What makes you scared of imams/ulama?

[eat-halal guy]

:salam:

I've often noticed that many young Muslims (and some older ones as well) are afraid of Imams and Ulama (scholars - with good reason in some cases). I'm just wondering though....what is it about them that specifically scares people or turns them away from Imams/Ulama?

Please don't mention any names or specifics about any Imam or Alim - just general comments.

:jazak: :)

Wassalam,
Ziad

[Usman]

I used to get scared of em, duh.But then again, I once went to Ashraful Madaris, and it was no more. I read a saying of Maulana Shah Hakeem Muhammad Akhtar Sahib (Damat Barakatuhum), "Induldging into the sins involving "shamelessness", makes one afraid to join the majalis of Ahlullah", so giving that up, Im no more ,Alhamdulillah.

[ibn_abdullah]

Salaam

Depends on who. If i know them to be extremely pious then i'm scared due to my sins. I feel as though they can see right through me and look into my heart, just with a glance. So that shames me....

Was salaam

[abdul518ca]

^that's true. My frend, lived 19-20 years of his life completely ignorant, then became practising. He went to Vancouver with a Jammat, there he met the Ameer of England. The first time the Ameer saw him, he slapped him in the face out nowhere. ;) I'm guessing it was because of his excessive sins he had done before.

[Zubair]

salam
the thing that i dont like bout my masjid is that there is only 2 dars, one of them is one hour long and the topic is not good, and the other is 2 hours which is not that good either. no fiqh class, tafsir, aqidah nothing special. Anyone have any suggestions to do something about this? And one of the imam is kind of freaky to me.
salam

[abdul518ca]

^That things happens at our Mosque too. No Aqida is taught. Only Tafseer, but the Tafseer class hasn't happened for the last 2-3 months. Last year, we had a Hanafi Fiqh class; but these GhayrMuqallids just can't keep their mouths shut, so the Imam stopped it. :mad:

[eat-halal guy]

Interesting thoughts. Any suggestions as to what imams/ulama can do to appear less scary or to appeal more to young people?

[abdul518ca]

^Play sports with them. Our old Imam used to play cricket with us, we had to 2-3 Madrassah teachers, and the one who played cricket with the kids was the most loved by them. :p

[VeiledOne]

^that's true. My frend, lived 19-20 years of his life completely ignorant, then became practising. He went to Vancouver with a Jammat, there he met the Ameer of England. The first time the Ameer saw him, he slapped him in the face out nowhere. ;) I'm guessing it was because of his excessive sins he had done before.


The ameer slapped your friend out of no where?

ok that is really scaryy

[abdul518ca]

^Yeah. This other brother went to Vancouver also, they were praying Maghrib or something, the person beside him gets a phone call, he picks it up WHILE PRAYING, and says "Can you call back, I'm in the 2nd rak'at" Vancouver is not a good place to go in Jammat. :cheesygri

Ahsan, I agree with what you said also. Screw politics. They should focus on Islah only. The Imams of the Masjid I went to in Pakistan all used to pray Cricket after Jummah with the kids. :p

[Goldi]

The ameer slapped your friend out of no where?

ok that is really scaryy :$

It's Hafiz Patel, he's harmless. I bet he did one of those cute slaps where it's not really all that vicious.

[VeiledOne]

^Yeah. This other brother went to Vancouver also, they were praying Maghrib or something, the person beside him gets a phone call, he picks it up WHILE PRAYING, and says "Can you call back, I'm in the 2nd rak'at" Vancouver is not a good place to go in Jammat. :cheesygri

Ahsan, I agree with what you said also. Screw politics. They should focus on Islah only. The Imams of the Masjid I went to in Pakistan all used to pray Cricket after Jummah with the kids. :p


ok yeah that deserves a slap! Picking up a phone call while praying..

[abdul518ca]

Most of the Maulans are OLD immigrants(40-45yrs), who got no clue about this culture. They come from Indo-Pak, speak tooti-phooti english, like before Salah, my old Imam used to say "Fill all the gapSES". :cheesygri We should get young teachers like 25-30 years old, who know this culture and who speak the "youth's language". Importing Imams from South Africa and England should be a good idea.

I don't know if 'compromise' would be allowed, but to appear less scary, the Moulvis and Maulans shoudn't be too hard. They should work in "steps". Like don't just say "It's a must to pray 5 times a day in the Masjid". First tell him the importnace of prayer, then tell him the the importance of praying 5 times a day, then tell him the importance of praying on time, then only should you go on to tell him to pray 5 times with Jamaah.

[eat-halal guy]

We should get young teachers like 25-30 years old, who know this culture and who speak the "youth's language".


We're seeing more and more of that in larger centers such as Toronto (Montreal's getting there - dunno about the rest), as 2nd generation Canadian-born imams are hired at Masajid (as many major Masajid now have multiple Imams).

[maaz]

yea alhumdulilla, the tides are finally changing. i had a maulana who beat kids for reasons that weren't even the kids fault. pretty messed up. but yea, just chill with the teenagers, spread salam, make a few jokes.

The Mangera bros in TO are real cool.

[Haamilul Qur'aan]

Importing Imams from South Africa and England should be a good idea.
We actually have South African Maulana's come from SA to become Imam's at the masaajid here [we've had two so far, :alhamd:]. They really seem to 'click' with the youth; most South Africans are pretty laid back and have a sense of humor which seems to attract the youth more and more, :mash:.

But also, I don't feel that having ONLY young Maulana's will be good either. I have seen many cases where they want to go and do their own thing, and never really take naseehah from older 'ulema which can create a BIG problem. Elder 'ulema know more; it's a given.

There should be a balance between the two.

[eat-halal guy]

But also, I don't feel that having ONLY young Maulana's will be good either. I have seen many cases where they want to go and do their own thing, and never really take naseehah from older 'ulema which can create a BIG problem. Elder 'ulema know more; it's a given.

There should be a balance between the two.


Very true. Totally agree. I've noticed some things...but I'd rather keep 'em to myself. But :alhamd:, at most places in Toronto where there are multiple imams, the young ones are teamed up with an elder...so they're getting on the job training until it's time for the buzurg to retire.

[abdul518ca]

^yeah. Mosques should keep 2 Imams. One should be OLD, experience elder like 45-55 years old to handle the older people. The other should be a young one, who was either born in the West or lived most his life here.

This way, you can handle both the old and youth audiences.

It would be even better if the Imam had a wife who was also an Alima, so she can work with the ladies more personally.

[abdul518ca]

South African Maulanas are cool. :cheesygri

[maaz]

yea, at medina masjid, maulana khalil just retired. i never knew they had a retirement dinners for imams. it was pretty funny, just last week actually. he very much an elder, been in toronto for 30-odd years, well respected all over the city. mashallah.

after a night of nazms, short speechs (including one by our very own, shaykh nazim) then there was dinner. the nazms and naats were pretty cool. i think medina masjid should have a poetry nite like twice an year or something. i had a blast.

now its kinda younger guys running the show, including shaykh nazim's younger bro (mufti abdullah) who also teaches at SP. so yeah. as you can see i love toronto and medina masjid. its not the city or the masjid, its the ppl and atmosphere. in ramdhan we had maulana abdur-rahim from Bury, UK. man was he ever amazing. wish i could sit in his gatherings for years on end.

[Goldi]

yea, at medina masjid, maulana khalil just retired. i never knew they had a retirement dinners for imams. it was pretty funny, just last week actually. he very much an elder, been in toronto for 30-odd years, well respected all over the city. mashallah.

after a night of nazms, short speechs (including one by our very own, shaykh nazim) then there was dinner. the nazms and naats were pretty cool. i think medina masjid should have a poetry nite like twice an year or something. i had a blast.

now its kinda younger guys running the show, including shaykh nazim's younger bro (mufti abdullah) who also teaches at SP. so yeah. as you can see i love toronto and medina masjid. its not the city or the masjid, its the ppl and atmosphere. in ramdhan we had maulana abdur-rahim from Bury, UK. man was he ever amazing. wish i could sit in his gatherings for years on end.

hi, im jealous.

thanks.

[abdul518ca]

We had a retirement dinner, or a resignation dinner for our old Imam 2-3 years back.

[maaz]

yo goldi. comon' guy MOVE to toronto. there ain't no action in steeltown!!! shaykh eat halal, you too. you don't even have a baseball team anymore!!! alhumdulilla, i should make shukr to Allah that i live in TO (no not for the baseball team)

but actually once you're here, you wonder how its like, in the REALLY muslim areas of england,such as bury, dewbury, how'd it would be to live in chicago really close to shaykh husain sattar, or perhaps in cali near zaytuna. or maybe in the marakaz of the subcontinent. or near shaykh sulyman's madrassa. better still, in the holy cities of mecca and medina.

not only that, i love to sit close with these shaykhs, to immerse myself in their knowledge, for them to guide me through the most sacred of hadiths and the quran. how would it be to have been able to sit with our beloved prophet (peace be upon him)? would we be scared they way we're scared of some imams? would hold the ill feelings in our hearts as we do to our imams? or would we cry, weep tears and tell him we couldn't live upto and don't deserve the title of his ummah, and just cry some more, out of love and happiness?

May Allah help us to become steadfast, and enable us to traverse this land of his to find the gems of his ummah and to learn from them. amen.

[eat-halal guy]

shaykh eat halal, you too. you don't even have a baseball team anymore!!!

Poor Expos. :(
(Washington Times) (http://journalismjourney.blogspot.com/2004/10/goodbye-expos-washington-times.html)

I would but I'm just realizing that I'm not a big city type of guy anymore (madrasa did that). Though I could manage if I hadta.


May Allah help us to become steadfast, and enable us to traverse this land of his to find the gems of his ummah and to learn from them. amen.


Ameen

[eat-halal guy]

:mash: it's nice to see that the majority isn't freaked out by their imam/alim. :alhamd: Maybe it's because of the demographic we're dealing it. Perhaps the results would be different on a different web site.

[Muawiyah]

there are some `ulama and shuyukh who have great r`ub, this discourages the people with little or no talb and leaves more time to the talibeen, pros and cons in everything.

[Nafeesa]

Im not scared of alim ppl or ppl of high status, knowledge ppl.... Just put off by them, When i wasnt practicing I wanted help from some religious ppl but they completly dissed me, seems to me like religious ppl dnt wanna know u when ur "starting" to practice, only wen ur there. Shame that some ppl have to go thru it on their own. When u have so little knowledge of Islam u tend to believe everything u read n hear, n it leaves u vulnerable, u dnt know what to believe. Im not saying all religious ppl are bad.

Some times wen I asked religious ppl for help they just sed Ill do dua for u, duas are gud and hidaya comes from Allah but wen ur going down the path u need strong Muslim ppl to help u along the way n save u from misguidance, not get pushed away which is what happened to me. Therefore I have a negative perspective on some religious ppl who cud have helped but didnt maybe it was pride, or maybe they thought they were too gud to help, or perhaps they simply cudnt be bothered.

[Haamilul Qur'aan]

When i wasnt practicing I wanted help from some religious ppl but they completly dissed me, seems to me like religious ppl dnt wanna know u when ur "starting" to practice, only wen ur there. Shame that some ppl have to go thru it on their own. When u have so little knowledge of Islam u tend to believe everything u read n hear, n it leaves u vulnerable, u dnt know what to believe.
I know exactly what you're talking about and unfortunately this is very, very common. I've been witness to so many instances where sisters have been given dirty looks, or are treated in an ill-mannered way, all because of the fact that they don't wear hijaab or their dresscode isn't up to standards 'modesty'-wise. It's really heartbreaking to see that instead of bringing people closer to Islam, we are either indifferent and things remain stagnant, or people are being pushed farther away.

I am aware this line is used often, but I'll repeat it anyway; Muslims need to wake-up. We will never progress if we're going to be closed and reserved, only open to those who are pious and God-fearing. Islam is all about tolerance, and not just towards non-muslims; Muslims seem to be in much more need of it, especially the youngsters. We all (especially myself) need to practice being more warm, welcoming, and friendly, accepting everyone as they are and doing are utmost to aid them in any way possible. We must realize that each and every person has the ability to turn to Allah, to tuck into the folds of Islam (by the Will of Allah), but it is our duty to take the step forward and draw them near, not distance ourselves from them.

This is Islam.

Insha'Allah, with time and constant effort, things will change. Hopefully for the better.

[Ahmed]

The ameer slapped your friend out of no where?

ok that is really scaryy :$
could you please clarify this as ,i can find out who it was,it wont be the ammeer of england im sure hes in his late 8o,s,and behaves like a kind grandad.


post regarding someone saying they were slapped by ameer of england.

[abdul518ca]

When i wasnt practicing I wanted help from some religious ppl but they completly dissed me, seems to me like religious ppl dnt wanna know u when ur "starting" to practice, only wen ur there. Shame that some ppl have to go thru it on their own. When u have so little knowledge of Islam u tend to believe everything u read n hear, n it leaves u vulnerable, u dnt know what to believe.
:$ :$ :$ I never realised this. I don't even talk, or even say salam, to non-practising brothers...but will insh'Allah try to do it from now.

jazak'Allah for raising this point. :(

[Ahmed]

It's Hafiz Patel, he's harmless. I bet he did one of those cute slaps where it's not really all that vicious.
if its hafesaab,its harmless,and playful

[seeking knowledge]

Interesting thoughts. Any suggestions as to what imams/ulama can do to appear less scary or to appeal more to young people?
Alhamdu-lillah, The imam that taught me Quran was really kind and loved children, he used to give us sweets to encourage us. (Typical me, give me some food n i'm happy! :) ) We also were taken on trips to Regents Park mosque in london, which was amazing!

I guess it has something to do one's character and methods of teaching! Teaching Islam is no joking matter so i can understand why some are very strict, i've met imam's that totally scare me out of my wits, so i totally sympathise with ibn Abdullah.

In my opinion, the kinder the Imam is, the easier it is to approach them!

[Abu Suliman]

has anyone read the autobiography of Hazrat Shaykh Ul hadith Muhammad Zakariya(r.a.h)he says that hes father use to give him a real beating at the time he says he was angry why he hits him and later in life he says for every slap my father gave me a dua comes out from my heart for him because of him iam what iam today.
we should take everythimg in moderation today because of the enviroment and the children if we hit them they will probaly will be put off from studying.
and have hatred for the ulema.also we should also sometimes use the odd slap on the back to keep them in line.

[VeiledOne]

has anyone read the autobiography of Hazrat Shaykh Ul hadith Muhammad Zakariya(r.a.h)he says that hes father use to give him a real beating at the time he says he was angry why he hits him and later in life he says for every slap my father gave me a dua comes out from my heart for him because of him iam what iam today.
we should take everythimg in moderation today because of the enviroment and the children if we hit them they will probaly will be put off from studying.
and have hatred for the ulema.also we should also sometimes use the odd slap on the back to keep them in line.

Aap Beti....

Right, I read the english translation of it. Some of those beatings were really scary. He was really thankful to all those beatings though. I'm not sure how that will work in today's society. I think the child would call the cops!!

[Idrees]

Aap Beti....

Right, I read the english translation of it. Some of those beatings were really scary. He was really thankful to all those beatings though. I'm not sure how that will work in today's society. I think the child would call the cops!!

i dont think they'll call the police, i think theyd burn your house down

[Jawharah]

Assalaamu alaikum,

I'm not really scared of alims/imaams.. But my own dad is an imaam, so thats why I guess. :D

Seriously, a lot of the kids in our masjid tend to like my dad cuz he talks and laughs with them, and doesn't make them feel inferior or anything. Some imaams are just mean to kids for no reason, and thats weird..

[Goldi]

has anyone read the autobiography of Hazrat Shaykh Ul hadith Muhammad Zakariya(r.a.h)he says that hes father use to give him a real beating at the time he says he was angry why he hits him and later in life he says for every slap my father gave me a dua comes out from my heart for him because of him iam what iam today.
we should take everythimg in moderation today because of the enviroment and the children if we hit them they will probaly will be put off from studying.
and have hatred for the ulema.also we should also sometimes use the odd slap on the back to keep them in line.

remind me to comment on this.

[Abu Suliman]

Aap Beti....

Right, I read the english translation of it. Some of those beatings were really scary. He was really thankful to all those beatings though. I'm not sure how that will work in today's society. I think the child would call the cops!!

Iam not saying that we should use those kind of beating today,times have changed the kids today will complain if imam shouts at them let alone if he beats them.i know fathers who went and beat up the imam afetr he hit there child.
also this is true story a father had a child who was expelled from state school because of hes behaviour,so he sent him to a madrassah here in u.k when the ustaads complained to the father that your child uses foul language and we will expell him the father pleaded no dont send him home please do what you like beat him chain him but please dont send him home so the ustaads use to take pity and did not expell him this happened for few times.
once a ustaad heard him using foul language and he slapped him the child phoned hes father the father told the police and the police surrounded the madrassah arrested the ustaad and this the same father who said do what you like with him but dont send him home.
so as parents if the imaam does hit our child and it is in moderation then we should not get emotional and go and pick up a fight with imaam we should tell our child off and say if you are misbehaving i will tell imam to next time beat you harder then they will learn not to mess about in masjid & maktabs.

[Ansari]

I know exactly what you're talking about and unfortunately this is very, very common. I've been witness to so many instances where sisters have been given dirty looks, or are treated in an ill-mannered way, all because of the fact that they don't wear hijaab or their dresscode isn't up to standards 'modesty'-wise. It's really heartbreaking to see that instead of bringing people closer to Islam, we are either indifferent and things remain stagnant, or people are being pushed farther away.


Is it wrong to hate a sin which is committed openly? Will you smile at a woman who is dressed halfnaked and is a prostitue?

[abdul518ca]

^but you do have to bring them closer to Deen, don't you? And the only way you can do that is by smiling, etc.

"Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

We can hate their deeds, but we can't hate their beings. Who knows, this girl might turn into a WaliUllah tomorrow?

We may just be the ones who Allah chooses as the means to guide that girl/boy.

Main bohat laaghir tha, jeenay ko koi imkaan na thaa
Wo farisha tha koi shayed, koi insaan na tha

Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 159:

"It was by the Mercy of Alllah that you were lenient with them [O Muhammad]. Had you been stern and hard-hearted, they would surely have dispersed from around you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them in the conduct of [communal] affairs; and when you are resolved, put your trust in Allah, Allah loves those that trust [in Him]."

[VeiledOne]

Iam not saying that we should use those kind of beating today,times have changed the kids today will complain if imam shouts at them let alone if he beats them.i know fathers who went and beat up the imam afetr he hit there child.
also this is true story a father had a child who was expelled from state school because of hes behaviour,so he sent him to a madrassah here in u.k when the ustaads complained to the father that your child uses foul language and we will expell him the father pleaded no dont send him home please do what you like beat him chain him but please dont send him home so the ustaads use to take pity and did not expell him this happened for few times.
once a ustaad heard him using foul language and he slapped him the child phoned hes father the father told the police and the police surrounded the madrassah arrested the ustaad and this the same father who said do what you like with him but dont send him home.
so as parents if the imaam does hit our child and it is in moderation then we should not get emotional and go and pick up a fight with imaam we should tell our child off and say if you are misbehaving i will tell imam to next time beat you harder then they will learn not to mess about in masjid & maktabs.

Yes. I agree. Many kids these days don't have respect for their ustaad at all. I feel parents spoil their kids when they start siding with their own child instead of making them realize they did somethign wrong.

I do think kids can be disclipined w/o the physical aspect involved even if its a light slap. However, I might sound violent saying this, but some kids do deserve a smack sometimes atleast from their parents.

[maaz]

see, i think parents should be BETTER parents. kids only need a smack because the parent is down to the last option, aka 'smacking'.

we should really try to exhuast all other non-violent methods to disicple our children, inshallah. and honestly, real disciple is when the kids goes whack, but if they brought the child up properly, it never has to come to the good ol' smack.

but i think this is about imams & ulema, but same thing. do better tarbiyya or find better disicple techiniques. thats my feeling...........but sometimes i do see kids that just need a smack, but thats only cus the parent failed earlier in the road.

[VeiledOne]

true- don't let it get to the point when you'd have to hit them to disicpline them.

[abdushakur]

when i was younger i could never relate with the maulanas and the maulana types bcos of their lack of dress-sense!

its true. i wasnt 'scared' of them per se, just avoided them bcos they werent cool and seemed only to be able to talk about religion and nothing else.

there are still many maulanas like that but alhamdulillah younger ones who who are like us layman are coming thru...

i personally believe that u gotta reach out to ur 'target' audience.....u cannot have an aloof or 'other' attitude.


a simple thing like wearing a pressed, pristine white jubba and smart, clean hat/topi goes a long way to attracting the fashion concious youth.
plus having a warm,sincere smile and speaking in the lingo of the kids.

[eat-halal guy]

i personally believe that u gotta reach out to ur 'target' audience.....u cannot have an aloof or 'other' attitude.


a simple thing like wearing a pressed, pristine white jubba and smart, clean hat/topi goes a long way to attracting the fashion concious youth.
plus having a warm,sincere smile and speaking in the lingo of the kids.


totally agree...was just talking about that to abby on the way to lunch.

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Hmm...well unveiled sisters or [for the sisters] da brother shouldn't be looked at anyway by their non mahram brothers and sisters (respectively for each gender)...however we should exhort them to embrace Hijaab...don't just say ahh who cares...whatever...their life my life...don't be scared to offend them dudes + dudesses...we all really need the push...

I mean, the first moment we'll be like...omg! how dare she/he...but then later Insha'allah when the Hidayah to adorn it enters our hearts you know it'll be good...but of course exhorting them means EXHORTING not throwing em nasty looks and using our tongues rather sharply (ve sistas tend to do dat a lot to each other) and don't like use physical force either...

Honestly, Imams + Alims don't freak me out. I'm more freaked out by Alimas...not because they're mean...its just a psychological thing...I apologise for walking in front of them accidentally in the hallway...of course I get a really odd look every time I do that...and some kind of give me a strange smile ('you're weird ^o) )

Hmm...many Alims out to take that whole 'reach to the youth' approach...kind of like Imam Ziaullah Khan approach...I severely doubt anybody would be freaked out by him...

[Ibn Umaysh]

As salamu alaikum

I think their is also a dif between 'ulema and preachers. Ulema, in the real sense of the word, must act to what they know, and thus, relaxing on the laws is not reflective of their knowledge. Usually, people get intimidated by 'ulema who know more, because their practise is very often more strict. Its the speakers that can be easy to approach and so on. I think in order to not be intimidating (other than if you have a very soft look or noor on your face), some compromises have to be made(depending on who your audience is), but I am not sure if I would want to make some of them, because not only do you have to watch out for your own imaan, but the fact that many peopel may ceiling out at your level, or you may get comfortable and not try to improve.

[eat-halal guy]

It's possible to dress sunnah and be stylish. Who says sunnah dress can't be cool?

[Freeway]

Salaam

The reason youth get scared of the ulama and don't like to come to the Masjid is because they fell that the Ulama are going to tell them off and get mad at them because the way they are look or dress. The other reason why the youth don't come to the Masjid is because every time they come there are who people start talking about them behind there back.
We need more younger Ulama in the Masjid so that they can relate to the youth at a certain extent. We should be happy when a brother comes to the Majid who has not come there for along time or who had no contact with the Masjid ever.
This is just my opinon

Salaam
Freeway

[Kareem]

i do tht all the time..

a muscati topi.. an embroidered kurta... and baggy (not the ghetto type) trousers.... and top tht off with shades ;)
and some nice kicks :D

[Crono]

i don't paticularly like my masjid becasue most of the people there are Pharacon (Nation of Islam) or Salafi...

there are a few real muslims though..but not enouhg, and i don't elarn anyhting...most of the people at the masjid say 'read this book..read that book'...which is prolly the worst way to elarn...becasue you could misinterpert soemthing and not know it..and actually start to believe the misinterpertation

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Completely agree.

A couple of years back, I happened to attend a MSA Conference in Philadelphia and Maulana Ibrahim Memon (Principal of the Darul Uloom Al Madania in Buffalo) happened to be one of the speakers there. The audience was filled with youth. Maulana Ibrahim Memon was dressed in FULL Sunnah attire throughout the conference. His views did not always coincide with the other speakers, but subhan'Allah the audience was impressed by the Maulana. Everyone was like "who is he?"
Many of these people were newly getting into islam, but they were so impressed by his ability to speak on the haq and up hold the Sunnah. Although, I have an idea , but I'm not sure what it was exactly about him that was so great (masha'Allah) that he was able to reach out to the youth and so many people changed their views that day. May Allah (SWT) reward him. ameen.

So, I personally don't think it might be right for the Ulema to change their sense of style to relate to the youth.

Maulana Ibrahim Memon is an awesome speaker Masha'allah.

You can listen to his lectures here: http://www.madania.org

(Hope we're talking about the same Maulana Ibrahim)

That reminds me of the RIS conference. When Shaikh Sulaiman Moola went up there...we were pretty impressed with him too although some of us didn't know who he was.

(Course I did...that lecture at the Youth Tarbiyah conference last year was magnificent Masha'allah!)

[Ibn Umaysh]

Those two shaykhs are very good, Alhumdulillah.

Shaykh Sulayman had people in tears for his talk on forgiveness of rasool Allah Sall Allahu alaihi wasallam.

[murasaki]

Asalaamualaikum

I think in many ways, women are more at a disadvantage when dealing with their local Imaam than men are - we don't really get to see them as people (or play cricket with em :D) but many times the situation is very contrived; all the ladies will hear a speech from the Imaam, possibly with him being hidden behind a screen, then some questions that have been written down will be passed to him, and a faceless edict will be issued from behind the curtain.

That's why I would really love for there to be more female scholars of a high standard, so we can develop a loving, sisterly relationship with the people that guide us the same way the brothers are fortunate enough to do so.

I don't think scholars would have more credibility if they dressed an spoke like the 'yoof', but I really think an ability to demonstrate clarity of speech and a caring interest in society is paramount, rather than going down the road of dissing Western civilisation, which does happen sometimes.

ma asalaamah and take care

[Ahmed]

if more ulamaah,tableeghis,integrated in the community and behaved "normal" it would help :cheesygri .also having a friendly disposition and talking to people ,not just when you want them to listen to you :D ,but to listen to them instead .creating a rappor ,with the community :D

[tazkiyyah]

I used to get scared of em, duh.But then again, I once went to Ashraful Madaris, and it was no more. I read a saying of Maulana Shah Hakeem Muhammad Akhtar Sahib (Damat Barakatuhum), "Induldging into the sins involving "shamelessness", makes one afraid to join the majalis of Ahlullah", so giving that up, Im no more ,Alhamdulillah.

Hakeem akhtar sahib gives a very good example of ulema.
He says ulema r like kebabs.Those that dont have their tazkiyyah made
are like raw kebabs.They make u cry.They give you a bad stomach.And they leave a bad taste in your mouth

The ulema who have tazkiyyah made are roasted kebabs.They make you cry..but good tears.They make you feel good.They are nutritious and tasty!

[Crystal Eyes]

:salam:

I've often noticed that many young Muslims (and some older ones as well) are afraid of Imams and Ulama (scholars - with good reason in some cases). I'm just wondering though....what is it about them that specifically scares people or turns them away from Imams/Ulama?

Please don't mention any names or specifics about any Imam or Alim - just general comments.

:jazak: :)

Wassalam,
Ziad

Wa Alaykum salam,

'afraid' and 'fear' should be expressed towards the creator only....i do not fear any man-kind but rather i have respect for them.

[beyondmatter]

Asalaamualaikum

I think in many ways, women are more at a disadvantage when dealing with their local Imaam than men are - we don't really get to see them as people (or play cricket with em :D) but many times the situation is very contrived; all the ladies will hear a speech from the Imaam, possibly with him being hidden behind a screen, then some questions that have been written down will be passed to him, and a faceless edict will be issued from behind the curtain.

That's why I would really love for there to be more female scholars of a high standard, so we can develop a loving, sisterly relationship with the people that guide us the same way the brothers are fortunate enough to do so.

I don't think scholars would have more credibility if they dressed an spoke like the 'yoof', but I really think an ability to demonstrate clarity of speech and a caring interest in society is paramount, rather than going down the road of dissing Western civilisation, which does happen sometimes.

ma asalaamah and take care

Firstly, I don't understand why the women have to be hidden on such occasion as in this case a speech. Is this suppose to be religiously imposed. By the way, it's not the case of free mixing of both sexes where you can get promiscuously close or scandalous, for example like you're in a disco or something. I was wondering, why is it ok when you're in Masjidil Haram or during the tawaf of the kaaba?

[eat-halal guy]

'afraid' and 'fear' should be expressed towards the creator only....

:salam:

You're right - it shouldn't be expressed towards anyone other than the Creator. However, that's often not the case, especially in today's world. Sometimes, it's a sense of fear out of awe or respect, among other things.

Wassalam,
Ziad

[Crystal Eyes]

:salam:

You're right - it shouldn't be expressed towards anyone other than the Creator. However, that's often not the case, especially in today's world. Sometimes, it's a sense of fear out of awe or respect, among other things.

Wassalam,
Ziad

Wa Alaykum salam,

I think it is a different fear one holds for the creator and another for a mere human. The terminology is used to express such remorse to both humans and Allah (swt) leading to alot of misunderstanding and confusion i guess. Furthermore, in society fear is at its peak so trying not to feel 'fear' is almost inevitable.

[ImamGhazzaali]

:salam:

Their behaviour and look is such that it makes me not even talk to them. I am not saying that they are neglecting the community or anything like that. Their face also gives out the message to me 'Do not Disturb, Leave me alone, I am a Scholar, you are not' etc,.

:ws:

[sudoku]

:salam:

Yes lots of scholars are unfortunately like that, I can only remember one or two friendly scholars from when I was young. When I moved to South Africa however, I realized that the few Ulama I knew did not make up the world. Sure there are grumps everywhere... but I have come to know of some who are very approachable, will answer questions, will alleviate fears and stress. You have to search until you find the aalim you have munasibat with and then stick to them. So for Fiqh, I stick with one Mufti. For Islaah I go to another. And :alhamd: they are not scary or intimidating, they earn their respect by being kind, helping and understanding. They'll be strict too, but being strict doesn't mean a person has to be mean about it.

Sorry I can't think of the right word for 'munasibat' at the moment.

[FususAlHikam]

Nothing should make you scared of any human being. If a person is an alim or imam or whatever, so what? Respect is in the heart, otherwise Sahaba were called "Sahaba" as in companions of Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam. Companion is a very unique word if you ponder on its meaning. They were not called his "shahgird" - this is a very dirty word. They were not called tulaba or whatever words people are using now a days. Stop fearing people, you wont get anywhere, you wont get any benefit.

[ImamGhazzaali]

:salam:

Yes lots of scholars are unfortunately like that,
:ws:

true

[haarisa]

Assalamualaikum,
Actually, there is no requirement of separation of men and women even in the masjid. It wasn't until Omar (R.A.) was appointed as the Khalifah that was even put into effect. When you are in a "disco"/rave/dance hall, its a different environment akhi. You are promoting promiscuity. However, there is no law that says women are to be separate from the men in masjids. The ayat you are quoting, I am hoping its in response to the Disco comment the brother beyondmatter stated. :)

[skcadri]

Very interesting question. But i must admit that i actually am afraid of asking them questions. for no apparent reason actually

[mh16388]

what is it about them that specifically scares people or turns them away from Imams/Ulama?



ws,

for myself i wldnt use the word 'scared'. i would adopt the second term 'turns away'.
what i find most detestable about the ulema of deoband of pakistan (where i live) is their rigidness to their minhaaj. its fine if you maintain that facade on a scholarly front but i find it irritating that the academies and madrassahs run by these ulemas do not allow for difference in beliefs.
now im not talking about deviant differences like that of shias, barelvis etc but beliefs of those considered by the deoband to be part of ahl sunnat wal jamaat. e.g sect of ibn abdul wahhab. (thisis proven from reliable deobandi resources).
but i feel that if i enroll in a madrassah with the aim of graduating as an alim then i will have to:
- side with the deobandis' stance on many things that deobandi and sect of ibn abdul wahhab differ upon (i am aware of the entire list)
- endorse the book fadhail e amaal
- endorse practices such as fasting on 15th shabaan, going to graveyards on that day (among other practices)
- agree with practices of an alim just because he was akabir of deoband.
etc

they have their proofs and i have mine. yet i feel uncomfortable that any non-deobandi will not be entertained in the madrassahs.

and its not like its all rosie there in saudia. i dont follow the athari aqeedah as i feel it is less safer. yet i pretty much endorse the stance on shirk and bidat propogated by sheikh ibn abdul wahhab. however i feel even there the institutions wont endorse someone like me.

so basically what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that you have to agree to the curriculum of a madrassah (or the curriculum designated to the madrassah by an alim) in order to graduate. people can have different opinions on secondary issues but not on fundamental ones. even the sahaba (r.a) did. and this is the basis of madhabs. so why should these differences not be respected by the ulema and head of madrassahs in pakistan?

i would appreciate if someone can correct me (particularly those connected to madrassahs) regarding anything wrong ive stated.

[Taliban1]

ws,

for myself i wldnt use the word 'scared'. i would adopt the second term 'turns away'.
what i find most detestable about the ulema of deoband of pakistan (where i live) is their rigidness to their minhaaj. its fine if you maintain that facade on a scholarly front but i find it irritating that the academies and madrassahs run by these ulemas do not allow for difference in beliefs.
now im not talking about deviant differences like that of shias, barelvis etc but beliefs of those considered by the deoband to be part of ahl sunnat wal jamaat. e.g sect of ibn abdul wahhab. (thisis proven from reliable deobandi resources).

:salam:

I've spent around 8-9 years in Pakistani Madressahs. I don't think ou can call that rigidness, you can call is steadfastness :) There's a difference in being rigid and being steadfast on your own manhaj. Being rigid is bad, being steadfast is good.


but i feel that if i enroll in a madrassah with the aim of graduating as an alim then i will have to:
- side with the deobandis' stance on many things that deobandi and sect of ibn abdul wahhab differ upon (i am aware of the entire list)

Actually they wouldn't force you to side with them but it's very natural that after studying things in depth you will side with the deobandi stance on many things.


- endorse the book fadhail e amaal

Not necessary. I haven't read fazaail e Amaal ever in my life! Except for 1-2 pages.


- endorse practices such as fasting on 15th shabaan, going to graveyards on that day (among other practices)

Only if they are proven from ahadith specifically. If you can prove its not, then you will not be forced.


- agree with practices of an alim just because he was akabir of deoband.
etc

Not entirely true. We were never forced to agree with any of the practices OR saying of our akabir. For example, we have disagreed with Hazrat Hakeem ul Ummah's stance about ta'addud in many places online/offline.


they have their proofs and i have mine. yet i feel uncomfortable that any non-deobandi will not be entertained in the madrassahs.

If you are going to study, then I don't think it would be very appropriate to bring up discussions about proofs. No madressah in the world, whether Salafi, Hanbali, Shafii, Hanafi, Maliki, would ever allow you to just keep on arguing about their madhab with proof. This is basic common knowledge. You go there to study not to debate.


and its not like its all rosie there in saudia. i dont follow the athari aqeedah as i feel it is less safer. yet i pretty much endorse the stance on shirk and bidat propogated by sheikh ibn abdul wahhab. however i feel even there the institutions wont endorse someone like me.

In theory the stance on shirk and bidat does look good but practically it's not that great when you start branding everyone a mushrik. Insha'Allah when you study in deep you will understand that it's not like how they say it is.


so basically what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that you have to agree to the curriculum of a madrassah (or the curriculum designated to the madrassah by an alim) in order to graduate. people can have different opinions on secondary issues but not on fundamental ones. even the sahaba (r.a) did. and this is the basis of madhabs. so why should these differences not be respected by the ulema and head of madrassahs in pakistan?

What is the point in studying 8 years if you don't even agree to what you are studying? Can you even study if you think what you are studying is totally wrong?

Can you give some examples about the differences that you think you would be forced to accept and you don't want to accept?

Specific examples.


i would appreciate if someone can correct me (particularly those connected to madrassahs) regarding anything wrong ive stated.

I will wait for your answer.

[mmb786]

Salaam

Depends on who. If i know them to be extremely pious then i'm scared due to my sins. I feel as though they can see right through me and look into my heart, just with a glance. So that shames me....

Was salaam

yeah, right. me tooo! i feel like that (ROTTON) in front of any pious person... even females.

[mmb786]

:salam:

Yes lots of scholars are unfortunately like that, I can only remember one or two friendly scholars from when I was young. When I moved to South Africa however, I realized that the few Ulama I knew did not make up the world. Sure there are grumps everywhere... but I have come to know of some who are very approachable, will answer questions, will alleviate fears and stress. You have to search until you find the aalim you have munasibat with and then stick to them. So for Fiqh, I stick with one Mufti. For Islaah I go to another. And :alhamd: they are not scary or intimidating, they earn their respect by being kind, helping and understanding. They'll be strict too, but being strict doesn't mean a person has to be mean about it.

Sorry I can't think of the right word for 'munasibat' at the moment.

i think munasabat means like "connection" right?

[mh16388]

I've spent around 8-9 years in Pakistani Madressahs. I don't think ou can call that rigidness, you can call is steadfastness :) There's a difference in being rigid and being steadfast on your own manhaj. Being rigid is bad, being steadfast is good.


aoa,

thank you for replying. tell me does steadfastness means one is open to debate and change of opinion?



If you are going to study, then I don't think it would be very appropriate to bring up discussions about proofs. No madressah in the world, whether Salafi, Hanbali, Shafii, Hanafi, Maliki, would ever allow you to just keep on arguing about their madhab with proof. This is basic common knowledge. You go there to study not to debate.


no u got me wrong. i meant i didnt want debates on this thread regarding who is right. obv once i join up i wont go and debate arrogantly.




In theory the stance on shirk and bidat does look good but practically it's not that great when you start branding everyone a mushrik. Insha'Allah when you study in deep you will understand that it's not like how they say it is.


(this is out of context)
hmmm i have actually studied the saudi sects theories and the opinion of deoband ulema regarding it. the crux is that the original founders (or akabirs of the saudi sect) did not brand anyone as mushrik. it is the later jahil extremist aqeedah laymen that gave the sect a bad name. read sheikh ibn abdul wahhab's sons' response to what he says regarding those ulema who differ from him. what he says is they dont pronounce takfir on a mujtahid and sincere alim but rather on a staunch and stubborn alim. the example he gave regarding mistake in ijtihad was of Hazrat mauvia and hazrat ali (r.a). one party was wrong. none were condemned. this is just an example i dont wish to alleviate this discussion:)




What is the point in studying 8 years if you don't even agree to what you are studying? Can you even study if you think what you are studying is totally wrong?


exactly. but i dont think the deoband minhaj is totally wrong. i dont mind studying it if they dont force stuff upon me.im not arrogant, but what i quote to your question below is substantiated by ulema from the saudi sect. not deobandi but they are still ulema:)




Can you give some examples about the differences that you think you would be forced to accept and you don't want to accept?

Specific examples.


i plan to do dawah as a certified daa'i. not just a self proclaimed scholar. hence what i accept i will also preach. so obv the party that certifies me will check what i will preach to the masses. isnt that so?

specific examples:
- the Prophets' are alive in their graves. I believe their life is in barzakh and Allah knows best about their life. i once mentioned on another thread three points regarding hazrat musa (AS)'s life after death: he was praying in his grave at the night of meraj, he was on a level fo heaven that very night, he was in masjid e aqsa to pray behind the Propeht (PBUH) the very night. you cannot combine the three authentic narrations by saying: the Prophets are alive in their graves. people also go and say they are nt in barzakh. i say its a tall claim based on Qiyas. the truth is with Allah (SWT) and lets leave it at that. i dont see how what i said can be contradicted.
- travelling to madinah with the intention of ziyarat. u know the stance of hafiz ibn taymiyyah on this one yes?
- doing things such as tawassul using the Prophet (PBUH) and the auliya's name and virtue etc with the 'correct aqeedah'. yet the deoband put a footnote:' not for the masses as they are weak in aqeedah and this could lead to shirk'. there is a brilliant theory about it in manzoor naumani saheb's book about the sheikh. i gather my info from there. i think anything that might lead to shirk should be banned. this is a very very detailed topic. the point is : the 'correct aqeedah' argument doesnt sit with me. nor will i ever preach it to someone else.
- thinking the grave of the Prophet (PBUH) is holier than the Ka'bah.
- absolute taqleed even when your school's opinion is weak on a point. im saying this with the perspective of a mujtahid, not a layman.
- i believe tombs should be razed to the ground and graves should not be made solid.

(however i dont like takfir and i stay clear of the athari creed)
that is all i can think of right now. manzoor naumani saheb and imam gangohi consider these differences trivial. so do i.

[Taliban1]

aoa,

thank you for replying. tell me does steadfastness means one is open to debate and change of opinion?


:ws:

Yes we all always open to discussions but it does not mean that we will be seen as arrogant if we don't accept what the other person is saying. If that was the case then surely 1 Imam is right and the other 3 are deviants.



the example he gave regarding mistake in ijtihad was of Hazrat mauvia and hazrat ali (r.a). one party was wrong. none were condemned. this is just an example i dont wish to alleviate this discussion:)

Not necessarily. Both can be right.


exactly. but i dont think the deoband minhaj is totally wrong. i dont mind studying it if they dont force stuff upon me.im not arrogant, but what i quote to your question below is substantiated by ulema from the saudi sect. not deobandi but they are still ulema:)

What do you mean by forcing? LIke locking you up until you say I accept?


i plan to do dawah as a certified daa'i. not just a self proclaimed scholar. hence what i accept i will also preach. so obv the party that certifies me will check what i will preach to the masses. isnt that so?

No


specific examples:
- the Prophets' life is in barzakh. Allah knows best about their life. i once mentioned on another thread three points regarding hazrat musa (AS)'s life after death: he was praying in his grave at the night of meraj, he was on a level fo heaven that very night, he was in masjid e aqsa to pray behind the Propeht (PBUH) the very night. you cannot combine the three authentic narrations by saying: the Prophets are alive in their graves. people also go and say they are nt in barzakh. i say its a tall claim based on Qiyas. the truth is with Allah (SWT) and lets leave it at that. i dont see how what i said can be contradicted.

Both parties exist in Deobandi Madaris in pakistan. I have had great Mufti Ustads who have the same view about the Prophet's life in Grave as salafis do.


- travelling to saudia with the intention of ziyarat. u know the stance of hafiz ibn taymiyyah on this one yes?

I don't know his stance, but the official stance here is that It is HARAM to do so.


- doing things such as tawassul using the Prophet (PBUH) and the auliya's name and virtue etc with the 'correct aqeedah'. yet the deoband put a footnote:' not for the masses as they are weak in aqeedah and this could lead to shirk'. there is a brilliant theory about it in manzoor naumani saheb's book about the sheikh. i gather my info from there. i think anything that might lead to shirk should be banned. this is a very very detailed topic. the point is : the 'correct aqeedah' argument doesnt sit with me. nor will i ever preach it to someone else.

You don't have to preach Tawassul to anyone. Have you ever seen me preaching about tawassul that people should do it?


- thinking the grave of the Prophet (PBUH) is holier than the Ka'bah.

Again you can have your own view from proper Daleels.


- absolute taqleed even when your school's opinion is weak on a point. im saying this with the perspective of a mujtahid, not a layman.

If you truly see that the opinion of our school is weak with dalaail then no one will stop you from doing the opposite. But this conclusion should be derived from conclusive dalaail not just like salafis do. Everything hanafi is weak. I'm just surprised that they never find anything Hanafi to be strong!


that is all i can think of right now. manzoor naumani saheb and imam gangohi consider these differences trivial. so do i.

And no one will force you otherwise.

My own view is that there are enough basic masaail in the ummah to be preached than worrying about tawassul and our view being weak.

For example, Namaz, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj.. We have to bring people to deen first then we will worry about these things later!

:jazak:

[mh16388]

Yes we all always open to discussions but it does not mean that we will be seen as arrogant if we don't accept what the other person is saying. If that was the case then surely 1 Imam is right and the other 3 are deviants.
unfortunately thats not how everyone is. not every madrassah is open minded. ive seen how they deal with those who differ from them.ive read the fatwas. its not pleasant.



What do you mean by forcing? LIke locking you up until you say I accept?
no no:). 'forcing' as in threatening to kick someone out if they dont follow their minhaj absolutely. classical case of secondary differences brought on the level of primary ones



Both parties exist in Deobandi Madaris in pakistan. I have had great Mufti Ustads who have the same view about the Prophet's life in Grave as salafis do.

didnt binnoria town issue a fatwa that who so ever says the Prophet is not alive is declared mamati and you cant pray behind him?thats whats irks me. what you say however is something im hearing for the first time honestly. good sign


You don't have to preach Tawassul to anyone. Have you ever seen me preaching about tawassul that people should do it?
i didnt know you were a mufti. and i know i dont have to. but a complete alim has command over all aspects of deen. you cant shy away from stuff. at a point in life you will have to choose between a stance. this could create fitna

If you truly see that the opinion of our school is weak with dalaail then no one will stop you from doing the opposite. But this conclusion should be derived from conclusive dalaail not just like salafis do. Everything hanafi is weak. I'm just surprised that they never find anything Hanafi to be strong!

you are correct. if you read my previous post i said mujtahids should do the classification. not laymen. mujtahids are qualified

My own view is that there are enough basic masaail in the ummah to be preached than worrying about tawassul and our view being weak.

For example, Namaz, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj.. We have to bring people to deen first then we will worry about these things later!
you missed out ta'addud zawjaat:p



well thanks for the clarifications. if you or anyone else has anything different to add they may do so. im quite keen on eradicating prejudices against madrassahs using my own observations and observations of those with more knowledge.

[Muhammad.ali61]

ASSALAM O ALAIKUM,
ulamas' ilm make them very jallali and respectable thats why........... in my opinion!!!!!!

[Taliban1]

well thanks for the clarifications. if you or anyone else has anything different to add they may do so. im quite keen on eradicating prejudices against madrassahs using my own observations and observations of those with more knowledge.

Yes please do.


unfortunately thats not how everyone is. not every madrassah is open minded. ive seen how they deal with those who differ from them.ive read the fatwas. its not pleasant.

Everyone has his own choice of words. You see the basic teachings not the people! LIke how they say, See what Islam is, don't look at muslims!


no no. 'forcing' as in threatening to kick someone out if they dont follow their minhaj absolutely. classical case of secondary differences brought on the level of primary ones

Well no they won't kick you out unless you start to get on their nerves by arguing daily in every clas\s! As I told you I've had Mamati teachers. They led us in Namaz too, nobody kicks you out. But as I said, if you start arguing all day and all night and say that the whole madaris people are bidatis and deviants then no Madressah in the whole world would accommodate you.


i didnt know you were a mufti. and i know i dont have to. but a complete alim has command over all aspects of deen. you cant shy away from stuff. at a point in life you will have to choose between a stance. this could create fitna


No hazrat, a point won't come in your life believe me :)

Secondly, you can't answer each and every question in the world. Remember about Imam Malik (RA) [I think it was him or IMam Ahmad (RA) don't remember correctly]. Someone asked him 50 questions out of which he only answer 2 and said لا ادري to the rest!

And I read about another Imam who didn't answer most of the questions asked. The questioner said, What do you take salary for if you can't even answer all this? He said, I take salary for what I know, If I start taking salary for what I don't know, then even the wealth of the whole world wouldn't be enough!

I'm not a mufti nor Alim. I've just spent 8-9 years in a Madressah. Doesn't make me a proper Alim.


you missed out ta'addud zawjaat

:cheesygri

[Taliban1]

And brother Mh, I would like to add that once you start to study the Usool of Fiqh and then read Hidayah (Fiqh book) you will yourself see how strong our madhab is. I'm sure that you will change alot of your opnions once you read Deen in a little more detail. Insha'Allah.

:jazak:

[mh16388]

And brother Mh, I would like to add that once you start to study the Usool of Fiqh and then read Hidayah (Fiqh book) you will yourself see how strong our madhab is. I'm sure that you will change alot of your opnions once you read Deen in a little more detail. Insha'Allah.

:jazak:

yes, i should do that

[A Qureshi]

Walaikum assalaam,

Generally speaking, it's not only with Imams, Ulamas but with 'religious' people in general, because they start picking on others, belittling them and bombarding them with fatwas. This is something which keeps youngsters away from masajids or/and religious gatherings. It is something really sad. It is a catastrophe.

[aliyaa]

i wish there was an option "not at all"

[Sohail123]

assalam o alikum
i never get scared from such ulema and alim,