The sufi hadra

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

anyone here done the sufi hadra? If so, what were your impressions of it? I've only done it once, but i thought it was brilliant, much more beneficial to my iman than the usual way of turning the lights off and shouting "Allah-hoo!" whilst moving your head back and forth (which scared me the first time i went to that)

[karategirl]

hayak Allah akhi :)

may Allah increase you in iman and guide you to that which benefits, of knowledge and actions. True, the sufi "dance" can be scary to those who see it for the first time, espically the dance of orders from north africa, and in perticular al samaneeya tareega, one followed by sheikh babikir (hafazu allah) which thier "dance", can be very scary to those who hvn' seen it before, espically the ending when they start jumping, in sudan there was a sheikh called the "flying sheikh" as when he jumpes he used to stay up in the air for a period before coming down. what i was gonna say was that orders differ in thier physical manifestation of zikir, like those from indian subcontenent aren't as physical as those from northern africa, and even in northern africa they differ even within the same tareega, e.g. samaneeya tareega in egypt are less "physical n stuff" than that in sudan, but i guess it kinda been adapted to suite the needs of the people, as everyone knows sudanese are very into "dancing", weither it's for zikr of Allah or not. wa Allahu alam, hope those with knowledge will inligten us on this more, as it's very interesting indeed.

I went to the spiritual camp in wales, al hamdullah it was BRILLIANT, anyway, my friend who's very new to this whole thing, when heard them saying "la elah ela allah" with thier breath, she just ran out, and i was thinking to myself, i wonder what she'll do when they start jumping! anyway when they did start doing the physical thing, even thought it wasn't the whole thing and didn't enclude the jumping and stuff, all the sisters just went crazy, got very scared, confused, and stuff, until they had to be grouped and someone explained it to them afterwards, that every move has a meaning, and that we were only seeing thier physical side and not what was going on inside them, etc....

Allah ehdeena wa ehdeekum
K.G.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

as i mentioned, i've only been to one hadra, and coincidentally enough, it is exactly the one you described. I got to go to shaykh abu bakr's gathering in london a couple of weeks ago (i live all the way in birmingham, so its a long trek to it) and that was the first time (and as yet only time) in which i did the hadra, including the jumping bit at the end. :D It really was brilliant though, inshallah i will go again soon. And then after the hadra, everyone went across the whole room giving everyone salam, and then the shaykh delivered a talk to us (which again was excellent).

It didn't scare me at all, (because i knew what to expect). The reason the other one was scary (naqshbandi way of doing zikr) was that i had only just started practising at the time and was very influenced by the ahle-hadith outlook, and the term "dodgy sufis" was already placed in my mind at that time.

Unfortunately I didnt go to wales (primarily due to not having anyone to go with, rather than the cost). :cry:

Wasalam

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Salam,

anyone here done the sufi hadra? If so, what were your impressions of it? I've only done it once, but i thought it was brilliant, much more beneficial to my iman than the usual way of turning the lights off and shouting "Allah-hoo!" whilst moving your head back and forth (which scared me the first time i went to that)

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

Yes, lost the count of how many though. My husband is in a tariq, even though I'm not, I still attend the gatherings for the past 7 years.

Hmm, my 1st impression of the hadra was 'what is this?' This was way back in Cairo, Egypt shortly after I had gotten married and went overseas. Everyone was expecting me to know what it was and were surprised when I had no clue to what it was. Some have explained it was another way to make dhikr and worship Allah, another form of dancing. I asked if it was halal? they said it was halal, they were not mixing with each other as you see in the western society where people dance in dance clubs. This was for the remembrance of Allah swt. I remember feeling this inner peace and a sense of calm and relaxation. It just felt natural, like a form of exercise. That's how it's suppose to be like, natural and relaxation, like yoga. You shouldn't get too much into it like jump around the place but just be nice and calm which is what I was told as that's not the proper adab esp if you're a sis, wouldnt want a bro to accidently walk in or even hear you as it might cause some trouble.

Allahu Alim

I know I have seen some in Syria and it was amazing. I saw these young sisters in their teens attending the masjid for the hadra, instead of going to the dance clubs.

My kids love it and do it at certain times and sometimes I get a bit embarassed if they do it around salafis because they give you this odd look like how dare you teach your kids this nonsense? I ask how is remembering Allah nonsense? They said it's fine to remember Him and acknowledge Him but when you get down and shake it's haram. I said who said we do that? I said just because my kids do that doesn't mean that's how it is, they're kids, they just move to the rhythm, the sound of the beat of the dhikr, their tone. Isn't it better they say this and do this instead of saying 'baby yah!' or something like that. She said but still it's haram, you should teach them not to do that. I said well that's your opinion, and I have mine. I find nothing wrong with it, if you give them too much of what they cant do rather than what they can do, they will turn away as too much restriction causes them to be bottled up and feel trapped and that's not what Islam is all about or remembering Allah is all about. It's natural, and peace.
She was quiet and just gave me this look like whatever, i give up.

It depends on the person though how they feel during a hadra, some feel like wow this is really nice stuff, and some say this is a good relaxing way to remember Allah, it relieves stress, and any anger, or if you had a bad day it'll uplift you and make you feel better.
Insha'Allah I hope that has answered your question, if it was a bit too long I apologize. I tend to babble at times but for good reasons insha'Allah.

[AbuZayd]

Question



What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi'i school?





Preliminaries



[m: The hadra is a form of group dhikr where the attendees most often stand in a circle. Depending on the particular Sufi order, it can contain elements such as singing, dancing, and music.]







Answer



The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.[1]

Whatever has been decisively proven as impermissible is not permitted, and whatever has been decisively proven as permissible is permitted.

If the hadra contains something impermissible, like the free-mixing of marriageable men and women in way that is conducive to temptation or unrestrained looking at the unlawful, then attending it is forbidden.

Similarly, if [m: the hadra] includes the playing of musical instruments like the kubah (a drum that is wide at each end and narrow in the middle), mizmar ([m: a wood wind instrument similar to the flute]), lute (Ar. 'ud), and similar musical instruments, then attending it is forbidden.

As for the duff ([m: a shallow drum, like a tambourine but without the metal jingles]) and drum that is wide at both ends and the middle, they are permissible in our school for men and women, during weddings and at other times.

If the hadra is free from forbidden elements and combines the remembrance of Allah Most High, praising Him as He deserves, and lauding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), then all of this is fundamentally recommended in Islamic law according to the consensus of Muslims, as is clear.

If movement is added to this, as some Sufis do, there is no harm in it, because dancing is permissible for men and women in our school as long it doesn't contain effeminate or licentious movements as wicked and shameless people do. Otherwise, [m: if it contains such prohibited movements], it is forbidden.

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir [2] imam of our school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, "it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam." (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)



Al-Jalal As-Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars (al-Hawi li’l-Fatawi).



The upshot is that if one wishes to do this [m: (i.e., attend a hadra)] while observing the above-mentioned rules, it is not permissible to repudiate him because, at worst, this matter is differed upon. It is not permissible to repudiate one who does [m: an act that is differed upon], as Imam Al-Ghazali (Ihya), An-Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim), Al-'Izz Ibn Abdussalam (Shajarah Al-Ahwal Wa Al-Ma'arif), other others point out [m: in the parenthesized texts].





Notes



[m:



[1] The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization is a maxim of classical logic. It means that before one can pass judgment on an issue, one has to properly understand it.

[2] A muharrir imam is one who authoritatively identifies the strong and weak positions within the school.



]



Amjad Rasheed

(Translated by Moustafa Elqabbany and Hamza Karamali)

[AbuZayd]

Just to mention also, I've done the Hadra. Embarassingly, I laughed my way through it the first time and then I had to give it up because I've got a bad back. :cheesygri Naah, InshaAllah if I get a chance I'll go back to Cricklewood Masjid one day. Shaykh BaBikr is a truly inspiring Shaykh.

[GenN]

Assalm alykum

sufi dance :confused:

call me a wahabi, but tell me you guys are kidding. I aint got nothing aginst sufi tariqas, and am searching for someone to give bayah to myself, but dance? music? Abu zayd wheres that banghead smilie we have at ummah?

[Abu Usama]

salam,

where did music come from? The hadra (sufi dance) is done to the words "La illaha ilallah". Good stuff, tires you out though.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

This was explained before in another thread:

Ali said: I visited the Prophet with Ja`far ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Haritha. The Prophet said to Zayd: "You are my freedman" (anta mawlay), whereupon Zayd began to hop on one leg around the prophet (hajala). The Prophet then said to Ja`far: "You resemble me in my creation and my manners" (anta ashbahta khalqi wa khuluqi), whereupon Ja`far began to hop behind Zayd. The Prophet then said to me: "You pertain to me and I pertain to you" (anta minni wa ana minka) whereupon I began to hop behind Ja`far.

Musnad Imam Ahmad

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Hajar Haytami mentions in his fatwa Hadithoyya that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of dancing upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit.

Probably one of the best examples is that of Shaikh Izz Addin ibn Abd Salam nicknamed Sultan Al Awliya, who was known to go to Dhikr gatherings and dance in states od ecstacy. At the same time we should note that his criteria was very strict. He has 2 fatwas on this issue. ONe allowing it for certain people if certain conditions were met and another Fatwa prohibiting dancing when it was of the "wordly kind."

The word Hajala means "To leap or Hop"

leap

تَوَثَّبَ , حَجَلَ , طَفَرَ , قَفَزَ , نَزَا , نَطَّ , نَقزَ , وَثَبَ

The definition of dancing is:

1. To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.

2.
A.To leap or skip about excitedly.
B.To appear to flash or twinkle: eyes that danced with merriment.

The word Hajala doesnt signify "swaying of the body".

This is why some of the Ulema, although they maybe a minority have seen this as evidence to allow such an action (based on certain strict criterias).

Regarding Shaikh Izz Ad din it states:

"kana yahduru al sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu"

meaning:

" (He) attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy"

This is reported by Nabahani in his Jami Karamat Al Awliya, Ibn Imad in his Shadharat and others.

The word Yarqusu is formed from the word رَقَصَ which means dancing.

Note that my teachers who are hanafi do not allow this while doing Dhikr and so forth.

Wallahu A'lam

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

similary, the great explanation provided by Akhi Zain:


As Salaamu Alaykum,

I Pray that every brother and sister is in good health.

The matter regarding dancing is a complex one. It is primarily necessary to actually define the meaning of "dancing" as some members have tried to do.

Dancing is "to move with measured steps, or to a musical accompaniment; to go through, either alone or in company with others, with a regulated succession of movements, (commonly) to the sound of music; to trip or leap rhythmically."


It should be noted that the Shafi'ee Madhab is fairly relaxed on the matter of Dancing. Their Hadeeth is that the Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam saw a group Abyssinians in the Masjid and he did not stop them. Therefore this will be classed as tacit approval from the Propht Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam. It is also stated that Ummul Mu'mineen, Hadhrat Aisha was allowed to see the dance of the Abyssinians.


أن نفراً من الحبشة رقصوا في المسجد أمام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولم ينكر عليهم.

It must be noted that the word رقصوا has been used here, which translated comes in the meaning of "dancing". Therefore, in accordance to Imaam Shafi'ee it is permissable to dance (taking some conditions into account).

Whilst having a brief discussion with Mufti Sahib, he said that dancing in islam is permitted, nevertheless it has conditions.

The dancing that is seen in music videos (by pop stars) is regarded as unlawful in islam. THe forms of movements and actions undertaken in such dance is forbidden. The forms of dance that would be regarded as permissble are those which are like aerobics and exercises.

It must also be taken into consideration that during these exercises/dances anything which is unlawful is Islam will also make this 'dance' forbidden. Therefore, intermingling of the sexes and music will make aerobics and dancinG unlawful.

It should also be taken into account that many Ulamaa (scholars) have interpreted this dancing and play by the Abyssinians as a form of preperation for Jihaad (Holy War). In brief, the Abyssinians were practising acts that would aid them in war, such as spear throwing.

Therefore, in conclusion, it can be said that dancing in Islam is Jaiz (permissable) as long as the conditions are met. However, any form of dancing that immitates the dancing of the pop idols and non-islamic methods (that which are also regarded as shameless) will not be permissable.

Thus, despite the flexibilty on the matter, it is always advisable to stay away from matters of doubts.

We should all remember that Allah is more rightful of our shame and modesty. Therefore, if we were to find it shameful to commit an act in public, it would be unadvisable to do such an act in solitude.

I pray to Allah to accept that which is right, and to forgive the shortcomings.

And Allah Knows Best.

Wa Alaykum As Salaam

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101&page=3&pp=10

[AbuZayd]

Assalm alykum

sufi dance :confused:

call me a wahabi, but tell me you guys are kidding. I aint got nothing aginst sufi tariqas, and am searching for someone to give bayah to myself, but dance? music? Abu zayd wheres that banghead smilie we have at ummah?


[From my single experience], there was no music Akhi GenN (good to see you here by the way) :) Nor would I call it a "dance" as such in the sense that we are familiar with although the article above clarifies this. Personally, I will probably not do it again - as I am unlikely to be able to keep a straight face (and my back might not hold up :D )



"Men who celebrate the praises of Allah standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides"

[Qur'an 3:191.]


Wasalam.

[AbuZayd]

Sallamu Alaikum

similary, the great explanation provided by Akhi Zain:



Akhi, do you know which Mufti the brother is referring to in the above quote?

[AbuZayd]

I also found this opinion in the Hanbali madhab

Answered by Sidi Musa Fuber

Question:

Salaam alaikum,

What is the position in the Hanbali school (both early and later classical scholars, as well as the "controversial ones" throughout) on the subject of Hadra (the Sufi standing/dancing form of zhikr)?


Wasalaam




Answer:



wa `alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

The books indicate that the scholars of the Hanbali madhhab, and as was the case in other schools as well, did not have a consensus concerning the hadra.

One scholar who was adamant against the hadra is Ibn Al-Jawzi. This is seen in Mukhtasr Minhaj Al-Qasidin, Ahkam Al-Nisa' and Talbis Iblis. From his accounts of what happened in the hadras of his time he was totally justified in doing so. The hadras he talked about were gatherings of the zanadiqa and they were assemblies of moral corruption..

And one scholar who was a proponent of the hadra was none other than Al-Safarini, the later Hanbali who authored one of the greatest book on athari `aqidah as well as Ghidha Al-Lubab Sharh Alfiyat Al-Adab. Sheikh `Abd Al-Qadir `Isa frequently cites Ghidha Al-Lubab in his book Haqa`iq `An Al-Tasawwuf. In addition to being a top notch scholar of Hanbali fiqh and `aqidah, he was also a student of the great Hanafi sufi sheikh Sheikh `Abd Al-Ghani Al-Nablusi.

Something to keep in mind is that many of the things that Ibn Al-Jawzi condemned Al-Safarini and other proponents of the hadra condemn as well. Proponents of the hadra put conditions on it.

Such a delicate and controversial topic warrants a detail study, if only to show each side that there is enough evidence to require mutual respect. We all, in sha Allah, have more important things to do. Like actually practicing tazkiyat al-nafs instead of talking about it and soiling our tongues.

May Allah be pleased and have mercy on all of the scholars of Islam.

And Allah knows best.

wa al-salamu `alaykum
--musa

[salman]

Akhi, do you know which Mufti the brother is referring to in the above quote?

Sallamu Alaikum

I think Mufti Muhammad, Wallahu A'lam.


As Salaamu Alaykum.

Brother ibn Rashid, Mufti Muhammad Sahib teaches at Jame'ah Uloomul Qur'an. Which is under the Patronage of Hadhrat Sheikh Maulana Adam Sahib.

The Darul Uloom is located in the Highfield/North Evington Area (Baggrave Street).

Wa Alaykum As Salaam.

[GenN]

Assalm alykum

may Allah reward you all for your explanations. However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it. And i definetly wouldnt use the word "dance" to describe it, it may have been ok to use that word in the past but hese days the image that goes into a person head when you say "dance".....

what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

was salaam.

[AbuZayd]

No idea about the whirling dervishes......

I also came across the following on the subject of "dancing" whilst making dhikr (posted by one of the brothers in another forum):




Shaykh Ul Islam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning "a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr," and he replied:

How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, ". ..those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides" (Koran 3: 191). And' A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, "The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times" [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spirirual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja'far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, "You resemble me in looks and in character," dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience

(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933-34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'llmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).

[salman]

Assalm alykum

may Allah reward you all for your explanations. However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it. And i definetly wouldnt use the word "dance" to describe it, it may have been ok to use that word in the past but hese days the image that goes into a person head when you say "dance".....

what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

was salaam.

Sallamu Alaikum

Jazakallah to Abu Zayd for the Fatwa.

Also note Akhi that the Ulema had strict guidelines on such actions, even to the extent of who could do it and who could not and at what level one must be at to do it etc. Insha'allah ill try to get the Fatwa of Shaikh Izz Ad Din Sultan al Awliya.

[karategirl]

Al salam alakum wa rahmat Allah



Barak Allah feek brother salman, and may Allah increase you in knowledge and iman, and jazakum Allah khair to all the other brothers and sisters who contributed in the topic.

i quote brother GINN, as saying "However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it."
i am assuming ur talking about ibn al gyam al jawzi, ibn taymiya's student, right? enough said! (but if you would like more to be said, don't hesitate to ask)

i was told that those hadra dances differ becuase they are what different sheikhs saw when they watched the angles making zikr, so in that light i would like to ask those to refain from a tone other than that of respect when they talk of it, even if it appears to them to be strange/funny/stupid, etc.

but brother ginn u amused me, cos i checked ur mazhab, and it says ur hanafi. (i was expecting to see ether, non or hanabali ;))

Allah ehdeena wa ehdeekum
K.G.

[Mustafa]

Wa alaikum as salaam, sister karategirl

Ibn al Jawzi and Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziya are two different people, sister. :)

Ibn al Jawzi wasn't talking about the hadra itself, but about what people were doing at the gatherings, and the type of people that were attending. And Allah knows best.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

the hadra is something which has been attacked for a long time. in a similar fashion, so too has the mawlid an-nabi. i understand your doubts about the hadra sidi GenN.

>>However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it.

read sidi musa's response again. ibn al-Jawzi was against the hadra because of what was occurring in it. similarly, many of the classical scholars that were against the mawlid, were in actual fact against what was happening in the mawlid celebration, not the mawlid itself.

>>what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

the whirling dervishes were originally an authentic practice, and it was essentially the hadra performed by the mevlevi sufi tariqa. as far as i am aware (i may be wrong), the tariqa is basically extinct now. any remnants are likely to pseudo-sufi's, especially those that tour the world and have displays for the non-muslim audiences and clearly go against shari'a.

i too, brother had my doubts about the hadra. in fact, it is known that the great shaykh Murabit al-Hajj, one of the shaykhs of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf does not approve of the hadra. In addition, i am told the ba-alawi from hadaramawt do not approve of the standing swaying, although they have their own hadra which does not involve dancing.

having said that, it is clear from some of the classical fatawa and classical scholars that the hadra is within the bounds of shari'a and is certainly mubah at the least. Remember that the Shadhilli tariq, the 'tariqa of the ulama and awliya' (meaning it has produced great numbers of scholars of the inward AND outward e.g. Sidi Ahmad Zarruq, ibn Ata'illah etc) has its own hadra too. Bear in mind that we have some of the greatest fuqaha in the world today who are shadhilli. E.g. Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi and Shaykh Nuh Keller

this alone convinces me that the hadra is NOT doubtful, and is in fact an 'accepted sunna' not a 'prescribed sunna' as Shaykh Hamza once said.

Allah knows best

'Abd al-Wakil

[karategirl]

Al salam alakum

jazak Allah alf khair brother mustafa for calrifying that, cos i assumed he was talking about ibn al gayam al jawzeya, inshallah may Allah grant me patience and allow me not to be hesitant in making conclusions. It's just i hvn't heard that ibn al jawzi as being against it, so i concluded it must be ibn al gyam, anyway i apologize, and hope Allah forgives me, and barak Allah feek mustafa, and may Allah grant you to see AL mustafa (pbuh)

al salam alakum
K.G.

[GenN]

Assalm alykum

karategirl, why do you say you would expect me to be non madhabi or a hanbali??? :confused: i assure you i am a hanafi.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

also, a lesson to be learnt from this is that even if you do not agree with it, no-one is forcing you to take part. I have seen many muslims repectfully not take part in the hadra so many times, including ulama.. yes they may disagree with it, but the beauty of sunni islam is:

"i believe i am correct; but i might be wrong and you might be right"

and not:

"i believe this is correct and you are wrong"

salams

[Nayab]

hahah funny thread :lol: :rolleyes:

nayab :evil:

[maaz]

ok so lemme get this straight. i know my hanifi scholors wont allow me to hate on the "dances", but is there anything like this from the hadiths or rasullah, tabian, and taba-tabian (i'll try NOT to sound like a salafi here). why can't we just sit and do zikr? why the movement? i dunno man. complicated, and i'm starting to think its beyond me. and did this start up cuz, some shaykhs saw angels doing zikr like this? but if rasullah and his sahabah, the best of creation didn't do it, or there aren't any historical accounts of it, then why is it needed today? man, i sound like salafi. but i'm hatin' nor judging, just questioning. I won't criticize anyone, cuz i don't know what my own condition will be on the day of reckoning. but i hope someone can clarify further. maybe i'll talk to my local scholors. i think its a sit down and talk topic.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

Inshallah I will try to explain to the best of my knowledge and ability:

a) The hadra was not done at the time of the salaf, but that does not mean that it is wrong to do so, just as taraweeh in jamaat was not done until the khilafat of Umar (ra)

b) It is established that zikr was done at the time of the Prophet (saw)

c) It is established that 'dancing' is permissable in Islam on the basis that RasoolAllah (saw) would let the Abysinnians dance on eid in the masjid.

d) therefore for zikr to accompany 'dancing' is permissable, as long as no other haram elements are involved.

e) To beleive that it is necessary to do hadra in of itself is an innovation. Rather we say that it is a means (which is halal as shown) to an end (which i to get closer to Allah (swt). Take the issue of taqleed, which is also a means to an end.

f) If you don't want to do it, then don't.

Lastly, there's an article by shaykh nuh ha mim keller called "The concept of bidah in the islamic shariah" which is available from www.masud.co.uk and www.hanafi.co.uk

Wasalam

[Muawiyah]

isn't there a difference between a person who moves his hands and feet in wajd and one who actually dances?

[salman]

ok so lemme get this straight. i know my hanifi scholors wont allow me to hate on the "dances", but is there anything like this from the hadiths or rasullah, tabian, and taba-tabian (i'll try NOT to sound like a salafi here). why can't we just sit and do zikr? why the movement? i dunno man. complicated, and i'm starting to think its beyond me. and did this start up cuz, some shaykhs saw angels doing zikr like this? but if rasullah and his sahabah, the best of creation didn't do it, or there aren't any historical accounts of it, then why is it needed today? man, i sound like salafi. but i'm hatin' nor judging, just questioning. I won't criticize anyone, cuz i don't know what my own condition will be on the day of reckoning. but i hope someone can clarify further. maybe i'll talk to my local scholors. i think its a sit down and talk topic.

Sallamu Alaikum

The basic reason people "dance" or "sway" their bodies is because of the high state of ecstacy they are in. Such behavior is not restricted to our times alone, but also the Prophets. I mentioned before:

Ali said: I visited the Prophet with Ja`far ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Haritha. The Prophet said to Zayd: "You are my freedman" (anta mawlay), whereupon Zayd began to hop on one leg around the prophet (hajala). The Prophet then said to Ja`far: "You resemble me in my creation and my manners" (anta ashbahta khalqi wa khuluqi), whereupon Ja`far began to hop behind Zayd. The Prophet then said to me: "You pertain to me and I pertain to you" (anta minni wa ana minka) whereupon I began to hop behind Ja`far.

Musnad Imam Ahmad

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Hajar Haytami mentions in his fatwa Hadithoyya that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of dancing upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit.

Probably one of the best examples is that of Shaikh Izz Addin ibn Abd Salam nicknamed Sultan Al Awliya, who was known to go to Dhikr gatherings and dance in states od ecstacy. At the same time we should note that his criteria was very strict. He has 2 fatwas on this issue. ONe allowing it for certain people if certain conditions were met and another Fatwa prohibiting dancing when it was of the "wordly kind."

The word Hajala means "To leap or Hop"

leap

تَوَثَّبَ , حَجَلَ , طَفَرَ , قَفَزَ , نَزَا , نَطَّ , نَقزَ , وَثَبَ

The definition of dancing is:

1. To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.

2.
A.To leap or skip about excitedly.
B.To appear to flash or twinkle: eyes that danced with merriment.


This is why some of the Ulema, have seen this as evidence to allow such an action (based on certain strict criterias).


Sallamu Alaikum

[AbuTalwar]

Assalamuaalaikum warhamtuallahi wabarakatuhu
Bismillah walh hamdu lillah wasalatu wasalam wala rasulillilah
I would like to clarify that no where in the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW and the Quran and the teachings of the sahabas and the salafs is there a single proof of "dancing" or "hadra". Both the terms Sufi and Sufism and Sufi beliefs have no basis from the traditional Islamic sources of the Qur'an and Sunnah, a fact even admitted by themselves. Rather, Sufism is in essence a conglomerate consisting of extracts from a multitude of other religions with which Sufi's interacted. Clearly we see tht Sufism was made up also sufism and Hadra was not in the sunnah or quran. "That which was not religion at the time of the Messenger and his companions, may Allah be pleased with them all, is never to be religion today. He who introduces a Bid'ah (innovation) in the religion of Islam and deems it a good thing, claims by so doing that Muhammad (s.a.w.s) betrayed the Message." Also anything that gives u self esteem or a drenelinrush is not islam. In truth, Islam is sufficient for us, and it is only Shaytaan who wishes to turn us away from our religion, to make us exceed the limits, and fall into his trap. The only sure way to avoid this is to grasp tightly onto what was left to us by our beloved Prophet (s.a.w), the Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood and believed and acted upon by the best people to have lived: the Salaf us Saalih, the Companions and those who followed their footsteps.So Inshallah from this we see Dont inovate on to such a beautiful religion and if u dont find happiness in your salah dont go and dance around and say its Islam.
Wasalam alaikum warahmtaullahi wbarlkatuhu

[AbuZayd]

Wa alaykum asalam Abu Talwar,

Please read the fatawa posted above of those who followed in the footsteps of Rasul Allah saw and his righteous companions.

In addition, if you would like to discuss the validity of the science of Tasawwuf please start another thread.

Wasalam.

[Abu Usama]

salam abu talwar,

you do not have the correct understanding of what bidah means. If the hadra is a gross innovation, then so are other actions such as opening an islamic bookstore, creating islamic websites etc.

As for "dance", it is just the movement of the limbs in a rythmical and is allowed. The proof being that RasoolAllah (saw) would allow the abysinnians to do this in the masjid.

wasalam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

brother abu talwar, i hope that you will spend the time reading some of the posts in this forum. in addition, like another brother has stated, if you are against the science of tasawwuf, then you are also against a HUGE number of ulama and awliya, in fact the majority of ulama of the past, including ibn taymiyya.

<<Also anything that gives u self esteem or a drenelinrush is not islam. In truth, Islam is sufficient for us, and it is only Shaytaan who wishes to turn us away from our religion, to make us exceed the limits, and fall into his trap.>>

is exceeding the limits striving to be closer to Allah and purifying your heart, or is it destroying graves and relics of the prophet (s), turning the house of Khadijah into latrines? Brother, i would advise you to read Shaykh Yusuf Rifa'i's letter to the ulama of najd.. and it is quite clear who had exceeded the limits.


<<The only sure way to avoid this is to grasp tightly onto what was left to us by our beloved Prophet (s.a.w), the Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood and believed and acted upon by the best people to have lived: the Salaf us Saalih, the Companions and those who followed their footsteps.>>

...as understood by the salaf is a misnomer. at the end of the day it is someone's understanding you follow, not the salaf's understanding. For example, one may follow the understanding of Albani, another follows the understanding of Imam Abu Hanifa and the mujtahid f'il madhhab that came after him - big difference.

<<So Inshallah from this we see Dont inovate on to such a beautiful religion and if u dont find happiness in your salah dont go and dance around and say its Islam.>>

like brother abu usama has said, you have misuderstood bid'a. Imam Shafi'i even recognised 'good bid'a'. Even Umar (ra) recognised good bida.

salams

[Ansari]

so would this be permissible?

http://www.*****************/image/this%20is%20naqshbandiyya.gif

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

:D

until one finds evidence that it is not permissible, it remains permissible.

Allah knows best.


P.S. I hope that you understand that there is a difference between the traditional hadra such as the animation you posted which belonged to the mevlevi sufi order, and the modern-day pseudo-sufi 'whirling dervishes' that tour the world to entertain the kuffar.

the hadra is not a show, not something of 'entertainment' as such.

[Ansari]

as salamu alaykum

:D

until one finds evidence that it is not permissible, it remains permissible.

Allah knows best.


P.S. I hope that you understand that there is a difference between the traditional hadra such as the animation you posted which belonged to the mevlevi sufi order, and the modern-day pseudo-sufi 'whirling dervishes' that tour the world to entertain the kuffar.

the hadra is not a show, not something of 'entertainment' as such.


Well how is the hadra like?..I've read the earlier posts but still dont know how it has to be done...

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

i am afraid one would have to see it for oneself to accurately describe it. i would expect one to understand the science of tasawwuf as well, in order to appreciate such gatherings.

the hadra does not necessarily mean standing and swaying, as the Ba-Alawi followers have a 'hadra' but do not do this. And the movements vary in the different tariqa's.

Allah knows best

[maaz]

ok. I understand the purpose of taswuf, its a high purpose indeed. taking bayat i'd be fine with too. prescribed zikr would be ok too. but when we start swaying and dancing in escasty, it starts to get wierd. why cannot we sit still, and make zikr, and just contemplate about the creation why must we jump and hop to it? it just gets borderline cultish. and i honestly believe that.

you mention tarweeh, as not being established in the prophets days but WAS during the khalifah of umar(R), so i ask you, were they dancing in the days Umar (R) to zikr?

and taqlid WAS establish in the quran, and during the prophets and sahaba's days.

and the abbysinian proof, cant it be restricted to just specific celebrations?

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

Maaz akhi, when youre in that particular moment, youll see why they do so, trust me : )


you mention tarweeh, as not being established in the prophets days but WAS during the khalifah of umar(R), so i ask you, were they dancing in the days Umar (R) to zikr?

and taqlid WAS establish in the quran, and during the prophets and sahaba's days.

and the abbysinian proof, cant it be restricted to just specific celebrations?

I have repeatedly mentioned this Hadith, and i shall do so again which clearly shows a general state of ecstasy not restricted to a specific event or celebration:

Ali said: I visited the Prophet with Ja`far ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Haritha. The Prophet said to Zayd: "You are my freedman" (anta mawlay), whereupon Zayd began to hop on one leg around the prophet (hajala). The Prophet then said to Ja`far: "You resemble me in my creation and my manners" (anta ashbahta khalqi wa khuluqi), whereupon Ja`far began to hop behind Zayd. The Prophet then said to me: "You pertain to me and I pertain to you" (anta minni wa ana minka) whereupon I began to hop behind Ja`far.

Musnad Imam Ahmad

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Hajar Haytami mentions in his fatwa Hadithiyya that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of dancing upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit.

Probably one of the best examples is that of Shaikh Izz Addin ibn Abd Salam nicknamed Sultan Al Awliya, who was known to go to Dhikr gatherings and dance in states od ecstacy. At the same time we should note that his criteria was very strict. He has 2 fatwas on this issue. ONe allowing it for certain people if certain conditions were met and another Fatwa prohibiting dancing when it was of the "wordly kind."

The word Hajala means "To leap or Hop"

leap

تَوَثَّبَ , حَجَلَ , طَفَرَ , قَفَزَ , نَزَا , نَطَّ , نَقزَ , وَثَبَ

The definition of dancing is:

1. To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.

2.
A.To leap or skip about excitedly.
B.To appear to flash or twinkle: eyes that danced with merriment.

The word Hajala doesnt signify "swaying of the body".

This is why some of the Ulema, have seen this as evidence to allow such an action (based on certain strict criterias).

Regarding Shaikh Izz Ad din it states:

"kana yahduru al sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu"

meaning:

" (He) attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy"

This is reported by Nabahani in his Jami Karamat Al Awliya, Ibn Imad in his Shadharat and others.

The word Yarqusu is formed from the word رَقَصَ which means dancing.

Note that my teachers who are hanafi do not allow this while doing Dhikr and so forth.

Wallahu A'lam

[AbuTalwar]

Assalamualaiakum
No where in the Sunnah of the Prophet (Saw) does it say or have any proof that the Prophet (Saw) did this sufi dances or "movments" or whatever its called. Also whats this "Science of tasawuf" Like why dont u just read Quran and pray salah and get closer to Allah (Swt) and do the things the Prophet (Saw)did why do u have togo and dance around. Didnt the Prophet (Saw) do tht and only tht...It is clear that he didnt perform these bidas that these sufis perform...Bida is performed as a way of pleasing and getting closer to Allah (swt). In other words, when someone follows a bida, he claims that by doing this he will be closer to Allah (swt). This is much different from committing a sin. As Ahmad Ibn Hanbal once said, "The greatest sinner (fasiq) from the Ahl-Sunnah Wal Jamah is better than the most pious person from Ahl-Bida."The sinner, at least, knows that whatever he is doing is wrong and doesn't claim that it's halal and should be done to please Allah (swt) and so on. However, the one who commits bida not only goes against Quran and Sunnah but also claims that what he does is pleasing to Allah (swt) and a way of getting closer to Him. And this is one of the greatest lies one can commit to say that some act is pleasing to Allah and has no proof from Allah (swt) about his claim. So part of the concept of bida is that one who commits it claims that it is approved by the religion and Shari'a and it is beloved to Allah (swt). This is also one of the dividing points between what is bida and what is not.
Wasalam alikum

[AbuZayd]

Assalamu alaykum Akhi,

I have started a separate thread for you on the issue of Tasawwuf.

Regarding the Hadra, there is a difference of opinion of the Ulema who followed in the footsteps of Rasul Allah saw and his companions. Please read the articles posted above for their evidences from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Wasalam.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

The Prophet doesnot have to get up and do a specific action for it to become Halal or Haram. His mere approval or disapproval of an act is sufficient as is the case in the Hadith of Musnad Imam Ahmad and the hadith of the dancing Abysinnians.

[Omar HH]

I've been listening to these Shaykh Nuh Subhas for a while, and I got to the one about Hadra. Now I mean as much as I like listening to these Hadras, and Nasheeds and everything, I mean it just got me wondering. The Prophet (SAAS) never did any of these hadra dances. The Sahabahs didn't do any of these hadra dances. At least not that I know of. I don't understand the real purpose of them. If people consider them part of the faith then its bid'ah right? And I mean I haven't heard that it is Mustahab or anything, so its probably Mubah. If its just Mubah and there is no reward for it, why do people do them?

Shaykh Nuh was saying the Awliyya come to them and make du'a for people to elevate them or something spiritually?

I'm just kinda confused,

Jazakallah wa Khayrun

[Abu Usama]

As with any other actions which were not done by the salaf, it is a means to an end. For example, you open an islamic bookstore (not done by the salaf, but in itself halal) as a means to provide services to the muslim ummah and spread ilm (which was done by the salaf). In the same way, you have the hadra (not done by the salaf, but halal in itself) as a means to increase one's zikr of Allah (which was done in abundance by the salaf).

[anti-bid'ah]

what does hadrah mean???

[AbuZayd]

Please have a read through the posts in the following thread:


http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164&highlight=sufi+hadra


You can continue your discussion there InshaAllah.

[Mossy]

Merrrrrrrrge..

[Sim]

Assalamu Alaikum,

i take part in group zikr which contains the slight "swaying" of the body. it is simply done to mellow the self into a flowing motion of rememberance, and to help concentration. as opposed to staying upright and rigid. there is more wisdom in it, but i need to find out more about that.

if you havent tried it, dont bash it.

wassalamu Alaikum.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

I wanted to point out that there *are* still Meveleviya (the whirlers), but the gov't of Turkiye has made it illegal for them to congregate. They must do so in secret. The gov't does allow them to perform the sema' once or twice a year, or on tours, and it must be done under the guise of "culture." I've seen that some of them are merely performers, but others have been to Turkiye or been to the performances, and say that it is not always the case.

[Saleel]

:salam:

I tend to agree with this view:
http://www.shariahboard.com/fatwa/Tasawwuf/1200.php

:salam:

[Abu Usama]

Salaam,

i think the shaykh must've been talking about the other sort of dancing that some do like on the stahe and stuff in front of people, as opposed to the hadra which was being talked about here. Reason i say that is because he said that all the ulema al-haqq, whether they're sufi or not are against the dancing and music.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

ok back to the original topic...sorry to interrupt all the sufi hadara chanters...

it really does relax you... a great pain reliever from stress, pressure...
though dont get 2 much into it as floors can crack..or neighbors can peep in to what is this? :rolleyes:

[Fisabilillah]

asalamualaikum
hmm im confused abt hadra..teh validity of it..so i remembered something i've heard many times: "the rasul (Saw) told us not to immitate the kuffar...as i recall..in judiasm.. (i think..by no means am i stating this..plz correct me if im wrong)..in judaism they worship whilst swaying and moving....if teh hadra is worship while swaying and moving...then wudnt this be an imitation of teh kuffar?..i am hoestly jsut asking..b/c im confused..and thats it..not arguing..jsut really confused all together....so feel free to enlighten me insha'Allah and to let me know when and where im wrong...JAzak'Allahkhairun..

forgive me

Wasalamualaikum wa rahamtullah

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

asalamualaikum
hmm im confused abt hadra..teh validity of it..so i remembered something i've heard many times: "the rasul (Saw) told us not to immitate the kuffar...as i recall..in judiasm.. (i think..by no means am i stating this..plz correct me if im wrong)..in judaism they worship whilst swaying and moving....if teh hadra is worship while swaying and moving...then wudnt this be an imitation of teh kuffar?..i am hoestly jsut asking..b/c im confused..and thats it..not arguing..jsut really confused all together....so feel free to enlighten me insha'Allah and to let me know when and where im wrong...JAzak'Allahkhairun..

forgive me

Wasalamualaikum wa rahamtullah

assalamu alaikum wr wb

its like meditation...like yoga. You can sit down in a circle gathering or stand up and just close your eyes and go with the flow... no seriously just breath in and out, deeply and relax. it relieves your tension or calms you down or at least calms down a child..though some ppl it makes them more jumpy..Allahu Alim I think the point would be not to get too much into it yet focus on it and relax and let yourself take it.
you start saying Allah's name.....

sis, if you are interested in learning more. you can call me, if you wish. Though if you ask about it at the masjid they might have a field day.. lol esp since my relatives are there, despite they know thats what we do..they might be like whoa!

[Fisabilillah]

asalamualaikum

hmm i was wondering maybe the moderators or someone could find an opinion of the shuyukh amongst us here...abt the imitation of the jews by swaying..deal..perhaps?...
it would be appreciated...Jazakamullahkhairun

wasalaualaikum wa rahmatullah

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

taken from sunnipath.com

The Sufi Hadra
Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed


What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi'i school?




Preliminaries


[m: The hadra is a form of group dhikr where the attendees most often stand in a circle. Depending on the particular Sufi order, it can contain elements such as singing, dancing, and music.]



Answer


The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.[1] Whatever has been decisively proven as impermissible is not permitted, and whatever has been decisively proven as permissible is permitted. If the hadra contains something impermissible, like the free-mixing of marriageable men and women in way that is conducive to temptation or unrestrained looking at the unlawful, then attending it is forbidden. Similarly, if [m: the hadra] includes the playing of musical instruments like the kubah (a drum that is wide at each end and narrow in the middle), mizmar ([m: a wood wind instrument similar to the flute]), lute (Ar. 'ud), and similar musical instruments, then attending it is forbidden. As for the duff ([m: a shallow drum, like a tambourine but without the metal jingles]) and drum that is wide at both ends and the middle, they are permissible in our school for men and women, during weddings and at other times. If the hadra is free from forbidden elements and combines the remembrance of Allah Most High, praising Him as He deserves, and lauding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), then all of this is fundamentally recommended in Islamic law according to the consensus of Muslims, as is clear. If movement is added to this, as some Sufis do, there is no harm in it, because dancing is permissible for men and women in our school as long it doesn't contain effeminate or licentious movements as wicked and shameless people do. Otherwise, [m: if it contains such prohibited movements], it is forbidden. Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir [2] imam of our school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, "it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam." (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)


Al-Jalal As-Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars (al-Hawi li’l-Fatawi).


The upshot is that if one wishes to do this [m: (i.e., attend a hadra)] while observing the above-mentioned rules, it is not permissible to repudiate him because, at worst, this matter is differed upon. It is not permissible to repudiate one who does [m: an act that is differed upon], as Imam Al-Ghazali (Ihya), An-Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim), Al-'Izz Ibn Abdussalam (Shajarah Al-Ahwal Wa Al-Ma'arif), other others point out [m: in the parenthesized texts].



Notes


[m: [1] The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization is a maxim of classical logic. It means that before one can pass judgment on an issue, one has to properly understand it.

[2] A muharrir imam is one who authoritatively identifies the strong and weak positions within the school. ]

Amjad Rasheed

Amman, Jordan

(Translated by Hamza Karamali and Moustafa Elqabbany)

[Fisabilillah]

HIJABI...NOOOO.....It is not that....there are no religious jews ere/that reminds me i have to open a thread about tables and chairs....any way there are so less jews who are religious over ere and its not a form of imitating wallahu aalam..i mean i can read quran if i dont rock...rockaa

..the jews arent religious ya...but its still their way right?...and u CAN read quran or u Cant?..oh and umm iby wa isa Jazaki'Allahkhair..altho i read up on that eriler as well after u told me abt chkn SP....Jazak'Allahukhairun

Wasalamualaikum

[Fisabilillah]

salam
hmm okay well i look foward 2 the tables n chairs..let me kno wen its up..iA maybe itll clear it up for me..jazak'Allahkhairun
ma'salama

[muslim786]

Can someone please take the word dance away from the title of this thread, as it causes a great misunderstanding, clearly whatever this hadra is its not like dancing as people living in the west would view it.

[Fisabilillah]

...if u want i can try n find out for you..inshallah

salam
hey strive4Allah ..cud ya?...i been trying but i havent been very lucky when it comes to reliable sources..perhaps you could?...well jsut post it insha'allah..and jazak'Allahukhair :)

wasalamualaikum

[iqra]

Salam,

as i mentioned, i've only been to one hadra, and coincidentally enough, it is exactly the one you described. I got to go to shaykh abu bakr's gathering in london a couple of weeks ago (i live all the way in birmingham, so its a long trek to it) and that was the first time (and as yet only time) in which i did the hadra, including the jumping bit at the end. :D It really was brilliant though, inshallah i will go again soon. And then after the hadra, everyone went across the whole room giving everyone salam, and then the shaykh delivered a talk to us (which again was excellent).

It didn't scare me at all, (because i knew what to expect). The reason the other one was scary (naqshbandi way of doing zikr) was that i had only just started practising at the time and was very influenced by the ahle-hadith outlook, and the term "dodgy sufis" was already placed in my mind at that time.

Unfortunately I didnt go to wales (primarily due to not having anyone to go with, rather than the cost). :cry:

Wasalam

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalaamualaikum warahmatAllah,

I want to take a moment to say that I feel slightly hurt and offended by the discussion taking place. I understand that there are many taraaiq out there and some are valid while others are not. But at least among the ones that are valid I had hoped that there would be mutual respect and understanding from one tariqa to the other. I also understand that within one tariqa there can be strands which stray from the way of the mashaikh of that tariqa. I know that within the Naqshbandi tariqa this has taken place. I'm not criticising the brother whose quote is above, per se, rather I'm saddened that no one at any time during this discussion spoke up in defense of the Naqshbandi tariqa and simply allowed his comment to go undefended, and thus reinforced.

I'm sorry, brother, that you had a scary experience performing the Naqshbandi form of dhikr, but perhaps you weren't doing it with the right shaykh. The dhikr of the Naqshbandi tariqa is silent, and does not require saying "Allah-hoo" or turning out any lights. On the contrary its fundamental concept is a practice called "muraqabah" in which the murid sits quietly, focuses on his heart and imagines that it is saying "Allah." He listens quietly as his heart calls out the name of his Lord and waits patiently for the Mercy of Allah SWT to descend upon his heart. He empties his mind of any thoughts and allows his heart to focus on Allah SWT. If at some point distracting thoughts enter his mind, he simply shuns them and refocuses on his heart. This is a very soothing excercise which reconnects the murid with his Creator on a deep level and by His Will can move him along the path quickly. Of course there are other adhkaar the Naqshbandis do as well, including recitation of the Qur'an, istighfaar, salawaat upon the Prophet PBUH and somethign called "wuqoof al-qalbi" in which the murid remains mindful of his heart throughout the day and makes certain that it is focusing on Allah. Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad (one of the world's leading scholars of tasawwuf, recognized by Shaykh Muhammad Yaqoubi and the rest of the leading scholars) describes this as follows: "Your hands should work while your heart remains in remembrance." The goal is to be among those who "remember Allah standing, sitting and lying down on their sides." (3:191)

I'd like to mention here that I have nothing against the Shadhili tariqa. Shaykh Nuh is mashAllah an amazing shaykh, and I always congratulate people when they take bay'ah with him... the means may be many but the End is One. I was just slightly hurt and saddened by everyone's lack of regard for one of few valid taraaiq out there... in not speaking up against a misconception and lack or respect shown to the Naqshbandi tariqa. Again, brother Abu Usama, I'm not saying anything against you.... had I had the same I experience I would have probably been frightened as well. I would simply have preferred it if someone had spoken up for the tariqa.

Someone in another thread mentioned that he sees sunniforum as "the rich kid's club" and I'm beginning to agree with him. In any rich kid's club there's a certain way to do things and if you don't do things that way or like the same things they like, you're shunned and ignored. I've seen that happen on more than one occasion on this board. I've noticed that the Shadili tariqa is the only way to go on here, and if you don't talk about the shadiliyya you're not talking about tasawwuf, therefore you should be ignored.

I think I've repeated my point frequently enough. I'm sorry for any redundance, rudeness or bitterness on my part. I suppose it's just that I hold the Naqshbandi tariqa and its mashaikh very close and dear to my heart and only want that others can experience the same beauty, let alone fear and misunderstand it based on something not-so-authentic.

Sincere apologies for anything I said that offended anyone. I just felt I needed to speak up. I was tired of staying quiet.

Walaikum assalaam warahmatAllah.

[Mustafa]

Bismillah-hir-Rahman-hir-Rahim

Wa alaikum as salaam wa rahmatullah

While I agree with most of what you've written, sister Iqra, I do think you have misinterpreted brother Abu Usama's words. He was not pointing out any perceived flaw in the Naqshbandis, he was pointing out a flaw in himself (forgive me, akhi, for putting it like that!) - he's saying that because of his lack of knowledge regarding tasawwuf (at that point in his life) the Naqashbandi dhikr came across as 'scary' to him; he's not saying that it was bad in of itself.

I only ever come to this forum occasionaly (as it's not spiritually healthy to spend too much time on message boards, etc), but I've never seen people from other tariqas being deliberately ignored in preference for the Shadhilis. If there has ever been any attack on any tariqa, or any implication that non-Shadhilis are to be ignored or are not following 'proper tasawwuf' then that is definitely out of order and the moderators should do something about that.

However, if its the case that people only talk about the Shadhilis because that's the only tariqa they've been exposed to in any depth, then that isn't their fault, as they're only relating to things that they've personally experienced.

I should hope that people from all tariqas will share their experiences and that one tariqa isn't promoted over others (as that is haram), nor one murshid promoted over any others, nor should people be inviting others to join the tariqa they are in in preference to others.

And Allah knows best

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Fisabilillah]

wasalam
Sr. Iqra....i definately hold the same respect as you do for the Naqshbandi tariqa..subhan'Allah, is all i have 2 say...i don't kno 2 mach abt it(like the rest of the tariqas)..but what i do know abt the Naqshbandi is good enough, alhumdulillah....Jazak'Allahkhairun for your post sister. :)
wasalamualaikum wa rahmatullah

[faqir]

From the Ihsan Questions at the Guiding Helper Foundation:

http://www.guidinghelper.com/qna/ihsan.html




> Is there a Mashur opinion on the Hadra in the Maliki school? I have
> heard that the Maliki's tend to be less enthused about it than Shafi'i's.
> This is more a methodological oriented question, as I imagine one
> follows thier Sheikh of Tasawwuf in this matter.



One follows sheikhs of Tasawwuf in this matter. The ruling for the Hadrah
is really outside of the sphere of scholars who only understand external
movements and sound (the external fuqaha'). The ruling can only be given
by those that understand it inside out. We believe all the opposition to
the Hadrah voiced in certain Maliki circles is from an over-simplistic
understanding of a narration of Imam Malik that he prohibited singing. We
have dealt with this matter partially in footnote 2628 of the Explanatory
Notes and have derived the material from [QF: volume 1: page 370:
line(s) 6-10: {book 21, chapter 6, item 12, singing}]

However, it is not the case that external Maliki fuqaha' are the only
ones opposed to it or the most ardently opposed to it. But, it would
seem that most of the external scholars (e.g., al-Dhahiri, al-Shafi`i,
al-Hanafi, al-Hanbali, etc.) who only understand movement and sound
(and have no real grasp of the spirituality) have issued negative opinions
about the Hadrah.

The ruling for the Hadrah at the end of the matter is summed up by Ibn Banna
al-Sarqusti in his al-Mabahith al-Asliyyah (line 218) :

And its [hadrah's] ruling according to the best of rulings:
Is that the opinion of `Iraq is not the opinion of Syria.

In other words, no conclusive statement will ever be issued by the
totality of the scholars of our din on this subject. People who produce
"fatwas" on such subjects (e.g., "little books" that they distribute warning
people of the great misguidance of those associated with tasawwuf) should
really step back and they will realize their close-mindedness and inability
to the grasp the totality of the issue being dealt with.

[Muawiyah]

well Allaamah Ibn `Aabideen Shaami rahimahullah quotes the Durr:


«ويا حاضر يا ناظر ليس يكفر» ومن يستحل الرقص قالوا بكفر....- رد المحتار على الدر المختار - كتاب الجهاد

And Ya Haadhir Ya Naadhir is not kufr and the one who makes halaal dancing it was said that he comitted kufr. {Radd al Muhtaar - Kitaab ul Jihaad}

so possibly the Hanafis tend to be less enthused about it too??????? i'd like to know

[Faraz Rabbani]

Assalamu alaikum,

Many may be surprised, but:

Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi (Allah have mercy on him) has a fatwa on the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra in his Imdad al-Fatawa, volume 5, page 151 in the Darul Uloom Karachi edition.

The question is specifically about the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra, and the answer is 3 pages long. The conclusion is that loud dhikr is permitted in all its forms, and none of its forms should be deemed impermissible.

And Allah alone gives success.

Faraz Rabbani.

[salman]

Assalamu alaikum,

Many may be surprised, but:

Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi (Allah have mercy on him) has a fatwa on the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra in his Imdad al-Fatawa, volume 5, page 151 in the Darul Uloom Karachi edition.

The question is specifically about the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra, and the answer is 3 pages long. The conclusion is that loud dhikr is permitted in all its forms, and none of its forms should be deemed impermissible.

And Allah alone gives success.

Faraz Rabbani.

Salamu Alaikum

Jazakallah Sidi for that - One of our Shaikhs Khulafa heard about the Hadra and vouched for its permissibilty (and we do not go a step without our Master Ashraf Al Thanwi (ra))

Wallahu a'lam

[haqq]

Ya Sheikh!

:salam:

Would you be so kind as to let me know where those pages maybe viewed online, so that I can read them? If indeed they are available online.

:jazak:

:salam:

Assalaamualaikum:

I would also like to know what Hadhrat Thanvi (ra) said and which of his book it can be found in.

Was-salaam,
haqq

[muminah]

Assalamu alaikum,

Many may be surprised, but:

Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi (Allah have mercy on him) has a fatwa on the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra in his Imdad al-Fatawa, volume 5, page 151 in the Darul Uloom Karachi edition.

The question is specifically about the permissibility of the Shadhili hadra, and the answer is 3 pages long. The conclusion is that loud dhikr is permitted in all its forms, and none of its forms should be deemed impermissible.

And Allah alone gives success.

Faraz Rabbani.

loud dhikr is NOT dancing ...

[muminah]

"Loud dhikr is permited in all its forms.."

but dancing is NOT a dhikr

[haqq]

..so stop trying to find faults in the words of a qualified/revered scholar.

Assalaamualaikum:

If you don't mind me asking Brother Yusuf, who is the qualified/revered Scholar you are referring to? Jazakallah.

Was-salaam,
haqq

[Mossy]

Assalaamualaikum:

If you don't mind me asking Brother Yusuf, who is the qualified/revered Scholar you are referring to? Jazakallah.

Was-salaam,
haqq

At a guess I'd say Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi as referenced by Sidi Faraz Rabbani in his post below.

[haqq]

Assalaamualaikum,


Maulana Ashraf is far beyond that.

There is no way we can question our Master Hadhrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi (ramatullah alayhi). However, I will question if he really did permit it and was his permissablity taken out of context? I have yet to see the evidence.

The Muttaqi and practicing Scholars, who are linked to Hadhrat Maulana Thanvi (rahmatullah alayhi) and the Authentic chain of Tareeq, say it's not permissible.

Was-salaam,
haqq

[IlyasLahoz]

What's more, there are a great number of ulama past and present who not only allow it, but encourage and praise it. As such, there is no reason for us to have a public opinion about it. If the scholars one follows prohibit or allow it, then one should follow whom one follows and leave the discussion of such topics to those who have knowledge and the adab to speak about what they know.

[faqir]

:salam:


Umar Ibn Abd al Aziz said:

"It would not please me if the Companions of Muhammad, salallah alayhi wasaalam, had not disagreed, for had they not done so, no mercy would have come down."

Sufyan Al Thawri said:

"If you see a man doing something over which there is a debate among the scholars, and which you yourself believe to be forbidden, you should not forbid him from doing it."

Imam Nawawi mentioned something similar:

"Scholars only protest against that which musters unanimous consensus: as for what does not muster unanimous consensus, then there is no permission to protest"

Yahyah bin Said said:

"The people of knowledge are a people of broadness. They continue to give fatwas that are different form each other, and no scholar reproaches another scholar for his opinion."

Imam Zakariya al Anbari once said:

"Knowledge withoud adab is like fire without wood, and adab without knowledge is like a spirit without a body"

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

these are indeed great words. But where is your source?

[muminah]

..and you are NOT a scholar, so stop trying to find faults in the words of a qualified/revered scholar.

akhee HOW do you know that Im not a scholar? AND i am NOT taking any fault out Shaykh Thanvi, na'oodhu billaah, but IF thats what the shaykh meant (na'oodhubillaah) so why did they not start dancing in Thanabown khanqahas??? you find me one evidence that the shaykh danced and then we'll see. please do not twist the words of the shaykh (rahimahullaah)

[muminah]

Assalaamualaikum,



There is no way we can question our Master Hadhrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi (ramatullah alayhi). However, I will question if he really did permit it and was his permissablity taken out of context? I have yet to see the evidence.

The Muttaqi and practicing Scholars, who are linked to Hadhrat Maulana Thanvi (rahmatullah alayhi) and the Authentic chain of Tareeq, say it's not permissible.

Was-salaam,
haqq

yes true

[anti-bid'ah]

Did the prophet SAW do this hadra dance?

Did the sahaba?

Did the taabi'een?

and so on ...

so END OF THE MATTER

Allaah says in the Quraan 'and today we have perfected religion for you' i.e the ahkaam of this deen are complete ...

So if Allaah wanted as to do these hadra dances wouldnt he have told us before this ayah was revealed ??

Why are we choosing methods to gain closeness to Allaah that the Prophet SAW didnt use. Isnt he our perfect example as Allaah says in the Quraan??

...

[Abu Usama]

Did the prophet SAW call himself "anti-bidah" and post on an islamic forumon the internet?

Did the sahaba?

Did the taabi'een?

and so on ...

so END OF THE MATTER

Allaah says in the Quraan 'and today we have perfected religion for you' i.e the ahkaam of this deen are complete ...

So if Allaah wanted as to post on islamioc forums and call ourself "anti-bidah" wouldnt he have told us before this ayah was revealed ??

Why are we choosing methods to gain closeness to Allaah that the Prophet SAW didnt use. Isnt he our perfect example as Allaah says in the Quraan??

[ahsanirfan]

Did the prophet SAW call himself "anti-bidah" and post on an islamic forumon the internet?

Did the sahaba?

Did the taabi'een?

and so on ...

so END OF THE MATTER

Allaah says in the Quraan 'and today we have perfected religion for you' i.e the ahkaam of this deen are complete ...

So if Allaah wanted as to post on islamioc forums and call ourself "anti-bidah" wouldnt he have told us before this ayah was revealed ??

Why are we choosing methods to gain closeness to Allaah that the Prophet SAW didnt use. Isnt he our perfect example as Allaah says in the Quraan??

nice one brother... ;)

[Muawiyah]

as-Salaamu `alykum

the Maulana Faraz Rabbani has not said that Hadhrat Thanwi rahimahullahu ta'ala allowed dancing he just said that he allowed the Shadhli hadra. I don't see why there is a debate, if you check the fatwa then do check. Otherwise wait till someone checks it

waSalaam

[muminah]

Did the prophet SAW call himself "anti-bidah" and post on an islamic forumon the internet?

Did the sahaba?

Did the taabi'een?

and so on ...

so END OF THE MATTER

Allaah says in the Quraan 'and today we have perfected religion for you' i.e the ahkaam of this deen are complete ...

So if Allaah wanted as to post on islamioc forums and call ourself "anti-bidah" wouldnt he have told us before this ayah was revealed ??

Why are we choosing methods to gain closeness to Allaah that the Prophet SAW didnt use. Isnt he our perfect example as Allaah says in the Quraan??

akhee you are from b/ham right? Could you possibly ask Shk. Riyaadh Al Haq what the deobandi view is on Hadra dancing ... (well he isnt a mufti, but Im sure he can find out ... inshaallaah)

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

The world does not revolve around Deobandis. There is a difference of opinion on this issue with many of the classical scholars amongst them great Ulema like Imam al-Suyuti permitting the Hadra [with conditions] so I don't see why some still insist on trying to enforce their preferred view on others.


Shaykh Ul Islam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning "a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr," and he replied:

How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, ". ..those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides" (Koran 3: 191). And' A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, "The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times" [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spirirual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja'far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, "You resemble me in looks and in character," dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience

(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933-34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'llmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).

[Abu Usama]

akhee you are from b/ham right? Could you possibly ask Shk. Riyaadh Al Haq what the deobandi view is on Hadra dancing ... (well he isnt a mufti, but Im sure he can find out ... inshaallaah)

He's in Leicester

[muminah]

He's in Leicester

ok then, no other deobandi shuyookh in b/ham? doesnt really matter anyways وَقُلْ جَاء الْحَقُّ وَزَهَقَ الْبَاطِلُ إِنَّ الْبَاطِلَ كَانَ زَهُوقًا

[abdul518ca]

I don't know. -_-. This stuff is crazy, IMHO.

I understand the ovements, but JUMPING.

We have Dhikr with a person, who I think is Chishti, he does the same movements everytime. Like when dong Tahleel, at 'La Ilaha' he moves his head to his right, at 'Ilallah', he moves it to the front.

^That's better than doing the jumping stuff.

[anti-bid'ah]

Did the prophet SAW call himself "anti-bidah" and post on an islamic forumon the internet?

Did the sahaba?

Did the taabi'een?

and so on ...

so END OF THE MATTER

Allaah says in the Quraan 'and today we have perfected religion for you' i.e the ahkaam of this deen are complete ...

So if Allaah wanted as to post on islamioc forums and call ourself "anti-bidah" wouldnt he have told us before this ayah was revealed ??

Why are we choosing methods to gain closeness to Allaah that the Prophet SAW didnt use. Isnt he our perfect example as Allaah says in the Quraan??

which grandad of mine came and said that i said that this was sunnah? i aint attributing this to the prophet of Allaah sal...... al 'eyaadhu bi-Allaah.
so do not put false accusations and may Allaah protect us all.

brother i do not see a point in arguing coz it aint as if you lot gonna listen anyway, but i would just like to tell my brothers and sisters out there that all this kind of munkaraat are wrong and no evidence is found in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. i know that people may disagree with me, but its what Allaah has told us to do; amr bil m'aroof wa an-nahy 'anil munkar.

by the way yeh, Allaah did tell me (and for that matter all of us) that we should enjoin the good and forbid the evil!

i never said that me posting on this forum was sunnah or an act of worship!

regarding my username, no i did not get WAHY *rolly eyes* nor did the prophet salla..... tell me, but it is based upon the following saheeh ahaadeeth:

قال عليه الصلاة والسلام: "من أحدث في أمرنا هذا ما ليس منه فهو رد" [رواه الإمام البخاري في "صحيحه" (ج3 ص167) من حديث عائشة رضي الله عنها]، وفي رواية: "من عمل عملاً ليس عليه أمرنا فهو رد" [رواه الإمام مسلم في "صحيحه" (ج3 ص1343 ـ 1344) من حديث عائشة رضي الله عنها].

Imaam Abu Haneefah, Ahmad and Abu Daawood (rahimahumuAllaah) said that the the above hadeeth is one of the hadeeth of the three (according to Ahmad and abu daawood) / of the four(according to abu haneefah) which islaam is based upon.

وقال عليه الصلاة والسلام: "وإياكم ومحدثات الأمور؛ فإن كل محدثة بدعة وكل بدعة ضلالة" [رواه الإمام أحمد في "مسنده" (4/126، 127)، ورواه أبو داود في "سننه" (4/200)، ورواه الترمذي في "سننه" (7/319، 320)؛ كلهم من حديث العرباض بن سارية].

[IlyasLahoz]

I don't know. -_-. This stuff is crazy, IMHO.

I understand the ovements, but JUMPING.

We have Dhikr with a person, who I think is Chishti, he does the same movements everytime. Like when dong Tahleel, at 'La Ilaha' he moves his head to his right, at 'Ilallah', he moves it to the front.

^That's better than doing the jumping stuff.
OK, but can you see that this is still a matter of ijtihad on the part of the shaykh who initiated this sunnah hasana?
Your opinion and mine, they are really beside the point Sidi. It is a matter between scholars. Anything we have to say is useless at best and probably harmful.
Wallahi, Islam is much broader than one's ideological neighborhood.

[IlyasLahoz]

Also, Abu Usama, Muminah and Anti-Bid'ah;
Just for one moment entertain the possibility (however remote you might think it) that the hadra is halal and in fact those who do it are not mubtadi`een but rather friends of Allah.
Would it not, even if this chance is slim, be better to hold one's tongue than to risk incurring the wrath of Allah.

Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah Almighty says, 'I have declared war against anyone who shows enmity towards a friend of Mine. My slave does not draw near to Me with anything I love more than what I made obligatory for him. Then My slave continues to draw near to Me with superogatory actions until I love him. When I love him, I become his hearing with which he hears, his sight by which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. If he asks of Me, I give to him. If he seeks refuge with Me, I give him refuge.'" [al-Bukhari]

If you knew some of the awliyah who have and continue to participate in the Shadhili hadra, I think you would refrain from offering parroted criticisms of what you yourselves have not experienced. Or at least you should.
Wallahu Alam

[Adam]

As Salaamu Aleikum,

Allah...


If you knew some of the awliyah who have and continue to participate in the Shadhili hadra, I think you would refrain from offering parroted criticisms of what you yourselves have not experienced. Or at least you should.

How true, Brother.

The Hadra is not about gettin down or doin yo thang. It is not a dance - it is a particular form of movement. Movement and sound are extremely powerful and subtle as anybody who has ever lost themselves in Dhikr will testify to.

Dancing mostly comprises movement of the lower part of the body (feet, legs and hips) to a slightly higher BPM (Beats per Minute) in a rythm, which has certain connotations... In the language of the Chistis it activates the lower energy centres of the dancer and it relates to pulsation. It promotes a movement towards the lowest in us...

The Hadra mainly consists of movement of the upper part of the body (head, shoulder and torso) to a slightly lower BPM. Again, the Chistis would say that it activates the higher energy centres of the Faqir and it relates to breathing. It promotes a movement towards the highest in us...

Hadra is no more lewd than the movement in to bowing in Salaat - Astaghfirullah wa Atubu Ilaih. It increases the blood flow to the heart and its neutrons start whizzing about and the heart is opened... With proper supervision and sealed with Quran there is nothing like it.

Wa Salaam,
Adam

[muminah]

If you knew some of the awliyah who have and continue to participate in the Shadhili hadra

who are them??

[salman]

who are them??

Salamu Alaikum

The Ulema of Deoband do not partake in the Hadra. There is a fundamental difference between indulging in an act and endorsing an act. As for the words of Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, just because he endorsed the Hadra does not necessitate the fact that he did it or that he considers it something that should be done. Rather, it is most probably an acknolwedgment of the Ikhtilaaf among the Ahly Haq regarding specific actions during Dhikr.

Fiqh is a whole subject and not merely confined to one school of thought. The Shafi Ulema, the Jamhur atleast, allow the swaying of the body during Dhikr gatherings such as Imam Nawawi, Imam Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar and Shaikhul Islam Izz. As for the other madhahibs who do not ascribe to such views, then a Mujtahids view cannot be forced on another Mujtahids.

It would be best to leave this issue aside as a genuine difference among the great Ulema and Awliya. Who is willing to cast a suspicious glance on the likes of Imam Nawawi, Suyuti and now Shaikh Nuh or Shaikh Ahmad etc?

Wallahu Al'lam

[muminah]

Salamu Alaikum

Imam Nawawi, Imam Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar

Wallahu Al'lam

can I have some evidence for the above please

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

وقد صحَّ القيامُ والرقصُ في مجالس الذكر والسماع عن جماعة من كبار الأئمة منهم عزّ الدين شيخ الإسلام ابن عبد السلام

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami said: "It is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam." (فتاويه الحديثية pg. 298 )

Regarding Shaikh Izz Ad din it states:

"kana yahduru al sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu"

meaning:

" (He) attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy"

This is reported by Nabahani in his Jami Karamat Al Awliya

Al-Jalaludin Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars ( الحاوي للفتاوي ).

[muminah]

Imaam Nawawi ?

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

(Nawawi: ( n: with commentary by Muhammad Shirbini Khatib ) ) It is not prohibited to dance ((Shirbini: ) which is not unlawful because it is only motions made while standing or bowing. Furani and others have expressly stated that neither is it offensive, but rather, is permissible, as is attested to by the hadith related in the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stood before ‘A’isha (Allah be well pleased with her) to screen her from view so that she could observe the Abyssinians sporting and dancing) – unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate (Mughni al-muhtaj ila ma’rifa ma’ani alfaz al-Minhaj (y73), 4.430) (Umdat As Salik)

http://www.bysiness.co.uk/images/reliance_of_the_traveller.jpg

and

Beating the kuba is prohibited… but dancing isn’t, being neither prohibited nor offensive, because it is only motions made while standing or bowing, and further because he (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) consented to the Abyssinians doing so in his mosque on the day of Eid, as related by Bukhari and Muslim. (Minhaj)

Wasalam

[analyzing]

but dancing isn’t, being neither prohibited nor offensive, because it is only motions made while standing or bowing, and further because he (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) consented to the Abyssinians doing so in his mosque on the day of Eid, as related by Bukhari and Muslim. (Minhaj)




1. This is a gross injustice on the Hadith of Rasulullah [Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam]. This Hadith is recorded in Sahih Bukhari (Hadith 454; 455) and there is no mention of any dance. In fact, these Abyssinians were practising Archery, and not dancing. There is no substantiation for the claim of this person in this Hadith and in other sacred text of the Shari’ah, i.e. Hadith or Qur’aan. May Almighty Allah protect us from such ignorant conclusions concerning His pure pristine religion of Islam. And may He protect us from following our desires. It is precisely for this reason that we discourage the general masses from individually studying the Qur’aan and Hadith with no guidance from any learned, pious, practising Aalim of Deen.

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12284



well difference of opinion i guess

[Salah ud Deen]

I love the hadra. It made me feel a little hesitant as I was still coming out of being influenced by the salafiyya. Oh but I think they are great. :cheesygri

[Salika]

Salamaat,

I participated in the hadra for the firs time last December at the suhba (who went?). I've always heard the audios so I wasn't particularly surprised and have been looking forward to attending one in awhile.

The brothers and sisters were separated and we all stood in a big circle and there was the bowing... at one point I could feel the ground kinda shaking and I figured the men were jumping though I noticed the sisters did not...

I personally could not get into it at the time, maybe because I was new to it, but I would like to go to one again, but they're rare around here.. :(

By the way, does anyone know what the movements actually mean and how they came about? I'm talking specifically about the Shadhili hadra... Jazakum Allahu khairan.

[Yasin786]

It's sad to see people arguing over the validity of Dhikr'Allah. Dhikr'Allah is permitted in all forms as long as its kept in bounds of Islam. and Hadhra is not dance, it is a movement to the Dhikr and it is kept in between Halaal and the Shariah, so whats wrong with it i ask? Nothing at all, anyone going to blessed gatherings of Dhikr'Allah dont let people tell you its wrong, because infact they are wrong and are just plain silly for arguing over the validity of Dhikr'Allah. I love the posts where people pop on and say "Why dont you just pray and read Quran and get close to Allah." My only thought is good luck, doing the robot is a dance is it not?

Walaikum Salaam.

[ze leetle elper]

The first time I went to a hadra was in Syria... and who was leading the hadra but the late Sh. Abdur Rahman Shaghuri. It was totally segregated, no drums or anything :confused: and for those who are still a bit confused there was no dancing (moonwalk, disco or whatever kinda dancing you lot have in mind)

Most of the times it was with Sh. Muhammad Yaqoubi; I didn't partake in them as I always ended up entertaining his kids. :mrgreen:

Please note: You haven't been to a hadra unless its one in Syria :cheesygri : the Malays there have some energy or WHAT! :eek:

[VeiledOne]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalaamualaikum warahmatAllah,

I want to take a moment to say that I feel slightly hurt and offended by the discussion taking place. I understand that there are many taraaiq out there and some are valid while others are not. But at least among the ones that are valid I had hoped that there would be mutual respect and understanding from one tariqa to the other. I also understand that within one tariqa there can be strands which stray from the way of the mashaikh of that tariqa. I know that within the Naqshbandi tariqa this has taken place. I'm not criticising the brother whose quote is above, per se, rather I'm saddened that no one at any time during this discussion spoke up in defense of the Naqshbandi tariqa and simply allowed his comment to go undefended, and thus reinforced.

I'm sorry, brother, that you had a scary experience performing the Naqshbandi form of dhikr, but perhaps you weren't doing it with the right shaykh. The dhikr of the Naqshbandi tariqa is silent, and does not require saying "Allah-hoo" or turning out any lights. On the contrary its fundamental concept is a practice called "muraqabah" in which the murid sits quietly, focuses on his heart and imagines that it is saying "Allah." He listens quietly as his heart calls out the name of his Lord and waits patiently for the Mercy of Allah SWT to descend upon his heart. He empties his mind of any thoughts and allows his heart to focus on Allah SWT. If at some point distracting thoughts enter his mind, he simply shuns them and refocuses on his heart. This is a very soothing excercise which reconnects the murid with his Creator on a deep level and by His Will can move him along the path quickly. Of course there are other adhkaar the Naqshbandis do as well, including recitation of the Qur'an, istighfaar, salawaat upon the Prophet PBUH and somethign called "wuqoof al-qalbi" in which the murid remains mindful of his heart throughout the day and makes certain that it is focusing on Allah. Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad (one of the world's leading scholars of tasawwuf, recognized by Shaykh Muhammad Yaqoubi and the rest of the leading scholars) describes this as follows: "Your hands should work while your heart remains in remembrance." The goal is to be among those who "remember Allah standing, sitting and lying down on their sides." (3:191)

I'd like to mention here that I have nothing against the Shadhili tariqa. Shaykh Nuh is mashAllah an amazing shaykh, and I always congratulate people when they take bay'ah with him... the means may be many but the End is One. I was just slightly hurt and saddened by everyone's lack of regard for one of few valid taraaiq out there... in not speaking up against a misconception and lack or respect shown to the Naqshbandi tariqa. Again, brother Abu Usama, I'm not saying anything against you.... had I had the same I experience I would have probably been frightened as well. I would simply have preferred it if someone had spoken up for the tariqa.

Someone in another thread mentioned that he sees sunniforum as "the rich kid's club" and I'm beginning to agree with him. In any rich kid's club there's a certain way to do things and if you don't do things that way or like the same things they like, you're shunned and ignored. I've seen that happen on more than one occasion on this board. I've noticed that the Shadili tariqa is the only way to go on here, and if you don't talk about the shadiliyya you're not talking about tasawwuf, therefore you should be ignored.

I think I've repeated my point frequently enough. I'm sorry for any redundance, rudeness or bitterness on my part. I suppose it's just that I hold the Naqshbandi tariqa and its mashaikh very close and dear to my heart and only want that others can experience the same beauty, let alone fear and misunderstand it based on something not-so-authentic.

Sincere apologies for anything I said that offended anyone. I just felt I needed to speak up. I was tired of staying quiet.

Walaikum assalaam warahmatAllah.


walaikum asalaam warahmatullahi wabarakatahu sister,

I tried pming you, but you don't accept pms :(

I really hope you read this post insha'Allah. I just wanted to tell you that I truly admire and value the naqshbandi tariqa as well. Shaykh Zulfiqar and his khulafa thru the mercy of Allah enlightened me with the beautiful path of tassawuff. I also have a lot of love and respect for them for the sake of Islam. I know many people on SF follow the shadhili tariqa, but not all.
I hope you come back here insha'Allah. :)

Join the sister's group if you wish to discuss further insha'Allah

[faqir]

Is the group dhikr with singing of spiritual poetry and rhythmic
swaying-the hadra-permitted?



In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful & Compassionate



Yes, the hadra is in itself permitted, as writings of major Hanafi
authorities make clear.

Among the imams of the Hanafi school who have specifically permitted it
are
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Kamal Basha, Imam Shurunbulali, Sayyidi Abd
al-Ghani
al-Nablusi, `Allama Abd al-Qadir `Isa-who cites proofs for it from the
major
Hanafi reference works, including Ibn Abidin-and Imam Ashraf Ali
al-Tahanawi
in his Imdad al-Fatawa (5.151).

It is simply one way of fulfilling the general sunna of group dhikr,
the
general and unconditional encouragement for which is authentically
established through numerous hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace
and
blessings be upon him).

Faraz Rabbani.

Please also see the following links in answer to your question:


The Sufi Hadra

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00003072.aspx


Gatherings of Dhikr

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00000783.aspx

An Analysis of the evidence supporting the permissibility of Majalis
(gatherings) of Zikr in the Masajid
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00002094.aspx

Wassalam,

Nadir Ahmed
Sunni Path Fiqh Team
<http://images.sunnipath.com/adclick.php?n=a525a7a6> Right-click here
to
download pictures. To help protect your privacy, Outlook prevented
automatic
download of this picture from the Internet.

[Saifullah]

Assalamu alaikum

This post has been rather interesting to read, and may Allah reward those who parted knowledge for his sake,ameen.

But i am still hesitant about this, and it seems the proofs provided are in relation to approval of certain acts, and by deduction it seems its allowed, can someone instead of posting the same evidence again and again, provide something which:

involves the prophet directly being seen or heard carrying out this act, may the perfect peace and blessings of Allah be upon our beloved prophet, or any of the prophets companions, may Allah be pleased with them ?

its a simple question, please dont make it complicated, and present something clear and simple from a reliable and authentic source.

A Slave in Need of Allah

Saifullah

[faqir]

Judging by what you have written, it may be worthwhile your reading sh. Nuh's article on bid'a found on www.masud.co.uk


The Public Dhikr (Hadra)

© Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1996.

A person coming to the Middle East to learn something about the tariqa is likely, at some point in his visit, to see the brethren in the hadra or “public dhikr” as it has been traditionally practiced by generations of Shadhilis in North Africa under such sheikhs as al-‘Arabi al-Darqawi, Muhammad al-Buzidi, and Ahmad al-‘Alawi before being brought to Damascus from Algeria by Muhammad ibn Yallis and Muhammad al-Hashimi at the beginning of this century.

Upon entering the mosque, one will see circles of men making dhikr (women participants are screened from view upstairs) standing and holding hands, now slightly bowing in unison, now moving up and down with their knees in unison, the rows rising and falling, breathing in unison, while certain of them alternate at pacing around their midst, conducting the tempo of the group’s motion and breathing with their arms and step. Singers near the sheikh, in solo or chorus, deliver mystical odes to the rhythm of the group; high, spiritual poetry from masters like Ibn al-Farid, Sheikh Ahmad al-‘Alawi, ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Himsi, and our own sheikh.

Though a very stirring experience, it is meticulously timed and controlled, and as with all group dhikrs, the main adab or “proper behaviour” is harmony. No one should stand out in any way, but rather all subordinate their movement, breathing, and dhikr to that of the group. The purpose is to forget one’s individuality in the collective sea of spirits making dhikr in unison. Individual motives, thoughts, and preoccupations are momentarily put aside by means of the Sacred Dance, of moving together as one, sublimating and transcending the limitary and personal through the timelessness of rhythm, conjoined with the melody of voices singing spiritual meanings.

It is an experience that joins those travelling towards Allah spiritually, socially, and emotionally. Few forget it, and visitors from the West to whom it is unfamiliar sometimes wonder if it is a bid‘a or “reprehensible innovation,” as it was not done in the time of the earliest Muslims, or whether it is unlawful (haram) or offensive (makruh); and why they see the ulama and righteous attending it in Damascus, Jerusalem, Aden, Cairo, Tripoli, Tunis, Fez, and wherever there are people of the path.

I was one of those who asked our sheikh about the relation of the hadra to the shari‘a or “Sacred Law” which is the guiding light of our tariqa. As Muslims, our submission to the law is total, and there are no thoughts or opinions after legally answering the question “Does the hadra agree with orthodox Islam?”

Because it comprises a number of various elements, such as gathering together for the remembrance of Allah (dhikr), singing, and dancing, we should reflect for a moment on some general considerations about the Islamic shari‘a before discussing each of these separately.

First, the Islamic shari‘a furnishes a comprehensive criterion for all possible human actions, whether done before or never done before. It classifies actions into five categories, the obligatory (wajib), whose performance is rewarded by Allah in the next life and whose nonperformance is punished; the recommended (mandub), whose performance is rewarded but whose nonperformance is not punished; the permissible (mubah), whose performance is not rewarded and whose nonperformance is not punished; the offensive (makruh), whose nonperformance is rewarded but whose performance is not punished; and the unlawful (haram), whose nonperformance is rewarded and whose performance is punished.

Now, Allah in His wisdom has made the vast majority of human actions permissible. He says in surat al-Baqara, “It is He who has created everything on earth for you” (Koran 2:29), which establishes the shari‘a principle that all things are mubah or permissible for us until Allah indicates to us that they are otherwise. Because of this, the fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) did not do this or that particular practice does not prove that it is offensive or unlawful, but only that it is not obligatory.

This is the reason that when shari‘a scholars speak of bid‘a, they do not merely mean an “innovation” or something that was never done before, which is the lexical sense of the word, but rather a “blameworthy innovation” or something new that no legal evidence in Sacred Law attests to the validity of, which is the shari‘a sense of the word. The latter is the bid‘a of misguidance mentioned in the hadith “The worst of matters are those that are new, and every innovation (bid‘a) is misguidance” (Sahih Muslim. 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 2.592: 867), which, although general in wording, scholars say refers specifically to new matters that entail something offensive or unlawful.

Imam Shafi‘i explains:

New matters are of two kinds: something newly begun that contravenes the Koran, sunna, the position of early Muslims, or consensus of scholars (ijma‘): this innovation is misguidance. And something newly inaugurated of the good in which there is no contravention of any of these, and is therefore something which although new (muhdatha), is not blameworthy. For when ‘Umar (Allah be well pleased with him) saw the [tarawih] prayer being performed [in a group by Muslims at the mosque] in Ramadan, he said, “What a good innovation (bid‘a) this is,” meaning something newly begun that had not been done before. And although in fact it had, this does not negate the legal considerations just advanced [n: i.e. that it furnishes an example of something that ‘Umar, who was a scholar of the Sahaba, praised as a “good innovation” despite his belief that it had not been done before, because it did not contravene the broad principles of the Koran or sunna]

(Dhahabi: Siyar a‘lam al-nubala’. 23 vols. Beirut: Mu’assassa al-Risala, 1401/1981, 10.70).

As for the practice of Muslims gathering together for group dhikr or the “invocation of Allah,” there is much evidence of its praiseworthiness in the sunna—aside from the many Koranic verses and the hadiths establishing the general merit of dhikr in every state—such as the hadith related by Bukhari:

Truly, Allah has angels going about the ways, looking for people of dhikr, and when they find a group of men invoking Allah, they call to one another, “Come to what you have been looking for!” and they circle around them with their wings up to the sky of this world.

Then their Lord asks them, though He knows better than they, “What do My servants say?” And they reply, “They say, Subhan Allah (“I glorify Allah’s absolute perfection”), Allahu Akbar (“Allah is ever greatest”), and al-Hamdu li Llah (“All praise be to Allah”), and they extoll Your glory.”

He says, “Have they seen Me?” And they answer, “No, by Allah, they have not seen You.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen Me?” And they say, “If they had seen You, they would have worshipped You even more, glorified You more, and said Subhan Allah the more.”

He asks them, “What do they ask of Me?” And one answers, “They ask You
paradise.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, My Lord, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have been more avid for it, sought it more, and been more desirous of it.”

Then He asks them, “From what do they seek refuge?” And they answer, “From hell.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have fled from it even more, and been more fearful of it.”

He says, “I charge all of you to bear witness that I have forgiven them.” Then one of the angels says, “So-and-so is among them, though he is not one of them but only came for something he needed.” And Allah says, “They are companions through whom no one who keeps their company shall meet perdition”

(Sahih al-Bukhari. 9 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint (9 vols. in 3). Beirut: Dar al-Jil, n.d., 8.107–8: 6408).

The last line of the hadith shows the highest approval for gatherings of dhikr in the religion of Allah. Some other accounts transmit the condemnation of Ibn Mas‘ud (Allah be well please with him) for gathering together to say Subhan Allah (perhaps out of fear of ostentation), but even if we were to grant their authenticity, the above hadith of Bukhari, containing the explicit approval of such gatherings by Allah and His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) suffices us from needing the permission of Ibn Mas‘ud or any other human being.

Further, the explicit mention of the various forms of dhikr in the hadith suffice in reply to certain contemporary “re-formers” of Islam, who attempt to reduce “sessions of dhikr” to educational gatherings alone by quoting the words of ‘Ata' (ibn Abi Rabah, Mufti of Mecca, d. 114/732), who reportedly said,

Sessions of dhikr are the sessions of [teaching people] the lawful and unlawful, how you buy, sell, pray, fast, wed, divorce, make the pilgrimage, and the like. (Nawawi: al-Majmu‘: Sharh al-Muhadhdhab. 20 vols. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Medina: al-Maktaba al-Salafiyya, n.d., 1.21).

Perhaps ‘Ata' intended to inform people that teaching and learning shari‘a are also a form of dhikr, but in any case it is clear from the Prophet’s explicit words (Allah bless him and give him peace) in the above hadith that “sessions of dhikr” cannot be limited to teaching and learning Sacred Law alone, but primarily mean gatherings of Muslims to invoke Allah in dhikr.

As for dancing, Imam Ahmad relates from Anas (Allah be well pleased with him), with a chain of transmission all of whose narrators are those of Bukhari except Hammad ibn Salama, who is one of the narrators of Muslim, that the Ethiopians danced in front of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace); dancing and saying [in their language], “Muhammad is a righteous servant.” The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “What are they saying?” And they said, “‘Muhammad is a righteous servant’”

(Musnad al-Imam Ahmad. 6 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint. Beirut: Dar Sadir, n.d., 3.152).

Other versions of the hadith clarify that this took place in the mosque in Medina, though in any case, the fact that dancing was done before the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) establishes that it is mubah or “permissible” in the shari‘a, for if it had been otherwise, he would have been obliged to condemn it.

For this reason, Imam Nawawi says:

Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman”

(Minhaj al-talibin wa ‘umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi, n.d., 152).

This is a legal text for the permissibility of both dancing and singing poetry from the Minhaj al-talibin, the central legal work of the entire late Shafi‘i school. Islamic scholars point out that if something which is permissible, such as singing poetry or dancing, is conjoined with something that is recommended, such as dhikr or gatherings to make dhikr, the result of this conjoining will not be offensive (makruh) or unlawful (haram).

Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied:

How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “. . . those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Koran 3:191). And ‘A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience

(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933–34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).

Now, Suyuti was a hadith master (hafiz, someone with over 100,000 hadiths by memory) and a recognized mujtahid Imam who authored hundreds of works in the shari‘a sciences, and his formal opinion, together with the previously cited ruling of Imam Nawawi in the Minhaj al-talibin, constitutes an authoritative legal text (nass) in the Shafi‘i school establishing that circles of dhikr which comprise the singing of spiritual poetry and dancing are neither offensive (makruh) nor unlawful (haram)—unless associated with other unlawful factors such as listening to musical instruments or the mixing of men and women—but rather are permissible.

To summarize, the hadra of our tariqa, consisting of circles of invocation of Allah (dhikr) conjoined with the singing of permissible poetry and dancing, is compatible with the Sacred Law of orthodox Islam; and when the latter elements facilitate presence of heart with Allah (as they do with most people who possess hearts), they deserve a reward from Allah by those who intend them as such. And this is the aim and importance of the hadra in the tariqa.

[tilmeedh]

Interesting little thing from Ibn Quddama's Mukhtasar Minhaj Al-Qasideen:


وقال على رضى الله عنه‏:‏ والله لقد رأيت أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فما أرى اليوم شيئاً يشبههم‏.‏ لقد كانوا يصبحون شعثاً غبراً، بين أعينهم أمثال ركب المعزى، قد باتوا لله سجداً وقياماً، يتلون كتاب الله تعالى، يراوحون بين جباههم وأقدامهم، فإذا أصبحوا فذكروا الله عز وجل، مادوا كما يميد الشجر في يوم الريح، وهملت أعينهم حتى تبل ثيابهم، والله لكأن القوم باتوا غافلين‏.

Also in Bidayah Wal-Nihayah.

[salman]

Interesting little thing from Ibn Quddama's Mukhtasar Minhaj Al-Qasideen:


Also in Bidayah Wal-Nihayah.

Also in the hiliyat of Abu Nu`aym.

[mh16388]

interesting thread.
wow.

i guess the people who will really have a problem with the hadra won't be the likes of salafis or those who generally stay away from innovations (good or bad) but in fact - the liberals!

they are going to be mad because the ulema constantly speak out against 'dance' and when they see that hadra is permitted by some ulema they will deem it as hypocrisy. obviously hadra isn't dance per se as they have in mind but still....troubling