Sh. Nuh Keller on Peace with Israel

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

I came across the following in an interview of Shaykh Nuh Keller which can be found on Sidi Masud's site:




VOC: As you sit there, very briefly, are you optimistic that something good can happen for the Palestinians? Or is the situation going from bad to worse?


SK: I don't know what the future may hold. However, there is a consensus throughout the world amongst everyone associated with the Israelis and the United States that there should be two nations in Palestine, that they should return to the 1967 borders, and that there should be sovereignty for each. And that Israel and Palestine should have peace and respect for each other within their own national boundaries.

Anything that can facilitate the implementation of this consensus will be beneficial. This is not something I'm pulling out of my pocket, but something plain to whoever looks at the press in Europe and throughout the world, and anywhere people are not Israeli, or worried about being re-elected in the United States' political process.

We hope that this consensus can lead to a just and lasting peace. And if it serves as a wake up call to see what's happening, then it will be a good thing that we may hope for something positive.




This was not something I had heard previously from any of the shuyukh.

Is a permanent two nation peace deal with Israel permissible according to Islam?

[IlyasLahoz]

Asalamu alaykum,


Is a permanent two nation peace deal with Israel permissible according to Islam?
walaikum assalam,
InshaAllah forgive my ignorance, but on what basis would it not be permissable?

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum brother Alexlahoz,

Here is an alternative view:


The Peace process and the Islamic Hukm



The Peace process in Palestine, which has been ongoing for the past 25 years has been sidelined due to the uprising which began late last year, 2001.

What is important for the Muslims to understand is the nature of the peace proposed for Palestine.

Allah reminds the Muslims in the Qur’an, “Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a night journey from the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haram) to the Farthest Mosque (Masjid al-Aqsa), whose precincts We did bless.” [TMQ 17:1]



A principle in al Usool states that ‘there is no ijtihad on clear cut texts’. Therefore, there is no place whatsoever for interpretation or having an opinion about any text in the Qur’an that has a clear-cut meaning. As regarding the Islamic verdict about disbelievers who occupy Muslim land, (i.e. Palestine), specified by conclusive and clear cut text, Allah (swt) ordered us in the Qur’an:



“O you who believe, fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like transgressors” [TMQ 2:190],



and Allah (swt) says, “Whoever commits aggression against you, attack him back in a like manner, and fear Allah” [TMQ 2:194].



The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said, “Whosoever dies defending his land dies a shahid (martyr).”



Furthermore, Islam forbids us to befriend them or show them any favour so as long they are occupying Muslim land. Allah (swt) says:



“Allah does not forbid you with regard to those who do not fight you over (your) Deen, nor drive you out of your home land, from dealing kindly and being righteous to them, for Allah loves those who are righteous. Do not ally and be good to those who fight you for your belief and throw you from your home land and those who assist them. Allah forbids you from doing that” [TMQ 60:8-9].



As regarding cease-fire treaties with the enemy (non-Muslims) who occupy Muslim land, it is known from Islam by necessity that we must fight them and there is no dispute about this.


However, regarding a cease-fire treaty with enemies who occupy Muslim land, these are not allowed except if four conditions, which are agreed upon by the four main schools of thought, are met and these conditions are as follows:



1. The contractor on behalf of the Muslims is the Khaleefah or his representative.

Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi reported on the authority of Abdullah lbnu Umar that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “Each one of you is a guardian, and each one will be questioned about those he is responsible for.”

Also, if we look to the time of the Messenger (saw), we find that he was the only one who contracted treaties. It was the Messenger (saw) who declared war on Quraysh, and on Banu Qurayzah, Banu Nazir, Banu Qaynuqa’, Khaybar and the Byzantines.

Therefore, the treaties which are contracted by current illegitimate leaders, or the leaders of any group, be they nationalist or Islamic, or anybody else, have no right to be part of any treaty with disbelievers who occupy Muslim land



2. The subject of the contract must be based on Islam and nothing else because Allah says, “But no, by your Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make you judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of what you decide, and submit with full submission.” [TMQ 4:65]

And the Prophet (SAW) said, “Any shart (condition or stipulation of a contract) not in the Book of Allah is batil (invalid and worthless).” (Al-Tabarani in Al-Mu‘jam al-Kabir, and Al-Suyuti authenticated it in his book al-Jami‘ al-Saghir volume 2 page 77).

The Messenger (saw) rebuked people who laid down conditions that contradicted the Shariah law, and the Messenger (saw) said, “What is the matter with those people who lay down conditions that are not from the Book of Allah? Any condition not in the Book of Allah is batil, even if there are a hundred of them. The judgment of Allah is the Truth, and the condition from Allah is Firm.” (Al-San‘ani, in Subl al-Salam, volume 3 page 10, with the wording of Bukhari).

Therefore, any treaty that contains any condition not valid in Islam, such as giving non-Muslims rights over Muslim land etc, is clearly batil.



3. The treaty must have a limited time period, because the treaty of Hudaybiyyah was limited to ten years, and Allah (SWT) said, after telling the Muslims to have a treaty with the disbelievers for four months, “So fulfill your treaty with them till the end of their term, for Allah loves those who fear Him. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them.” [TMQ 9:4-5].

After the Messenger (saw) conquered Makkah, he gave the various disbelievers four months, but in the treaty of Hudaybiyyah he gave them ten years (refer to the Seerah of Ibn Hisham). The scholars say that this means that Muslims in a strong position can have a truce with the disbelievers for a maximum of four months and in a weak position a maximum of ten years.



4. The treaty must secure the interests of Islam and the Muslim Ummah, which are defined by the Shariah



If any of these conditions are not met, the treaty is Batil. If we attempt to fit our current rulers into the four conditions above, they do not fulfill none of the conditions, for they are not the representatives of the Ummah, or the Khaleefah or his delegate; making peace with the Jews is not part of Islam; our rulers wish to make the peace not limited by time; and finally, it cannot be that a Muslim would think that this is in the interest of the Muslims.



Subsequently, it is well known that peace with Israel is haram, and that only the rulers in the Muslim lands seek to legitimise it, and make it acceptable to the Muslims. May Allah save us from this, Ameen

[faqir]

walaikum assalam,
InshaAllah forgive my ignorance, but on what basis would it not be permissable?



And I found this as well:




PEACE WITH ISRAEL IS HARAM



“Whosoever gives away a hand span of Islamic land Allah will grant him an equal hand span in Hell.” Hadith

As America rushes to conclude what they call the Peace Process with the help of the traitors who rule our lands, there is a bid from within the Muslims to assist the grand betrayal of giving most of Palestine to the Jews! These will naturally fail as all Muslims are aware that surrendering one inch of Palestine is haram.

This attempt by so-called Islamic organisations and individuals has been geared towards lending some legitimacy to the illegitimate peace process by appearing to oppose Israelfor its illegal occupation and treatment of Muslims. They successfully generate the emotions of the Muslims by highlighting the horrific acts of oppression the Jews carry out. But then they go on to present a non-Islamic solution which is America’s plan of two states on the Islamic lands of Palestine and justifying it by twisting Islamic evidences such as the Treaty of Hudaybiah.

A closer look at their rhetoric reveals that their talk of illegal occupation is taken from the UN and contradicts Islam. They speak of “37 years of occupation” going back to when the Jews entered the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 even though Israel was established in 1948 and Palestine had been under occupation by the British since 1917!

Is it a coincidence that America’s plan includes Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders so a nationalist secular puppet state called Palestine can be established in the West Bank and Gaza while Muslims surrender the remaining 80% of the land to the Jews and these slogans of “37 years of occupation”?

Recognizing the peace process and giving away any Muslim land to the disbelievers is haram. And never will Allah grant the disbelievers authority over the believers. [TMQ Nisa:141].

Allah only forbids you to make friendship with those who fought you on account of your faith and drove you out of your homes and backed up others in your expulsion. Those who will take them for friends are indeed the wrongdoers. (TMQ Mumtahana:9)

The Messenger (saw) said:

So, whoever seeks to divide Muslim land, kill him, whoever he may be. And Whosoever gives away a hand span of Islamic land Allah will grant him an equal hand span in Hell.

Al-Quds which contains the third most sacred mosque and its surroundings have been blessed by Allah (swt): Glory be to Him Who carried His servant (Muhammad) one night from Masjid-al-Haram to Masjid-al-Aqsa), whose vicinity We have blessed, so that We may show him some of Our signs: surely He is the One Who is the Hearer, the Observer. (TMQ Al-Israa :1)

When the Muslims under the leadership of Umar ibn al-Khattab conquered Palestine, one of the conditions stipulated in the Umari treaty was that Jews will be forbidden to reside in Ilya (the old name of Al-Quds). This is an ijma as-Sahaba (consensus of the companions) and is binding upon the Muslims until the Day of Judgement. This same minority of Muslims for who only the West Bank and Gaza are occupied are attempting to deny this ijma by falsely claiming it was abrogated - as if there was new revelation abrogating this when the Deen had been already completely revealed!

In 1901, Sultan Abdul Hamid demonstrated the Islamic stance regarding the selling-out of Islamic lands when Dr Hertzel, a leading Zionist figure, offered to buy Palestine from the Islamic State. Abdul Hamid’s famous response was that Palestine was not his to give away, it belonged to the Muslims who had irrigated it with their blood and that while he was alive, he would rather be cut to pieces rather than allow the Islamic lands to be dismembered.

Looking to the UN, International law, Human Rights groups and any other non-Islamic source for the solution to Palestine is haram. There is no dispute that Muslims must refer to Islam for the solutions to all their problems. Allah (swt) has ordered us to refer to Him and his Messenger (saw) and has condemned those who refer to disbelief:

Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (TMQ Maida:50)

Have you not seen those who claim that they believe in what has been revealed to you and other prophets before you? Yet they desire that the judgment (in their disputes) be made by Taghut (forces of Shaitan) though they were commanded to reject them, and Shaitan's wish is to lead them far astray into deep error. (TMQ Nisa:60)

The solution from Islam to those who occupy our lands has been revealed to us without ambiguity – only if those looking to capitulate would take heed:

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. [TMQ Baqara:190- 191]

Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. (TMQ Baqara:194)

So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam) and you should have the upper hand; for Allah is with you, and He will never put you in loss for your good deeds. (TMQ Muhammad:25)

Those who prefer the solutions of disbelief such as the UN and innovate many excuses to disregard the command of Allah should realize that It is not fitting for a believing man or a believing woman to have an option in their affairs when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has indeed strayed into a clearly wrong path. (TMQ Azhab:36)

As for those who justify peace with Israel using the Agreement of Hudaybiah, this is a malicious fabrication as there is no comparison. Hudaybiah did not concern occupied Muslim land but was a temporary ceasefire between 2 states. The Messenger did not surrender any Muslim land to the kuffar at Hudaybiah or any other time while the peace process requires permanently surrendering 80% of Palestine to the Jews. In fact, the agreement of Hudaybiah benefited the Muslims, strengthened the Islamic State and allowed for the spread of Islam in the surrounding areas of Medina. The Quraish in Mecca could do nothing as they had signed the temporary 10 year ceasefire which gave the Muslims time to expand and become stronger only to use this strength later to conquer Mecca.

In contrast, the peace process does the complete opposite by not only permanently surrendering Muslim land to the kuffar, but weakens Muslims and Islam by accepting this illegitimate entity in the heart of the Ummah and strengthens the kuffar against us. Besides, the only one who has the legal Islamic authority to conclude a treaty with a foreign nation on our behalf is the legitimate Islamic Head of State. The current rulers of our lands are the lowly slaves of America have no legitimacy to execute any matter on behalf of the Ummah and to support them is haram.

Would it have been possible that the best Ummah sent to mankind had not destroyed Israel long ago if we had a sincere Islamic leadership which unleashed the armed forces of the Muslim world against Israelto remove it from the face of this earth? Would this leadership have been begging for peace and 20% of Palestine knowing the Jews are cowardly and cursed, killers of prophets who Allah (swt) turned into monkeys and pigs unlike the current traitors who control our lands?

O Muslims! Resist and censor those who dare to promote that only the West Bank and Gaza are occupied and beg the kuffar to let them establish a freak entity in these areas called “Palestine”. Rebuke those who claim to speak in the name of Islam yet they prefer the UN’s resolutions over Allah’s (swt) commands. Insist that we only accept the Islamic solution which is Jihad. Insist that the agents of kuffer who rule our lands and have betrayed Allah (swt) must be removed and replaced by a single Islamic leadership for the whole Ummah which will mobilize the vast armed forces to annihilate the state of Israel and take back Palestine to be part of the Ummah once again – inshallah.

[IlyasLahoz]

Assalamu 'alaikum,
JazakAllahu Kahyr for responding so quickly.
Those are persuasive arguments indeed. Do you know of any non-HT/Ikhwan scholars who hold this same opinion?

[faqir]

Assalamu 'alaikum,
JazakAllahu Kahyr for responding so quickly.
Those are persuasive arguments indeed. Do you know of any non-HT/Ikhwan scholars who hold this same opinion?



Asalamu alaykum,

The following contains quotes from various sources on this issue:




http://www.islam.org.au/articles/11/PALS-RP2.HTM




The illegality of the sale of the land to the Jews

After the fall of the 'Uthmany Caliphate, the scholars of Palestine realised the size and danger of the plot which had been weaved, and the designs of the Jews to their land. So they gathered on 26 January 1935 in the Alaqsa mosque in the holy land and issued a Fatwa, the most important part of which states: "further, we the issuers of the Fatwa... after research and looking into what would arise from the sale of the land in Palestine to the Jews, with looking into the intents of the Zionists to Turn this holy Muslim land into Jewish land, taking it from the hands of its inhabitants and keeping them away from it...

"After looking at the fatwas which have been issued by the Muslim scholars in Iraq, Egypt, India, Morocco, Syria, Palestine, and other Muslim countries, which have unanimously agreed to the illegality of the sale of Palestinian land to the Jews, as well as broking or facilitating in any way or mean the sale of any land to the Jews, and the illegality of accepting this and keeping quiet over it. Further, all this has become with respect to each Palestinian knowing of the result and accepting it an act of apostasy and rejection of Islam..."

Then the scholars mentioned the various corruptions which arise from the sale of land to the Jews with respect to the expulsion of Muslims from their homes and the stopping the mention of The Name of Allah in His mosques, and befriending the Jews and supporting them against the Muslims and the betrayal of Allah and His Messenger.

"So let it be known from all that we have put forward of reasons results, statements, rulings, and fatwas that the one who sells his land in Palestine to the Jews, whether directly or through an agent, and the agent in this sale and the one who facilitates it and the one who assists in it in any manner knowing of the aforementioned results, each of those is not to be prayed over nor buried in the Muslim graves. They must also be ostracised and boycotted, as well as degrading them and abstaining from compassion towards them or coming near them whether they are fathers, children, brothers, or spouses.. Further, silence with respect to the deeds of these, and acquiescing to them is strictly forbidden.."

This accord was signed by two hundred and forty nine (249) scholars overall. It is a Fatwa declaring illegal to forego any part of Palestine.

[pp 30-35 Jamiat Alislah ed. Kuwait, and pp 5-11 Maarkaz Ali'lam Al'araby ed.]

On 29 November 1947 the scholars of Alazhar issued a call after the resolution of the United Nations to divide Palestine into two countries, a Jewish and a Palestinian. This call included: "The resolution of the United Nations is a resolution from a body without authority. It is an oppressive, and transgressing resolution which has no justice or equity." Then the Muslim scholars called for Jihad to liberate Palestine: "Block their path, and sit for them in every vantage point, boycott them with respect to their trade and do not deal with them, and prepare the requisites of Jihad amongst yourselves.. Fulfill what Allah has required of you..."



The illegality of a truce with the Jews

Then occurred the various treasons by the puppet Arabic governments which pursued the Mujahideen groups and stopped them from fighting against the Jews, and the country of Israel was established on the land of Palestine. Then in 1956 a committee of the scholars of Alazhar issued a Fatwa forbidding a truce with the new Jewish government which declared the truce with Israel - and those who incite to it - [I]"to be not permitted by law because of what it contains of acquiescing to the transgressor and allowing him to continue to usurp and entrench itself in the land.. So it is not permitted for the Muslims to reconcile with these Jews who have usurped the land of Palestine and transgressed against its people and their wealth in any manner whatsoever which will allow the Jews to remain on these holy Islamic lands as a nation. In fact, it is required of them to cooperate together with their varied tongues and colours and ethnicity to return this country to its people, and to protect the Alaqsa mosque... and to exert all they can to cleanse the land of the country from any trace of these transgressors. Whoever falls short in this or neglects it or discourages the Muslims from it or calls to whatever leads to the dispersion of the word and Muslims, and assists the colonialists and Zionists to fulfill their plans against the Arabs and the Muslims and against the Arabic and Islamic country is - according to the law of Islam - one who left the Muslims and committed the gravest of sins."



Palestine, an Islamic land

The Imam of Alazhar Hasan Ma`moun issued the following Fatwa: [I]"Palestine is a land liberated by the Muslims who have lived therein for a long time, so it has become a part of the Islamic countries, most of its inhabitants are Muslims, there resides amongst them a minority of other religions, so it is a Muslim country wherein Muslim law applies". . . and added "The attack of the enemy against a Muslim country is not accepted under Islamic law regardless of its reasons and motives. The land of Islam must remain in the hand of its people... What is required of the Muslims in the situation of transgression against any Islamic country - and there is no distinction amongst Muslims - is Jihad against the enemy with force, and this is an individual obligation upon all its people. . . so when all the Muslim countries are regarded as a home for every Muslim, the duty of Jihad forms an obligation upon its people first, and upon other Muslims who live in other countries second."



Jihad: the Path to Liberation

The most recent Fatwa which has issued in this matter is the one which had been signed by sixty three scholars and thinkers from eighteen countries, this is some of what came in it: [I]"We declare with what Allah has taken upon us of oath to reveal the truth that Jihad is the only path to liberate Palestine, and that it is not permitted in any situation to acknowledge one hand span of Palestinian land for the Jews. It does not fall on any person or group to acknowledge a right for the Jews to Palestine or to forego to them any part thereof or thereto.

Such an acknowledgment would be treason to Allah and the messenger and the trust which all Muslims have been trusted to guard, Allah says: "O those who have believed, do not betray Allah and the messenger, and do not betray your trusts whilst you are knowing." What treason is bigger than the sale of the sanctities of the Muslims and the forfeiture of the Muslim countries to the enemies of Allah and His messenger and the believers?

We stress that Palestine is Muslim land and will remain so and it will be liberated by the champions of Islam from the filth of the Jews as it had been liberated by Salahuddin from the filth of the crusaders, and you will hear of this after some time.." [ibid pp 51 & 52]

...........








A translation of the entire fatwa from the Ulema of all four Madhahib as quoted above from the 26th of January 1935 can be heard at:

http://www.karimia.fortnet.co.uk//26thMarchTalk1.wma



[It is a talk by Sh. Abu Ja'far al Hanbali - skip forward to around 15 minutes]

Wasalam.

[IlyasLahoz]

assalamu 'alaikum,
JazakAllahu Khair once more.
I don't mean to nit-pick, and in fact I'll explain why I'm asking so many questions below, but the site you referenced
The following contains quotes from various sources on this issue: http://www.islam.org.au/articles/11/PALS-RP2.HTM

seems, at least at first glance, quite the modernist/salafi type website. Case in point, their article on aqidah http://www.islam.org.au/articles/19/aqeedah.htm, with it's 3 tawhids, is the precisely type of extrasunni confusion one finds in the typical Saudi funded wahabi/reformer/neo-salafi literature, wallahu Alam.

As for my repeated questioning, I apologize if it seems too much, but the your original inquiry appeared to question the Islamic validity of Shaykh Nuh Keller's statement -may Allah preserve him-. Given the seriousness of the subject (our beloved land of Falasteen) and the equally serious nature of questioning a scholar of Shaykh Nuh's stature, I assumed that you had some dispositve evidence, some irrefutable scholarship from whence you had derived the notion that ikhtilaf was impossible on the issue. In fact you've not shown it.
I think, then, that your initial query
Is a permanent two nation peace deal with Israel permissible according to Islam can safely be answered in the affirmative, the proof for it being the very statement that led to your question.
And Allah knows best...
wasalamu 'alaikum

[ahl-e-bayt]

If making peace with israel is haram then the only option muslims have is jihad. Now how do muslims wage jihad when they dont even have a Muslim state that can declare jihad?

So does that mean we cant fight them but neither can we live in peace?

Isnt it better to live and let live in harmony and reach some sort of settlement. I mean you quoted the Quran but i think it was out of context in some cases. True that the palestinians were wronged and their land taken away. But now how do we deal with the situation? Palestinians have fought long enough to know that war never got them anything except more refugees,deaths, and social problems. Palestinans need social development and a promising future.

Please name one respectabel scholar like Sheikh Nuh who says that peace with israel is not possible.

[faqir]

assalamu 'alaikum,
JazakAllahu Khair once more.
I don't mean to nit-pick, and in fact I'll explain why I'm asking so many questions below, but the site you referenced
seems, at least at first glance, quite the modernist/salafi type website. Case in point, their article on aqidah http://www.islam.org.au/articles/19/aqeedah.htm, with it's 3 tawhids, is the precisely type of extrasunni confusion one finds in the typical Saudi funded wahabi/reformer/neo-salafi literature, wallahu Alam.

As for my repeated questioning, I apologize if it seems too much, but the your original inquiry appeared to question the Islamic validity of Shaykh Nuh Keller's statement -may Allah preserve him-. Given the seriousness of the subject (our beloved land of Falasteen) and the equally serious nature of questioning a scholar of Shaykh Nuh's stature, I assumed that you had some dispositve evidence, some irrefutable scholarship from whence you had derived the notion that ikhtilaf was impossible on the issue. In fact you've not shown it.
I think, then, that your initial query can safely be answered in the affirmative, the proof for it being the very statement that led to your question.
And Allah knows best...
wasalamu 'alaikum


Asalamu alaykum brother,

Despite the fact that the source for my pasted excerpt may be modernist I do not think the actual quotes themselves from large bodies of scholars of Al-Azhar or otherwise can be simply dismissed - references have been provided for anyone who would like to check their authenticity. The first quoted excerpt from the gathering of scholars in 1935 can also be heard in full from Sh. Abu Ja'far al Hanbali who is not a Salafi/Modernist. [I have provided the link to his talk above]. He appears to suggest that what was mentioned at that gathering constituted consensus at his website's forum: [ see: http://212.67.202.62/~security/htspub/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=33&func=view&id=600&catid=5 ]

Wasalam.

[IlyasLahoz]

Asalamu alaykum brother,

Despite the fact that the source for my pasted excerpt may be modernist I do not think the actual quotes themselves from large bodies of scholars of Al-Azhar or otherwise can be entirely dismissed...

Wasalam.
Walaikum assalam,
You are right akhi, and perhaps I shouldn't have even addressed the ancillary matter of that website's worldview.
The crux of my post though, is that information you presented, while thought-provoking, and perhaps even persuasive, in no way precludes qualified scholars who are familliar with the subject from making an informed analysis which differs.
That is not to say one has to accept this view, it simply means that on matters where scholars disagree, we lay people should accept their right to do so without implying that they have taken an unlawful position.
And Allah knows best.
wasalamu'alaikum

[faqir]

Walaikum assalam,
You are right akhi, and perhaps I shouldn't have even addressed the ancillary matter of that website's worldview.
The crux of my post though, is that information you presented, while thought-provoking, and perhaps even persuasive, in no way precludes qualified scholars who are familliar with the subject from making an informed analysis which differs.
That is not to say one has to accept this view, it simply means that on matters where scholars disagree, we lay people should accept their right to do so without implying that they have taken an unlawful position.
And Allah knows best.
wasalamu'alaikum


Asalamu alaykum bro,

I agree. I actually came across the excerpt from Sh. Nuh's [may Allah preserve him] interview whilst browsing through sidi Mas'ud's forum which prompted me to post it here. Anyways, I will tend to agree with what Sh. Abu Ja'far mentioned here: http://212.67.202.62/~security/htspub/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=33&func=view&id=600&catid=5
[other than, I suppose, the view that there is consensus on this issue]

And, I guess, others can make their minds up for themselves...

Jazakallah khair.

Wasalam.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

knowing a little bit of what Shaykh Nuh is about, and how he speaks - i don't believe firstly that he is issuing a fatwa on the matter, nor is he giving the hukm shari'i on the matter as well.

to quote again:

"I don't know what the future may hold. However, there is a consensus throughout the world amongst everyone associated with the Israelis and the United States that there should be two nations in Palestine, that they should return to the 1967 borders, and that there should be sovereignty for each. And that Israel and Palestine should have peace and respect for each other within their own national boundaries."

this is fact - note his words - everyone associated with the US and Israel...

"Anything that can facilitate the implementation of this consensus will be beneficial."

again, this will be beneficial without a doubt. although there are groups in Palesting who want to expel the Jews from the whole land, a large percentage would happily settle for their own state without Jewish expansion or involvement.

"We hope that this consensus can lead to a just and lasting peace. And if it serves as a wake up call to see what's happening, then it will be a good thing that we may hope for something positive."

again, i believe that he has been most careful with his words. He has accepted that the real players in this issue are the US and Israel - it is they who ultimately control whats happening in Palestine. The PLO will accept a two-state deal.

Shaykh Nuh has not mentioned anything at all about armed resistance, Jihad or defence of Muslim lands - and thus we are not in a position to question what his stance is on the matter; secondly, Shaykh Nuh sees the reality of what is going on there.

[IlyasLahoz]

JazakAllah Khair Sidi Shaykhs-Pir,
Your comment was really helpful.

[faqir]

as salamu alaykum

knowing a little bit of what Shaykh Nuh is about, and how he speaks - i don't believe firstly that he is issuing a fatwa on the matter, nor is he giving the hukm shari'i on the matter as well.

to quote again:

"I don't know what the future may hold. However, there is a consensus throughout the world amongst everyone associated with the Israelis and the United States that there should be two nations in Palestine, that they should return to the 1967 borders, and that there should be sovereignty for each. And that Israel and Palestine should have peace and respect for each other within their own national boundaries."

this is fact - note his words - everyone associated with the US and Israel...

"Anything that can facilitate the implementation of this consensus will be beneficial."

again, this will be beneficial without a doubt. although there are groups in Palesting who want to expel the Jews from the whole land, a large percentage would happily settle for their own state without Jewish expansion or involvement.

"We hope that this consensus can lead to a just and lasting peace. And if it serves as a wake up call to see what's happening, then it will be a good thing that we may hope for something positive."

again, i believe that he has been most careful with his words. He has accepted that the real players in this issue are the US and Israel - it is they who ultimately control whats happening in Palestine. The PLO will accept a two-state deal.

Shaykh Nuh has not mentioned anything at all about armed resistance, Jihad or defence of Muslim lands - and thus we are not in a position to question what his stance is on the matter; secondly, Shaykh Nuh sees the reality of what is going on there.


Salam alaykum,

JazakAllah khair Akhi, that cleared things up.

:)

Wasalam.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Why were no references (names of scholars or councils of scholars) given for the first two fatawa that say any peace with Isra'il is haram?

[Mossy]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Why were no references (names of scholars or councils of scholars) given for the first two fatawa that say any peace with Isra'il is haram?

The first is a HT fatwalite I believe. The second I'm not sure about, sounds like another HT dooda. Possibly a wotsit.

[faqir]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Why were no references (names of scholars or councils of scholars) given for the first two fatawa that say any peace with Isra'il is haram?


They are both from HT sources.

However, the third post had plenty of references from the fatawa of Al-Azhar.



Furthermore, if you would like to hear the names of the signatories to the following fatwa please listen to the talk by Sh. Abu Ja'far al Hanbali at http://www.karimia.fortnet.co.uk//26thMarchTalk1.wma [shift forward to around 16minutes]





It is to be stated that Muslim scholars have unanimously agreed that it is haram (unlawful) to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. In a large meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on 26 January 1935, a host of scholars gave their Fatwa concerning the legality or otherwise of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews. The content of the Fatwa is as follows:

"All praise and thanks are due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and blessings be upon His trustworthy Messenger, His kith and kin, his companions, and all those who follow their guidance until the Day of Judgment.

To commence: we, the muftis, judges, instructors, orators, Imams, preachers and all Muslim scholars in Palestine, gathered today in this religious meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, the neighborhood whereof Allah has blessed. After a thorough analysis and deep thought as for the consequences of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews, we come to the conclusion that this would fulfill the objectives of Zionism, which aims at the Judaization of Islamic holy lands, usurping them and expelling people from their homes. This (i.e. selling the lands) would, moreover, erase the traces of Islam by demolishing mosques, places of worship as well as Islamic holy places. This has already taken place in the villages that were sold to the Jews; they expelled their inhabitants and rendered them homeless. There is fear lest this –Allah forbid – might occur in Al-Aqsa Mosque, the first of the two Qiblas (direction of prayer) and the third of the holy Mosques.

Reviewing the Fatwas given by Muslim muftis and scholars in Iraq, Egypt, India, Morocco, Syria, Palestine and other Muslim countries, we found out that they have unanimously agreed that it is haram to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. The scholars have also declared unlawful that a person should accept this or show reticence about it. Should any Palestinian get involved in any of these activities, he will be considered fully aware of its consequences and satisfied with it – which means that he will be accused of disbelief and apostasy if he comes to deem it halal (lawful) to do so. This has been stated in the fatwa given by his Eminence Sheikh Amin Al-Husayni, the mufti of Jerusalem and the head of the supreme Islamic council.

Having examined all the aforementioned Fatwas, we voice our support and approval that the seller of, broker and mediator in selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews is to be regarded as:

1) Supporting and helping in the expulsion of Muslims from their homes;

2) Preventing Allah’s Name to be mentioned in Allah’s mosques and endeavoring for their ruing;

3) Taking the Jews as patrons and supporters, since his action implies his assistance and helping them against Muslims;

4) Doing harm to Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Believers (Muslims);

5) And as betraying Allah, His Messenger and the responsibility he was entrusted with. This prohibition of selling the Palestinian lands finds support in the following verses of the Glorious Qur'an:

“O you who believe! Betray not Allah and his Messenger, nor betray knowingly your moral responsibilities (entrusted to you). And know that your possession and your children are but a trial and that surely with Allah is a mighty reward.” (Al-Anfal: 27-28)

“And those who harm believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.” (Al-Ahzab: 58)

“And who is more unjust than those who forbid that Allah’s Name be glorified and mentioned much in Allah’s mosques and strive for their ruin? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is disgrace in this world, and will have a great torment in the hereafter.” (Al-Baqarah: 114)

“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, them such are the wrongdoers.” (Al-Mumtahanah: 8-9)

“O you believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends.” (Al-Mumtahanah: 1)

“And if any amongst you takes them as supporters them surely he is of them.” (Al-Ma’idah: 51) Exegetes of the Qur’an mention that “he is one of them” means he is considered one of them (one enemy of Allah) and thus be punished the same way as them.

From all the foregoing evidence, sayings, judgments and Fatwas, we conclude that the one who sell land to the Jews in Palestine – whether he does so directly or through mediation – and anyone who acts as a broker, or mediator in the selling as well as anyone who facilitates the sale in any way, while being fully aware of the aforesaid consequences, must not be offered the Funeral Prayer when dead or buried in the Muslims cemetery. We must boycott, scoff at them and not be friendly or close to them even if they were our fathers, children, brothers or husbands. Allah says: “O you who believe! Take not for supporters and helpers your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to belief. And whoever of your wives, your kindred, the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which your fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you delight … are dearer to you than Allah and his Messenger, and striving hard and fighting in His cause, then wait until Allah brings about His Decision. And Allah guides not the people who are disobedient to Allah.” (At-Tawbah: 23-24)

Likewise, showing reticence and indifference to such a despicable act is absolutely unlawful, (as Allah says “O you believe! Answer Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life, and know that Allah comes in between a person and his heart. And verily to Him you shall be gathered. And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular those of you who do and know that Allah is severe in punishment.” (Al-Anfal: 24-25)

May Allah make us amongst those who listen to admonition and follow the best thereof. He is indeed our supreme patron and He is for sure the Best Disposer of Affairs. Issued on 20 Shawwal, 1533 A.H / 26 January 1935 C.E."

Taken from publications of Al-Maktab Al-I`lami Al-`Arabi (the Arab Media Office) Cairo, Egypt.

[mer]

They are both from HT sources.

Good to know, jazaks for saying that.

Maybe I'm qualified to say this becuase of my lack of knowledge, but isnt anything that leads to an end to the violence and is relatively fair (a two state solution) good thing? Also, we Muslims need to be MUCH more careful about how we say things. I read some where that the "non-Muslims" are our enemies. The overwhelming majority are in fact not out to get us and they're good people. And I think saying its haram to sell Palestinian land to the "Jews" is a bit broad too. Even before the establishment of Israel, there were always Jews living in Palestine, and I'm sure selling land to them was fine then. And again, you can't put all Jews in one category.

Allahu Alim.

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

May I ask why everyone is focusing on the two articles from HT sources and ignoring the other article with quotes from Non-HT, scholarly sources as well as the above fatwa from 1935 upon which as mentioned by Sidi Abu ja'far there was consensus across the Muslim lands?

Oh and I am not with HT, never have been and never intend to be, InshaAllah.

[mer]

Salaam,

sorry if it sounded like I was generalizing, I was just responding to the HT stuff that was posted, didnt mean to ignore everything else.