن قوما يقولون فينا ما لا نقوله في أنفسنا نبرأ إلى الله منهم نبرأ إلى الله منهم.


I heard Imam Abu `Abd Allah (as) saying: 'May Allah curse `Abd Allah bin Saba, he claimed a divinity/lordship for Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (as). By Allah, Amierul-Mu'mineen (as) was volunterily the slave of Allah. Woe to him who lies about us, for there are people who say about us what we don't say about ourselves, we disassociate ourselves to Allah from them, we disassociate ourselves to Allah from them'."

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 172

(3)

و بهذا الإسناد عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير. و أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن أبيه و الحسين بن سعيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال قال علي بن الحسين (ع) لعن الله من كذب علينا إني ذكرت عبد الله بن سبإ فقامت كل شعرة في جسدي لقد ادعى أمرا عظيما ما له لعنه الله كان علي (ع) و الله عبدا لله صالحا أخو رسول الله (ص) ما نال الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته لله و لرسوله و ما نال رسول الله (ص) الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته.


Imam 'Ali ibn al-Hussein (as) said: 'May the curse of Allah be upon those who tell lies about us. I mentioned `Abd Allah Ibn Saba and each hair in my body stood up, Allah cursed him. Ali was, by Allah, a proper servant of Allah, the brother of the Messenger of Allah . He did not earn the graciousness/honor from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah did not earn the honor from Allah except with his obedience to Allah'."

Source: Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 173


Each one of these aHaadeeth goes through multiple routes:
1st hadeeth = 2 different routes
2nd hadeeth = 2 different routes
3rd hadeeth = 3 different routes


2 + 2 + 3 = 7 different isnaads, all of them saying that Ibn Sabaa is mal`oon (accursed) by Ahlul-Bayt because he elevated them above their status.

Conclusion:
This shows that 'Abdullah ibn Saba was cursed by Ahlul-Bayt as he elevated them above their level in several Sahih Hadith from both Sunni and Shia books, will the Twelver Shia persist in elevating Ahlul-Bayt (as) above their level and attributing lies to them?

و الحمد لله

[*Ali*]

Assalamu Aleykum akhi Tripoli,

Could you bring some references about these conditions ?



For this reason the scholars have placed certain rules to accepting any narration from Seif ibn 'Umar:

1- What he says needs to have a Sahih foundation in the books of Hadith(i.e Sahih al-Bukhari) and it has to be taken from the reliable historical sources(i.e Tareekh al-Tabari).
2- His narrations must not have anything related to 'Aqeedah and matters of Halal and Haram.
3- His narrations must be free from any attacks on any of the companions.
4- His narration must not be biased towards certain well known political positions during the rightly-guided caliphate.


Wich scholars decide these conditions ? Jazak Allahu kheyr

[TripolySunni]

Assalamu Aleykum akhi Tripoli,

Could you bring some references about these conditions ?



Wich scholars decide these conditions ? Jazak Allahu kheyr

Very famous Islamic historians such as Muhammad Sobhi Hassan Hallaq, Muhammad ibn Tahir al-Barazanji, Sheikh Yahya Ibrahim al-Yahya, Dr.Khalid al-Ghayb in the university of Umm al-Qura.

You can review books such as:
-استشهاد عثمان و موقعة الجمل في مرويات سيف ابن عمر في تأريخ الطبري
-صحيح و ضعيف تاريخ الإمام الطبري

Keep in mind that al-Tabari relied upon Seif a lot during the period of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq (ra) and that the majority of the narrations of Seif are weak, the weakest of his narrations come through his student Shu'ayb whereas the most correct of his narrations come through this chain:
'Ubeidullah told us: my uncle told me: Seif told me so and so.

[*Ali*]

Barak Allahu fik akhi lubnani :)

[tariqul-islam]

The notion that Abdullah bin Saba founded the Shi'ah has been discredited and has very little credibility. Most of the reports on Abdullah b. Saba comes from the discredited Sayf b. 'Umar and the scholars of hadith agree that Sayf b Umar was a liar. The Maliki scholar, Shaykh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali comments on this in a response to a question HERE (http://www.lamppostproductions.com/?p=539)

[TripolySunni]

The notion that Abdullah bin Saba founded the Shi'ah has been discredited and has very little credibility. Most of the reports on Abdullah b. Saba comes from the discredited Sayf b. 'Umar and the scholars of hadith agree that Sayf b Umar was a liar. The Maliki scholar, Shaykh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali comments on this in a response to a question HERE (http://www.lamppostproductions.com/?p=539)

Haven't you read the thread? we've already replied to this point in full detail.

[TripolySunni]

Another Shia Hadith with a good chain about the followers of Ibn Saba:

A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen 'Ali, and they said to him: “Peace be upon you, Our Lord (rabbanaa)! So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.

Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18

Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401

[rahe haq ka musafir]

jnab aise sawal na puchen balkah sirf daleel se sabit karen

[francisaso_12]

I am a christian but I'd like to know the religious belief of our brother Muslims. Why washing feet or washing entire body before entering the mosque?

[abdul baset]

I am a christian but I'd like to know the religious belief of our brother Muslims. Why washing feet or washing entire body before entering the mosque?
Brother, have you converted to Islam (i see a madhab)?