Is Martin Lings a Muslim?

[Omar HH]

Asslam Alaikum,

I always thought he was until I read an article linked to in Sidi Faraz's blog which went to islamonline.net and said he was a "Universalist"

I always thought Abu Bakr Siraj ad-Din was his "Muslim name."

??????

Jazakallahu Khayrun

[Live for Islam]

Do you mean Martin Lings aka Abu Bakr Siraj ad-Din?

Have you got a link to the article?

[abdushakur]

huh? whats a 'Universalist'?????


masters of the universe fan?

someone who has a thing for universities or somat??

[abdul518ca]

If you mean Martin Ling, he is a Muslim. He wrote this excellent book which introduces Tasawwuf.

[Omar HH]

Thats what I thought.

A universalist is this "church" it's not really Christian, they are kind of the least-common denominator people. Unitarian Universalists. They take the religious beliefs of every single religion that agree and make them into one faith or something basically. At their meetings they discuss their "fears and hopes" and have different speakers such as Buddhist monks etc.

There's probably a place like that in your town, look for Unitarian Universalist.

Maybe theres another kind of "Universalist" which I don't know about. But I know about the Unitarian one's.

Jazakallahu Khayrun

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

There is a difference between a universalist small-u and a Universalist capital-U. The latter merged with the Unitarian church in 1961, and are now the Unitarian-Universalist or UU church. I think, however, that there are still some independent Unitarian and Universalist churchs in the world.

What is said about Martin Lings is that he is a small-u universalist. He subsribes to the doctrine of perennialism, via a school of thinkers known as the Traditionalists. They believe that there is salvation through the "Traditional" religions of the world -- Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam. They reject Baha'ism, Sikhism, and other newer religions. I'm not sure of their position on Zoroastrianism, but I wouldn't be surprised if they accept it. But in other words, they believe in the unity of the world's Traditional religions -- one is as good as another.

Other somewhat well known perennialists are Sachiko Murata, William Chittick, Charles Le Gai Eaton, and Sayyed Hossain Nasr, all of whom profess the shahada, and all of whom were all greatly influenced by or students Frithjof Schuon (Nasr being his most influential student), who in turn was a student of Rene Guenon, also known as Sheikh Abdul Wahid Yahya (he also embraced Islam). Not all Guenonian Traditionalists are Muslims, and some other well-known Traditionalists include Huston Smith, Titus Burkhardt (who I don't think is a Muslim, despite his many writings on it, but I could be wrong), and Thomas Merton.

Schuon and Nasr, at least, follow a tariqa that broke off from the 'Alawiya, called the Maryamiya, based on a vision Schuon claimed he had of the Virgin (aleyha salaam) proclaiming the transcendence of religion and gave him a universal vision. The tariqa is quite (or was) secretive.

Traditionalism is not to be confused with Traditional Islam, or Ahlus Sunnah, which is quite another basket of eggs.

Mark Sedgewick is the best resource on Traditionalism: http://www.aucegypt.edu/faculty/sedgwick/trad/index.html

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Also, on UUs, they do not follow a creed. They follow common principles. Universalism is, of course, one of them. However, no one is asked to subscribe to a creed. There are Christian UU's, who are generally Unitarians (vs. Trinitarians). There are also Jewish UU's, Pagan UU's, and Atheist UU's. Their services revolve around prayers, sermons, talks, and lessons. They may have a Buddhist monk in one week to speak about compassion, and the next week, will have a service celebrating a Pagan holiday. Not surprisingly, there are very few Muslims who attend or belong to the UU.

I had a professor in film school who grew up in the UU. She said that if one were on the road to Heaven, Muslims, Christians, etc. would follow the sign that said "Heaven, this way," while UU's would follow the one that said "Discuss and debate the existence of Heaven, this way."

Here's a UU FAQ: http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq.html

These are the UU's common principles, that all members subscribe to: http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

[GenN]

Assalmu alaykum,

So he is not a muslim then. SubhanAllah I thought he was a muslim.

[ibn ayyub]

In Hamza Yusufs Seerah of prophet series he mentioned Marting Lings to be a muslim. ????.

[Mossy]

Assalmu alaykum,

So he is not a muslim then. SubhanAllah I thought he was a muslim.

He is a muslim - small u, muslim. Has a nice beard and is like 95.

[abdushakur]

hahaha

sooooo is he muslim (or Muslim) or NOT???????????

with a big 'm' or a little 'm' it dont matter!

just tell us - is HE meem, seen, laam, meem!!!!!!!!!!!!!


man why cant ppl just ansa straight?

*rolls eyes like a gambler rolls a dice*

[Mossy]

He says he's muslim and scholars like Sh Hamza seem happy to be on the same bill as him and refer to his works (pointing out the slightly off bits). In the absence of scholarly takfir, I'd say go with that.

[Abu Abdallah]

As'salamu Alaikum,

Martin Lings is a Muslim and a highly respected scholar. He wrote the best biography of the Prophet (sal) I have read entitled, "Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources." If you read this book it will be very clear that he is a Muslim. Allah knows best.

Also, the Perennial Philosophy is a rearticulation of Islam (the five pillars) Iman (the One God, His Books, His Prophets, His Angels, the Day of Judgment, and that all good and evil comes from God), and Ihsan (virtue or beauty). Scholars such as Martin Lings, S. H. Nasr, and Rene Guenon will emphasize the Divine Truth that is found is each revelation. This approach conforms with and is inspired by the Qur'an and Sunnah. Again, read their work and it should be clear.

Peace,
Abu Abdallah

[GenN]

As'salamu Alaikum,

Martin Lings is a Muslim and a highly respected scholar. He wrote the best biography of the Prophet (sal) I have read entitled, "Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources." If you read this book it will be very clear that he is a Muslim. Allah knows best.

Also, the Perennial Philosophy is a rearticulation of Islam (the five pillars) Iman (the One God, His Books, His Prophets, His Angels, the Day of Judgment, and that all good and evil comes from God), and Ihsan (virtue or beauty). Scholars such as Martin Lings, S. H. Nasr, and Rene Guenon will emphasize the Divine Truth that is found is each revelation. This approach conforms with and is inspired by the Qur'an and Sunnah. Again, read their work and it should be clear.

Peace,
Abu Abdallah

Assalmu alaykum,

I have read the seerah books he has written. i do not like it. The way it is written, gives orientalists a lot of food to attack with. I would recommend people not to read it (yes i know people like Hamza Yususf have recommended it).

For example, it gives ideas that The prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upo him) married some women simply becasue of their beauty, and how he was stunned by some of the beauty of some women therfore he married them(along those lines, not word for word like that).

However this was not the reason the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married. If one reads some other seerahs the reasons are given for why the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) married the women and it wasn't simply becasue he found them attractive.

anyway, writing in such a manner creates doubts in some muslims, and gives orientalists excellent food to attack muslims and the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) with.

was salaam

[Abu Abdallah]

As'salamu Alaikum,

While it is true that the Prophet (sal) married some women as a charity (widows) and others to create peace with neighboring tribes, the ahadith tell us that he greatly amired the beauty in some (if not all) of his wives including Zaynab, Aisha, Khadijah, and others (ra). Lings uses traditional sources including sound ahadith to make this point.
The Prophet (sal) was a human being. As such he saw the beauty in women as one of the greatest gifts from God and a manifestation of His Grace. According to a well-known hadith, "The best things in the world are prayer, women, and scents."
Take care,
Abu Abdallah

[faqir]

Assalmu alaykum,

I have read the seerah books he has written. i do not like it. The way it is written, gives orientalists a lot of food to attack with. I would recommend people not to read it (yes i know people like Hamza Yususf have recommended it).

For example, it gives ideas that The prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upo him) married some women simply becasue of their beauty, and how he was stunned by some of the beauty of some women therfore he married them(along those lines, not word for word like that).

However this was not the reason the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married. If one reads some other seerahs the reasons are given for why the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) married the women and it wasn't simply becasue he found them attractive.

anyway, writing in such a manner creates doubts in some muslims, and gives orientalists excellent food to attack muslims and the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) with.

was salaam



I seem to recall shaykh Hamza commenting on this in his talks on the life of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam.

There was another issue he seemed to disagree with in the book [can't remember now what it was].

[Abu Abdallah]

As'salamu Alaikum,

I would ask those who find fault with Ling's biography to bring their evidence. Because everything in his text comes from the seera, Quran, or hadith.

Also, you should ask S. Hamza how Allah brought him to Islam. I have heard that it was through the very book and author you are critisizing.

Peace,
Abu Abdallah

[abdushakur]

okkkk soooo after reading some of the replies i think ppl like me who hav neva come across this martin links will be none the wiser....

i mean is he a muslim or not??????
some hav said that he's a universal muslim or somat???? what is that sposed to mean???? is it like the bahai faith?????

is he sunni? or what??


and i was just about to try and get that seerah book that some hav recommended but others have said that it contains some errors.....well for someone like me who is not a alim how will i kno of the errors????

i spose its beta i didnt read it huh?


any1 kno of a pukka seerah book that contains no errors?





on a serious note: if u dont kno for a fact for what reasons rasoolullah peace be upon him married someone for , then do not give reasons.
it is v insulting to say what u may not be sure of, unless he peace be upon him himself gave the reasons.
he is not like us.

[Omar HH]

Go out and read that book, I havent' read it yet but I want to, if Shaykh Hamza reccomends it it has to be good. Other than that there is "The Sealed Nectar" which is availible on sunnipath and is another Seerah. Also there's Shaykh Hamza's Life of the Prophet (SAWS) CD series you could buy from alhambra productions.

Jazakallahu Khayrun

[Abu Abdallah]

As'salamu Alaikum,

I think it is irresponsible and borders on slander to discredit Martin Lings and his biography of the Prophet (sal) without any evidence. He is a Muslim and has written one of the most important books of Islam in the English language.

Peace,
Abu Abdallah

[Yusuf]

Buy Shaykh Hamza's "Life Of Muhammad" and go through the book with him. :cheesygri

[Isa Abdullah]

Subhanallah-

Yes, Shaykh Abu Bakr Siraj Ad-Din/Martin Lings is a Muslim, and, judging from his sira, a Sunni. He has recently passed away, and was a great scholar of our faith.

[Abu Hurayrah]

Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim

Brothers, this is humilaition. Even after he wrote the seerah, and like three other islamic books, and changed his name to a muslim name, and Allah made 1000's of people love his book very much, and he was mentioned in Relaince, PEOPLE ARE STILL ASKING WEATHER HE IS A MUSLIM. Disgraceful. One brother said that in the absent of takfir, then he is a muslim. Oh boy. That's how we will know if people are muslim or not? How about if there is takfir? What then? What are we going to do? Yes he is muslim.

Ma salam

[Goldi]

Martin Lings followed some heterodox positions. This however does not take him out of the folds of Islam. Thank you to the sister from New York for a fabolous summary of the perennialist/traditionalist phenomenon.

I will however concur with the brother above/below and express a sense of complete surprise at the ignorant tone that is being displayed in this thread. If we are truly curious, let us go to a library and read, not ask boolean questions about things we shouldnt be booleanizing in the first place.

[nouralasrar]

Salam aleikoum,

some scholars, like Shaykh Nuh Keller and his disciples (Faraz Rabani) considers that people like Martin Lings, Frithjof Schuon and René Guenon were not muslims because they had an 'aqidah that wasn't orthodox.

For example, they believed that all religion are in fact monotheist in the text, polytheism appeared because of degradation of the original religion.

So they believed that all religions are in fact true.

They believed that all religions came from one original religion.

For Nuh Keller, those belief are against Islam 's Aqidah.

To my opinion, Schuon's 'Aqidah is very odd (he became indian shaman at the end of his life).

But I totally disagree for Rene Guenon, who was called Shaykh Abdel-Wahid Yahya in Egyptia. Shaykh Abdel-Halim Mahmud, Mufti of Al-Azhar, taught his writtings in Al-Azhar for 12 years.

Martin Lings, a muslim, Allahu a'alam.

[Isa Abdullah]

Martin Lings, a muslim, Allahu a'alam.

:rolleyes: Subhanallah. I agree with Abu Hurayra-this is astonishing to me, and very saddening. I have recently left Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam Lahore because, largely, I was convinced by reading Rene Guenon to leave a heterodox group and join the orthodox tradition of Islam. Now I find all this doubt over the "orthodoxy" of some of the best minds we had in Islam in this last century, over small (and, most importantly, subtle) aspects of iman. Arguing over someone's islam on if they regarded all religions as "true". I think this is presuming too much theologically, there is too much subtle shading of intent as to what that means, and how it would be judged. For example, Schuon, even, the most heterodox of the three of them, would have understood completely calling a kafir a kafir. Now, these questions should not be prized into. If the man says he is Muslim, follows all of islamic fundamentals of belief, and lives his life as a Muslim, how can he be called non-Muslim, over even doubt be cast over his islam, just because of some Sufi (read: easily misunderstood) concept that they may have held? I am very sorry to read these aspersions over the man, the Muslim, who wrote the best sira of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Always, Allah knows best. But to Martin Lings, Shaykh Abu Bakr Siraj Ad-Din, I would always have given my salams.

On a last note, I feel a tinge of irony over hearing Shaykh Nuh Keller (who I highly respect and like as a scholar) hold these opinions about these three men, shortly after picking up the latest issue of Islamica magazine and reading his article on people making takfir, Muslims calling each other out as non-Muslims or non-Islamic on fine theological points, and the wrongness of doing so.

*ataqullah*

[Mossy]

I don't think he nor Sidi Faraz actually hold that view (from what I've read/heard). In fact, I believe that the question of the beliefs of the "perennialists" was the motivator for said article and I remember Sidi Faraz defending Martin Lings after his death.

I think that's probably enough for this thread - we'll all find out soon enough :)

[Mossy]

yo... someone in the martin lings thread said that Sheikh Nuh thinks that Martin Lings was non-Muslim... i wanted to clarify.. he doesn't.. at least not publicly... as for wht he did say publicly... he said that it wud be wrong to call them kaafir because of this... i could provide details.. i just wanted to clarify that....

From br ahsanirfan, murid of Shaykh Nuh.