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abdushakur
22-12-2004, 02:15 PM
the reason why this has suddenly confused me is bcos of the following answer i read on sunnipath just now....


"4. Hinduism offers no eternal hell whereas in Islam a non-believer will abide in hell for eternity.

Hinduism certainly teaches belief in eternal hell in the possibility of enduring bad karma for evil people. Further, it is wrong to attribute to Islam the teaching that the non-believer will abide in hell forever. Rather, the disbeliever will; while the non-believer is given another chance until he either believes or disbelieves.

Hajj Gibril"


whats the difference between a "disbeliever" and a "non-believer"????

i know that some muslims do say that even christians and jews will eventually go to jannah....is the answer above related to that?

what is Hajj Gibril saying in his answer? And what are his qualifications?


forgive me for the multitude of Q's....its just that i was very confused after reading that answer above...

faqir
22-12-2004, 02:18 PM
asalamu alaykum,

In this context, I think Sh. G.F. Haddad is using the word disbeliever to mean someone who has rejected the message of Islam after it having reached him whereas non-believer in this context is likely to be referring to those kufar who have not yet received the message of Islam.

And Allah knows best

[for info on the Shaykh see: http://www.sunnipath.com/about/shaykhgibrilhaddad.aspx]

and read his interview at www.deenport.com

faqir
22-12-2004, 02:19 PM
Fate of Non Muslims in the Afterlife??

This was dealt with in the article [from: http://www.masud.co.uk <http://www.masud.co.uk/> , a brilliant site], a refutation of the idea of the 'universal validity of all religions,':



5. The Fate of Non-Muslims in the Afterlife


The reason that contemporary writers affected by the writings of Gunon and Schuon, such as Chittick and Gai Eaton (or such as Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt etc.), seem to want the universal validity of all religions at any price, even to the extent of attributing it to masters like Muhyiddin ibn al-`Arabi ("in principle") or Emir `Abd al-Qadir ("he protected the Christians against massacre by taking them into his own home because he understood" [as if other scholars considered massacring them halal]) would seem to be the emotive impalatability of followers of other religions going to hell. Where is the mercy? Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam?





This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities:


(1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Koran 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.

The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa.






(2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Koran 4:48).




In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

salman
22-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Salamu Alaikum

sidi Faqir is right. A disbeliever is someone like Abu Jahl, who was shown the truth of Islam but rejected it. As for the non believers, they are those who did not receive the message at all or in a proper way. They will be given the chance to accept it in the afterlife.

As for disbelievers - then yes, hell is eternal for them.

Wallahu A'lam

abdushakur
22-12-2004, 04:07 PM
jazakallah khayran and thanx bro faqir and salman.

so let me get this right....if my next door neighbour dies as a non-muslim having never really understood what islam teaches/enjoins then in the akhirah she will be asked if she wants to become muslim?


will this be asked directly by Allah ta'Ala Himself on the day of judgement with heaven and hell in view?
who would say no?!??!



im not being facetious....im just very confused as this is a bit new to me.

IlyasLahoz
22-12-2004, 07:48 PM
jazakallah khayran and thanx bro faqir and salman.

so let me get this right....if my next door neighbour dies as a non-muslim having never really understood what islam teaches/enjoins then in the akhirah she will be asked if she wants to become muslim?


will this be asked directly by Allah ta'Ala Himself on the day of judgement with heaven and hell in view?
who would say no?!??!



im not being facetious....im just very confused as this is a bit new to me.
assalam 'alaikum,

Two things Sidi,
The first is a reminder to myself (and Allah knows I am lax in this regard) that was brought to mind by your post. That is, that one's neighbors should never leave this world without having learned about Islam, that is a paramount duty of ours, especially in the West. JazakAlalhKhayr for bringing this to mind.

Second, as I understand the Ghazalian view -and Allah Knows Best-, eternal damnation is for the one who has chosen disbelief, as the brothers have elucidated on this thread, and it is amnesty, from Allah's tremendous Rahma, that meets the 'non-believer' in the hereafter, not the chance to submit. (and
this is no subtle difference, see Shaykh Nuh on the maqam of the muslim vis a vis the rest of creation (http://www.suhba.org/public/Jan98/VaSuhba_Jan1998_CD01.1c.mp3))

GenN
22-12-2004, 09:08 PM
Assalmu alaykum,

a further question tghat arises here is "exactly what constitutes a person having heard about Islam i.e how much must he have heard and understood about Islam to be a disbeliver, ho many proofs must he have been given, to what extenet must he have had Islam explained"?

abdushakur
24-12-2004, 12:13 PM
as I understand the Ghazalian view -and Allah Knows Best-, eternal damnation is for the one who has chosen disbelief, as the brothers have elucidated on this thread, and it is amnesty, from Allah's tremendous Rahma, that meets the 'non-believer' in the hereafter, not the chance to submit. (and
this is no subtle difference, see Shaykh Nuh on the maqam of the muslim vis a vis the rest of creation (http://www.suhba.org/public/Jan98/VaSuhba_Jan1998_CD01.1c.mp3))


is the Ghazalian view the accepted view amongst the ahlus sunnah wal jamah? is this a point of aqeedah?

i was never taught that a non-muslim would enter jannah if he/she had not been exposed to islam....but in my heart i do believe that how can such a person be thrown into jahannum for eternity. i was only taught that only muslims would enter jannah. may Allah forgive me if my thoughts are anti-haq.

can you provide sound evidences for the Ghazalian viewpoint?
(im really interestred....dont worry, im not a debater!)






a further question tghat arises here is "exactly what constitutes a person having heard about Islam i.e how much must he have heard and understood about Islam to be a disbeliver, ho many proofs must he have been given, to what extenet must he have had Islam explained"?


yeh this is what puzzles me too...












it would be real good to see what the online ulama can provide on this...

abdushakur
24-12-2004, 12:15 PM
AlexLahoz - sorry i cant access that Shaykh Nuh link at the mo cos im at work!

Omar HH
27-12-2004, 12:07 AM
Ghazali's view is the Ashari Aqeedah view, and Ahlul Sunnah wa Jama'ah is both the Ashari and Maturidis.

According to the Asharis, your next door neighbor if she died and did not recieve the true message of Islam or had a distorted message of it will not be punished, because in the Qur'an it says "We will not punish until we send a messenger" and those people recieve Divine Amnesty.

As for someone who is told the undistorted truth about Islam but still does not believe, he is a REJECTOR and therefore if he dies on this belief and Allah (SWT) does not put Iman in his heart at the last moments of his life, he will be damned to the hellfire eternally.

This is my understanding, Allahu Alam
Jazakallahu Khayrun.

Abu Usama
02-03-2005, 10:55 PM
So in todays context, one could argue that since the majority of the western world has recieved a distorted image of islam, that they are therefore not classified as disbelievers and can enter paradise if Allah (swt) has mercy upon them.

Muawiyah
02-03-2005, 11:03 PM
According to a narration the unbeliever will be asked by a messenger to enter the fire and if he enters he will find it to be cool

cotton
03-03-2005, 09:59 AM
Brother can you please explain that in greater detail?

abdushakur
03-03-2005, 02:15 PM
i think some ppl dont realise how important this point is....especially for muslims living in the west.

if a non-muslim comes to u and asks blatantly where he will be in the akhirah if he doesnt bother to take the shahada in the dunya, what can we tell him?

one view would be: such a person will reside in hell eternally
the other view would be: IF u had not heard of the full, true message of islam, and hence had nothing to reject, u will be tested on the day of judgement and from there u will either go to heaven or hell

i think it is a very pertinent question and is in no way a subtle difference of aqeedah opinion.

Idrees
03-03-2005, 02:21 PM
Here are some answers i have recievedfrom ulaama to situations similar to this

On the issue of non-Muslims: it is not true to affirm that the Ashari school holds that "non muslims wil go to paradise." Rather, the only difference is about those whom the message of Islam hasn't reached. And there is difference within the Ashari school as to what is considered sufficient for the message of Islam to have reached the person.

This is explained in the following answer:

The Fate of Non-Muslims in the Afterlife

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000117.aspx

Shaykh Adib Kallas of Damascus, a master of the science of aqida who is well-versed in the nuances and texts of both schools of Sunni beliefs, made an interesting observation about the various positions about the fate of non-Muslims in the afterlife. He said,


“We know that those who reject faith (man aba) are in Hell. It is not decisively established what exactly entails rejection of faith—this is why the scholars of Sunni Islam differed. As for the details, we should concern ourselves with our own fate: Allah will ask us about ourselves, not about what He should do with others.”

And Allah alone gives success.

Wassalam,

Faraz Rabbani

www.SunniPath.com -

"Verily, it is by the remembrance of God that hearts find contentment."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&
this regarding something sdifferent but the points are valid

No where does it
state that the disbelievers will enter paradise. The debate in this regard
amongst the Ulama is whether the fire of hell will last forever after the
Last Day (Day of Qiyaamah). Some opine to the view that the fire of hell
will be made non-existant by Allah Ta'aala after a period of time whilst
others opine to the view that the fire of hell will last forever. The second
view is more accurate and closer to the verses and Ahaadith of Rasoolullah
(Sallallaahu Alyhi wa Sallam).

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Was Salaam

Mufti E. Desai
Fatwa Dept.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
and also this regarding a hanafi choosing an aqeeda
maturidi or ashari? he wants to choose ashari as non muslims will eneter paradise
this the question

and the answer given to this is

As-salaamu Alaykum

I first would like to correct you in saying that the Ash'ari school of
thought does not say that the nonMuslims will go to Jannah. But it
says that it is possible for Allah to send them to Jannah (which means
going against His Word that he will never forgive them). The Maturidi
school of though says that it is not possible for not muslims to go to
Jannah as that would entail Allah going against His Word and this is
not possible.

At the end of the entire arguement both schools of thought concede
that the nonMuslims will never enter paradise. There is a third
opinion amongst the scholars that Allah will not allow the nonMuslims
to enter Jannah but He through His mercy will end their torment by
erasing their existance. This view however is extremely weak as in the
Qur'an the words Daaiman Abadan have been used for their staying in
Hell also (Surah Jinn).

Ultimately it would not make a difference in what your friend would
want to believe as the Qur'an is the final word on this. My sincere
hope is that his family accepts Islam and thus save themselves from
Hell. My only advice is that he continues to make effort in showing
them that Islam is the true religion. If Allah wills they will accept.

MAy Allah guide us all.

Was-salaam

Mufti Ebrahim Moosa

Muawiyah
04-03-2005, 02:13 AM
Salih al-Munajjid on the narration regarding the one who did not reciev the message of Islam (http://islamicwell.com/iqano1244.htm)

Omar HH
04-03-2005, 02:47 AM
So in todays context, one could argue that since the majority of the western world has recieved a distorted image of islam, that they are therefore not classified as disbelievers and can enter paradise if Allah (swt) has mercy upon them.

I advise you to read this thread for the ultimate understanding:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3679



a) Since the `Ash`ari school states that the rational mind alone
can reach the knowledge of the attributes of Allah, then
no divine-message contact is necessary for the *intelligent*
person who had an opportunity in life to ponder this issue
for him to be responsible for not committing atheism,
agnosticism,
and pure-polytheism. Such an atheist, agnostic, or
pure-polytheist
is not granted amnesty.
b) The only intelligent people who could possibly be granted
amnesty
are "conceptual" monotheists who have a vague idea about there
being
One All-Powerful Creator but have made major mistakes in the
details of belief and laws. This is because the `Ash`ari school
states that details of belief and law are *not* reachable
by the intellect alone.

The summary is very simple:

a) One is responsible for believing in and acting on whatever
one knows.

Thus, if an intelligent person is alone in the jungle, then he is
responsible for being a "conceptual" monotheist as that is reachable
via pondering alone via various avenues. And such a person would
not be responsible for knowing detailed tenets and laws which are
only learned from a divinely-revealed primary text. For example,
the person living in the jungle would not be responsible for knowing
that he cannot eat pork meat, nor is it necessary for him to know
that Allah has ordained five daily prayers on all humans. Nor is
it necessary for him to know all of the details of beliefs mentioned
in the Explanatory Notes of Song 3.

Reference(s):
[{al-Mayyarah Sharh, for Ibn `Ashir's Murshid, lines 21-28}]
[{`Ilm al-Usul al-Fiqh, Abd al-Wahhab Khallaf, Section
on Maturidi School.}]


> Since knowledge is firm conviction based upon evidence, what
> if the da'wah does not produce firm conviction based upon
> evidence in the individual? His heart is not satisfied because
> there is not enough evidence for him to accept Islam as the
> absoulte truth. Is this included in "da'wah having not
> reached them."

There is no necessity for the da`wah to produce a firm conviction
in the mind. If such were true then the kufr of the Quraysh would
be justified as Muhammad's (May Allah bless him and give him peace)
presentations did not produce such a firm conviction. But, the da`wah
has to be clear enough and unbiased enough such that it appears as
a definite possibility of the truth. And we do read that some of
the kuffar of Quraysh used to listen to the Prophet (May Allah bless
him and give him peace) surreptitious and *almost* be convinced of
the truth; but, then when they drew away they affirmed their
disbelief.

> But those who receive the true undistorted message of Islam and
> sit there and think about it and consider it possible to be
> true but do not accept it because they do not want to follow
> the fiqh are making the choice not to believe?

Both people are committing disbelief; but, what we state is that
the actual reason for the disbelief has often less to do with
the actual tenets that some other issue, such as that of fiqh
or that of being afraid of being outcast from society.

> See my mistake was that I was looking at belief as NOT a choice.
> The reason is to recognize something is true is not conciously
> chosen. I used to think that belief was based upon being proven,
> and you did not chose it.

Now. You understand correctly that a belief is chosen. Yes. There
is usually some knowledge proof behind the belief, but returns to
the choice.

> Can you please elaborate for me on the nature of how belief
> is a CHOICE?

There are three possibilities for each belief:

a) Either you accept it as true
b) You reject it as false
c) You are inconclusive about it.

For example, if someone walks up to you and says such-and-such famous
scholar has uttered this statement. Then, you are presented with
these three choices. Now, if you trust the source and the scholar,
then you most probably will choose option (a) even though the
actual statement of the scholar may be incorrect and not correspond
to true knowledge.

This is an example of how you chose a particular belief. And it is
this
exact method which almost all humans use to chose beliefs - and that
is on the *basis of trust*.

Now, Allah has been very merciful and He has not confined us to
*only* trusting His messengers; but, rather has conveyed through them
*actual* truths and realities which can - in many cases - be
independently
verified. And a point comes, where the person understands that the
messenger is a reliable source and thus trusts all of his
*authenticated*
statements - even those for which only rational preponderance can
be achieved or no rational statement can be issued...

> And what is the limit of proofs?

The limit of proofs is based upon trusted perception.

- Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani

AND

So, you are perhaps not understanding who a conceptual monotheist is.
A conceptual monotheist is a person if you were to ask them "Who
created
the heavens and the earth", they would say "Allah." This is explicitly
mentioned in the Qur'an in several verses which speak about the
Arabian Jahiliyyah Pagan Polytheists.

And this was the exact belief of the people of fatrah including all
of the Prophet's ancestors.

- Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani

Omar HH
04-03-2005, 03:01 AM
Basically, in a nutshell Akhi Abu Usama, from what i've been taught this is the case:

a) Person X is unreached by da'wah but is a conceptual monotheist. <--- Amensty
b) Person X has been reached of the da'wah but through non-Muslim sources which have distorted the message to a high degree. <--- Amnesty
c) Person X has been reached the undistorted da'wah, but has been told VERY little about Islam, yet he still believes Islam is rationally possible (although he does not chose to accept it, at least now) <--- No Amnesty, since he believes it is rationally possible to be truth.
d) Person X has been reached by the undistorted da'wah and learns much about Islam and believes it is rationally possible but decides not to accept it. <-- No Amnesty, since he is rejecting the message.

Why does person (d) reject the message? Many reasons:
1) Which is the most prevelant reason, and the reason of Abu Jahl, he does not want to follow the fiqh that goes along with the new religion.
2) Blind following of forefathers.
3) Arrogance.
4) Love of the world.
5) Ingratefulness to God.
etc. and you can get all of these reasons from the Qur'an.

Belief is a CHOICE. It is IMPOSSIBLE to find the da'wah as rationally impossible b/c it is DIVINE. Therefore those who find it rationally impossible have obviously recieved the distorted message (or may have mental retardation, or other mental/learning disabilities). And those who find it rationally possible have been reached by the undistorted message. And really, when you finally look at it like that, the Qur'an makes ALOT more sense to you when it tells you why people do not believe. Because the people's minds know that the message is rationally possible, but they are making up any argument they can against it because they do not want to follow the fiqh, or they say "why does a human being get the message" or they are arrogant, or they are deluded, etc.

Jazakallahu Khayrun

Omar HH
04-03-2005, 03:04 AM
I think Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani hit it on the dot when he said:

One is responsible for believing in and acting on whatever
one knows.

And that is basically the entire answer.

Omar HH
04-03-2005, 03:16 AM
Assalmu alaykum,

a further question tghat arises here is "exactly what constitutes a person having heard about Islam i.e how much must he have heard and understood about Islam to be a disbeliver, ho many proofs must he have been given, to what extenet must he have had Islam explained"?

It just must be clear enough and precise enough to present itself as a rational possibility.

If a person finds it rationally possible to be the DIVINE MESSAGE OF GOD, and yet does not try to learn more about it, then I don't see his excuse.

Hasina_uk
08-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Can u plzz elaborate.....so non-beleivers, whether they were good human beings or not will not be regarded?...They will just be given a chance to beleive or to not beleive...and then go straight to either hell or heavan?

Masha Allah...Iv been thinking all along they all got to hell...Allah is trully mericfull

abdushakur
08-03-2005, 01:58 PM
Basically, in a nutshell Akhi Abu Usama, from what i've been taught this is the case:

a) Person X is unreached by da'wah but is a conceptual monotheist. <--- Amensty
b) Person X has been reached of the da'wah but through non-Muslim sources which have distorted the message to a high degree. <--- Amnesty
c) Person X has been reached the undistorted da'wah, but has been told VERY little about Islam, yet he still believes Islam is rationally possible (although he does not chose to accept it, at least now) <--- No Amnesty, since he believes it is rationally possible to be truth.
d) Person X has been reached by the undistorted da'wah and learns much about Islam and believes it is rationally possible but decides not to accept it. <-- No Amnesty, since he is rejecting the message.

Why does person (d) reject the message? Many reasons:
1) Which is the most prevelant reason, and the reason of Abu Jahl, he does not want to follow the fiqh that goes along with the new religion.
2) Blind following of forefathers.
3) Arrogance.
4) Love of the world.
5) Ingratefulness to God.
etc. and you can get all of these reasons from the Qur'an.

Belief is a CHOICE. It is IMPOSSIBLE to find the da'wah as rationally impossible b/c it is DIVINE. Therefore those who find it rationally impossible have obviously recieved the distorted message (or may have mental retardation, or other mental/learning disabilities). And those who find it rationally possible have been reached by the undistorted message. And really, when you finally look at it like that, the Qur'an makes ALOT more sense to you when it tells you why people do not believe. Because the people's minds know that the message is rationally possible, but they are making up any argument they can against it because they do not want to follow the fiqh, or they say "why does a human being get the message" or they are arrogant, or they are deluded, etc.

Jazakallahu Khayrun


mashallah, thats the best answer ive seen on this thread and maybe outside of it so far.

and....


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenN
Assalmu alaykum,

a further question tghat arises here is "exactly what constitutes a person having heard about Islam i.e how much must he have heard and understood about Islam to be a disbeliver, ho many proofs must he have been given, to what extenet must he have had Islam explained"?



It just must be clear enough and precise enough to present itself as a rational possibility.

If a person finds it rationally possible to be the DIVINE MESSAGE OF GOD, and yet does not try to learn more about it, then I don't see his excuse.

again, a sound response



and with this....



I think Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani hit it on the dot when he said:

One is responsible for believing in and acting on whatever
one knows.

And that is basically the entire answer.


i think u have hit the nail on the head.





my only other real question would be.....are these ur own reflections or have they any support from ulama? and can u name these ulama and provide references if possible?


jazakallah khayr for ur time and help.

Omar HH
10-03-2005, 12:15 AM
m

my only other real question would be.....are these ur own reflections

Absolutely not.


or have they any support from ulama? and can u name these ulama and provide references if possible?


jazakallah khayr for ur time and help.

Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani explained this to me. His references are:

Sharh Sullam al-Munawraqi by al-Damanhuri

[{al-Mayyarah Sharh, for Ibn `Ashir's Murshid, lines 21-28}]
[{`Ilm al-Usul al-Fiqh, Abd al-Wahhab Khallaf, Section
on Maturidi School.}]

Sharh Mayyarah for Murshid, verse 10-13

About belief being a choice;

The truth will remain the truth regardless of whether we believe it or
not. Belief is a choice which we are offered - a choice if made
correctly
will lead to eternal bliss and a choice which if made incorrectly will
lead to eternal pain.

qul al-haqqu min rabbika fa man sha'a ful yu'min wa man sha'a fa
l-yakfur.
inna a`tadna li l-dhalimina naaran ahata bihim saradiquha.

"Say: The truth is from your Lord; so, whoever wants let him believe
and
whoever wants let him disbelieve. Indeed, We have prepared for the
wrong-doers a Fire whose covering flames will engulf them."

[{Surah Kahf, verse 29}]

Jazakallahu Khayrun

Nafeesa
11-03-2005, 06:33 PM
U ppl are so clever man

Omar HH
11-03-2005, 06:38 PM
U ppl are so clever man

Rather, the clever ones are the Ullema of Ahlul Sunnah wa' Jama'ah ;)

Ahmed
11-03-2005, 07:24 PM
http://www.shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/3934.php

ImCool
12-03-2005, 04:28 PM
I think Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani hit it on the dot when he said:

One is responsible for believing in and acting on whatever
one knows.

And that is basically the entire answer.


Salamalekom everyone,

I was just browsing the net and came across this forum and it seemed interesting, so here I am. Am looking forward to insightful discussions... :D

In relation to the quote above, I tend to disagree with it. Lets take the following example for instance. A non-muslim (with atheist parents) grows up in an environment that is based around drugs, alcohol, sex, etc etc, and throughout that persons life, all he grows up to 'know' is practically nothing in terms of religion. The only contact with any religion he has is when buying presents for his gf in christmas, seeing 'muslim' suicide bombers on tv, and knowing that all jews are stingy with money. His morals tell him that for money, its okay to do anything. That is what he has been brought up to believe in and thats all he knows. That person decides to become an assassin and for money, kills innocent muslim leaders. He spends all his life doing this until he dies. Although the scenario may seem far fetched, its used to question the validity of 'that' quote.

So under that theory, this person would be given 'amnesty' or not be held responsible because he was only acting on what he knows and believes in, which was 'its okay to do anything for money'.

I dont think that is correct to simply say that such people will be forgiven. At the end of the day, Allah will decide and He may forgive such people but I dont think we can say that such people will be forgiven. Allah knows best.

I think that as humans, we are all given the capacity to 'ponder' about the meaning of life and whether there is a "Higher existence". I cant imagine anyone going through life (unless they died at a young age or were disabled which is a different matter) without "pondering" such a thought. Everyone has the intellect to realise that such a "Higher existence" exists. At the stage of pondering, they have a choice, to believe in that thought or to reject it. That is the critical point. Thus, in the scenario I mentioned, in my opinion (which isnt worth much in terms of a source for you to believe) it depends on whether that person decided to 'reject' the thought of there being a "Higher Existence". If they decided to reject it, then I dont see them going to Heaven or being forgiven on the day of judgment. That is because it was in their intellectual capacity to accept that, but they chose to reject it instead.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I think that whether or not non-muslims will go to heaven depends on three things. Whether that person has been exposed to Islam, whether that person believes in a "Higher Existence", and also whether that person follows what he/she has been brought up to believe in (in terms of people who have a religion other than Islam).

Thus, for people that do have a religion other than Islam, it depends on two things, whether they have been exposed to Islam (level of exposure is debatable) and whether they follow what they've been brought up to believe in. If they have been exposed to Islam "enough" but chose to reject it, then they wont go to Heaven on the day of Judgment. (I say "on the day of Judgment" mainly because Allah may decide to send them to Jannah later on if they repent...). However, if they are not exposed to Islam 'enough' or never, then it will depend on whether or not they follow their own religion. If they did infact follow their own religion, then it is possible that Allah may forgive them on the day of Judgment.

As for the people who do not have a religion, then back to the point I made at the start, it depends on whether they chose to accept the idea of there being a "High Existence" when that thought crossed their mind.
If they did, it is possible that Allah may forgive them.


Saying all that, I have stated that such and such people will not go to heaven on the day of judgment. I dont think any human can say this with certainty as Allah may forgive anyone He pleases. Allah knows best.

Mossy
12-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Moved to in-depth section where it belongs.

I think the term amnesty needs to be clearly defined wrt to your example.

Omar HH
08-06-2005, 09:02 AM
So Mufti Desai says that those non-Muslims who did not hear the message of Islam are going to hellfire?

Omar HH
08-06-2005, 09:15 AM
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00004930.aspx

كمال جلكس
08-01-2012, 04:56 PM
see the post by faqir above yours

mffhere
23-02-2012, 07:29 AM
Asalamu Alaikum,

taken from Askimam website Fatwa # 17525

Title
It says in the quran that some people will abide in hell forever and never die. My understanding of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime. What crimes could someone possibly commit to deserve hell forever?

Question


An eye for an eye?



It says in the quran that some people will abide in hell forever and never die. My understanding of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime. What crimes could someone possibly commit to deserve hell forever? Someone like Hitler may have killed 6 million people but it is still a finite amount. How would an infinite punishment be justified?



On the flip side what good could anyone do to deserve heaven forever? In 70 years of life you can only do finite amount of good even considering sadqua jaar’ia (sawaab after you die in form of charity or childrens dua) Is Allah rewarding the good people over what is justifiable at the expense of the bad people?



Answer


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

In answer to your query of “what crimes could someone possibly commit to deserve hell forever,” you should understand that there are only two crimes that dictate eternal damnation. One is kufr and the other shirk; the latter being more specific form of the former. For every other crime or sin, Allah Ta’ala will forgive the person on condition that he or she is a believer. Allah Ta‘ala states in the Holy Qur'ān,

] إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَغْفِرُ أَنْ يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ [

“Verily, Allah will not forgive partners being ascribed to him but He will forgive anything less than that for whomsoever He wishes”



] إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَمَاتُوا وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُولَئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (161) خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا لَا يُخَفَّفُ عَنْهُمُ الْعَذَابُ وَلَا هُمْ يُنْظَرُونَ [

“Those who disbelieve and pass away as disbelievers; the curse of Allah, the angels and mankind altogether will be upon them. The will abide therein (hell) eternally; neither will the punishment be lightened for them nor will they be given any respite.”

Allāmah Suyūtī, who Allāmah al-Atāsī subsequently quotes in his commentary on al-Majallah, has mentioned a maxim that states that a person’s intention has a great role to play in issuing juristic verdicts. They quote the following Ahādīth of Rasūlullah صلى الله عليه و سلم :

“(The reward of) Actions are based on one’s intentions” and “The intention of a believer is better than his actions”.

Based on this maxim and purport of the Ahādīth, Allāmah Suyūtī states, “verily a believer will eternally remain in heaven despite the fact that he obeys (worships) Allah only for the duration of his life because his intention is that if were to live eternally, he would persist as a believer forever. Therefore, he will be rewarded for that with eternal paradise. Similarly, a disbeliever will abide permanently in the fire despite the fact that he disobeys Allah only for the duration of his life because he intends disbelief for as long as he lives.”
و في اشباه السيوطي : و قد قيل في قوله صلى الله عليه و سلم : نية المؤمن خير من عمله أن المؤمن يخلد في الجنة و إن أطاع الله مدة حياته فقط لأن نيته أنه لو في أبد الآباد لاستمر على الإيمان فجوزي على ذلك بالخلود في الجنة كما أن الكافر يخلد في النار و إن لم يعص الله إلا مدة حياته فقط لأن نيته الكفر ما عاش (شرح المجلة للاتاسي ج 1 ص 15 , رشيدية)

It is important to bear in mind however, that this is not the underlying reason why Allah bestows the believers with eternal paradise and disbelievers with eternal damnation; this is merely one rationale (hikmah) provided by the ‘Ulamā on this issue. The real reason is the decree and order of Allah Ta‘ala as mentioned in Ayāt quoted above. As Muslims, we believe in Allah Ta‘ala, His promises and His Sifāt (attributes). Allah Ta‘ala is al-Hakīm (the most-Wise) and al-Adl (the most-Just). Our feeble minds cannot fathom the supreme and endless wisdom and knowledge of Allah Ta‘alā and His actions. Allah’s knowledge and wisdom are infinite and our frail minds are limited and finite. How can it be possible then to encompass the infinite wisdom of Allah with a finite and frail scale, namely, the understanding of man? We should whole-heartedly submit to His decree and affirm His promises by the mere fact that it was sounded in the Holy Qur'ān as is the demand of īmān and ‘abdiyyah (servitude) and not attempt to rationalize and justify everything. We are not judges over Allah’s actions; Allah is the Ahkam al-Hakimīn (the supreme Judge) over our actions. We should spend less time trying to justify Allah’s actions and spend our time justifying our own, as we will be the one’s judged, not Allah.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam u Alaikum

Ml. Yusuf bin Yaqub,
Student Darul Iftaa

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah