Hanafi Fajr Time

[OneLife]

:salam:

I'm a little confused on this matter, but I believe we calculate Fajr a little differently, right?

I live in the USA, Central Standard Time, where can I get precise Salat time schedules online? Is IslamicFinder.com reliable for the Hanafi Fajr?

:ws:

[hope_n_fear]

:salam:
I didn't know there was a fiqhi difference for the timing of Fajr prayer. Could someone shed light on it please? :jazak:
:salam:

[mujahideenryder]

its not a big difference at all, u can pray the islamicfinder time.

[OneLife]

:salam:

It may not be a big deal, but it's still a fiqhi question on which I wish to follow my madhab more carefully, that's all.

ISNA time: 5:05AM
HANAFI time according to Uni of Islamic Sciencees Karachi: 4:47AM

Now I understand we're not supposed to pray before the time of the salat, so I just wanted to make sure, since there are days I may be up and wait for Fajr and then go to bed. So I'd wanna do it once it's time, and if I can do it at 4:47Am, i'd rather do it then, than wait 15 more min.

:ws:

[mujahideenryder]

:salam:

It may not be a big deal, but it's still a fiqhi question on which I wish to follow my madhab more carefully, that's all.

ISNA time: 5:05AM
HANAFI time according to Uni of Islamic Sciencees Karachi: 4:47AM

Now I understand we're not supposed to pray before the time of the salat, so I just wanted to make sure, since there are days I may be up and wait for Fajr and then go to bed. So I'd wanna do it once it's time, and if I can do it at 4:47Am, i'd rather do it then, than wait 15 more min.

:ws:

what happens if u wake up at 5:05?

[ridhwan]

:salam:

If Salatul Fajr is at around 5:00am then it is best to sleep after Salatul Isha and wake up for Salatul Fajr closer to the time of Sunrise and try your best to pray Salaah in Jamaah in the Masjid for it is Wajib to perform it in congregation ( see: Taleemul Haqq etc )

Regarding IslamicFinder.org calculations you used UoIS, Karachi. However it does not include 'Parts of the USA' so it should not be used.

There is a Javascript Hyperlink ( i.e. Prayer Calculation Methods: (http://javascript) ) in the Title of the options box area when selecting the calculation method. If you click that it will provide some guidance :insh: regarding the method you should select depending on where you live. You would need to contact the relevant body to verify for certainty that the calculation time could be used for your place of residence or consult a local scholar on the recommended calculation method (i.e. 15, 18 or 19.5 degrees )


Islamic Society of North America - 15 Degrees (fajr) 15 Degrees (Isha) Parts of the USA, Canada, Parts of the UK

Muslim World League - 18 Degrees (fajr) 17 Degrees (Isha) Europe, The Far East, Parts of the USA

Egyptian General Authority of Survey - 19.5 Degrees (fajr) 17.5 Degrees (Isha) Africa, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Malaysia, Parts of the USA

If you are residing in USA then I would assume ISNA (or MWL) would be the best method for calculation.

However it is best to consult a scholar to make sure of the timings and as a precautionary measure wait some time after the entry time if one for some shari reason one is unable to perform the Salaah in Jamaah.

wAllahu Aalam

[mosa707]

Assalamu alaykum,
I wish to know whether for those praying in congregation in mosque, if there is ten minutes gap from the start of adhaan and iqamah, it should be safe right?:confused: I have come across one or 2 salafi saying astronomical calculation is wrong. Jazakallah khair

[ammardiwan]

Note:

I would like to clarify that there is no such thing as "Hanafi Fajr Time."

The different methods for calculation are NOT based on madhabs but rather on your geographical location. You would choose the method that would be most accurate given where you live.

[IlyasLahoz]

http://onlineislamicstore.com/b6627.html

In addition to the issue of the Qibla in N. America, Sheikh Nuh also addresses issues such as calculating prayer times etc.

[yearningheart]

Assalamu alaykum.
I follow the opinion of Shaykh Nuh (Allah preserve him!) on the earlier Fajr, especially as he is an expert in Hanafi and Shafi' fiqh.
I'm having problems deciding what time to pray Isha. it varies by as much as an hour in the Uk at the moment.
To add to the confusion, I came across this today:
http://www.moonsighting.com/prayer.html
saying that Islamic Finder is unreliable.

Can anyone point me to reliable Hanafi prayer times for Fajr and Isha.

Jazakallahu khairan.

[ENIGMA]

Anyone got an audio of Shaykh Nuh on this subject?

Yes, I too reside in the UK and believe me, this is a hotly contested issue which I believe the ulema are not very forth coming. 15 degrees or 18 degrees? The difference in time can be alot especially as summers now approaching.

Then theres the whole Fajr at 2am and wether you can or not.

[Ali al-Hanafi]

:salam:

1. If you don't mind me asking, what is Shaykh Nuh's (damat baraktuhum) opinion on the timing of Fajr Salat?

2. There is ikhtilaf on the start time of Isha in the UK and I do not know too much about it myslef but in such cases, it is advised to follow the opinion of an Alim in whose knowledge and understanding you trust in the most. A useful Fatwa from AskImam on the 15 or 18 degrees issue can be read here (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=c955f46d5b001f9c216672129c6eb313)

[ENIGMA]

Dosent help, Ali, if both sides just call each other of being wrong. And I have confidence in alims from both sides, so what does one do then.

If both sides said there is ikhtilaaf and one can follow either then it would be great. But I found each side says they are right and the other is wrong. Atleast where I come from, so........

[Ifrah]

Anyone got an audio of Shaykh Nuh on this subject?

Yes, I too reside in the UK and believe me, this is a hotly contested issue which I believe the ulema are not very forth coming. 15 degrees or 18 degrees? The difference in time can be alot especially as summers now approaching.

Then theres the whole Fajr at 2am and wether you can or not.

at 2??? its from 2.44 to 5.19 in the timetable I have.

I still don't understand this issue and everyone is saying different stuff so I just pray after 11pm when I know for sure it is Isha time.

[ENIGMA]

The 2am issue is further on isnsummer, like in July I think. In scotland, most,if not all masajids pray the FAjr Salaah at 2am or even 1.30 am, during a certain period in the summer time.

This issue, will be flaring up even more as every year Ramadhan get's closer to the summer. It is such an important issue but most people, alims and non alims are just either ignoring the situation or just saying nothing.

Like this year in Ramadhan, the Fajr beginning time was about 20 minutes before the calender in my local masjid, and come to think of it, my town. Now, due to me knowing about this issue, I used to close my fast(stop eating) 20 or so minutes beofre what it said on the timetable. But most people do not know about this issue.

That is why the ulema need to sort this out as the laymen will just cause fitna.

[mosa707]

at 2??? its from 2.44 to 5.19 in the timetable I have.

I still don't understand this issue and everyone is saying different stuff so I just pray after 11pm when I know for sure it is Isha time.

You are a sister. what about those who want to pray with jamaath?

[Ifrah]

that wasn't an attack on anyone. Also I know many sisters who go for jamaath although i don't go.
Its an issue that should be discussed by the Ulema especially in Ramadan there will be problems but I have even heard different opinions from the Imams here.
the other day my fiqh teacher was telling me that Isha time starts just after ten whereas in the timetable I have, it's 11.09. It doesn't really help that people have such differing opinions so I would rather be on the safe side and pray after 11 : )

[mosa707]

well no confusion here in singapore. there is only one mufti. we just follow him.

[yearningheart]

Assalamu alaykum. As far as long fasts are concerned, I was in my teens in the mid-eighties when the fasts were in the middle of June. People didn't think twice about it the timings - often we stayed up till after Fajr and got up for school in the morning. A lot of people would nap after Asr. Alhamdulillah.

Here are couple of answers at Sunnipath:

Isha/fajr in extreme latitudes (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1842&CATE=98)

Fasting in extreme latitudes (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1947&CATE=6)



wa billahi tawfiq

[Mustafa]

Bismillah

As-salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah

Shaykh Nuh's opinion is to follow the 18 degree angle of the sun for fajr. He does not consider the 15 degree calculation to be haram, however, just a rukhsa. He tested the 18 degree calculation in the deserts of Jordan and found it to be accurate (there is, however, an argument that what applies in the middle east doesn't neccesarily apply here in the UK).

My former Imam (who is a Dar ul Uloom, Bury graduate) said to use the following website to calculate an 18 degree fajr:

http://websurf.nao.rl.ac.uk/

After clicking on the accept terms bit, click on 'Prayers' then input the name of your town/city. After clicking on your hometown, select 'Astronomical Twilight' (which is the scientific term for the 18 degree angle) and the date range you want.

You should then get a table with twilight, sunrise, transit, shadow 1, etc, etc. The first 'twilight' column is te beginning of fajr. So, for example, if I input London and then astronomical twilight, fajr time comes out at 2:44 am for the 6th of May.

Hope this helps, and Allah knows best.

Wa s-salam

[yearningheart]

Wa alaykummus salam wa rahmatullah Sidi Mustafa,
May Allah increase you with every moment, ameen.

[belal1]

As salamu alaikum,

You don't have to use IslamicFinder.org you know. You can use Athan (their own program) and it has a option to change the prayer times between Standard (Shafi, maliki, hanbali) and Hanafi. The hanafi option shows that only the asr prayer time changes, which is about a little longer than the timing found via the "Standard" method.

disclaimer: this is not a fatwa, just a recommendation.

as salamu alaikum

[Habib]

I found these notes by Moustafa Elqabbany <elqabbany at yahoo dot com> on Prayer time calculations, they are well though out. Hope this helps.


Assalamu alaikum & Eid Mubarak to you all.

I've worked on and dealt with prayer calendars for
some time, and I'd like to document what I've
observed/learned to date in the hopes that it might
help out future efforts. I currently don't have time
to code for this or other projects.

Furthermore, I am not an expert in fiqh or astronomy.
I'm just listing what I've learned and observed.
Fiqh-wise, I am strongest in the Shafi'i school, so my
comments are probably biased in that way.

Contents:
I. Differences in Fiqh
II. Differences in Astronomy
III. Differences in Outlying Areas

I. Differences in Fiqh

1. I (personally) don't know of any fiqh difference
in computing fajr. The position of the Shafi'is and
the strongest position of the Hanafis is that it is
when a white light spreads horizontally across the
horizon.

1a. For sunrise (which is significant because it
marks the end of fajr), it is when the least part of
the sun rises above the horizon. There has been some
concern that some calculation methods use the time
when the sun is mid-disk above the horizon, which is
obviously not what we're after.

2. For dhuhr, the Shafi'is and Hanafis I have
observed have no qualms about praying a short while
after zenith, which is a well-known computation.
(Actually, many prayer calendars list zenith time as
dhuhr, which is not quite accurate. One is not
allowed to pray when the sun is at its zenith, but in
the Shafi'i school, one can pray almost immediately
after this.) However, the Malikis I have observed
delay dhuhr quite a bit. I don't know their fiqh
criterion, but could probably find out.

3. For asr, the three schools: Shafi'i, Hanbali, and
Maliki pray when the length of the shadow of an object
is the length of the object plus the length of the
shadow when the sun is at its zenith. The dominant
position of the Hanafis is when the length of the
shadow is twice the length of the object. (I don't
know if the Hanafis require one to add the length of
the shadow at zenith to this.)

4. For maghrib, there really isn't a difference of an
opinion, so long as one is sure the entire disk of the
sun is below the horizon. Some calendars apparently
list sunset as when the sun is mid-disk below the
horizon, which is plainly wrong.

5. Personally, I find that most prayer calendars are
seriously lacking in computing isha according to the
Shafi'i school. Isha in the Shafi'i school is when
red twilight has disappeared. The dominant position
of the Hanafis is that it occurs when *white* twilight
has disappeared. The difference is enormously
significant. I'm not sure what the other schools say.
Furthermore, what I have listed here as the Shafi'i
position is the position of fatwa within the school.

II. Differences in Astronomy

The differences in astronomy only affect computation
of fajr and isha times in my experience.

1. For fajr time, there is a wide array of opinions.
MWL (The Muslim World League), the majority of
Indo-Pakistani scholars of fiqh, and Sheikh Nuh Keller
(an American living in Jordan who went out to the
Jordanian desert to measure prayer times) have
published that the correct value is when the sun is 18
degrees below the horizon. ISNA (The Islamic Society
of North America) uses a value of 15 degrees. I have
seen some other opinions as well. The ISNA fajr is
far later than fajr according to the other means.

2. For isha time, ISNA also uses a value of 15
degrees and bases this on the Hanafi definition of
isha. In one of its decrees, MWL declared isha to
enter at 17 degrees based on the Shafi'i definition of
isha. This cannot be reconciled because Shafi'i isha
is supposed to be far earlier than Hanafi isha and a
value of 17 degrees will yield a later isha. I have
seen other values used, such as 18 and 19 degrees.
However, all of these values seem far too late for the
computation of Shafi'i isha. Go out to where you can
have clear view of the western horizon on a clear
night and observe for yourself when the red
disappears. (Not the yellow, but the red.) You will
find it disappears even earlier than the time listed
for 15 degrees. Some research and publication is
needed in this area.

Note: using 18 degrees for fajr leads to an *earlier*
time than using 15 degrees while using 18 degrees for
isha leads to a *later* time than using 15 degrees.
The proof of this is left as an exercise for the
reader. :)

III. Differences in Outlying Areas

In some parts of the world, prayer times are not
easily computable. In Vancouver, there is no Hanafi
isha in the summer. Furthermore, no published value
of fajr will work during some summer nights. Even
before the calculatins stop working entirely, one
finds fajr times of approximately 1:30 am using the 18
degree value! Fuqaha and astronmers have spent a lot
of time writing up on how to compute prayer times for
these areas.

However, this is an area that I don't have a lot of
knowledge about. I have read some of what the
classical Shafi'i fuqaha have written but I need to
sit with someone knowledgeable in both fiqh and
astronomy to translate the classical works into modern
calculation methods.

MWL outlined an algorithm in a decree (which I
translated) that makes computing prayer times for
areas like Vancouver easy. The decree states fiqhi
definitions and then translates them to astronomical
terms. However, upon further observation, I began to
doubt that the scholars who signed it actually agreed
with the astronomical statements. I have a feeling
that they were just agreeing with the fiqhi statements
in it. I began to get the impression that all the
astronomical statements boiled down to the conclusion
of one amatuer astronomer who wasn't a faqih.

There are a bunch of other algorithms that have been
devised, but I'm not very familiar with them.
Furthermore, I'm not really comfortable following a
calculation method unless it's based on a classical
text of fiqh while its translation into modern
astronomical terms is approved by a scholar authorized
to teach the text.

Salam,
Moustafa

Source URL: http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/general/2003/November/msg00189.html

[MujahidAbdullah]

Why do people insist on using these prayer time sceduals to pray, Rasoolullah (SAW) did not look at his digital watch, he looked at the sky. He gave us a guide to measure the times we pray, why do we need to change what he perfected. fajr comes in when you see a band of light on the horizon, not at 5:05:38.

The jews did the same thing, and in doing so earned Allahs wrath.

[Mustafa]

Why do people insist on using these prayer time sceduals to pray, Rasoolullah (SAW) did not look at his digital watch, he looked at the sky. He gave us a guide to measure the times we pray, why do we need to change what he perfected. fajr comes in when you see a band of light on the horizon, not at 5:05:38.

The jews did the same thing, and in doing so earned Allahs wrath.

Because it's no longer that easy to see a band of light on the horizon because a) we now live in built up areas with tall buildings that obscure the horizon and b) because of light pollution from all the artificial lighting we use.

Wa s-salam

[Haplo]

Assalam Mualaykum,

This is another issue where the Ulama of the UK are SILENT.

Please find attached a spreadsheet detailing all the Fajar/Isha options for Birmingham, UK.

The various columns are:

18 - 18 Degrees
15 - 15 Degrees
12 - 12 Degrees
1_7 - One Seventh of the night

This spreadsheet was sent to a number of Mufti/Ualama as to what should be done, and the response after the initial "send me the times" is .............

Also NONE of the masajid in the UK follow 18 degrees(except in the Winter), they barely follow 15, and in May, June and July forget it.

Therefore we have decided to stick our head, firmly back in the sand and pray with the local masjid!

I have great repect for the Ulama of the UK, for the ilm they undoubtedly have, but it seems that on topics most which cause the greatest confusion between us fools, they are silent.

Wassallam

[ENIGMA]

Agreed. I know a few alims that do want to say something but fear of reprisals from more senior ulema.

One young alim who I have confidence in said one can pray on 15 degree's or 18 degrees as they both have shar'ee proofs. But, one must remain on that time throughout the year and NOT chop and change when it suits.

Like I said, as years go by and Ramdhan gets closer, it will become more and mkore interesting as it will affect our times to close the fasts.

[Saeed M]

Assalam Mualaykum,

This is another issue where the Ulama of the UK are SILENT.

Please find attached a spreadsheet detailing all the Fajar/Isha options for Birmingham, UK.

The various columns are:

18 - 18 Degrees
15 - 15 Degrees
12 - 12 Degrees
1_7 - One Seventh of the night

This spreadsheet was sent to a number of Mufti/Ualama as to what should be done, and the response after the initial "send me the times" is .............

Also NONE of the masajid in the UK follow 18 degrees(except in the Winter), they barely follow 15, and in May, June and July forget it.

Therefore we have decided to stick our head, firmly back in the sand and pray with the local masjid!

I have great repect for the Ulama of the UK, for the ilm they undoubtedly have, but it seems that on topics most which cause the greatest confusion between us fools, they are silent.

Wassallam


It's really not fair to say that there is absolute no work going on in this area. I know for a fact that there is in Walthamstow, who are in the process of changing to 18 degrees for most of the year. Under advisement from Mufti Sajid from Grays(?) and Mufti Farooq sahib.

[Haplo]

It's really not fair to say that there is absolute no work going on in this area. I know for a fact that there is in Walthamstow, who are in the process of changing to 18 degrees for most of the year. Under advisement from Mufti Sajid from Grays(?) and Mufti Farooq sahib.

Assalam Mualaykum,

Alhamdulillah, I can only relate from what I have seen over the years, and people I know... I acknowledge that this is an ongoing process... It is good to see progress being made.

The only question I ask is that when they say they follow 18 degrees, are they ACTUALLY following 18 degrees when you look at the timetable. If they are following 18 degrees then I would expect Isha Jamaat in the masjid after MIDNIGHT (ie. 12am) for most of the nights in the summer .

If they are following a different criterion, then it would be good to see what the criterion is, so we can take it to our local masjid.

Wassallam

[ENIGMA]

Thats my point. If you go for 18, then you must stick to it throughout the year.

One issue I do have is that I know scholars on both sides of the argument. And what I dont like is one side brandishing the other wrong. There was an incident once where one alim just told me my isha is not done as ive prayed it before the time. Now I just did not say anything out of respect for the scholar. But this is what I mean. People may follow 15 or 18. The problem arises when sides start to brandish each other as wrong and dont just say, its a difference of opinion.

Look at the beauty of the blessed 4 schools of thought. Every person follows their own school without brandishing the others wrong. Every school of thought has their own criteria,methodology,research etc and so long as it falls within sharia and the rules pertaining to fiqh, then its all good.

Unfortunately, alot of imams do not want to pursue this as this will cause tension in their commitees and within their localities.

[Mustafa]

Assalam Mualaykum,


The only question I ask is that when they say they follow 18 degrees, are they ACTUALLY following 18 degrees when you look at the timetable. If they are following 18 degrees then I would expect Isha Jamaat in the masjid after MIDNIGHT (ie. 12am) for most of the nights in the summer .


Wa alaikum as salaam

In summer time in the UK there is no true isha time (the whiteness/redness of the sky disappears) as maghrib goes straight into fajr. It wouldn't matter what degrees angle you were using, isha doesn't 'technically' exist, so an 18 degrees prayer timetable would not have isha jamat after midnight.

Mufti Muhammad al-Kawthari said about this situation on sunnipath that:

"As far as the commencement of the Eisha time is concerned, contemporary scholars state that one can perform Eisha prayer one hour after sunset. In other words, due to the fact that Eisha time fails to appear, it can be performed at around one hour after Maghrib."

I've heard other scholars say to pray isha 1hr 10 mins after maghrib, too.

For those interested, this situation (where isha fails to physically appear) begins next week on the 13th of May and ends at the end of July.

And Allah knows best

Wa s-salam

[ENIGMA]

Very good post brother Mustafa. What you posted is true, yet alot, and I mean alot of people do not know this. Ive heard of the 1h 10 min, not of the 1h only.

Brother Mustafa, does it really last for that long, I mean the lack of redness/whiteness? An alim told me it only lasts for a few weeks and thats in July. I'l have to get it clarified :insh: .

[Ali al-Hanafi]

:salam:

I asked a Mufti about the issue and he said that Isha time doesn't begin in the UK in summer and so its time is set according to the nearest country. As far as the 15 and 18 degrees issue is concerned, then the answer from askimam posted earlier is sufficient as far as I am concerned but if anyone has more info that's no problem off-course. Allah knows best.

[Mustafa]

Brother Mustafa, does it really last for that long, I mean the lack of redness/whiteness? An alim told me it only lasts for a few weeks and thats in July. I'l have to get it clarified :insh: .

It does indeed. If you use the Nautical Office calculator (the link I posted earlier) and use the date of range of 'The Whole Year' you'll find that the two twilight columns are starred (*) out from May 13th to end of July which means (as it says on their site) that Astronomical Twilight does not apply in that time period (in Islamic terms: isha doesn't exist).

It's May 12th for your hometown, I checked ;).

Wa s-salam

[abuhajira]

:salam: br. mustafa..

is that the case with shafaq ahmar as well? I mean that in UK in those timings you do not get shafaq ahmer ?.. The calculator does give the timings for 15 degree.. for the hanafi Musalli it would rather be better to opt for Sahibeyn opinion instead of a third opinion..

:ws:

[Mustafa]

Wa alaikum as salaam wa rahmatullah

I honestly don't know the terminology. I know the 'whiteness in the sky' is referred to as 'shafaq al-abyadh.' This whiteness has to depart in order for isha to begin for Hanafis. From mid-May to late July it doesn't depart in the UK.

And Allah knows best

Wa s-salam

[Habib]

Why do people insist on using these prayer time sceduals to pray, Rasoolullah (SAW) did not look at his digital watch, he looked at the sky. He gave us a guide to measure the times we pray, why do we need to change what he perfected. fajr comes in when you see a band of light on the horizon, not at 5:05:38.

The jews did the same thing, and in doing so earned Allahs wrath.

That comment doesn't really make sense, and i feel using those words "......digital watch" is a bit disprespectful, if you are trying to be sarcastic, thats not really necessary.

In addition to what Mustafa mentioned, MashAllah Muslims live in all parts of the world, according to what you have mentioned what should Muslims living in the NW coast of US do? they have more cloudy days in a year then non-cloudy. How about the muslims who live further north, both in europe and NA, the ones who live with closer proximity to both the poles ? muslims travel all over the world all the time for business etc etc can you provide all of those categories (and i am sure there are more) with guidance ? some people did, they are our Imams, so we don't have to do that work.

Looking at the time table is knowing the location of the sun, hence when u do that, you know the time of prayer. Anyways the last line is a bit harsh, it gives me an indication of your mentality, i won't get into that, but i think it was totally not necessary.

Regards

[abuhajira]

Wa alaikum as salaam wa rahmatullah

I honestly don't know the terminology. I know the 'whiteness in the sky' is referred to as 'shafaq al-abyadh.' This whiteness has to depart in order for isha to begin for Hanafis. From mid-May to late July it doesn't depart in the UK.

And Allah knows best

Wa s-salam

:salam:

Jazak Allah for your sincerety.. May Allah accept you.

Yes the established opinion is the departing of white twilight is Shafq Abyadh which is mostly attributed to 18 deg. However the Sahibeyn (Imam Muhammad and Imam Abu Yusuf r.am) are of the opinion that Ishaa start with departing of Shafq Ahmer which is 15 deg. Please read the link of askimam provided before It explains it. In places where shafaq abyad does not depart it would be better to first opt for the Sahibeyn's opinion of ahmer (15deg).

Then in places where even that does not enter, one can look for the closer city that does has the plausable timing.

:ws:

[al_Zayn]

:salam: Br Abu Hajirah, is it possible that you can clarify for that if the time [Waqt] for Isha doesn't kick in, i.e. it doesn't go dark, then there is no Isha? and if one misses it on purpose there is no blame? Nurul Iydhah apparently mentions it, but what is the real Fatwa on this issue?

and regarding Fajr time, here in the UK, in around 8 days time a local masjid will have the fajr start time at 1:20am, and another local masjid will have it 2:45 am [the latter being the most widely spread across town]..majority are hanafis deobandis run....i asked a 'Alim and he says that according the Fatwa and Hanafi conditions, that first one is right..does that mean one can follow the 1:20 am start of Fajr Salah?

:ws:

[KeepTheGazeDown]

:salam: Br Abu Hajirah, is it possible that you can clarify for that if the time [Waqt] for Isha doesn't kick in, i.e. it doesn't go dark, then there is no Isha? and if one misses it on purpose there is no blame? Nurul Iydhah apparently mentions it, but what is the real Fatwa on this issue?

and regarding Fajr time, here in the UK, in around 8 days time a local masjid will have the fajr start time at 1:20am, and another local masjid will have it 2:45 am [the latter being the most widely spread across town]..majority are hanafis deobandis run....i asked a 'Alim and he says that according the Fatwa and Hanafi conditions, that first one is right..does that mean one can follow the 1:20 am start of Fajr Salah?

:ws:

As Salaamu Alaikum

Brother i thought the majority in the UK followed the 1:20am time. Perhaps im mistaken. You can follow that although there is a difference of opinion.

and Allah Knows Best.

[al_Zayn]

As Salaamu Alaikum

Brother i thought the majority in the UK followed the 1:20am time. Perhaps im mistaken. You can follow that although there is a difference of opinion.

and Allah Knows Best.

:salam:


well maybe Majority are, but observing my local Masajid, they [Majority of them dont follow it]

but when does this 1:20 am Waqt exactly start this month?

:jazak:

:ws:

[Mustafa]

The 1.20am fajr starts next week and runs until the end of July.

My local deobandi masjid used to have two jamats; one at 1.30 am and one at about 4am. This was when the imam was a young Dar ul Uloom graduate.

Just to clarify: I wasn't trying to advocate one position over the other. My responses on this thread were for the question about how to do fajr according to Shaykh Nuh's 18 degree recommendation (which he asked his murids to comply to). For those of us who follow the Shaykh, fajr in the UK will be around 1.20 - 1.30 am from next week. It certainly isn't wrong to follow the other positions.

And Allah knows best.

Wa s-salam

[ozgurislam]

As salamu aleykum,

I think the topic starter means the differance between Hanafis and Shafis of what the mustahab time for Fajr is.

Like;

If Fajr is at 3.30 and Shuruq at 5.50

Then for Hanafi the best time is to pray just before 5.50, this based on the ahadith that fajr at dawn set is more rewarding.

However for Shafis they pray rightly when fajr time enters.

I think the topic-starter ment this?

[abuhajira]

:salam: forumhunter,

it cannot be shuruq.. since fajr time ends at the begining of the sunrize.. while shuruq is when the whole sun comes out of horizon ..

The hanafi mustahab time is approx 20 - 30 min before sunrize (tuloo') to pray approx 40 ayaat and still have enough time to repray that same amound should there be a mistake in the salah.

:ws:

[Haplo]

People may follow 15 or 18.


Assalam Mualaykum,

Without getting bogged down on the issue of whether 15 or 18 degrees is BETTER ......

Can someone please show me a salah timetable in the UK where Fajr / Isha is performed at either 15 or 18 degrees, when they are available in the summer.

Wassallam

[daywalk3r]

AsalaamzWW - still reading up on this and inshallah seeking the guidance of good sincere UK graduted local ulama in my area.

I can confirm though that Masjid Umer in Walthamstow did formally change there salaat times this month as confirmed in the salaat timetable section on their website www.masjideumer.org.uk

[Ansari]

You can read this booklet about the reason why we have different prayer times for Isha and Fajr: http://www.moonsighting.com/articles/fajr&isha-yam.pdf

The main issue is when Subh Kadhib (false light) and Fajr Sadiq (beginning time of Fajr) sets in, which is not really known and different according the area one resides in. Then we have also people who calculate the time by degrees (15 or 18 or sometimes even 19 or 12), which according to the above author is wrong, because we need to see (mushahada) for ourselves first, when subh kadhib really sets in and when the true beginning time of Fajr has started.

This is why the scholars have said one should pray Fajr after 20 minutes of the beginning time:


This is precisely what Mufti Shafi’ RA as well as Mufti Rashid Ahmed Ludhianvi RA suspected. Both eminent scholars of deen have commented that the timetables using 18 degrees for Subha Sadiq are likely to be using either the time of Zodiacal light or Subha Kadhib, and whilst this is acceptable as far as sawm (fasting) is concerned, the Fajar prayer is affected if performed at beginning time. Both have advised that Fajar, in these circumstances, should be performed at least 20 minutes after the beginning time shown in Pakistan timetables.

Now what I don't seem to get is. When you calculate Fajr by 18 degrees, does that mean that Fajr starts later or earlier than the 15 or 12 degrees one?

It seems we can divide the differences in Fajr times into the Arab community and the Indian/Pakistani community who have differences in their Fajr time for more than 20 minutes.

We have a right to know who calculates our prayer times and how this is done, and what the exact reasons are for the differences. The fact remains that according to 1 calendar one's fast is invalid, and according to another one, one's prayer is invalid if prayed too early.

So far I have only got to know is that some scientist residing in Germany, allied with Majma al-fiqh al-islami in Jeddah calculates the prayer times for people from the Arab community.

[muhammadnur]

:salam:

Check out

http://sacredlearning.org/classrooms/ramadan/index.htm

Part 5 - The Requirements of Ramadan

deals with the 15 and 18 degree issue.

[Ansari]

http://sacredlearning.org/classrooms/ramadan/index.htm

Part 5 - The Requirements of Ramadan

deals with the 15 and 18 degree issue.

It starts at 7:00 minutes and ends at 15:30: http://sacredlearning.org/audio/ramadan/1428/requirements_ramadan.m3u

He first sums up the different degrees used to calculate fajr. The University of Karachi uses 18 degrees beneath the horizon. The Muslim World Leage uses also the same. Umm al-Qura uses 19 degrees. The Egyptian Authority uses 19,5 and US uses 15 degrees.

He recommends 18 degrees because it is safer and it is supposed to be the majority for 1400 years. The 18 degrees timetable is earlier and thus safer, while with the 15 degrees timetable, fajr begins later. And this is essential in Ramadan.

For example 18 degrees is 5:00 and 15 degrees is 5:20.

But he is mistaken if he would say that nobody prays fajr at the beginning time.

He also said that only the US uses 15 degrees, which i don't think is correct.

[ENIGMA]

Ive been following the 18 degree privately for a few years now. Unfortunately, not one masjid in my town follows 18 but all follow 15, so in previous years, ive just prayed Salah.

Ive asked alims and the standard response is ' difference of opinion'. Thats fine, but when I ask about explaining the diffreence, they just come up with some story and not answer. Only one alim has answered my queries and provided litarature to explain.

This is what bugs me. I dont think its causing a fitna to want know the various opinions of scholars,past and present, on various issues.

Like Brother Nawawi said on another thread, unfortunately, not knowing of differences of opinions has breeded ignorance in the masses, and thus,anybody that does not do what one does, is labelled as 'wrong'.

[krazy_angel23]

Like Brother Nawawi said on another thread, unfortunately, not knowing of differences of opinions has breeded ignorance in the masses, and thus,anybody that does not do what one does, is labelled as 'wrong'.

sometimes it is in the interest of the masses that the ikhtilafaat (difference of opinons) are kept amongst the ulema only and the raajih aqwaal ( prevailent opinions) are presented for the masses to do amal on. otherwise it just results to confusion and can result to fitnah when the people begin to look at all the opinions and just pick the one that suits them. i am not in any way implying that u r doing this but it is a fact in most muslims nowadays who think they can follow the shariah without adopting the taqleed of one of the four imams r.a who by far understood the fiqh more better and deeper than us.

[ENIGMA]

Im not talking about differences in different schools. Im talking about discussing valid differences within the same school. Telling me about the difference of opinion major hanafi scholars had on a issue is not going to cause fitna.

If one wants to know the differences to pick and choose, that I dont agree with. Its like knowing the differences between the rulings of Imam Abu Hanifa and to those of his students. By knowing both opinions, one realises that there is leeway in a particular masa'il.

[krazy_angel23]

By knowing both opinions, one realises that there is leeway in a particular masa'il.

please explain how you got to that conclusion.

if you personally want to know the differences to enhance your own knowledge about the Hanafi fiqh then thats a good thing but i don't think that will make a difference to the masses because at the end of the day they will be doing amal on the raajih qaul regardless.

its like medical science we leave it all to the doctors and just take what they prescribe us. if a patient starts asking about the medicines production and why this medicine for this illness e.t.c the doctor wont reply cos he'll be like thats my job i've worked out all the hard bits for you leave me to it you just take what im giving you now. similarly with the ulema, so u cant blame an aalim or mufti for not explaining detailed ikhtilaaf to the masses. the ulema are doing the hard job for us, lets leave them to it. unless we wish to take that job on us too n become alims then subhanAllah you'll find all the ikhtilafs in fiqh kitaabs. some v probably never even thought about.