ANSWERED: Do I have to do purdah with my nana's brother?

[sosolidsista]

slmz,
q 4 ya...do i havta do purdah wiv my nanas brother? my mums chacha....bcoz no1 in my fam knows and at the mo im doin purdah infront of him but sum ppl r tellin me i dnt hav to....ne1 know 4 sure?

jazaks
Allah Hafiz

[abdushakur]

that is a very good Q.

i think we are all aware of the obvious nah-mahrams and mahrams in our families ie. the direct relations etc. but what about the more 'removed' ones.

does anyone know of a comprehensive easily comprehensible answer?
and/or a diagrammatical aid?

now THAT would be good.

[haqq]

slmz,
q 4 ya...do i havta do purdah wiv my nanas brother? my mums chacha....bcoz no1 in my fam knows and at the mo im doin purdah infront of him but sum ppl r tellin me i dnt hav to....ne1 know 4 sure?

jazaks
Allah Hafiz

This seems like a question for the experts.

You can try Mufti Nawal-ur Rahman @ ShariahBoard (http://www.shariahboard.com/)

[Mossy]

Uhh, well there's an easy to read list of who's a mahram and who's not.

Please see al-Nisa (4:22-23):


004.022
YUSUFALI: And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past: It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.
PICKTHAL: And marry not those women whom your fathers married, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! it was ever lewdness and abomination, and an evil way.
SHAKIR: And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

004.023
YUSUFALI: Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Ok, so maybe that list isn't that easy to read :)

[sosolidsista]

not an easy question is it? lol

[Mossy]

Heh, I'm sure the scholars will be able to answer it. I'm pretty sure they'll say it's ok for you not to though.. Surah Noor too:


PICKTHAL: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

Um, there are some extensions to this though..

[sosolidsista]

hmmm can ne1 ansa this 4 me? i made my sis ring a mufti in our area n its bin a week n he stil hasnt found out 4 us, first tym he 4got n now everytym we ring hes busy so my sis thinks he dunt know n hes avoidin us lol...but im sure ther is an ansa sumwher....ne1?

[Saleel]

:salam:

Sidi Faraz says to submit the question to Sunnipath and :insh: he will try to answer.

Wallahu Alam.

:salam:

[eat-halal guy]

:salam:

Just thought about it....I'd say no. I say that because I think (though not 100% sure) parent's mahrams are also the child's mahram.

So that would mean my dad's mother's (my dadi's) sisters would be my mahrams (because they are my dad's khalas), just as my mother's father's (my nana's) brothers would be my sisters' mahrams (because they - the nana's brothers - are my mom's chachas).

I think (once again) that when one moves up the generation (girl -> mother -> grand-mother -> great-grandmother -> great-great-grandmother), in mahram-terms, all the "mothers" have the same status as the original mother, and therefore all their brothers would be mahrams for the girl, and vice versa for boys.

I hope I'm right. I may be wrong.

Allah knows best.

Wassalam,
Ziad

[eat-halal guy]

i think we are all aware of the obvious nah-mahrams and mahrams in our families ie. the direct relations etc. but what about the more 'removed' ones.

does anyone know of a comprehensive easily comprehensible answer?
and/or a diagrammatical aid?


Okay, I think I've got it. If it doesn't work, please lemme know.


Anyone who we share our blood with and who is above our generation (i.e. is in our parents' generation, grand-parents' generation, and so on) is our mahram. Of course, our parents and siblings are mahrams too. :p

(I share my blood with: my parents, their brothers and sisters, their parents, the parents' brothers and sisters, and so on)

As well, all our kids and siblings' kids, their kids, and their kids, and so on, are also our mahrams.

Okay, I think that's right. Let me know if you fidn it doesn't work for a certain relation.

Those are the basics. There are other more complicated relations (step-relations and others) that I don't wanna get into.


Allah knows best.

[eat-halal guy]

(The information in the two posts above has been confirmed by Mufti Yusuf Mullan :alhamd:, though we don't have a direct reference on hand right now)

[abdushakur]

alhamdulillah, halal guy i think uve cracked the old beast!

so let me get this right....anyone who is DIRECTLY related to me by BLOOD is definitely MY mahram and anyone who in turn is DIRECTLY related to them by BLOOD is also my mahram

BUT as soon as u go one step further it gets shady....

eg. my mum is my direct blood mahram....her sister/my aunt/khala (who is my mums direct blood mahram) is also my mahram....BUT my khala's daughter (who is my khala's direct blood relative) is NOT my mahram.

u can only go up or down the generational tree and ACROSS, but not ACROSS and then up/down again, right?

[sosolidsista]

this is all way tooooooo confusin 4 me....if wat u say is ryt eat halal...then dunt that make loads of mehrams 4 me? (if they alive) k to confuse ppl even more....do i havta do purdah wiv my step bro? we share the same dad, hes abt 13....n if i havta do purdah wiv him...at wat age duz he havta reach 4 it to come into action?

[eat-halal guy]

alhamdulillah, halal guy i think uve cracked the old beast!

(who is my mums direct blood mahram) is also my mahram....BUT my khala's daughter (who is my khala's direct blood relative) is NOT my mahram.

u can only go up or down the generational tree and ACROSS, but not ACROSS and then up/down again, right?


:alhamd:. Yes, that's why I said "we share our blood with and who is above our generation", to exclude cousins, because they are on the same level as us and not above.

[eat-halal guy]

this is all way tooooooo confusin 4 me....if wat u say is ryt eat halal...then dunt that make loads of mehrams 4 me? (if they alive)

Yes, for everyone. Except that most don't live that long.



k to confuse ppl even more....do i havta do purdah wiv my step bro? we share the same dad, hes abt 13....n if i havta do purdah wiv him...at wat age duz he havta reach 4 it to come into action?

Nope, children who share a parent are all mahrams (since they share blood with them, albeit 50%), and mahram-wise, they are the same as regular siblings.


Allah knows best.

[Husain]

Salaams
The answers is that her nanas brother is her mahram therefore no purdah needed.
The principle is simple:
Every person of your usool (your parents, grandparents,great-grandparents etc) is you mahram and similarly their children (not their grandchildren, or great grand-children)
So apply it here: mother's father is mahram, so is the mothers fathers father. Thus mothers fathers fathers children are all mahrams thus nanas brother is mahram.
(See ahsanul fatawa vol.5 pg.73 for this usul)
And Allah Ta'ala knows best

[eat-halal guy]

Salaams
The answers is that her nanas brother is her mahram therefore no purdah needed.
The principle is simple:
Every person of your usool (your parents, grandparents,great-grandparents etc) is you mahram and similarly their children (not their grandchildren, or great grand-children)
So apply it here: mother's father is mahram, so is the mothers fathers father. Thus mothers fathers fathers children are all mahrams thus nanas brother is mahram.
(See ahsanul fatawa vol.5 pg.73 for this usul)
And Allah Ta'ala knows best



:jazak:, :alhamd:!