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ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 01:58 PM
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Salafi
20-08-2007, 02:38 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.


Audio cassette on Purification Of the Heart, recorded at a lecture in Birmingham.

Shaykh Bilal Philips worked on gently persuading his Parents on accepting Islam for many years...almost on the verge of accepting when they come across Shaykh Deedat (Ra) he starts quoting verses from the Bible, teaching them that Christianity is wrong etc....

The parents were both left quite upset in the direct way they were addressed and were nearly driven away Shaykh Philips had to work really hard into guiding towards the deen again.

well sh. ahmad deedat as a well known for his refutations. if christians would go to him and or listen his casettes, then the reason is simple if he refuted shirk and they got upset what can anybody say. if the case is such that you have explained then shaikh bilal philips should not denounced ahmad deedat.

now answer my question. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=222881&postcount=473

i dont want to start new thread because it will mostly likely be closed within min. my first thread on these forums was even deleted from the archive though i didnt use any objectionable words or phrases. it was there in archive but some so called truesalafi posted on it after several months and they just wiped it out. they cant bear the load of refutations LOL.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 02:47 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Look into the work of Shaykh Masood Azhar (Db) ,answer is clear My brother, better still get a copy of the book I mentioned "Independence Complete or Partial".....

Each group primarily addressing different issues but all working for the same objective.

A) The Madaris

B) The Khanqahs

C) Tabligh and Dawah groups.

D) finaly the Mujahadeen and Political groups ( Such as Jaish).


All these have been clearly discussed by Shaykh Masood Azhar (DB).


Also e-Teacher has given you permission to start a new thread on the issue........So start one.

Ansari
20-08-2007, 03:01 PM
The need to learn fiqh and Tajweed.


This is the statement you posted about Mawlana Masood Azhar:


That was an era when the Tablighi Ahbaab ( those who associate in Tabligh) complied with their elders advice to refrain from all subjects outside the six points. That was an era when the beloved Tablighis would be seen weeping before Allah more and talking less.

We have people criticizing tabligh because there is no real concentration fiqh, and on the other hand we have others who say that tabligh should be confined to the 6 numbers.

There isnt much option in the west when you have people following different imams in fiqh.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 03:07 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Read e-Teachers comments brother Ansari, as for learning fiqh and Tajweed there is nothing to stop the Brothers from learning in there own time.Or utilising the knowledge of scholar or Qari who is in Jamaat with them to learn these subjects.

Maulana Masood (Db) is talking about ordinary Tablighs engaging in debates on issues for which they are not qualified to speak on. Read the whole chapter in its full context.

Ansari
20-08-2007, 03:09 PM
Also, about that 95%~99% figure...I would go as high as 99.9% :)


Earlier you came with an accusation of exaggerating numbers:


Do you think I just threw out that 95% number like the typical Tableeghy habit of inflating numbers? Tableegh people are quite famous for exaggerating numbers and figures. If there are 10 people sitting in a gathering, they'll say there were 25 people

Now do please tell us which authentic, scientific research you have carried out to present us with such numbers? How many tablighi's did u observed? How many in Europe outside the UK where the work is mostly done by moroccans? How many arab tablighis all over the world?

ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 03:15 PM
Brother Julaybib, as I have posted before, alims and qari's or even good reciters of the quran are utilised in the jamaat. The problem in this thread is that one minute there are people criticising the actual work itself and then criticise the workers. The problem lies with individuals brother Julaybib. The effort has always been about encouragement. If people within the effort are not heeding the advice of the elders then it is an individual fault which should be directed at that individual.

Ansari
20-08-2007, 03:24 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Read e-Teachers comments brother Ansari, as for learning fiqh and Tajweed there is nothing to stop the Brothers from learning in there own time.Or utilising the knowledge of scholar or Qari who is in Jamaat with them to learn these subjects.

Maulana Masood (Db) is talking about ordinary Tablighs engaging in debates on issues for which they are not qualified to speak on. Read the whole chapter in its full context.

Actually, the quote is quite clear for everyone to read. Fiqh is not a primary focus when going out on jamaat or when you do taleem [even though i know lots of brothers who would perfectly tell you the wajib and sunnah acts of ghusl etc. so i dont know where that complain came from]. What brothers do in their own time, is their choice. It has nothing to do with tablighi jamaat itself but what a muslim individual wants for himself.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 03:30 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Brother Enigma...as far as issue of learning Tajweed and Fiqh goes.....I actually believed that Brothers who joined the Jamaat were taught these things it is only after reading this thread and comments.....That I discovered these things are not taught.

Also someone Posted the Words Of Maulana Ilyas (Ra).....He clearly expected those participating in Tabligh to learn religious knowledge, for there own benefit.

Their is massive wisdom in the Six points as far as Dawah work goes....surely Brothers need to learn other sciences and consider them important as has been implied by Many posters who have been in Tabligh.

Also How do you think these Problems can actually be addressed that have been raised on this thread brother Enigma?

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 03:40 PM
As salaam Alaykum.


Brother Ansari.


The quote is clear in the previous paragraph of Maulana Masood Azhar (Db)....Brothers of Tabligh should not discuss delicate differences in.

Makkan era and Medina era...Hasanli aynihi and Hasaan Li ghayrihi....Jihad e akbar, and Jihad e asghar..

So why completely ignore the previous paragraph of Maulana Masood azhar (Db)

ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 03:43 PM
Basic tajweed is taught. obviously, if there is no qari or even a good reciter then of course there will be limits as to how much progress can be made, though targheeb and advice is given to seek a qari/alim and rectify ones mistake. Wil ilm/fiqh, the elders say that it should not be done collectively, due primarily down to differing madhabs and also difference of opinion even within the same school of thought. When ive been in jamaat and we've had an alim and all the same school of thought brothers, then we have gone through fiqh issues, like wudhu,ghusl,salaah and then of course ive sat down on many occasions within jamaat with alims to discuss various other personal issues.

Ive always said brothey julaybib, that if one can, then they should personaly go to the elders who are welcoming and will listen to criticism. There is gathering inshallah this weekend in Dewsbury and I fully expect these issues to be pointed out to the workers from the elders. Please, let me be very clear about one thing. Issues are constantly addressed to the workers by the elders, but it is down to individual shortcomings for not taking the advice.

I know of no brother involved in the effort who puts another effort down.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 03:52 PM
Salaam's

Well personally I have found this thread quite beneficial it has forced me to do my research learn why their is great emphasis put on only the Six points...look at how and why the movement was set up. Indeed my respect and Love for Maulana
Ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (Ra) has only increased.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Salaam's

I don't think i have any further benefit to be gained in participating on this thread.

I was going to Quote some inspiring stories from the Biography of Shaykh Yusuf Khandelwi (Ra).

But I am sure most of the Tablighi brothers will have already read it.

So I have decided to extract myself from this thread.

ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 04:04 PM
You'll be back brother Julaybib :D . I think we're all waiting for Maulana Nazim's post which he commented a while back that he still had to mention a few issues.

Ansari
20-08-2007, 04:07 PM
The quote is clear in the previous paragraph of Maulana Masood Azhar (Db)....Brothers of Tabligh should not discuss delicate differences in.

Makkan era and Medina era...Hasanli aynihi and Hasaan Li ghayrihi....Jihad e akbar, and Jihad e asghar..

So why completely ignore the previous paragraph of Maulana Masood azhar (Db)

That was the same point i was making i.e. dont deal with technical fiqhi issues and refrain yourself to the 6 points in your talks. Thats what he literally said. At the same time non-tablighi ulama should be allowed to talk and other deeni efforts should not be belittled.

ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 04:14 PM
Brother Ansari, I must have made that same point so many times in this thread, that there are basic fundamental reasons for not discussing fiqh whilst IN JAMAAT. Brother Ansari, people just need to get a concept of the fact we are encouraged to do tajweed/fiqh etc in our own time. people think, 'oh they dont do fiqh/tajweed in jamaat, thats it, there are against teaching those things'. which is so far from the truth.

Ansari
20-08-2007, 04:25 PM
Brother Ansari, I must have made that same point so many times in this thread, that there are basic fundamental reasons for not discussing fiqh whilst IN JAMAAT. Brother Ansari, people just need to get a concept of the fact we are encouraged to do tajweed/fiqh etc in our own time. people think, 'oh they dont do fiqh/tajweed in jamaat, thats it, there are against teaching those things'. which is so far from the truth.

I think people need to understand the primary goals of tabligh. Indeed, the guidelines of the ulama [also non-tablighi] have always been like that.

Regards to their criticism. Its like saying: Why arent tablighi's doing jihad? And this is how Mufti Desai rightly answered:


Why the Tabligh brothers are singled out for not engaged in Jihaad? Is every one else engaged in Jihaad?

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7960

Why single out tablighi's? Why single out tablighi's for tajweed when the whole ummah is lacking in tajweed? Why single them out for fiqh? When so many persons are lacking in fiqhi masails...

It becomes a different matter when deeni issues and other kind of religious knowledge outside tabligh are belittiled.

ENIGMA
20-08-2007, 04:38 PM
This is why I have found this thread so alien as all these points are new to me as I generally try and heed the advice of the elders. I have friends who are involved in different types of efforts to revive deen, and it's never been an issue for me. I have my tajweed regularlly checked by a good friend who is an alim and a brilliant reciter, who I also speak to about masails. Ive just checked, ive got about 20 scholars numbers stored on my phone who I consult on various issues. And guess what, majority of them do not spend any time in jamaat.

Yahya Bhai
20-08-2007, 06:35 PM
Salaam's

I don't think i have any further benefit to be gained in participating on this thread.

I was going to Quote some inspiring stories from the Biography of Shaykh Yusuf Khandelwi (Ra).

But I am sure most of the Tablighi brothers will have already read it.

So I have decided to extract myself from this thread.

pls quote.
I haven't read.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 06:49 PM
Salaam's

Purchase the Book....Plus all these lengthy posts take me ages to write considering I am not very good at typing.Also time i am spending is interfering with other stuff. .........So I also need to overcome my addiction to SunniForum.

Salafi
20-08-2007, 08:11 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Look into the work of Shaykh Masood Azhar (Db) ,answer is clear My brother, better still get a copy of the book I mentioned "Independence Complete or Partial".....

Each group primarily addressing different issues but all working for the same objective.

A) The Madaris

B) The Khanqahs

C) Tabligh and Dawah groups.

D) finaly the Mujahadeen and Political groups ( Such as Jaish).


All these have been clearly discussed by Shaykh Masood Azhar (DB).


Also e-Teacher has given you permission to start a new thread on the issue........So start one.

its evident that you dont want to answer my question though its simple and straight forward. though it looks that they are working to acheive the same goal but the manhaj varies. you continue. i wont start a new thread. u asked me a question in this thread i replied but you didnt.

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 09:21 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Here is your answer Salaafi Brother since you dont wish to start a new thread here it is.

The Manhaj of Maulana Masood Azhar (Db) Is correct.

The Manhaj Maulana Mohammed Ilyas (Ra) is correct.

The Manhaj of all The Ulama e deoband is Correct and in accordance with the Sunnah.

Maulana Ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (Ra) are the spiritual forefathers of Maulana Masood Azhar (Db) he regards both of them with utmost respect and Honour he himself does not consider anything wrong with their Manhajj so what is your argument.

If in doubt read this here is your
answer, The words of Maulana Yusuf Khadhlewi (Ra) Read and learn.


http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=687

Julaybib
20-08-2007, 09:32 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

The Manhaaj is simple to guide people towards Deen, towards tahweed, towards Allah, towards the Sunnah.

I do not see what the purpose of your argument is....cuz it does not make any sense...

The objective of doing Dawah is to guide people towards the deen and get them practicing there religion. This is what the Tabligh Jamaat do.

Only thing I understand from your argument is that people should be condemned..Well
the true method is to guide people.towards the deen that is what the Tablighi Jamaat has been doing successfully across the world...Were entire populations of people were in danger of losing their religion and becoming murtaad it was the Tablighi Jamaat.That help save their Imaan, Alhamdolillah.



Since you keep hijacking this thread, I will start a thread and you can argue your case...
Of Manhajjs. Cuz frankly I have no real interest in this useless argument it makes no sense has no logic.

After all is using the internet for Dawah is that Sunnah.

Using audio lectures for Dawah is that Sunnah.

Using Pamphlets for Dawah is that sunnah.

So indeed the method of Tablighi Jamaat is more in accordance with Sunnah then any used by Salaafi groups.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 05:07 PM
We have people criticizing tabligh because there is no real concentration fiqh, and on the other hand we have others who say that tabligh should be confined to the 6 numbers.

There isnt much option in the west when you have people following different imams in fiqh.

Maulana Masood Azhar was talking about speeches when he said they should stick to the 6 numbers because he noticed that they started criticizing other Islamic efforts in their speeches and started discussing about matters which they didn't have much knowledge about.

About the Fiqh aspect, if everyone follows the same Imam in Fiqh, what's the harm in discussing it? What's wrong with offering basic fiqh classes at Markazas? Why don't Markaza's offer Tajweed classes?

Just the other day, I saw a Jamat brother, who has spent four months, performing prayers in the Masjid before Jumuah prayers when it was Makruh time. The person is a hardcore Hanafi. This is just one example of not knowing the basic simple Fiqh.

The root problem is that Jamat brothers have taken Tabligh effort to be complete Deen and they are so into it that they don't learn anything else. Whatever little they learn from Tabligh, they think that's enough for them and that's why they never progress in their knowledge. The effort has been going on for 80 years, and the same problem is still there so they should come up with a solution to the problem because people think it's more important to go in 40 days jamat than it is to take Tajweed classes or basic fiqh classes.

The Prophets had 3 primary duties:

1) Tableegh
2) Taleem
3) Tazkiyah

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

"He is the One who raised amidst the unlettered people a messenger from among themselves who recites to them His verses, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the wisdom, while they were earlier in open error." (Mufti Taqi translation-62:2)

The problem with Jamat people is that they have held onto the first point so strongly that they have disregarded the other two i.e. Taleem and Tazkiyah.

They have understood Taleem to be reading out of Fadhail A'amal.

That's why I've come to this conclusion that a person's full rectification can not be done through the effort of Tabligh. Yes, the Shalwar Kamees will come on and yes, the outward Islamic look will be there and a person will start performing his prayers. But other than that, the spiritual sicknesses can not be cured through Tabligh. My advice to those who are involved in Tabligh is that involve youself with Tasawwuf. Many issues are discussed there which you will NEVER hear in Tabligh. At a minimum, choose a scholar who you are inclined towards and listen to his speeches on various topics and try your best to act upon them. The Tabligh effort does not discuss the major issues through which a person can be rectified spiritually.

sahih-baba
21-08-2007, 05:20 PM
:lol: @ toronto shareef :lol:

why don't deobandi ulema just abolish it and encourage seeking sacred knowledge including tasawwuf? (yes i am naive :cheesygri )


Maulana Masood Azhar was talking about speeches when he said they should stick to the 6 numbers because he noticed that they started criticizing other Islamic efforts in their speeches and started discussing about matters which they didn't have much knowledge about.

About the Fiqh aspect, if everyone follows the same Imam in Fiqh, what's the harm in discussing it? What's wrong with offering basic fiqh classes at Markazas? Why don't Markaza's offer Tajweed classes?

Just the other day, I saw a Jamat brother, who has spent four months, performing prayers in the Masjid before Jumuah prayers when it was Makruh time. The person is a hardcore Hanafi. This is just one example of not knowing the basic simple Fiqh.

The root problem is that Jamat brothers have taken Tabligh effort to be complete Deen and they are so into it that they don't learn anything else. Whatever little they learn from Tabligh, they think that's enough for them and that's why they never progress in their knowledge. The effort has been going on for 80 years, and the same problem is still there so they should come up with a solution to the problem because people think it's more important to go in 40 days jamat than it is to take Tajweed classes or basic fiqh classes.

That's why I've come to this conclusion that a person's full rectification can not be done through the effort of Tabligh. Yes, the Shalwar Kamees will come on and yes, the outward Islamic look will be there and a person will start performing his prayers. But other than that, the spiritual sicknesses can not be cured through Tabligh.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 05:22 PM
:lol: @ toronto shareef :lol:

why don't deobandi ulema just abolish it and encourage seeking sacred knowledge including tasawwuf? (yes i am naive :cheesygri )
Well-done Mawlana Eteacher for encouraging this. Jazakallah, I hope you are satisfied with yourself. May Allah bless you and reward you for your troubles.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 05:36 PM
:lol: @ toronto shareef :lol:

why don't deobandi ulema just abolish it and encourage seeking sacred knowledge including tasawwuf? (yes i am naive :cheesygri )


Well-done Mawlana Eteacher for encouraging this. Jazakallah, I hope you are satisfied with yourself. May Allah bless you and reward you for your troubles.

So far, the scholars have been sympathetic towards the Tabligh effort and have generally refrained from criticizing them publicly. But if things continue as they are, you can expect the scholars to start speaking out publicly. True scholars are those who are not biased towards their own group or their own affiliations. If things need to be rectified, then they will speak out for the greater benefit.

I know many scholars who have shown their dislike for the Tabligh effort but have never gone public with it for the reasons I have mentioned previously. Not only that, one Mufti recently told me that many graduates of Darul Uloom Deoband who go onto become Muftis passionately dislike Tableegh. They criticize it with strong harsh words and they hate it with their teeth and bone....(wait..does that make sense? : ). Many people are waiting for Darul Uloom Deoband to start criticizing Tableegh openly, and as soon as they start, I bet you that so many Masjids will prohibit Jamats from staying over in their Masjids just as Tableegh people prevent other groups from holding their programs in Tableegh Masjids/Markazas.

When I see this tide and this wind of hatred blowing towards Tableegh, I can't bear to hear it....hence this is my little effort towards rectification.....I care so I criticize....

So yeah...things are changing.....

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 05:44 PM
So far, the scholars have been sympathetic towards the Tabligh effort and have generally refrained from criticizing them publicly. But if things continue as they are, you can expect the scholars to start speaking out publicly. True scholars are those who are not biased towards their own group or their own affiliations. If things need to be rectified, then they will speak out for the greater benefit.

I know many scholars who have shown their dislike for the Tabligh effort but have never gone public with it for the reasons I have mentioned previously. Not only that, one Mufti recently told me that many graduates of Darul Uloom Deoband who go onto become Muftis passionately dislike Tableegh. They criticize it with strong harsh words and they hate it with their teeth and bone....(wait..does that make sense? : ). Many people are waiting for Darul Uloom Deoband to start criticizing Tableegh openly, and as soon as they start, I bet you that so many Masjids will prohibit Jamats from staying over in their Masjids just as Tableegh people prevent other groups from holding their programs in Tableegh Masjids/Markazas.

When I see this tide and this wind of hatred blowing towards Tableegh, I can't bear to hear it....hence this is my little effort towards rectification.....I care so I criticize....

So yeah...things are changing.....
Mawlana I know many ulama who have reservations about some of the habits of misguided TJ workers, but they don't stoop so low to come on SF and criticise and give oppurtunity to other "isms" that wish to portray the TJ/Deobandis in a bad light. Mawlana, it's surprising and shocking that you continue to justify your foolishness.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 05:48 PM
Mawlana I know many ulama who have reservations about some of the habits of misguided TJ workers, but they don't stoop so low to come on SF and criticise and give oppurtunity to other "isms" that wish to portray the TJ/Deobandis in a bad light. Mawlana, it's surprising and shocking that you continue to justify your foolishness.

Jazakumullah for those kind words.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 05:49 PM
Mawlana I know many ulama who have reservations about some of the habits of misguided TJ workers, but they don't stoop so low to come on SF and criticise and give oppurtunity to other "isms" that wish to portray the TJ/Deobandis in a bad light. Mawlana, it's surprising and shocking that you continue to justify your foolishness.
Further to this Mawlana, your behavior on this thread can be likened to a Muslim visiting a forum for all religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity et al) and criticising continuously certain habits of Muslims. What is the sense in that. Mawlana, we wish to see things happening in a different way, but there is a protocol we must follow. I would also like to say that the people behind SF need to reevaluate what is happening here. The burden of what Mawlana Eteacher has been pursuing is on their shoulders as well and they will all be taken to task for this on the day of judgement.

Nothing is impossible!

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 05:55 PM
Further to this Mawlana, your behavior on this thread can be likened to a Muslim visiting a forum for all religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity et al) and criticising continuously certain habits of Muslims. What is the sense in that. Mawlana, we wish to see things happening in a different way, but there is a protocol we must follow. I would also like to say that the people behind SF need to reevaluate what is happening here. The burden of what Mawlana Eteacher has been pursuing is on their shoulders as well and they will all be taken to task for this on the day of judgement.

So Tableegh people are allowed to criticize and belittle other efforts publicly but no one criticize Tableegh publicly? Is that fair? I don't think so.

Tableegh brothers have criticized every single group there is out there and when even Imams of Markazas have tried to rectify them, they have been fired from their Imamat posts. I know of three different Markazas where Imams were fired because they tried to correct mistakes of Tabligh brothers. That's why many scholars don't want to be Imams of Masjids which are run by Tableegh brothers. They can't take criticism but at the same time they dish it out every week towards all others.

Once Mufti Rafi Sahib delivered a speech at Dewsbury Markaz and many Jahil Tableegh brothers started criticizing it including the England Shura members! It left me shocked that how can these people have the nerve to criticize Mufti Rafi?

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 05:55 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Taken to task for what?

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 05:58 PM
Mawlana, you don't need me to tell you that two wrongs don't make a right. Look at the bigger picture. I totally agree there are issues, but what I'm saying is, this isn't the place. Please, please, please wake up. In the least refer this issue to someone like Hadhrat Shaykh al-Hadith Mawlana Yusuf Darwan Saheb!!!!

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 06:02 PM
Mawlana I know many ulama who have reservations about some of the habits of misguided TJ workers, but they don't stoop so low to come on SF and criticise and give oppurtunity to other "isms" that wish to portray the TJ/Deobandis in a bad light. Mawlana, it's surprising and shocking that you continue to justify your foolishness.

It seems to me that you are more worried about TJ'ism and Deobandism than the rectification of many major mistakes of Tabligh workers. You are more worried about the perception of 'other isms' than the perception of Allah towards Tabligh brothers? I think we need to set our priorities straight! It's better that we are criticized by the 'other isms' and rectified than to be famous but full of sins when we leave this world.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 06:11 PM
It seems to me that you are more worried about TJ'ism and Deobandism than the rectification of many major mistakes of Tabligh workers. You are more worried about the perception of 'other isms' than the perception of Allah towards Tabligh brothers? I think we need to set our priorities straight! It's better that we are criticized by the 'other isms' and rectified than to be famous but full of sins when we leave this world.
What have you achieved here Mawlana Eteacher Saheb? How many TJs have you rectified?

On the other hand, how many people have you pushed away from the work?

Mawlana, you may be Alhamdulillah sincere in your approach, it may be your love for the work that drives you to say or do what you're doing, but ultimately, your love is blind and disastorous. Individuals are using your comments to justify their own perverted and insincere attitude towards TJ.

I again call on the brothers that moderate SF, and the people behind this forum, that the way of Mawlana Eteacher on this thread is not achieving anything positive.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 06:14 PM
Further to this Mawlana, your behavior on this thread can be likened to a Muslim visiting a forum for all religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity et al) and criticising continuously certain habits of Muslims. What is the sense in that.


I don't agree with your analogy...unless you consider all those who are not involved with Tableegh as non-Muslims or all groups other than Tableegh as un-Islamic?

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 06:15 PM
I don't agree with your analogy...unless you consider all those who are not involved with Tableegh as non-Muslims or all groups other than Tableegh as un-Islamic?
I think it's obvious I don't believe that!

iqadeer
21-08-2007, 06:18 PM
It seems to me that you are more worried about TJ'ism and Deobandism than the rectification of many major mistakes of Tabligh workers. You are more worried about the perception of 'other isms' than the perception of Allah towards Tabligh brothers? I think we need to set our priorities straight! It's better that we are criticized by the 'other isms' and rectified than to be famous but full of sins when we leave this world.

:salam:

Maulana Nazim,

With all due respect, openly bashing the effort and implying that its insufficient for a person's islah will ultimately sow seeds of doubt in new and unrelated brothers. In our zeal to correct the many mistakes that we all know about our brothers, are we to discount and deny the innumerable benefits and blessings multitudes have attained through this mubarak effort? I fully agree with brother Shamli that notwithstanding the validity of your criticism, the sensitivity of this issue requires privacy more than anything. There is no wisdom in so openly laying out these issues that were it not for you to reveal them, many here wouldn't have known about their existence! Lastly, I appeal to your sense of obligation to one's heritage, since I know you belong to the very same tradition, to stop here and reflect on what good is this crusade really going to achieve in the long run?

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 06:18 PM
On the other hand, how many people have you pushed away from the work?


Don't we usually hear in Tabligh that, "Allah hee say hota hay?" That only Allah does?

Hmmmm....so if I pushed someone away from the work then that means that they will fall into sin and they are bad Muslims because they are not involved in Tabligh? So if someone turns away from Tabligh, they are doing something wrong Islamically? We need to get off our high horse of Tabligh and realize that their is nothing wrong if you don't do Tableegh work with Tableegh people.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 06:22 PM
:salam:

Maulana Nazim,

With all due respect, openly bashing the effort and implying that its insufficient for a person's islah will ultimately sow seeds of doubt in new and unrelated brothers. In our zeal to correct the many mistakes that we all know about our brothers, are we to discount and deny the innumerable benefits and blessings multitudes have attained through this mubarak effort? I fully agree with brother Shamli that notwithstanding the validity of your criticism, the sensitivity of this issue requires privacy more than anything. There is no wisdom in so openly laying out these issues that were it not for you to reveal them, many here wouldn't have known about their existence! Lastly, I appeal to your sense of obligation to one's heritage, since I know you belong to the very same tradition, to stop here and reflect on what good is this crusade really going to achieve in the long run?

That comment about being insufficient was my personal opinion.

About your comment about sowing the seeds of doubt in the Tableegh effort...please refer to my previous comment...I guess all Tableegh people who don't have a deep understanding of Tableegh think that there is something wrong with a Muslim if he is not involved with Tableegh.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 06:23 PM
Don't we usually hear in Tabligh that, "Allah hee say hota hay?" That only Allah does?

Hmmmm....so if I pushed someone away from the work then that means that they will fall into sin and they are bad Muslims because they are not involved in Tabligh? So if someone turns away from Tabligh, they are doing something wrong Islamically? We need to get off our high horse of Tabligh and realize that their is nothing wrong if you don't do Tableegh work with Tableegh people.
Mawlana, that's your explanation. Not what I meant. And I'm sure an intelligent young Mawlana like you, know exactly what I mean. Please refrain from twisting my words - jazakallah.

"We need to get off our high horse of Tabligh and realize that their is nothing wrong if you don't do Tableegh work with Tableegh people."
I personally don't actively go out in TJ, since 1997, I have only been out once for two day jamat. Mawlana, I think we should come of our high horse and come to realise that not all people who are against your conduct on this thread are active TJ workers!!!

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Mawlana, that's your explanation. Not what I meant. And I'm sure an intelligent young Mawlana like you, know exactly what I mean. Please refrain from twisting my words - jazakallah.

"We need to get off our high horse of Tabligh and realize that their is nothing wrong if you don't do Tableegh work with Tableegh people."
I personally don't actively go out in TJ, since 1997, I have only been out once for two day jamat. Mawlana, I think we should come of our high horse and come to realise that not all people who are against your conduct on this thread are active TJ workers!!!

Love is blinding....

Ok...I have to go....But before I do....I don't agree with your explanations about your previous comments because many Tabligh people are inflicted with those same thoughts towards non-Tabligh people.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 06:32 PM
Love is blinding....

Ok...I have to go....But before I do....I don't agree with your explanations about your previous comments because many Tabligh people are inflicted with those same thoughts towards non-Tabligh people.
That's your choice Mawlana Saheb. I find it strange you dance on pinheads in debating with me. Wake up and see the error of your ways.

Shamli 1857
21-08-2007, 06:33 PM
Some food for thought Mawlana Nazim Saheb,
What would your beloved teacher - Hadhrat Mawlana Yusuf Darwan Saheb - say if he read this thread? What would the likes of the respected and aged wali of Allah, Hadhrat Hafiz Patel Saheb (khalifa of Hadhrat Mawlana Talha Kandalawi Saheb, Hadhrat Mawlana Yusuf Motala Saheb and Hadhrat Mawlana Abdul Hafiz Makki Saheb) say if he read your posts and understood the nature of Sunni Forum. Mawlana, I don't expect you to answer this and please don't. However, I hope by mentioning the names of these illustrious individuals, your eyes will open and you see the error of your ways.

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 08:17 PM
I'm rethinking my stance of going public on this issue because of what Br. Soofi Saheb wrote to me.

I'm thinking of taking a poll on this issue on SF. I'll leave it to the SF community to decide if I should continue discussing my views or not on Tabligh.

Ahmed
21-08-2007, 08:26 PM
Some food for thought Mawlana Nazim Saheb,
What would your beloved teacher - Hadhrat Mawlana Yusuf Darwan Saheb - say if he read this thread? What would the likes of the respected and aged wali of Allah, Hadhrat Hafiz Patel Saheb (khalifa of Hadhrat Mawlana Talha Kandalawi Saheb, Hadhrat Mawlana Yusuf Motala Saheb and Hadhrat Mawlana Abdul Hafiz Makki Saheb) say if he read your posts and understood the nature of Sunni Forum. Mawlana, I don't expect you to answer this and please don't. However, I hope by mentioning the names of these illustrious individuals, your eyes will open and you see the error of your ways.


molana yusuf..my old neighbour:D

molana imtyaz..round the corner

hafesaabs sons ..molana saeed etc....old pals

i think ill go ask them as to what may be the cause of molana nazims ire:cheesygri


to be honest i agree with molana nazims concerns,BUT not to the point of overkill;)

eTeacher
21-08-2007, 08:54 PM
molana yusuf..my old neighbour:D


Br. Ahmed,

Maulana Yusuf Darwan is my favorite teacher.

Once we were in the school library and a non-Alim was delivering a lecture in the Markaz which was being broadcast over the speaker system. So the speaker got stuck on a Quranic verse in his speech and eventually said it wrong. (Even though the scholars of Tabligh have told them to not quote Quranic verses in Arabic, but Allah knows best for what reason, they still love to quote Quranic verses in Arabic and mess up on it. Mannay ka jazba naheen hain :) ) So Maulana Yusuf said it out loudly in a way that I would hear it that, "There is no need to say the verse in Arabic. It's against the regulations of Tableegh".

oh well....I think I'll tone down on my criticism....

Ahmed
21-08-2007, 08:58 PM
molana saab..i could do with pm ing you

and molana jallaad and molana kadia send their salaams:)

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 09:22 PM
oh well....I think I'll tone down on my criticism....

hmmm :rolleyes: 53 pages later, perhaps too little, too late?

you mean "tabligh people", right? ;)

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 09:30 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Just a few words I say these more as a reminder to myself.


Criticism Is like the bitter juice of a Lemon, best to add some Honey to sweeten the bitterness.

Otherwise the bitterness leaves a bad after taste, the Criticism instead of being constructive becomes destructive. People get offended and we fail to achieve any positive outcome from it..................only the bitterness remains.

So when criticising we must always remember to administer the Honey.



I think the words of Maulana Masood Azhar which I posted here, were written with great wisdom and Maulana sahib raised his concerns in a non harsh manner.
He Pointed out the great benefit that the Tabligh movement has given to the Ummah and also subtly pointed out that certain problems had crept into Tabligh, that were not present in the Time Of Maulana ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (ra).

He called the section dangers to Tabligh, pointing out these issues threatened the movement..........He did his best to point out the movement was not a threat...The problems that had arisen were a threat to the Tabligh Jamaat.


Only person who objected to the words of Maulana sahib was a Salaafi brother.

Also when criticising we must remember to also provide at least a solution as to how these problems can be rectified. Useless to criticise if no solution is forth coming.


So Brothers let us always remember to administer the honey...whther we are addressing our friends our relatives, strangers or even an entire organisation.

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 09:34 PM
ABSOLUTELY!!

You know I was listening to one of Hadhrat Maulana Sa'ad's bayaan (one of the Elders of Nizamuddin), and he was really taking point with many things about those involved in Tabligh! And Masha-Allah, I found myself nodding and affirming what he said, and his solution was also noted.

This is real rectification. And these are our Blessed Akaabireen. May Allah give us Tawfique to make 'Amal.




As Salaam Alaykum.

Just a few words I say these more as a reminder to myself.


Criticism Is like the bitter juice of a Lemon, best to add some Honey to sweeten the bitterness.

Otherwise the bitterness leaves a bad after taste, the Criticism instead of being constructive becomes destructive. People get offended and we fail to achieve any positive outcome from it..................only the bitterness remains.

So when criticising we must always remember to administer the Honey.



I think the words of Maulana Masood Azhar which I posted here, were written with great wisdom and Maulana sahib raised his concerns in a non harsh manner.
He Pointed out the great benefit that the Tabligh movement has given to the Ummah and also subtly pointed out that certain problems had crept into Tabligh, that were not present in the Time Of Maulana ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (ra).

Only person who objected to the words of Maulana sahib was a Salaafi brother.

Also when criticising we must remember to also provide at least a solution as to how these problems can be rectified. Useless to criticise if no solution is forth coming.

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 09:58 PM
Salaam's

Being a Non-Tablighi I have had to do my own research into the group and I think all Brothers should purchase the Biography of Maulana Yusuf (Ra)....some great wisdom in the chapter called "Advises of Hadrat Ji." Every Tablighi should read that chapter brilliant guidance there.

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 10:24 PM
Brother Julaybib,

I have found your posts especially educative, and sincere. May Allah increase you in beneficial knowledge.



Salaam's
Being a Non-Tablighi I have had to do my own research into the group and I think all Brothers should purchase the Biography of Maulana Yusuf (Ra)....some great wisdom in the chapter called "Advises of Hadrat Ji." Every Tablighi should read that chapter brilliant guidance there.

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 10:27 PM
Al Majalisu Bil Amaanah Abu Dawud

Just wondering whether Hazrat Imaam Sb, Maulana Yusuf Sb D.B. would have wanted you to relate this little story on a public forum.




Br. Ahmed,

Maulana Yusuf Darwan is my favorite teacher.

Once we were in the school library and a non-Alim was delivering a lecture in the Markaz which was being broadcast over the speaker system. So the speaker got stuck on a Quranic verse in his speech and eventually said it wrong. (Even though the scholars of Tabligh have told them to not quote Quranic verses in Arabic, but Allah knows best for what reason, they still love to quote Quranic verses in Arabic and mess up on it. Mannay ka jazba naheen hain :) ) So Maulana Yusuf said it out loudly in a way that I would hear it that, "There is no need to say the verse in Arabic. It's against the regulations of Tableegh".

oh well....I think I'll tone down on my criticism....

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 10:31 PM
Salaam's

Ameen to your Dua brother and I will Insha'Allah post some comments of Maulana
Yusuf (Ra) on Taqwa when I have time on this thread....Insha'Allah I think everyone of us will benefit from those wise comments........extremely good advice Alhamdulillah for those involved in Dawah.

ENIGMA
21-08-2007, 10:57 PM
Woah, I turn my back for 2 seconds and the thread goes all crazy again. This thread has been an interesting read. Wallah, wallah, the quotes that brother Julaybib posted from Hadhrat, wallah, I sensed the sincerity which hadhrat wrote.

Sorry maulana nazim,but your harsh tome all throughout this thread has left the bitter taste. I have read this whole thread,read the criticisms, answered them the best i could.

I have said this before, but, the way the criticism's have been generalised as to make it seem all are bad and maybe just afew are good was, incorrect. And maulana nazim, actively telling people to seek another avenue for their islaah and effectively leave the effort was very very unfair.

The criticisms went from slating the brothers in the effort to the actual effort itself. Maulana nazim knows exactly why there are no fiqh/tajweed classes in the markaz. He is very very knowledgable about the effort. He knows the usools and more importantly why they are there, yet kept on bringing up the same things over and over again.

Maulana nazim, I was never against you or anyone criticising the effort. But the way you criticised just looked like it was all planned and it had built up inside you.

Maulana,do you know personally maulana uthman kazi? Are you in contact with him?

I will, if I get a chance, have a word with hadhrat hafiz patel saabs khadims,or maybe someone close to him and just breifly mention the topic of this thread and maulana nazim's concerns. No promises though. Hafiz saab comes to the USA alot so maybe next time, he can meet maulana nazim and maulana can put his veiws forward to hadhrat hafiz saab in person. Or maybe,if maulana nazim can send me an email with his concerns and criticims, i can indeed pass them on to hafiz saab.

up to you maulana nazim.Let me know please.

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 11:17 PM
Salaam's

Here is a reminder brother Enigma. read the below.

Also I will be posting the comments of Hadrat Yusuf (Ra) on the "start with the self "thread frankly this thread has turned quite ugly.




http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23911

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 11:26 PM
Or maybe,if maulana nazim can send me an email with his concerns and criticims, i can indeed pass them on to hafiz saab.

up to you maulana nazim.Let me know please.

I think this thread has as much detail as one needs. :rolleyes:

ENIGMA
21-08-2007, 11:31 PM
Yes but I would like maulana nazim to put his words down in a constructive way which i can pass on to hafiz saab.

So the conclusion is that maulana nazim has lost faith with the effort and believes that islaah cannot be done throught this effort of a person? Would that be a correct assesment maulana?

Peace Now
21-08-2007, 11:38 PM
I can't wait to bask in the talks of our revered, sincere Akaabireen this weekend. I want that through this Suhbat, and having an open heart, Allah makes our Islaah.

The Akaabireen have compassion, love and a fervent desire for us all to succeed. May Allah give them long lives, and May Allah cause us to benefit from them further.
“…And withhold yourself (in the company) of those who remember their Lord, morning and evening desiring His Sublime Being…” (Surah Kahf: 28)

ENIGMA
21-08-2007, 11:41 PM
Im gonna ask a few alims tomorrow a few blunt and direct questions.

Looking forward to this weekend too. All I can say is that the elders know of the issues and are trying their best to get this through to the people involved in the effort. It is up to the individuals to heed the message. Its like when a person is bayt to a shaykh. If the mureed dosent heed the advice and do the amals prescribed, he wont benefit.

Julaybib
21-08-2007, 11:43 PM
Salaam's

Above link I posted went to the wrong post so here it is to everyone.

One day while Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) was taking a class, a man who bore him some grudge started saying improper things about him. He paid no intention to the man and carried on with his teaching. He also told his pupils to pay no heed to this man.

After class was over, he went out, the man followed him and carried on abusing him. The people of the city observed this strange sight the Imam of the time is walking with humility infront, whilst he is being followed by someone who is abusing him with the most vile of language.

Upon reaching his house Imam Abu Hanifa (Ra) said: " Brother, we are now at the doorstep of my house if you have anything more to say please say it for I shall go into my house and you may not get another opportunity."



So Brothers In Tabligh was this not the Methodology established by Maulana Ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (Ra)........Is this not exactly what Maulana Masood Azhar (Db) was talking about.


So why the sudden vengeful attitude towards Maulana Nazim (db) I ask, regardless as to how the criticism was delivered it is still valid. There are many problems that need to be addressed.

Especially Tablighis should respond to criticism in a positive manner, and certainly everyone who does Dawah should behave in a gentle manner, when criticised that was the Methodology of the elders of Tabligh was it not.

ENIGMA
21-08-2007, 11:53 PM
Who has a vengeful attitude? Are we not allowed to answer maulana nazim's criticism? So we just say nothing when someone posts that 95% or even 99% of tabligh brothers do not know tajweed?

We say nothing when someone posts that brothers do not know basic fiqh?

We do not answer WHY not everyone and anyone can do a program in the marqaz or why they dont have fiqh tajweed classes.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 12:02 AM
molana nazims dad is ameer of canada too
,they should have a good chat,:D

and he prayed in dewsbury markaz

i know many of his former classmates

today we talked about him..

i have to admit i agree with all his points as i have seen them all and more

im sure its constructive criticism:cheesygri

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 12:02 AM
Salaam's

Sure you have a right to respond to criticisms Brother Enigma......The question I wish to ask is how does one respond to criticism and sometimes abuse when out on the streets doing Dawah.

How do you react in those situations...............

Peace Now
22-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Does anyone know whether Hadhrat Haafiz Sb D.B. will be in Dewsbury this weekend? I heard he might not be back for this weekend.
I cant imagine that Hadhrat Haafiz Sb, would not be here for the gathering.

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 02:18 AM
Salaam's

The following is an admonishment directly at myself and as a reminder for others.

So is it not the case that when we are praised for qualities we do not have we are pleased and feel proud and flattered at the Praise. even though we know it is not true.

Yet when we are criticised for faults that do exist within us we get easily offended......are we not deluded by our own egos.



"IF A PERSON HAS TEN HABITS OF WHICH NINE ARE GOOD AND ONE IS BAD,THAT BAD ONE WILL DESTROY THE GOOD ONES."

HADRAT UMAR AL FAROOQ (RA).

java11
22-08-2007, 04:59 AM
Does anyone know whether Hadhrat Haafiz Sb D.B. will be in Dewsbury this weekend? I heard he might not be back for this weekend.
I cant imagine that Hadhrat Haafiz Sb, would not be here for the gathering.

Hafiz patel is going to be in Barbados next monday :insh: on his way to the Ijtimah that is going to be held in Trinidad on from the 31st .

mospike
22-08-2007, 08:04 AM
I am with Moulana Nazeem 100% on all the issues raised.

Brother ENIGMA is fortunate that he has the guidance of an Ameer who has foresight and is able to guide his Sathees towards the correct adaab that a Da'ee should have.

I share Moualana Nazeems sentiments because like him I have been involved in this blessed work for many years and most of it has been spent in communities that have Major issues like Drugs, Alcohol, Lack of Islamic education………

Just to put all of your'll that keep THREATENING to RAT our Hazrat E-teacher out to his Teachers and Colleges, Please check your intention before doing that…..

Now I shall provide a reall case scenario of what goes on in my community. Please note that all the names being used are not those of the actual Brothers that I am referring to.

Brother Marwaan

Marwaan spends for months every year and has been in the effort since the day he became Muslim. I mean literally 2 days after accepting this beautiful deen he went for his first 3 days. 13 years on and brother Marwaan is known to be THEE leading TJ in my area and has spend the most time in the path of Allah. However Brother Marwaan does not know how to read Quraan Fluently accept for the last 10 Surahs. Brother Marwaan does not attend the Lectures of any of the other Non active TJ ulama in my area. When I requested brother Marwaan to please assist us with a youth evening or soccer tourni brother Marwaan refused and said that Tabligh is the only way to get them right. Brother Marwaan forgot that the elders said to only take youngsters from the age of 15 out in jamaat. So what about from 0 to 15 years????
Brother Marwaan always says to me that Tablilgh is THEE only way.
Brother Marwaan never tackles the DRUG ADDICT tj's in my area head on, rather he is too happy to request them to spend 40-day 4-month every year which they do, but when they get home they go back to old habbits………

Brother Fareed

Brother Fareed keeps harping on the fact that these brothers must get married and they should go 4 months. I said Brother Fareed these brothers need to go to rehab or else they will take their evils into their marriages and then spoil the womens life up. No BROTHER mospike said Fareed 'Marriage then Masturat' you'll see their lives will change.

Brother Khalid

He hates it when I try to assist him with his Salaat. He spend four months this year yet he salaat is totally wrong. I asked him, Did you not do Muzakira on Salaat? No is the reply. However he was too happy to show me a video that he took from his mobile phone when his Jamaat went for Ziyara to the RED FORT in India.

Brother Yaseen

I gladly gave them my kitchen utensils to use for the Students Jamaat last month. They returned it dirty and many things were damaged. I tried to explain to him the true duties of the Ameer and that what he should have done. But No I cant say that, I havent spent 4 months,,,, but he has

Brothers in my area go in jamaat but never change. Brothers in my area don’t want to try any other avenue for Islaah. 3-days have become a Sleeping, Eating and Laughing affair.

Tabligh brothers in my locality don’t want to only speak on 6 points. They end up distorting the Waqia's from the Quraan and Hadith.
On Wednesday nighst is Madressa only 3 come. On Thursday nights is Gusht 15 come.

treo-guy
22-08-2007, 08:35 AM
Now I shall provide a reall case scenario of what goes on in my community. Please note that all the names being used are not those of the actual Brothers that I am referring to.



Salam brother mospike,

That is just your community. The communities that I have been involved in have been very very different.

If I give my car to a brother for khurooj, I get it back vacuumed and the tank full!

Among my friends in tabligh are those who are Hafiz of quran + Having an engineering degree + remarkably knowledgable about contemporary fiqh issues (this combination seems to be catching on in India)!

We have 3 major madressahs (one of them is for females) in our city and all three have been started by the blessed effort of tabligh. They were started by tabligh brothers. Also a big portion of students in these madressahs are children of tablighis!

So my point is, brother mospike, the situation with tabligh is pretty good in other communities.

Thanks.

ENIGMA
22-08-2007, 09:39 AM
First of all, my sincere apologies to anyone I have offended. Its not about ratting out maulana nazim. I am merely requesting that these points should be addressed and should be done through the elders. Thats why I said if maulana nazim can send me an email, i will gladly pass it on.

Like Brother Treo-guy, my community is very different to what brother Mospike mentioned.

One thing I must emntion from maulana nazims post with regards to Darul Uloom Deoband them having concerns about the effort and how if they speak out then maybe mosques might start banning jamaats. Let me tell you, Ive spent time in localities where the permission for jamaats to stay was not there. Know what we did? We either gathered at a local brothers house with his blessing and on many occasions have actually rented out a house for a few days at a time from our own money.

Ive been in jamaat where permission to do amals was not given so we did taleem in the park under a tree.

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 10:07 AM
I am with Moulana Nazeem 100% on all the issues raised.

Just to put all of your'll that keep THREATENING to RAT our Hazrat E-teacher out to his Teachers and Colleges, Please check your intention before doing that..

Brother Mospike

More generalisations. No merit in replying to these.

May I ask why you are describing the alerting of issues raised by Maulana Nazim on a PUBLIC forum, and on issues which you deem him to be "100%" on all issues, as "THREATENING to RAT"?

Would the teachers and colleagues take it bad? Is that what you are thinking? Should we be thinking WHY they might take it badly or be hurt by the comments? Or shall we indulge in more generalisations?

This thread has been so biased.

mospike
22-08-2007, 11:09 AM
Me mentioning these examples is not a generalisation , nowhere have i or Maulana stated that all Tablighi's are like this.

However it might be a generalisation from your point of view, But me being a active member i have seen many of these traits in about 40% of the Tabligh brothers i have encounted throughout South Africa, and from those visiting us from India/Pak.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 12:04 PM
I am with Moulana Nazeem 100% on all the issues raised.

Brother ENIGMA is fortunate that he has the guidance of an Ameer who has foresight and is able to guide his Sathees towards the correct adaab that a Da'ee should have.

I share Moualana Nazeems sentiments because like him I have been involved in this blessed work for many years and most of it has been spent in communities that have Major issues like Drugs, Alcohol, Lack of Islamic education

Just to put all of your'll that keep THREATENING to RAT our Hazrat E-teacher out to his Teachers and Colleges, Please check your intention before doing that..

Now I shall provide a reall case scenario of what goes on in my community. Please note that all the names being used are not those of the actual Brothers that I am referring to.

Brother Marwaan

Marwaan spends for months every year and has been in the effort since the day he became Muslim. I mean literally 2 days after accepting this beautiful deen he went for his first 3 days. 13 years on and brother Marwaan is known to be THEE leading TJ in my area and has spend the most time in the path of Allah. However Brother Marwaan does not know how to read Quraan Fluently accept for the last 10 Surahs. Brother Marwaan does not attend the Lectures of any of the other Non active TJ ulama in my area. When I requested brother Marwaan to please assist us with a youth evening or soccer tourni brother Marwaan refused and said that Tabligh is the only way to get them right. Brother Marwaan forgot that the elders said to only take youngsters from the age of 15 out in jamaat. So what about from 0 to 15 years????
Brother Marwaan always says to me that Tablilgh is THEE only way.
Brother Marwaan never tackles the DRUG ADDICT tj's in my area head on, rather he is too happy to request them to spend 40-day 4-month every year which they do, but when they get home they go back to old habbits

Brother Fareed

Brother Fareed keeps harping on the fact that these brothers must get married and they should go 4 months. I said Brother Fareed these brothers need to go to rehab or else they will take their evils into their marriages and then spoil the womens life up. No BROTHER mospike said Fareed 'Marriage then Masturat' you'll see their lives will change.

Brother Khalid

He hates it when I try to assist him with his Salaat. He spend four months this year yet he salaat is totally wrong. I asked him, Did you not do Muzakira on Salaat? No is the reply. However he was too happy to show me a video that he took from his mobile phone when his Jamaat went for Ziyara to the RED FORT in India.

Brother Yaseen

I gladly gave them my kitchen utensils to use for the Students Jamaat last month. They returned it dirty and many things were damaged. I tried to explain to him the true duties of the Ameer and that what he should have done. But No I cant say that, I havent spent 4 months,,,, but he has

Brothers in my area go in jamaat but never change. Brothers in my area dont want to try any other avenue for Islaah. 3-days have become a Sleeping, Eating and Laughing affair.

Tabligh brothers in my locality dont want to only speak on 6 points. They end up distorting the Waqia's from the Quraan and Hadith.
On Wednesday nighst is Madressa only 3 come. On Thursday nights is Gusht 15 come.

THERES drug dealing/ taking and muslims taking alcohol behind dewsbury markaz

do they do ghasht there?

guess

and very valid points again mospike

i know some tablighis,young..who cant give dawah on street level or without parrot fashion..even after years and 4 months

because the programming has been rigid;)

mospike
22-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Tabligh must become all encompassing for it to succeed in the modern world with it's fitna.

Drug dealing and Alcohol abuse cases need professional help

Husbands should be taught that when they go home after Jamaat that they should wisely get the women folk to come close to deen, they shoudnt go home and throw out the TV and then after a few days go and take it our of the trash can

Tabligh brothers have to take out time from their busy schedules to do Deen Intensive learning

eTeacher
22-08-2007, 01:20 PM
Br. Shamli 1857,

Br. Soofi Saheb requested for it to be removed. :)

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 05:37 PM
Me mentioning these examples is not a generalisation , nowhere have i or Maulana stated that all Tablighi's are like this.

However it might be a generalisation from your point of view, But me being a active member i have seen many of these traits in about 40% of the Tabligh brothers i have encounted throughout South Africa, and from those visiting us from India/Pak.

40%? 40 in every 100 people? How did you come to these figures? I would really be interested to know this. The percentages on this thread are fantastic!

br Ahmad said "THERES drug dealing/ taking and muslims taking alcohol behind dewsbury markaz"

Sigh! talk about scaremongering.

Ahmad: i know some tablighis,young..who cant give dawah on street level or without parrot fashion..even after years and 4 months

Very, very condescending.

I didnt expect the latter and more important part of my comment to be addressed. Perhaps you may, but I doubt it.

Sincere brothers! Let us assume for 1 minute, lthat *ALL* the negative points on this thread are not super hype and taken out of proportion.
How is posting it on a forum going to sort it out?
Surely, something on grassroots level needs to be sorted and from higher up, not just posting them on a forum :p Surely! So, then when a real solution is forwarded, then the RATTING accusation is levelled.

what gives? Please explain without more condescending speak.

Give Glad Tidings, and do not alienate (people), create ease, and do not create hardship. Aboo Dawood

eTeacher
22-08-2007, 05:43 PM
People...I don't give a rat's tail if you want to rat....or whatever you call it.....

This is just a prolonged silence before the storm...

In need of your Duas...as always...

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 07:39 PM
40%? 40 in every 100 people? How did you come to these figures? I would really be interested to know this. The percentages on this thread are fantastic!

br Ahmad said "THERES drug dealing/ taking and muslims taking alcohol behind dewsbury markaz"

Sigh! talk about scaremongering.

Ahmad: i know some tablighis,young..who cant give dawah on street level or without parrot fashion..even after years and 4 months

Very, very condescending.

I didnt expect the latter and more important part of my comment to be addressed. Perhaps you may, but I doubt it.

Sincere brothers! Let us assume for 1 minute, lthat *ALL* the negative points on this thread are not super hype and taken out of proportion.
How is posting it on a forum going to sort it out?
Surely, something on grassroots level needs to be sorted and from higher up, not just posting them on a forum :p Surely! So, then when a real solution is forwarded, then the RATTING accusation is levelled.

what gives? Please explain without more condescending speak.

Give Glad Tidings, and do not alienate (people), create ease, and do not create hardship. Aboo Dawood

bro im an" old worker":cheesygri ..i have been observing stuff for years

i still go in jamaat...here were discussing issues maybe the reality is too much for the one who only talk about that above the skies and that under the ground:cheesygri


dawah is to humans as humans everywhere..not angels..and its done by miserable/sinners like myself

i do it as a duty not because im worthy

in fact i dont do nothing...ALLAH uses me:$ :$



I TOOK A CANADIAN JAMAAT FOR GASHT IN BRETTON STREET AND BEHIND THE MARKAZ..THEY WERE SHOCKED AT THE DRINK AND DRUGS THERE BY MUSLIMS

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 07:50 PM
i love tabligh

tablighis?..thats another matter:cheesygri

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 07:52 PM
I TOOK A CANADIAN JAMAAT FOR GASHT IN BRETTON STREET AND BEHIND THE MARKAZ..THEY WERE SHOCKED AT THE DRINK AND DRUGS THERE BY MUSLIMS

Discussing the condition of the Ummat
Hadhrat Maulana Mufti Mohammad Taqi Usmani (may Allah preserve him) said,
It is grossly inappropriate to waste time discussing the current situation the Muslim Ummah is in these days. The best thing is to turn towards Allah and ask for forgiveness and guidance in this regards.
Our pious elders have stated that if in a difficult situation a persons attention towards Allah is increased then it means that these hard times are there to atone his misgivings and elevate his status in here-after. However, if he turns away from Allah then it is feared to be a punishment. May Allah save us all from it.
Waaz 22 July 2007, Darul Uloom Karachi, after asr islahi bayan

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 07:53 PM
Salaam's

The reality is we as a community are facing many challenges.....That our elders did not encounter.

We need to focus on them and sure it has to be a community effort and not solely a responsibility of Tabligh Jamaat.

Indeed Those who are on the frontline of Dawah need to look at all these issues which are plaguing our communities Drug abuse is becoming widespread.....The repercussions will resonate in every household if these problems are not addressed.

As for Tabligh on every issue we diiscuss in the Muslim community the following excuse is provided "you are generalising".....In the meantime nothing gets done the problems only become more pronounced and become more entrenched.

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 07:56 PM
i love tabligh

tablighis?..thats another matter:cheesygri

Brother, with the greatest respect you are far too flippant. Grin away.
May Allah have Mercy on us.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 08:01 PM
everyone in dewsbury knows me..from the TOP;)

they know my views and my personality

and they know i love them and tabligh:D

cancer is destroyed once it is acknowledged its there

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 08:07 PM
Salaam's

Agreed Brother Ahmed.......But seems people are more concerned with the image of the group being tarnished.

Well if these problems continue the Image of the group will become tarnished in any case.

So why not address these problems, and come up with a proactive plan to address them..Right now?

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 08:12 PM
IN THE 4 MONTHS JOR...this weekend

the elders normally bring out all the issues

"puraanas" becoming..stagnant/proud/closed and basically losing the spirit which was in the beginning


also the roohaani bhigaar of years of dawah is also talked about

oh yes

dawah/prayers/and becoming known and respected CAN destroy the soul

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 08:19 PM
Salaam's

Clearly many years of talking about these issues at Jhors and Ijtemas.

Has not had an effect...So a new strategy has to be looked at why continue with the same failed strategy that has no impact at the grass roots?

As for those who seem more concerned with percentages 95% or 99.9 % well if the figure is only 1% on every issue that has been discussed then you should be pleased.

Because it is easy to contain a Crisis as soon as it emerges....But very difficult to eliminate problems once they become more entrenched.So lets try and contain these "limited" problems shall we or is that impossible to achieve?

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:01 PM
A New Breed Of Tablighi Is Needed..dynamic /brave And Adaptive:d

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 09:11 PM
Salaam's

What do you mean by Dynamic brave and adaptive Brother Ahmed..?

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:20 PM
Salaam's

What do you mean by Dynamic brave and adaptive Brother Ahmed..?

ONE who understands.."haal kaa amar"...doing the right thing for the moment

adapting to the situation in hand

and being brave to visit and give dawah to anyone..not just "easy targets"

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 09:23 PM
ONE who understands.."haal kaa amar"...doing the right thing for the moment

adapting to the situation in hand

and being brave to visit and give dawah to anyone..not just "easy targets"

Masha-Allah, Allah accept. alhamdulillah, a positive and proactive statement.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:24 PM
Masha-Allah, Allah accept.


jazakallah...may allah mould us and shape us for the NEW challenges ahead

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 09:30 PM
jazakallah...may allah mould us and shape us for the NEW challenges ahead

Brother, this is what we need. Not just blind criticisms, off the cuff stats, but to work to make a change. We need to affect, and influence as many as possible. We will see weaknesses, but we should not make bayaan of this, but to make sattaree, and make du'aa.

Make effort to make a change, and make dua in the dead of night. The Minhaaj of the Pious.

As Hadhrat Haafiz Sb D.B. often says:
batoh seh batoh wujood me ate he (words give rise to words
amal si amal wjuood me ate he ( actions give rise to Actions)

May Allah make it possible for all of us.

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 09:30 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Definitely a good idea....But how will these young Dynamic individuals emerge and what steps need to be taken to inculcate these qualities in individuals and unleash their potential.

I think from my understanding off What Maulana Nazim has written ......Is that the full potential of this organisation has not been utilised nor that of the individuals with in it.Everything has become stagnant.

Personally that is my opinion also this organisation has the potential to bring about a massive change in our communities.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:34 PM
Brother, this is what we need. Not just blind criticisms, off the cuff stats, but to work to make a change. We need to affect, and influence as many as possible. We will see weaknesses, but we should not make bayaan of this, but to make sattaree, and make du'aa.

Make effort to make a change, and make dua in the dead of night. The Minhaaj of the Pious.

As Hadhrat Haafiz Sb D.B. often says:
batoh seh batoh wujood me ate he (words give rise to words
amal si amal wjuood me ate he ( actions give rise to Actions)

May Allah make it possible for all of us.

BRO ..IVE SPENT LOADSA TIME WITH HAFESAAB:D

hes too silent on some issues...in public...humility perhaps

but sometimes in privacy you will not believe what he says..he lets it rip..on tablighis..believe it

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 09:35 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

Definitely a good idea....But how will these young Dynamic individuals emerge and what steps need to be taken to inculcate these qualities in individuals and unleash their potential.

I think from my understanding off What Maulana Nazim has written ......Is that the full potential of this organisation has not been utilised nor that of the individuals with in it.Everything has become stagnant.

Personally that is my opinion also this organisation has the potential to bring about a massive change in our communities.

Join the effort and work to make changes. It is easy to make suggestions, and come to conclusions from the outside. Come on in, and assist in making the Ummat come as one. Each and every person, is a cog in its success.

I personally make an effort to make individual muzakirah to improve myself and others too. And make Du'aa to Allah, to make things happen. After making effort, our attention is towards Allah.
Work to improve, not to separate.

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 09:38 PM
BRO ..IVE SPENT LOADSA TIME WITH HAFESAAB:D

hes too silent on some issues...in public...humility perhaps

but sometimes in privacy you will not believe what he says..he lets it rip..on tablighis..believe it

Shafqat of the Elders, that they "let rip"on us. We should take heed of their words. I have seen this from him many times. The sincere people are the lanterns of guidance. The tambeeh of the pious is not as it seems, it is absolute mercy, and they have the absolute RIGHT to do so. Not many of have the right to do so.

The difference is between the pious, is that they have compassion in their hearts, and they have years and years of REAL, SOLID sacrifice behind them, which most of us, especially me are very behind in.

I pray Allah makes us fortunate, and continue benefitting from the pious like Hazrat Hafiz sb.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:45 PM
It is the Mercy of the Elders, that they "let rip"on us. I have seen this from him many times. The sincere people are the lanterns of guidance. The tambeeh of the pious is not as it seems, it is absolute mercy, and they have the absolute RIGHT to do so. Not many of have the right to do so.

The difference is between the pious, is that they have compassion in their hearts, and they have years and years of REAL, SOLID sacrifice behind them, which most of us, especially me are very behind in.

I pray Allah makes us fortunate, and continue benefitting from the pious like Hazrat Hafiz sb.

COULD INCLUDE MOLANA NAZIM?
MYSELF?:cheesygri .........:$

one of the first u.k born "workers"..1984......;)



ALLAH knows best:D

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 09:47 PM
COULD INCLUDE MOLANA NAZIM?
MYSELF?:cheesygri .........:$

one of the first u.k born "workers"..1984......;)
ALLAH knows best:D

Only Allah knows who is accepted.
Like Mla sa'eed Khan sb rah said some puranas get worse as they get older int he effort like clothes
and some get better as they get older in the effort, like rice.

Abject humilty is what Allah likes. May Allah grant us sincerity, especially me.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:51 PM
Only Allah knows who is accepted.
Like Mla sa'eed Khan sb rah said some puranas get worse as they get older int he effort like clothes
and some get better as they get older in the effort, like rice.

Abject humilty is what Allah likes. May Allah grant us sincerity, especially me.

humility is on the inside

some people act humble but are full of pride

some of us just like to state facts..to a stranger..from whome there is nothing to gain terms of fame /izzat etc;)

another misunderstanding..

HADHRAT UMAR was outwardly aggressive and proud.but who could be so humble

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 09:52 PM
Salaam's

Brother Ahmed.

Unfortunately due to health issues at the moment I am limited to standing on the sidelines and making suggestions......However I am looking at the various organisations that do work in the community and which would be more suitable for the kind of contribution I would want to make.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 09:55 PM
Salaam's

Brother Ahmed.

Unfortunately due to health issues at the moment I am limited to standing on the sidelines and making suggestions......However I am looking at the various organisations that do work in the community and which would be more suitable for the kind of contribution I would want to make.

hhugs is very good.if you can help

http://www.hhugs.org.uk/


KHIDMAT..SOMETHING tablighis like to keep between themselves:rolleyes:



build bridges with as many efforts as you can

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 10:04 PM
Salaam's

Jazak'Allah for the link Brother Ahmed.

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 10:34 PM
hhugs is very good.if you can help

http://www.hhugs.org.uk/

KHIDMAT..SOMETHING tablighis like to keep between themselves:rolleyes:
build bridges with as many efforts as you can

Takes one to no one? ;)
Which masjid do you join with in dewsbury, Br Ahmad? If you dont mind me asking?

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 10:41 PM
all:cheesygri

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 10:43 PM
all:cheesygri
A floater - CONFIRMED :)

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 10:44 PM
A floater - CONFIRMED :)

free:D

and flexible:)

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 10:46 PM
free:D

and flexible:)

Allah keep you happy in this world and the akhirah.

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 10:47 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

On a more positive note I know a young brother and Alhamdulillah....He is a very positive advetisement for the Tabligh.

This Brother is not a very good talker I think if he spent 20 years with Tabligh he would still be useless at preaching in the conventional sense.

But Alhamdulillah he has a very caring personality, always showing concern for others never known him to argue with anyone or say a bad word to anyone.

He has been able to impact many people within his extended family just through utilising these principles of Khidmat and Ikraam......So I suppose Dawah comes in many forms....Different forms of Dawah suits a persons personality

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 10:52 PM
in fact..ikraam and khidmah.....(muamalaat /akhlaaq)

are the most powerful dawah

the prophets and sahabahs living amongst none muslims and sabr ..then ,justice and fairness was more powerful than spoken words

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 10:55 PM
As Salaam Alaykum.

On a more positive note I know a young brother and Alhamdulillah....He is a very positive advetisement for the Tabligh.

This Brother is not a very good talker I think if he spent 20 years with Tabligh he would still be useless at preaching in the conventional sense.

But Alhamdulillah he has a very caring personality, always showing concern for others never known him to argue with anyone or say a bad word to anyone.

He has been able to impact many people within his extended family just through utilising these principles of Khidmat and Ikraam......So I suppose Dawah comes in many forms....Different forms of Dawah suits a persons personality

Yes, Indeed Br Julaybib
In Ramadhan, in Dewsbury Markaz Haafiz Sb makes I'tikaaf with many people, and many of them are the elderly, and sick brothers. Some of them are very sick, and Hazrat Hafiz sb asks them to make du'aa for them and the Ummat. There du'as are especially accepted.

Despite Mla Ilyaas sb's sickness and illness, and feebleness, Allah used his awsaaf for the furtherance of Islam.

So the comments about brothers not being able to give da'wah are really very hurtful comments posted earlier. Some people dont know how to talk too well, but they have some other qualities which are being used to firther the Deen. Like Khidhmat for example. I know brothers who make khidhmat (not just tableegh sathees *ahem*). Most laudable.

It is nice to see the good qualities of others whther they are tableeghi or not, whether they are muslims or not, becuase it makes one feel unworthy, and helps us to appreciate the qualities of others.

recognising deficiencies in ourselves, helps us to get close to Allah.

Praise be to Allah. at the end of the day, it is acceptance, not worthiness.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 10:57 PM
Yes, Indeed Br Julaybib
In Ramadhan, in Dewsbury Markaz Haafiz Sb makes I'tikaaf with many people, and many of them are the elderly, and sick brothers. Some of them are very sick, and Hazrat Hafiz sb asks them to make du'aa for them and the Ummat. There du'as are especially accepted.

Despite Mla Ilyaas sb's sickness and illness, and feebleness, Allah used his awsaaf for the furtherance of Islam.

So the comments about brothers not being able to give da'wah are really very hurtful comments posted earlier. Some people dont know how to talk too well, but they have some other qualities which are being used to firther the Deen. Like Khidhmat for example. I know brothers who make khidhmat (not just tableegh sathees *ahem*). Most laudable.

It is nice to see the good qualities of others, becuase it makes one feel unworthy, and helps us to appreciate the qualities of brethern.
Praise be to Allah.

at the end of the day, it is acceptance, not worthiness.

many are accepted,few last

and from that few..even fewer really attain the taqwa of H.P.:)

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 10:59 PM
As salaam alaikum

As Maulana Saad said in the recent ijtemas quoting from either Maulana Ilyas(rahmatullah) or Maulana Yusuf(rahmatullah) not sure which one:

Work on improving OUR OWN relationship with Allah subhana wataala through this work and Allah will make the ISLAH of the others through us.

Many of us today are concerned more with the islah of OTHERS and forget our OWN selves which is the main purpose of this work .

May Allah guide us ALL and take the work from us .... ameen

WHEN IN JAMAAT..i constantly have to remind my "saathis"

that the self is priority no 1
the jamaat 2

the locality..3

AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND:cheesygri

Sahnun
22-08-2007, 11:00 PM
many are accepted,few last
and from that few..even fewer really attain the taqwa of H.P.:)

The acceptance of others, is our own acceptance and vice versa.
we can work to make things better, starting from the worst person - ourselves. (general comment)

Julaybib
22-08-2007, 11:01 PM
Salaam's

I agree Brother Ahmed...The reason why I was reminded of this Brother is due to the link you posted for the Volunteer organisation.

He does these things naturally if very distant relative or aquaintance is in Hospital or other problems he will drive 200 miles to visit them, most youngsters his age dont maintain ties with close relatives.

If he is going somewhere be it shopping he will phone up and ask others if they wish to come along, wont charge any for petrol etc.

If someone he knows needs help with decorating or other DIY work he will volunteer to help out.

Just by doing these things consistently...That most of us consider trivial he has managed to impact many others Alhamdulillah.

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 11:03 PM
ONCE HUZOOR S.A.W. asked in a gathering ..who had visited a sick man/been to a funeral and done some khidmah of family neighbours in one day

only hadhrat abu bakr R.A. ANSWERED....subhanallah

Ahmed
22-08-2007, 11:04 PM
The acceptance of others, is our own acceptance and vice versa.
we can work to make things better, starting from the worst person - ourselves. (general comment)

yes we should be selfish

ALL ABOUT ME,ME,ME:)

ali zahoor
23-08-2007, 12:54 AM
Salaam

Can somebody name me some tableegi jamat centres where the ulema are very open minded and dont attack the concept of mawlid and other sunni movements. My own personal experience hasnt been the best as i once took a brother from a tableegi jamat family to another mosque for jumma and after his dad found out he didnt come with me again. Another friend of mine was indirectly told he would be going to hell as tableegi jamat were in the saved sect group and he chose another organisation. That brother is high up in the ranks of tableegi jamat in Blackburn. A child once told me that his cousin died as a bidati.

If anyone can point out a center which is open minded, doesnt attack autentic sunni practices and acknowledges that their are other movements that can change peoples lifes. Please do give me some centers names in the North West of England. Recently i have been impressed with Mufti Adam viewpoints and i think we need more people like him.

Many Thanks and i hope i havent said anything that was offensive.

Julaybib
23-08-2007, 12:58 AM
As Salaam Alaykum.

No different to the attitude of Brelvis.......Mind you two wrongs do not make a right though.

ali zahoor
23-08-2007, 01:21 AM
I think there was no need in bringing them into it but i do agree with your point that many of them are like that. Try and stick to the topic though as im a little fed up of the same old b and d polemic.

Are their any centers in the northwest then?

Julaybib
23-08-2007, 01:24 AM
Salaam's

I have not got a clue...I am not Tablighi as for deobandi Brelvi polemic you cant
question attitude of one while remaining silent on the attitude of the other.

After all that is a double standard is it not.

ali zahoor
23-08-2007, 01:41 AM
The title of the thread was tableegi jamat and due to some bad experiences i was asking one or two genuine questions. Thats why the whole b and d polemic shouldnt really be brought in. Why not say its the same with many sunni movements which are filled with sectarian tendancies!

Julaybib
23-08-2007, 01:43 AM
Salaam's

I agree same problem with most Sunni groups with some being more extreme in their attitude and intolerance then others.

Well I hope one of the Tablighi Brethren can point you to a centre.

fatboy_dhaka
23-08-2007, 02:33 AM
Assalamualaikum
My ameer does so much fiqh in Jamaat sometimes I think its overkill.
But alhamdulillah ive learnt so much from him.
He knows so much people assume he is a mufti.
In my area the tablighi people love Ulama to bits.
And they dont even do Nizamuddin style tabligh.
They go absolutely crazy over them.
I mean ABSOLUTELY CRAZY.

There is so much talk here of tablighis criticizing Ulema and other groups.
Can someone please clarify what is meant by other groups: HT, Jamaat e Islami, etc?

Julaybib
23-08-2007, 02:40 AM
As Salaam Alaykum

I think what is meant is Tassuwuf and Tareeqas and Shaykhs who hold Dars on quran and Tafseer but do not participate in Tablighi Jamaat e.t.c. Of course not all Tablighis have this kind of attitudes though.

fatboy_dhaka
23-08-2007, 03:09 AM
Assalamualaikum

Ive seen Tablighi activities very closely in 2 masjids.
Brother, they NEVER EVER criticise them and love them dearly, sit for tafseer.
In fact brothers do out gusht, come back to our masjid and most of them sit for tafseer right after that.
In another masjid majority of the tablighi brothers travel to another locality for tafseer.
Actually to sum it all up, there is rapport between tablighis and ulema. Al least thats what ive seen in lots of places.

Julaybib
23-08-2007, 03:15 AM
As Salaam Alaykum.

I think Brother Dhaka You will have to read the last 20 pages of this thread to understand the whole debate.

There are many brothers who have said exactly the same thing you have stated.......That they have not personally seen any of these things.

Alhamdulillah most people have love for the Tabligh its just some are concerned about certain things they have seen or witnessed thats all.

So Brother please don't get disheartened by any of the criticisms.

mospike
23-08-2007, 07:39 AM
My 40% observation is not factual, it is MY OWN OBSERVATION...

I have heard that the most sincere efforts are taking place in Bangladesh and Srilanka at the moment.

So what do you guys suggest about the drug addicts in my jamaat. Should i approach them directly and tell them that they are spoiling the efforts and that they need to go to a rehab? or what?

treo-guy
23-08-2007, 08:08 AM
So what do you guys suggest about the drug addicts in my jamaat. Should i approach them directly and tell them that they are spoiling the efforts and that they need to go to a rehab? or what?

Salam.

To tell you the truth, I haven't seen a tablighi on drugs ever in my life (lol... it sounds funny to me). So I would have no direct answer for you dear brother.

However, your problem seems to be a local issue which the local Ulema would be most aware of. I think you are in South Africa where you can find a lot of Ulema alhamdulillah.

I think you should go to one or two (max) senior aalims in your community and talk to them about the problem. Ask them what the solution should be. Be ready to accept and obey what they tell you.

Thanks.

ENIGMA
23-08-2007, 09:05 AM
The elders linked to the effort should 100% be told. Like brother treo, dont know anyone who is invloved in the effort and takes drugs, but what you say brother is a worry. The local respected Ulema should also be told. Brother Mospike, I sincerely ask you do something as the situation you describe cannot go on.

Brother Ali zahoor, which Mfti Adam are you talking about? Brother, if people ahve said those comments then it is truly saddening. I have many friends who, I dont like using the word Brelwi, but i'll have to. We get on fine,the mawlid etc is not a problem for me. They soemtimes come to the mosque I go to and vice versa.

This is my opnion. The more one invloves with people with other efforts, the more a connection will be built. I have gone out of my way to learn about other efforts, made close connections with the ulema and have close friends in tasawwuf. The point of the efforts of deen is to revive deen. I got so happy when I so an old friend after many years, who upon enquring had got bayt to a shaykh. As my ameer saab always says, the purpose is that our islaah is done.

mospike
23-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Make dua brothers. These are my close Saathis but they have completely astray and are playing around with deen. I have become so despondant in the last 4 weeks or so. Reason being that throughout the week these guys don’t come to Salaah but on a Gusht day or Shab Kuzari and 3-days they come. And guess what the Ameer gives them Takazaas to do. Like Gusht Adaabs or the main Muzakira. Also we move around in our locality and the awaam know about them and when we meet the people these brothers are also Mutakallims some times and you can see that the brother we are meating is like 'How can this guy tell me, when he is up to no good'

How does it work at your guys musjids. Here by us the elders say every 2 weeks a new ameer must be chosen?

ENIGMA
23-08-2007, 09:51 AM
We have had the same ameer for the past 10 years. Amazing guy, middle aged but so god fearing and full of taqwa. The way he protects his gaze is amazing. Alims are shocked to see his level of knowledge.

He does our tarbiyah in an amazing way. I know before I got married, he talked to me on and off for about 2 weeks, advising me, giving me naseeha. I always do mashwera with him, even in personal matters.

The amount of love he has for his sathees is so evident as we all love him so much. He can be critical,he's not all laugh and joking.

I have alims say to me, that a particular hadith was slightly confusing them, they sat in his muzakhira and suddenly, it all clicked into place. He dresses so simple, but I honestly believe he is mustajabat dua. He has gone through so crazy halaats but his connection with Allah is amazing.

treo-guy
23-08-2007, 09:51 AM
How does it work at your guys musjids. Here by us the elders say every 2 weeks a new ameer must be chosen?

SubhanAllah, it really is a horrible situation. My guess is that the ameer of mashura probably gives them takaza in the hope that through the effort they might leave their bad habits. Because if you cut them completely off, who knows how deep they will fall.

I think that such situations should be handled by immediately involving Ulema/elders of your markaz and requesting them for advice. You should give your opinion as well since rayy is amanat. Once mashura is made, you and other concerned brothers should use all your skills and energy to followup the decisions with actions.

It goes without saying that when you do the above, you will have your reward from Allah azza wa jal no matter what the end result.

May Allah guide those brothers and all of us on this forum.

Thats all I can say.

Thanks.

ENIGMA
23-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Agreed with brother treo, that this needs to be sorted straight away but with hikma. Cutting them off might make them go completely, but this situtaion needs to be rectified.

ali zahoor
23-08-2007, 12:45 PM
The Mufti Adam i was refering to is currently based in Leicester. I think his father was a big scholer in Dar ul Loom in Bury. His viewpoints and fatwa are very open minded and not really any diffrent to a Sunni brelv Ulema in the U.K. We need more people like him in the U.K, South Africa and esp India/Pakistan. He gives a balanced opinion on Mawlid, Tawassul and Istighatata. The experience i have had with some Tableegi Jamat people has been saddning and those comments that i wrote in my last post should make brothers think that things have gone too far. I wanted information on some open minded centres in the North West so if anyone has any names then please do inform me.

I know full well what other sunni movements are like and the only organisation i have found that have said positive things about both sunni brelvi and Tableegi Jamat people are Minhaj Ul Quran scholers. They have more in common when it comes to practices with brelvies but their mentality is not so diffrent from the deobandies. In their grand Mawlid gathering in Pakistan on the 12 they invited scholers from all over the middle east and even a well know scholer from the deoband madressa attended the event and gave a speech. Now thats unity and we need more of it.

I didnt really want to go into this old polemic but just wanted information on some open minded centres in the north west of England. Does anyone know any?

ENIGMA
23-08-2007, 01:10 PM
What kind of 'open minded centres'? not too sure what you mean.

Sahnun
23-08-2007, 02:13 PM
My 40% observation is not factual, it is MY OWN OBSERVATION...

I have heard that the most sincere efforts are taking place in Bangladesh and Srilanka at the moment.

So what do you guys suggest about the drug addicts in my jamaat. Should i approach them directly and tell them that they are spoiling the efforts and that they need to go to a rehab? or what?
Very sad to hear. May Allah better the situation. I dont think it is a problem with Tabligh, but the attitude towards Deen in particular. A very laid back attitude. They need to go to rehab. Convincing them is the main problem. I will make prayer to Allah, as I am sure you all will. Allah saved us from it, but we cannot just turn our faces. At least, we should shed a tear or two to Allah to change the hearts.

But the situation doesnt appear to be too brilliant in South Africa generally, according to the Jamiat Ulama. This is from today's newsletter:

Message from the Ameer of the Jamiatul Ulama - The Desperate Situation We Find Ourselves In

Make no mistake. A people that exist within a society filled with social evils will be affected by the same evils if they do not take drastic action to protect themselves from these evils.

Muslims in South Africa, exist as a minority. They live within a majority-society permeated with the phenomenon of fast-declining, to the extent of (in some instances) almost non-existent, moral values.

Recently, a Muslim brother involved in Muslim burials confided to Ulama regarding the desperate situation we find ourselves in, as has become evident in the course of his work. He stated that non-Muslim doctors who examined the bodies of dead persons, for purposes of confirming deaths and conducting post-mortems, said that, whereas in the past a Muslim body could be identified from certain signs, this was not the case anymore.

Muslims act on the important position attributed to hygiene and the shaving of pubic and other hair. It seemed that many Muslim no longer engaged in this practice. Muslims were hardly ever found with tattoos. This too was not the case any more.

The brother also mentioned the disturbing trend of increases in the number of suicides within the Muslim community. During the months of June and half of July, there were already 7 suicides in the Muslim Community within the Johannesburg area alone. The suicides were focussed more within the youth with one case being that of a twelve year old girl.

Ml. Ighsan Hendricks, the Amir of the MJC, during his trip to Laudium two weeks ago, spoke about the serious drug problem that they are faced with. He spoke about 'TIK' and explained that within certain sectors of the community over 85% of the community were addicted to TIK. He further elaborated by saying that not just youth but those under the age of 14 and even mothers and grandmothers were involved in the abuse of drugs.

Muslims need to open their eyes to what they are surrounded by and what they themselves are guilty of feeding, directly or indirectly. Muslims need to stop imagining that they are immune to drug-abuse and its consequences and quickly stem the tide that will bring about the destruction of the ummah. Parents must take responsibility for the every move of their children.

The solution lies in practising upon the injunctions of Allah and the sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam).

<Go to Top>
http://www.islamsa.org.za

fatboy_dhaka
24-08-2007, 04:35 AM
The Dhaka ijtima was on February. In March a jamaat from Dhaka Medical College went out on 3 days to a madrasa masjid, just outside Dhaka. The work of tabligh at the medical college is just amazing.When I see the guys its like _ im not seeing doctors in the making, rather Allahwalas in the making. The scholars at the madrasa(deobandi) wouldnt let them stay inside the masjid. They had a very anti tablighi stance. And they had 2 muftis there who were deoband gaduates. So denied permission to stay in the masjid, they asked for permission to stay outside. So they set everything up at the road side. They were set up just beside the drain. Since the place was near the tannery it was VERY stinky. The scholars at the madressa however allowed them to pray inside the masjid, but no tablighi activities. Then the elders of the jamaat ( interns and 5th year students ) went to the scholars and did ekram, invited them to listen to their bayaan, observe their activities, correct their salaah, etc. So Allah turned the scholars' hearts and they were allowed to carry out activities in the masjid, but still no permission to stay. After maghrib bayaan the scholars showed up to " correct " them . My friend made bayaan and basically repeated all the things Hazrat Saad d.b said in the ijtima. At the end of the bayaan the muftis were crying. They said that they had forgotten that " Only Allah does ".
They said having spent all their lives in the madrasa they had forgotten that Allah is the only doer, and that Deen is everyones responsibility.
They made niyat for 1 year and one of them is already khurooj.

fatboy_dhaka
24-08-2007, 04:36 AM
Hazrat Hardoii Shaykh Abrarul Haq saab rah. said to learn fiqh you HAVE to go to deoband. To learn iman you HAVE to go to nizamuddin.

fatboy_dhaka
24-08-2007, 04:46 AM
Tabligh is an effort to INCREASE ONES IMAN, and to reach YAKEEN.
And when one has iman in his heart, he cannot, but follow the way of RasulAllah sallallahu alayhi wasallam. And to learn how Nabi saws carried out his life, he will have to go to scholars.

Maulana Saad Saab says that go visit scholars and think of it as ibaadat.
In Dhaka ijtima 07, the elders repeatedly mentioned to go muftiyan ekram and ask them about your earnings, ask them about your salaah, etc.

fatboy_dhaka
24-08-2007, 05:31 AM
In my masjid right now, there are 2 jamaats where there are brothers from:
Saudi
Morocco
Mauritanita
Sudan
Ethiopia
Yemen

One is with ladies_ masturat and the other is a guys jamaat.
The grave of Abdullah ibn Umar rad. is in the house of the ameer of the guys jamaat. What Im trying to say is that now Salafis are doing tabligh. One time I was going around with a Saudi guy who finished his 4 months in Bangladesh. We were trying to confirm his ticket. When a fiqh issue came up, I asked him his madhab. And he said he was Salafi. I WAS SHELL SHOCKED.
I asked whether hed been doing tabligh recently, hes like for 18 years now. I asked whether many salafis are doing tabligh hes like yeah loads, except the methodology is not like in India Pakistan Bangladesh, just different as the govt. doesnt approve.

So you can understand why our elders dont like mentioning things such as tariqas etc openly. But do tablighis support tariqas_ hell yeah.

SO brothers, food for thought_ the work of tabligh uniting us all.
Unimaginable dont you think?

Some usool taught to me:
- you are out on jamaat for your own islaah

- do not see the shortcomings of your brothers, see your own shortcomings.

- we have 2 eyes, one to see others good deeds, other one to see your own
shortcomings

- when asked fiqh questions by awwam do not anwser, standard reply _ please go to a Allah fearing, muttaqi , haqqani mufti saab.

- if asked questions by awaam what do you know about sunni/shia, jamat islam, salafi wahhabi, etc etc say you dont know anything.
( one time I was out on jamaat way back and 3 of us were chatting. This brother mentioned something about jamaat islam. So I asked whats wrong with them. The 2 brothers apologised to me and simply wouldnt say anything bad about them. They simply wouldnt criticize . In the end when I wouldnt stop badgering them all they said to me was brother the fault lies within me and what right do I have to criticize others. You might not agree this guys stance but this left such an impact on my heart. Subhanallah those guys were so nice, so full of humbleness)
so the standard answer _ go too a mufti

YOU MIGHT NOT AGREE but keep in mind in my university im dealing with kids who go to the masjid once a week. Very very little idea about the deen.

If I may speak my heart out ive almost never seen tablighis criticizing madressa ppl, or ppl of ilm or dhikr. But they sometimes think of us as just tablighis. Ppl who dont know more than basics. Few realize how difficult it is dealing with ppl who pray once a week and trying to get them into the environment of the masjid, trying to convince them to leave their girlfriends, concerts, etc.
And they criticize_ that kids been out on 3 days 5 times, yet he has a girlfriend.
But it is so hard to notice that he used to pray once a week before , now ne prays at least twice a day? isnt that improvement.

One time I asked some of these kids to come with me to a bukhari programme, they said _ what you want us to become terrorists?
Here the awaam dont have a very good opinion about madaris. Even if I spend hours justifying madrassas and how great they are unfortunately some madrassas are not upto it, and the media makes it look like ALL madressas are bad.
Bottom line Tablighi Jamaat is playing a huge role here. Its not only a mobile madrassa. ITS MUCH MUCH more than that.

fatboy_dhaka
24-08-2007, 05:38 AM
:lol: @ toronto shareef :lol:

why don't deobandi ulema just abolish it and encourage seeking sacred knowledge including tasawwuf? (yes i am naive :cheesygri )

brother you have got to be joking :lol:

treo-guy
24-08-2007, 06:11 AM
Bottom line Tablighi Jamaat is playing a huge role here. Its not only a mobile madrassa. ITS MUCH MUCH more than that.

Salam fatboy,

I agree with you a 100%.

It is amazing looking back at the time when I was wondering about which movement/effort to join to cure my spiritual illnesses.

I had the option of joining barelwis/ghair muqallid, jamaat islami/... etc. When I wen tto the markaz of tabligh a few times I was enormously impressed by the fact that they do not criticize anyone! They reserve their anger and criticism only for shaitaan and for nafs. I can totally relate to your story of you and your 2 friends not wanting to comment on a particular group. That is what hooked me to tabligh for good alhamdulillah.

Hence it is surprising to find people complaining the opposite of that on this forum.

Thanks.

tazkiyyah
24-08-2007, 08:46 AM
In the times in which we live, there is no time to criticise muslims.

Only positive action can produce results.

If one cannot do so, then silence suffices.

Sahnun
24-08-2007, 09:27 AM
In the times in which we live, there is no time to criticise muslims.
Only positive action can produce results.
If one cannot do so, then silence suffices.

Masha-Allah, the thread is getting somewhere positive now. Masha-Allah :)

Sahnun
24-08-2007, 09:34 AM
Salam fatboy,
Hence it is surprising to find people complaining the opposite of that on this forum.

Thanks.

I think it is lack of insight, and judging the effort by a few persons, or ones that one they are in contact with. just seeing the negatives, and not the positives.

Notwithstanding, we all have shortcomings, and some are very serious, and they need to be sorted, and not denied. Some of the negative comments mentioned, I dont deny that they may be true, but I Do not see the benefit of just "talk-shop", but more we should join the Effort actively and assist in making a change for the better.

It is easy to talk afar and preach about how things should be but not making the sacrifice to make the changes. sounds very hollow, to be honest.

And not forgetting, Salaat and heartfelt DU'AA for sathees, and the Ummat at large, and all the efforts. hazrat haafiz sb always makes duaas for sathees by name - a duaa that lasts hours.

Waleeja
24-08-2007, 02:27 PM
We have had the same ameer for the past 10 years. Amazing guy, middle aged but so god fearing and full of taqwa. The way he protects his gaze is amazing. Alims are shocked to see his level of knowledge.

He does our tarbiyah in an amazing way. I know before I got married, he talked to me on and off for about 2 weeks, advising me, giving me naseeha. I always do mashwera with him, even in personal matters.

The amount of love he has for his sathees is so evident as we all love him so much. He can be critical,he's not all laugh and joking.

I have alims say to me, that a particular hadith was slightly confusing them, they sat in his muzakhira and suddenly, it all clicked into place. He dresses so simple, but I honestly believe he is mustajabat dua. He has gone through so crazy halaats but his connection with Allah is amazing.

Is it really nosy if I ask who he is? Name-wise, I mean...

Sahnun
24-08-2007, 02:36 PM
Is it really nosy if I ask who he is? Name-wise, I mean...

:cheesygri

zaidf
25-08-2007, 09:45 PM
salaam
havent been here for along time
i didnt knoe that this simple ques. would be so big i hope it is productive?
:cheesygri

Sahnun
25-08-2007, 11:50 PM
salaam
havent been here for along time
i didnt knoe that this simple ques. would be so big i hope it is productive?
:cheesygri

Oh, so you started the fire here :cheesygri

productive, hmm :rolleyes:

Julaybib
25-08-2007, 11:55 PM
Salaam's

Well fire was almost extinguished, I think you just ignited it again :)

Ahmed
26-08-2007, 12:01 AM
any one of u guys knoe the schedul of the jamaata and anyone knoe when they come to houston, tX

ohh boy:cheesygri :cheesygri

Sahnun
26-08-2007, 12:03 AM
ohh boy:cheesygri :cheesygri

oh dewsbury wale, shouldnt u be in markaz now'.?:)

Sahnun
26-08-2007, 12:06 AM
Salaam's

Well fire was almost extinguished, I think you just ignited it again :)
Ighfirlee

Julaybib
26-08-2007, 12:08 AM
Salaam's

Never mind since you joined a bit late I think you missed out all the fun...Besides
e-Teacher has stopped posting so all the controversy is over.

Nothing new to talk abouts.

Ahmed
26-08-2007, 12:10 AM
oh dewsbury wale, shouldnt u be in markaz now'.?:)

too hot/too many snoring/too much noise/lights/etc:cheesygri


make dua for me:cheesygri

Sahnun
26-08-2007, 12:36 AM
too hot/too many snoring/too much noise/lights/etc:cheesygri
make dua for me:cheesygri

Did you hear Maulana Ibraheem's DB bayaan after Maghrib, and the things he said about the symptoms of being "cut jana"?

Sahnun
26-08-2007, 12:38 AM
Salaam's
Never mind since you joined a bit late I think you missed out all the fun...Besides
e-Teacher has stopped posting so all the controversy is over.
Nothing new to talk abouts.

Hmmm! What can I say? :rolleyes:

Waleeja
26-08-2007, 01:07 PM
too hot/too many snoring/too much noise/lights/etc:cheesygri


make dua for me:cheesygri

Was the jor held for all tablighis in general?

Ahmed
26-08-2007, 02:37 PM
for those whove spent 4 months in india or pakistan

Waleeja
26-08-2007, 04:09 PM
So the mashweras are for anybody who's spent any time?

Ahmed
26-08-2007, 05:29 PM
So the mashweras are for anybody who's spent any time?

only a few from each mosque..3 even

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 06:52 PM
Mshwera is only selected brother's from each masjid,normally the responsible brothers. Anyway sister Waleeja,I couldnt possibly say who my ameer is ;)

Sister waleeja,spread the word. Maulana Ebrahim dewla is doing a programme in Blackburn Marqaz,tomorrow(MEN ONLY). Zuhr is a 2pm and programme after that. There was supposed to be a ladies programme in preston but its all cancelled now due to time constraints.

The jhor was for anyone who has spent four months, not necesarily in india/pakistan.

Haji abdul wahab saab was on a level man. Apni hey siyat ko jano.Hum musalman hey. hum ko kisee kay maal or mulk nahi chah yay. Ummat ki upar raham ka ro

That guy is a legend. Some of the people he mentioned in his talks, well put it this way, only he can mention those names and get away with it.

Waleeja
26-08-2007, 09:55 PM
Mshwera is only selected brother's from each masjid,normally the responsible brothers. Anyway sister Waleeja,I couldnt possibly say who my ameer is ;)

Sister waleeja,spread the word. Maulana Ebrahim dewla is doing a programme in Blackburn Marqaz,tomorrow(MEN ONLY). Zuhr is a 2pm and programme after that. There was supposed to be a ladies programme in preston but its all cancelled now due to time constraints.



uh huh, don't worry about spreading the word... my parents will do that enough. yeh, i heard that it was going to be held in preston.
ok... which mosque is your ameer the ameer of?

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 10:16 PM
Well if I tell you that then you'll know who the ameer is ;) . I dont think he would appreciate it him being discussed on a public forum so, as much as i'd like to, I wont divulge the info. Sorry sister waleeja, though I shouldnt think its that difficult. How many mosques in preston where the effort takes place. Then use the clues ive given.

Waleeja
26-08-2007, 10:18 PM
falah? quwwat?

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 10:31 PM
LOL:lol: Its no fun if I tell you the answer. Clue:my ameer is not hafiz bentic saab, that man is amazing too. Always smiling, always does salaam,asks how I am. Preston sathi's should be very grateful to have him as our ameer of the tabligh effort.

Waleeja
26-08-2007, 10:34 PM
LOL:lol: Its no fun if I tell you the answer. Clue:my ameer is not hafiz bentic saab, that man is amazing too. Always smiling, always does salaam,asks how I am. Preston sathi's should be very grateful to have him as our ameer of the tabligh effort.

falah!

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 10:36 PM
Round applause for sister waleeja(after a helping hand from me!). You know who i'm talking about?

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 10:41 PM
Whats his name then? cause I dont believe you.

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 10:46 PM
Bloody hell!!! Does he know you gone these forums? I didnt even know you had the net? He better not know who I am,other wise he's gonna go nuts. But your dads ace, amazing guy, I have so much respect for him,well,our whole masjid war jamaat does. Well to be honest, the whole of England has respect for your dad. You should ask yuor dad to make plenty of dua because believe me , he is mustajabat dua.

ENIGMA
26-08-2007, 11:02 PM
Did I say I was judging you? Explain point 2,desperate times calls for desperate measures. Believe you me, the amount of love and respect I have for your dad is unexplainable. For years he came to my house, encouraging me, making me understand,and alhamdulliah I will never forget that. Even now, i take his mashwera in alot of things. And the advice your dad has given me over the years has served me so well.

Ahmed
26-08-2007, 11:48 PM
That guy is a legend. Some of the people he mentioned in his talks, well put it this way, only he can mention those names and get away with it.


there was no need

allah chooses people for different tests and efforts

islams history testifies to that

if the world only consisted of electricians..who would do the plumbing ..so to speak


and getting away with it??

we shall see..the repurcessions...in time..

some dewsburywallas are not happy..believe me


AND as per usual i ended up teaching the newbies car park duty

and how to handle proud /arrogant 4 monthers ..who think they have a god given right to park anywhere:cheesygri


2 weddings were nearby, 2 and 3 streets away

mashaallah to the TABS....as usual:rolleyes:

the shura is now seriously rethinking future jors ,thanks to some brothers whose islaah is severely lacking..despite all their holydays;)


if a man wants to be made /it can be done in moments

if not..a lifetime is not enough

no matter whose doing the bayaans

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 12:04 AM
there was no need

allah chooses people for different tests and efforts

islams history testifies to that

if the world only consisted of electricians..who would do the plumbing ..so to speak


and getting away with it??

we shall see..the repurcessions...in time..


AND as per usual i ended up teaching the newbies car park duty

and how to handle proud /arrogant 4 monthers ..who think they have a god given right to park anywhere:cheesygri


2 weddings were nearby, 2 and 3 streets away

mashaallah to the TABS....as usual:rolleyes:

the shura is now seriously rethinking future jors ,thanks to some brothers whose islaah is severely lacking..despite all their holydays;)


if a man wants to be made /it can be done in moments

if not..a lifetime is not enough

no matter whose doing the bayaans

SIGH! :rolleyes: "postive thinking wale chahye"

Ahmed
27-08-2007, 12:09 AM
SIGH! :rolleyes: "postive thinking wale chahye"

bro the markaz is my home:D

the work..my work

my love for it ..make s my pain worse..

so i MOAN MORE:cheesygri

mospike
27-08-2007, 07:48 AM
So tell us, who is this that Haji saheb mentioned in his talks (by name) i am really curious.

We have a 7month Peshawar Jamaat in our locality this weekend Alhamdullilah.

The Jamaat was at my house to give me Dawat i was really pleased ...

ENIGMA
27-08-2007, 08:45 AM
I would advse brothers to refrain from mentioning the names which haji saab mentioned. Who was unhappy brother ahmed.really want to know. I did think the names he mentioned were abit risky and if it was anyone else,hafiz saab would have told em to stop.

mospike
27-08-2007, 08:59 AM
If haji saheb mentioned it then i am sure it's fine to mention it here,,,,,,,

Common this is our elders , if they didnt want us to know Haji saheb would not have mentioned it..

ENIGMA
27-08-2007, 09:13 AM
Well sometimes a person can say things in the heat of the moment, dosent we mean we start quoting him. And did you see how maulana ebrahim conducted his talks? nice and calm, thanda dill kay saath. Maulana ebrahim explains things with so much hikmat.

Ahmed, I was abit uncomfortable with what was said too by haji saab, but, sometimes, a walli of Allah is on a level which the ordinary layman cannot fathom. So the walli explains things from his level.

I think for jhors,brother ahmed, Dewsbury should employ a traffic warden. anyone wrongly parked, should be ticketed. simple as that. That'll teach teach people.

mospike
27-08-2007, 10:18 AM
I am dieing to know who or what is this that Haji Saheb mentioned.

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 10:51 AM
I am dieing to know who or what is this that Haji Saheb mentioned.

It will not be mentioned here. period. The majlis was amanat, only for those people who were invited. Those who heard, bury it. It is not for us to ponder on everything the Akaabireen say, anyway. If it is divulged here, it is khiyanat of the Majlis.

Hadhrat Haji Sb is (May Allah protect him) one of the foremost of our Akaabireen. One who has been in the company of H. Maulana Ilyas sb and many, many others. Hadhrat Haji Sb stressed compassion and love for our non Muslim neighbours. To have a concern for them to enter Jannah, and be saved from the eternal doom of the Hereafter. For us to make Tawbah for our past mistakes and sins, and to engage ourselves in reforming ourselves and encouraging others to do so too.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 10:58 AM
Brother Enigma your fault for mentioning Hajji Sahibs name in the first place.

Its not difficult to assess what was said by what was written by Br Enigma......
Scholars not involved in Tabligh being criticised.

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Brother Enigma your fault for mentioning Hajji Sahibs name in the first place.

Its not difficult to assess what was said by what was written by Br Enigma......
Scholars not involved in Tabligh being criticised.

:rolleyes: Talk about digging.
He mentioned many Scholars not directly involved in the effort, and how he benefitted from them.
Dont be so negative. ;)

O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear God, verily, God is the one who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. (49: 12)

Let uis leave it there.

What is the weather like?

Peace Now
27-08-2007, 11:21 AM
It will not be mentioned here. period. The majlis was amanat, only for those people who were invited. Those who heard, bury it. It is not for us to ponder on everything the Akaabireen say, anyway. If it is divulged here, it is khiyanat of the Majlis.

Hadhrat Haji Sb is (May Allah protect him) one of the foremost of our Akaabireen. One who has been in the company of H. Maulana Ilyas sb and many, many others. Hadhrat Haji Sb stressed compassion and love for our non Muslim neighbours. To have a concern for them to enter Jannah, and be saved from the eternal doom of the Hereafter. For us to make Tawbah for our past mistakes and sins, and to engage ourselves in reforming ourselves and encouraging others to do so too.

yep

The Hadith:
Al Majalisu Bil Amaanah (Gatherings are to be kept in confidence) Abu Dawud

And weather is fine, jazakallah.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 11:58 AM
Talk About Digging:rolleyes:

Weather is fine Alhamdulillah.

Also beware of arousing Suspicions in the Minds of others by stating stuff you should not in the first place............

Ahmed
27-08-2007, 12:23 PM
basically hajisaab said

make...love

not war:cheesygri


mohabbat karo
nafrat mat karo

kafir say bhi

go here for further discussions

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25602

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 12:32 PM
Salaam's

Yes let the Love Flow.....:)

mospike
27-08-2007, 12:40 PM
Old Workers Jhor


Asalamualykum


The tablighi "Old workers Jhor" will be taking place inshallah over the easter weekend. My question is that this Ijtima is exclusively only for those Brothers that have spent 4 months or more in the path of Allah, thus excluding the rest who have either spent less time or no time at all. Is this not incorrect, for the elders to put this requirement in? Are they not bodering on the lines of Bidat by making it exclusive?

Shukran

Respected Brother in Islam

Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatuhu

The reasons for restricting this Ijtimaa to a special class is known best by the respected elder of the Jamaat. However the simple reasoning that comes to our mind is that according to the Shariah we are instructed to speak to people according to their level of understanding, deeni committment and acqaintance.

One whose understanding of Deen is not sound, nor does he have a strong commitment and acqaintance with the work, will not find himself comfortable in this enviroment where greater sacrifices are required. The level of discussion may also be very specific and instructive. Such a person will feel that Deen is extremely difficult to practice and may become despondent, disillusioned and will loose the heart and courage to practice Deen.

This approach is taken in the spirit of consideration and affection for the Ummah. Just as this may happen in the Madressah where a child who is still learning to recite the Quraan Shareef, will not be allowed to attend a class where higher levels of Qiraat and Tajweed are taught. The elders of the Jamaat may have taken a similar route.

There are instances where Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and the Khulafaa-e-Raashideen had only consulted or met with a selected group of people for a specific task. Therefore this will not be termed a Bid'ah.

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

Was Salaam

Ml MD Mangera
Fatwa Dept.
________________________

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 02:31 PM
Talk About Digging:rolleyes:

Weather is fine Alhamdulillah.

Also beware of arousing Suspicions in the Minds of others by stating stuff you should not in the first place............

If we look for good, then there is never any risk of picking up najasat. We cant blame others, for our own shortcomings. I think as Muslims we really need to look at the positives instead of searching for negatives. May ALlah make me like this too.

With Akaabireen especially, one must be especially careful. As something taken out of context can mean that people think bad of them, which is very dangerous for their Imaan. And if we start the fire, then dont expect Allah to be happy. No sirree.

We should have extreme Muhabbat for them, and if there is something that is said which may seem "apparently" out of turn, we make a good taweel of it, or just forget about it.

Yes, and love was flowing. Stoking the feelings of compassion, for all the Insaaniyaat. May Allah lengthen their shadow over us, and to benefit from them for many years to come

I am glad the weather is fine.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Salaam's

If we are careful what we write in the first place their is no need for any misunderstanding.

We should be careful in writing stuff that could be misinterpreted.,......So we should be careful in passing judgements on others for our own Lax behaviour.

We should also look at the theme of the thread and realise that certain concerns have
been raised throughout and repeated over and over again.

In this case a consistent allegation has been made and repeated over and again That those in Tabligh look down up on other efforts etc.

So if we make a fairly ambiguos statement that is open to misinterpretation without taking the full context of the thread into account or what has been posted previously then we share a portion of blame and indeed we should not blame others for igniting a fire when we add fuel to it ourself.


So I have no problem in apologizing for what I wrote previously for it was indeed it was wrong.

However I would expect some balance in your remarks my dear Brother, I was wrong and so were those who made this ambigous statements concerning the speech of an elder.

Wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it.

We cannot remain silent on one wrong because those who have committed it belong to the same clique as us.


And if Bretheren have a problem with non-tablighis commenting on this thread take it up with management.

This is a public forum and is called Sunni-Forum, therefore as per the rules anybody can comment on any thread.

Waleeja
27-08-2007, 02:46 PM
Did I say I was judging you? Explain point 2,desperate times calls for desperate measures. Believe you me, the amount of love and respect I have for your dad is unexplainable. For years he came to my house, encouraging me, making me understand,and alhamdulliah I will never forget that. Even now, i take his mashwera in alot of things. And the advice your dad has given me over the years has served me so well.

Sorry Br. Enigma... I've deleted some of my previous posts here because I don't think they were in accordance with Sunniforum's 'please maintain haya'... i.e. 'no conversations which are not needed' condition.
Anyhow... point 2 said 'called', not 'calls'.

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 04:49 PM
Salaam's

If we are careful what we write in the first place their is no need for any misunderstanding.

We should be careful in writing stuff that could be misinterpreted.,......So we should be careful in passing judgements on others for our own Lax behaviour.

We should also look at the theme of the thread and realise that certain concerns have
been raised throughout and repeated over and over again.

In this case a consistent allegation has been made and repeated over and again That those in Tabligh look down up on other efforts etc.

So if we make a fairly ambiguos statement that is open to misinterpretation without taking the full context of the thread into account or what has been posted previously then we share a portion of blame and indeed we should not blame others for igniting a fire when we add fuel to it ourself.


So I have no problem in apologizing for what I wrote previously for it was indeed it was wrong.

However I would expect some balance in your remarks my dear Brother, I was wrong and so were those who made this ambigous statements concerning the speech of an elder.

Wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it.

We cannot remain silent on one wrong because those who have committed it belong to the same clique as us.

And if Bretheren have a problem with non-tablighis commenting on this thread take it up with management.

This is a public forum and is called Sunni-Forum, therefore as per the rules anybody can comment on any thread.

Salaams Julayb,

There was no need to go into interprations. Allegations are allegations. Incorrect allegations will be paid for dearly.

You are correct in what you say as well, about not being lax, and posting ambiguous comments, nonetheless as you have Masha-Allah attested, your follow-up comment was wrong. May Allah reward you for that.

However, this may be my conclusion, and may be totally incorrect, but it seems as though their is fault finding on this thread. Sunni-forum certainly should not be like a gossip-forum or fault-finding-forum, but a discussion forum based on mutual respect for each other.

I dont know quite know why you have said " Bretheren have a problem with non-tablighis commenting on this thread". It seems barriers go up to make it seem as though certain brothers are being clandestine, when there was a need to maintain respect for our pious servants of Allah and not jump to conclusions. If it is interpreted as being narrow-minded then fine. This goes for anyone, not just those involved in Tableegh. Masha-Allah, by the Grace of Allah, I am involved with Khanqaahs, Madrasas, and Jamat work now and then too so it isnt a case of "same clique". Alhumdulillah.

People can comment as they wish, as per rules. However, we all need to realise that all off us responsible for what we write, and one may be questioned by Allah for those things which exceed Shariaah.

May Allah reward you Brother.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 05:07 PM
Salaam's

Well first of all you actually read the entire thread each an every post that is ?

Lets give you an anthology it has been consistently stated and not by myself but those in Tabligh that Tablighis look down on other efforts.

So I suggest in that context you reread Brother Enigmas original post concerning Hajji Sahib.

Then read Br. Ahmeds response to that post and so on and so forth.

As for The Awliyas names being be-smirched well who has been a Greater Awliya in Tablighi then Maulana Ilyas.

So when we had a Salaafi coming on here and implying that the Manhajj of Ml Ilyas (Ra) was in contradiction to the Ambiya (AS)

Were was the Tablighi Brethren. then..........THEY ALL WENT INTO
HIBERNATION.


There is too much fault finding well if you use the search engine there is actually a thread about all the good work Tabligh has done.

This is thread is to point out the defects that have penetrated this organisation.......If these defects are not rectified they will only become worse.

By and large the majority of people who have participated on this thread have deep affection for this organisation.

THe people who have been most critical have been our Tablighi Workers.

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 05:20 PM
Jazakallah for your follow-up comment.

I dont wish to repeat myself. If you read my comments before, you will see that the issues mentioned by yourself, have been addressed therein.

Barakallah.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 05:38 PM
Salaam's

I am sorry but I don't think you have addressed the questions I raised. Nor do you seem to think there was anything wrong in bringing the following comment in the first place.

" That guy is a Legend. Some of the people he mentioned in his talks, well put it this way only nhe can mention those names and get away with it."

Naturally it is going to arouse curiosity in the minds of those who were not present at the Jhor. So explain to me as to what justification there was in actually mentioning the comments of Hajjis sahib and what benefit was there?

Then you have the response to that which was " There was no need Allah chooses different people for different efforts . Islam's history testifies to that ...


So my Brother you can easily see how I arrived at my conclusion.


As for me being " CLANDESTINE" who is being suspicious and passing and making assumptions now?

Have you actually read each and every one of my posts on this thread?....So on what basis am i being clandestine please explain?

When The Manhajj of Maulana Ilyas (Ra) was being questioned..........How is it that this clandestine Brother spoke up whilst all the Tablighis, suddenly developed a vow of silence?

So I humbly suggest my dear brother to read the entire thread in its context and not yourself make assumptions.

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 06:03 PM
Salaam's

I am sorry but I don't think you have addressed the questions I raised. Nor do you seem to think there was anything wrong in bringing the following comment in the first place.

" That guy is a Legend. Some of the people he mentioned in his talks, well put it this way only nhe can mention those names and get away with it."

Naturally it is going to arouse curiosity in the minds of those who were not present at the Jhor. So explain to me as to what justification there was in actually mentioning the comments of Hajjis sahib and what benefit was there?

Then you have the response to that which was " There was no need Allah chooses different people for different efforts . Islam's history testifies to that ...


So my Brother you can easily see how I arrived at my conclusion.


As for me being " CLANDESTINE" who is being suspicious and passing and making assumptions now?

Have you actually read each and every one of my posts on this thread?....So on what basis am i being clandestine please explain?

When The Manhajj of Maulana Ilyas (Ra) was being questioned..........How is it that this clandestine Brother spoke up whilst all the Tablighis, suddenly developed a vow of silence?

So I humbly suggest my dear brother to read the entire thread in its context and not yourself make assumptions.

Assalamu ALaykum

clandestine - actually my comment was: ...as though certain brothers are being clandestine". It was not meant exclusively for you. it was a general statement as it reads.

I dont disagree that the comments were unhelpful, and unneeded. I soon as I read it, i knew there would be an issue, int he way it was written. I agree with you, that there was no benefit in mentioning stuff in this way. Still, follow up comments were a case of 2+2=5. I was especially alarmed at your comments, as you are a Masha-Allah, intellgent and sensible fellow from your posts.

I have read the entire thread, all 68 pages Al-humdoillah. I did read your comments when you were standing up for Hazrat Maulana Ilyas sb. At the same time, if I remember correctly, it was a misunderstanding of the quotes from Hazratma ulana Masood azhar sb. I cant answer for others, but I read it up later, so no point commenting after. I dont know where other brothers were. Perhaps, people just turn off when they see comments from a salafi brother, and not take them seriously. Allah knows best.

It is a case, for all persons, to be especially careful.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 06:48 PM
Salaam's

Well if you read all my comments then you would know exactly how I came to my conclusion I have made my apologies for any offence caused by my remark. I do not think ones status is lowered by apologising.......If an ignorant one like me who has come of the streets were every disagreement becomes an Argument...every argument
a grudge..every grudge a vendetta.....So for someone like myself who comes from such a Jahil background can still put his Jahil inclinations aside and apologise....how is it that some Tablighi Brethren many who have spent years in Dawah.....Find it so difficult to admit that they have made a mistake?


Indeed I have done my own research and I have developed a great deal of Love and admiration for Both Maulana Ilyas (Ra) and Maulana Yusuf (Ra) indeed two great personalities......But however due to some of the reactions from brothers on this thread I have been put of. I also fail to see how my remarks were so offensive....Indeed it seem's to me that some brothers are highly frustrated at the criticism levelled at the Tabligh and admittedly some of it Harsh....So its lets go and pick on a non-Tablighi on this thread.After all would my post have invoked such a response if I had been a member of Tabligh?


I also like to state that Maulana Masood Azhar (Db) did not criticise the Manhajj
of Tabligh...There was no misinterpretation of his statement.The Salaafi Brother
took exception to Maulana speaking affectionately of the Tabligh movement.
In the following statement.

" Millions Of Muslims are prostrating in front of graves. By observing this and hearing about it, my heart starts beating. Then suddenly a thought occurs that one day the honourable men of the Tabligh Jamaat will enter into these mountains and valleys in the form of noor and the darkness will be destroyed. Then a supplication came out of my heart that, O! Allah advance the work of the Tabligh Jamaat and bless them with more barakah."


So you can make an excuse for the Salaafi Brothers remarks as being due to a mere Misintepretation.

With my comparativley mild remark you take an exception. I find that quite strange.

Well as for people might draw a wrong conclusion from what I stated in that post.......Well If people who just joined this forum and this thread and not read through all the previous Posts....Might also make a wrong assumption from your above post about a great Awliya of Allah in Maulana Masood Azhar (Db).....and assume that he had criticised the Manhajj of Tabligh and Maulana Ilyas (Ra) and the Salaafi brother had merely misinterpreted his remarks or something.

So the remark clandestine " Was not meant exclusively for you" but it included me in it
of course. So your assumption some brothers are behaving clandestinely do they not also fall under the Ayaahs of Suspicion you quoted in response to me......So should you not also be aware of suspicion.

Peace Now
27-08-2007, 07:14 PM
Assalamu Alaykum Doid anyone hear what Haaji Sb said about the anecdote going to Maulana Ashrah Ali Thanavi's Janazah?

Ramadhan coming up, so please brothers let us forgive each other, starting from me. please make du'aa for me too.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 07:36 PM
Salaam's

Yeah you is right Brother Peace Now.....I apologise if any of my remarks have caused offense.

After all the test of Fairness is being Fair to those who are not to you.,

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 07:56 PM
Salaam's

Yeah you is right Brother Peace Now.....I apologise if any of my remarks have caused offense.

After all the test of Fairness is being Fair to those who are not to you.,

By the way the "clandestine" remark was a general remark, not exclusively meant for anyone, so it included me too. General statements serve as a reminder. A reminder is beneficial for the believers. I am sorry you feel hard done by. Wallahi, no malive was meant.

Please forgive me too.

Julaybib
27-08-2007, 08:17 PM
Salaam's

Insha'Allah best to move on forgive and forget My dear Brother, I think Brother Peace Now....Is right we need to reflect on our personal conditions especially with Ramadhan coming up.


A Beautiful Reminder:

IKRAM( Honoring others)

" Ikram means fulfilling the rights of other human beings. In fact, to give them more than their right and abstain from demanding ones own rights from anyone"

Hazrat Maulana Amir e Tabligh Yusuf Khandelwi (RA)

Sahnun
27-08-2007, 08:31 PM
Salaam's

Insha'Allah best to move on forgive and forget My dear Brother, I think Brother Peace Now....Is right we need to reflect on our personal conditions especially with Ramadhan coming up.


A Beautiful Reminder:

IKRAM( Honoring others)

" Ikram means fulfilling the rights of other human beings. In fact, to give them more than their right and abstain from demanding ones own rights from anyone"

Hazrat Maulana Amir e Tabligh Yusuf Khandelwi (RA)

Masha-Allah! Jazakallah for this. This really is a high standard of Ikraam. At the very least, we should not cause harm to any person, or being.

The valuable pearls of the pious really makes one shed tears. Jazakallah again.

fatboy_dhaka
28-08-2007, 04:47 AM
if a man wants to be made /it can be done in moments

if not..a lifetime is not enough



food for thought.

ENIGMA
28-08-2007, 09:26 AM
And I apologise for bringing up the details of the jhor. I realise it was a big mistake as a brother has mentioned the jhor was an amanat.

java11
29-08-2007, 03:24 AM
:salam: Hafiz Patels Jamaat is in Barbados Alhumdulillah, May Allah subhanahu wata aala accept his efforts and make this Ijtimah in Trinidad a Succesful one .Aameen

ENIGMA
29-08-2007, 07:55 AM
Ameen

True Life
31-08-2007, 12:40 AM
Since Da'wat is "Ummul Amaal" (Mother of Deeds) there are countless benefits and achievements, that can be achieved through this blessed effort.
So, the only reason for lack of achievements can be lack of (quality) effort.

Maulana Ilyas (Nawarallahu Marqadahu) said something along the line, that the Juhud (struggle) hasn't started yet - it starts when every Muslim has his bag on the back.

Bint Mas`ood
31-08-2007, 02:17 AM
Reviving the sunnah 100%, and submitting ourselves to our rabb. The fikr of how to help every Muslim leave this world professing the Kalimah and how to make every home into a madressa, every musjid into musjidun nabawi, and every city into madinatul munawwara. InshaAllah!

It's amazing how many ahadith you learn without actually sitting there memorizing it and how much your knowledge about Islam increases just through taleem.

I agree though, sisters do need more opportunities to learn about the deen. My sister lives in St. Louis, and they've got awesome programs that the Musjid provides for people of all ages, that's so good mashallah because you can gain knowledge in other areas too. We need qualified, traditional scholars to teach the masses about other areas in Islam. Or I guess, for sisters, one way of increasing your knowledge is reading! Read, read, read...

May Allah unite all the workers and give everyone ikhlaas and the ability to carry the effort and the responsiblity properly as it should be performed inshallah.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
31-08-2007, 04:16 AM
free Food

muslim_designer
31-08-2007, 07:49 AM
especially in the west ... the establishment of Musallas in areas where they can find even as little as 2 to 3 Muslim families ... before the Musallas were established, the brothers never went to a Masjid (except for Juma'ah Salaah) because of a Masjid not being in the vicinity ... but I've seen many Musallas being established here in Toronto due to the effort of tableegh and as a result of which the Muslims start praying in Jama'ah ... I think this is one of the greater achievements in the west ...

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 10:07 AM
Good point muslim designer. I know of many reports from walking jamaats that they went into areas with muslims but no mosques. They stayed in parks, farms, all sorts. They thne met muslims of that area and :alhamd: musalla's and even masjids have now been created.

The reports they give of how they have met brothers who live in the middle of nowhere, meeting them,amazing. One jamaat went and met a guy,they talked,and he cried and said, i have been living here for 30 years and what you have talked about,imaan and amaal, have reawakened my heart.

Colonel_Hardstone
31-08-2007, 10:11 AM
Asslamo Allaikum,

I dont know any other Muslim Jamaat which is multi-ethnic, multi-Aqeedah, multi-Madhab, diverse ON A GLOBAL SCALE and where you can see the Ummah coming together without debates, refutations and bickering.

Credit where credit is due.

Case closed!

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 10:38 AM
Asslamo Allaikum,

I don’t know any other Muslim Jamaat which is multi-ethnic, multi-Aqeedah, multi-Madhab, diverse ON A GLOBAL SCALE and where you can see the Ummah coming together without debates, refutations and bickering.

Credit where credit is due.

Case closed!


then believe me you dont know tabligh jamaat!

take it all the way to nizammudin markaz in delhi. this is the main markaz of the world. after the passing away of Moulana Enamul Hasan (r) no ameer of tabligh jamaat was appointed. only a shura was made. the main guys in the shura, moulana saad and moulana zubair have been in a constant battle against each other to have the greatest hold over tabligh jamaat.

london markaz and dewsbury markaz have been at each others throats for many many years.

in dewsbury markaz itself there are different alliances with their own agendas.



if you want to know about debates and refutations then read the works of Moulana Ilyas (r) who was the founder of tabligh jamaat. many practices of tabligh jamaat today are in direct conflict with the teachings of Moulana Ilyas (r). the most dangerous of all of them is the way that ignorant, jahil members of tabligh jamaat control the ulama and make them take a back seat while they sit on the minbar spouting ignorance.

"It is disturbing to note that responsible people of the Tabligh Jamaat are thwarting the efforts of Ulema e Haqq on Nahi Anil Munkar (stopping the wrong).

This attitude has been one of the two biggest concerns of Hazrat Maulana Ilyas Saheb (R.A) before his death.

He expressed his concerns to Hazrat Mufti Shafi Saheb (R.A) that when non Ulema lead this effort and non-Ulama are given prominent positions in tabligh, they will lead the people astray. (Taqrir Tirmidhi Vol 5)."



seriously people, no one is fallable except for Allah and His Prophet (saw) as he was guided by Allah himself.

tabligh jamaat is not some special part of deen. yes dawah is, but tabligh jamaat is just a tanzeem, an organisation that purports to carry it out like so many other organisations.

there was a time when tabligh jamaat spread the light of islam through out the world.
now this light has been polluted. read the words of Moulana Ilyas himself then you will understand for yourself. start with LIFE AND MISSION OF MAULANA MOHAMMAD ILYAS by Syed Abdul Hasan Ali Nadwi http://www.as-sidq.org/ilyas/ilyas1.html

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 10:44 AM
then believe me you dont know tabligh jamaat!

take it all the way to nizammudin markaz in delhi. this is the main markaz of the world. after the passing away of Moulana Enamul Hasan (r) no ameer of tabligh jamaat was appointed. only a shura was made. the main guys in the shura, moulana saad and moulana zubair have been in a constant battle against each other to have the greatest hold over tabligh jamaat.

london markaz and dewsbury markaz have been at each others throats for many many years.

in dewsbury markaz itself there are different alliances with their own agendas.



if you want to know about debates and refutations then read the works of Moulana Ilyas (r) who was the founder of tabligh jamaat. many practices of tabligh jamaat today are in direct conflict with the teachings of Moulana Ilyas (r). the most dangerous of all of them is the way that ignorant, jahil members of tabligh jamaat control the ulama and make them take a back seat while they sit on the minbar spouting ignorance.

"It is disturbing to note that responsible people of the Tabligh Jamaat are thwarting the efforts of Ulema e Haqq on Nahi Anil Munkar (stopping the wrong).

This attitude has been one of the two biggest concerns of Hazrat Maulana Ilyas Saheb (R.A) before his death.

He expressed his concerns to Hazrat Mufti Shafi Saheb (R.A) that when non Ulema lead this effort and non-Ulama are given prominent positions in tabligh, they will lead the people astray. (Taqrir Tirmidhi Vol 5)."



seriously people, no one is fallable except for Allah and His Prophet (saw) as he was guided by Allah himself.

tabligh jamaat is not some special part of deen. yes dawah is, but tabligh jamaat is just a tanzeem, an organisation that purports to carry it out like so many other organisations.

all correct unfortunately..but for the guy on the street who doesnt get involved in the politics of tabligh..he /she can benefit by sticking to the maqsad:)


my position is..knowing all this as i do...my aim is to fulfil my duty and get close to allah in anyway shape or form ,by/zikr/muraaqabah /dawah

True Life
31-08-2007, 11:07 AM
@xs11ax: Please stop posting so much negative stuff about TJ, it really hurts someone like me who didn't know about these things before.

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 11:27 AM
@xs11ax: Please stop posting so much negative stuff about TJ, it really hurts someone like me who didn't know about these things before.

brother i had given my life to tabligh since i was 12 until i was 20. i left college and a good job for tabligh not once but many times.

every weekend i used to go to the markaz with my bags and stay there.

it was hard for me when i realised the truth.

but you cant run from the truth.

if we dont have the truth then what do we have?

True Life
31-08-2007, 11:34 AM
You ever spoke to the elders directly about this stuff?

Waleeja
31-08-2007, 11:39 AM
brother i had given my life to tabligh since i was 12 until i was 20. i left college and a good job for tabligh not once but many times.

every weekend i used to go to the markaz with my bags and stay there.

it was hard for me when i realised the truth.

but you cant run from the truth.

if we dont have the truth then what do we have?


Brother, you didnt come across a sngle benefit in those eight years?
I'm not defending what you've said... I have no knowledge whether it is true or not (and unless you've spoken to Maulana Saad and Maulana Zubair themselves, then are you also sure?), but I do agree with Br. Ahmed's post, that do it for yourself then. If you found things wrong with the effort, try and correct them. Don't stop completely.
Where there's a will, there's a way. And what 'truth' did you realise? That the 'arguements' of the elders were stopping you from spreading the deen and uniting with your own brothers from your own area?
My intention was not to offend here, it's just to say that rather than looking at the bad sides and being put off, get involved and try your best to eliminate them!

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 11:47 AM
Thast what i said in the other thread. If one puts the politics to one side, there are inumrable benefits of the effort itself.

The words of my ameer are making so much sense. Soemtimes he gives advice on certain issues which we all think, what is he on about.

One advice my ameer always gives is that ' when u go to the marqaz, go as a general sathi, and not with any intention of ikram and respect'.

The advice of my ameer is slowly fitting into place.

Colonel_Hardstone
31-08-2007, 11:54 AM
Asslamo Allaikum Brother x*****,

Bhai! I see Jamaats coming into our Masjid with youngsters who dont know basics of Salah or Tajweed and I can clearly tell that they have been smoking, doing drugs etc.

Bhai! I see Jamaats with old workers who dont know BASIC MASAIL!

Bhai! I am aware of the scandals in Dewsbury Markaz & Stamford-Hill Mosque etc.!

Bhai! I have also spent some time in Jamaat & been close to the Elders as well & I know that the current work (particularly in UK) doesnt reflect what Maulana Ilyas (RA) envisaged or set forth and it is a long way off Hazrat Jee Maulana Inamul Hasan (RA)s goals as well (clear to those of us who did the work when HazratJee (RA) was alive!)

Bhai! I also know that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to speak to Tableghees & Elders about the problems with the work, if they choose to ignore Mufti Taqi Usmani then who are you & I?

BUT let them do the work because there is some good in it for the youngsters & others.

If some youngsters come to you then give them sincere advice as per the Sunnah, Insha'Allah.

Allahu Taala Alum

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 12:03 PM
What is the stance of hadhrat at Bury with regards to the moonsighting??

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 12:36 PM
You ever spoke to the elders directly about this stuff?


the elders are involved in this stuff

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 12:38 PM
Brother, you didnt come across a sngle benefit in those eight years?
I'm not defending what you've said... I have no knowledge whether it is true or not (and unless you've spoken to Maulana Saad and Maulana Zubair themselves, then are you also sure?), but I do agree with Br. Ahmed's post, that do it for yourself then. If you found things wrong with the effort, try and correct them. Don't stop completely.
Where there's a will, there's a way. And what 'truth' did you realise? That the 'arguements' of the elders were stopping you from spreading the deen and uniting with your own brothers from your own area?
My intention was not to offend here, it's just to say that rather than looking at the bad sides and being put off, get involved and try your best to eliminate them!

moulana ilyas said to this effect. if you cannot benefit your deen through tabligh then find a different way. this is what i have done

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Asslamo Allaikum Brother x*****,

Bhai! I see Jamaats coming into our Masjid with youngsters who dont know basics of Salah or Tajweed and I can clearly tell that they have been smoking, doing drugs etc.

Bhai! I see Jamaats with old workers who dont know BASIC MASAIL!

Bhai! I am aware of the scandals in Dewsbury Markaz & Stamford-Hill Mosque etc.!

Bhai! I have also spent some time in Jamaat & been close to the Elders as well & I know that the current work (particularly in UK) doesnt reflect what Maulana Ilyas (RA) envisaged or set forth and it is a long way off Hazrat Jee Maulana Inamul Hasan (RA)s goals as well (clear to those of us who did the work when HazratJee (RA) was alive!)

Bhai! I also know that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to speak to Tableghees & Elders about the problems with the work, if they choose to ignore Mufti Taqi Usmani then who are you & I?

BUT let them do the work because there is some good in it for the youngsters & others.

If some youngsters come to you then give them sincere advice as per the Sunnah, Insha'Allah.

Allahu Taala Alum


there are other efforts as well. tabligh is not the only one

eTeacher
31-08-2007, 02:03 PM
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=d4c862cac4529d06c5b635f336b800cd

Fatwa # 15624 from South Africa
Date: Wednesday, August 29th 2007


Recently the moonsighting issue has come under a lot of debate here in the U.K.

Question What is the opinion of the honoured Mufti Sahib as regards to the under mentioned?


A great number of people are now very much aware of the flaws in following the moonsighting news of Saudi Arabia. However it seems that the Deeni elders of the community are stopping the majority from adopting the true and correct formula as prescribed by the Wifaq ul Ulama. Even the Tablighi Jamaat, who normally claims not to get involved in such controversial issues, has directly intervened in stopping the majority from adopting the correct method. In a recent meeting in Batley a member of the Shooraa of the
Dewsbury Markaz, Janab Shabbir Daji, personally disrupted a meeting in which he was not invited to attend the meeting held by IMWS, he continuously supported the Saudi criteria, not allowing anyone else to even speak on the matter. He and another member of the Dewsbury Shooraa, Haji Bostan are also responsible for donating the costs of the book 'qowl ul faisal' a book which tries to justify the Saudi criteria. This is after claiming that the Tablighi Jamat do not get involved on issues of any Massail.

It has also been reported that Tablighi brothers in other areas of UK, are also being a barrier for the Ahle Haq, despite Fatawas issued not only by yourself but also from Darul Uloom Deoband, Jamia Islamia Dabhel, Mazhir ul Uloom Saharanpur, Jamia Farooqia Karachi, Darul Uloom Kantharia, and Jamia Hussainiyah Rander; that is not correct for the people of U.K. to follow Saudi Arabia in moonsighting.( All these are posted on the website;www.wifaqululama.co.uk) This also happens to be the opinion of the Ulamaa of Saudia One such brother from Stamford Hill even stopped a prominent Mufti Sahib from even uttering the word moon during a Bayaan.

My question to you would be that, is it permissible for these people to be a barrier for the masses to practice upon the Haq?

In the eyes of Islamic law what is the position of these people?

Is it permissible for these non Aalim tablighees (who normally continue to preach that the moon issue should remain only for the Ulamaa to discuss) to meddle in the affairs of the Shariah?

Is this an 'Ulamaa only' issue? Or should the masses be made aware of the reality of this important issue?

Are such people who stop the Haq being preached in the Masjid worthy of a post in the management of the Masjid?

Can this issue be described as an Ijtihadi Masala?

What is the responsibility of Ulama of UK on this issue?

Answer

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

It is very encouraging to note that there is an awakening in the regarding the flaws and discrepancies of 's criteria of commencing a lunar month.

Hereunder is a brief illustration of the discrepancy.

Allah says "They ask you (O Mohammed ) about the crescents, say, the crescents are a means of calculating time for people (and a mean for calculating) Hajj(Al-Baqarah v. 189)

Allah declares the Hilaal (Crescent) to be criteria of time. A Hilaal (crescent) is when the sun shines on the surface of the moon for a minimum of approximately 18 hours after passing the line of elongation before it is visible from earth.

<< OLE Object: Picture (Metafile) >>

See the diagram. The moon travelled upwards the line of elongation till it became a hilaal at point d.

When Allah declares that the Hilaal is a criteria for time, any deviation from that criteria is deviation from Qatiyyus Suboot and Qatiyyat ud Dalalah (express and explicit order of Shariah).

There can never be a scope for another view in the presence of Qatiyyius Saboot and Qatiyyat ud Dalalah. Allah declares Hilaal to be the criteria to calculate time. We have to abide by that. Whoever goes against this criteria is guilty of Nasee'ah (altering time) which is also expressly prohibited in the Quraan. (Tawba V.37)

This is a major sin and there is also fear of kufr depending on an individuals approach and attitude towards violating an order of the Quraan which is (Qatiyyus Saboot and Qatiyyat ud Dalalah).

All the Mufties are unanimous on the open and glaring discrepancies of the Saudi criteria of commencing a lunar month. There are innumerable Fatawa on that. You have also quoted the prominent and leading Darul Iftaas and Mufti's Fatawa on that. This was also a unanimous decision by all the senior Ulama of UK in 1975 in the presence of Sayyid Mufti Abdur Rahim Lajpur Saheb. This is clearly recorded in Fatawa Rahimiyyah Vol 9 (old edition) and Vol 10 (new edition). The resolve was to go by local moon sighting if possible or accept the rooyat of a place where sighting is conducted according to Shariah. Alhamdulillah some of the signatories on that fatwa are still alive and residing in .

It is fard upon the Ulama and senior people of to correct the open wrong of following Saudi announcement of the lunar month.

It is disturbing to note that responsible people of the Tabligh Jamaat are thwarting the efforts of Ulema e Haqq on Nahi Anil Munkar (stopping the wrong).

This attitude has been one of the two biggest concerns of Hazrat Maulana Ilyas Saheb (R.A) before his death.

He expressed his concerns to Hazrat Mufti Shafi Saheb (R.A) that when non Ulema lead this effort and non-Ulama are given prominent positions in tabligh, they will lead the people astray. (Taqrir Tirmidhi Vol 5).

In the discussion of the imbalances of Tabligh Jamaat, in the above quoted reference, Hazrat Mufti Taqi Uthmani Saheb Madda Zillohu states that:

The ignorant people engaged in this effort become Muftis and also issue Fatwas.

If responsible people of Tabligh Jamaat conduct themselves in a irresponsible manner as explained by yourself, then that is a complete disservice to Deen. The elders of the Markaz who are non-Ulama are engaged in "Fatawa" which is beyond their jurisdiction and ability. That is extremely dangerous for the ummat.

One can understand the consequence of following the Fatwas of ignorant people and becoming an obstacle in propagating Haqq and stop wrong. They cannot claim being characterized by Amr bil Maroof and Nahi anil Munkar which is the salient feature of the noble work of da'wah and tableegh..

Hazrath Moulana Inamul-Hasan Saheb (RA), the former Ameer of Tabligh has categorically emphasized that an effort should be made to follow the correct criteria of moon-sighting. His letters have been widely circulated and could be seen on the website of Wifaaqul Ulama. http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/home.html

It is the responsibility of ever Muslim of UK, Ulama, Trustees of the masaajid Organizations and masses to be firm on Haqq and not to compromise on this. Following Saudi is a Munkar and an open wrong.

I urge the trustees and senior people of the different organizations to take immediate control of the issue and avoid putting this issue under the carpet. If elders do not do that, the consequences in light of the huge awakening and restlessness on this issue will erupt in very ugly dimensions. Allah forbid.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Anyone know when this incident took place. Will try and and get more info, if I can.

True Life
31-08-2007, 03:07 PM
There are efforts with less deficites than Tabligh?

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:13 PM
One advice my ameer always gives is that ' when u go to the marqaz, go as a general sathi, and not with any intention of ikram and respect'.

.

he is correct with wisdom

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:14 PM
moulana ilyas said to this effect. if you cannot benefit your deen through tabligh then find a different way. this is what i have done

you are correct too

many ways to please allah

and i know of all youre grievances

know salahuddin?:cheesygri

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Brother Ahmed, I will try to email you sometime today,inshallah. You check your email often?

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:19 PM
Brother Ahmed, I will try to email you sometime today,inshallah. You check your email often?

just did...

nada:cheesygri

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:21 PM
he is correct with wisdom

one great rule to follow in life

dont expect anything from anyone

by a great molana FALAHI of india..quran tafseer like ive never heard before

last year i spent all ramadhan with him

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:25 PM
theres now two ulema meetings/views in batley


hope street v,s henry street mosque

??????

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Is he related to Maulana Falahi in Blackburn?? Defo need to speak to you about something then.

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 03:35 PM
you are correct too

many ways to please allah

and i know of all youre grievances

know salahuddin?:cheesygri

which salahuddin? the one from preston or dewsbury?

both are close friends of mine and both have left tabligh after giving tabligh jamaat the best years of their lives.--

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 03:37 PM
Salahuddin in preston is alhadulliah, connected to the effort again. I think he spent 40 days last and defo spent 40 days this year too. Saw him at the marqaz for the jhor. Salahuddin from jamea masjid yeah? Amazing guy.

ENIGMA
31-08-2007, 03:40 PM
Talking to an alim after juma very briefly, he said, people like to project that the ulema are all one in this moonsighting issue but he said its not true. There is still differences within the ulema regarding the sighting issue.

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:45 PM
salahuddin from dewsbury:)



i also know sal from preston..years back

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 03:48 PM
salahuddin from dewsbury:)



i also know sal from preston..years back


do you know that sal from dewsbury had black magic done on him?

Ahmed
31-08-2007, 03:50 PM
do you know that sal from dewsbury had black magic done on him?

yes..im his best bud.......keep it schtum..and i know who by

save yourself even though others destroy themselves

thats my advice


believe me .ALLAH will sort everyone out in time


keep on TOPIC..:D

this is viewed by the whole forum and more;)

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 04:02 PM
yes..im his best bud.......keep it schtum..and i know who by

save yourself even though others destroy themselves

thats my advice


believe me .ALLAH will sort everyone out in time


keep on TOPIC..:D

this is viewed by the whole forum and more;)

hmmm i think i know who you are now. sal mentioned you a few times.

im not a type of guy that stays quiet in the face of lies and fitnah. but i do try to use hikmah. i know who did black magic on him but i will not mention it. for now anyway.

Ali al-Hanafi
31-08-2007, 05:24 PM
many practices of tabligh jamaat today are in direct conflict with the teachings of Moulana Ilyas (r). the most dangerous of all of them is the way that ignorant, jahil members of tabligh jamaat control the ulama and make them take a back seat while they sit on the minbar spouting ignorance.

1 000 000% agreed! When I sit and listen to the ta'leem sometimes, in my local masjid the Tableeghi bro eventually stops reading from Fazaa'il-e-A'maal and starts to add his own commentary to the Ahadith. At this point, I just switch off. Who is he to add his own unqualified words to that of Moulana Zakkariyyah (Rahmatullahialayh)? A friend of mine is a student at Bury. He was listening to a bayaan of one of the senior ustaads there and he heard the ustaadh say that on one occasion he was listening to a Tableeghi giving a talk. The tableeghi said that we (the Tableeghis) are better than Hazrat Yunus (Alayhis salaatu wassalam) becuase he left the Da'wah and ran away, but we (Tableeghis) are steadfast and do not run off! (Na'udhubillah!!!!) I'm not saying that all Tableeghis are like this, but incidents like this are not few and far between.

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 05:39 PM
1 000 000% agreed! When I sit and listen to the ta'leem sometimes, in my local masjid the Tableeghi bro eventually stops reading from Fazaa'il-e-A'maal and starts to add his own commentary to the Ahadith. At this point, I just switch off. Who is he to add his own unqualified words to that of Moulana Zakkariyyah (Rahmatullahialayh)? A friend of mine is a student at Bury. He was listening to a bayaan of one of the senior ustaads there and he heard the ustaadh say that on one occasion he was listening to a Tableeghi giving a talk. The tableeghi said that we (the Tableeghis) are better than Hazrat Yunus (Alayhis salaatu wassalam) becuase he left the Da'wah and ran away, but we (Tableeghis) are steadfast and do not run off! (Na'udhubillah!!!!) I'm not saying that all Tableeghis are like this, but incidents like this are not few and far between.

as you have brought up fazail e amaal........

the fazail e amaal we have today is not the complete version as compiled by hazrat shaikh zakariyya (r). a whole chapter 'fazail durood' has been s****ped. many other bits have been s****ped aswell. some of the commentry has been changed and the true meaning and translation of some of the hadith has been compromised. this has been done by the juhalaa.

if you happen upon an old mosque that people have forgotten and abandoned for the new palaces that are being erected in the name of islam, try to look carefully on the book shelves. if you are lucky you might find an old english book called teachings of islam ( or is it it teachings of tabligh?). this is the original translation of the original fazail amaal. this will have the missing chapter and the unadulterated commentary of hazrat shaikh. also the hadith are translated as they should be. compare this to the new version and you can see for your own eyes the corruption.


most tablighis, especially the purana saathis think they are better then muftis and alims. the reason ithey think themselves better is because they believe they are doing the work of the Prophet ie dawah and the ulama are not.

tazkiyyah
31-08-2007, 06:14 PM
Sidi xs11ax,

You're very critical,which is fine.
But have you established a movement which does enormous good?

What do you say to the hundreds of thousands of ulema who endorse the work-
Ulema who are du'at of the highest calibre like mawlana taariq jameel.

xs11ax
31-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Sidi xs11ax,

You're very critical,which is fine.
But have you established a movement which does enormous good?

What do you say to the hundreds of thousands of ulema who endorse the work-
Ulema who are du'at of the highest calibre like mawlana taariq jameel.



please try to understand. i do not criticise the movement moulana ilyas (r) found.
but i do criticise what has become of it.

have you ever read the biography of moulana ilyas (r)?
please do so with an open mind and you will see for yourself how much the tabligh movement has degenerated.

as for MTJ.......
well all i can say regarding him is find out what mufti azam rashid saheb shaheed (r) has to say about him.

abuhajira
31-08-2007, 08:41 PM
as for MTJ.......
well all i can say regarding him is find out what mufti azam rashid saheb shaheed (r) has to say about him.
:salam:
Can you please elucidate on this...


:ws:

tazkiyyah
31-08-2007, 10:45 PM
Yes I don't know.

I thought he was generally very well respected by most
deobandi ulema.

Abu Suliman
01-09-2007, 01:46 AM
last ramadhan i was in jamaat with dewsbury darululoom students and ulema

my TAJWEED was seriously improved..alhamdulillah:cheesygri

:salam: did you come to Birmignham with them?

Ali al-Hanafi
01-09-2007, 03:44 PM
as you have brought up fazail e amaal........

the fazail e amaal we have today is not the complete version as compiled by hazrat shaikh zakariyya (r). a whole chapter 'fazail durood' has been s****ped. many other bits have been s****ped aswell. some of the commentry has been changed and the true meaning and translation of some of the hadith has been compromised. this has been done by the juhalaa.

if you happen upon an old mosque that people have forgotten and abandoned for the new palaces that are being erected in the name of islam, try to look carefully on the book shelves. if you are lucky you might find an old english book called teachings of islam ( or is it it teachings of tabligh?). this is the original translation of the original fazail amaal. this will have the missing chapter and the unadulterated commentary of hazrat shaikh. also the hadith are translated as they should be. compare this to the new version and you can see for your own eyes the corruption.


most tablighis, especially the purana saathis think they are better then muftis and alims. the reason ithey think themselves better is because they believe they are doing the work of the Prophet ie dawah and the ulama are not.

Is the urdu one in its original form?

xs11ax
01-09-2007, 07:09 PM
Is the urdu one in its original form?

im sorry brother but the urdu is also no longer in the original form.

if you find a version with the chapter fazail durood intact then that would be quite close to the original if not actually the original itself.

saying that, the present day urdu and english have quite a few differences themselves. or at least they did have about 10 years ago when i was with the jamaat.