faqir
31-03-2007, 12:04 PM
"This book of Imam Al-Safarini is the same book where he writes that the saved sect is Ahl Al-Sunnah and that it includes three schools: the Athariyah (the followers of Imam Ahmad), the Ash`ariyah (the followers of Abi Al-Hasn Al-Ash`ari), and the Maturidiyah (the followers of Abi Al-Mansur Al-Maturidi).
The defense of his position is that these three schools all follow the same methodology, namely that of Ahl Al-Hadith."
The following clarification was posted on Deenport - with some editing by me:
:salam:
[faqir: Shaikh Musa Furber (may Allah preserve him) said:]
al-salamu `alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
Please check :
http://forums.*********************/showthread.php?t=2009
Since you may have been involved with or interested in the discussion here or elsewhere, I would like to clarify something from the thread:
On 1/76, al-Safarini is quoted as saying:
[faqir: see http://forums.*********************/showpos...amp;postcount=6 (http://forums.*********************/showpost.php?p=9321&postcount=6)]
" 'a hanbali called [shaikh] Musa Furber said:
'This book of Imam Al-Safarini is the same book where he writes that the saved sect is Ahl Al-Sunnah and that it includes three schools:
the Athariyah (the followers of Imam Ahmad), the Ash`ariyah (the followers of Abi Al Hasn Al-Ash`ari), and the Maturidiyah (the followers of Abi Al Mansur Al-Maturidi).
The defense of his position is that these three schools all follow the same methodology, namely that of Ahl Al-Hadith.'
so basically to [shaikh] musa furber the "ahl al-Athar" mentiond by safarini includes "atharis" "asharis" "maturidis" so there is no contradiction in al-safarinee's kalam ' "
[faqir: reply by Abuz-Zubair: http://forums.*********************/showpos...amp;postcount=8 (http://forums.*********************/showpost.php?p=9323&postcount=8) ]
' *sigh*
Why don't you forget Musa Furber's Sharh for a second and let al-Saffarini explain his own poem - in his own words?
al-Saffarini says: `Some scholars said: (the saved sect) meaning, Ahl
al-Hadeeth, i.e. the Atharis, the Ash'aris and the Maturidis.
I say: The wording of the Hadeeth, i.e. his statement: `except one
sect', contradicts the idea of multiplicity, and thus I said:
This text (about the saved sect) cannot be applied to any sect
Save the Ahl al-Athar' (1/76)' "
[faqir: sh. Musa Furber's response is mentioned as follows:]
the [above] line is a mistranslation.
al-Safarini said:
"wa laysa hadha nassun jazman yu`tabar * fi firqatin illa `ala ahl al- athar"
in other words:
"this nass [the hadith of the saved sect] cannot be considered to apply *WITH ABSOLUTE, INCONTROVERTIBLE CERTAINTY (ar. jazman) * to any group except on Ahl al-Athar"
Please note that the parts in ALL CAPS and between asterisks is completely missing from their [faqir: Abuz-Zubair's] translation.
Al-Safarini, thus, does not here contradict his statement on 1/73 where he explicitly states that Ahl al-Sunnah are three. Ahl al-Athar fall under that hadith with incontrovertible certainty; Asharis and Maturidis fall under the hadith, just not with absolute, incontrovertible certainty.
Furthermore, what I wrote agrees with how the Hanbali scholars Ibn Shati, Ibn Mani, and Abu Khalaf al-Duhyan themselves understood it. (See: Tabsirat al-Qani`, Dar al-Basha'ir al-Islamiyyah. 1420/1999. p75 )It also agrees with what my three Hanbali shaykhs taught me.
wa-s-salam,
musa
The defense of his position is that these three schools all follow the same methodology, namely that of Ahl Al-Hadith."
The following clarification was posted on Deenport - with some editing by me:
:salam:
[faqir: Shaikh Musa Furber (may Allah preserve him) said:]
al-salamu `alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
Please check :
http://forums.*********************/showthread.php?t=2009
Since you may have been involved with or interested in the discussion here or elsewhere, I would like to clarify something from the thread:
On 1/76, al-Safarini is quoted as saying:
[faqir: see http://forums.*********************/showpos...amp;postcount=6 (http://forums.*********************/showpost.php?p=9321&postcount=6)]
" 'a hanbali called [shaikh] Musa Furber said:
'This book of Imam Al-Safarini is the same book where he writes that the saved sect is Ahl Al-Sunnah and that it includes three schools:
the Athariyah (the followers of Imam Ahmad), the Ash`ariyah (the followers of Abi Al Hasn Al-Ash`ari), and the Maturidiyah (the followers of Abi Al Mansur Al-Maturidi).
The defense of his position is that these three schools all follow the same methodology, namely that of Ahl Al-Hadith.'
so basically to [shaikh] musa furber the "ahl al-Athar" mentiond by safarini includes "atharis" "asharis" "maturidis" so there is no contradiction in al-safarinee's kalam ' "
[faqir: reply by Abuz-Zubair: http://forums.*********************/showpos...amp;postcount=8 (http://forums.*********************/showpost.php?p=9323&postcount=8) ]
' *sigh*
Why don't you forget Musa Furber's Sharh for a second and let al-Saffarini explain his own poem - in his own words?
al-Saffarini says: `Some scholars said: (the saved sect) meaning, Ahl
al-Hadeeth, i.e. the Atharis, the Ash'aris and the Maturidis.
I say: The wording of the Hadeeth, i.e. his statement: `except one
sect', contradicts the idea of multiplicity, and thus I said:
This text (about the saved sect) cannot be applied to any sect
Save the Ahl al-Athar' (1/76)' "
[faqir: sh. Musa Furber's response is mentioned as follows:]
the [above] line is a mistranslation.
al-Safarini said:
"wa laysa hadha nassun jazman yu`tabar * fi firqatin illa `ala ahl al- athar"
in other words:
"this nass [the hadith of the saved sect] cannot be considered to apply *WITH ABSOLUTE, INCONTROVERTIBLE CERTAINTY (ar. jazman) * to any group except on Ahl al-Athar"
Please note that the parts in ALL CAPS and between asterisks is completely missing from their [faqir: Abuz-Zubair's] translation.
Al-Safarini, thus, does not here contradict his statement on 1/73 where he explicitly states that Ahl al-Sunnah are three. Ahl al-Athar fall under that hadith with incontrovertible certainty; Asharis and Maturidis fall under the hadith, just not with absolute, incontrovertible certainty.
Furthermore, what I wrote agrees with how the Hanbali scholars Ibn Shati, Ibn Mani, and Abu Khalaf al-Duhyan themselves understood it. (See: Tabsirat al-Qani`, Dar al-Basha'ir al-Islamiyyah. 1420/1999. p75 )It also agrees with what my three Hanbali shaykhs taught me.
wa-s-salam,
musa