Moonsighting/1ST of Ramadan?

[MoOMoO]

:Bismillah: :salam:

Last night I was having a conversation with one of the sisters about when to start fasting. According to her and her family. They call Saudi Arabia at 3AM Seattle time (before Fajr here in Seattle) to ask if they have seen the moon. And they begin fasting that day, if the moon in Saudi Arabia has been sighted.

Another opinion is that we wait until the moon reaches us, in Seattle, which would be the next night, and we would fast a day later than Saudi Arabia.
And our Eid would also be a day later. So here in Seattle, as I am sure it is in other cities, we have half of the Muslims starting on one day and the other half starting on the other. Clearly this is a problem, with the Eid prayers....so here is my logic...

Before the invention of the telephone, email or other quick ways of communication, I would think that we wouldn't fast until we see the moon in our own areas of location.

Is this correct? Or should we fast according to Saudi Arabia?

And if this is the case with fasting, why don't we also pray according to Saudi Arabia. In my case, I am of the opinion that we actually wait till we see the moon in our areas, because this is more logical. Because we don't pray Fajr in the middle of the day, even when Saudi Arabia is praying right?

Please give me your opinions on this.

May Allah give us all the guidance to practice Islam perfectly as it is the PERFECT religion.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

fast according to what your city decides on, or state... so if they saudi spotted it on this night yet you didnt spot it until the day after then you fast that day after then the day you saw it. I'll find the proof and post it up insha'Allah.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

source http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000680.aspx

[Mustafa]

Bismillah

As-salaam alaikum

As someone who lives in Saudi, I would advise you *not* to follow the Saudi announcement. Here, we follow a pre-calculated hijri calender, regardless of whether the moon was sighted or not. For Ramadan, there are committees that go out and look for the moon, but they can be overruled by the Government.

I remember last year they messed up the beginning of Muharram and so people were fasting Ashura a day early. The Government allowed a radio announcement that informed the people of the mistake so that could re-do the fast on the correct date.

An example on how they also messed up Ramadan in the past can be seen in this article HERE (http://www.albalagh.net/general/hilal_sighting.shtml) (Ignoring the fact that they quote Wahhabi sources there, what's important is the methodology the Saudis use in order to announce the beginning of a lunar month, and the fact that the Hilal committees are not taken as authorities).

And Allah knows best.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Tasmiya]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

fast according to what your city decides on, or state... so if they saudi spotted it on this night yet you didnt spot it until the day after then you fast that day after then the day you saw it. I'll find the proof and post it up insha'Allah.

Asalaamu alaikum,
But according to the link you gave, the GLOBAL sighting is sounder and more precautionary. Maybe I am getting all confused, but doesn't that mean that if there is any sighting anywhere in the world, this is what we follow, regardless of what is seen/not seen in our state/city?

-Tasmiya

[muslim786]

Assalamulikum WR WB,

Yes the global position is more sounder BUT that doesn't mean we follow Saudi Arabia like a lot of people do, as another person has stated they base their judgements on a precalculated chart.
Also we first look to the countries that are on the same meridian or close meridians to us, in the case of the UK these are places like Morocco, Spain etc and NOT saudi arabia.

[suhayl]

In some places it is hard, because you get a lot of cloud cover. For example the UK, I am sure you can not spot the moon through huge grey (black even) looking clouds. Therefore it would be hard to judge whether it is ramdan or eid for the reason.

I leave it to the ulama to decide. They are more knowledgable than we are in deciding.

[Mariah]

Before the invention of the telephone, email or other quick ways of communication, I would think that we wouldn't fast until we see the moon in our own areas of location.

Is this correct? Or should we fast according to Saudi Arabia?



Urm well India, Pakistan, Africa and im sure America and Canada also all do it a day later than Saudi so i guess it aint all about just 'following' Saudi...



I leave it to the ulama to decide. They are more knowledgable than we are in deciding.

:salam:

uh yeah we leave it to the ulema but our ulema here in Leicester follow Saudi Arabia, and thats a well known fact, now youv herd what brother Mustafa had to say about Saudi and this is a pallava that happnes every year...
Although we all know quite categorically that we have to follow the country thats nearest to us as mentioned by muslim786 above...

you get the barelwis whateva that just do it a day late for the sake of it, and you get Dawatul Haq and its parties that go moon hunting.. even with them they arent consistent in their hunting, like they dont go every month so how do they follow on?

Well i know some check with the met offices and work it out scientifically.. that seems a more reliable solution i think...

hmm theres a contoversy every Ramadhan and Hajj and not much seems to be done about it...


wassalam

[Aqdas]

Assalamu 'Alaikum!


you get the barelwis whateva that just do it a day late for the sake of it,
Come on! That's unfair and you know it. Why would they do it a day late just for the sake of it? They have the methodolgy of Rasoolallah sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam which is to sight the moon and not follow Saudi at all costs.
I have heard from many that Saudi announces moon sightings when the new moon is a few hours old. How is this possible? A new moon can only be seen when it is at least 18 hours old, even then, it is very, very hard to see even with instruments. Most new moons need to be about 24 hours old to be seen.
So, what you say about the Sunni Barelwi's, I didn't like one bit because it was very unfair.
Worth a read http://www.ghazali.net/calander/Moon_Astronomy/body_moon_astronomy.html
Wassalam

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

i hope this wont turn into a versus discussion.

[Mossy]

Slightly ot.. Does anyone know the following:

a) approximately when Ramadan starts
b) the approximate time range for fajr/maghrib during ramadan

Thank ye

[Saleel]

:salam:

a) approximately when Ramadan starts
October 16th seems likely... Allahu Alam.


b) the approximate time range for fajr/maghrib during ramadan
Check islamicfinder.org to get a timetable for prayer times from 16th October onwards... I believe we'll also jump an hour during Ramadhan.

:salam:

[Mariah]

Assalamu 'Alaikum!


Come on! That's unfair and you know it. Why would they do it a day late just for the sake of it? They have the methodolgy of Rasoolallah sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam which is to sight the moon and not follow Saudi at all costs.
I have heard from many that Saudi announces moon sightings when the new moon is a few hours old. How is this possible? A new moon can only be seen when it is at least 18 hours old, even then, it is very, very hard to see even with instruments. Most new moons need to be about 24 hours old to be seen.
So, what you say about the Sunni Barelwi's, I didn't like one bit because it was very unfair.
Worth a read http://www.ghazali.net/calander/Moon_Astronomy/body_moon_astronomy.html
Wassalam

:salam:
ok how about when Saudi are correct, even if it may be guess work, how about when the moon hunters also agree and the barelwis STILL do it a day later?

sorry i didnt mean to cause arguments and disputes... if that is what its turning into then mods do delete what iv written...

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Slightly ot.. Does anyone know the following:

a) approximately when Ramadan starts
b) the approximate time range for fajr/maghrib during ramadan

Thank ye

assalamu alaikum wr wb

depends on where you are, go according to what your state or city decides on the moon sighting of when Ramadan should start then go from there.
as for the time range it depends on where you are too some timings are different.
like for the usa/canada depending on the time zone they're in, say for example eastern the timings would be from morning at fajr which is 5am until maghrib hits in which is 6:30pm so that's about 12 hours or so. Then the time will go back by one hour and it will still be about 12 hours of fasting time. Though dont focus too much on the timings or it will make you more hungry and you will lose the purpose or reasoning for the fast.

I remember when i was living in cairo and how these poor ppl would be waiting for the iftar for hours but it just made them hungrier than you met some of them that did stuff till the time for iftar came to keep themselves busy... this is what we should do keep ourselves busy so we dont worry about that... but if you're just generally asking for the sake of planning your iftar and what to prepare and etc to see how much time you'll have then it should be anywhere from a 10 to 12 to even a 16 hour fast.

A sister i know lives in finland and she told me that when Ramadan comes in and its around the spring/summer time the timings are way off.. like fajr comes in at 3am and maghrib is at 10pm, and isha is at midnight. yup not much time and a very long long day...

Perhaps we can have a forum alone just dedicated to Ramadan and iftar tips and reminders sahur tips and remidners and recipes thread...
insha'Allah

[Yaseen]

Salaam

I have to agree with Brother Aqdas that the Sunni Barelvi use the local sighting methodology based on data from Greenwich lab or some other lab that collates information about the moon. To say they do it a day later for the sake of it is the propaganda of those that follow Saudi. How come last year we had one 'id al-fitr for example.

I also find it ironic that people who follow Saudi cite that using astronomical data is wrong yet they follow Saudi who follow a pre-determined calendar as Bro Mustafa has stated.

I just wish that the 'ulama would follow the most logical method for the benefit of the ummah. Ameen

wasalaam

[MoOMoO]

The way I think is most logical is what I stated before:

There weren't phones and stuff for people to call eachother...so I think its best if we take the responsibilty to go out and see the ayah of Allah, the wonderful Qalam (moon) and see the phenomenom ourselves and make the intention to fast the day after WE (ourselves) see the moon. We are only responsible for ourselves...so i think its best if we take the initiative to look for the moon on our own, instead of relying on other people.
I mean, tell me, if we didn't have these prayer time calendars, how many of us wouldn't know when to actually pray. I think we should all learn how to tell by looking at the sun and its places during the day...

what are your thoughts??

With love for the Sake of Allah, the Almighty.
Ameenah (aMOOna)

[eat-halal guy]

:salam:

I suggest everyone who's into the whole moonsighting issue check out this document: http://www.jas.org.jo/hilaal/ . I came across it before and we (Jami`yyatul Ulama members) just received it by e-mail. It's long but worth the read, I think.

[eat-halal guy]

uh yeah we leave it to the ulema but our ulema here in Leicester follow Saudi Arabia, and thats a well known fact

:o Really surprised to hear that.

[suhayl]

Inshallah, Taraweeh today... so therefore first fast tomorow.. ramadhan mabruk!

[Zahra]

Khair mubarak!

[Live for Islam]

:o Really surprised to hear that.

It's not only in Leicester. Way back in 1986 or something the Ulama in the UK all got together and had this conference and it was decided that we should follow Saudi Arabia. There was a lot of reasons for this, and a lot of well known scholars involved. Not a lot of people are aware of this. Some of our Shuyukh have written books on this also. So insha-Allah it's best to read up why our Ulama opt for Saudi first..right.

Anyways yup, first Taraweeh tonight. Ramadhan Mubarak! :)

[eat-halal guy]

It's not only in Leicester. Way back in 1986 or something the Ulama in the UK all got together and had this conference and it was decided that we should follow Saudi Arabia. There was a lot of reasons for this, and a lot of well known scholars involved. Not a lot of people are aware of this. Some of our Shuyukh have written books on this also. So insha-Allah it's best to read up why our Ulama opt for Saudi first..right.

wow, never knew that


Anyways yup, first Taraweeh tonight. Ramadhan Mubarak! :)


Ramadhan mubarak to everyone who has taraweeh tonight :). I'm hoping I can get away with it for 1 more day...lol.

[Sajeda]

Khair Mubarak... and Ramadhan Mubarak to All

Wassalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuhu

[Ajami]

First taraweeh? Whaaa? But then again, I live in Chicago. Ramadan Mubarak to those that have taraweeh tonight.



Ramadhan mubarak to everyone who has taraweeh tonight :). I'm hoping I can get away with it for 1 more day...lol.
lol.

[eat-halal guy]

It's not only in Leicester. Way back in 1986 or something the Ulama in the UK all got together and had this conference and it was decided that we should follow Saudi Arabia. There was a lot of reasons for this, and a lot of well known scholars involved.


I just realized that the UK and Saudi only have a 3 hour time difference. Yeah, in that case, I can sorta see why they may have made this decision. Over hear in North America, we've got anywhere from 7 to 11 hours difference from Saudi, so it doesn't make much sense for us. We take in sightings from all of North America, and often hafta rely on southern US or west coast sightings since we're usually cloudy, though today we are *checks outside window* clear...with clouds building up :(.

That being said, there are some Masajid and orgs that choose to follow Saudi Arabia. From what I understand, it is allowed provided one follows them all the time, and not flip flop.

Following Saudi has become so taboo for us here that I was surprised when I heard about UK, but after thinking about it, it isn't that surprising.

[Yaseen]

Salaam

First of all Ramadhaan Mubarak to all-whenever you are starting.

In the UK and more specifically Bradford there is yet again a difference opf opinion as eegards the start of the auspicious monnth of Ramadhaan. As has been mentioned there are 'ulama who are following Saudi and hence are fasting tomorrow.Everyone else seems to be starting on saturday. It really is a sad state of affairs with fsmilies being split on when to start fasting.

Personally, I am fasting on Saturday as the mosque I attend have come to this decision base on their method..

I think another key issue is that there is al lot opf misunderstanding regarding the fiqh of moonsighting. For example I heard a brother say that 'ulama starting on Saturday are wrong. At the end of the day the 'ulama announcements are based on the methods that they see fit.

One thing I would like to see would be a commitee to be set up whereby the 'ulama could for once put their differences aside and unite on the issue of moonsighting. This has been achieved in Birmingham with everyone fasting on the same day. I would be grateful if one of the Brum could confirm this as this is something I heard.

Also what do people think abput the whole idea of following saudi .

May Alla subaahanahu wa ta'ala give us all the tawfeeq to gain maximum benfit from Ramadhan.

wasaalaam

[talib al-habib]

salaams

birmingham/west midlands starts ramadan tomorrow (15th Oct 1st fast). Based on astronomical data from Greenwich, as far as I can tell. Though also because according to most, 30 days of sha`ban have finished. ramadan mubarak whenever!

[ibn_abdullah]

As-salaamu alaykum

This may sound basic but here's my methadology;

Past 1400 years Muslims cities and states followed their own reasoning even though they may have had abiliity to communicate with another locality yet chose not to...as for us and not being able to see it , i think it is very simple in that AllaH(swt) is the bringer of day, is the bringer of night, is the bringer of the sun, is the bringer of the moon, is the bringer of the clouds is the bringer of the rain, in the end it is ALL up to Allah(Swt) if he wishes to have cloud cover over a certain area then in His sharia there is a methadology which we must look to and that is that if you can't see it then u do it the next day or what not. AllaH(swt) decides to show the moon to whomever He wills, it is only and only Allah(swt). In terms of the fiqh and stuff i'm not a scholar but i can say what i do know is that for hundreds of years no nation, city or state was followed but consensus of locality was taken. We are upon the methadology of our Salaf and their methadology is that you see within your area and if in that area you dont see it then its' ok, it is only by the will of AllaH(swt) and if you do see it then it also only by the will of Allah(swt), and if you dont see it and another locality sees it, then its' ok..because it is only by the will of AllaH(swt). This is another example of how our tawakul should be solely on Allah(swt) and His signs. Of how it should be focused on Allah(swt) and not our own thought and for us to realize that we are ALL in need of Allah(swt) for guidance. So this moon thing is just another example of tawakul and how we are truly nothing it is only Allah(swt). Seldom do we remember that each actino in this deen has a heart and a spiritual dimension. We are all in need of AllaH(swt) and His guidance. May He make us from those who understand this idea and make sujood to His majesty...ameen.

Was-salaam

PS: Pre-calculated calendar??? I bet if anyone OTHER than Sauid did this people would be yelling BIDAH!!! But NOOO...whatever Saudi does is direct revelation from Allah(Swt)!!! Bunch of nonesense...those who want to follow the rulings of a corrupt state and government go ahead...

[Yaseen]

Salaam

I have to agree with you With you Bro ibn Abdullah as regards Saudi.

Wasalaam

[saq333]

Salaam

I have to agree with you With you Bro ibn Abdullah as regards Saudi.

Wasalaam

yea, im not down with Saudi. anywayz, heres a bit of interesting info. (in chicago were pretty much split. I went with the Saturday-ers)

Assalamu Alalikum,

I have been called by several of you concerning the beginning of Ramadan.

The single sighting in Austin Texas has been checked by local scholars. It was
rejected. Traditional scholars all around the United States have also rejected
this sighting (including Hamza Yusuf). Furthermore, ISNAs official astronomer
(Khalid Shaukat) states, "I voiced my opinion that this witness is not
credible
but ISNA made the decision"

Based on the above I have not fasted today. I

hope
this answers your concerns.

Jazakalllah
Husain

[Zidane]

once again, isna causes a split amongst north american muslims when it comes to moon sighting matters. This time they didn't listen to their own appointed astronomer! Check out his website:

http://www.moonsighting.com

[Omar HH]

Zayutuna and Imam Zaid said not to accept any witnesses that it was today.

And the Malik Scholar Abu Qanit al-Hassani has put an end to any disputes that Ramadan started today in North America by stating:

In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Powerful

Assalamu `Alaykum.

Dear Honest Student,

Sidi, you wrote:

> There is contraversy over when Ramadan starts. It was thought to be
> Saturday in North America until less than an hour ago I believe. 2
> people in Austin, TX, said they saw the moon. Yet, Zaytuna Institute
> which has pious Malikis and Shaffis in it) says that it is impossible
> astronomically to see the moon tonight and therefore they will NOT
> accept any sightings (goto Zaytuna.org).
>
> Since Zaytuna is more reputable than ISNA (in my opinion) as being
> traditional Ahlul Sunnah in it's ways, should we trust them or ISNA?
>
> I am just going by what Zaytuna says, is this haram?

No. You may follow Zaytuna and start fasting on the 16th of October,
Saturday.

We ourselves feel that the reported sighting in Austin is dubious due
to the position of the moon (which was over Australia (in daylight) at
the time of the reported sighting).

And, of course, without further proof of the two mens' uprightness and
or other authentic photographic proof, it is actually the safer
position
to consider Ramadan as beginning on the 16th of October for most of
the residents of the world.



Wassalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah

Abuqanit Hasani
Main Author
Guiding Helper Foundation

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[Live for Islam]

PS: Pre-calculated calendar??? I bet if anyone OTHER than Sauid did this people would be yelling BIDAH!!! But NOOO...whatever Saudi does is direct revelation from Allah(Swt)!!! Bunch of nonesense...those who want to follow the rulings of a corrupt state and government go ahead...

SubhanAllah. I don't really have time to go into the reasoning behind why our Deobandi Ulama here unanimously agreed to follow Saudi Arabia. However, I'm sure you will agree that all our Ulama collectively cannot be wrong... there must have been some underlying wisdom behind them agreeing to follow Saudi, something you may not understand. Trust your Ulama, Insha-Allah.

Khair I'll leave it at that for now. Whichever day you start Ramadhan, remember intention is most important. May Allah (SWT) accept each and everyone of our fasts and Ibadah. And may He forgive us all in this blessed mubarak month. Ameen.

Wassalam.

[Ajami]

yea, im not down with Saudi. anywayz, heres a bit of interesting info. (in chicago were pretty much split. I went with the Saturday-ers)


Yea me too. If you go www.shariahboard.com , Mufti Nawal ur Rahman sahb's site, he straight up said the moon sightings were false.

[VeiledOne]

There has been soo much controversy in the U.S. this year over the sighting of the moon. ISNA and ICNA's announcement of Ramadan starting on Friday has been really controversal. I even prayed tarawih thursday night and then I find out 3am that Ramadan begins saturday. I was sooo confused, but then I came across all this...

1st Ramadan is Inshallah on Saturday, October 16th.
News from Austin, Texas about Moon Sighting is false
http://shariahboard.com

Zaytuna Institute has not received any confirmed reports of the new
moon being sighted on Thursday, October 14th. We have been unable to
reliably confirm the reports of a sighting in Austin, Texas. Our
reliable contacts in Arizona, Southern California, and Texas all
indicated that the sky was clear and that there was no visible moon.
Saturday will be the first day of the fast of Ramadan.
http://zaytuna.org/

Khalid Shaukat, (ISNAs official astronomer, National Coordinator, and
Consultant to ISNA, and Islamic Shurah Council of North America)
voiced his opinion that the witness is not credible, but (ISNA's) Fiqh
Council made this decision.
http://moonsighting.com

We ourselves feel that the reported sighting in Austin is dubious due
to the position of the moon (which was over Australia (in daylight) at
the time of the reported sighting). And, of course, without further
proof of the two mens' uprightness and or other authentic photographic
proof, it is actually the safer position to consider Ramadan as
beginning on the 16th of October for most of
the residents of the world.
Abuqanit Hasani
Main Author
Guiding Helper Foundation
http://www.guidinghelper.com/ramadan.html



So much fitnah. May Allah(SWT) unite our hearts!!!
Ameen

Finally, Ramadan Mubarak to all!

Sister in Islam

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

yup even ppl are like they dont know what is right or wrong, they dont believe the false moonsighting was really false they're dont care really its like oh well...Allah knows our intention.. not our fault....

:rolleyes:

[eat-halal guy]

:salam:

I was really, really upset last night, especially after everyone in Montreal announced it as being Friday based on the Texas sighting. I was up until 2 am, looking for numbers for masajid in Austin to get the inside scoop. I called a couple, but didn't get too far. Alhamdulillah, I got some information through my Jami`yyatul Ulama contacts, as well as from calling a masjid in NY.

If I had a choice here in Montreal, I wouldn't have fasted. But since it was unanimous here, I was in no position to break away and do my own thing.

I told myself that I was going to take it upon myself to investigate this and publish very soon in the form of an article (probably in a Muslim paper). I went to visit my old madrasah today, and informed Maulana about everything that had happened. He was upset as well.

I asked him what people like me should do in such a situation. He said that we should just follow the decision of the people who are responsible in our respective cities. He also said that it is not our responsibility to create a huge fuss about it and create fitnah, unless we can bring about some positive change. He stated that if we just follow, we will not be held responsible, and if it was the wrong decision, it will fall on the shoulders of those who made the decision.

In light of that (and based on the fact that I don't have much time with taraweeh and all), I decided to scrap my idea, for now at the very least. Publishing an ISNA-bashing article won't do any good and will just create even more fitnah right now (not to mention confuse the public even more). Instead, I will try to make some changes in how decisions are made at the local level, and if I don't succeed, then I'll just follow and let them be responsible, Insha-Allah.


Allah knows best.

[Yaseen]

Salaam

I can fully empathise with you all. here in the UK we have got so used to it that we expect this controversy on an annual basis. This year for example I am fasting on saturday(just up for suhur now) and everyone else around me is following saudi and therefore they fasted yesterday. This includes many of my cousins.

Around here they think if you do not follow saudi's ruling you have committed some sort of big sin. However there is not any evidence that suggests following saudi is fard . I also do not see the logic in this as they are not the most credible people when comes to moonsighting as has been proven in the past.

May Allah guide us all.

wasalaam

[VeiledOne]

:salam:

I was really, really upset last night, especially after everyone in Montreal announced it as being Friday based on the Texas sighting. I was up until 2 am, looking for numbers for masajid in Austin to get the inside scoop. I called a couple, but didn't get too far. Alhamdulillah, I got some information through my Jami`yyatul Ulama contacts, as well as from calling a masjid in NY.

If I had a choice here in Montreal, I wouldn't have fasted. But since it was unanimous here, I was in no position to break away and do my own thing.

I told myself that I was going to take it upon myself to investigate this and publish very soon in the form of an article (probably in a Muslim paper). I went to visit my old madrasah today, and informed Maulana about everything that had happened. He was upset as well.

I asked him what people like me should do in such a situation. He said that we should just follow the decision of the people who are responsible in our respective cities. He also said that it is not our responsibility to create a huge fuss about it and create fitnah, unless we can bring about some positive change. He stated that if we just follow, we will not be held responsible, and if it was the wrong decision, it will fall on the shoulders of those who made the decision.

In light of that (and based on the fact that I don't have much time with taraweeh and all), I decided to scrap my idea, for now at the very least. Publishing an ISNA-bashing article won't do any good and will just create even more fitnah right now (not to mention confuse the public even more). Instead, I will try to make some changes in how decisions are made at the local level, and if I don't succeed, then I'll just follow and let them be responsible, Insha-Allah.


Allah knows best.


Asalaamualaikum,

Seems like in this case there was really no way out since all the masajid in Montreal started fasting on Friday?

Question: What is to be done in a case when the majority of the people are doing it a day earlier in your locality, but then they are a few reliable masajid, who are doing it a day later? What about when half of your family decides to fast earlier? Are we suppose to follow the righteoues Ulama or the majority?

Insha'Allah, I think the public is confused and we need the reliable scholars to speak up and clear up the confusion.

Jazak'Allah khair

[Ajami]

I highly, highly suggest everyone to go to www.shariahboard.com and listen to Mufti sahb's Juma Khutba - "When does Ramadan actually start?" IT IS GREAT.

Here is the direct link: http://www.shariahboard.com/audio/Mufti-Nawal/Friday-101604.rm

Oh yeah by the way, the Mufti sahb is Shah Mufti Nawwal ur Rahman sahb (db). I'm sure you've heard of him.

[eat-halal guy]

Asalaamualaikum,

Seems like in this case there was really no way out since all the masajid in Montreal started fasting on Friday?

Question: What is to be done in a case when the majority of the people are doing it a day earlier in your locality, but then they are a few reliable masajid, who are doing it a day later? What about when half of your family decides to fast earlier? Are we suppose to follow the righteoues Ulama or the majority?

Insha'Allah, I think the public is confused and we need the reliable scholars to speak up and clear up the confusion.

Jazak'Allah khair


Walaikumussalam,

Yes, unfortunately there was no way out :(.

In the case where there are masajid run by reliable individuals who decide to 'dissent' against the majority, then I believe that in that case, one should follow those who are most reliable and not necessarily the majority. Basically, follow those you trust the most.

Allah knows best. I'll try to check up on this today, Insha-Allah.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

I highly, highly suggest everyone to go to www.shariahboard.com and listen to Mufti sahb's Juma Khutba - "When does Ramadan actually start?" IT IS GREAT.

Here is the direct link: http://www.shariahboard.com/audio/Mufti-Nawal/Friday-101604.rm

Oh yeah by the way, the Mufti sahb is Shah Mufti Nawwal ur Rahman sahb (db). I'm sure you've heard of him.

assalamu alaikum wr wb

its in urdu...
most ppl cant understand that...

[Ajami]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

its in urdu...
most ppl cant understand that...
I probably should have made a note of that. Sorry.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

that's ok..
my urdu isn't that great anyways. :)

[eTeacher]

http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=kr156

[VeiledOne]

The bayaan given by Mufti Naval is masha'Allah excellent. I like the part where he says how important it is to follow a body of Ulama rather than a non Ulama body. Many of these organizations are not run by ulama.
And Allah ta'la knows best...

[Yaseen]

Salaam

A big problem in the UK is the fact that a lot of people think it is necessary for everyone to follow saudi regardless of the credibility of their methods. This is an issue that needs seriously adressing as it is creating a real rift between the Muslims. There are cases where families are celebrating 'id on different dates, etc.

I did not folllow the Saudi sighting as the mosque I attend declared ramadhaan to begin on saturday. Indeed this is a justifiable date as has been proven by the Greenwich Laboratory prediction that the moon would only become visible on friday evening in the UK . Another point of interest is that nowhere in the world was the moon visible on Thursday evening yet, despite this, a lot of Muslims in the UK started fasting on Friday once Saudi had declared that they would complete thirty days of Sha'baan.

Unfortunately it looks like there wil be two 'ids as well. The reason being that those who started on Saturday will not be able able to view the moon until the 30th night of ramadhan in the Uk. On the same token the saudis will be able to view the moon in Saudi on their 30th night, which will be a day before those who followed the UK sighting. Hence both camps will complete 30 days of fasting.

On this basis it is very unlikely that we will have one 'id. This will only occur once the 'ulama agree to using the same methodology.

Fair enough we have issues with the Wahabiyya but surely the Deobandi and Barelvi 'ulama, whom the majority of Muslims in the UK follow could organise some sort of meeting and settle this issue once and for all.

May Allah give us the taufeeq to unite for once.

Wasalaam

[Mariah]

Salaam

I did not folllow the Saudi sighting as the mosque I attend declared ramadhaan to begin on saturday. Indeed this is a justifiable date as has been proven by the Greenwich Laboratory prediction that the moon would only become visible on friday evening in the UK . Another point of interest is that nowhere in the world was the moon visible on Thursday evening yet, despite this, a lot of Muslims in the UK started fasting on Friday once Saudi had declared that they would complete thirty days of Sha'baan.

Wasalaam

:salam:

Sadly many people wished to turn a deaf ear to this :(

[Mariah]

It's not only in Leicester. Way back in 1986 or something the Ulama in the UK all got together and had this conference and it was decided that we should follow Saudi Arabia. There was a lot of reasons for this, and a lot of well known scholars involved. Not a lot of people are aware of this. Some of our Shuyukh have written books on this also. So insha-Allah it's best to read up why our Ulama opt for Saudi first..right.

Anyways yup, first Taraweeh tonight. Ramadhan Mubarak! :)

:salam:

However in the recent years, one shaykh asked all the ulema of leicester to attend a meeting to disscuss this moon sighting issue as he has done great depth study into all of this and does his own moon hunting too (wrote a kitaab on it too) and not very surprisingly at all, all the massajids which follow saudi didnt turn up for the meating! now that is stink sorry to say...

[auron]

dont we all follow saudi for haj?

[Yaseen]

Salaam

A lot of 'ulama are of the view that 'id-ul-adha should be on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah regardless of when hajj is performed. I think this is the view of Mufti Taqi Uthmaani. The reason being that 'id-ul-adha was prescribed before Hajj was made obligatory. Also as is well-publicised the Saudi authorities are not the most reliable source as regards the sighting of the moon. Also, as far as I am aware, Rasulallah(saw) never ordered us to perform "id ul adha on the day after Hajj but on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah.

A lot of 'ulama, however suggest that we base 'id-ul-adha on the Hajj as a show of unity with those fortunate enough to perform the Hajj. This is Shaykh Hamza Yusufs' position on this issue.

Logically, with Hajj being performed on 9th Dhul Hijjah 'id ul adha should be on the 10th. However it all depends on when the moon for Dhul-Hijjah was sighted. This is the reason why in the UK we have two dates for 'id-ul-adha occasionally. Some follow Saudi whilst others base their dates on the moon being sighted in the UK.

Brother auron i do not wish to get into an argument but I felt had to respond to your post in order to highhlight the fact that there is more to the issue than meets the eye.

Wasalaam

[auron]

brother i never argue about masail im jahil and sinner .i have found in life we learn by being humble and pride will be cleansed by the fire of hell.only allah has supreme knowledge .all praise to him for allowing us to communicate on this forum.

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

Well the whole thing of weither to fast or not is depended on the hadith of Nabi (SAW) "Fast when you see the moon and stop fasting when u see the moon" In this hadith it doesn't say that fast when the new moon is born. So seeing the moon is the essential factor here. That's why the ulema have not takeing into consideration the new moon being born. So if it is cloudy and you can't see the moon...then u don't fast the following day. Also about following Saudia...in each area people are responsible to look for the moon. For example the people of Chicago are responsible to look for the moon in Chicago. We are not responsible if they saw the moon in California. Also it's not compulsory on us to fast if Saudia Arabia sees the moon. Once during the time of Sahaba Eid happened a different day in Makkah and a different day in Madina. One city saw the moon and the other didn't. So at the end it all depends if u see the moon in your area.

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

we follow saudi for haj because haj is made in saudi. If we were in Saudi for the month of Ramdan then we would fallow them.

[haqq]

THE DAYS WHEN IT IS FORBIDDEN TO FAST

There are five days during the year on which it is forbidden to fast.

These five days are:

The two days of Eid and the three days of Tashreek viz. 11th, 12th and 13th Zil-Haj. (The 3 days following Eid-ul-Adhaa)

Fasting on these days is not valid.

YAUMUSH - SHAKK (THE DOUBTFUL DAY)

(1) The day after the 29th of Sha'ban is termed Yaumush Shakk or the Doubtful Day because of the possibility of that day being the 30th Sha'baan or the 1st Ramadhan.

(2) It is Makrooh to fast on Yaumush Shakk whether it is a Nafl, Qadha or Nathr Saum.

(3) If one's usual day of Nafl fasting coincides with Yaumush Shakk, it will then not be Makrooh to fast on that day, e.g. it is one's usual practice to fast on Mondays and Thursdays. Should Yaumush Shakk coincide with Monday or Thursday and one makes the firm intention of Nafl fast, then it will not be Makrooh. Should it be confirmed later that the day is in fact the first day of Ramadhan, the fast thus kept will be regarded as the Fardh Saum of Ramadhan even though the niyyat was for Nafl.

(4) It is Makrooh Tahrimi (which is a forbidden and sinful act) to fast on this day (Yaumush Shakk) with the niyyat of Ramadhan or some other compulsory Saum such as Qadha or Nathr. Nevertheless, if it transpires that the day is in fact the first day of Ramadhan, then this fast will be regarded as the Saum of Ramadhan.

(5) It will be afdhal (best) for a person whose usual day of Nafl Saum coincides with Yaumush Shakk to fast on that day (viz. Yaumush Shakk).

(6) On the Day of Doubt people should abstain from eating until Nisfun-Nahar (about one hour before Zawwal). If by this time news confirming the sighting of the moon is received, they should make the niyyat for Ramadhan Saum. If by Nisfun-Nahar such confirmation is not received, they should eat, for then it is not Ramadhan.


from: KITTABUS-SAUM @ http://books.themajlis.net/book/view/171

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

THE DAYS WHEN IT IS FORBIDDEN TO FAST



(4) It is Makrooh Tahrimi (which is a forbidden and sinful act) to fast on this day (Yaumush Shakk) with the niyyat of Ramadhan or some other compulsory Saum such as Qadha or Nathr. Nevertheless, if it transpires that the day is in fact the first day of Ramadhan, then this fast will be regarded as the Saum of Ramadhan.


from: KITTABUS-SAUM @ http://books.themajlis.net/book/view/171

Yes this is correct. But unfortunatly many people don't understand this and fast on this day thinking is the 1st Day of Ramadan. To make one more day of Ramadan from on ownside is questioning the system of Allah. That O Allah i think you made a mistake and Ramadan should be one more day. Al-Ayaazu billahi min zalik

[Fisabilillah]

salma
what if one fasted on the 15th of october b/c on the night of the 14th they heard accroding to isna/icna, their local masajid, that the month of ramadhan was to beign on that friday, althugh they checked www.moonsighting.com and it said ramadahn started the 16th but then their local masajid said the 15th and a few other areas and organizations as well...so the person fasted that friday with the niyaah that it as ramadhan, yet they were skeptical about it becuase they were leaning towards the idea that ramadhan would indeed be starting on saturday the 16th. But they fasted on that friday anyways...w/ the idea that it was better to be safe than sorry..and insha'Alllah (maybe) if it wasnt ramadhan it would go towards nafilah fasts. okay so for that friday and that saturday they are fasting, and on that sunday the 17th they found out that ramadhan did start on saturday..NOT friday...snce they found out 2 days late.what should they do?.repent?i would really appreciate if sunnforum could get me an answer from a scholar or of the like, insha'Allah. Jazak'allahkhairun for your efforts and may Allah help make this a blessed month for all of us insha'Allah.Ameen
wasalam

[haqq]

:salam:

I was really, really upset last night, especially after everyone in Montreal announced it as being Friday based on the Texas sighting. I was up until 2 am, looking for numbers for masajid in Austin to get the inside scoop. I called a couple, but didn't get too far. Alhamdulillah, I got some information through my Jami`yyatul Ulama contacts, as well as from calling a masjid in NY.

If I had a choice here in Montreal, I wouldn't have fasted. But since it was unanimous here, I was in no position to break away and do my own thing.

I told myself that I was going to take it upon myself to investigate this and publish very soon in the form of an article (probably in a Muslim paper). I went to visit my old madrasah today, and informed Maulana about everything that had happened. He was upset as well.

I asked him what people like me should do in such a situation. He said that we should just follow the decision of the people who are responsible in our respective cities. He also said that it is not our responsibility to create a huge fuss about it and create fitnah, unless we can bring about some positive change. He stated that if we just follow, we will not be held responsible, and if it was the wrong decision, it will fall on the shoulders of those who made the decision.

In light of that (and based on the fact that I don't have much time with taraweeh and all), I decided to scrap my idea, for now at the very least. Publishing an ISNA-bashing article won't do any good and will just create even more fitnah right now (not to mention confuse the public even more). Instead, I will try to make some changes in how decisions are made at the local level, and if I don't succeed, then I'll just follow and let them be responsible, Insha-Allah.


Allah knows best.

Assalaamualaikum,

Respected Maulana,

I noticed the following fatwa regarding a similar situation to yours at ShariahBoard (http://www.shariahboard.com).


In city of Atlanta, nearly all masjids observe Ramadan and Eid according to Saudi Arabia. They do not rely on moon sighting at all. In our community, their are alims and muftis but all of them follow this practice, maybe for the sake of unity and Alhamdulillah the masjid are observing same Ramadan and same-eid for quite a few years. On the other hand, one masjid follows moon sighting, should we go with that one masjid which is far away or stick with the majority? (U.S.A)

Click here (http://www.shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/2306.php) to listen to the answer.

[eat-halal guy]

Assalaamualaikum,

Respected Maulana,

I noticed the following fatwa regarding a similar situation to yours at ShariahBoard (http://www.shariahboard.com).


Walaikumussalam,

:jazak: for bringing that to my attention. It's almost similar to my situation, but not quite.

The question is regarding the city of Atlanta, where the questioner states that "nearly all masjids observe Ramadan and Eid according to Saudi Arabia." In the end, he/she states that despite that, there is one masjid (in the city) that follows moon-sighting, but it is far away (I assume from him/her). The answer given is based on the fact that there is a masjid in the city that followed actual moon-sighting.

In my post, I stated that, "If I had a choice here in Montreal, I wouldn't have fasted. But since it was unanimous here, I was in no position to break away and do my own thing."

So in other words, if there was even one masjid/organization in the city that would have started Ramadhan on Satruday, I would have followed them, which is what I'm supposed to do according to the fatwa as well.

Otherwise, I don't have much of a choice.

Unless I start my own masjid or org... :idea: :p


Wassalam,
Ziad

[Yaseen]

Salaam

In the UK we have a 50/50 split of people starting Ramadhaan on different dates. Even in my family we can't start on the same day. I think there has to be more co-operation but this is unlikely as unfortunately the ummah is so disunited.

Anyway it looks like there will be one 'id in the UK inshallah.

Wasalaam

[haqq]

Unless I start my own masjid or org...
Wassalam,
Ziad

Insha'Allah, someone has to speak the haqq. If the Ulama don't than who will???

Click Here (http://www.themajlis.net/Sections-article113-p1.html) and Here (http://www.themajlis.net/Sections-article129-p1.html)

Was-salaam,
haqq