Documented history favors shia?

[JayBird]

Documented history favors shia? Somebody on another forum is claiming that: http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16

[scents of paradise]

Shia history is interesting the chaos, the fragmentation, the countless subsects , the non Alid Imams that were followed etc..because it actually weakens the very foundations of the doctrines, dogmas and theology of the twelver shia you might want to read this excellent book on Shia history www.alkatib.co.uk/englishbook.htm

[JayshAllah]

For refutations of Shia propaganda, go to :

www.ahlelbayt.com

[AliHusain]

For refutations of Shia propaganda, go to :

www.ahlelbayt.com


Salam.. brother.

why do u think what Shias follow is propoganda. And you need to be so defensive about it.

Shia Islam is one of the Schools of Islam and maybe we have diffrences with the Ahle Sunnat brothers in our beliefs but the diffrences are not that big.

If you study without partiality , InshaAllah you will be able to clear your mind and follow the Sirat e Mustakeem

Wassalam

[mospike]

We just cant stand the hate that you guys have for certain Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

[AliHusain]

salam
Love for any person ..should be just for one reason .. for the sake of Allah..

similarly we should hate any person.. only if he or she is an enemy of Allah and Islam.


the hatred that shias have towards the Munafeqeens (Hypocrites) at the time of the Holy Prophet SAWA , is because their deeds during the the life of the Holy Prophet SAWA and afterwards . We believe that these Munafeqeens were the real enemies of Islam and have hurt the message of the Holy Prophet SAWA and Islam

Wassalam

[mospike]

Salaam

Please name these Munafiqs?(according to you)

then we can take it from there....

[AliHusain]

Salaam

Please name these Munafiqs?(according to you)

then we can take it from there....



Ok.. But first do you agree that the Munafeeqs ( Hypocrites) should be considered enemies of Islam

[mospike]

Bro there is no need for you to use tactics here....

Quraan e Kareem has stated factually what the Munafiqs are to Islam....

[JayshAllah]

salam
Love for any person ..should be just for one reason .. for the sake of Allah..

similarly we should hate any person.. only if he or she is an enemy of Allah and Islam.


the hatred that shias have towards the Munafeqeens (Hypocrites) at the time of the Holy Prophet SAWA , is because their deeds during the the life of the Holy Prophet SAWA and afterwards . We believe that these Munafeqeens were the real enemies of Islam and have hurt the message of the Holy Prophet SAWA and Islam

Wassalam

Is it Halal in your opinion to marry your daughter off to a Munaafiqh?

[AliHusain]

Bro there is no need for you to use tactics here....

Quraan e Kareem has stated factually what the Munafiqs are to Islam....



tactics.. ???

[AliHusain]

Is it Halal in your opinion to marry your daughter off to a Munaafiqh?
is this an answer or another question?

Anyways .. what if the misdeeds of the munafeqeen have been committed after your death

[JayshAllah]

is this an answer or another question?

Answer the question. Yes or no? I'll make it easier for you. Would Ali [ra] marry his daughter off to a Munaafiqh? (You think that Prophet Muhammad [s] marrying off his daughters to Uthman [ra] is your only weak point???)


what if the misdeeds of the munafeqeen have been committed after your death

Funny how you Rafidhis can lie so easily. Here, you are ready to use the argument that these Munaafiqh committed evil deeds only after the Prophet's death and that's why the Prophet [s] didn't condemn them, disassociate himself from them, or deny his daughters to them.

And *yet* a fundamental belief of Imami Shi'ism is that their Imams can see the future and just from hearing the voice of a person they can tell if the person is bound for Paradise or Hell-Fire. We read:

“Imam Ali said: “I swear by God Who holds my soul in His hand that I know all that the Prophet knew, and that I know all of the past and all of the future, up until the Day of Resurrection.”

source: http://al-islam .org/leadership/

According to Al-Kafi, the most reliable of the four Shia books of Hadith, the Imams could supposedly tell who is going to Paradise and who is going to Hell-Fire merely by listening to a person’s voice:

“By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly.” (Usool Al-Kafi, p. 185)

So your entire argument is invalid. The Prophet [s]--according to your Imami beliefs--would know all the sins of a person both before and after his own death.

[AliHusain]

[QUOTE=JayshAllah;192623]Answer the question. Yes or no? I'll make it easier for you. Would Ali [ra] marry his daughter off to a Munaafiqh? (You think that Prophet Muhammad [s] marrying off his daughters to Uthman [ra] is your only weak point???)
[QUOTE]

This is just an allegation whcih has been refuted.

[mospike]

very very very weak AliHusain

u the 1 that wanted the debate now you giving 1 liners...

Sad sad sad....

[AliHusain]

very very very weak AliHusain

u the 1 that wanted the debate now you giving 1 liners...

Sad sad sad....

sorry brother.. but just making slanders like these wont help. I thought i would discuss something with you guys .. but you guys have disappointed me by making slanders like these and calling names.

anyways.. if you can reply to my question then please do,

Wassalam

[JayshAllah]

This is just an allegation whcih has been refuted.

Really?

Let's see what Al-Islam .org, your favorite Shia website, says: OMG, it says that it is not an allegation but that it is the truth! Your own Shia website says that the marriage between Ali's daughter and Umar [ra] is an undeniable truth. Read:

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/umm-kulthoom-2

[AliHusain]

Really?

Let's see what Al-Islam .org, your favorite Shia website, says: OMG, it says that it is not an allegation but that it is the truth! Your own Shia website says that the marriage between Ali's daughter and Umar [ra] is an undeniable truth. Read:

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/umm-kulthoom-2

please desist from allegations.. it is better to keep the discussion to a certain level of respect to each others believes

May Allah give you patience to see the truth and fill your heart with the love of the Holy Prophet and his AhleBayt (AS)

Remember me in your prayers too . .

Wassalam

[JayshAllah]

please desist from allegations..

Allegations? What allegations? So according to you, to say that Ali [ra] married his daughter to Umar [ra] is an allegation? Then what do you say about the multitude of Shia scholars who made this "allegation"?


May Allah give you patience to see the truth and fill your heart with the love of the Holy Prophet and his AhleBayt (AS)

Silly Shia, I already have oodles of love for the Prophet [s] and Ahl al-Bayt [ra]. It is *you* who needs to pray for yourself to love the Ahl al-Bayt [ra] such as Umm al Mu'mineen Aisha [ra] and Hafsa [ra].


Remember me in your prayers too . .

May Allah guide you to Islam.

[AliHusain]

Allegations? What allegations? So according to you, to say that Ali [ra] married his daughter to Umar [ra] is an allegation? Then what do you say about the multitude of Shia scholars who made this "allegation"?


Please desist from Allegations. The daughter of Imam ali was married to the son of his brother. Imam Ali had married all of his daughters within the family.




I already have oodles of love for the Prophet [s] and Ahl al-Bayt [ra]. It is *you* who needs to pray for yourself to love the Ahl al-Bayt
May Allah guide you to Islam.

Inshallah

[mospike]

It is not an allegation Bro AliHusain your own Shuyukh have admitted it.........

[AliHusain]

Now back to the topic


Salaam

Please name these Munafiqs?(according to you)

then we can take it from there....

Walekumsalam



The biggest munafiq of them all Yazeed .

unfortunately some sunnis consider him to be Khalifa . ( sick )

Who is the bigger munafiq than yazeed

[AliHusain]

It is not an allegation Bro AliHusain your own Shuyukh have admitted it.........

Brother mospike,
None of the Shaikeens i believe in testify to such an allegation(Nausobillah)

[mospike]

i am reading currently a very elementary book by Moulana Abdush Shakur Farooqi Lucknowi (ra) and he very simplistically explains all these issues....

Explain why you say his is Munafiq

[mospike]

Also visit

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10517

[AliHusain]

i am reading currently a very elementary book by Moulana Abdush Shakur Farooqi Lucknowi (ra) and he very simplistically explains all these issues....

Explain why you say his is Munafiq


Brother do u imply that Yazeed was not a munafeeq

[mospike]

http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-21045294

[AliHusain]

http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-21045294




Firstly, it must be remarked here that this is not an issue on which one’s Iman depends, nor will one be asked on the day of Judgement as to what opinion one held about Yazid. This is a trivial matter, thus many scholars have advised to abstain from indulging and discussing the issue and concentrate on the more immediate and important aspects of Deen.

Trivial matter ???? killing of the Grandson of the Holy Prophet SAWA is trivial matter.




Therefore, it would best be to abstain from cursing Yazid, as there is no reward in cursing him, rather one should abstain from discussing about him altogether and concentrate on more practical aspects of Deen


Isnt it avoiding discussing history and learning the true path of Islam because perhaps the impurity in Yazeed comes from his father and leads the Muslim towards Saqifah??

[AliHusain]

http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/surah63.html


Surah Al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites)


Bismillah Hir Rehman Nir rahim

1. When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad ), they say: "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of All�h." All�h knows that you are indeed His Messenger and All�h bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.

2. They have made their oaths a screen (for their hypocrisy). Thus they hinder (men) from the Path of All�h. Verily, evil is what they used to do.

3. That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.

4. And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May All�h curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.

5. And when it is said to them: "Come, so that the Messenger of All�h may ask forgiveness from All�h for you", they turn aside their heads, and you would see them turning away their faces in pride.

6. It is equal to them whether you (Muhammad ) ask forgiveness or ask not forgiveness for them. Verily, All�h guides not the people who are the F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h) .

7. They are the ones who say: "Spend not on those who are with All�h's Messenger, until they desert him." And to All�h belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites comprehend not.

8. They (hyprocrites) say: "If we return to Al-Madinah, indeed the more honourable ('Abd�llah bin Ubai bin Salul, the chief of hyprocrites at Al�Madinah) will expel therefrom the meaner (i.e. All�h's Messenger )." But honour, power and glory belong to All�h, His Messenger (Muhammad ), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not.

9. O you who believe! Let not your properties or your children divert you from the remembrance of All�h. And whosoever does that, then they are the losers.

10. And spend (in charity) of that with which We have provided you, before death comes to one of you and he says: "My Lord! If only You would give me respite for a little while (i.e. return to the worldly life), then I should give Sadaqah (i.e. Zak�t) of my wealth , and be among the righteous [i.e. perform Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah)].

11. And All�h grants respite to none when his appointed time (death) comes. And All�h is All-Aware of what you do.

[AliHusain]

Bismillah Hir Rehman Nir rahim

1. When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad ), they say: "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of All�h." All�h knows that you are indeed His Messenger and All�h bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.





Clearly shows that there were Munafeqeens who claimed to be Muslims during the life of the Holy Prophet SAWA

[mospike]

Therefore, it would best be to abstain from cursing Yazid, as there is no reward in cursing him, rather one should abstain from discussing about him altogether and concentrate on more practical aspects of Deen

Exactly, you must take the entire Fatwa into context and not bits and pieces. The views expressed in their i have accepted as being correct, from me (due to lack of further understanding) this is where i will end on this topic Inshallah

W/salaam

[AliHusain]

4. And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May All�h curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.




It is the Holy Quran that shows that Allah has cursed these Munafeqeens in the garb of Muslims. The same 'hypocrites' who lived during the life of the Holy Prohet SAWA. and prayed behind him. The same 'hypocrites' whose claim to fame is becoming sahab e Payghambar (SAWA) , just on the basis of recitation of Qalima and having lived during the time of Holy Prophet SAWA

Cursed by the Holy Quran.

Wassalam

[JayshAllah]

It was a Shia who gave the death-blow to Hadrat Hussain [ra]. His name was Shimr. Go curse him, you Shiateen.

[scents of paradise]

Salam.. brother.

why do u think what Shias follow is propoganda. And you need to be so defensive about it.

:salam:

Allow me to address your post even though it's not addressed to me.

I diagree with the brother..not everything Shias follow is rubbish..as long as they believe in the crystal clear Qur'an.and as long as they stick to it then they are fine..problem occurs when they try to interpret the Qur'an so that it's in line with their specific beliefs which is almost exclusively derived from the hadeeth books written and compiled by fallible human beings who also narrated it from people with an agenda .i.e the ghulat and shias do testify that many of their hadeeths have been narrated by people from this group.


Shia Islam is one of the Schools of Islam and maybe we have diffrences with the Ahle Sunnat brothers in our beliefs but the diffrences are not that big.

The differences are big..the similarities are also many..and yes the shias are one of the schools of thought not just a juristic one but a theological one
( The concept of Imamah which is totally nonexistant in the Qur'an and not followed by any other muslims apart from yourselves..this IS a big sticking point a BIG difference)


If you study without partiality , InshaAllah you will be able to clear your mind and follow the Sirat e Mustakeem

Wassalam

So you are saying your path is the Sirat al Mustaqeem? The Sirat Al Mustaqeem is not the way of the Shias or the Sunnis..the Sirat Al Mustaqeem is that path of the righetous who came before us from the dawn of time those who followed their Prophets and God's Books which is 100% accurate ..they were neither shias or sunnis...they were MOUMINEEN MUSLIMEEN..that is it. The Qur'an talks about it..read up on it.

:ws:

[scents of paradise]

It was a Shia who gave the death-blow to Hadrat Hussain [ra]. His name was Shimr. Go curse him, you Shiateen.

Brother I think you have to stop being such a reactionary foul mouthed bigot..How could you call a fellow Muslim that? I am not from any sect but i do think a lot of your intolerance and bad akhlaaq is stemming from the fact that you are a salafi.

[Gajibur]

Brother I think you have to stop being such a reactionary foul mouthed bigot...


Assalamu alaykum sister

I don't get it, you start off saying "brother" and end up calling JayshAllah a foul mouthed bigot. This isn't very nice, after all his your muslim brother :( . I agree that brother JayshAllah shouldn't insult people, but i think he just gets angry sometimes with shiites. Shiites seem to be always trying to prove the Ahle sunna wal jama wrong, and this is enough to get any sunni angry. Please sister, don't take this the wrong way, i'm just saying you should have been less hostile in your criticism of JayshAllah. :)

[scents of paradise]

Assalamu alaykum sister

I don't get it, you start of saying "brother" and end up calling JayshAllah a foul mouthed bigot. This isn't very nice, after all his your muslim brother :( . I agree that brother JayshAllah shouldn't insult people, but i think he just gets angry sometimes with shiites. Shiites seem to be always trying to prove the Ahle sunna wal jama wrong, and this is enough to get any sunni angry. Please sister, don't take this the wrong way, i'm just saying you should have been less hostile in your criticism of JayshAllah. :)

Brother if people get angry and heated everytime..then there IS a problem..INSECURITY who ever tries to use bad language all the time HAS a problem whether sunnis or shias..We can see this from the websites some of the brothers posted whether sunni or shia..they do contain some good articles..but also a lot of angry articles..Why can't we just have a civil mature dialogue without generalisations and misrepresentations? and why can't we reject the troublemakers?

[MohammadMufti]

Brother if people get angry and heated Why can't we just have a civil mature dialogue without generalisations and misrepresentations? and why can't we reject the troublemakers?

Hmm, civil dialouge, precisely what JayshAllah was participating in, substantiating claims and what-not, and each time he receives a response to the effect of: "please desist from allegations.. it is better to keep the discussion to a certain level of respect to each others believes"

That's like sticking your fingers and your ears and essentially shutting the other party out, it's not really *possible* to have civil dialouge with such people.


How could you call a fellow Muslim that? I am not from any sect but i do think a lot of your intolerance and bad akhlaaq is stemming from the fact that you are a salafi.

The other guy implies that the prominent Sahabah (ra) are munafiqeen. That one isn't a "foul mouthed bigot". Than someone labeled as a Salafi resorts to a fair reply to such a person, and he's a bigot? pfft.

[JayshAllah]

How could you call a fellow Muslim that?

I do not consider him a "fellow Muslim", that is why. The ones who argue and debate and are obstinate can be classified as "learned Shia" and hence the excuse of ignorance for them does not apply.

However, you are right, I will try to be more courteous with them Insha-Allah. It's tough.


i'm just saying you should have been less hostile in your
criticism of JayshAllah. :)

Jazakh-Allah Khairan, both you and Brother DeathPasser!

[scents of paradise]

Hmm, civil dialouge, precisely what JayshAllah was participating in, substantiating claims and what-not, and each time he receives a response to the effect of: "please desist from allegations.. it is better to keep the discussion to a certain level of respect to each others believes"

That's like sticking your fingers and your ears and essentially shutting the other party out, it's not really *possible* to have civil dialouge with such people.



The other guy implies that the prominent Sahabah (ra) are munafiqeen. That one isn't a "foul mouthed bigot". Than someone labeled as a Salafi resorts to a fair reply to such a person, and he's a bigot? pfft.


So they hate the Sahaba...WE KNOW THAT..We know how abundant the anti sahaba narrations in their books are..if they follow those lies and believe in them and make cursing a religious obligation Allah will judge them ..Why does any other muslim who hates their beliefs..reduce themselves to the level of namecalling?

[MohammadMufti]

Why does any other muslim who hates their beliefs..reduce themselves to the level of namecalling?

Firstly, on Hcy, brother JayshAllah had made apparant that he avoids cursing in the general against even the Shi'a. It's simply not something I know him to do, now if a Rafidi hobbles along and posts in big red letters, Holy verses from the Qur'an and implys that they are for the Sahabah (ra) and constantly (rather than discussing) ignores what is being said yet continues to speak, no doubt a brother will get agravated. But that isn't just cause for you, a Muslim, to call your own as "foul mouthed bigots". There is much better ways to word it without offending Muslims in favor of Rawafid.

You had said to the brother (after insulting him), "How could you call a fellow Muslim that?" So do you consider the one who slanders and attacks our noble Sahabah (ra) as one of the Muslims? SubhanAllah.



And he said, "Whoever abuses my Companions, upon them is the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people" [Saheeh, At-Tabaranee].

The views of Ahlus Sunnah concerning Sahabah (ra) (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=74)

And Allah (swt) says the Muslims are soft on the believers and harsh with the disbelievers, not the other way around ukthi. Wallahu Alam, no doubt I don't disagree that cursing the Rawafid isn't the best way, but cursing the Muslims in there defence is worse.

[Mubid al-Majus]

i am reading currently a very elementary book by Moulana Abdush Shakur Farooqi Lucknowi (ra) and he very simplistically explains all these issues....

Brother mospike, may I know what is the title of the book? Jzk.

[Saad]

i am reading currently a very elementary book by Moulana Abdush Shakur Farooqi Lucknowi (ra) and he very simplistically explains all these issues....

Explain why you say his is Munafiq

I would also like to know where can I get this book by Imam Ahle Sunnat Abdur Shakur Lucknowi.

[Gajibur]

http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/surah63.html


Surah Al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites)


Bismillah Hir Rehman Nir rahim

1. When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad ), they say: "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of All�h." All�h knows that you are indeed His Messenger and All�h bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.

2. They have made their oaths a screen (for their hypocrisy). Thus they hinder (men) from the Path of All�h. Verily, evil is what they used to do.

3. That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.

4. And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May All�h curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.

5. And when it is said to them: "Come, so that the Messenger of All�h may ask forgiveness from All�h for you", they turn aside their heads, and you would see them turning away their faces in pride.

6. It is equal to them whether you (Muhammad ) ask forgiveness or ask not forgiveness for them. Verily, All�h guides not the people who are the F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h) .

7. They are the ones who say: "Spend not on those who are with All�h's Messenger, until they desert him." And to All�h belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites comprehend not.

8. They (hyprocrites) say: "If we return to Al-Madinah, indeed the more honourable ('Abd�llah bin Ubai bin Salul, the chief of hyprocrites at Al�Madinah) will expel therefrom the meaner (i.e. All�h's Messenger )." But honour, power and glory belong to All�h, His Messenger (Muhammad ), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not.

9. O you who believe! Let not your properties or your children divert you from the remembrance of All�h. And whosoever does that, then they are the losers.

10. And spend (in charity) of that with which We have provided you, before death comes to one of you and he says: "My Lord! If only You would give me respite for a little while (i.e. return to the worldly life), then I should give Sadaqah (i.e. Zak�t) of my wealth , and be among the righteous [i.e. perform Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah)].

11. And All�h grants respite to none when his appointed time (death) comes. And All�h is All-Aware of what you do.

Brother 'AliHusain', we know there were hypocrites at the time of the prophet(s.a.w). The difference is you shiites believe most of the sahaba were hypocrites, while sunnis believe the sahaba(companions who died as muslims) were the best generation of muslims. Did not Allah himself declare in the Qur'an in surah 3 verse 110:

YUSUFALI: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

PICKTHAL: Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers.

SHAKIR: You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.

I have given you 3 different translations, so there can be no complaint against me for choosing a dodgy or incorrect translation. The above verse was revealed in the time of the prophet(s.a.w) and the sahaba, therefore Allah was clearly talking about the Sahaba. What other nation/community or people could Allah have meant, can you tell me?. Allah even says how this nation believes in Allah, so Allah is therefore saying that the muslims of the prophet's time (sahaba) were faithful believers. How can you say most of the sahaba were bad people when Allah refers to them as the best nation raised up for mankind and believers in Allah. :rolleyes: Please note that this verse can obviously apply to the muslims of anytime, as long as they enjoin the good and forbid the evil and believe in Allah. But when Allah revealed this verse the only muslims around were the sahaba(may Allah be please with them), so it must be referring to them. :p

Also the people who compiled the qur'an which you shiites use were the sahaba. And if Allah hates the sahaba for betraying the prophet and his family, then why did he give them such a great empire, which stretched from spain to china. Funny way to reward a people who according to you shiites had just betrayed the prophet(s.a.w) and his beloved family. :rolleyes:

Anyway it's prayer time, see ya

[scents of paradise]

Also the people who compiled the qur'an which you shiites use were the sahaba. And if Allah hates the sahaba for betraying the prophet and his family, then why did he give them such a great empire, which stretched from spain to china. Funny way to reward a people who according to you shiites had just betrayed the prophet(s.a.w) and his beloved family. :rolleyes:


:salam:

An empire which should have been led by children who were below the age of puberty..orphaned children that Allah s.w.t commands us to take care of until they get older.The 9th Imam Muhammed Al Jawad's father died while he was seven and he died when he was 25 yrs leaving behind a six year old son The 10th Imam Ali Al Naqi/ Hadi...How can such children be in charge of the affairs of Muslims living in an vast empire stretching from China to Spain?? How can they effectively manage the wealth of the Muslims i.e Zakah? How can we expect them to know all the laws of the Shariah? How can they be in a position to appoint jurists, judges, governors, military commanders ??

but the Shias will retort what about Prophet Yahya and Prophet Isa ( A.S)who were given wisdom while they were young?? Point 1 : Allah mentions these important Prophets , He gave them signs and miracles. Prophet Isa ( A.S) was a prophet from birth he was not in charge of his own affairs, his mother looked after him and he didnt have any huge empire to govern on a day to day basis..lets see the historical facts Lets see this verse of the Qur'an

“ And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgment in them, release their property to them'
--This verse is general and DOES NOT exempt the socalled future leaders of the Ummah (May Allah be pleased with them all)
These orphaned children can't touch a penny of their own money and the Shias think its perfectly rational to entrust these orphans with the money of the Muslims(


Historical evidence
Though the philosophical conjectural evidences and weak conflicting single narrator traditions, cannot disprove the generalization in the Qur'an nor restrict it, or restrict the general injunction, historical realities deny the existence of any special case where the existence of any special case where the Imam was a small child. The history of Shiism points that: Imam Jawwad for example gave his will to his son Ali Hadi, through Abdullah bin Musawir, and made an overseer on his inheritance, including gardens, wealth expenditures, slaves e.t.c, till the time when Ali bin Muhammad became matured. He wrote the will and made Ahmad bin Khalid a witness to it, and that was on Sunday 3rd Dhul Hijjah, 220 A. H. Mufid however, was eager to carry on the intellectual debate seriously after more than 100 years of its inception, and without him witnessing any Imam during his childhood, so that he establishes something on their personal situation, and so as to know if they possess the qualifications of unnatural exception? Sheikh Mufid will not refer to history so as to establish his doctrine on the basis of reality… He feels satisfied with late and abstract philosophical theorization, after a period of 100 years … He follows by that an unscientific method to reach the truth

Quote taken from www.alkatib.co.uk/englishbook.htm (read it ..its fab .its the only book i refer to when discussing sectarian issues.The Author was a former Iraqi Shia Twelver Missionary and there is not a whiff of any bias towards any sect since now he is just a Muslim walhamdulilah)

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