Where is Allah? [Archive] - sunniforum.com - a resource for the propagation of authentic Islamic teachings

true_hanafi

07-10-2004, 10:13 AM

Assalam Alaikum

I went to ask-imam website, i am bit confused, my question is where is Allah? can brothers/sisters answer this, and quote deobandis scholars.
Inshallah

wassalam
True_Hanafi

Mustafa

07-10-2004, 11:04 AM

bismillah

Wa alaikum as salaam

The Creator of time and space is not bound by the laws that He created. If Allah were in a 'place' then that would imply that He has a physical form (as only physical forms are bound by the six directions - up, down, front, back, left, right - of space) and that He is dwelling within His Creation (as the six directions of space are created by Him) and this is haraam to believe. In short, Allah is independent of time and space.

The Deobandi position is the same as the position as the rest of Ahl-us-Sunnah. Mufti Desai speaks of it HERE (http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1976)

And Allah knows best

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

Mustafa

07-10-2004, 11:19 AM

Also, take a look at the Aqidah at-Tahawiyya HERE (http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/tahawi.htm) specifically the following points:

8 - No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.

9 - He is different from any created being.

34 - Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings.

38 - He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.

50 - He is independent of the Throne and what is beneath it.

And Allah knows best

Mossy

07-10-2004, 11:38 AM

To summarise, the question makes no sense.

A D I D A S

07-10-2004, 01:19 PM

Brother Mossy : ) : ) : )

A D I D A S

07-10-2004, 01:20 PM

or a muslim to ask, where is allah makes no sense.
If kafir asked, that would be undstndble

UmmIbrahimIsa

07-10-2004, 05:08 PM

or a muslim to ask, where is allah makes no sense.
If kafir asked, that would be undstndble

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

usually ppl ask what they dont know and to make fun of them it would be wrong or offensive.

better to tell them straight out truthfully about it rather than say how can you not know? as you cannot blame them for asking this as perhaps some said to them Allah is here or there, or up etc... when we should say about it.

IN answer to your ?s on where is Allah, HIS knowledge is everywhere, HIS POWER is everywhere. HE has no need to be in a certain place,

why dont you take an aqeedah class on sunnipath then you can learn about it from a qualified scholar?

Mossy

07-10-2004, 05:22 PM

or a muslim to ask, where is allah makes no sense.
If kafir asked, that would be undstndble

Not really.. If you agree with someone (for the purposes of discussion) that there is a God who createed the universe, then that person would have to accede that God (assuming he existed) would not be subject to definitions which only exist within the context of this universe.

suhayl

07-10-2004, 05:32 PM

Salaams

I have an explanation...(might be beneficial or otherwise)

However I don't know if it is jaa'iz for me to type it up.

Therefore I will consult an alim and then if jaa'iz, I will post up the explanation.

Ansari

07-10-2004, 05:58 PM

I thought there where some traditional scholars who did claimed that Allah is above....

Mossy

07-10-2004, 06:12 PM

They were speaking arabic, not English ;)

UmmIbrahimIsa

07-10-2004, 09:01 PM

I thought there where some traditional scholars who did claimed that Allah is above....

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

perhaps they mean HIS Power is High or HIS Knowledge is Above all, rather than saying HE is up there as this would limit HIM to a certain place when HE has no need to be in one or that would limit HIM to being there when HE is limitless.

Allahu Alim

UmmIbrahimIsa

07-10-2004, 09:02 PM

What comptelation leads us to understand, the intellect and reflect, as creation in itself is that it came from nothing, therefore is non existence. The proof lies that it requires a Creator.

So that would mean Allah created that place high above, so by saying HE is there is saying it is limited to where HE is, when HE is the Creator of that and has no need to be in a certain place.

His Knowledge and Power is everywhere, All the things has signs of His Power, His Knowledge, and that He is One.

Allahu Alim.

Omar HH

07-10-2004, 09:28 PM

I think the entire question is summarized by that link of Mufti Desai quoting Malik (RA)

"Imaam Maalik was asked about the Aayat in Surah Taaha, 'Allah is above His Ársh', he answered 'Being above (Istawaa) is known but the reality is unknown and - questioning that - is innovation.' Jaaluddin Suyyuti also comments on the Aayat saying, 'Istawaa (being above) according to whatever is appropriate for Allah. (Jalaalayn vol. 2 p. 260)."

And I don't think after that point any further questioning is necessary.

Jazakallah wa Khayrun

Abdul

08-10-2004, 07:31 AM

Salam

Taken from Daruliftaa.org

Q: How should a Muslim respond to where Allah Almighty is? As this is great Aqidah confusion between the ummah.

A:In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

The issue of “Where is Allah?” is something that was never debated or made a matter of dispute among the Muslims throughout the ages and eras. Unfortunately, due to immense ignorance about our deen, certain Muslims spend and waist their precious time arguing about petty and trivial issues and forget about their real duties and responsibilities.

The belief (aqidah) one must have regarding his Lord and Creator is that Allah Almighty is One, there is nothing like Him, there is nothing that can overwhelm Him, there is no god besides Him and He is Eternal without a beginning and Enduring without end. He will neither perish nor come to an end and nothing happens except what He wills. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him. He is different from any created being.

Allah Most High says about Himself:

“There is nothing whatever unto like Him.” (Surah al-Shura, 11).

And He says in Surah al-Ikhlas:

“And there is none like unto Him.” (112: 4).

Due to the above and other texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah, one of the major beliefs a Muslim must have regarding Allah Most High is that there is no creation that is similar to Him. If Allah is regarded to be similar or resemble or have any qualities of His creation, then that would constitute disbelief (Kufr).

Imam Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“Whoever thinks that Allah has a body made of organs, then he is an idol-worshipper…Whosoever worships a body is regarded a disbeliever by the consensus of all the scholars, the early scholars (salaf) and the late (muta’akhirun)” (Iljam al-Anam an Ilm al-Kalam, 6-8).

If one believes that there is nothing similar to Allah in any way, then his Aqidah is correct and there is no need for disputes and arguments. I believe that there isn’t a Muslim that really believes that Allah is similar to his creation in any way, thus disputes and arguments must be avoided. Yes, if one does believe that Allah has hands, feet, face, etc…that is similar to his creation, then without doubt this person would come out of the fold of Islam.

Regarding the question, “where is Allah?” firstly, it should be remembered that this is not something that one will be asked about on the day of Qiyamah. We are in need of people really learning about the basics of Islam, rather than engaging themselves in these matters. Those that argue and cause destruction with such issues are normally ignorant about even the basics of Salat, Zakat, Hajj, etc… We need to really wake up and smell the coffee!

Secondly, this question in itself is wrong. We ask regarding the whereabouts of a person that lives in time and space. For example, I encompass time, meaning I live in time, and I have a body that needs to fill some space.

However, Allah, Mighty and Majestic, is the creator of time and space. If we limit Him to any time or space, then this would imply that we resemble Him to his creation by giving Him a body, as space is limited. If one was to say that Allah is everywhere, then this is wrong, as ‘everywhere’ is limited and ends somewhere, whereas Allah is not limited.

Similarly, to say that Allah is on earth, sky, moon, sun, throne, etc… is also wrong, as all these things are limited and to limit Allah to any created thing is Kufr.

Imam al-Tahawi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his famous al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

“He (Allah) is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by six directions as all created things are.” (P. 9).

Imam al-Nasafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“He (Allah) is not a body (jism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (ma’dud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-ma’hiya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in space (al-makan), and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him, that is to say, nothing is like Him.” (See: Sa’d al-Din al-Taftazani & Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqa’id al- Nasafiyya, 92-97).

In conclusion, one must have the Aqidah that Allah Most High is pure from space and time. It is wrong to say that He is everywhere and it is also wrong to believe that He is on something, as all these are limited whereas Allah Almighty is limitless. However, we must believe that His knowledge encompasses everything, and he knows, sees and listens to everything.

And Allah knows best

Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK

waheedah

09-10-2004, 02:57 PM

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh alail muslimeen

Another piece of thought...

The Importance of Correct Belief
by Zain al-Mahmood Syed

Alhamdu Lillah was-Salaatu was Salaamu ala Rasoolillah

All Praise to Allah, the Sustainer of the Worlds, and Salat on His Messenger

In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficient, Most Merciful

Humans have the tendency to worship power. Over the millennia, divinity has been attributed to symbols of power by bemused minds. The sun, the moon, mountains, the sea, fire, prophets, emperors -all these have been deified from time to time. Islam condemns this and declares Allah Ta'ala to be the source of all power.

Every prophet, from Adam (AS) to Muhammad (SAWS) invited people to Tawheed. Therefore all nations have in their faith some concept of a supreme God. But they attributed false notions to God, and corrupted their beliefs.

One insidious error is anthropomorphism, the tendency to imagine God in our own shape and pattern, and attributing physical qualities to Him. Nations that failed to grasp the idea of One God who exists beyond the senses, imagined God as having a body and limbs, who lived and procreated, loved and hated, and who dwelt somewhere "in the sky" or on a mountaintop, or appeared incarnate in human beings. (I seek refuge with Allah from such thoughts). It is anthropomorphism that led people to idolatry.

The Qur'an scoffs at shaping (Tamtheel) and declares: Laisa ka mithlihee shaiyy

"There is nothing whatsoever like Him." (Ash-Shura 42:11)

At the other extreme is the belief of the Jahmiya or Mu'tazila who deny that Allah's attributes are eternal. This is clearly wrong. If Allah Ta'ala is eternal, it follows that His attributes must also be eternal. They cannot change, nor can He lose them, or acquire new ones. Allah is Absolute, and His Attributes are also Absolute.

Both of the above beliefs are equally wrong. It must be understood that Allah, the Most Exalted, is above and beyond our senses and our logic. We know nothing about Allah Ta'ala, except what He has revealed in His Book, and through the authentic Sunnah of His prophet (SAWS). Any extreme view or the use of vulgar imagination is bound to lead us astray.

The Ulema Mutaqaddimeen or early scholars were unanimous in taking a centrist view, although many of their followers have veered off to one extreme or another.

Imam Ibn Taimiyah clearly wrote, "The Saved Group, the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah, believe these things (revealed in Qur'an and Sunnah) without denying or distorting (Tahreef) and without asking "how" (Takyif) or shaping (Tamtheel); rather they comprise the center of the Ummah, as the Ummah comprises the center of all nations."

We find in the Qur'an and Sunnah references to Allah's Hands, His Face, His Eye, His Presence, His Laughter, His Rushing etc. It is the unanimous opinion of the great early scholars that these must be accepted, and whatever Allah meant by them is true. We cannot take them literally, nor can we hope to arrive at a correct figurative meaning. We have not been told, so we simply don't know. And understanding it is beyond our ability, and knowing it is not a necessary part of our Iman.

Let us take an example: The Hands of Allah.

The Qur'an says:

"Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah. He grants them to whom He wishes.." ( 3:73)

"The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He gives and spends (of His bounty) as He pleases." (Maidah 5:64)

There are those who would like to take the Hand literally. But that is clearly wrong for the following reasons:

Taken literally, a hand means a forelimb, with a palm and dorsum, fingers and nails. To attribute that to Allah would be to ascribe a shape to the Almighty (Tamtheel wa Tashbeeh).
In the hadith we find references like "The Hand of Allah is on the Jamah (Party of believers)," and "Allah accepts Zakat and takes it in His Right Hand."
It is obvious, then, that "Hand" is not meant literally. On the other hand, we do not know what exactly is meant by it. So the safest and most correct aqeedah is to accept it and say, "Whatever Allah means by it is true."

When asked about the "Istawa ala al-Arsh" (Being established on the Arsh), Imam Malik Bin Anas (R) said, "Al-istawa ma'loom wal kaif majh-hool" - "Istawa is known, but the nature of it is unknown."

Imam Suyuti said, 'Istawaa (being above) according to whatever is appropriate for Allah."

There are those who claim that Allah is located over the Arsh and try to reason away equally strong verses regarding His closeness to His servants. The two kinds of verses seem contradictory only to those who try to understand Allah by physical parameters. Unlike His servants, Allah does not need to occupy a defined space.

Imam Ibn Taimiyah wrote in Al-aqeedatul Wasitiyah, "All that Allah mentioned - that He is on the Throne and that He is with us - true in itself, does not warrant distortion, and must be protected from false conjectures…..What has been revealed in the Book and in the Sunnah about His Closeness and His Concomitance, does not contradict what has been told of His Exaltation and Highness. Indeed, Glory be to Him, there is none like unto Him in all His Attributes. He is High in His Nearness and Near in His Highness."

The Qur'an lays down the law regarding this: "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (Alu-Imran 3:7)

Mossy

09-10-2004, 04:25 PM

Ahhh.. Not the hands discussion again..

*headexplodes*

adaab

10-10-2004, 12:56 PM

Don't think the discussion was on hands. I thought it was nicely explained on the danger of thamtheel.

I like this the best :

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (Alu-Imran 3:7)

Ansari

22-04-2005, 10:18 AM

A total different answer:

if a wahabi (salafi) ask us(deobandi) where is Allah, then what should a laymen reply?

The answer to your question is as follows:

Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta’alah is, indeed, omnipresent. He is present everywhere.

A common person who is asked about the existence of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta’ah can simply reply that Allah Subahanhu Wa Ta’la is over the heavens. The Glorious Qur’an says, “The Beneficent One is established on the throne (of authority)”. (Suratu Taha: 20/5)

And Allah knows the best,

Mohd. Shihabuddin Qasmi
Mufti, ODI, MMERC, Mumbai
http://www.markazulmaarif.org/index1.asp?x=darul

I guess there is nothing wrong when salafi's say that, since sunni's tell the same?

Crono

22-04-2005, 04:29 PM

Allah does not gain or loose attributes...he existed before time and creation...thus he does not have the attributes of time or place

and for the new people...

there is a diffrence between THINKING or haveing a thought that is blasphemous..and BELIEVEING the blasphemy

Husain

22-04-2005, 06:39 PM

The best answer I found to give to a wahabi asking the question is: أنت مبتدع
"You are an innovater" based on Imam Maliks statement
"السؤال عنه بدعة"
Asking about it is bidah

faqir

22-04-2005, 06:53 PM

Assalam Alaikum

i am bit confused, my question is where is Allah?

No "where".

Allahu Maujoodun Bila Makaan.

samrqandi

22-04-2005, 10:39 PM

Assakaamu Alaikum wa Rahamtullahi wa barakatuhu

Inshallah below will him answering your question brother. However any mistakes are from me since i have had time to check the english, so if any mistakes are seen do tell me jazak allah. some of the notes are taken from shaykh abdullahs sharh to aqeeda ibn asakir.

Imam tahawi has said in his aqeeda tahawiyyah:

وتعالى عن الحدود والغايات، والأركان والأعضاء والأدوات، لا تحويه الجهات الست كسائر المبتدعات.

He is clear of being attributed with having limits, nor ends, nor having parts, nor organs, nor limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are. Matn aqeeda tahawiyyah.

Al-imam Ahmad ar-Refai has said:

قال الإمام أحمد الرفاعي رضي الله عنه في شرح قوله تعالى:- "ليس كمثله شىء": " والله تعالى كان ولا مكان ليس بجسم ولا جوهر ولا عرض ولا على مكان ولا في مكان، بل كان جلّت عظمته ولا زمان ولا مكان" . ا.ه

Whilst commenting upon the ayat: “laysa ka mithlihi shay” (there is nothing like him): that Allah was when there was no place, Allah is neither a body nor a substance nor contingent, he is neither on a place nor in a place. Therefore he was always great without time or space.

Al-imam Hafidth ibn asakir has said:

قال رحمه الله: "ولا يُقالُ متى كَانَ ولا أين كَانَ ولا كَيفَ". فقال رحمه الله: "كَانَ ولا مَكانَ، كَوَّنَ الأكوانَ، ودَبَّرَ الزمانَ، لا يتقيدُ بالزمانِ، ولا يَتَخَصَّصُ بالمكانِ".

“It must not be said: When was He? Or where was He? Or how is He? He existed without a place. He created the universe and willed for the existence of time. He is not bound to time and is not designated with place”.

The statement of Hafidth ibn Asakir clearly highlights:

ومعناه أن الله تعالى موجود بلا مكان وهي عقيدة أهل السنة بل والمسلمين جميعًا سلفًا وخلفًا.

That Allah exists without a place and this is the aqeeda of the ahlus sunnah and the Muslims from the salaf and the khalaf (i.e. the past Muslims and the later Muslims).

The Prophet has said:

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "كان الله ولم يكن شىء غيره" رواه البخاري والبيهقي وابن الجارود، أي كان في الأزل ولم يكن مكان ولا شىء من المخلوقات وبعد أن خلق المكان لم يتغير سبحانه وتعالى عما كان، فمن هذا الحديث وأمثاله من النصوص أخذ أهل السنة قولهم الله موجود بلا مكان.

“Allah was when there was nothing” (Saheeh al-Bukhari, al-Bayhaqi and ibn al-Jarood). Which means that his existence was in pre-eternity without nothing and the creation where created with a place and allah was not attributed with such. This hadeeth is the basis (al-nusoos) which the ahlus sunnah take to say that allah exists without a place.

وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( كان الله ولم يكن شىء غيره وكان عرشه على الماء ) . قال الحافظ ابن حجر عند شرحه لهذا الحديث : ( والمراد بكان في الأول الأزلية وفي الثاني الحدوث بعد العدم ) ا.هـ ، فالله لم يزل موجودا في الأزل ، ليس معه غيره ، لا ماء ولا هواء ولا أرض ولا سماء ولا كرسي ولا عرش ولا إنس ولا جن ولا ملائكة ولا مكان ولا زمان ، فهو تعالى موجود قبل المكان بلا مكان ، وهو الذي خلق المكان، وخلق العرش ، فليس بحاجة إلى أحد من خلقه

The prophet has said: “Allah was when there was nothing and his arsh is on the water”. Hafidth Ibn Hajr said in his commentary to this hadeeth (regarding: “his arsh is on the water”) that the meaning is that Allah is the first the eternal and the second is perishable after nothingness and Allah is eternal and nothing was with him in eternity, no water was there, including air, earth, heavens, kursi, arsh, humans or jinns, angels, no place, or time, Allah existed before a place which has no place and he is the creator of the place and the arsh, and he is not in need of anything from the creation.

وقد روى الحافظ البيهقيُّ رحمه الله حديث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "أنت الظاهر فليس فوقك شىء وأنت الباطن فليس دونك شىء" ثم قال: "استدل بعض أصحابنا بهذا الحديث على نفي المكان عن الله تعالى فإنه إذا لم يكن فوقه شىء ولا دونه شىء لم يكن في مكان" اهـ.

In the hadeeth narrated by Al-Bayhaqi and others [Muslim in his Saheeh in kitab zikr wad-dua wa-tawbah, Sunan Ibn Maja in kitab dua and Sunan Abu Dawood] which says:

أَنْتَ الظَّاهِرُ فَلَيْسَ فَوْقَكَ شَىْءٌ وَأَنْتَ الْبَاطِنُ فَلَيْسَ دُونَكَ شَىْءٌ

Which means: O Allah You are Adh-Dhaahir so nothing is above, and You are Al-Baatin, so nothing is underneath You.

Therefore, if there is nothing above Him and nothing underneath Him, He is not in a place."

Imam al-Hafidh al-Bayhaqi said in his book, Al-Asma was-Sifat, on page 400: ".... What was mentioned towards the end of the hadith is an indication of denying Allah has a place and denying the slave is alike to Allah, wherever he was in proximity or remoteness. Allah, the Exalted, is adh-Dhahir--hence, it is valid to know about Him by proofs. Allah is al-Batin--hence, it is invalid that He would be in a place." He also said: "Some of our companions used as a proof to refute the place to Allah the saying of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam: 'You are adh-Dhahir and there is nothing above You, and You are al-Batin and there is nothing underneath You.' Therefore, if there is nothing above Him and nothing underneath Him, He is not in a place."

Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib has said:

قال الإمام علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه:- " كان الله ولا مكان وهو الآن على ما عليه كان " رواه أبو منصور البغدادي في كتابه الفَرق بين الفرَق

“That Allah existed before there was a place he is as he was” as mentioned by Abdul Qahir at-Tamimi al-Baghdadi in Farq Bayn ul-Firaq.

Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, said:

" ان الله خلق العرش اظهارا لقدرته ولم يتخذه مكانا لذاته "

“Allah Ta’ala, created Al-Arsh to show his Power and Majesty, and did not make Al-Arsh as a place for Him”

Imam murtada az-zabidi has reported on the authority of Imam Zayn ul Abideen:

وروى الحافظ اللغوي محمد مرتضى الزَّبيديُّ في شرح الإحياء بالإسناد المتصل أن الإمام عليًّا زين العابدين كان يقول: "سبحانك لا يحويك مكان" اهـ، وزين العابدين كان أفضل أهل البيت في زمانه.

“That he said: glory be to you who has no place”. Imam Zayb ul abideen one of the known ahlul bayt from amongst the salaf. This saying is documented in Imam Murtada Zabidis’s sharh al ihya ulum ud deen, with a mutasil isnad.

Copying from Imam al-'Ashari, Imam al-Bayhaqi, in his book, Al-Asma' was-Sifat, page 488, said: "Allah,ta^ala, is not in a place. Movement, coming to rest, and sitting are among the attributes of bodies."

وقد قرَّر هذه العبارة من لا يحصى من علماء الإسلام كأبي حنيفة وابن جرير الطبري والماتريدي والأشعري وغيرهم بل نقل التميمي إجماع أهل السنة على أن الله موجود بلا مكان، ذكره في كتابه الفرق بين الفِرق، فلا عبرة بعد ذلك بمشبّه يعترض على المصنف وغيره من فطاحل أهل العلم في إيرادهم لهذه الكلمة القيّمة، فإنَّ من خالف ذلك وأثبت لله تعالى المكان فقد شبهه بالمخلوقات وجعله عديلا لها وخالف صريح القرءان وصحيح الحديث والعقل.

Al-imam Abdul Qahir Al-Bagdadi, rahimahullah, who is a renowned Muslim scholar from the first three centuries of Hijrah, said in his Book "The differences between sects" page333: "By consensus (of Muslim scholars) that Allah is not subject to a place nor time."

Al-imam Al-Hafedh Ibn Hajr Al-Asqalaani, radiyallahu anhu, said in " Sharhu Saheeh Al Bukhari" vol.6/136 : "The two directions up and down do not negate that Allah Ta'ala is above. Because He is above any imperfection, and it is impossible for His to be attributed with being above physically."

Al-Faqeeh Ash-Shaykh Abdul Ghani An-NabuIsi Al-Hanafi, said: “He who believes that Allah fills the heavens and earth or that He is a body sitting above al-Arsh (ceiling of Paradise, throne) is a non-believer (kafir)."

تفسير مدارك التنزيل وحقائق التأويل/ النسفي
قول علي رضي الله عنه: الاستواء غير مجهول والتكييف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة لأنه تعالى كان ولا مكان فهو على ما كان قبل خلق المكان لم يتغير عما كان.

Imam ali has reported have said: “istiwa of Allah is not unknown and the means of it is hard to imagine. To affirm this is obligatory and to ask questions about this is an innovation this is because Allah was when there was nothing and He created the place before there was a place and He is in no need for a place”. (Reported in Tafsir Madaarik al-Tanzeel wa Haqaa’ick al-Ta’weel by an-Nasafi, under surah Taha (20) ayat (5).

Ali bin Abi Talib, said:

قال الإمام علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه :-" من زعم أن إلهنا محدود فقد جهل الخالق المعبود" ا.هـ رواه أبو نعيم في حلية الأولياء

He who a claims that our Lord is limited, and then he is ignorant about the Creator Who is worshipped." As reported by Hafidth abu na’eem in kitab ul hilyah.

Abu hanifa has said: “Allah has no limits whatsoever” (- ولاحد له.) as reported in kitab fiqh ul akhbar.

Imam an-Nasafi has said:

قال الإمام النسفي (461-537 هـ) في العقائد ما نصه ( عن الله سبحانه وتعالى) " ليس بعرض، ولا جسم، ولا جوهر، ولا مصوّر، ولا محدود، ولا معدود، ولا متبعض. ، و لا متحيز، ولا متركب، ولا متناه، ولا يوصف بالماهية، ولا بالكيفية و لا يتمكن في مكان، و لا يجري عليه زمان ولا يشبهه شىء" ا.هـ

He (Allah) is not a body (jism), nor a matter (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (ma’dud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-ma’hiya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in space (al-makan), and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him, that is to say, nothing is like Him.” (See: Sa’d al-Din al-Taftazani & Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqa’id al- Nasafiyya, 92-97).

Imam Tahawi says in his aqida:

ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر.

Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings. (At-Tahawi, matn aqeeda tahawiyya point 34, 239-321 A.H).

Imam Abu Hanifa says in his aqida:

لا يشبه شيئاً من الأشياء من خلقه ولا يشبهه شيء من خلقه.

He does not resemble anything of His creation, nor does anything among His creation resemble Him. (Abu Hanifa, Fiqh ul-Akhbar, point 3, 90-150 A.H).

wassalaamu alaikum (the trans i have used for imam nasafi's qoute is from the previous thread i think by mufti muhammad). any mistakes are from me may allah guide us all ameen.

m&a

22-04-2005, 11:12 PM

if a wahabi (salafi) ask us(deobandi) where is Allah, then what should a laymen reply?

This Answer is given by Mufti Muhammad

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

The issue of “Where is Allah?” is something that was never debated or made a matter of dispute among the Muslims throughout the ages and eras. Unfortunately, due to immense ignorance about our deen, certain Muslims spend and waist their precious time arguing about petty and trivial issues and forget about their real duties and responsibilities.

The belief (aqidah) one must have regarding his Lord and Creator is that Allah Almighty is One, there is nothing like Him, there is nothing that can overwhelm Him, there is no god besides Him and He is Eternal without a beginning and Enduring without end. He will neither perish nor come to an end and nothing happens except what He wills. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him. He is different from any created being.

Allah Most High says about Himself:

“There is nothing whatever unto like Him.” (Surah al-Shura, 11).

And He says in Surah al-Ikhlas:

“And there is none like unto Him.” (112: 4).

Due to the above and other texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah, one of the major beliefs a Muslim must have regarding Allah Most High is that there is no creation that is similar to Him. If Allah is regarded to be similar or resemble or have any qualities of His creation, then that would constitute disbelief (Kufr).

Imam Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“Whoever thinks that Allah has a body made of organs, then he is an idol-worshipper…Whosoever worships a body is regarded a disbeliever by the consensus of all the scholars, the early scholars (salaf) and the late (muta’akhirun)” (Iljam al-Anam an Ilm al-Kalam, 6-8).

If one believes that there is nothing similar to Allah in any way, then his Aqidah is correct and there is no need for disputes and arguments. I believe that there isn’t a Muslim that really believes that Allah is similar to his creation in any way, thus disputes and arguments must be avoided. Yes, if one does believe that Allah has hands, feet, face, etc…that is similar to his creation, then without doubt this person would come out of the fold of Islam.

Regarding the question, “where is Allah?” firstly, it should be remembered that this is not something that one will be asked about on the day of Qiyamah. We are in need of people really learning about the basics of Islam, rather than engaging themselves in these matters. Those that argue and cause destruction with such issues are normally ignorant about even the basics of Salat, Zakat, Hajj, etc… We need to really wake up and smell the coffee!

Secondly, this question in itself is wrong. We ask regarding the whereabouts of a person that lives in time and space. For example, I encompass time, meaning I live in time, and I have a body that needs to fill some space.

However, Allah, Mighty and Majestic, is the creator of time and space. If we limit Him to any time or space, then this would imply that we resemble Him to his creation by giving Him a body, as space is limited. If one was to say that Allah is everywhere, then this is wrong, as ‘everywhere’ is limited and ends somewhere, whereas Allah is not limited.

Similarly, to say that Allah is on earth, sky, moon, sun, throne, etc… is also wrong, as all these things are limited and to limit Allah to any created thing is Kufr.

Imam al-Tahawi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his famous al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

“He (Allah) is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by six directions as all created things are.” (P. 9).

Imam al-Nasafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“He (Allah) is not a body (jism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (ma’dud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-ma’hiya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in space (al-makan), and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him, that is to say, nothing is like Him.” (See: Sa’d al-Din al-Taftazani & Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqa’id al- Nasafiyya, 92-97).

In conclusion, one must have the Aqidah that Allah Most High is pure from space and time. It is wrong to say that He is everywhere and it is also wrong to believe that He is on something, as all these are limited whereas Allah Almighty is limitless. However, we must believe that His knowledge encompasses everything, and he knows, sees and listens to everything.

And Allah knows best

www.darulIftaa.com
Leicester , UK

Ansari

22-04-2005, 11:27 PM

This Answer is given by Mufti Muhammad

Leicester , UK

Yes it has been already posted by Abdul. If you compare the 2 fatwa's you can notice that there are very big differences between the 2 texts. Even though both are sunni's.

Odd.

faqir

23-04-2005, 12:27 AM

Bro, use your mind, you will see whose fatwa is "odd".

Ansari

23-04-2005, 11:07 AM

Bro, use your mind, you will see whose fatwa is "odd".
I couldnt possibly know, since both are qualified deobandi muftis.

faqir

23-04-2005, 11:13 AM

Refer to Sh. Nuh's articles.... "Literalism and the Attributes of Allah" and "Is it permissible for a Muslim to believe that Allah is in the sky in literal sense"?

Ansari

23-04-2005, 11:21 AM

How about if you use your own mind - not the Deobandi mufti's mind?
I dont know, perhaps one can reconcile the 2 fatwa's but i'm just a layman. Perhaps you can tell me whose fatwa -given by a qualified mufti- is wrong?

By the way: it seems the direct link didnt appear: http://www.markazulmaarif.org/darulindex.asp?x=DI003&y=257

Click on "Aqidah- (Faith & Beliefs)'', see second question or 'Message No : 14 '

faqir

23-04-2005, 11:22 AM

Refer to the two articles I mentioned above.

Muawiyah

23-04-2005, 05:33 PM

many people cannot understand the idea of "Allah is in no makaan", they'll think that you're denying that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala exists.

ahsanirfan

23-04-2005, 07:50 PM

many people cannot understand the idea of "Allah is in no makaan", they'll think that you're denying that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala exists.

such a thought comes about by disconnecting ourselves from tradition.. i.e the ashari/maturidi madhahib.... if one were to stick to them.. there wud be no confusion at all

Omar HH

23-04-2005, 07:58 PM

such a thought comes about by disconnecting ourselves from tradition.. i.e the ashari/maturidi madhahib.... if one were to stick to them.. there wud be no confusion at all

What we all need to do is give al-Aqeedah al-Tahawiyyah to all these people. People make it too complictated. The average joe just needs to believe what is necessary. Even people who know a little bit more and terms like "Ashari" and "Maturidi" like us really don't have any clue what's going on compared to the Ullema and so we should leave all that stuff with them.

And Assalam Alaykum Akhi!

Omar HH

23-04-2005, 08:00 PM

The best answer I found to give to a wahabi asking the question is: أنت مبتدع
"You are an innovater" based on Imam Maliks statement
"السؤال عنه بدعة"
Asking about it is bidah

Well said.

God is unlike any of his creation.

God says he istiwa on al-Arsh and he knows best what he meant.

Thats enough to know.

ahsanirfan

23-04-2005, 08:02 PM

What we all need to do is give al-Aqeedah al-Tahawiyyah to all these people. People make it too complictated. The average joe just needs to believe what is necessary. Even people who know a little bit more and terms like "Ashari" and "Maturidi" like us really don't have any clue what's going on compared to the Ullema and so we should leave all that stuff with them.

And Assalam Alaykum Akhi!

even salafis use aqeedah tahawiya my dear.... and they twist it to suit their own ways.. so giving them aqeedah tahawiyyah wont help at all.. like i said.. sticking to tradition is the safest way.... u dont need to go into the nitty gritty details.. when ure confused.. refer to tht tradition.. that's all there is to it

Omar HH

23-04-2005, 08:11 PM

even salafis use aqeedah tahawiya my dear.... and they twist it to suit their own ways.. so giving them aqeedah tahawiyyah wont help at all.. like i said.. sticking to tradition is the safest way.... u dont need to go into the nitty gritty details.. when ure confused.. refer to tht tradition.. that's all there is to it

Yeah I know they do and they have their own commentary for it.

But just the normal thing without commentary.

Or al-Fiqh al-Akbar or Imam al-Ghazali's little section on belief, or the Guiding Helper song 2.

How many people in this Ummah lived and died without ever being asked or asking the question "Where is Allah"

Jazakallahu Khayrun

Omar HH

24-04-2005, 08:48 PM

Ibn Juzayy al-Kalbi writes:

"Words have come in the Qur'an and Hadith whose literal interpretation
makes Allah seem like His creation -- such as "`ala l-`Arshi s-tawa"
and "yadahu mabsutatan" and like the hadith which speaks of "nuzulu
l-lahi kulla laylatin ila sama'i d-dunya", and other things like this.

So the scholars of our din are divided in three groups concerning this.

The first group is the early pious Muslims (al-salaf al-salih) among the
sahaba and the tabi`in and the Great Imams of the Muslims. They believe
in the words in the primary texts but do not search for details meanings
or interpretations of these words. And they look in disdain upon people
who try to search for the meanings of these words. ... And this is the
view of Imam Malik, Imam al-Shafi`i and most of the Hadith scholars.

The second group includes [some later scholars] who have understood
the words in the primary texts about such subjects as being *literal*.
So, these people have claimed that Allah has a body (lizamahum al-
tajsim). And this is the view of [a group of] the Hanbali scholars
and some Hadith scholars also.

The third group includes [some later scholars] who have given
metaphorical interpretations [ta'wil] to avoid literal interpretations
of such words. And these people have used the rational proofs of
`Aqidah as a basis for their metaphorical interpretations. And this
group includes most of the mutakallimin.

[QF: volume 1: page 13: line(s) 16-26:
{book 0, chapter 5 (tanzihu l-lah), tanbih}

Muawiyah

26-04-2005, 09:16 PM

How is this for an answer: "He is with me, wherever I may be"

Omar HH

26-04-2005, 09:19 PM

أنت مبتدع
"You are an innovater" based on Imam Maliks statement
"السؤال عنه بدعة"
Asking about it is bidah

Again, the best thing ever said about the question.

abuhajira

14-11-2005, 04:42 PM

salman

14-11-2005, 05:03 PM

abuhajira

14-11-2005, 05:08 PM

:salam:

No akhie, I dont have it with me and I wanted the answer right away so I posted here since I know the immense knowledge in the forum. Alhamdulillah.

I will check it first hand tomorrow. Jazak Allah for your help.

:salam:

AbuZayd

14-11-2005, 05:55 PM

:salam:

I am sorry to pick up an ooold thread, but since someone has mentioned Af Fiqh Al Akbar , I would like clarification on this from Pg 90 of Al Fiqh Al Akbar

"Imaam Aboo Haneefah was asked about someone who says:

“I do not know if my Lord is in the heavens or the earth?”

So he replied:

“He has disbelieved since Allaah, the Most High says::

‘The Most Merciful ascended above the throne (Arsh).’

And His Arsh is above the heavens.”

(Al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P. 19)"

:salam:

1. "Abu Haneefah (RH) said, when asked of his opinion of the one who says, 'I do not know whether Allah is above the heavens or on the earth.' - "He has disbelieved, because Allah says, "The Most Merciful rose above the Throne." , and His Throne is above His seven heavens.' He was then asked , 'what if he said that Allah is above His Throne but he does not know whether the Throne is in the heavens or on the earth?' He said, 'He has disbelieved, because He has denied that He is above the heavens, And whosoever denied that He is above the heavens has disbelieved." ['al-Uluww' of adh- Dhahabee, also 'Sharh Aqueedah at-Tahaawiyyah' of ibn Abee al-Izz al-Hanafee]"

Mawdu` and a lie in its attribution to the Imam. Al-Dhahabi himself states [Mukhtasar p. 136 #118; al-`Uluw p. 391 #327] that everything above was reported from the Imam by Abu Muti` al-Hakam ibn `Abd Allah al-Balkhi who is DISCARDED as a narrator according to Imam Ahmad, Ibn `Adi, Abu Dawud, a liar according to Abu Hatim, and a forger according to al-Dhahabi himself as reported by Ibn Hajar in Lisan al-Mizan (2:407)!.

Even so, the text mentioned by the Hanafi authorities is: "Whoever says, 'I do not know whether my Lord is in the heaven or on earth' is a disbeliever and, similarly, whoever says, 'He is on the Throne and I do not know whether the Throne is in the heaven or on earth ' is a disbeliever."

As to its meaning: al-Bayadi said in Ishaaraat al-Maraam: "This is because he implies that the Creator has a direction and a boundary, and anything that possesses direction and boundary is necessarily created. So this statement explicitly attributes imperfection to Allah Most High. The believer in [divine] corporeality and direction is someone who denies the existence of anything other than objects that can be pointed to with the senses. They deny the Essence of the Deity that is transcendent beyond that. This makes them positively guilty of disbelief." As quoted in al-Kawthari, "Khuturat al-Qawl bi al-Jiha" ("The Gravity of the Doctrine That Attributes Direction [to Allah Most High]") in his _Maqalat_ (p. 368-369).

Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi states something similar in Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, and others.

[Shaykh GF Haddad]

Companion

14-12-2005, 09:16 AM

The answer to this question is beyond comprehension. Your mind will return baffled.

But you must read the Quran, the very word of Allah which will give you much understanding of 'what' Allah is. I dont mean read books on the Quran, or a few verses. Read the entire Quran translation by a good 'easy to read translator'.

traveler

21-12-2005, 08:32 AM

No "where".

Allahu Maujoodun Bila Makaan.

This is one of the best answer to give to a Wahabi.. Allahu Maujoodun Bi Lamakaan.. short and sharp

Link

01-01-2006, 07:37 PM

meer

30-07-2006, 07:18 PM

Forums are good for knowledge but what the major draw back i see ina forum is the topics whicha are very sensitive and making a mistake here puts the most precious imaan on danger are discussed by laymen like oursleves and "MUFTIS of the Internet forums."
brothers ,please these topics were not disci\ussed even by Great ulema of our times.But here i see we people discuss it with ease .this approach is highly dangerous so plese read the instructions at the start of aqeedah section.

for people like ourselves the solution is to say"i bring imaaan on ALLAH subhanahu wa taa'la as he wishes to bring imaan on him."

brothers please do not come onto sensitive topics.

I request mod to lock these threads for all members an allow scholars here to give detailed answer to the queries.

ozgurislam

15-02-2007, 10:30 AM

Assalam Alaikum

I went to ask-imam website, i am bit confused, my question is where is Allah? can brothers/sisters answer this, and quote deobandis scholars.
Inshallah

wassalam
True_Hanafi

Sahih Muslim

Book 035, Number 6526:

Abu Musa reported: We were along with Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on a journey when the people began to pronounce Allah-o-Akbar in a loud voice. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O people, show mercy to yourselves for you are not calling One Who is deaf or absent. Verily, you are calling One Who is All-Hearing (and) Near to you and is with you.

Sahih Muslim

Book 035, Number 6531:
Abu Musa, reported. We were along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in an expedition. The rest of the hadith is the same (and there is an addi- tion of these words in that):" He (the Holy Prophet) said: He Whom you are sup- plicating is nearer to every one of you than the neck of his camel." And there is no mention of these words:" There is no might and no power but that of Allah."

MoGame

15-02-2007, 01:42 PM

The Opinion I take is this

Allah is on his throne. Does that mean he is sitting on it and has a backside? No. Allah himself says he's on his throne..but in a way we can't imagine. In a way that is befitting to his majesty.

We know he is on his thrown, but we do not ask the "how"

wAllahu a3lam.

ozgurislam

15-02-2007, 05:42 PM

MoGame

15-02-2007, 07:57 PM

jinnzaman

15-02-2007, 08:44 PM

The Prophet Pbuh asked a slave girl "Where is Allah" and he felt pleased with her answer when she said "In the heaven."

Can you explain the statement of Allah which was revealed to refute the claim of the Jews that they had crucified Isa a.s and had killed him. Allah says "But Allah raised him up onto Himself."

If you take this statement literally, this means that you've placed Allah in His creation (the heavens).

How is that not anthropomorphism?

MoGame

15-02-2007, 08:47 PM

I've Already Stated, Allah Is Above his throne in a matter that befits his majesty.

Now, as regarding that hadith..How would you explain it?

jinnzaman

15-02-2007, 09:01 PM

I've Already Stated, Allah Is Above his throne in a matter that befits his majesty.

Now, as regarding that hadith..How would you explain it?

What needs to be explained?

MoGame

15-02-2007, 09:19 PM

Explain why the Prophet PBUH was pleased and didn't say "you've placed Allah in His creation (the heavens)" this is wrong"

abuhajira

15-02-2007, 09:57 PM

:sl:

What is the answer when Allah says that HE is closer the jugular vein?

The same answer is to this.

Read the fatwa of Mufti Mahmood Hasan Saheb , specifically "what is intended when a jehat or a place is attributed to Allah" :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/askimam/message/133

Wassalam o Alaikum

MoGame

15-02-2007, 10:02 PM

From that fatwa I caught this, which I was going to mention earlier

Imaam Maalik rehmatallah alayh was asked about the Aayat in Surah Taaha, 'Allah is above His Ãrsh', he answered 'Being above (Istawaa) is known but the reality is unknown and - questioning that - is innovation.'

That is exacly what I'm saying. It is in your own fatwa.

abuhajira

15-02-2007, 10:17 PM

:sa:

Subhan Allah Br. It is a fallacious mentality to take what suits you and leave which negates you. Maybe you should seek a proper Teacher's guidance.

:sa:

Yahya

16-02-2007, 02:38 AM

many people cannot understand the idea of "Allah is in no makaan", they'll think that you're denying that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala exists.

Just because a human cannot imagine a thing NOT being in a place, it does not mean that it is not true.

For example, Allah says in His Glorified Book:
الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَجَعَلَ الظُّلُمَاتِ وَالنُّورََ

We know from this ayah, that Allah created both light and darkness. That means that there was time when there was neither light nor darkness. A human cannot imagine that either. But it's true.

Negating a place for Allah, is NOT negating His existence. Rather, we are stating that His existence is not similar to the existence of the creatures.

abuhajira

16-02-2007, 08:41 AM

:salam:

I just wanted to correct myself :)

Br. MoGame, What you have quoted from Imam Malik from the fatwa I provided in fact supports that which the fatwa talks about. By saying Allah is above the arsh, is does not indicate the Jihat. nor does it negate Allah being at somewhere other than above the Arsh. However as far as aqeeda is concerned you can indeed question why have such ta'leelat been made.. and if that is the question in your mind... it has been dealt elsewhere about the reason for defining such limits so as to saveguard the Imaan.

:salam:

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 03:39 PM

there is the creation and there is Allah
and nothing else

Allah is not in His creation, to say He is in His creation is kufr
so there is only one other choice which is
out of His creation, Allah was always there, before creation existed.
and He is where He always was.

Allah created the creation, and He made the 'arsh He created above all of His creation, and He istawa over His arsh, separate from His creation which includes the Arsh but He is above it (mustawen 'alayhi) in a manner befitting His majesty that is not like His creation's istiwa.

Allah is mustawen on the arsh separate from it and is greater than it.
Allah is not limited, not surrounded.
the limit is only in regards to Allah and His creation, between Allah and His creation, where He is separate from His creation, but Allah Himself is not limited, and the creation is below Him.

if you want to call where Allah is (above and outside of His creation, where He always was before creation existed) a "place", it won't make it a "place" meaning an inclosed area, surrounded and limited.

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 04:13 PM

Shaikh al Islam Ibn Taimiyyah (rahimahu Allah) said in his book minhaj as Sunnah

فإنه سبحانه منزه عن أن تحيط به المخلوقات أو أن يكون مفتقرا إلى شيء منها العرش أو غيره ومن ظن من الجهال أنه إذا نزل إلى سماء الدنيا كما جاء الحديث يكون العرش فوقه ويكون محصورا بين طبقتين من
العالم فقوله مخالف لإجماع السلف مخالف للكتاب والسنة كما قد بسط في موضعه

For He subhanah is free (don't know how the word "munazzah" is translated) from being surrounded by the creation or to be in needof any of it, the throne or other than it, and whoever thinks, from the ignorant, that when He descends to the sama' ad-dunya like in the hadith, that the throne is above Him, and that He becomes trapped between 2 levels of the world, then his saying is against the ijma' of the Salaf, and is against the Quran and Sunnah ...

abuhajira

16-02-2007, 04:18 PM

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 04:27 PM

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 04:31 PM

Personally, I believe that the thread title has absolutely invalid/improper word in respect to Allah swt, since word where is used.

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 04:33 PM

Allah is in his very own dimension (if you wish to call it) such that he needs no limits. He is absolute. Thus For Allah neither time matters, nor place. He is Mustaghni from them. Similarly He is mustaghni from any object that can be quantifiable and that is created. Since Arsh is created, Allah is mustaghni of the Arsh as well. He exists but not in time and place, not in manner we understand.

Bro, by saying ".. is in his very own dimension" you actually are doing the same - attributing a need of dimension to Allah swt.

Careful now ..

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 04:46 PM

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 04:55 PM

Abdul Qahhar
so then ur basically saying Allah is non existing?

since Ash'ari belief is that Allah is not in His creation nor out of it and ur also attacking what abu Hajirah stated,
so then that would make Allah non existant !!

or what is ur explanation for this?

No, I'm not saying Allah swt is non existing - subhanallah.
Where did I say that? Pls show me by quoting me.

What I'm trying to say is what bro abuhajira tried to say:
Allah swt does not need time nor space, they are simply His creatures.

To try to explain this: we humans, people, simple tiny little creatures are so mucho grando limited in our perception. We need space to understand this world, we need dimensions, we need time.

If I ask you now: can you imagine a world without dimensions or without time?
No, of course not. Me neither. Simply because we are limited.

So, if Allah swt says He is Al-Hayy Al-Qayyum, then He is.

Bottom line - when you say: inside or outside, you're still talking about 3-dimensional (or 4D, which ever you prefer) space, so you cannot apply this to Allah swt, subhanallah.

I hope this clarifies the matter at least a bit.

PS When you say "Allah is out of His creation", I suppose you mean independent from the creation. But be careful, if you say out, outside what exactly? Outside this 3D world known to us is something we cannot understand, for as I already said, we need space and time to understand.
It's like saying, before time was created. So I ask then: what do you mean before time was created? I mean, if there's no time, then you can't really use word before.

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 05:10 PM

:salam: Sr Musleema,

By saying Allah is outside his creation, you have already attributed space to Allah and restricted him from being Inside. Since only that can be outside which can have the ability of coming in. Thus you have indeed attributed jism (in any form) to His flawless creation.

so you believe Allah is also inside His creation ??!!
and Allah has a dhat - essense, that has attributes, and that is not limited, but there is a limit between it and the creation, making it separate from it.
to believe that Allah is inside His creation, is to believe in hulool, and that belief is kufr.

our minds can not comprehend the howness of these things, so we believe what is in the Quran and SUnnah the way the salaf did, and this is what htey believed, and I have quotes from past scholars proving that, and insha Allah you will see them soon.

Since time and space are both created , therefore both are restricted. To attribute any one of these two to an absolute is to attribute the quality of that which is created to an absolute which will inturn nullify the absoluteness. This is therefore falacious.

Similarly when you say Allah in his absoluteness is Alal Arsh, then only that can be on Arsh in its entirety that can move about and come under the arsh as well. Thus again a Jism is attributed.

that is ur understanding of it, and not the understanding of the salaf.
Allah is above the Arsh and greater than it, you are limiting Allah to ur understanding and comprehension, out minds are limited and Allah is not.

He also states, "The best and safest option is the stance adopted by our Salaf (pious predecessors), i.e. to believe in Allah as He is without delving into the details on these issues. (Al-Iemaanu billaah)"

the salaf believed that Allah istawa 'ala al Arsh and that istawa means " 'ala" like Mujahid rahimahu ALlah said.
but How Allah "istawa" is unknown to us, we cannot comprehend it nor do we speak about how He did it.
and we are not speaking about how Allah istawa.

The attributes of above and outside only become real if the object whose aboveness is being described (so as to say maf'ool) is finite. In this case that is Allah's creation. Once that finite aspect is in place and you say Allah is above and outside it, then it would restrict Allah from being inside or under or on side or anywhere else. And you have mentioned Allah is indeed limitless. Thus again falacious.

the details of this is not from our knowledge, or comprehension, I believe what is in teh Quran and Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf, and this is what they believed, and I have seen it myself in some books of past scholars, who came over 200 yrs before shaikh al Islam Ibn Taimiyyah rahimahu Allah.

. He is Mustaghni from them. Similarly He is mustaghni from any object that can be quantifiable and that is created. Since Arsh is created, Allah is mustaghni of the Arsh as well.
who said Allah is in need of anything ?
did u read the quote I posted by Shaikh al Islam Ibn taimiyyah rahimahu Allah ?
he clearly states that Allah does not need any of His creation, not the arsh nro anything else.

Allah is in his very own dimension (if you wish to call it) such that he needs no limits. He is absolute. Thus For Allah neither time matters, nor place.......
He exists but not in time and place, not in manner we understand.

and is the creation in this dimension?
if it is not then where is the creation?
unless you believe Allah is also in His creation or that His creation is in Him, and this is hulool.

as for the created place and time, with no doubt we don't believe Allah is in time or place.
the creation is a created place, but where Allah is, is not created, and He was always there, then He created the creation.

And when we say appropriate to Allah, we leave it to Allah's being and do not dwell into it. This is what Imam Malik r.a had refered when he says "maam Maalik rehmatallah alayh was asked about the Aayat in Surah Taaha, 'Allah is above His Ãrsh', he answered 'Being above (Istawaa) is known but the reality is unknown and - questioning that - is innovation.'"

:ws:

yes, and that is the belief of the Salaf.

================================

akhi, I did not plan on going deep into this topic, if u notice, I only gave a clear short explanation.
you gave a long, philsophical reply, which actually is delving into the issue, I do not say or read such things, because it is limiting ALlah to our comprehension, and it is delving into it, trying to understand it with our limited minds.

so I am out of this discussion, I very dislike delving into it, I only said what I learned and read in books of past scholars, who metioned the belief of the Salaf in this, they didn't give any more details than that.
because we don't know more than that, the rest of it (the how) we do not know, and are not allowed to speak about it or imagine it.

the end of my discussion in this insha Allah.

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 05:17 PM

I agree we should not be discussing these things as we can easily do something to lead us to kufr - neudhubillah.

Can I please ask the mods to close this thread?

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 05:19 PM

No, I'm not saying Allah swt is non existing - subhanallah.
Where did I say that? Pls show me by quoting me.

What I'm trying to say is what bro abuhajira tried to say:
Allah swt does not need time nor space, they are simply His creatures.

To try to explain this: we humans, people, simple tiny little creatures are so mucho grando limited in our perception. We need space to understand this world, we need dimensions, we need time.

If I ask you now: can you imagine a world without dimensions or without time?
No, of course not. Me neither. Simply because we are limited.

So, if Allah swt says He is Al-Hayy Al-Qayyum, then He is.

Bottom line - when you say: inside or outside, you're still talking about 3-dimensional (or 4D, which ever you prefer) space, so you cannot apply this to Allah swt, subhanallah.

I hope this clarifies the matter at least a bit.

PS When you say "Allah is out of His creation", I suppose you mean independent from the creation. But be careful, if you say out, outside what exactly? Outside this 3D world known to us is something we cannot understand, for as I already said, we need space and time to understand.
It's like saying, before time was created. So I ask then: what do you mean before time was created? I mean, if there's no time, then you can't really use word before.

masha Allah

u explained it well
that is what I was tryign to say
our minds and comprehension are limited, we can only understand what we see, and know.
and that is the problem with many, they try to fit Allah into their comprehension/mind, if they can't understand it then they reject it completely (like jahmiyyah) or interpret it into something else that their limited mind can comprehend.

what I am trying to say when saying "outside" is that Allah is not in His creation, nor is His creation inside Him (exalted be Allah), meaning He is separate from His creation.

and I say He is above His creation because that is what the Salaf believed and is mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah, that He is above the Heavens, and above the Arsh (the Arsh being above the heavens and the highest of the creation, and the creation ends at the throne, the throne being one of the creation).
if the Salaf didn't understand it that way, and interpreted it to something else, then I wouldn't believe it, and believe what they understood from the Quran and Sunnah.

I myself cannot comprhend everything regarding that, but I believe, and do not delve into the details or try to comprehend it or imagine it because I cannot, my mind is limited, and Allah knows Himself more than anyone, so who am I to try to comprehend Allah and say what He is and what He is not according to my limited mind.

this is where "tasleem" (submission) comes in, even if I can't comprehend it.
it is not for me to comprehend Allah, I am only ordered to believe in it.

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 05:21 PM

one last thing

when one submits and believes without delving into it, or trying to comprehend it with the limited mind, one lives in peace.

but when one delves into it and trys to comprehend it with his mind, he will live in misery and might even disbelieve.

AbdulQahhar

16-02-2007, 05:53 PM

ozgurislam

16-02-2007, 06:23 PM

[QUOTE=Musleemah;169029]there is the creation and there is Allah
and nothing else

Allah is not in His creation, to say He is in His creation is kufr
so there is only one other choice which is
out of His creation, Allah was always there, before creation existed.
QUOTE]

This saying goes against;

* Imam Bukhari (d. 256) believed that Allah exists without a place as stated by Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari. Ibn Hajar repeats in many places that Allah is clear of places. [1]

* Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 311) said in his commentary on the verse "Then turned He (thumma istawa) to the heaven" (2:29):

The meaning of istiwa' in this verse is height and elevation... but if one claims that this means displacement for Allah, tell him: He is high and elevated over the heaven with the height of sovereignty and power, not the height of displacement and movement to and fro. [2]

* Imam al-Ash`ari (d. 324) said in the authentic version of his Ibana published by Dar al-ansar and edited by Fawqiyya Husayn Mahmud:

Allah is established on the Throne in the sense that He said and the meaning that He wills, with an establishment that transcends touch, settlement, location, immanence, and displacement. The Throne does not carry him, rather the Throne and its carriers are carried by the subtleness of His power, subdued under His grip, and He is above the Throne and above everything down to the extremities of the lower earth, with an aboveness that does not make him any closer to the Throne or to the heavens. Rather, He is as exalted high over the Throne as He is exalted high over the lower earth, and together with this He is near every creature, and He is nearer to His servant than his jugular vein, and He is witness over everything. [3]

* Shahrastani (d. 548) relates that Imam Ash`ari also said:

The vision of Allah does not entail direction, place, or form, or face to face encounter either by impingement of rays or by impression, all of which are impossible. [4]

* Mulla `Ali al-Qari states in Sharh `ayn al-`ilm:

It is obligatory that you believe that your God... is not contained in any place or direction.

He states in Sharh al-fiqh al-akbar:

Allah is not located in a place, whether above or below, or any other than these, and time is inapplicable to Him, unlike what the mushabbiha and mujassima and hululiyya or incarnationists believe.

He also cites in Sharh al-Mishkat al-hafiz Zayn al-Din al-`Iraqi's statement that all Four Imams agree that anyone who believes Allah lies in a specific direction has committed disbelief. [5]

* Al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam does not declare those who attribute a direction to Allah to be disbelievers but only innovators:

The correct position is that the one who holds belief in Allah's direction is not declared a disbeliever, because the scholars of Islam did not bring such as these out of Islam, rather, they adjudicated inheritance from Muslims for them, burial in Muslim grounds, sanctity of their blood and property, and the obligation to pray over their remains. The same is true of all the upholders of innovations. [6]

* Imam Ghazali said in his al-Iqtisad fi al-i`tiqad:

The Hashwiyya asserted direction for Allah while guarding themselves from divesting Allah of His attributes (ta`til), falling thereby into likening Allah to creation (tashbih).

Allah has granted success to Ahl al-Sunna in establishing the truth. They have recognized the proper goal in establishing their method, and understood that direction is denied and disallowed for Allah because it pertains to bodies and complements them; while vision of Him is firmly established because it directly follows knowledge and attends it as its perfecting component. [7]

* Ibn al-Jawzi says in his Daf` shubah al-tashbih:

Some claim the verses "Good words ascend to Him" (35:10) and "He is the Omnipotent over His servants" (6:18, 6:61) as proof that He is above in sensory fashion, forgetting that sensory aboveness is only applicable to bodies or atoms, and that aboveness can also be expressed for loftiness of rank.

Furthermore, just as He said: "above His servants," He also said: "and He is with you" (57:4). Therefore whoever interprets the latter as meaning "with you in knowledge," permits his counterpart to interpret istiwa' (in 20:4) as "subduing" (al-qahr)....

Abu Ya`la says: "What is meant by "aboveness" is Allah's istiwa' in person on the Throne, which is a limit for him in the direction that is bounded by the Throne. As for the other directions, such as above, behind, in front, and left, they are not bounded." I say: these words are the very root of anthropomorphism, because what bounds is either greater or smaller than what is bounded, and these dimensions only apply to bodies. [8]

* Ibn Hajar states in Fath al-bari:

The fact that the two directions of "above" and "below" are inapplicable and impossible for Allah does not preclude His being described with the attribute of elevation (`uluw), for such description is only from the standpoint of the meaning of elevation, not that of sensory perception. [9]

Al-Kirmani said: "The outward meaning of the saying: "He Who is in the heaven" (man fi al-sama') is not meant. Allah is transcendent above immanence and place. However, because the direction of aboveness is nobler than any other direction, Allah linked it to Him to indicate the loftiness of the Essence and the Attributes." He addresses the other expressions of aboveness in the same manner. [10]

* Ibn al-Hammam al-Hanafi (d. 681) said in al-Musayara, a commentary on Ghazali's tenets of belief:

The seventh foundation of Islamic belief is that Allah, the Exalted, is not characterized by a direction, because directions -- above, below, right, etc. -- are created with creatures... and if, by "direction" other than that is meant, which does not suggest the immanence of boundaries or corporeality, let it be made plain (i.e. that it is a loftiness of rank, not space), so that it can be examined whether it belongs truly to transcendence, and if it is misphrased or other than that, then it must be shown to be corrupt. [11]

* Imam al-Yafi`i (d. 768) in the end of his Kitab marham al-`ilal al-mu`dila devotes an entire chapter to the refutation of the anthropomorphists. The title of the chapter is: Bayan al-istidlal `ala nafi al-jiha wa al-jismiyya wa batalan madhhab man qala bihima min al-karramiyya wa al-hashwiyya wa muta'akhkhiri al-hanbaliyya (The exposition of the proofs upon which are based the negation of direction and corporeality and the invalidity of the school of those who assert them among the karramiyya and the hashwiyya and the late Hanbalis). It begins with the words:

The true Imam and teacher of the scholars of kalam, Imam al-Haramayn said: "The madhhab of the People of Truth (Ahl al-Sunna) is absolutely unanimous on the question that Allah is exalted above boundaries and above being characterized by directions. The Karramiyya and some of the Hashwiyya have said that He is bounded and that He is characterized by the direction of aboveness... and each of these two positions is tantamount to declaring that Allah has a dimension or that He has parts, and constitutes pure disbelief."... I quoted this from his book al-Irshad. [12]

* Abu Bakr ibn al-`Arabi al-Maliki (d. 543) labels the believers in Allah's direction "followers of Pharaoh" in his `Aridat al-ahwadhi:

Your conclusion shows that you are indeed the followers of Pharaoh, who believed that the Creator lies in a certain direction, and so he desired to climb up to Him on a ladder. He congratulates you for being among his followers, and he is your imam! [13]

* Even Ibn Hazm al-Zahiri (d. 456), the arch-enemy of Ash`ari and the Ash`ari school, says in al-Fasl fi al-milal:

By no means whatsoever is Allah in a place or in a time. This is the position of the vast majority of the scholars (al-jumhur) and ours as well, and other than this position is not permissible, for anything other than it is false. [14]

NOTES:

[1] Ibn Hajar, Fath al-bari 13:357; Cf. 3:23, 6:102, 13:309, 328, 351, 354, 355, 357, 366, 369-370, 414.
[2] Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, Tafsir 1:192.
[3] al-Ash`ari, al-Ibana `an usul al-diyana, ed. Fawqiyya Husayn Mahmud (Cairo: dar al-Ansar, 1977), p. 21.
[4] Shahrastani, al-Milal wa al-nihal as translated by A.K. Kazi and J.G. Flynn, Muslim Sects and Divisions (London: Kegan Paul International, 1984) p. 85.
[5] al-Qari, Sharh `ayn al-`ilm wa zayn al-hilm 1:34; Sharh al-fiqh al-akbar (Beirut: dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyya, 1404/1984) p. 57; al-Mirqat, cited by Kawthari, Maqalat p. 321, 362.
[6] al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam, Fatawa p. 151, 153.
[7] al-Ghazali, al-Iqtisad fi al-i`tiqad (Beirut: dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyya, 1409/1988) p. 48.
[8] Ibn al-Jawzi, Daf` shubah al-tashbih p. 131, 135, 260.
[9] Ibn Hajar, Fath al-bari 6:136 (Jihad).
[10] Ibid. 13:412.
[11] Ibn al-Hammam, al-Musayara p. 16-17.
[12] al-Yafi`i, Marham al-`ilal al-mu`dila, ed. E. Denison Ross (Calcutta: Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1910) p. 244, 246.
[13] Abu Bakr Ibn al-`Arabi, `Aridat al-ahwadhi 2:235.
[14] Ibn Hazm, al-Fasl fi al-milal wa al-ahwa' wa al-nihal 2:125.

Al-Awzaa’ee (d. 157H) said: "I asked az-Zuhree and Makhool abaout the aayaat pertaining to the Sifaat (Attributes of Allaah), so they said: Leave them as they are."[Reported by al-Laalikaa’ee in Sharh Usool ul-I’tiqaad (3/430) and Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee in Dhamm ut-Ta’weel (p.18) and the isnaad is Hasan. ]

Al-Waleed ibn Muslim (d. 194H) said: "I asked Maalik, al-Awzaa’ee, Layth ibn Sa’d and Sufyaan ath-Thawree - may Allaah have mercy upon them - concerning the reports related about the Attributes, so they all said: Leave them as they are without asking how?" [Reported by al-Aajurree in ash-Sharee’ah (p.314), al-Bayhaqee in al-Asmaa was-Sifaat (p.453) and also al-I’tiqaad (p/118) and the isnaad is Hasan.]

Imaam Shafi, said: “I believe in Allah and in what has been reported concerning Allah, upon what was intended by Allah. And I believe in the Messenger of Allah and in what has been reported concerning the Messenger of Allah, upon what was intended by the Messenger of Allah.”

Imam Ahmad said: “We believe in them and we attest to their verity, without saying how and without ascribing a meaning for them. Nor do we reject any part from them. We know that whatever the Messenger came with is the truth. We do not reject what Allah’s Messenger came with, nor do we describe Allah with more than He has described Himself, without limits. Allah says: ‘There is nothing whatsoever like Him (in comparison). And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.’ We say as He has said. We describe Him with what He has described Himself and we do not transgress that. The description of those who (attempt to) describe Him, cannot grasp Him. We believe in the Qur’aan, all of it, its clear verses as well as its unclear verses. We do not reject any of His Attributes due to a discomfort (that we may perceive towards it).

Muhammad bin al-Hasan ash-Shaybaanee (d. 189H), the companion of Abu Haneefah said: "All the Fuqahaa , from the east to the west are agreed upon: [The obligation of] having faith in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth which the reliable and trustworthy narrators have come with from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) - in describing the Lord, the Mighty and the Majestic - without explaining them (tafseer) or likening them to the creation (tashbeeh). So whoever explains anything from them today, then he has departed from that which the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) and his Companions were upon for verily, they did not explain them but they gave verdicts with whatever is in the Book and the Sunnah and then they remained quiet. So whoever speaks with the saying of Jahm [bin Safwaan] then he has separated from the Jamaa’ah since he [Jahm] describes Him [Allah] with nothingness." Reported by al-Laalikaa’ee in Sharh Usool il-I’tiqaad (3/432).

Imaam at-Tirmidhee (d. 279H) said: "It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: "Affirm these narrations, have eemaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: "Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-Yad (Hand), as-Sama’ (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta’weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah." [Sunan at-Tirmidhee (3/24)]

Al Bayhaqi in his book Asma Wa Sifat said, “The rule is that every attribute mentioned in the Book or authentically convey in mass-narrated (mutawatir) reports, or in lone-narrated one (ahad) but having an origin (asl) in the book or being inferable from one of its meanings: We affirm such an attribute and we let it pass as stated in its external wording, without addressing modality.”

Al Nawawi in his book Al Majmoo said, “Others say that such verses should not be given a definitive interpretation, but rather their meaning should not be discussed, and the knowledge of them should be consigned to Allah Most High, while at the same time believing in the transcendence of Allah Most High, and that the characteristics of created things do not apply to Him. For example, it should be said we believe that

"the All-merciful is 'established' [Ar. istawa,] on the Throne" (Koran 20:5),

but we do not know the reality of the meaning of that, nor what is intended thereby, though we believe of Allah Most High that

"there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Koran 42:11),

and that He is above indwelling in created things (hulul,), or having the characteristics of temporal, contingent existence (huduth,) . And this is the path of the early Muslims, or the vast majority of them, and is the safest, for a person is not required to enter into discussions about this. When one believes in Allah's transcendence above created things, there is no need for debate on it, or for taking risks over what there is neither pressing necessity nor even any real call for.”

Al-Suyuti in his book Al-Itqan said,

“Among the unclear verses [mutashabih] are the verses of the attributes, and Ibn al-Lubban has a book regarding this which is unique, for example… (The Imam quotes several ayat from the Quran) then says, … “and the majority of the Ahlus Sunnah, which includes the Salaf and the people of hadith, have opined that such verses should be believed in but their meanings should be consigned to Allah, and we do not interpret them in such a way that negates their reality.

And a group from amongst the Ahlus Sunnah holds the position that it should be figuratively interpreted according to what befits His Majesty Most High and this is the madhab of the Khalaf.”

Ibn Qudamah said, "He is described by what He has attributed to Himself in His Magnificent Book and upon the tongue of His honorable Prophet. We are obligated to believe in and to welcome with submission and acceptance everything that is mentioned in the Quran or that is authentically reported on the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) concerning Allah’s Attributes. And we must abandon opposing it (which is done) by radd (rejection), ta’weel (distortive misinterpretation), tashbeeh (comparison) and tamtheel (representation). As for what appears unclear from that, then we are obligated to affirm its wording and not oppose its meaning."

Ibn Abi Al Izz Al Hanafi said, "The Salaf are in agreement that man cannot define Allah or His Attributes. Abu Dawud Al Tayalisi said that Sufyan, Shubah, Hammad Ibn Zayd, Hammad ibn Salamah, Shuraykh and Abu Uwanah never tried to define Allah or liken Him to nor compare Him with anything. They would simply narrate the hadith and refuse to elaborate on the narration." (Sharh At Tahawiyya)

Musleemah

16-02-2007, 08:04 PM

ozgur

don't just copy and paste what faqir posted

almost all the ones he quoted regarding Allah and place are Ash'ari scholars who don't believe Allah is above the Arsh / above His creation.
except for Imam at Tabari rahimahu Allah, he just picked one quote of his that makes it sound that he rejects Allah being above the heavens, but in his tafsir of ayah 16 in surat al Mulk he mentions in tafsir of it that Allah is the one meant by "the one above the heavens".

so one doesn't just look at one statement he says in his book but look at all the statements regarding the issue in his book, so one will understand exactly what he means.

what about the NON Ash'ari scholars of the past?

who came before shaikh al Islam Ibn Taimiyyah rahimahu Allah?

why does faqir only mention the view of Ash'ari scholars?
also, non of the quotes above by Ash'aris scholars attribute that belief (that Allah is not above His creation) to the Salaf.
it only mentions the view of those scholars and what they believe is the aqeedah of ahl assunnah.
while some of the scholars of past whom I read saying Allah is above His creations separate from them attribute it to the Salaf.

also, we are not talking about "place" meaning the creation, surrounded and limited.
I already explained it in detail.
so to bring quotes rejecting a "place" does not mean anything, because we don't say ALlah is in a place, that is the creation, or that He is surrounded or limited.

The issue is about Allah being above the Arsh above His creation.

anyways, this won't change anything until you see for urself.
insha Allah soon.

End of my discussion here insha Allah.

Yahya

16-02-2007, 11:32 PM

..., but in his tafsir of ayah 16 in surat al Mulk he mentions in tafsir of it that Allah is the one meant by "the one above the heavens".

Doesn't it say "man FEE as-samaa'" ????

faqir

17-02-2007, 07:34 AM

Alhamdulillah Ibn al-Jawzi [RH] in his Daf Shubah al-Tashbih has already answered the pseudo-salafis like Musleemah who insist that Allàh is "Separate" from his creation. I quoted the following elsewhere:

The fact that the notion that Allàh is contiguous with His creation or separate from it necessarily and essentially implies the notion that He is possessed of body and substance was emphasised by Abu ’l-Faraj ibn al-Jauzi (d. 597 /1201; Baghdad), a Hanbali Imàm in his book Daf‘ Shubah al-Tashbih when he remonstrated with Ibn al-Zàghuni (d. 520 / 1126), one of the teachers of Ibn al-Jauzi and one of the anthropomorphist Hanbali’s, for insisting that Allàh “has to be separate” and for insisting that Allàh physically ascended the Throne:

I declare [Ibn al-Jauzi says]: This talk is nonsense and sheer anthropomorphism (tashbih)!

This man doesn’t know what is necessary of the Creator, and what is impossible of Him.

Indeed, His existence is not like the existence of atoms (jawàhir) and bodies which must have a location. “Below” and “above” only apply to what can be faced and gotten opposite to. Now, what is gotten opposite to has of necessity to be bigger, smaller, or equal to what is opposite it––but this is what applies to bodies. Whatever faces bodies may be contacted, and whatever can be in contact with bodies, or be separate from them is originated since it is known [in science of Kalàm] that the proof that atoms (jawàhir) are originated is their capacity to be contacted or separate. Thus, whoever permits [contact and separation] for God makes Him originated. If they maintain that He may not be originated in spite of His being susceptible to contact and separation, we will not be left with any means to demonstrate that atoms are originated.

Furthermore, if we conceive of a thing transcending space and location[namely, God], and another requiring space and location [namely, bodies], then we may neither declare the two to be contiguous nor separate since contiguity and separateness are among the consequences of occupying space.

It has already been established that coming together and becoming separate are among the inseparable attributes of whatever occupies space. However, the Real (al-Haqq), high and exalted is He, may not be described by the occupation of space because, if He did occupy space, He would either have to be at rest in the space He occupied, or moving from it; whereas, He may neither be described by movement nor stillness; nor union nor separation [since these are the attributes of things which are contingent and originated, not of that which is necessary and eternal]. Whatever is contiguous or separate must have a finite existence. Then, what is finite has to have dimensions, and what has dimensions needs that which particularises its dimensions [and whatever has a need can not be the God and Originator of the cosmos].

Furthermore, from another point of view, it can be pointed out that He is neither in this world or outside it because entering and exiting are inseparable attributes of things which occupy space. Entering and exiting are just like movement and stillness and all other accidents which apply to bodies only.

Notice that Ibn al-Zaghuni claims above [Ibn al-Jauzá had quoted from one of his books] that He did not create things in His Essence (dhàt); therefore, he presumes it is established that they are separate from Him. [In refutation of this claim] we declare [that is, Ibn al-Jauzi] that the Essence of the Transcendent God (dhàtuhu al-muqaddasah) is beyond having things created in it, or that things should occur in it. Now, material separation in relation to Him requires of Him what it requires of substances [namely, that He be defined by finite limits]. Indeed, the definition of location is that what occupies it prevents a similar thing from being found there; [whereas, nothing is similar to God in any way].

It is apparent that what [these anthropomorphists] presume is based on sensory analogy. Their inability to conceive of a reality beyond material experience led them into bewilderment, and to liken the attributes of the Transcendent God to the attributes of originated things [that is, to commit tashbih]. Indeed, the bewilderment of some of them reached such a degree that they declared: “The reason God mentioned His ascension (istiwà’) on the Throne is that it is the nearest thing to him.” Obviously, this is preposterous because nearness in terms of distance can only be conceived of in relation to bodies [whereas, in relation to the Transcendent God who is not a body, it is inconceivable]. Others declared that the Throne is opposite what confronts it of the Divine Essence (dhàt), but not opposite the entire dhàt. This, of course, is explicit in saying that God is like a body (tajsim), and that He is susceptible to division. I am at a loss to understand how a person [who believes such heretical nonsense] has the audacity to ascribe to our school of law [that is, the Hanbali madhhab]!

Ibn al-Jauzi, Daf‘ Shubah al-Tashbih (Cairo, Maktabah Kulláyat al-Azharáyah, 1991), pp, 21-22

Musleemah

17-02-2007, 07:57 AM

Ibn al Jawzi
said nothing new.
that is the same logic the mutakalimeen use, which include, mu'tazila and Ash'aris.

and it has no evidance from Quran or Sunnah, it is trying to comprehend Allah's essense and attributes with one's limited mind.

ahl al Hadith including at Tirmithi and Ibn Abi Hatim ar Razi (r A) refuted the ones who say that it is tashbih to confirm the attributes and explained what tashbih is, and Ibn Abi Hatim ar Razi mentioned how him and ahl al Hadith were accused of being mujasimah, by their opponents, and refuted their claim.

That is what al kalam does to one's logic, and mind, many of mutakalimeen of Asha'ira regreted delving into ilm al kalam in the end of their life, one of them al fakhr ar Razi like mentioned in his bio in one of the books of tabaqat or siyar ar rijal, don't remember which one now, but have it saved somewhere in my computer.

so stop using ilm al kalam and delving into it, and learn from ur past scholars and what ilm al kalam got them into.

also, Ibn al Jawzi's book was refuted by shaikh Sulaiman Alwan
comments by Alawi as Saqqaf.
you will find it in the internet, in Arabic.

faqir

17-02-2007, 08:18 AM

one's limited mind

your mind seems to be excessively limited to me - I give up, you win.

Musleemah

17-02-2007, 08:37 AM

normal human limited mind.
not me or you can comprehend the modality of Allah's essence or attributes.

and I don't think anyone would claim that they can comprehend it.

Doesn't it say "man FEE as-samaa'" ????

yes it does.
and "fee" in this ayah means "above\fawqa"
and scholars have explained that "fee" comes in Arab language as " 3ala - على"
and brought examples.
also, sunnah gives clear evidance that it means "above\fawqa"
hadith where Zainab radiyallahu anha said that Allah got her married from above seven Heavens "min fawqi sab3ee samawat"
and other hadiths similar to that.

and I come across any scholar saying that "fee" in that ayah means "in".
they differed on who or what is meant by "man" and of course Ash'aris and Mu'tazila did ta'wil to it.

while Imam at Tabari and other past scholars of sunnah mentioned its tafsir meaning Allah 'azza wa jal.
and some didn't give exactly what it is but gave a few different tafsirs of it, being one of them
like one who said (dont' remember which scholar,, have to review it. but I remember what he said) that it means one of 2:
the Angels or Allah azza wa jal.

you can check the tafsirs yourself.

salman

17-02-2007, 10:42 AM

salamu `alaykum

By making the defense that "well, they were Ash`aris" Sis. Musleemah falls into the usual trap of labelling many of the highest ranking Sunni scholars as essentially having no clue in their `aqida - in specific regarding their understanding of God Himself. Quite a questionable and absurd claim.

Yet, ofcourse, our Salafi brethren cannot do away with these scholars since these scholars form the pillar upon which our religion rests on.

Either way... let us wonder where we will be in the hereafter.

Wasalam
Salman

PS: Analyse the ta`wil in the post right before mine... and see the reasoning providing for it being sound according to the "Arabic language". Does it ring a bell?