Bones created before muscle?

[J786]

:salam:

I would appreciate any help. Please look:


"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

Many muslims say that the Quran shows knowledge that bones are developed before muscles and muscles are wrapped around bones. However, some scientists have "proved" that this is untrue. See the below link. Some translations say that the Quran say that "bones are made and THEN clothed with flesh/muscles". The word "then" indicates that the flesh/muscles are wrapped around the bones AFTER the bones are created. However, if you look at the above translation, it does not actually say the word "then".

Look here at the verse from the Quran. This is a Yusuf Ali translation and I have highlighted the relevant english part:

259. Aw kaallathee marra AAala qaryatin wahiya khawiyatun AAala AAurooshiha qala anna yuhyee hathihi Allahu baAAda mawtiha faamatahu Allahu mi-ata AAamin thumma baAAathahu qala kam labithta qala labithtu yawman aw baAAda yawmin qala bal labithta mi-ata AAamin faonthur ila taAAamika washarabika lam yatasannah waonthur ila himarika walinajAAalaka ayatan lilnnasi waonthur ila alAAithami kayfa nunshizuha thumma naksooha lahman falamma tabayyana lahu qala aAAlamu anna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh." When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things."

My question is this: Could someone please analyse the arabic transliteration from above and tell me if the Quran actually uses the word "then"?

This is important because, if you look at ur body, can anyone deny that our flesh/muscles are wrapped around our bones? of course not. It is obvious. BUT if the Quran uses the word "then", it implies that bones were CREATED first and flesh/muscles are wrapped around them.

[AbdulQahhar]

:salam:

My question is this: Could someone please analyse the arabic transliteration from above and tell me if the Quran actually uses the word "then"?

This is important because, if you look at ur body, can anyone deny that our flesh/muscles are wrapped around our bones? of course not. It is obvious. BUT if the Quran uses the word "then", it implies that bones were CREATED first and flesh/muscles are wrapped around them.

:ws:

I'm sorry I can't help you with Arabic, but in Bosnian translation a word like "then" is used, the word used denoted like "after that" referring to time not space.

and about your last statement bro - no, IMHO, it does not IMPLY that bones were created FIRST. I'm not even trying to tafseer this verse of the Qur'an, only how the translation is used (the Bosnian and also English as I understand it): not necessarily bones were created BEFORE the flesh - it only talks about how they get wrapped with flesh, that's all. From the translation I don't think one can say, what was created first - bones or flesh? It doesn't mention at what stage the flesh is created.

[J786]

:ws:

I'm sorry I can't help you with Arabic, but in Bosnian translation a word like "then" is used, the word used denoted like "after that" referring to time not space.

and about your last statement bro - no, IMHO, it does not IMPLY that bones were created FIRST. I'm not even trying to tafseer this verse of the Qur'an, only how the translation is used (the Bosnian and also English as I understand it): not necessarily bones were created BEFORE the flesh - it only talks about how they get wrapped with flesh, that's all. From the translation I don't think one can say, what was created first - bones or flesh? It doesn't mention at what stage the flesh is created.

:salam:

Thanks for your reply.

I think you could be right. Perhaps the Quran means that the bones, flesh and muscle were made and THEN the flesh and muscle were wrapped around the bone.

I have thought of something else too. Scientists have said that muscles were not wrapped around the bones. BUT, looking at the above translation, it does not even say muscle. It says flesh. I wonder if this could make a difference...

[AbdulQahhar]

:salam:

Thanks for your reply.

I have thought of something else too. Scientists have said that muscles were not wrapped around the bones. BUT, looking at the above translation, it does not even say muscle. It says flesh. I wonder if this could make a difference...

Well, looking at my belly I could say that flesh is also FAT, not only muscles :cheesygri

[J786]

Well, looking at my belly I could say that flesh is also FAT, not only muscles :cheesygri

lol, that it true, however, the Quran could still be right and might mean that the flesh/muscles/everything else were created, and bones were created, then they were joined together by wrapping everything around the bones.

I dont really know, but I don't like when people bash Islam without considering the TRUE translation of verses :frown:

[AbdulQahhar]

lol, that it true, however, the Quran could still be right and might mean that the flesh/muscles/everything else were created, and bones were created, then they were joined together by wrapping everything around the bones.

I dont really know, but I don't like when people bash Islam without considering the TRUE translation of verses :frown:

The Qur'an is always true. The Qur'an is Light. Don't worry about what people say, I know how it feels, you feel terrible when you hear such things, my advise is that you pray to Allah :taala: to show you the explanation of that verse, and trust in Allah :taala:, and :insh: He will show this to you.

Then you can reply to the attackers of Islam, only remember that Sabr is necessary in these kinda conversations.

Allah :taala: always wins, kuffaar always loose. Allahu Akbar!

[J786]

The Qur'an is always true. The Qur'an is Light. Don't worry about what people say, I know how it feels, you feel terrible when you hear such things, my advise is that you pray to Allah :taala: to show you the explanation of that verse, and trust in Allah :taala:, and :insh: He will show this to you.

Then you can reply to the attackers of Islam, only remember that Sabr is necessary in these kinda conversations.

Allah :taala: always wins, kuffaar always loose. Allahu Akbar!

:salam:

nice post bro

I know I'm only 17 but if you ask me, there are only two ways of looking at it. Either the translation is wrong, or scientists are wrong in their findings. The Quran is always right. I have never once doubted the Quran when kufaar attack the wisdom of the Quran. :)

Allahu Akbar!

[AbdulQahhar]

:salam:

nice post bro

I know I'm only 17 but if you ask me, there are only two ways of looking at it. Either the translation is wrong, or scientists are wrong in their findings. The Quran is always right. I have never once doubted the Quran when kufaar attack the wisdom of the Quran. :)

Allahu Akbar!

Allahu Akbar! :D

Just remember bro, patience comes with years and experience and with how do we react on the tests from Allah :taala:. If it happens, that you're not certain about something (meaning that you don't have a clear answer to folks), just be patient, and as I said ask Allah :taala: to guide you to the true answer (regarding anything). A sincere du'aa to Allah :taala: can never ever fail. It's your ultimate weapon which needs no bullets, but emits light instead.

[J786]

Allahu Akbar! :D

Just remember bro, patience comes with years and experience and with how do we react on the tests from Allah :taala:. If it happens, that you're not certain about something (meaning that you don't have a clear answer to folks), just be patient, and as I said ask Allah :taala: to guide you to the true answer (regarding anything). A sincere du'aa to Allah :taala: can never ever fail. It's your ultimate weapon which needs no bullets, but emits light instead.

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes I think Allah does not have it in his will for us to convert kufaar to muslim but rather for us to be tested to see if we will hold faith we kufaar attack the wisdom of Allah and his book!

You are right about Duas. One unbeliever said that proof of Allah would be if he sent messengers to different nations and they spoke different languages but spoke the EXACT same message.

I knew this would be in the Quran, so I made Dua to Allah to ask him to help me find it in the Quran. I made my wudhu and then opened the Quran and mirculously it opened at surah Anbiya. I then showed him that the messengers infact spoke the EXACT same words. word for word. However, being the rejecter of faith he is, he rejected it.

Infact me and him are having and ongoing discussion about Islam. I am using science to prove the Quran to be true. We have been debating for weeks now. Look:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28190&page=12

[AbdulQahhar]

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes I think Allah does not have it in his will for us to convert kufaar to muslim but rather for us to be tested to see if we will hold faith we kufaar attack the wisdom of Allah and his book!

You are right about Duas. One unbeliever said that proof of Allah would be if he sent messengers to different nations and they spoke different languages but spoke the EXACT same message.

I knew this would be in the Quran, so I made Dua to Allah to ask him to help me find it in the Quran. I made my wudhu and then opened the Quran and mirculously it opened at surah Anbiya. I then showed him that the messengers infact spoke the EXACT same words. word for word. However, being the rejecter of faith he is, he rejected it.

Infact me and him are having and ongoing discussion about Islam. I am using science to prove the Quran to be true. We have been debating for weeks now. Look:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28190&page=12

:mash: bro, may Allah :taala: give you the best of rewards for your fight for Islam. Ameen.

[laughinglion]

:salam:

The word used in Arabic is "thumma" which when translated to English has the connotation of 'then'. But the ayat you have quoted (if you read it as it should be read) is not refering to the creation of the human in the womb but the re-creation of a decomposed donkey.

wiith peace

[laughinglion]

:salam:

Oh yes, as a reminder human knowledge human knowledge is not total and final. That is that human knowledge is always in change. Allah's :taala: knowledge is all-encompassing and absolute. Thus if what Allah has stated in His book concurs with scientific knowledge :alhamd:, if not :alhamd:. Allah speaks the truth. Because of the changing nature of human knowledge we should not be dogmatic when we find such concurrence. We just say Allahu a`lim.

Get ya 17 year old grey matter round this http://www.bogvaerker.dk/expansion.html

[J786]

:salam:

The word used in Arabic is "thumma" which when translated to English has the connotation of 'then'. But the ayat you have quoted (if you read it as it should be read) is not refering to the creation of the human in the womb but the re-creation of a decomposed donkey.

wiith peace

:salam:

I did not even notice this! I just seen on a muslim website that Allah created bones before flesh, then I seen some kufaar websites critisicing this. I just read the whole verse. Thanks so much for pointing that out bro! May Allah reward you!

[J786]

:salam:

Oh yes, as a reminder human knowledge human knowledge is not total and final. That is that human knowledge is always in change. Allah's :taala: knowledge is all-encompassing and absolute. Thus if what Allah has stated in His book concurs with scientific knowledge :alhamd:, if not :alhamd:. Allah speaks the truth. Because of the changing nature of human knowledge we should not be dogmatic when we find such concurrence. We just say Allahu a`lim.

Get ya 17 year old grey matter round this http://www.bogvaerker.dk/expansion.html

:ws:

Yes you are right. I never doubt the Quran. I am sorry if I have made it seem that way, but I'll repeat: either the translation of the Quran is wrong OR scientific finding are limited to the scientific knowledge of that particular time i.e the 21st Century. The Quran is never wrong.

Thanks for the link. I've seen it before. I've read all about the miracles in the Quran regarding the creation of the universe. Why dont you see this link:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

I have read about 95% of the miracles on the website. It's worth reading, it's very educational!

Please also see the PDF. It's a book by Dr. Zakir Naik which briefly (kind of) shows many miracles which prove the Quran has divine knowledge! :)

[J786]

:salam:

There is actually another verse. Look:

14. Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

(23:14) Al-Quran


However, the Quran does not say what was created first. To my knowledge, all it says is that the flesh was put around the bones. Can anyone deny this? our flesh/muscle is indeed "clothing" our bones.

[AbdulQahhar]

:salam:

There is actually another verse. Look:

14. Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!


However, the Quran does not say what was created first. To my knowledge, all it says is that the flesh was put around the bones. Can anyone deny this? our flesh/muscle is indeed "clothing" our bones.

Which also seems logical to me (although this is just a speculation), because imagine a bone "being inserted into the flesh" - would that not damage the tissue?

[J786]

Which also seems logical to me (although this is just a speculation), because imagine a bone "being inserted into the flesh" - would that not damage the tissue?

Yeah exactly. Plus our bones form the skeleton which is sort of like the foundation of our body. Then all the other components such as flesh and muscle can be placed around the bone. I'm not really sure. We must also remember that our internal organs are beneath our ribs etc.

Anyway, it's not even really important I guess, all we need to know is that our Quran is 100% scientifically correct. :) The point is, that the Quran gives a timeline as to when the skin etc wraps around the bone, and it is 100% true! see my next post!

[J786]

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."

This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."

This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."

This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.


:subh:

[AbdulQahhar]

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."

This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."

This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."

This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.


:subh:

:mash: very good post bro! :)

:jazak:
:ws:

[J786]

thanks :)