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SamiribnZafarKhan
17-11-2004, 09:27 PM
Assalam Alaikum,

What is Sunniforum's views on Dr. Israr Ahmad?

If you don't know him, then please read this:

The Founder of Tanzeem-e-Islami Dr. Israr Ahmad is a well-known figure in Pakistan, the Middle East, and North America for his efforts in drawing the attention of Muslims in general and their educated classes in particular towards the teachings and wisdom of the Holy Qur'an. As against the detached, cool, and sterile academicism of many contemporary Muslim scholars, Dr. Israr Ahmad firmly believes in the methodology of “reflection-through-action” which he thinks is amply supported by a verse of the Holy Qur'an:

As for those who strive in Us, We surely guide them to Our paths (Al-Ankabut 29:69)


Dr. Israr Ahmad, was born on April 26, 1932 in Hisar (a district of East Punjab, now a part of Haryana State) in India. He graduated from King Edward Medical College (Lahore) in 1954 and later received his masters in Islamic Studies from the University of Karachi in 1965. He came under the influence of Allama Iqbal and Maulana Maududi as a young student, worked briefly for Muslim Student's Federation in the Independence Movement and, following the creation of Pakistan in 1947, for the Islami Jami`yat-e-Talaba and then for the Jama`at-e-Islami. Dr. Israr Ahmad resigned from the Jama`at in April 1957 because of its involvement in the electoral politics, which he believed was irreconcilable with the revolutionary methodology adopted by the Jama'at in the pre-1947 period.

While still a student and an activist of the Islami Jami`yat-e-Talaba, Dr. Israr Ahmad gained considerable fame and eminence as a Mudarris (or teacher) of the Holy Qur'an. Even after resigning from the Jama`at, he continued to give Qur'anic lectures in different cities of Pakistan, and especially after 1965 he has, according to his own disclosure, invested the better part of his physical and intellectual abilities in the learning and teaching of the Qur'anic wisdom. Dr. Israr Ahmad wrote an extremely significant tract in 1967 in which he explained his basic thought that an Islamic Renaissance is possible only by revitalizing the Iman (true faith and certitude) among the Muslims, particularly their intelligentsia. The revitalization of Iman, in turn, is possible only by the propagation of the Qur'anic teachings and presenting the everlasting wisdom of the Book of Allah (SWT) in contemporary idiom and at the highest level of scholarship. This undertaking is essential in order to remove the existing dichotomy between modern physical and social sciences on the one hand and the knowledge revealed by Almighty Allah (SWT) on the other. This tract is available in English as Islamic Renaissance: The Real Task Ahead. Dr. Israr Ahmad gave up his thriving medical practice in 1971 in order to launch a full-fledged and vigorous movement for the revival of Islam. As a result of his efforts, the Markazi Anjuman Khuddam-ul-Qur'an Lahore was established in 1972, Tanzeem-e-Islami was founded in 1975, and Tahreek-e-Khilafat Pakistan was launched in 1991.



Dr. Israr Ahmad first appeared on Pakistan Television in 1978 in a program called Al-Kitab; this was followed by other programs, known as Alif Lam Meem, Rasool-e-Kamil, Umm-ul-Kitab and the most popular of all religious programs in the history of Pakistan Television, the Al-Huda, which made him a household name throughout the country. Although he did not like to receive it personally, Dr. Israr Ahmad was awarded Sitara-e-Imtiaz in 1981. He has to his credit over 60 Urdu books on topics related to Islam and Pakistan, 9 of which have been translated into English.

In the context of Qur'anic exegesis and understanding, Dr. Israr Ahmad is a firm traditionalist of the genre of Maulana Mehmood Hassan Deobandi and Allama Shabeer Ahmad Usmani; yet he presents Qur'anic teachings in a scientific and enlightened way, being also a disciple of Allama Iqbal and Dr. Muhammad Rafiuddin, and also because of his own background in science and medicine. Concerning the internal coherence of and the principles of deep reflection in the Qur'an, he has essentially followed the thinking of Maulana Hameed Uddin Farahi and Maulana Ameen Ahsan Islahi, though even here he has further developed their line of argument. Dr. Israr Ahmad believes in a dynamic and revolutionary conception of Islam, and in this regard he is a disciple of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Maulana Sayyid Abul A`la Maududi.

For the last forty years or so, Dr. Israr Ahmad has been actively engaged not only in reviving the Qur'an-centered Islamic perennial philosophy and world-view but also reforming the society in a practical way with the ultimate objective of establishing a true Islamic State, or the System of Khilafah. He has widely traveled abroad and the audio and video tapes of his Qur'anic discourses in Urdu and English languages have circulated in thousands throughout the world.

A master's thesis, entitled Dr. Israr Ahmad's Political Thought and Activities, was written by Ms. Shagufta Ahmad in the Islamic Studies department of Canada's Mac Gill University. This thesis is available from Markazi Anjuman Khuddam-ul-Qur'an Lahore.

Saleel
17-11-2004, 09:41 PM
:salam:

The Ulema-e-Haq recommend caution when listening to the works of Dr. Israr Ahmad, since he is not a Mustanad Alim-e-Deen.

Wallahu Alam.

:salam:

SamiribnZafarKhan
17-11-2004, 09:50 PM
:salam:

The Ulema-e-Haq recommend caution when listening to the works of Dr. Israr Ahmad, since he is not a Mustanad Alim-e-Deen.

Wallahu Alam.

:salam:

Why? I'd like the details inshAllah.

Mossy
17-11-2004, 11:04 PM
Why? I'd like the details inshAllah.

http://shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/1493.php
http://shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/1664.php

?

I think it's probably lack of ijaza at a guess. Doesn't mean he's a ghayr muqallid.

SamiribnZafarKhan
17-11-2004, 11:13 PM
http://shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/1493.php
http://shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/1664.php

?

I think it's probably lack of ijaza at a guess. Doesn't mean he's a ghayr muqallid.

aw man! Somebody translate those 2 audios! My urdu is disgusting.

SamiribnZafarKhan
17-11-2004, 11:53 PM
basically the first audio says that he does not belong to a mustanad organization and that he has 'different opinions' it is better to remain cautious of his work

in the second one he said that it is ones duty to teach the ayah when one knows it correctly..... when one does not know it.. and when has a wrong interpretation of it .. people are not obliged to listen..... dr israr's commentary's are not all correct and should be avoided

maybe there is trouble with his commentary.... and i do agree that he is not an alim.. but his other lectures.. stuff on pakistan... and about the world in general are actually amazing..... and he himself has stated once "na mein alim-e-deen hun or na hi koi shaikh" - "i am neither an alim nor a sheikh".... so i guess there is a 50/50 on this guy.. but i must reiterate.. his stuff on general things and politics is amazing....

ma'as salam

Interesting. I've listened to Dr. Israr Ahmad's lectures for 4 years. I have yet come across something shady in his explanations of Qur'an. On top of that, I don't know ONE scholar that has refuted him in his explanation of Qur'an and his revolutionary ideology of Iqamat ud Deen. Nobody (to my knowledge) has taken a point out of his explanation and said 'this is wrong, this is the explanation of the ayah...' If there is, let me know who it is and what he has said exactly.

Jazakullah Khair

Saleel
18-11-2004, 12:11 AM
:salam:

Respected brother SamiribnZafarKhan, I think the followers of any "leader" would claim that they are yet to find anything questionable in their leader's speeches/talks, etc. I just wanted to ask, you say your Urdu is "disgusting" - are you sure you fully understand Dr. Israr Ahmed's bayaans? I thought all his bayaans were in Urdu; I wasn't aware he did bayaans in English? If so, forgive me for my informed knowledge :insh: and please do refer me to some links to English bayaans :insh:.

:jazak:

I have heard from someone who was Dr. Israr's student and had given bay't to him. I cannot say more, but it wasn't a pretty outcome.

Also, I remember hearing one of Dr. Israr's bayaans in which he quite openly spoke against the work of Tablighi Jamaat. Of course people can have opinions, but I wasn't sure speaking so openly about it was the best course of action? Allahu Alam.

Finally, I think I read once that Dr. Israr Ahmed was a student of Mr. Mawdudi, and he says that it was Mr. Mawdudi's exegesis of the Quran which opened Islam up for him. Is this true?

:jazak:

:salam:

Mossy
18-11-2004, 12:21 AM
Finally, I think I read once that Dr. Israr Ahmed was a student of Mr. Mawdudi, and he says that it was Mr. Mawdudi's exegesis of the Quran which opened Islam up for him. Is this true?

Well.. It does say so in his biography in the first post.

SamiribnZafarKhan
18-11-2004, 12:23 AM
:salam:

Respected brother SamiribnZafarKhan, I think the followers of any "leader" would claim that they are yet to find anything questionable in their leader's speeches/talks, etc. I just wanted to ask, you say your Urdu is "disgusting" - are you sure you fully understand Dr. Israr Ahmed's bayaans? I thought all his bayaans were in Urdu; I wasn't aware he did bayaans in English? If so, forgive me for my informed knowledge :insh: and please do refer me to some links to English bayaans :insh:.

:jazak:

It really depends on the followers, if they are open minded or narrow minded. Most of the Tanzeem members, in North America that I can speak of at least, are open-minded alhamdullilah. They will question, debate until something makes sense or what they have understood from other scholars... You will find members disagreeing on certain issues with Israr Ahmad. You will even find salafis in this jama'ah that are open-minded. This is all fine alhamdullilah, it shows that we can think and we aren't "blind followers".

Yes, there are many in english. You won't find too many online, but I can provide you with a few links:

www.tanzeem.us

www.tinabookstore.org



I have heard from someone who was Dr. Israr's student and had given bay't to him. I cannot say more, but it wasn't a pretty outcome.

What happened?


Also, I remember hearing one of Dr. Israr's bayaans in which he quite openly spoke against the work of Tablighi Jamaat. Of course people can have opinions, but I wasn't sure speaking so openly about it was the best course of action? Allahu Alam.

What exactly did he say? Was he talking about their methodology/ideology? If he was, that sounds fine, as long as he isn't 'bashing' it, which I wouldn't personally do. And by 'bashing' I'm saying name calling, backbiting, lying, insulting etc. I've never heard him say anything like this.

From what I know, he loves tableeghi brothers, he said it himself. However, he disagrees with their ideology. Tableegh isn't even a jama'ah; you will hear this from tableeghis themselves.


Finally, I think I read once that Dr. Israr Ahmed was a student of Mr. Mawdudi, and he says that it was Mr. Mawdudi's exegesis of the Quran which opened Islam up for him. Is this true?

Yes. However, he expanded on things Maududi didn't and there are some things which he disagrees it. Maududi, by the way, wasn't the only scholar of Qur'an he learned from.

SamiribnZafarKhan
18-11-2004, 06:27 PM
I'd rather be careful of a guy who learnt from Mawdudi.... just a thought....
yes he is rather critical of the tableeghis..... i heard him once talking along the lines of them not being political.... and i would respectfully disagree with him... for it is not everyone's job to be political.... but his bayaans which do not involve the Quran or sunnah.. which are more or less academic in nature are actually quite amazing.... his bayaans on the politics .. especially pakistani politics are quite good.... it all comes down to the simple fact of taking good and leaving bad..... allahu alam

ma'as salam

Yea of course, it is best to stay aware of what he says and how he explains things; the same goes for every other scholar on the face of this planet.

Regarding Tableegh, yea they aren't political; and the reasons why he says so is because Tableegh feels they can establish khilafah through just doing da'wah and tableegh... Allahu Alam, but Dr. Israr says it just doesn't make sense and that you have to be extremely organized (strict listening and obeying the ameer under shari'ah) in order to do this kind of work, and so on and so forth.

jinnzaman
18-11-2004, 07:41 PM
Yea of course, it is best to stay aware of what he says and how he explains things; the same goes for every other scholar on the face of this planet.

Regarding Tableegh, yea they aren't political; and the reasons why he says so is because Tableegh feels they can establish khilafah through just doing da'wah and tableegh... Allahu Alam, but Dr. Israr says it just doesn't make sense and that you have to be extremely organized (strict listening and obeying the ameer under shari'ah) in order to do this kind of work, and so on and so forth.


Would you mind explicitly stating the step by step process to establishing khaleefah according to TI?

Also, just a quick comment, the only way to establish khaleefah is when people develop yakeen in Allah. You can intellectually prove many things, but that doesn't necessarily create yakeen in Allah (swt).

SamiribnZafarKhan
19-11-2004, 12:17 AM
Would you mind explicitly stating the step by step process to establishing khaleefah according to TI?

Also, just a quick comment, the only way to establish khaleefah is when people develop yakeen in Allah. You can intellectually prove many things, but that doesn't necessarily create yakeen in Allah (swt).

TI lol. Now you are making us sound like TJ lol.

Explicitly? You sure lol. Don't skim through it then. I'll post below.

And yes, you are correct, and Tanzeem is 100% with that point. Even if you can prove something from the Qur'an to be scientifically accurate, it might give you iman (or just enough Iman to convert like Maurice Bucaille) but it will never give you that burning conviction; it will not really give you the desire to live and die for Allah, to work to establish His Deen. However, Iman has two dimensions as you are aware: Spiritual and Intellectual. TJ focuses on Spiritual like no other movement while TI focuses on that as well as Intellectual; "Tanzeemi's are Intellectual Tableeghis," or at least we try to.

-------

Now, to start, here are the 6 stages (there is actually 7, but the 7th stage is implemented by the Khalif). Also, these stages are used in any general revolution. Nevertheless, this is methodology of Muhammad (saw) to Establish Khilafah THROUGH THE EYES of Dr. Israr Ahmad:

1. Propagation of Ideology
2. Organization
3. Training
4. Passive Resistance
5. Active Resistance
6. Final Conflict
7. Establishment of state in foreign countries

So allow me to expand upon each point within the framework of a general revolution (not the tanzeemi revolution yet):

A Revolution (in generalized terms):

1) Must have a revolutionary ideology to call people to. Must have an Ideology bases. It must cut through the roots of the existing systems. Ideology should be new, if new, then it should be re-interpreted to that time. No one will accept it if it’s old, you must present it at your time. For example, security. Security during Muhammad’s (pbuh) time isn’t as great as security today. With Technology vastly improving, this is something that must be added. Even the media.

2) Organize a party. You cannot do it individually. For a change, you have to have a party. A) It must be as disciplined as an army, listen and obey. B) Every worker should be committed and putting in a lot of devotion in to his/her efforts.

3) Train the workers. You have to be mature. A) to increase the understanding of the revolutionary ideology; it should remain fresh in their minds. B) train them to bear the hardships. It’s not as easy as walking upon the celebrity red carpet to change a system; members have to give up certain things as well. Listen and Obey EVERYTHING. Must have a habit of listening and obeying rules in this party. However, if this is a system that includes spirituality, then how can you bring a revolution of spirituality without refreshing the people’s hearts, cleansing their hearts, purifying the souls? This has to be done as well.

4) Passive Resistance. Who starts the conflict? The new revolutionary ideology, they say the status quo is wrong. So they will be oppressed, it is a common occurance in historical revolutions. They might be discriminated against, injured, killed etc. The reaction of the party should be not to retaliate. Verbal persecution will start immediately when the party starts to challenge the system. The Physical persecution will arise later on, but the party should not become violent. If they retaliate at this stage, they will be CRUSHED by the other system. However if they don’t retaliate there is a very profound result. The silent people will start to think why that party is being persecuted verbally and physically, asking themselves why are they being beaten? Have they committed any theft or crime? No, they only said the system is unjust and corrupted. They are telling the truth but are being beaten for this? And they rot in the jails etc. This is a psychological consequence on the silent majority, questioning of the status quo.

5) Active Resistance. When the party is strong enough, when they can risk a head on collision, when quantity as well as quality is powerful, they challenge the system openly. Challenge any part of the system. For example, you can punch my head hard, and it will be weak for some time, the entire body will feel pain. If you break my nose, my whole body hurts for a while and that pain will be there. Therefore, if you keep punching and punching, breaking and breaking, eventually that person will be in critical condition and this is what the party does with the existing system. They attack little by little, attacking nearly all aspects until the system falls apart.

6) Armed Conflict. It will eventually happen. The system has to defend itself.

7) You cannot have a global revolution at once, impossible. The best way to bring about a revolution is to dominate the globe step by step and to focus on each step. The Iranian revolution is not a true revolution.


Those were actually a section of my notes that I took a few years ago on the 8 hour speeches of Dr. Israr on Khilafah.

Now, the methodology of Tanzeem is pretty much the same (same 7 steps); lets look at it from an Islamic perspective in today's context:


1) Propagation. The Analysis of the Seerah (Muhammad’s (pbuh) revolution) is based on one word which is Tawheed. Its implication is as follows:

a) Sovereignty is for Allah.
b) Everything belongs to Allah.
c) All Humans equal.

This is the most powerful revolutionary ever to be brought up.

How did he propagate his revolutionary ideology? He used all the methods and means in that society. Person-to-person da'wah. His own wife, his close friend, his first cousin etc. Allah gave Muhammad (pbuh) the commandment of spreading the word. So he invited Banu Hashim over for a meal and they made fun of him and didn’t listen to his words. Then he invited them a second time and they felt ashamed and listened to him.

Then Allah sent the command of spreading the word in public. So he climbed the hill of Safa and screamed out to the public that something bad is going to happen... Everyone ran to him because he is the most trustworthy. Then he posed the question, if there is an enemy over the hill, would you believe me? They replied in the affirmative. Then he explained that there is no God but Allah and he is the messenger.

He also went door to door in the street and propagated his message.

a) At this stage, da'wah was an underground movement. It was a natural progress. Person to person dawah until the command came to proclaim it in public.
b) The media of his Da'wah was Qur'an and Qur'an alone. 2/3rd of the Qur'an discusses Iman and Tawheed.


2) Organization. If you believed Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God, you were ordered to listen and obey him. People gave him Bai’yah. You must be in a Jama’ah. It must be disciplined as much as an army; Listen and Obey, whether difficult or easy, you must do it even if you have to force yourself to do it. You will still obey when there is a different amir. You must pledge yourself to not quarrel with them, you must cooperate with them.

The word 'Baiy' means to purchase something. If people don’t listen to the amir, then the whole jama’ah will fall and eventually will finish, so you must listen and obey.

However, there is one difference. Absolute obedience was only to Muhammad (saw) while anyone after him, it is limited obedience, under the framework of the Shari'ah. If Muhammad (saw) ordered you to do something, you could not question it unless if he said it was allowed. Today, one can only listen and obey the Ameer under the boundaries of the Shari'ah; if he orders you to do something outside of Shari'ah, it is mandatory for you to not listen and obey.


3) Training.

A) Let them have an increasing understanding of the ideology. Make sure they keep it fresh in mind, it shouldn’t fade away. Therefore, they shall read Qur'an. Qur'an carries the ideology of the movement.

B) Spiritual Purification. This is similar to point A, but the difference here is that there is more of an emphasis on the various ways of purifying the soul and to make its ideal truly Allah alone. What are the characterisitcs of a mo'min? How to do Dhikr? What is cleanliness? Tasawwuf. Workers will be trained to sacrifice everything; it’s not a game, if you really want to establish the deen of Allah, you must sacrifice your life.

C) Intellectual Purification. Deconstructing the Status quo, Reconstructing it in the Islamic light. This also has various sublevels such as the study of Islamic Social and Physical Sciences as well as secular thought and its roots. Islam & Modernity.

D) Da'wah. How it is done. When it is done. Who should it be done to. Taken from books of various scholars, and other misc. strategies. Members are also exposed to current situations/events so that they may increase their capabilities in giving da'wah. Da'wah starts with Qur'an and ends with Qur'an.

E) Physical abilities. Though mostly done through spiritual purification, members can choose to get fit or not. It is up to the local chapter to decide on what physical activities will be in place for members.

The first three stages never end. For the next stage, the Ameer doesn't order its members to enter the stage. Example, he doesn't say, "tomorrow, we are going into Passive Resistance." Rather, passive resistance occurs when after a hard struggle of spreading the message (Da'wah and Tableegh) within the society, the status quo realizes the group is increasing in numbers and support, so they attack.


4) Passive Resistance. Take all persecution without retaliation. Even if they roast you alive, you must not retaliate. You cannot raise your hand in this type of self-defense. Islam is a material revolution, spiritual revolution, moral revolution and ethical revolution. And the people striving for this revolution must be purified themselves, from within; it is essential. In the training, which is constant, two similar actions become manifold:

A) Dhikr, remember Allah. Top most Dhikr is Qur'an. Qur'an gives you spiritual training, intellectual training, and Da'wah skills. Qur'an is treated as a base and not as a reference.

B) Salat, establish prayer to make Allah happy. Tahajjud; Salatul Tasbih; Salatul Jum'ah. All of these have an effect on the members in terms of strength and purification.

You must be able to control your nafs. Islam is self-control not self-annihilation. Prophet (pbuh) said, don’t kill your nafs; your nafs do have rights over you as well. But keep the nafs strong. However, the spirit should be stronger, the nafs is like a strong horse, but the rider which is the spirit should be stronger than the horse so that it can control the horse. If the horse is weak (nafs are weak) then the horse will not take you very far. Stay strong to control your animal desires.


5) Active Resistance. When you have enough power you confront the system.

Terrorism does more harm to the muslims and the cause of Islam. It’s against the process of the revolution of Muhammad (pbuh). Whoever does not follow the path of Muhammad (pbuh) let him know that he will not reach his final destination.

However, Ijtihaad is allowed, and Allah knows best what Ijitihaad will work in this case. The Ijithaad Dr. Israr Ahmad made here is that picking up weaponry against the system shouldn't be part of the methodology. Rather, trying to establish Islam through peaceful means will only work here. Given examples are as such:

a) Ikhwaan. They were destroyed in an air and ground assault once they picked up weaponry against the state. Over 100,000 of its members were killed. The movement was pretty much shutdown. This took place a very long time ago; and the Egyptian government wasn't even a superpower! Today we are facing nations (such as America, or Pakistan) that have nuclear weapons, standing armies etc.

b) Gandhi Salt March. Achieved a revolution through peaceful means.

c) Iranian Revolution. Achieved a non-Islamic revolution through mostly peaceful means; in the end, violence had to be used.

The Power Elite want the confrontation to be violent, because they control institutions that are experts and professionals in the use of violence. Revolutionary violence involves the use of the weakest point of the Challengers against the strongest point of the Power Elite.

Moreover, the strongest point of the Challenger Group is its ideology, its faith and commitment, and its willingness to endure suffering with patience and perseverance. The weakest point of the Power Elite is their dependance on the compliance and obedience of the (increasingly disillusioned and unhappy) population.

Using violence would increase solidarity among the Active Supporters of the status quo, some of who (called Agents) are directly involved in the suppression of the Challenger Group. This increases their willingness to use repressive measures.

On the other hand, Using non-violence appeals to the conscience of the Agents of the status quo, who witness first-hand the endurance and patience of the challengers; this weakens their will to inflict physical injury to nonviolent resisters, damages their solidarity, and increases the likelihood of their conversion.

For more information on the comparison between using violence versus using non-violence, go here (it is in Excel format):

http://www.iqamatuddeen.com/ComparisonbetweenViolentandNonviolentResistance.xl s


6) Final Conflict. Laying down your life in the way of Allah. You establish this system only to make Allah happy, so put your life on the line.

What is the difference between Active Resistance and Final Conflict? In Active Resistance, you participate in the means or strategies of achieving your goal. Nonviolent strategies include mass protest, civil disobedience, strikes, sit-ins, economic boycotts, nonviolent interventions, etc. Creative and flexible strategizing in view of the available opportunities and constraints is crucial.

Final Conflict, on the other hand, would be physically partaking in the conflict and ready for martyrdom.


-------

I feel that was an 'okay' attempt to explain our methodology. I could explain more, but this should give you a really good idea.

If you want more detail on the methodology, read this (Excel format):

http://www.iqamatuddeen.com/RevolutionaryMethodologyofProphetMuhammad(SAW).xls

muslim786
21-11-2004, 11:34 PM
While browsing throught Hanbali Text Soc, I found the following which may be useful:

as-Salaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah,

Noble brother,

Thank you for your question and may Allah reward you. The questions that you have asked have many important points to them.

1. Dr. Israar Ahmad is a Doctor by trade and is not a theologian or scholar in any Orthodox sense of the word. He is the founder and chairman of Tanzimi Islami, which is actually Khawaarij in form and practice.

2. Myself and others had actually met Mr. Ahmad in 1996 in the United States when he was recruiting for his movement, taking oath of allegiance (you must do so to become part of his movement and be guided) and stating that the people are to follow him.

3. He has written a string of books and recorded many tapes on various subjects, all which come to the conclusion that following him and Tanzimi Islami is the only solution.

Perhaps these questions were of some benefit. And with Allah is every success,

was-Salaam,

brother in Islam (Sidi Abu Jaffar Al Hanbali)

Mossy
21-11-2004, 11:55 PM
1. Dr. Israar Ahmad is a Doctor by trade and is not a theologian or scholar in any Orthodox sense of the word. He is the founder and chairman of Tanzimi Islami, which is actually Khawaarij in form and practice.

Oo er :confused:

SamiribnZafarKhan
22-11-2004, 01:02 AM
1. Dr. Israar Ahmad is a Doctor by trade and is not a theologian or scholar in any Orthodox sense of the word. He is the founder and chairman of Tanzimi Islami, which is actually Khawaarij in form and practice.

lol do you guys believe in everything you read? Naturally there will be people who are going to disagree with a man who wants to establish the Khilafah. That doesn't mean you follow everything they say unless and until they produce concrete proof; otherwise, they keep us ignorant of the world around us.

To refute this, well actually, I won't. Rather, I will just pose the question:

What makes them say Tanzeem is Khawaarij in form and practice?


2. Myself and others had actually met Mr. Ahmad in 1996 in the United States when he was recruiting for his movement, taking oath of allegiance (you must do so to become part of his movement and be guided) and stating that the people are to follow him.

1. He clearly has repeatedly said that Tanzeem is not the "Right Path" or the "Best Path" or "The Only Path" but rather a humble struggle for those believers who extremely love Allah to prove it (i.e., through the establishment of Khilafah).


3. He has written a string of books and recorded many tapes on various subjects, all which come to the conclusion that following him and Tanzimi Islami is the only solution.

Read my above point please.

This is, by far, the most negative thing I have read in regards to "refutations" against Tanzeem. Alhamdullilah, you will hardly find any simply because there is nothing really to refute; we accept and follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, and the line of scholarship and hold on to the Qur'an as best as we possibly can.

Dr. Israr Ahmad has said on many occasions, "I am not telling you to join Tanzeem but to join A JAMA'AH." There is a gigantic difference between telling people to join tanzeem and telling people to join a jama'ah.


(Sidi Abu Jaffar Al Hanbali)

Who is he? I want some information on him please.

Hamood
22-11-2004, 01:13 AM
lol do you guys believe in everything you read? Naturally there will be people who are going to disagree with a man who wants to establish the Khilafah. That doesn't mean you follow everything they say unless and until they produce concrete proof; otherwise, they keep us ignorant of the world around us.

To refute this, well actually, I won't. Rather, I will just pose the question:

What makes them say Tanzeem is Khawaarij in form and practice?



1. He clearly has repeatedly said that Tanzeem is not the "Right Path" or the "Best Path" or "The Only Path" but rather a humble struggle for those believers who extremely love Allah to prove it (i.e., through the establishment of Khilafah).



Read my above point please.

This is, by far, the most negative thing I have read in regards to "refutations" against Tanzeem. Alhamdullilah, you will hardly find any simply because there is nothing really to refute; we accept and follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, and the line of scholarship and hold on to the Qur'an as best as we possibly can.

Dr. Israr Ahmad has said on many occasions, "I am not telling you to join Tanzeem but to join A JAMA'AH." There is a gigantic difference between telling people to join tanzeem and telling people to join a jama'ah.



Who is he? I want some information on him please.

Don't worry about it too much brother. Some people enjoy the the culture of refutation.

Yaseen
22-11-2004, 02:17 AM
Who is he? I want some information on him please.

You can get in touch with him on the following site:

http://212.67.202.62/~security/htspub/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=33

He mainly answers questions as regards refuting the salafis, which he does very well. I am sure he will respond to any queries you may have Inshallah.

Azzam
22-11-2004, 06:07 PM
Samir,

Dont believe everything Abu Jafar Al Hanbali says. I havent gone through everything he says. But among the Jihad things he mentioned he made some false accusations. From what I think, he also does not know Sheikh Hamoud well enough and some of the other ulema from saudi or Umar Abdur Rahman to say things about them.

So to see all this in perspective I would like to know exactly who his teachers are and how and when did he come in contact with Sheikh Hamoud or Sheikh Jibreen, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam or others. I also would like to know which lands of Jihad he went to and what sort of contacts does he have with Mujahideen movements and groups. Like what is his opinion of Sheikh Yusuf Uyayri and others.

If someone or those who adhere to what he says can answer that, that will help a lot.

faqir
22-11-2004, 06:33 PM
Asalamu alaykum Akhi samar,

Does Dr. Israr have authorization (ijazah) through a continuous line of transmission (isnad) back to the Prophet?

If so, could you post the details of the teachers he has studied the Islamic sciences with who have given him this authorisation?

JazakAllah khair.

p.s. I agree with some of the comments above - I find his political analysis - particularly in relation to Pakistan very useful.

Usman
22-11-2004, 09:17 PM
Does Dr. Israr have authorization (ijazah) through a continuous line of transmission (isnad) back to the Prophet?

If so, could you post the details of the teachers he has studied the Islamic sciences with who have given him this authorisation?

JazakAllah khair.

p.s. I agree with some of the comments above - I find his political analysis - particularly in relation to Pakistan very useful.

Salamun Alaikum,

This is my first post here. I would like to tell a little problems with Dr.Israr Ahmed Sahib.
Well, most of them have been told by the brothers before, but I'll just get to the concised ones I've been experiencing.

1) First off, his Tanzeem's unit was formed at our place, so a Tablighi bhai took me there. I was told by his representatives, that Dr. Israr has been a very staunch worker for Jamaat-e-ISlami, and his most knowledge comes from Maudoodi's Taf'heemul Qur'an .

This was the first problem I found, which was later on, confirmed, when he said, that Till the Half khilafah of Syyedna Uthman Ibn Affan (Radhi Allahu Anh) , the Khilafah period went correctly. After that , there were disturbances and "MULOOKIYAT" started. May Allah protect me if Im exaggerating it, but this is what I remember.

Secondly, on one of his TV lectures, I heard him saying , "if your life is in danger, and you think you can save yourself by saying KUFR, then you should say it, this is the saheeh Mas'alah".

Finally, I was sitting with Mufti Abu Lubabah Shah Mansoor, (Of Dharb-i-Mumin, and author of Nidaul Haramain). I asked him about Dr.Israr Ahmed. Sheikh said, that he makes mistakes in the masail.

Actually Dr.Israr is a Professor, and not a doctor of Majeestar, he's an MBBS doctor. So he doesn't know the rules of what he is saying. And merely books don't teach everything.

Sheikh Yousuf Ludhyanvi Shaheed (Rahimahullah) wrote a detailed article in his Monthly "Bayyinaat" by the topic of "Firqa-e-Aaliya Israriya" , against Dr.sahib.

Still, I don't think he's a major Fitnah, but Muslims should avoid listening to him.

WasSalaam,
Usman Ahmed

SamiribnZafarKhan
22-11-2004, 09:29 PM
This was the first problem I found, which was later on, confirmed, when he said, that Till the Half khilafah of Syyedna Uthman Ibn Affan (Radhi Allahu Anh) , the Khilafah period went correctly. After that , there were disturbances and "MULOOKIYAT" started. May Allah protect me if Im exaggerating it, but this is what I remember.

And how would this be incorrect? In my opinion, it makes sense historically speaking. After his Khilafah, there was kingship; this is not Khilafah.


Secondly, on one of his TV lectures, I heard him saying , "if your life is in danger, and you think you can save yourself by saying KUFR, then you should say it, this is the saheeh Mas'alah".

Brother, he based this off of an ayah of Qur'an; he never talks without knowledge. The ayah says if you are in danger, then you can declare kufr (but not with your heart), just so you can save yourself.

Does anybody know the ayah? I forget it.


Finally, I was sitting with Mufti Abu Lubabah Shah Mansoor, (Of Dharb-i-Mumin, and author of Nidaul Haramain). I asked him about Dr.Israr Ahmed. Sheikh said, that he makes mistakes in the masail.

What mistakes? Explain every one of them please. If you generalize, I will never believe you.


Actually Dr.Israr is a Professor, and not a doctor of Majeestar, he's an MBBS doctor. So he doesn't know the rules of what he is saying. And merely books don't teach everything.

He doesn't know the rules of what is saying? Do you mean Shari'ah? How so? Explain. Furthermore, he didn't just learn from 'books', he learned from many scholars including Sheikh ul Hadith.


Sheikh Yousuf Ludhyanvi Shaheed (Rahimahullah) wrote a detailed article in his Monthly "Bayyinaat" by the topic of "Firqa-e-Aaliya Israriya" , against Dr.sahib.

What does it say? Translate it into English please.


Still, I don't think he's a major Fitnah, but Muslims should avoid listening to him.

Your arguments are weak and baseless. Bring proof if you are serious. Because all of what you wrote will just create fitna and not an understanding for each other.


Does Dr. Israr have authorization (ijazah) through a continuous line of transmission (isnad) back to the Prophet?

If so, could you post the details of the teachers he has studied the Islamic sciences with who have given him this authorisation?

JazakAllah khair.

InshAllah, I'll get back to you on that as I am not that knowledgable on this.

Usman
22-11-2004, 09:43 PM
And how would this be incorrect? In my opinion, it makes sense historically speaking. After his Khilafah, there was kingship; this is not Khilafah.

What about Syyedna Ali (RAA)? and you should know, that Syyedna Amir Muaviya (RAA) was not a KING, he was also a chosen khalifah, but was misinformed, and led to war with Syyedna Ali(RAA). This is a historic event, and im never very good in History...


He doesn't know the rules of what is saying? Do you mean Shari'ah? How so? Explain. Furthermore, he didn't just learn from 'books', he learned from many scholars including Sheikh ul Hadith.

Well, name them, because I may be wrong, if he has been granted Ijazah, then name the scholars please.


Brother, he based this off of an ayah of Qur'an; he never talks without knowledge. The ayah says if you are in danger, then you can declare kufr (but not with your heart), just so you can save yourself.

Does anybody know the ayah? I forget it.

Please inform me too, because Kizb is an act which is done Amadan(willingly), and has been told to be the signature of Kuffar, hence, Haraam.
But let me know what Ayaat and Ahadeeth does he bring as proof, because Tafseer Bir-Rayee is Haram as well.


What does it say? Translate it into English please.


Quote:
Still, I don't think he's a major Fitnah, but Muslims should avoid listening to him.





Your arguments are weak and baseless. Bring proof if you are serious. Because all of what you wrote will just create fitna and not an understanding for each other.

Actually, as I said, I don't consider him to be a major fitnah, so I don't collect much info about them. Moreover, what I told was my experience, not "arguments", so don't be so offensive. I'll try to obtain a copy of Sheikh Ludhyanvi Shaheed (Rahimahullah)'s article, and post them here.

By the way, if you ever happen to read Dharb-i-Mumin, you can always obtain a Fatwa from them regarding this issue , by posting on their Address.

Their Address is Darulifta' wal Irshaad, Nazimabad # 4, Karachi, Pakistan.

SamiribnZafarKhan
22-11-2004, 09:48 PM
What about Syyedna Ali (RAA)? and you should know, that Syyedna Amir Muaviya (RAA) was not a KING, he was also a chosen khalifah, but was misinformed, and led to war with Syyedna Ali(RAA). This is a historic event, and im never very good in History...

During Ali's (RAA) time, the sects emerged; it was no longer a pure Khilafah, however, better than nothing. One such sect, Shiasm. Things just got worse after that. Read Dr. Israr Ahmad's, "Rise and Decline of Muslim Ummah." It is an excellent book in terms of historical knowledge of our rises and declines.


Well, name them, because I may be wrong, if he has been granted Ijazah, then name the scholars please.

I'll ask the people who are older than me; they know better.

Usman
22-11-2004, 09:52 PM
During Ali's (RAA) time, the sects emerged; it was no longer a pure Khilafah, however, better than nothing. One such sect, Shiasm. Things just got worse after that. Read Dr. Israr Ahmad's, "Rise and Decline of Muslim Ummah." It is an excellent book in terms of historical knowledge of our rises and declines.

I'll try to get more info on this inshaAllah, but actually, the Fitnah of Ibn Siba Mal'oon started during the time of Syyedna Usman Ibn Affan (Radhi Allahu Anh). These were the same people who Martyred Syyena Usman (RAA).

Anyway, will look forward to your reply about Dr.Sahib's Asaatiza....inshaAllah

Muawiyah
22-11-2004, 10:09 PM
I don't know Abu Jafar Hanbali but as a former supporter of similiar group {IJT, Dr. Israr was one of it's earliest amirs} i must say people should not refer to Dr. Israr's tafaseer. Here are some of Dr.Israr's sources for his Tafseer of the Quraan, he cites four souces of inspiration:

Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind Maulana Mahmood Hasan Deobandi rahimahullah and Allaamah Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani rahimahullah

Iqbal and Dr. Rafi' ud Deen

Abul Kalaam Azad and Maududi

Faraahi and his student Islaahi

Now the last two are modernist non-scholars, products of the Aligarh ideology, deniers of many necessities of the deen like rajm for the married zani, and that the murtadd is to be killed and that Eesa `alyhissalaam is alive and will decend and deniers of most ahadeeth. Abul Kalaam Azad, Maududi and Iqbal also tried similarly to "re-interpret Islam" though they weren't as bad as Faraahi and his students. Dr. Rafiuddeen is one of those Sir Syed type characters who tried to "reconcile Islam with science"

Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind rahimahullah and Allaamah Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani rahimahullah Dr. sahib does not really follow aside from sometimes quoting Shaykh ul Hinds Tarjumah with hashiyah by Allaamah Uthmani, what he really follows is Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi's conception of Shaykh ul Hind's movement in the light of Marx's Theory of Revolution that Maulana Ubaidullah learned in his exile in Russia, that's what Dr. sahib refers to when he says "Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind" or "Tehrik-i-Shaykh ul Hind".

salman
22-11-2004, 10:10 PM
Salamu alaikum

Whoever states that Sayyidina Alis khilafat was kingship and not "pure" khilafat are ignorant of history and the Ijma of the muslims. The first king was Sayyidina Muawiyah as mentioned in his own words which Al-Dhahabi cites : “I am the first of the kings” (ana awwalu al-muluk) in the Siyar(3:157).

Wallahu A'lam

ridhwan
23-11-2004, 12:25 AM
And how would this be incorrect? In my opinion, it makes sense historically speaking. After his Khilafah, there was kingship; this is not Khilafah.

The hadith of Safina (radiAllahu Anhu) is authentic and Shah WaliAllah (rahimullah) and others have agreed on the four Khulafa Rashideen.

Shah Wali Allah (rahimullah) has commented on this division of legacy in the following words:

پس وارث آنحضرت هم بسه قسم منقسم اند, فوراثه الذين أخذوا الحكمة و العصمة و القطبية الباطنية, هم أهل بيته و خاصته, و وراثه الذين أخذوا الحفظ و التلقين و القطبية الظاهرة الإرشادية, هم أصحابه الكبار كالخلفاء الأربعة و سائر العشرة, و وراثه الذين أخذوا العنايات الجزئية و التقوى و العلم, هم أصحابه الذين لحقوا بإحسان كأنس و أبي هريرة و غيرهم من المتأخرين, فهذه ثلاثة مراتب متفرعة من كمال خاتم الرسل صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

People who have received the Prophet’s legacy are of three kinds: ‘The first kind is of those who received wisdom, virtuousness and inner enlightenment from him. These are the members of his family and dignitaries.

The second group is of those who received the legacy of external blessings from him in the form of virtuousness, religious instruction and manifest guidance. These are his Companions, eg the four (rightly-guided) caliphs and the ten (Companions) who received glad tidings (of paradise from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ). The third group is of those who received individual blessings from him in the form of knowledge and piety. These are the people who were steeped in the virtue of selflessness, like Anas and Abu Hurayrah (radiAllahu anhum), and the people who came later.’ The three forms of legacy owe their origin to the finality of messengership


"Successorship (al-khilafa) after me shall last for thirty years. After that, there will be kingship".

Imam Ahmad declared this narration sound and adduced it as a proof for the caliphate of the four Imams. A sound hadith narrated from Safina by al-Tirmidhi (hasan) with a fair chain according to Shaykh `Abd Allah al-Talidi who declared it sahîh because of its corroborative and witness-chains in his edition of al-Suyuti's Tahdhib al-Khasa'is (p. 293 #375); also narrated by al-Nasa'i, Abu Dawud, Ahmad in his Musnad with two chains; al-Hakim; Ibn Hibban with two fair chains as stated by al-Arna'ut (15:34 #6657, 15:392 #6943); al-Tayalisi in his Musnad (p. 151, 479); and al-Tabarani in al-Kabir with several chains. This narration is among the Proofs of Prophethood" (dala'il al-nubuwwa) as the sum of the first five caliphates is exactly thirty years: two years and three months for Abu Bakr, ten years and a half for `Umar, twelve years for `Uthman, four years and nine months for `Ali, and six months for al-Hasan as narrated from Safina by al-Suyuti in Tahdhib al-Khasa'is (p. 293 #375) and Tarikh al-Khulafa' (p. 22, 198-199).

As br Salman pointed out - Al-Dhahabi cites the saying by Mu`awiya:

"I am the FIRST of the KINGS (ana awwalu al-muluk) in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' ("Lives of the Elite of the Nobility") (3:157).

Al-Aqeedah al-Tahawiyyah ( the doctrinal creed of the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah)

ونثبت الخلافة بعد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أولا لأبي بكر الصديق رضي الله عنه تفضيلا له وتقديما على جميع الأمة، ثم لعمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه، ثم لعثمان رضي الله عنه، ثم لعلي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، وهم الخلفاء الراشدون والأئمة المهتدون.

We confirm that, after death of the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, the caliphate went first to Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, thus proving his excellence and superiority over the rest of the Muslims; then to 'Umar ibn alKhattab, may Allah be pleased with him; then to 'Uthman, may Allah be pleased with him; and then to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him. These are the Rightly-Guided Caliphs (Al-Khulafa Ar-Rashidoon) and upright leaders.


Al-Aqeedah al-Wasatiya (Ibn Taymiya)

They accept what has been reported continuously from the Prince of the Believers, 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him), and from others, that the best men of this 'Ummah after its Prophet are: Abu Bakr; then 'Umar; third, 'Uthman, and fourth, 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with them all). All Traditions have indicated, and all Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) have agreed upon giving priority to 'Uthman out of regard for his allegiance (al-Bai'ah), although some of the people of the Sunnah are disputing over whether 'Uthman or 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with both of them) has the priority, after they (the people of the Sunnah) had agreed upon giving priority to Abu Bakr and 'Umar. Some people gave the priority to 'Uthman and kept silent and considered 'Ali to be the fourth. However, some people preferred 'Ali. And some remained neutral. But the people of the Sunnah settled on preferring 'Uthman, even though this matter - the matter of 'Uthman and 'Ali - is not of the fundamentals. The majority of the people of the Sunnah do not consider disagreeing in this matter as being misled. Rather, it is in the matter of the "Question of the Caliphate" where they consider the disagreeing person to be misled.

Ahl as-Sunnah believe that the Caliph after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is Abu Bakr; then 'Umar; then 'Uthman, then 'Ali, and that whoever contests the Caliphate of any one of these Imams is indeed more lost than an ass

--

Allahu Aalim

ridhwan
23-11-2004, 12:29 AM
Following is taken from a reply ( from another board) to someone else who questioned the Caliphate of Hadrat Ali RadiAllahu Anhu

Please add - Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam - RadiAllahu Anhu - RahimAllah - where appropriate

Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in Kitab Al-Sunnah :

Abdullah Ibn Ahmad said: " I asked my father about the Imams. He said: Abu Bakr and them Umar and then Uthman and then Ali"

Abdullah Ibn Ahmad said: " I asked my father about a group which says that Ali is not Khalifah, he replied: This is an evil and corrupt saying"

From Manaqib Ahmad for Ibn Al-Jawzi:

Imam Ahmad said: " Whoever does not confirm the Khilafah for Ali then he is more misguided than the donkey of his family"

From Tabaqat Al-Hanabila for Abu Yala:

Imam Ahmad said: " Whoever does not make Ali Ibn Abil Talib the fourth in Khilafah then do not talk to him nor allow him to marry from your (women)"

and in Majmoo' al-Fatawa of ibn Taymiia:

" Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said: " Whoever does not make Ali the fourth in Khilafah then he is more misguided than the donkey of his family"

Ibn Abi Asim in Kitab Al-Sunnah regarding matters of the creed of Ahlul Sunnah:

" Belief in seeing Allah -tala- , he will be seen by his awliya in the Hereafter with their eyesight as mentioned in traditions and (the belief that) Abu Bakr Al-Sideeq is the best of the companions of the Messenger of Allah after him and that he is the Khalifah with Khilafah of Nubuwwa, being given the oath of allegiance when they did while being their best and most elligible and then Umar Ibn Al-Khattab after him as such and then Uthman Ibn Affan after him as such and then Ali after them as such -May Allah have Mercy on them all-"

Imam Tahawi said in Aqeedah Tahawiya:

" And we believe that the Khilafah after the Messenger of Allah is first for , making him better and giving him priority over the whole of the ummah, and then for Umar Ibn Al-Khattab , and then for Uthman , and then for Ali Ibn Abi Talib and they are the Rightly Guided Khalifas and the guided Imams (الأئمة المهديون ) "

Abu Al-Hassan Al-Ashari in Kitab Al-Ibanah:

" And if the Imamah of has been confirmed then the Imamah of has also been confirmed because decreed him and established Imamah for him and chose him for it, and he was the best after Abu Bakr . And the Imamah of Uthman has been confirmed after Umar by the oath of those who were designated as Ahlul Shura who were decreed by Umar so they chose him and accepted his Imamah and had a consensus on his merits and justice. And the Imamah of Ali after Uthman because of the oath given by those of the companions from Ahlul Hal wal Aqd, and because it was not claimed by any of the people of Shura except for him at his time, and there is a consensus on his merits and justice , and (we believe) that his abstinence from claiming it for himself at the time of the Khalifs before him was truth, because he knew that that is not the time for him to stand, (I omitted a phrase here that I could not understand), and then when the matter became (for him) he declared and made it apparent and he did not come to a shortcoming until he passed with guidance and correct judgment as those Khalifs before of the Imams of justice , correctness and guidance following the Book of their Lord and the way of their Prophet. These are the four Imams that are agreed upon for their justice and merits"

Imam Al-Ajuri in Kitab Al-Shareea':

" You should know - May allah have mercy on you- that the Khilafah of Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman and Ali is explained in the book of Allah -azza wa jal- and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah and explained in the saying of the companions of the Messenger of Allah and explained in the saying of the Tabiyyin with Ihsan. A Muslim who has senses from Allah -tala- should not have doubt in this"

and he also said: " This is our belief that Ali Ibn Abi Talib is the fourth Khalifa"

and he related from Al- Rabi Ibn Sulayman: "I heard Al-Shafi say in Khilafah and order in terms of merits for Abu Bakr and then Umar and then Uthman and then Ali . (Al-Ajuri said): and this is the saying of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal . So I have proved from the explanation of Khilafah of Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman and Ali such that if a believer looked at it would be pleased and his love for all of them would be increased and if a evil Rafidi or debased Nasibi looked at it Allah would make their eyes hot (or filled with hatred) in this world and the Hereafter"

Imam Abu Bakr Al-Ismaili in Itiqad Aimat Al-Hadith:

"And they believe in the Khilafah of Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah by the choice of the Sahaba for him and then the Khilafah of Umar after Abu Bakr because of Abu Bakr making him Khalif, and then the Khilafah of Uthman because of the agreement of Ahlul Shura and the rest of Muslims on him by the order of Umar, and then the Khilafah of Ali Ibn Abi Talib because of the bai'ah of those from amongst the people of Badr who gave him bai'ah: Ammar Ibn Yassir and Sahl Ibn Hunaif and whoever followed them from amongst the other Sahabah along with his presedence (in Islam) and his merits."

Imam Bayhaqi in Kitab Al-Itiqad:

"Chapter: the Khilafah of Abu Al-Hassan Ali Ibn Abi Talib"

Imam Ibn Qudama in Lumat Al-Itiqad:

"and he (i.e Abu Bakr) is the most elligible from the creation of Allah for Khilafah after the Prophet for his merits and his early conversion and for the Prophet giving him presedence in (leading) prayer over the rest of the companions and for the consensus of the companions in giving him presedence and giving him baya' and Allah would not make them gather on misguidance and then after him Umar for his merits and for Abu Bakr's passing (Khilafah) to him, and then Uthman because Ahlul Shura gave him presedence and then Ali for his merits and the consensus of the people of his time on him and these are the rightly guided Khalifs, in whose regards the Prophet said: " Take heed to my way (sunnah) and the way of the righlt guided Khalifs after me, bite on it with your teeth"

The dispute between the Sahaba and Ali was not over Khilafah, it was about perfoming the legal punish ment on the killers of Uthman . Every one knew that Ali was the natural successor to Uthman because he was one of the six who Umar chose and he remained till the end, the rest of Ahlul Shura, except for Uthman were ruled out until only Uthman and Ali -Radia Allahi Anhuma- were left, and then people chose Uthman .

However, the killers of Uthman surrounded Ali and called for his ba'aih, even Ali himself at the beggining was hesitant to accept bai'ah from people in such conditions. Many companions, such as Ibn Umar, Saad Ibn Abi Waqas and Usamah Ibn Zaid, gave bai'ah to Ali but did not participate in his army (as will be mentioned later in this post).

Also Ali's wise judgment was not to implement the punishment before the matters would settle and the chaos resulting from the killing of Uthman . You can read more on this in the following post:

Understanding the different opinions of Sahaba

The claim that the Sahaba disputed with Ali is a Rafidi claim and not a Sunni claim

The events at the time of Sahaba were a big fitnah , and it is easy for one sitting in the comfort of his house to make a judgment that this is wrong and that is right based on such and such, but not in the course of such events.

The Prophet informed that the truth was with Ali on several occassions:

(1) His hadith to Al-Zubair that he will fight Ali while oppressing him.
(2) Hadith that Ammar will be killed by the oppressor group
(3) Hadith that the closest group to the truth would kill the Kharijites
(4) Hadith of the 30 years which I will discuss later.

All of these hadiths were unravelled only after the events came to take place. Prior to that no one knew how these hadiths will come to take place. That is why I said earlier:

After the tribulations of at the time of companions passed away, and the truth became clear , Imam Ahmad said regarding one who disputes/denies that Ali is the fourth Khalifah that he is more misguided than the donkey of his family

There is no excuse for anyone to hold to ijtihad of the companions that was proven to be wrong by the hadith of the Prophet . There is no excuse for anyone to reject the hadiths of the Prophet and the consensus of Ahlul Sunnah that Ali is the fourth Khalif.

They themselves are fallible but their consensus has been made infallible by the Prophet . So whoever rejects that, then he has chose to take a different way than the way of the believers. Allah -tala- said:

" And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto Hell - what an evil refuge!" [Al-Nisa:115]

Al-Shafi -Rahimahu Allah- said: Allah -tala- would not punish him (i.e one who rejects the consensus of ummah) with fire for being different to the believers unless it is compulsory (i.e for him to follow the consensus of the ummah). [Siyar Alam Al-Nubala]

As I told you, the belief that Ali is the fourth Khalif is mentioned by the Imams in the books of creed, as a matter of creed, it is not simply an opinion of fiqh. Whoever believes otherwise has chosen to believe contrary to Ahlul Sunnah in that aspect, and has become of Ahlul Bida' in that particular aspect.

Secondly, the Khilafate of any Khalif is not established by the hadith of the Prophet because the Prophet did not list the hundreds of Khalifas who came after him by their name. This is a Rafidi belief and not a Sunni belief

The Khilafte of the Khalif is contracted by either the bai'ah of Ahlul Hal wal Aqd, or the nomination of the previous Imam that is accepted by the people and bai'ah given accordingly.

The Khilafah was contracted to Abu Bakr with those who were in the Saqifah (courtyard) of Banu Sa'edah. Not all the Sahabah attended the meeting in the Saqifah, while all the Sahabah are Ahl Hal wa 'aqd. Also some of the Sahabah were not in Madina when the Prophet died and they were not asked or consulted. Furthermore, in the first six months of his Khilafa' Banu Hashim , some of Banu Umaiya and other companions such as Al-Zubair and Saad Ibn Ubada did not give bai'ah to him.

Also the Khilafah of Yazid is valid even though Ibn Umar (at the beggining) , Al-Hussain, and other companions did not give him bai'aih.

Also the Khilafah of Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair is valid even though the people of Syria did not give him bai'iah.

Thirdly, the fatwa of Imam Ahmad is not only based on the hadith of Safinah as I have already mentioned.

Fourthly, Safinah is not the only companion who narrated this hadith. This hadith was also narrated by Muad Ibn Jabal and Abu Bakrah. It is also supported by the hadith of Samura Ibn Jundub which lists the four Khalifs: a man said: O Messenger of Allah I have seen a bucket descended from the sky and Abu Bakr came and took its ropes and drank from it, so he drank weakly, and then Umar came and took its ropes and drank till he was full, and then Uthman came and took drank from it till he was full, and then Ali came and took its rope and it is jerked from him and some of it was poured on him [Narrated by Ahmad and Abu Dawud]

That Ali is not listed in some hadiths does not mean he is not Khalif, just as in some hadiths the Prophet only mentions Abu Bakr and Umar and not Uthman e.g: "Follow the two after me Abu Bakr and Umar" . This does not mean that Uthman is not Khalifah.

As for your speculations against the hadith:

That the majority of the companions did not know this hadith does not mean it is not authentic. There are many authentic hadiths not known by the majority if companions, and only narrated to us by one or two companions.

Secondly, even if it was known to some of them, there is immediate relation between the thirty years and the Caliphate of Ali at their time. It is only apparent to us after the thirty years past. Before the thirty years ended there was no means to know that this hadith referred to Ali or some other. We find that Al-Zubair was reminded of the hadith where the Prophet told him he would fight Ali while oppressing him, yet this does not mean that this hadith is not authentic simply because Al-Zubair was involved in Al-Jamal at the beginning!! But when he remembered he left the scene.

Also, The baya' to Ali , unlike his predecessors, happened during great strife with the killers of Uthman surrounding him and trying to force people to give baya' to him. He himself was very hesitant to undertake this great task but finally had to step up otherwise the ummah will be in chaos. May Allah be pleased with him.

Thirdly, even if they believe that Ali is the rightly guided Caliph, this does not mean that he is infallible to them. Obedience to Caliph is only in what is Maroof (good by Shariah), and the wars that happened between the companions and the killing between Muslims were all Fitnah, and they have related many narrations during Fitnah not to carry the sword and not to participate, so the order of the Prophet would take precedence over that of his Caliph.

Fourthly, many a companion regretted not joining Ali ibn Abi Talib such as Ibn Umar who did not regret anything as much as he regretted not joining Ali as he said on his death bed. He only realized that after the incident of Khawarij where the Hadith of the Prophet explicitly mentioned that whoever kills them is closest to the truth. Aisha regretted going out to Jamal and showed so much anguish at her death bed for this. Khuzaymah Ibn Thabit did not join Ali until Ammar was killed, and then he realized Muawiya's group oppressed Ali because of the hadith of the Prophet : " The oppressing faction will kill Ammar" , so he joined Ali and fought until he died.

Fifthly, the actions of Safinah at the time of the Fitnah, is not mentioned. One cannot decisively say that he was with Ali's army , or with Ahlul Jamal's army , or Ahlu Siffin or with the faction that isolated themselves from the Fitnah. So to build your theory that he isolated himself is baseless, and authentic hadiths are not refuted by such speculations.

As for what Muhib-ul-deen Al-Khateeb has said, then with all due respect to him he is not a scholar of hadith. The renowned scholars of hadtih have all authenticated this hadith such as Al-Tirmithi, Ibn Hiban, Ibn Hajar, Ibn Katheer, Al-Dhahabi, Al-Haythami and others.

As I said, Safinah is not the only one who narrated this hadith.

Also, the dispute amongst the scholars regarding Saeed Ibn Jamhan cannot be used to rule out this narration. As you have said some said he was thiqqa. The conclusion of Ibn Hajar is that he is Sadooq (truthful) and has some narrations only narrated by him.

---

Allahu Aalim

SamiribnZafarKhan
23-11-2004, 03:38 AM
Um, when I said, "And how would this be incorrect? In my opinion, it makes sense historically speaking. After his Khilafah, there was kingship; this is not Khilafah."

I was not implying at all that Ali's (RAA) Caliphate was not Khilafah; not at all. I should of been clear. So take that out of your minds.

All I'm saying is, and history is a witness to this, the sects slowly started to emerge at the end... and then after Ali (RAA), at Mu`awiya's time, yes, that is when we declined.

No need to quote a million sayings; nobody on this thread is saying Ali's (RAA) Khilafah was not Khilafah.

Anyhow, now that we got that fixed, I will go into the Dr. Israr Ahmad's Ijazah... The following is an Email I received from Shaykh Omar Baloch:

Assalam Alaikum,

All scholars are linked back to the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam). In the case of Dr. Israr he has written a book in which he claims he is holding on to the legacy of Shah Walli Ullah, who is well known to have chain back to the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam).

Having said that, I don't think having ijazah or not having ijazah has anything to do with authenticity. There is no hadith or ayah of the Qur’an that establishes such a fact. Moreover, many great scholars of the deen, like Imam Ghazali or Imam Nawawi, never claimed such a link.

Those who are following the teaching of Qur’an, Sunnah, Ijmah of the Sahabah, and Mujadids of each century will, insha Allah, positively contribute to the deen regardless of who they are.

Also, with all the scholars with ijazah's that are present in the world... does one expect a miracle from them? I have studied with many teachers with ijazah's, and met many more, they are like normal humans, with the same normal flaws. Having such a chain, may add responsibilities on their shoulders but does not make them special in any way.

The role of ijazah is to preserve the oral tradition of Islam. The ijazah is a system by which tradition is preserved. However, this does not mean, the people involved in preserving the deen will also bringing its solutions or that they have a better understanding. We have seen this in our history many times. People like Abu Hassan Ashari come from outside the main stream to advance the deen. In the same way, the six muhadith
are all non arabs who took Islam from an oral tradition to a written tradition. Simply put the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam) said, "Whoever Allah wants good for, Allah gives him the understanding of the Deen". The Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam) also said, "Convey to others, it may be that to those who this is conveyed will understand it better" ...so the people who preserve the deen don't necessarily have a better understanding what they are conveying as the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam) has pointed out. So ijazah does not give solutions, it only preserves the Deen. Also, the call to work for Islam is for all Muslims and the call for Muslims to join hands to fix our situation is to all Muslims. We don't believe in priesthood, in that you have to have this or that qualification to work the deen. We in Islam never become scholars; we are always students of knowledge.

Second to last point is an example to demonstrate my point about understanding. A person who knows the Tafseer of Qur’an, in terms of preservation of the historical background will not understand the ayat regarding the new sciences that have emerged. In the same way, when looking at the seerah, a scholar who understand the details of the background of the seerah in its proper historical context, may not be able
relate the seerah to modern day events and come out with solutions.

Lastly, this why there has always been a difference in Islam between the Fuqaha and Muhaditheen. The muhaditheen have always been more concerned with preservation of tradition, and the fuqaha have been interested in understanding the practical of the tradition in the context that they live. This why there are three elements to practical guidance:

(1) Fiqh nass (understanding of the text)
(2) Fiqh waqiyah (understanding of the situation)
(3) Fiqh uliyaat (understanding of the priorities in the light of the text and situation)

Preservation of knowledge or ijazah fills one of them. Unfortunately too many scholars with ijazaha are not willing to pursue that other two dimensions of knowledge.

Omar Baloch

SamiribnZafarKhan
23-11-2004, 03:51 AM
I don't know Abu Jafar Hanbali but as a former supporter of similiar group {IJT, Dr. Israr was one of it's earliest amirs} i must say people should not refer to Dr. Israr's tafaseer. Here are some of Dr.Israr's sources for his Tafseer of the Quraan, he cites four souces of inspiration:

Firstly, if you know Dr. Israr, he clearly states he is not doing tafseer of Qur'an; rather, more like Tafheem.


Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind Maulana Mahmood Hasan Deobandi rahimahullah and Allaamah Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani rahimahullah

Iqbal and Dr. Rafi' ud Deen

Abul Kalaam Azad and Maududi

Faraahi and his student Islaahi

You missed a biggi. You missed Shah Walli Ullah.


Now the last two are modernist non-scholars, products of the Aligarh ideology, deniers of many necessities of the deen like rajm for the married zani, and that the murtadd is to be killed and that Eesa `alyhissalaam is alive and will decend and deniers of most ahadeeth. Abul Kalaam Azad, Maududi and Iqbal also tried similarly to "re-interpret Islam" though they weren't as bad as Faraahi and his students. Dr. Rafiuddeen is one of those Sir Syed type characters who tried to "reconcile Islam with science"

"Re-interpret Islam", brother, do you even know what they were trying to do? They were trying to revive Islam as a Deen and not keep it as a Religion, like a lot of Scholars today, unfortunately. In short, they were trying to take the minds of the Muslim Ummah out of the muck of Western Thought (which had degraded Islam to a simple 'religion' like Christianity and even pushed for Secularism in Islamic Thought).

Tell me, what is wrong with this?

salman
23-11-2004, 04:35 AM
Salamu Alaikum

So he doesnt have Ijzah - case closed bro. There is a vast difference between Imam Nawawi and Dr. Israr and yes Imam Nawawis shuyukh did have chains going back to the Prophet as did the Hanafis and other major Ulema of Ahly Sunnah. Certainly, one can forbid wrong and enjoin good without Ijazah but he is not an authority in the Islamic sciences.

As for "what is wrong in this" if they deny that which is fundamentally established then rejecting it is Kuffar by Ijma. This includes Rajm. Whereas i will not speak out against Dr. Israr, i would be hesitant to accept his claims to scholarship without scholarly Ijazahs.

Wallahu A'lam

Usman
23-11-2004, 12:37 PM
Firstly, if you know Dr. Israr, he clearly states he is not doing tafseer of Qur'an; rather, more like Tafheem.

Dear brother, SamiribnZafarKhan,
are you aware, that Abu Aala Maudoodi said the same? are you aware, that his "Tafheemul Qur'an" is said to be a "Tafseer" by the Jamaatis? are you aware that his "Tafheemul Qur'an" can better be called "Tafseer Bir Rayi"? or rather "Tahreeful Qur'an"?

Let me cite an example from his "Tafheem" :

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/8455/sur-nasr.jpg

I've always wanted to know, what "Kami Kotahi"(mistakes) or "Bhool Chook"(forgetting) in transferring Allah's deen to the people, you could expect from Rasoolullah(SallAllahu Alaihi wasallam)???

This is a very simple, and not very questionable reference, from "Tough'him' All-Qur'an" Vol6 , Surah Nasr ... I've posted. Maudoodi didn't even leave the Prophets(Alaihimus Salaam), and counted their mistakes , rather , "sins" under the veil of "Human Weaknesses".
Here is another reference. In his infamous book , which he wrote to get the salutation of "AYATULLAH" from Shias, Maudoodi accuses Syyedna Amir Muaviya (Radhi Allahu Anh) of (Nauzubillah , Nauzubillah) preparing false witnesses against Syyedna Ali (Radhi Allahu Anh), :
http://img6.exs.cx/img6/7506/jhootay-gawah.jpg

Brother, this is where most of the people end up, when they do "Tafheem" of Qur'an.
Therefore, even ask Sheikh Omar Baloch, that what is his very own lineage?? The proofs he gave, was irrelevant, and even a person with minimal knowledge of Usool-Hadith, knows what is the importance of lineage in Islam. A single gap can make the Hadith from Marfoo, to Mursel etc. etc. This means that lineage is certainly a thing of vile importance.

JazakAllah, Wassalaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

Muawiyah
23-11-2004, 01:57 PM
Dr. Israr he has written a book in which he claims he is holding on to the legacy of Shah Walli Ullah

Just a comment on that bro, that "legacy of Shah Walli Ullah" is also from Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi's writings were he has analyzed Shah Waliullah, Sayyid Ahmad Shaheed and Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind rahimahumullah as revolutionaries in the light of Marx's theories and not the ideas of Hadhrat Shah Waliullah rahimahullah.

Also the four sources for tafseer is from Dr. Israr's own book Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 24.

Also ideas like what you said about "Deen and not a religion" are totally new-fangled concepts created by Maududi, Dr.. Israr also ascribes to them, he says: "When Islam is ghaalib it's a Deen and when it is maghloob it becomes a religion" {Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 186} according to this ideology the people whose sphere is not politics, they may be doing tadrees or tabligh for example, are not following or serving the Deen. That's not correct, the Deen covers many areas `aqaid, `ibaadaat, mu'amlaat, aadaab, the people teaching `aqaid are teaching the Deen and the ones teaching `Ibaadaat are also teaching the Deen...

muslim786
23-11-2004, 05:53 PM
Just a comment on that bro, that "legacy of Shah Walli Ullah" is also from Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi's writings were he has analyzed Shah Waliullah, Sayyid Ahmad Shaheed and Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind rahimahumullah as revolutionaries in the light of Marx's theories and not the ideas of Hadhrat Shah Waliullah rahimahullah.

Also the four sources for tafseer is from Dr. Israr's own book Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 24.

Also ideas like what you said about "Deen and not a religion" are totally new-fangled concepts created by Maududi, Dr.. Israr also ascribes to them, he says: "When Islam is ghaalib it's a Deen and when it is maghloob it becomes a religion" {Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 186} according to this ideology the people whose sphere is not politics, they may be doing tadrees or tabligh for example, are not following or serving the Deen. That's not correct, the Deen covers many areas `aqaid, `ibaadaat, mu'amlaat, aadaab, the people teaching `aqaid are teaching the Deen and the ones teaching `Ibaadaat are also teaching the Deen...

Thanks Sidi Shahib, hopefully this should help people understand the dangers brought into Islam by Mauwdudi and his mates. People should remember is Islam is the solution for everything, you can't take things out of it. Political theory, economic theory and so on should all be driven by Islam.

SamiribnZafarKhan
23-11-2004, 07:08 PM
Usman, your argument is still baseless and weak. DOES DR. ISRAR AHMAD SAY ANY OF THAT STUFF???? Yes, I agree, Maududi made mistakes, and I believe Dr. Israr even testifies to this. You can say a million things about Maududi and not one is something that Dr.Israr follows.


Just a comment on that bro, that "legacy of Shah Walli Ullah" is also from Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi's writings were he has analyzed Shah Waliullah, Sayyid Ahmad Shaheed and Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hind rahimahumullah as revolutionaries in the light of Marx's theories and not the ideas of Hadhrat Shah Waliullah rahimahullah.

Also the four sources for tafseer is from Dr. Israr's own book Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 24.

Also ideas like what you said about "Deen and not a religion" are totally new-fangled concepts created by Maududi, Dr.. Israr also ascribes to them, he says: "When Islam is ghaalib it's a Deen and when it is maghloob it becomes a religion" {Jama'at-i-Shaykh ul Hind aur Tehreek-i-Islaami page 186} according to this ideology the people whose sphere is not politics, they may be doing tadrees or tabligh for example, are not following or serving the Deen. That's not correct, the Deen covers many areas `aqaid, `ibaadaat, mu'amlaat, aadaab, the people teaching `aqaid are teaching the Deen and the ones teaching `Ibaadaat are also teaching the Deen...

Brother, what you are referring to is all the aspects of the madhab of Islam. What I am saying is that Islam is NOT ONLY a madhab but also a Deen. And if you cannot figure out the difference between madhab and Deen then there is a very serious problem; as a result of the Western colonialism...

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, however, these people who revived Islam as a Deen and not a madhab (which was already overly emphasized by westerners and our very own ulama) deserve the biggest credit. We lost our state, and now we are taking the steps in bringing it back, inshAllah. And if you only hold on to the madhab part of Islam, and only arguing about madhab with each other, then this is not the path to take to establish Islam.

By the way, it is part of our aqeedah to reject taghoot, is it not? Are not the systems we live under systems of taghoot? With what will we replace these systems of injustice? Communism? Shirk? Kufr? or Tawheed (i.e., Al Islam)? Simple question.

Anyways, the following is another Email of Omar Baloch:

Assalam Aalikum,

Okay fine give me one ayah or one hadith, explaining the importance of ijazah...case closed. If one considers ijazah to be the "certificate" or degree of Islam, then ones mind is has already been overcomes with western concepts. Ijazah is one of the material aspects of teaching our deen. Concepts like creating a class of a people who do X specialization, is a western concept. This is how groups try to control the masses.

Ijazah was only one of the many ways knowledge was transferred. As you know the Ulamah, the Ulamah you mention, could you name a few that have written on this topic...who were from different places used different methods of transformation of knowledge.

Ijzah is only one of them. Another very important way was by sitting in the halaqaat, and getting the mere approval of wisdom and knowledge of the sheikh, without anything written, as was in the case of Abu Hanifah himself. Second, The ulamah who have written on this topic (and I dare you to mention one book on this topic... its incredible when people who have no knowledge talk like they actually understand an issue). What is even funnier, while claiming to protect and follow the Ulamah, they have no respect for the Ulamah that don't belong to their group. If I am a graduate of al azhar, which is the oldest Islamic institute, gives no ijazah's, but what they call shahadah's...so all the ulamah of azhar who have no ijazah's but shahada's, I guess to my friend are not authentic.

All the madressa's in the world don't run on ijazah's they run school method like azhar.

As for ijazah being for preservation or understanding....again the system of ijazah was used among two groups, muhathiseen, and Quraa of Qur’an mostly, that was for preservation of the deen... and that was its most important role. Second, scholars started to give ijazah for teaching their own books, this included understanding, however was much less important as a historical fact. The fuqahah most did not have ijazah's.

Your point about Imam Nawawi does not stand, having teachers with ijazah's is not the same as having oneself. If it does, that Dr. Israr Ahmed in the same historical position as Imam Nawawi...since Mualana Islahi and Maulana Farhahi, both had traditional background, with teachers going back to the Shah Walli Ullah.

Can and does Allah give people understanding of the Deen without Ijazah's? Yes. Second, this is not a personality contest, the bottom line should be who has the evidence from the text. Please refer to me the Islamic texts from the Qur’an, sunnah, from the Ulamah that claim, ijazah is part of our deen?

Ulamah who have written on the topic of "Anaser khalood ad deen" "elements of preservation of the deen" they don't include ijazah's in it. An example of this could be writings of Imam Ghazali of the past, Imam Muhammad Ghazali, Yusuf Qardawi, Sheikh Safar Hawali, Dr. Israr Ahmed, Shiekh Salah Sultan, etc. Please name the Ulamah on your side for the argument? Don't live in a fools paradise.

The next communication should be over the phone, otherwise, until you provide me evidence, the case is closed. Please, beware of trying to hijack the deen for one group or another, the deen is not a property that belongs to you or me. Carefully, ponder over what you are saying, and don't follow slogans you hear out of the blue. No one has a claim over Islam. Not you, not me, not Dr. Israr Ahmed, not some one with ijazah....the claim is only based on evidence brought forth. I will be waiting to hear the names of the Ulamah.... as a brotherly advice, I advise you to read the books series called "Saviors of the Islamic Spirit" by Abu Hassan Nadwi. Abu Hassan Nadwi, who is in my opinion the greatest traditional scholar of this century, who has multiple ijazah's, has his own institutes, who is equally recognized by the ulamah of arabs and non arabs, spent his life, teaching the history of the revivers of Islam. Please read this book, and see what he has to say on this issue....the series is about 5 volumes. Many of your questions will be answered.

Omar Baloch

muslim786
23-11-2004, 07:19 PM
I would like to know what the Dr thinks about the madhabs of fiqh in islam, and also the schools of tassawuf. also what is his exact educational background in Islam.

SamiribnZafarKhan
23-11-2004, 07:27 PM
I would like to know what the Dr thinks about the madhabs of fiqh in islam, and also the schools of tassawuf. also what is his exact educational background in Islam.

He's mostly Hanafi; however, whatever has more proof, he will take.

Regarding Tassawuf, he wrote a book on it; I have the english version and I have yet to read it. So I'll summarize for you once I finish it, inshAllah

EXACT educational background. I wouldn't know. But if you read his bio in the first post, it should be a starter.

muslim786
23-11-2004, 07:33 PM
He's mostly Hanafi; however, whatever has more proof, he will take.

Regarding Tassawuf, he wrote a book on it; I have the english version and I have yet to read it. So I'll summarize for you once I finish it, inshAllah

EXACT educational background. I wouldn't know. But if you read his bio in the first post, it should be a starter.

The madhab thing is worrying, who has given him the right to make itjehad?
This alone should make us not follow his words.

faqir
23-11-2004, 07:41 PM
Asalamu alaykum Akhi samar,

Does Dr. Israr have authorization (ijazah) through a continuous line of transmission (isnad) back to the Prophet?

If so, could you post the details of the teachers he has studied the Islamic sciences with who have given him this authorisation?

JazakAllah khair.



So the answer to my question above is No?!?!

Enough said.

faqir
23-11-2004, 07:43 PM
http://albalagh.net/qa/0025.shtml


http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-18042283

Muawiyah
23-11-2004, 08:01 PM
"since Mualana Islahi and Maulana Farhahi, both had traditional background"

As far as I know Farahi was an Aligarhi, Islahi was a student of Farahi. The alleged traditional background, even if it's true, does not do them any good since they denied the necessities of the Deen.

Usman
23-11-2004, 09:22 PM
Ok, here's something for Mr.Baloch,


Concepts like creating a class of a people who do X specialization, is a western concept. This is how groups try to control the masses.

Ijazah was only one of the many ways knowledge was transferred. As you know the Ulamah, the Ulamah you mention, could you name a few that have written on this topic...who were from different places used different methods of transformation of knowledge.

Ijzah is only one of them. Another very important way was by sitting in the halaqaat, and getting the mere approval of wisdom and knowledge of the sheikh, without anything written, as was in the case of Abu Hanifah himself. Second, The ulamah who have written on this topic (and I dare you to mention one book on this topic... its incredible when people who have no knowledge talk like they actually understand an issue). What is even funnier, while claiming to protect and follow the Ulamah, they have no respect for the Ulamah that don't belong to their group. If I am a graduate of al azhar, which is the oldest Islamic institute, gives no ijazah's, but what they call shahadah's...so all the ulamah of azhar who have no ijazah's but shahada's, I guess to my friend are not authentic.

All the madressa's in the world don't run on ijazah's they run school method like azhar.

As for ijazah being for preservation or understanding....again the system of ijazah was used among two groups, muhathiseen, and Quraa of Qur’an mostly, that was for preservation of the deen... and that was its most important role. Second, scholars started to give ijazah for teaching their own books, this included understanding, however was much less important as a historical fact. The fuqahah most did not have ijazah's.

Brother Faqir has mentioned the URL already,
The Need for Ijazah (http://albalagh.net/qa/0025.shtml)

e.g
10.Shaykh Muhammad Awwamah (an unparalleled Muhaddith of these times) mentions beautifully in his book, 'Adabul Ikhtilaf', 'They (the Ulama) never used to pay attention to one who did not have any Ustadh (teacher), neither would they consider such a person worthy of even being spoken to due to him being prone to mistakes.' He further says, 'Qadi Iyad and others have narrated that when Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was requested by the ruler of his time (al-Mu'tasim) to discuss a certain matter with ibn Abi Du'ad, he (Imam Ahmad) turned his face away and said, 'How can I discuss with such a person whom I have never seen at the door of any Alim ever!' (Ibid pg.144)

also

5. Furthermore, during the era of the Tabi'een, whenever anyone would claim to have any knowledge, he would be questioned as to which person he has acquired that bit of knowledge from. (Muslim)

6. Hafiz Khateeb al-Baghdadi (RA), the famous Muhaddith of the fifth century, states in his book, 'Taqyidul Ilm' (pg.61), 'Many scholars of the classical times had - at the time of death - either destroyed his book himself or instructed so. This was due to the fear that it may end up in the hands of ignorant ones who would not understand its verdicts and would only take the apparent meanings there from.' He thereafter narrated several incidents of the classical scholars who had done so. From among them were: Imam Abeda al-Salmani, Imam Shu'bah ibn Hajjaaj, Imam Abu Qilabah and Imam Eesa ibn Yunus. (Ibid pgs.61-62)


The next communication should be over the phone, otherwise, until you provide me evidence, the case is closed. Please, beware of trying to hijack the deen for one group or another, the deen is not a property that belongs to you or me. Carefully, ponder over what you are saying, and don't follow slogans you hear out of the blue. No one has a claim over Islam. Not you, not me, not Dr. Israr Ahmed, not some one with ijazah....the claim is only based on evidence brought forth. I will be waiting to hear the names of the Ulamah

well, I was gonna give you the name of Scholars like Maulana Dr.Manzoor Ahmed Mengal (Damat Barakatuhum)[ph.d Ummul Qura, KSA], or even the PHONE number of Sheikhul Hadeeth Syyedi Moulana Saleemullah Khan Sahib (Damat Barakatuhumul Aalia, wa Hafizahullah), the president of The Islamic Madrassa Board, Pakistan.... or Muhaddithul Asr Abu-Zahid Muhammad Sarfaraz Khan Sahib (Damat Barakatuhum), maybe Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib (damat barakatuhum), who went far and wide, searching for scholars of high rank, to get IJAZAH of Hadeeth. But then again, I came to realize :

'Qadi Iyad and others have narrated that when Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was requested by the ruler of his time (al-Mu'tasim) to discuss a certain matter with ibn Abi Du'ad, he (Imam Ahmad) turned his face away and said, 'How can I discuss with such a person whom I have never seen at the door of any Alim ever!'

So , you'll just waste their time. I myself am a student of Sheikh Doctor Maulana Manzoor Ahmed Mengal (Damat Barakatuhum), but I don't have the Ijazah from him. Just consulting the scholars is not sufficient, they should trust you, that you are qualified enough to extend their ilm. It seems that no qualified aalim has yet , trusted Dr.Israr Ahmed.... case re-closed.....

An yeah, upon this "case closed " thing. This kind of reply is usually when people are trying to "debate". Remember, being Muslims, and the followers of truth, we should not just defend our "AALIM", even if he goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah , rather, follow what is the right path.

Since Dr. sahib does not have ijazah from any "Hanafi" aalim yet, it's strange that he is trying to do ijtehaad over the madhahib. I, personally , think that Dr. Sahib has started to walk the path of Maudoodi Mal'oon. May Allah protect him from that.

No hard feelings, but if you know the right, and still would defend your "doctor", then I beleive, Tanzeem-e-Islami will soon turn up to be like Jamaat-Maudoodi, or even MQM.

Yaseen
23-11-2004, 11:10 PM
No hard feelings, but if you know the right, and still would defend your "doctor", then I beleive, Tanzeem-e-Islami will soon turn up to be like Jamaat-Maudoodi, or even MQM.
Out of interest bro what is MQM

Jazakallah

faqir
23-11-2004, 11:13 PM
mamoolee qeeray maqoray?

[joke]

Muhajir Qaumi Movement?

Usman
24-11-2004, 09:45 AM
MQM is a political party, led by Altaf Hussain , whos'e mother was barelvi, and father, a Shia. He publicized himself as a MUHAJIR(urdu speaking migrant from India), and raised against Sindhis, Punjabis, and ofcourse the Pushtoons. In 1990, his "Muhajir Qaumi Movement" , marked the housed of sindhis in Karachi, and they were threatened to either leave karachi, or die. Now , this very same MQM has become "Muttahida Qaumi Movement". Today they say "Sindhi Muhajir bhai bhai",just to establish their Gorvermnet in the Sindh Province of Pakistan. My relatives had to take assylum in other countries, because they tortured the Sindhis upon the order of Altaf.

This is what I meant, that like Jamaatis can call Syyedna Amir Muaviya (RAA) wrong,but will not say Maudoodi was a Mal'oon, and MQM people can say "Jiyay sindh", Let's pray to Allah that followers of Dr.Israr Ahmed Sahib may not turn something like them.

Azzam
24-11-2004, 11:11 PM
Akhi Samir,

You are confusing a couple of things.

An ijazah does not mean that the holder of such is knowledgeable in absolute terms. It just means he has been checked and approved by another authority in the discipline. Therefore, he is what we can say 'credible', or fully recognize to specialize in the particular area.

This system is very important because knowledge runs upon this system and always has.

However, just because someone has an ijazah does not mean they will never be wrong. And just because someone does not have ijazah does not mean he will never be right.

From the behaviour of Muslims its quite hypocritical for many to ask for ijazahs as if they would change their opinions and listen to someone just based on that.

For example. Sheikh Umar Abdur Rahmaan, may Allah preserve him and free him, has multiple ijazahs much more than many people. But many Muslims dont follow him. They never listen to his words about Jihad and nor do they take from his movement either. Nor do they work to free him. They have forgotten him, and left him to the hands of the Kuffar.

Therefore things must be in perspective.

As for Israr Ahmed then I do not know much about him. I have heard he is a follower of Mawdudi. As for Mawdudi then he has written many good articles and books. They are good to inspire people. And they put many things into perspective.

However, I do like Mawdudi and Syed Qutb a lot. If anyone thinks they are infallible then they are wrong. They cannot be infallible and they have made certain mistakes. To them and the Ikhwan movement it was an idea that shias should be united with sunnis to repel Kufr in totally.

That was the original ikhwani belief and now different factions have different ideas about that. Therefore, they tried to look at history a bit different than how our sunni ulema viewed them.

Therefore, they erred in some of what they said. There are also errors in Mawdudi's book of tafsir and so on.

But as I said earlier Mawdudi has written some good issues about Muslims in contemporary times so those are pretty good to give insight. So its good to take the good and leave the bad.

Sheikh Hamoud mentioned this about Syed Qutb when some of the vile people attacked this man. He answered by saying that he is human and can make mistakes, but he did much more good than bad and the bad is minimal, so we overlook his faults but stay clear of them and warn people about them. Rather than condemning the person.

For example, the works of Syed Qutb really helped the Jihad movement. This was mentioned by the Sheikh of Jihad in the 20th Century Abdullah Azzam himself as he said Syed Qutb had the most impact on him from reading his works.

Hamood
25-11-2004, 06:18 PM
He's mostly Hanafi; however, whatever has more proof, he will take.

Thats the salafi approach. .... this approach is nothing but misguidance. After 100's of years of traditional scholarship, what gives Dr. Israr the right to pick and choose what he thinks "has more proof". i.e. if what u'r saying about him is true.

SamiribnZafarKhan
27-11-2004, 04:55 AM
Thats the salafi approach. .... this approach is nothing but misguidance. After 100's of years of traditional scholarship, what gives Dr. Israr the right to pick and choose what he thinks "has more proof". i.e. if what u'r saying about him is true.

umm, who said it was salafi? Sheikh Nuh Hamim Keller in his Reliance of the Traveler supported this statement of "has more proof" with a fatwa from I believe Imam Shafi'i... someone correct me on which Sheikh... anyways, Sheikh Nuh is SUFI... so how do you answer this?

But I don't know if he has already "borrowed" from other schools of thoughts.

By the way, how is this misguidance (i'm not salafi btw)?

Usman
27-11-2004, 01:31 PM
But I don't know if he has already "borrowed" from other schools of thoughts.

By the way, how is this misguidance (i'm not salafi btw)?

Actually, it's because such things will lead to further "borrowing" from other Madhahib, and it's a fatwa, that finding "escape-routes" in deen is Haraam.

let me cite one or two examples :

a) Salaah : Fiqh Shafii says, blood flowing will not invalidate the wudhu, Fiqh Hanafi says it will. Then mr.Mujtahid will be saying "well! since all 4 are correct, I find a stronger daleel in fiqh Shafii"..... and....
b) Saum : Fiqh Shafii says , touching the wife will nullify the fast, Mr.Mujtahid touched the wife, and then? "Oh, there's no evidence, rather I find a better evidence in Fiqh hanafi, so my fast is OK".

eh.... is this following deen or a joke? This is what the scholars say. Moreover ,since there are people like Imam Razi, Allama Zamakhshiri, Ibn Jozi, Even Hafiz Ibn Hajr and Ibn Katheer(Rahimahumullah) they did mention several differences between the madhahib, but none of them ever said that they are not shafii, or Hanbali in this matter.

Mossy
27-11-2004, 01:43 PM
Imam Ahmed did on occasion recommend an individual to take from another school as he deemed the result more fitting for the situation.

And.. Um.. Touching the wife invalidates the fast? I thought it just invalidated the wudu..

Finding "escape-routes" is not necessarily haram.. For example, within a school there may be multiple positions - is it incumbent upon the individual to take the majority one and he is commiting haram if he is not? Eh, this has been discussed elsewhere..

With regards to the topic of the thread, Dr Israr is not qualified in the traditional sense to extrapolate from Qu'ran and Sunnah and teach this, that is clear. However, that does not mean there is no good that comes from what he says with regards to the political situation etc. The main caveat is that when he quotes something directly to do with religion and it perhaps does not fit in with your perception of the orthodoxy, you should look to his sources and see whether they follow the framework in which you yourself work. Same with most people today.

S'all good.

SamiribnZafarKhan
27-11-2004, 05:19 PM
Actually, it's because such things will lead to further "borrowing" from other Madhahib, and it's a fatwa, that finding "escape-routes" in deen is Haraam.

let me cite one or two examples :

a) Salaah : Fiqh Shafii says, blood flowing will not invalidate the wudhu, Fiqh Hanafi says it will. Then mr.Mujtahid will be saying "well! since all 4 are correct, I find a stronger daleel in fiqh Shafii"..... and....
b) Saum : Fiqh Shafii says , touching the wife will nullify the fast, Mr.Mujtahid touched the wife, and then? "Oh, there's no evidence, rather I find a better evidence in Fiqh hanafi, so my fast is OK".

eh.... is this following deen or a joke? This is what the scholars say. Moreover ,since there are people like Imam Razi, Allama Zamakhshiri, Ibn Jozi, Even Hafiz Ibn Hajr and Ibn Katheer(Rahimahumullah) they did mention several differences between the madhahib, but none of them ever said that they are not shafii, or Hanbali in this matter.

Um, nobody is saying that whatever is easier to follow should be followed. Rather, whatever has more DALEEL should be followed, even if it is harder to follow. Now answer my question again, how is following stronger daleel wrong?

faqir
27-11-2004, 05:20 PM
"stronger" daleel as determined by who?

A mujtahid.

Not you or Dr. Israr.

Hamood
27-11-2004, 07:07 PM
"stronger" daleel as determined by who?

A mujtahid.

Not you or Dr. Israr.

Exactly. Thats why we do taqlid of one of the 4 imams. A muqallid follows the sahih hadith and strongest daleel not the ghair-muqallid, they are misguided by their desires. As brother faqir said, who determines the stronger daleel? Thats why the ulema-e-haqq of today advise to follow one of the four schools completely, not partially and when you pick and choose what you think is the stronger daleel especially when you're not qualified to do so, you're following your desires.


"With regards to the topic of the thread, Dr Israr is not qualified in the traditional sense to extrapolate from Qu'ran and Sunnah and teach this, that is clear. However, that does not mean there is no good that comes from what he says with regards to the political situation etc. The main caveat is that when he quotes something directly to do with religion and it perhaps does not fit in with your perception of the orthodoxy, you should look to his sources and see whether they follow the framework in which you yourself work. Same with most people today."

I agree. And I think we can start by trying to stop ourselves from the useless practice of refutation, especially of figures like Dr. Israr or Syed Qutb. Its true they made mistakes, but refutations by unqualified non-scholars is not productive and thats what seems to be happening at this forum frequently.

Usman
27-11-2004, 07:55 PM
And.. Um.. Touching the wife invalidates the fast? I thought it just invalidated the wudu..

Finding "escape-routes" is not necessarily haram.. For example, within a school there may be multiple positions - is it incumbent upon the individual to take the majority one and he is commiting haram if he is not? Eh, this has been discussed elsewhere..
a) it's Wudhu
b) finding escape routes means, not looking upon the dalail, rather one's ease. This is indeed haraam, inshaAllah I'll bring the reference. It should be evident by now, this is why we dis-associate ourselves from the fitnah of salafism. A normal person , or even most scholars of today, can't even understand how a daleel is extracted form Ayaat and Ahadeeth.


Um, nobody is saying that whatever is easier to follow should be followed. Rather, whatever has more DALEEL should be followed, even if it is harder to follow. Now answer my question again, how is following stronger daleel wrong?

ok, then bring daleel and not naql of daleel. Over here, we're talking of Dr.Israr Ahmed, a person whose qualification in rules of Fiqh ,and Jurisprudic evidences explained by regular scholars is in question. How can a person consider himself to be qualified enough to extract the dalail directly from Qur'an and Sunnah?


I agree. And I think we can start by trying to stop ourselves from the useless practice of refutation, especially of figures like Dr. Israr or Syed Qutb. Its true they made mistakes, but refutations by unqualified non-scholars is not productive and thats what seems to be happening at this forum frequently.

Well bro, to some people just saying "Mufti Abu Lubabah said we should abstrain, as he makes mistakes", or "Sheikh Yousuf Ludhanvi Shaheed(rahimahullah) refuted him, was not sufficient. So this thread took a length....Anyway, everything seems to be quite clear by now .

SamiribnZafarKhan
27-11-2004, 08:50 PM
ok, then bring daleel and not naql of daleel. Over here, we're talking of Dr.Israr Ahmed, a person whose qualification in rules of Fiqh ,and Jurisprudic evidences explained by regular scholars is in question. How can a person consider himself to be qualified enough to extract the dalail directly from Qur'an and Sunnah?


You still don't get it. NOBODY, even Dr. Israr Ahmad himself said he is 'qualified' for so and so position. Does that mean he shuts up and does dhikr in the corner of the masjid for the rest of his life? That's what some of us, out of ignorance would do. If Dr. Israr said something totally against the creed of the Muslims, then yes, don't follow him; but he never has. So why in the world are you arguing?

Secondly, NOBODY said he is qualified in terms of fiqhi or jurisprudence stuff, he says it himself. He never passes out fatawas or talks about his opinions on certain fiqhi issues; simply because he knows himself that he is not qualified.

However, everyone is qualified to implement and spread the Qur'an; and everyone has to do it, sheikh or no sheikh.

And have you been reading the Emails of Sheikh Omar Baloch (he studied in Al Azhar and other places)? It seems you haven't, because you keep repeating the same thing and it goes in circles. Please re-read them. Having ijazah doesn't make you flawless; every sheikh will have flaws, nevertheless, every human being today has flaws. Someone can have ijazah and then the next day, he does shirk in the open; but hey, he has ijazah! This is complete stupidity and blind-following and THIS IS HARAM.

You are providing excuses upon excuses to not listen to Dr. Israr's thoughts which are derived originally from the explanations of Allah, the Prophet (saw) and the companions. Go listen to it and tell me if you find something wrong in his creed.

Dr. Israr's main call is what the Qur'an calls for: Tawheed. How do you go about this Tawheed? Do you keep it in your homes only? Do you only do some da'wah and that's it? The Qur'an tells us (very clearly), you have to work to establish this Tawheed, Iqamat ud Deen. Moreover, do you need ijazah to establish the Deen?... do you need ijazah to show that you extremely love Allah? Or do you need only actions coupled with pure intentions to show that you extremely love Allah? Nobody is saying Dr. Israr Ahmad is the Khalif.

If you disagree with Iqamat ud Deen, then as a brother from Tableeghi Jama'at once said, "You aren't really a Muslim [in the heart]." In other words, you really don't love Allah. Those believers that extremely love Allah, they want to share this love with others so that it may put peace and tranquility into their hearts; Islam came not for any one nation or country but for all of humanity. Many ayat support even this.

Usman
28-11-2004, 09:18 PM
You still don't get it. NOBODY, even Dr. Israr Ahmad himself said he is 'qualified' for so and so position. Does that mean he shuts up and does dhikr in the corner of the masjid for the rest of his life? That's what some of us, out of ignorance would do. If Dr. Israr said something totally against the creed of the Muslims, then yes, don't follow him; but he never has. So why in the world are you arguing?

Secondly, NOBODY said he is qualified in terms of fiqhi or jurisprudence stuff, he says it himself. He never passes out fatawas or talks about his opinions on certain fiqhi issues; simply because he knows himself that he is not qualified.

However, everyone is qualified to implement and spread the Qur'an; and everyone has to do it, sheikh or no sheikh.

And have you been reading the Emails of Sheikh Omar Baloch (he studied in Al Azhar and other places)? It seems you haven't, because you keep repeating the same thing and it goes in circles. Please re-read them. Having ijazah doesn't make you flawless; every sheikh will have flaws, nevertheless, every human being today has flaws. Someone can have ijazah and then the next day, he does shirk in the open; but hey, he has ijazah! This is complete stupidity and blind-following and THIS IS HARAM.

You are providing excuses upon excuses to not listen to Dr. Israr's thoughts which are derived originally from the explanations of Allah, the Prophet (saw) and the companions. Go listen to it and tell me if you find something wrong in his creed.

Dr. Israr's main call is what the Qur'an calls for: Tawheed. How do you go about this Tawheed? Do you keep it in your homes only? Do you only do some da'wah and that's it? The Qur'an tells us (very clearly), you have to work to establish this Tawheed, Iqamat ud Deen. Moreover, do you need ijazah to establish the Deen?... do you need ijazah to show that you extremely love Allah? Or do you need only actions coupled with pure intentions to show that you extremely love Allah? Nobody is saying Dr. Israr Ahmad is the Khalif.

If you disagree with Iqamat ud Deen, then as a brother from Tableeghi Jama'at once said, "You aren't really a Muslim [in the heart]." In other words, you really don't love Allah. Those believers that extremely love Allah, they want to share this love with others so that it may put peace and tranquility into their hearts; Islam came not for any one nation or country but for all of humanity. Many ayat support even this.

Don't be too cranky bro, and read carefully what you have written yourself.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said listening to Dr.Israr Ahmed's lectures is wrong. What I had said in the beginning was, that He is not qualified, which you have just accepted, in giving discources upon the tafseer of Qur'an. Recall, that you , yourself had mentioned he does "Tafheem", and is impressed by Abul Aala Maudoodi (Mal'oon), and I gave you a glimpse of Maudoodi's own "Tafheem".

Secondly, you said that Dr.Sahib is mostly hanafi, but when he finds better daleel from other sources, he takes them. So, this is the same thought , as many brothers have already mentioned, as the one of these so-called salafis; they are not qualified as well, they just look upon "Daleel" even if they are not qualified to even know the rules of extraction of daleel.

Finally, if you had a chance of reading my very own post on Hanbali Text Society, I mentioned to the brother over there as well, that Dr.Sahib said that there has to be some work done for khilafah, and in Pakistan, we're trying to do that on our part. I never said this was wrong.

Although, what I have been trying to tell everyone, and even yourself, is that , he is not qualified as a mufassir, not even as an aalim, so how does he go around, give lectures of Tafseer Qur'an. It was me , myself, who said that he's not a major "fitnah", but we must accept his shortcomings as well.

I hope this clears the point of view............
WasSalaam

coldfusion
07-12-2004, 04:28 AM
About Dr.Israr Ahmad
you can decide yourself about him just read this,
once on TV he was answering some questions, some one asked WHY IS PAYING SALAT WHILE YOU ARE DRUNK is not allowed ?
normally ullam-e-haq and quran both says it is now allowed beacause one dont know what he is doing.
Dr.Israr Ahmad said " we in pakistan are muslims but our language is not arabic is urdu and when we recite quran in arabic in namaz(salat) we dont know what we are reading"

according to him both conditions are same.
can you peoples think he is a aalim
i dont think so

when drunk you dont know what you are doing and drinking alchol or SHARAB is haram totally.
while one is reading quran in arabic , he knows he is reading Quran, he is not singing
and he knows that he is praying doin salat not dancing.

Dr.Israr ahmad is not a aalim
dont follow person like these they will inshAllha misguide you.
these days on TV only those people are presented who are not TRUE aalim-e-haq and they are used for making muslims modrate, this is a game of making muslims libral or modrate like other religeons. according to my knowledg JEWS are behind the scene.

if we muslims are fundementalists , this does not mean we are extremists.
this means we are still holding the islam as Muhammad (SAW) taught AlhamdulilAh and have only the true religeon, the way of life given by Allha the Only GOD.

when peoples get sick they go to doctor, when they got problem regarding a computer they go to hardware engineer , but why when they want to know something about islam they dont go to a AALIM ?
they try to learn it themself, and in result peoples like Dr.Israr Ahmad are born.
my personal advise is....
follow islam in way as Muhammad SAW has teach us and sahaba has practice it.
dont try to find escap from what Allha has order, better way is TAUBA
Allha is Greatest Forgiver.


Allha Knows Better - Salam on all muslims

SamiribnZafarKhan
07-12-2004, 05:48 PM
About Dr.Israr Ahmad
you can decide yourself about him just read this,
once on TV he was answering some questions, some one asked WHY IS PAYING SALAT WHILE YOU ARE DRUNK is not allowed ?
normally ullam-e-haq and quran both says it is now allowed beacause one dont know what he is doing.
Dr.Israr Ahmad said " we in pakistan are muslims but our language is not arabic is urdu and when we recite quran in arabic in namaz(salat) we dont know what we are reading"

according to him both conditions are same.
can you peoples think he is a aalim
i dont think so

when drunk you dont know what you are doing and drinking alchol or SHARAB is haram totally.
while one is reading quran in arabic , he knows he is reading Quran, he is not singing
and he knows that he is praying doin salat not dancing.

Dr.Israr ahmad is not a aalim
dont follow person like these they will inshAllha misguide you.
these days on TV only those people are presented who are not TRUE aalim-e-haq and they are used for making muslims modrate, this is a game of making muslims libral or modrate like other religeons. according to my knowledg JEWS are behind the scene.

if we muslims are fundementalists , this does not mean we are extremists.
this means we are still holding the islam as Muhammad (SAW) taught AlhamdulilAh and have only the true religeon, the way of life given by Allha the Only GOD.

when peoples get sick they go to doctor, when they got problem regarding a computer they go to hardware engineer , but why when they want to know something about islam they dont go to a AALIM ?
they try to learn it themself, and in result peoples like Dr.Israr Ahmad are born.
my personal advise is....
follow islam in way as Muhammad SAW has teach us and sahaba has practice it.
dont try to find escap from what Allha has order, better way is TAUBA
Allha is Greatest Forgiver.


Allha Knows Better - Salam on all muslims

Salam,

Um, that's something I won't believe because Dr. Israr has already explained this issue in his Dura Tarjumal Qur'an. You either misunderstood the question or misunderstood his answer.

Or you heard this news and decided to believe in it without confirming it.

Dr. Israr isn't stupid; he knows what he's saying.

And yes, he hasn't studied in some madrassa for years upon years, and he even claims he IS NOT an 'alim, but he still spreading the understanding and wisdom of the Qur'an because the Prophet (saw) said, "The best amongst you are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it."

He has understood the Qur'an well, from what I know. Sure, he is not perfect, and neither is any of the ulema; everyone has flaws. So as Mus'ab bin Umair (ra) once said to Usayd bin Khayr (ra) when Usayd was a non-Muslim, "Listen to what I have to say; if you like it, then accept, if not, then I will leave." How many of you ACTUALLY listened to his Dura Tarjumal Qur'an? And you already bash him; that is doing injustice to Dr. Israr.

And its sad to even say, a few of the scholars in Pakistan do the same. Does that mean you follow their footsteps in making this mistake?

I've even spoke to one mufti (Mufti Etashaab al Haqq) that is visiting our city for a week (he's from Pakistan). And he did some 8-9 year 'Alim course in some madrassa of Pakistan. He said Dr. Israr has come numerous times to their madrassa to give lectures on Qur'an and other topics. Did they disagree with him? Hardly. In fact, other mufti's of that madrassa gave their bai'yah to him... and this man is not even a mufti and he's teaching them Qur'an...

I asked the Mufti, "Well Dr. Israr hasn't been traditionally trained through some madrassa..." and the mufti said, "You are right, he even says 'I am not a scholar', but his knowledge is amazing!"

Listen to his stuff. Stop being a brat.

Also, just to clear up, to be an Ameer of a jama'ah doesn't mean you have to be a Mufti. No, the position for becoming an Ameer has other qualities.

Usman, this is not a "salafi thing" that you go to another madhab for a ruling which you find that has more daleel. I already told you, Sheikh Nuh says it is permissible and he quoted a Sheikh on this in his 'Reliance of the Traveler'. You have failed repeatedly to answer my question... (which was) what is wrong with following the stronger daleel? Show me proof from Qur'an and Sunnah that states 'following a stronger daleel is not permissible'. ....don't you realize how outrageous this sounds?

coldfusion
07-12-2004, 07:42 PM
Hazoor SAW said
i afraid of time when people start understanding Quran themself, beacause meaning of many things in Quran are known by Allha only"

what do you say about this. and im not misunderstood.
people who are presented on TV are for making muslims LIBRAL that was my point actually.

SamiribnZafarKhan
09-12-2004, 11:46 PM
Hazoor SAW said
i afraid of time when people start understanding Quran themself, beacause meaning of many things in Quran are known by Allha only"

Dude, go talk to Dr. Israr about this if you have a problem with his understanding of the Qur'an. Why are you complaining to me?


what do you say about this. and im not misunderstood.
people who are presented on TV are for making muslims LIBRAL that was my point actually.

You are "misunderstood". You don't bring any proof, so you are wrong. And everyone already knows here that Dr. Israr is not a "liberal", that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in my life. The man is calling for an Islamic Revolution to live and die purely for Allah by establishing His Deen and you call this "liberal"?

Brother, don't talk without knowledge. It will destroy your reputation.

Usman
10-12-2004, 05:43 AM
Dude, go talk to Dr. Israr about this if you have a problem with his understanding of the Qur'an. Why are you complaining to me?

Dude, stop supporting Dr.Israr Ahmed then, he's complainin because you were the first one to support him on the forum.

SamiribnZafarKhan
10-12-2004, 05:20 PM
Dude, stop supporting Dr.Israr Ahmed then, he's complainin because you were the first one to support him on the forum.

The brother didn't bring proof, so does that mean I follow him blindly? Surah Al Hujurat says you cannot.

What is even the point of this discussion.

I didn't ask anyone on this forum if Dr. Israr is qualified. I already know he isn't and everyone knows that he claims himself that he isn't.

Rather, what are your views on his thoughts (iqamat ud Deen, Tanzeem, non-violent Jihad etc. etc.)?

What are his views?

If you don't know, then don't comment. Don't even say he has no qualification, simply because you don't know what he says.

Nobody treats Dr. Israr as if he is an 'Alim; I don't know of one person that does that. We have shuyookh alhamdullilah (even in Tanzeem).

If you are not qualified, does that mean you shutup and let the Ummah continue in its humiliation?

Or do you attempt your best to reawaken the beast?

The majority of Muslims are unconscious hypocrites; hypocrites in the sense that they are blind to what is the source of all problems (i.e., Qur'an).

All we like to do is bash others because:
1. They don't have the credentials
2. "I" listen to more shuyookh than "he" does
3. "I" wear a Turban and "he" doesn't
4. "My" beard is longer than "his"
5. "I" grew up with a Shaykh
........and the list goes on.

The problem is arrogance and ignorance; when these two dangerous chemicals combine, you get what is called "Ghadabim minAllah" or the "Wrath of Allah".

Are we experiencing His wrath today? No doubt.

Want to get out?

Get the arrogance and ignorance out of your being.
Obtain love for each other as brothers and sisters in Islam.
Bite on firmly to your culture; the Sunnah.
Hold on tightly to your ideology; the Qur'an.
Now with all your might, shatter all forms of falsehood.

What is falsehood?
Look to Qur'an and Sunnah for the definition.

Batil...
Taghoot...
Shirk...
Kufr...
Haram...
Bid'ah...
Dhulm...

Ask yourself. Is Dr. Israr committing any one of these? No.

Personally, I feel credentials are neccessary today because of some people who think if you have them, then you are above everyone else; credentials give you a status unfortunately.

InshAllah, I will be taking Islamic courses/'Alim Courses for a number of years, and then I will return and say the same exact thing I have been saying all along about Dr. Israr.

Nobody in Tanzeem is saying the best way is to follow Dr. Israr Ahmad (i.e., by not being traditionally trained to become a scholar in its proper connotation).

Plus, Dr. Israr is too old and sick to even go and learn in the madrassah's for 6-9 years, he's almost 80. What is the point? He is going to come out saying the same thing about Qur'an and Sunnah and I wouldn't be surprised if he learned very little.

Mossy
10-12-2004, 05:27 PM
What is even the point of this discussion.

I'm inclined to agree..

I think sunniforum's view is moot. Some like his work, some don't. Some consider him an authority, some don't.

Shrug.

muslim786
10-12-2004, 05:37 PM
I'm inclined to agree..

I think sunniforum's view is moot. Some like his work, some don't. Some consider him an authority, some don't.

Shrug.

Assalamulikum Wa Rahmatulah,

I think its time to shut up shop mossy bhai. the thread has covered all possible ground on the matter. we now know the dr is knowledgable like many people, and like many knowledgable people he is not a proper islamic scholar with formal islamic training and ijaza, now what people want to do after knowing this is their own issue.

Usman
10-12-2004, 05:58 PM
What is falsehood?
Look to Qur'an and Sunnah for the definition.

Batil...
Taghoot...
Shirk...
Kufr...
Haram...
Bid'ah...
Dhulm...

Ask yourself. Is Dr. Israr committing any one of these? No.

Yes, Haraam, Tafseer- Bir-Rayee is Haraam. That's what he does. And FYI , I don't beleive in any "non-Voilent Jihad".



InshAllah, I will be taking Islamic courses/'Alim Courses for a number of years, and then I will return and say the same exact thing I have been saying all along about Dr. Israr.

Nobody in Tanzeem is saying the best way is to follow Dr. Israr Ahmad (i.e., by not being traditionally trained to become a scholar in its proper connotation).

Plus, Dr. Israr is too old and sick to even go and learn in the madrassah's for 6-9 years, he's almost 80. What is the point? He is going to come out saying the same thing about Qur'an and Sunnah and I wouldn't be surprised if he learned very little.
__________________

We'll see when you come back after those years.

SamiribnZafarKhan
11-12-2004, 02:42 AM
Yes, Haraam, Tafseer- Bir-Rayee is Haraam. That's what he does. And FYI , I don't beleive in any "non-Voilent Jihad".

Interesting.... so does that make Imam Razi's tafseer haram?

What is your proof that it is haram?

Why don't you believe in "nonviolent Jihad?" The Prophet (saw) did it in Mecca for 12 years.

Usman
12-12-2004, 06:38 PM
Interesting.... so does that make Imam Razi's tafseer haram?

What is your proof that it is haram?

Why don't you believe in "nonviolent Jihad?" The Prophet (saw) did it in Mecca for 12 years.

Imam Razi (Rahimahullah)'s tafseer is bir raye? who said so? It's called Tafseer Wahbi, which is extracted from the prior three tafaseer categories. You DO know them, don't you?

Why don't you believe in "nonviolent Jihad?" The Prophet (saw) did it in Mecca for 12 years
Because there is no such thing as non-voilent Jihad. Or quote a hadeeth that Rasoolullah(صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) did tableegh of deen in makkah, and said "we're doing a non-voilent Jihad" or "jihad".


What is your proof that it is haram?
when you start studying the Daurah, you'll know the proof yourself. You're serious about going to become an aalim, right?

PARVEZ SHAIKH
27-03-2007, 08:36 AM
could you plz. send me the cds/ dvds of Maulana Israr Ahmed on the topic of Quran if available with you.

Thanks

SHAIKH PARVEZ
AFCONS INFRASTRUCTURE LTD.
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Veera Desai Road, Azad Nagar
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