Criticism of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf [may Allah preserve him]

[faqir]

Criticisms of Shaykh Hamza

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question:

I have heard Ahle Sunnah Jamaah Muslims accusing Sheikh Hamza Yusuf as
being a Deviant. what is your view on this matter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his
folk, companions, and followers

The ulema I know have the highest of love, respect, and admiration for
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

There are few scholars, if any, in the West who have conveyed the
guidance of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)
as
far or as effectively. Thousands have been guided through his lectures
and lessons. Many of those who have gone abroad to study, including
this
writer, did so because of the guidance and inspiration of this great
man.

Shaykh Hamza also made the way of traditional Sunni Islam--with its
richness, depth, tolerance, and meaningfulness--manifest in Islamic
discourse in the West. Before he and a few other leading Western
scholars appeared on the scene in the early 1990s, the influence
traditional Sunni Islam was far less visible, especially in the major
Islamic organizations, and on university campuses and in youth groups.
This has changed dramatically.

Shaykh Hamza not only taught the way of traditional Islam--as
represented by Sunni scholarship in beliefs, practice, and
spirituality--but also explained its importance, need, wisdom,
richness,
relevance, and benefit, both in his words and exemplified it in his
person.

Does this mean that one has to agree with the noble shaykh (may Allah
preserve him and continue to shower him with His favors) in everything?
No. It is rare for two humans to agree on everything. However, the way
of traditional scholars is that they are respectful when they disagree
even with those who are opposed to them, for such scholars are the
inheritors of the Best of Creation (peace and blessings be upon him),
whom Allah Himself describes as being of tremendous character &
conduct.

As for disagreements of understanding among Sunni scholars, this is a
manifestation of Divine Mercy. We don't say that everyone is right.
However, we also respect the right of those of learning to exercise
their judgement. When scholars err, other scholars correct them, and
the
resultant discourse enriches the community--whether by making the truth
manifest, or by showing the various possible paths to the truth.

If you ask the scholars in the Arab lands--in Yemen, Syria, Jordan,
Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, the Hejaz, and elsewhere--who know Shaykh
Hamza, you'll find that they have only the highest of regards and
praise
for him.

May Allah show us the way of the Messenger of Mercy (peace and
blessings
be upon him). May He make us of those who are firm on the truth, and
gentle & loving among ourselves, and united in agreement and in
disagreement. And He alone gives success.


Faraz Rabbani

www.SunniPath.com

Wassalam.

[ahsanirfan]

Criticisms of Shaykh Hamza

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question:

I have heard Ahle Sunnah Jamaah Muslims accusing Sheikh Hamza Yusuf as
being a Deviant. what is your view on this matter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his
folk, companions, and followers

The ulema I know have the highest of love, respect, and admiration for
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

There are few scholars, if any, in the West who have conveyed the
guidance of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)
as
far or as effectively. Thousands have been guided through his lectures
and lessons. Many of those who have gone abroad to study, including
this
writer, did so because of the guidance and inspiration of this great
man.

Shaykh Hamza also made the way of traditional Sunni Islam--with its
richness, depth, tolerance, and meaningfulness--manifest in Islamic
discourse in the West. Before he and a few other leading Western
scholars appeared on the scene in the early 1990s, the influence
traditional Sunni Islam was far less visible, especially in the major
Islamic organizations, and on university campuses and in youth groups.
This has changed dramatically.

Shaykh Hamza not only taught the way of traditional Islam--as
represented by Sunni scholarship in beliefs, practice, and
spirituality--but also explained its importance, need, wisdom,
richness,
relevance, and benefit, both in his words and exemplified it in his
person.

Does this mean that one has to agree with the noble shaykh (may Allah
preserve him and continue to shower him with His favors) in everything?
No. It is rare for two humans to agree on everything. However, the way
of traditional scholars is that they are respectful when they disagree
even with those who are opposed to them, for such scholars are the
inheritors of the Best of Creation (peace and blessings be upon him),
whom Allah Himself describes as being of tremendous character &
conduct.

As for disagreements of understanding among Sunni scholars, this is a
manifestation of Divine Mercy. We don't say that everyone is right.
However, we also respect the right of those of learning to exercise
their judgement. When scholars err, other scholars correct them, and
the
resultant discourse enriches the community--whether by making the truth
manifest, or by showing the various possible paths to the truth.

If you ask the scholars in the Arab lands--in Yemen, Syria, Jordan,
Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, the Hejaz, and elsewhere--who know Shaykh
Hamza, you'll find that they have only the highest of regards and
praise
for him.

May Allah show us the way of the Messenger of Mercy (peace and
blessings
be upon him). May He make us of those who are firm on the truth, and
gentle & loving among ourselves, and united in agreement and in
disagreement. And He alone gives success.


Faraz Rabbani

www.SunniPath.com

Wassalam.


best answer i heard so far in his defence....

[abu bakr]

salafis, deobandis and barelvis must all unite. if you take an indepth study into their beliefs with an open mind you would find the differences are not so great as the issues were differed upon amongst the great ulema of the past

[abdul518ca]

Who criticizes him anyway? I know that the "Dr." Tariq dude at Dar-al-Arqam website(who said RIS is a bid'a) has a real problem with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Shaykh Nuh Keller, he has whole sections on his site about their 'deviation'.

"Dr. Tariq, he's our hero"
"He'll take Bid'a down to zero" :cheesygri

[Abdullah]

jazk'Allah Khair..i needed this..

[maaz]

yea, ppl that bash hamza yusuf honestly don't understand him. its the chain to rewards. if he motivated ppl like shaykh faraz to go abroad and learn. look at the benefit that shaykh faraz has provided us? and the little knowledge that we posses to pass on to others. he's was the source of it, and will continue to get rewards long after he's left this world. he follows a schools, understands tradationalism and i love the guy.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

forget al-muhajiroun, hizb ut-tahrir and ikhwan. if you want to know who is largely responsible for the revival of islam, particularly 'traditional islam' in the west, then this thread contains the answer.

incidentally, it is specifically the former two groups and their remnants which criticise him, some of them steeping the level (really low) of calling him murtrad (audhubillah).

and when you have giants of fiqh and tasawwuf equally respecting Shaykh Hamza, such as Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi, we have no right not to respect him.

yes, we have all seen a change in his style over the last 5 years, but so what? he makes islam look attractive - and this is what we need. it is correct that we not agree with him, but nothing he has said or done tantamounts to kufr. even he has said that many times he may express himself incorrectly, people misunderstand what he says and take him out of context.

let us all be grateful for the impact Shaykh Hamza has had upon our lives - he certainly has on mine. May Allah reward him for his efforts.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

"I have heard Ahle Sunnah Jamaah Muslims accusing Sheikh Hamza Yusuf as being a Deviant. what is your view on this matter?"

which prominent scholars of ahl al-sunna have called him deviant?

(i mean scholars, not groups or organisations which have no authority in my book)

[Hypermodestmuslima]

From what I've heard of him, mostly the Salafis criticise Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. For instance, inside one particular conference, one of the speakers who wasn't present videoed in a bit criticising Hamza Yusuf. Of course, later I found out that this particular speaker was a Salafi. After what Shaykh Faraz Rabbani said, its kind of clear who criticised who and who deserves the criticism.

Of course, it is also important to note that many scholars have criticised a certain speaker/scholar for not having a proper link in their Shaykh's line. For instance, a certain speaker/scholar only goes up to his Shaykh, after that his Shaykh's shaykh doesn't have a shaykh. Some others have condemned certain speakers to actually being trained by the enemies of Islam to uproot Islam from its core. (Personally I find the second view highly degrading but it is true as there have been eminent speakers of today as Shaykh Aboo Yusuf Riyadh Al Haqq who have referred to this in an indirect way)

There is an increasing group of Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah scholars who indirectly have an opinion on the 'Zaytuna' institiute. It would be interesting to see the contrasting opinion on this scholar in light of Shaykh Faraz Rabbani's opinion and the opinion of others.

Then again, in light of the RIS conference, there were a couple of speakers who criticised Taqleed and another speaker who related a Hadith and an important incident in Islamic history from only one point. That same speaker made another weird mistake. In light of this, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Sulaiman Moola approached them and explained that their views were slightly obscured and basically they shouldn't say that.

The topic of Hamza Yusuf has a lot of nail biting going along inside the muslim community. Although many don't openly say anything because of lack of knowledge on the issue. Personally, I lack much knowledge, and only am conveying the different view points held about him.

And Allah truly knows best.

May Allah (SWT) forgive me if I have wronged anyone inside this post or have conveyed an unintentional evil.

[Omar HH]

I love Shaykh Hamza Yusuf he's my hero.

[maaz]

i have no respect for anyone that accuses another muslim of being kafir. that's just so wrong its retarded. i'm sunni and hanafi, and i don't have it in me to call anyone that says the kalima a disbeliever. have ppl looked inside his heart? i don't have a problem with salafi's, alhumdulilla, but i have a serious problem with anyone that hurls the most disgusting of insults. may they be questioned by Allah for what they have said. for they themselves do not know how near or far they will be from Allah on the Day.

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Hmm...no one called him a Kafir...save the Salafi sites...they kind of labeleed him a BIG deviant...anywayz...some ppl have criticised what he said greatly...

[Omar HH]

May Allah (SWT) preserve him x10,001 (Allah is witr, and he loves witr! ;) )

[Abul Hasan]

"I have heard Ahle Sunnah Jamaah Muslims accusing Sheikh Hamza Yusuf as being a Deviant. what is your view on this matter?"

which prominent scholars of ahl al-sunna have called him deviant?

(i mean scholars, not groups or organisations which have no authority in my book)

:salam:

I don't know if everyone accepts the Maliki brother from Nigeria by the name of Muhammad Sharif to be a scholar, but i am sure i read something from him in critique to Hamza Yusuf's views after Sept. 11. The one's who make takfir on him are the followers of Omar Bakri Muhammad and some so called Jihadi-Salafi's at ******************.

One thing they claim is that Shaykh Hamza denied the literal reality of the maidens in Janna? They claim that he said it is only metaphorical in a radio interview they transcribed on a website post 9-11? What do you know of this?

If this be true - then this is clearly not from Sunni aqeeda.

They also criticise his appearance (goatee beard, western apparell) and his appearance with Bush in the Whitehouse...


Has Shaykh Hamza clarified any of these allegations in talks or writings post 9-11?

May Allah keep us all on the Sunni path. Amin

Wassalam

[Abdullah_Faysal]

Why do they criticism him?

[faqir]

:salam:

I don't know if everyone accepts the Maliki brother from Nigeria by the name of Muhammad Sharif to be a scholar, but i am sure i read something from him in critique to Hamza Yusuf's views after Sept. 11. The one's who make takfir on him are the followers of Omar Bakri Muhammad and some so called Jihadi-Salafi's at ******************.

One thing they claim is that Shaykh Hamza denied the literal reality of the maidens in Janna? They claim that he said it is only metaphorical in a radio interview they transcribed on a website post 9-11? What do you know of this?

If this be true - then this is clearly not from Sunni aqeeda.

They also criticise his appearance (goatee beard, western apparell) and his appearance with Bush in the Whitehouse...


Has Shaykh Hamza clarified any of these allegations in talks or writings post 9-11?

May Allah keep us all on the Sunni path. Amin

Wassalam

Asalamu alaykum,

Shaykh Hamza has certainly clarified all these issues time and time again in his talks after that initial period of the WTC attack.

I will, at a later date inshaAllah, post some of the responses from him that I have collected and posted in other forums or maybe Shaykhs pir sahib can do so.

Wasalam.

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

For a start please listen to:

http://209.41.170.97:8080/ramgen/%7Ezmedia/audio/Shaykh%20Hamza%20Yusuf%20-%20Traditional%20Education%20in%20an%20Age%20of%20 Terror.rm

[move forward to 17 minutes to listen to his explanation of his visit to Dubya Bush]

Wasalam.

[faqir]

From his talk "America's Tragedy"


Q: In an interview, you mentioned that the Qur'an never used the word jihad to imply fighting and the Qur'an never mentioned hur al-'ain.



Shaykh Hamza: I did not say the Qur'an never mentions hur al-'ain. I said that the 72 virgins is not in the Qur'an. It is in the hadith. About jihad, there is no verse where jihad is specifically used to refer to war, and you can look through the entire Qur'an. When Allah speaks about war, He uses the word qital. Jihad is a general, comprehensive term that INCLUDES A MILITARY ENDEAVOR THAT IS FOR THE TRUTH, but it has the broadest meanings in the Qur'an. It includes all that Muslims struggle to do. For example, building schools is a jihad; fighting the nafs is a jihad; and so forth. That is why the Qur'an does not limit the word. Juhud just means struggle, and that was what I meant in the interview. There are verses where it does refer to martial combat, but it does not specifically limit the term to that one use, and that is why we do not have a "holy war," so to speak. The struggle for the sake of Allah is a high thing.

What I said about hur al-'ain is that the 72 virgins is not mentioned in the Qur'an. I did say that you have to be very careful about literalism with the Qur'an. For example, the Qur'an says about Allah, "there is nothing like Allah," and then what does Allah say after that? He says, "and He is the All-Hearing and the All-Knowing." Well, how would you know what All-Hearing and All-Knowing is if you did not have hearing and knowing? Also, Allah sees, so how would you know what sight is if you did not have sight? Allah gave you sight, but is your sight like the sight of Allah? Absolutely not.

Now, Allah says about jannah that it is something no eye has seen, and it never occurred to the human heart. So, when you look at the other descriptions of paradise in the Qur'an, you have to know that those are approximations. Do not think that Allah is describing physical types of things that we know of in this world. That is what Imam Al-Ghazali said, and that is what the 'ulama say. One of the things that some people are trying to use against Islam is that they say we envision paradise as being this type of sexual romp or something like that, which is a terrible thing. For the human being, the highest level of pleasure is in sexual relations, and therefore, it would be appropriate, according to what Imam Al-Ghazali says, to give some indication of the pleasures of paradise by talking about something that human beings know about, which is that experience, because the majority of human beings do not have intense mystical experiences in their life. There are mystics who do have these experiences that are very profound and intense, but most people do not. The most intense experience that they will have of pleasure is in this act, and when Allah describes the pleasures of paradise, He uses those examples because they are close to people's understandings.

That is not to say that hur al-'ain do not exist because they are real. However, to think that they are somehow related to the bestial elements of this world is incorrect. Allah says that these are pure beings. Paradise is total purity, so, it is about purity; its not about anything that relates to the mud of this world; that is euros. It is in the world. So, I said that because I think that sometimes people misunderstand the way Muslims view paradise. For example, what is in it for the women? What do the women get? Well, jealousy is removed from their hearts, they say. Allah says that both of them get their rewards. Believing men and believing women get the same rewards in paradise. Another thing to remember is that the highest station in paradise is the presence of Allah; it has nothing to do with any sensual description. The lowest jannah is the jannah of food and drink, and those are just approximations. Do not think that paradise is going to be just eating and drinking like here. It is not.

[faqir]

From his talk "America's Tragedy"

Q: Would the firefighters in New York be considered shahid by Islamic shari'a?

Shaykh Hamza: I think that is for Allah to judge. I believe people are taken to account based on what they know. According to Imam Al-Ghazali, and Shaykh Murabit al-Hajj told me this as well, if people have not heard the message of Islam, they are not taken to account for Islam. I think that people who do good deeds, according to our beliefs, are rewarded for the good that they do. Even Abu-Lahab is given water in the hellfire for freeing a slave the day that the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was born, and that is in a sound hadith. If Abu Lahab, the worst enemy of the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam is rewarded for the good he did in this world, our Lord is a Just Lord, and He rewards good. So, what I did say is that if there were martyrs in this situation, then certainly they would be those people, but I cannot say who is a martyr and who is not. Even if a Muslim dies fi sabilillah, you hope that he is a martyr, but you cannot say with any certainty because it is for Allah to decide if it was sincerely for the sake of Allah, but they were heroic people; they were good people.

[Omar HH]

They also criticise his appearance (goatee beard, western apparell) and his appearance with Bush in the Whitehouse...


Has Shaykh Hamza clarified any of these allegations in talks or writings post 9-11?

May Allah keep us all on the Sunni path. Amin

Wassalam

From what i've been told from numerous sources, Shaykh Hamza cannot grow a full beard! Second of all, what are you talking about "Western Dress" he wears all kinds of Muslim clothing all the time. Appearing with Bush at the Whitehouse? That was a good thing. He was showing how we were true good peaceful people.

[Omar HH]

From his talk "America's Tragedy"

Q: Would the firefighters in New York be considered shahid by Islamic shari'a?

Shaykh Hamza: I think that is for Allah to judge. I believe people are taken to account based on what they know. According to Imam Al-Ghazali, and Shaykh Murabit al-Hajj told me this as well, if people have not heard the message of Islam, they are not taken to account for Islam. I think that people who do good deeds, according to our beliefs, are rewarded for the good that they do. Even Abu-Lahab is given water in the hellfire for freeing a slave the day that the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was born, and that is in a sound hadith. If Abu Lahab, the worst enemy of the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam is rewarded for the good he did in this world, our Lord is a Just Lord, and He rewards good. So, what I did say is that if there were martyrs in this situation, then certainly they would be those people, but I cannot say who is a martyr and who is not. Even if a Muslim dies fi sabilillah, you hope that he is a martyr, but you cannot say with any certainty because it is for Allah to decide if it was sincerely for the sake of Allah, but they were heroic people; they were good people.

Wow... never heard a better response.

[Omar HH]

From his talk "America's Tragedy"


Q: In an interview, you mentioned that the Qur'an never used the word jihad to imply fighting and the Qur'an never mentioned hur al-'ain.



Shaykh Hamza: I did not say the Qur'an never mentions hur al-'ain. I said that the 72 virgins is not in the Qur'an. It is in the hadith. About jihad, there is no verse where jihad is specifically used to refer to war, and you can look through the entire Qur'an. When Allah speaks about war, He uses the word qital. Jihad is a general, comprehensive term that INCLUDES A MILITARY ENDEAVOR THAT IS FOR THE TRUTH, but it has the broadest meanings in the Qur'an. It includes all that Muslims struggle to do. For example, building schools is a jihad; fighting the nafs is a jihad; and so forth. That is why the Qur'an does not limit the word. Juhud just means struggle, and that was what I meant in the interview. There are verses where it does refer to martial combat, but it does not specifically limit the term to that one use, and that is why we do not have a "holy war," so to speak. The struggle for the sake of Allah is a high thing.

What I said about hur al-'ain is that the 72 virgins is not mentioned in the Qur'an. I did say that you have to be very careful about literalism with the Qur'an. For example, the Qur'an says about Allah, "there is nothing like Allah," and then what does Allah say after that? He says, "and He is the All-Hearing and the All-Knowing." Well, how would you know what All-Hearing and All-Knowing is if you did not have hearing and knowing? Also, Allah sees, so how would you know what sight is if you did not have sight? Allah gave you sight, but is your sight like the sight of Allah? Absolutely not.

Now, Allah says about jannah that it is something no eye has seen, and it never occurred to the human heart. So, when you look at the other descriptions of paradise in the Qur'an, you have to know that those are approximations. Do not think that Allah is describing physical types of things that we know of in this world. That is what Imam Al-Ghazali said, and that is what the 'ulama say. One of the things that some people are trying to use against Islam is that they say we envision paradise as being this type of sexual romp or something like that, which is a terrible thing. For the human being, the highest level of pleasure is in sexual relations, and therefore, it would be appropriate, according to what Imam Al-Ghazali says, to give some indication of the pleasures of paradise by talking about something that human beings know about, which is that experience, because the majority of human beings do not have intense mystical experiences in their life. There are mystics who do have these experiences that are very profound and intense, but most people do not. The most intense experience that they will have of pleasure is in this act, and when Allah describes the pleasures of paradise, He uses those examples because they are close to people's understandings.

That is not to say that hur al-'ain do not exist because they are real. However, to think that they are somehow related to the bestial elements of this world is incorrect. Allah says that these are pure beings. Paradise is total purity, so, it is about purity; its not about anything that relates to the mud of this world; that is euros. It is in the world. So, I said that because I think that sometimes people misunderstand the way Muslims view paradise. For example, what is in it for the women? What do the women get? Well, jealousy is removed from their hearts, they say. Allah says that both of them get their rewards. Believing men and believing women get the same rewards in paradise. Another thing to remember is that the highest station in paradise is the presence of Allah; it has nothing to do with any sensual description. The lowest jannah is the jannah of food and drink, and those are just approximations. Do not think that paradise is going to be just eating and drinking like here. It is not.


My GOD!!! ALLAHU AKBAR!!! SUBHANALLAH!!! I never thought abotu it like that at ALL! What a wonderful explanation again. Learn something new everyday!

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

brother faqir has cleared all those silly issues which people accuse him of, such as denying military jihad and denying the hur al-ayn and calling the firefighters shuhadah , when he did not directly say that.

he aint no deviant - i do not think Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi would constantly associate with a 'deviant', do you?

the only other thing he gets stick over is the visit to Bush - which i did not agree with initially, but have come to terms with it, although i do believe the situation could have been handled differently. in any case, his stance on George Bush, and the war on Afghanistan and Iraq was made quite clear after that; and so we should forget the past and not accuse him of siding with Bush when he clearly does not and has said so many times since 9/11.

regarding the clothing and beard issues, to me they are irrelevant issues which and are not worth arguing about.

[salman]

as salamu alaykum

brother faqir has cleared all those silly issues which people accuse him of, such as denying military jihad and denying the hur al-ayn and calling the firefighters shuhadah , when he did not directly say that.

he aint no deviant - i do not think Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi would constantly associate with a 'deviant', do you?

the only other thing he gets stick over is the visit to Bush - which i did not agree with initially, but have come to terms with it, although i do believe the situation could have been handled differently. in any case, his stance on George Bush, and the war on Afghanistan and Iraq was made quite clear after that; and so we should forget the past and not accuse him of siding with Bush when he clearly does not and has said so many times since 9/11.

regarding the clothing and beard issues, to me they are irrelevant issues which and are not worth arguing about.

It should be noted that Shaikh Hamza initially refused to meet with Bush. It was only after one of his teachers told him he should accept the invitation did he go.

wasalam

[ameera]

Assalamualeikum

Cam across this thread while randomly browsing....funny thing is that just last week maybe, the Hamza is discussed in a Huge thread in another forum ....and I got this from there

Anyways, what do you think ?

Hamza - Dhikr (http://s6.yousendit.com/download.aspx)

wa aleikum salam

P.S. mods....where's the forum rules posted???
I am not sure if posting links after 100 posts is a compulsory rule to follow.
Anyways, I thought that this link has much benefit to it so..... (the link will remain active for a few more days only though if I am not wrong...somehting to do with the link itself...)

[salman]

Assalamualeikum

Cam across this thread while randomly browsing....funny thing is that just last week maybe, the Hamza is discussed in a Huge thread in another forum ....and I got this from there

Anyways, what do you think ?

Hamza - Dhikr (http://s6.yousendit.com/download.aspx)

wa aleikum salam

P.S. mods....where's the forum rules posted???
I am not sure if posting links after 100 posts is a compulsory rule to follow.
Anyways, I thought that this link has much benefit to it so..... (the link will remain active for a few more days only though if I am not wrong...somehting to do with the link itself...)

Salamu Alaikum

Sister you can find the forum rules here:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13

Your link is fine. The rule has not been finalized yet to my knowledge and applies only to "advertising sites".

Wasalam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

It should be noted that Shaikh Hamza initially refused to meet with Bush. It was only after one of his teachers told him he should accept the invitation did he go.

wasalam

as salamu alaykum

yes, it was Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah who i believe told him to go. i don't think the actual visit itself would have been a problem. it was more the fact that he was seen to clap and applause George Bush.... also many Muslims mock the fact that he was able to influence the changing of the name of the operation on Afghanistan from 'operation infinite justice' to another name because it was blasphemous to Muslims. with such images he was straight away branded a collaborator, a government scholar etc etc....

of course, all that aside - he was probably the first Muslim ever to do dawah directly on George Bush - he gave him an english translation of the qur'an, and warned him quite clearly of the potential polarisation of the west and the muslim world if he attacked afghanistan.

if you listen to his speech given in Oxford last year, and in ISNA in 2003 and 2004 - as well as Bristol 2002, and countless other talks, his loyalty is evidently to Islam and promoting a greater understanding. he never supported Bush's actions and this is clearly stated by him in many speeches.

another good talk is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/03/forums/talking_point/islam09sep.ram

[incidentally the interviewer above was recently shot and injured in Saudi]:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3782655.stm

[Omar HH]

Meeting Bush is a GOOD thing.

When a Muslim leader of Traditional Islam is invited to the White House to talk to the President of the most powerful country in the world, thats a good thing.

And who cares, whats past is passed your only wasting your life talking about it.

[faqir]

It should be noted that Shaikh Hamza initially refused to meet with Bush. It was only after one of his teachers told him he should accept the invitation did he go.

wasalam


Asalamu alaykum,

Please listen to

http://209.41.170.97:8080/ramgen/%7Ezmedia/audio/Shaykh%20Hamza%20Yusuf%20-%20Traditional%20Education%20in%20an%20Age%20of%20 Terror.rm

[move forward to 17 mins]

I am afraid I disagree with Ohossino though, meeting Bush was a pointless exercise and I think one can gather this from listening to what Sh. Hamza had to say afterwards....

As for his goatee beard - this fulfils the sunnah according to many of the Maliki fuqaha so I don't see what right anyone has to criticise.

Wasalam.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

I am afraid I disagree with Ohossino though, meeting Bush was a pointless exercise and I think one can gather this from listening to what Sh. Hamza had to say afterwards....

it was pointless in retrospect. however, at the time he was faced with the situation, i doubt it appeard pointless. from a fiqh perspective, i don't believe he did anything wrong, it just looked bad. if you look closely at him during the visit, he looked extremely uneasy and uncomfortable.

anyways, those who wish to dwell in the past (not you faqir!), can rant all day about Shaykh Hamza. we, however, choose to move on with Shaykh Hamza.

check out this photo of Shaykh Muhammad and Shaykh Hamza junior:

http://www.zaytuna.org/photomoments3/pages/page_148.html

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

In one of our classes with Shaikh Nuh, we were taught - as per Imam Ghazalis saying - that the righteous are those whom the princes and kings seek and not vice versa. This stands true till this day. We have countless examples from the past Ulema who would assist the government of their time - regardless of their (the rulers) corruption - because they (the ulema) were called upon to help and it was their duty to assist.

This should definitely not be taken against Shaikh Hamza.

[maaz]

mashallah, definitely the most beautiful pictures....

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

Yeah, nice pics! Is that the Zaytuna institute? Looks nice.

[Omar HH]

As for his goatee beard - this fulfils the sunnah according to many of the Maliki fuqaha so I don't see what right anyone has to criticise.

Wasalam.

Yeah I know, one opinion in the Maliki madhab is that the beard has to only be above and below the lips.

It angers me when people get mad about his beard.

[maaz]

i really like hamza yusuf, and do not have a problem with his beard, nor the fiqh of imam malik.

but to shed light on the issue, is that ppl expect that the scholors of our deen should be 100% on the commands of Allah and 100% on the sunnah of the prophet (on him be peace). I believe that their expectation has a valid basis. our scholors who are the heirs of the prophets cannot make any compromise other than the perfect and identical following of the prophet (peace be upon him). It is well known that the prophet (peace be upon him) had a full beard as did his sahaba. so the scholors they must adhere strongly, because once they diverge from the 100% sunnah then for sure the normal folk following them will also diverge, not only diverge, but diverge to a greater length.

from sunnipath:

As mentioned, the position of the Shafi`is and Malikis is that the beard (minimally) is that which grows on the chin, even if only a little. As such, in both schools, it is valid to have a goatee or a trim beard, though non-optimal, and it is not sinful. Whenever there are valid differences of opinion (such as those between the four sunni schools of law), one accepts and respects others' right to follow any of these positions, even if one holds another position.

The Hanafi position is that it is wajib, as established by the sunna, for the beard to be a fistful. [Ibn Abidin, Radd al-Muhtar] The texts that call it a sunna refer to this, as explained in other texts.

Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

So its the "non-optimal" that ppl are chasing. However, i am in no way criticizing him, we all have weaknesses, and i fully well recongize my own. nor am i in any position to criticize any one. but i wish to explain to you why ppl hold the view they hold.

[maaz]

also from sunnipath:

Given this, what is the fuss?

It must also be remembered that the scholars concur that there is no condemnation regarding issues that are differed upon within the bounds of the Sunni schools of law. Commanding the good and forbidding the wrong relate only to those issues that are agreed upon to be obligatory or impermissible. As for issues differed upon, the most one may do is offer sincere advice (nasiha) while respecting others’ right not to follow the opinion one believes to be correct.

This is the path of tolerance, and mercy.

Beard and trouser length are each given only a couple of lines in even the most comprehensive of fiqh texts, yet are made to sound as if they are the pillars of our deen, so much so that people on the fringe are often turned away for such matters…

The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) said, “Make things easy; do not make them hard. Give glad tidings, and do not turn people away.” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Walaikum assalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

[faqir]

Ya Allah!! not the beard again?!

[faqir]

Some people have been criticizing major scholars for having trim beards, almost implying that it is a sign of weak religious commitment.






Walaikum assalam,




There is a need to wake up and smell the coffee, Sidi:

1. Reality indicates that 3 of the 4 madhhabs of Sunni fiqh consider a full beard recommended, not wajib. And the other madhhabs do not have something called makruh tahriman in the sense of being sinful.

2. There is scholarly consensus that all four madhhabs are, in principle, permissible to follow.

3. The sounder opinion according to the scholars of usul and fiqh is that one does not have to stick to one madhhab in everything.

4. There is a general principle that when matters become difficult with regards to an issue, its rulings are made more easy. (Qa`ida: idha daqa al-amru, ittasa`a al-hukmu -- Majalla, Ashbah)

5. There is a widespread problem in terms of people's application of the Hanafi position on the beard. Its application in the West, especially, and many Muslim countries is difficult. So...

Given this, what is the fuss?

It must also be remembered that the scholars concur that there is no condemnation regarding issues that are differed upon within the bounds of the Sunni schools of law. Commanding the good and forbidding the wrong relate only to those issues that are agreed upon to be obligatory or impermissible. As for issues differed upon, the most one may do is offer sincere advice (nasiha) while respecting others’ right not to follow the opinion one believes to be correct.

This is the path of tolerance, and mercy.

Beard and trouser length are each given only a couple of lines in even the most comprehensive of fiqh texts, yet are made to sound as if they are the pillars of our deen, so much so that people on the fringe are often turned away for such matters…

The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) said, “Make things easy; do not make them hard. Give glad tidings, and do not turn people away.” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Walaikum assalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

Beards- Ibn Abidin says...
Trim Beards & True Love?
Regarding the Beard
Touching the Qur'an: Beards

[Omar HH]

Umm, how many times have we repeated that (at least from what i've heard) he CANNOT grow a full beard!

[Mossy]

Still, even if he could, ain't nothing wrong with a goatee..

[maaz]

well, most prolly its us hanafi folk that got these issues. its wajib on us to have fist length. perhaps thats why us hanafis are passionate and perhaps say things they shouldn't....but yah man, conversation over!!

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Apologise for previous post. Such remarks were purely from the perspective of the ppl who have issues. As mentioned earlier certain groups have issues about him. But if the Ulama don't have a major issue with it then so be it.

Oh and about the pics...dunno if that seems alright...but maybe someone ought to contact them about taking pics of sistas...although if they were ok with it then so be it...anywyz...

Me is sorry.

The previous post I posted was or were a summarised edition of opinions regarding Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

[VeiledOne]

Apologise for previous post. Such remarks were purely from the perspective of the ppl who have issues. As mentioned earlier certain groups have issues about him. But if the Ulama don't have a major issue with it then so be it.

Oh and about the pics...dunno if that seems alright...but maybe someone ought to contact them about taking pics of sistas...although if they were ok with it then so be it...anywyz...

Me is sorry.

The previous post I posted was or were a summarised edition of opinions regarding Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.


Good point about the pics sister. It doesnt seem too traditional.

[verity]

assalamu alaikum

many of the actions, opinions, alegiances, methodologies, tone, vibe, focus, etc. of several of zaytuna's leaders and a great many more of its followers differ with those of traditional ulema past and present, especially traditional ulema connected uninteruptedly to any of the accepted chains of sunnah-following tasawwuf.

yet, despite the many, many breaks from tradition, zaytuna operates under the guise of traditionalism. this is the problem. if they would call it like it is...call themselves neo-traditionalists, or quasi-traditionalist, or classical revisionist or something of the sort, then you'd see a lot fewer traditional-minded and -trained muslims and scholars grimacing at zaytuna's active promotion of stuff like clapping and standing ovations (think isna); the closest of allegiances with silk tie and suit wearing, non-segregated, female singing, sunna flaunting nawawi foundation nonsense; a fization of proving the soundness of a linguistic arguement for a gotee equaling a shar'ee beard; zaytuna alumni using salat and ulema and the name of Allah as the butt of jokes in newfangled "islamic comedy" routines (think RIS); repeatedly bemoning the loss of rachel corey and reciting poetry in her memory while rarely speaking about the loss of muslim "insurgents and terrorists" struggling as she was against the same sorts of oppression; calls for disarmament of Muslim nations; blanket statements against the ulema like "in my opinion, the ulema have not done their job after 9/11"; Zaytuna leadership's repeated attempts to publicly exhonorate themselves from the critiques of unamed ulema and Muslim leaders whose numbers are legion by saying things like "i answer to Allah"; likening khalid ibn walid radiallaahu anhu to those who commit horrendous and unjustifiable acts of terror in the name of islam, and advising the Muslims to "be free" of what such people do (and not mentioning radiallaahu anhu after his name in the process); wasting valuable speaking opportunities to focus on driving home political messages and making social critiques rather than doing surgery on the hearts of the listening audience like the good old days of sheikh hamza; assuming the role of spokespeople for the ummah and islamic scholarship rather than sticking to the role of zaytuna teachers and leaders; etc, etc, etc.

these and much, much more are blatantly obvious to one who looks no further than the audio/visual and print materials proudly posted on the zaytuna website.

we should call a spade a spade. is sheikh hamza and co to be respected and commended for the great good they have done and continue to do? yes. should we think bad of the intentions of zaytuna leadership? no. have some of their statements, actions, opinions, contradictory messages caused confusion or otherwise have a negative impact on Muslims and our interests? yes. is zaytuna traditional in the way sheikh nuh and his students or maulana zulfiqar ahmed and his students, or mufti taqi, or mufti muhammad ibn adam, or maulana ahmad ali, or maulana riyadul-haq, or maulana saleem dorat, or the memon family in buffalo, or those running the darul-ulooms anywhere, or leaders of tabligh like hafiz patel, or the shafi ulema of hadramaut, or even the noble shuyookh of mauritania are? no. notice that with the exception of the last two or three in this list all others have deep connections in the west. should we turn a blind eye from breaks with tradition, the body of relied upon scholarly opinion, and common sense? no.

admittedly, the opinion expressed by sidi faraz rabbani in the pasted quote in a previous post seems to take exception to some of what i've just written, though in truth I don't think it does. It seems more like a good and needed bit of advice to keep husnuththann (good thoughts) about others and to refrain from making blanket judgements about a person's intentions or character, thereby spreading fitna and confusion.

where there's smoke, there's fire. consider all the discussion by hard core sunnis about persons at zaytuna, and don't doubt that somethings are not as they ought to be.

assalamu alaikum.

[maaz]

every human effort will have areas of weakness, we can focus on the weakness and let it become a festering issue. or we can look at our own inherent weaknesses and work on them, inshallah. the western indo-pak scholors, as well as from maritauna, and haduramaut, south yemenl have their own weaknesses, just as zaytuna does.

May Allah increase and accept the true efforts of deen that bring ppl close to Allah in one way or another and cause our hearts to overlook differences and weaknesses.

I remember a story i dunno from where, but a shaykh used to make some fabric. that was his income. so he wove a beautiful piece of cloth to the very best of his ability. thereafter he proceeded to the market to sell it. when a potential buyer looked at it, examined it, he pointed out a multitude of mistakes on the fabric. the shaykh become very disturbed and moved to tears, if this man (the buyer) is so particular about the cloth, looking for weaknesses, what will be my condition when i stand in front of Allah and he looks at my deeds?

anyways, thats it from my side....

[faqir]

The danger is when we consider the truth--to use Imam Ghazali's expression--to be a private waqf of one's own way.


Umar Ibn Abd al Aziz said:

"It would not please me if the Companions of Muhammad, salallah alayhi wasaalam, had not disagreed, for had they not done so, no mercy would have come down."

Sufyan Al Thawri said:

"If you see a man doing something over which there is a debate among the scholars, and which you yourself believe to be forbidden, you should not forbid him from doing it."

Imam Nawawi mentioned something similar:

"Scholars only protest against that which musters unanimous consensus: as for what does not muster unanimous consensus, then there is no permission to protest"

Yahyah bin Said said:

"The people of knowledge are a people of broadness. They continue to give fatwas that are different form each other, and no scholar reproaches another scholar for his opinion."




If you ask the scholars in the Arab lands--in Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, the Hejaz, and elsewhere--who know Shaykh Hamza, you'll find that they have only the highest of regards and praise for him.


.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

<<many of the actions, opinions, alegiances, methodologies, tone, vibe, focus, etc. of several of zaytuna's leaders and a great many more of its followers differ with those of traditional ulema past and present, especially traditional ulema connected uninteruptedly to any of the accepted chains of sunnah-following tasawwuf.>>

i would be interested in what exactly you mean by the above.

<<yet, despite the many, many breaks from tradition, zaytuna operates under the guise of traditionalism. this is the problem. if they would call it like it is...call themselves neo-traditionalists, or quasi-traditionalist, or classical revisionist or something of the sort, then you'd see a lot fewer traditional-minded and -trained muslims and scholars grimacing at zaytuna's active promotion of stuff like clapping and standing ovations (think isna);>>

applause in itself, if not done in a masjid, or for in ibadat, is not haram. check sunnipath for the hukm on this. secondly, standing ovations, although inherently unislamic cannot be said to be haram, depending on who it is for. standing as a mark of respect for the ulama is definitely permissible - you can read the treatise of Imam al-Nawawi on this, backed by ibn Hajaf after that. as for zaytuna's 'active promotion' of this, i still fail to understand what you mean. do they teach their students to do these things? i don't believe they do, having first hand experience with people who have studies there. secondly, although Shaykh Hamza speaks at ISNA, the two are very different, and not directly connected. that is why ISNA invites speakers from all sides of Islam - not something you will see at Zaytuna.

<<the closest of allegiances with silk tie and suit wearing, non-segregated, female singing, sunna flaunting nawawi foundation nonsense;>>

?? elaborate please.

<<a fization of proving the soundness of a linguistic arguement for a gotee equaling a shar'ee beard;>>

not the beard again - please take time to read the various opinions on the beard, because the hanafi opinion is not binding on everyone i'm afraid. if you willing, search for Habib Ali's small treatise on the requirements of the beard. in addition, research the various opinions on the maliki school. also, take into consideration what is possible to grow - not everyone has the ability to grow hair everywhere on their face!

<<zaytuna alumni using salat and ulema and the name of Allah as the butt of jokes in newfangled "islamic comedy" routines (think RIS);>>

if you are talking azhar usman - you need to rethink what you wrote. if you are talking about other issues, again you are far too vague for me to take any notice.

<<repeatedly bemoning the loss of rachel corey and reciting poetry in her memory while rarely speaking about the loss of muslim "insurgents and terrorists" struggling as she was against the same sorts of oppression;>>

oh please.... Shaykh Hamza, by speaking of such people, only does so so that Muslims don't have a generalised hatred for Americans and ameican people. he was simply stating that there are good people out there. there is no need to turn this into a counter argument and ask why he does not say such and such about insurgents and terrorists. in fact, i read a recent 'fatwa' on a jihadist site permitting the killing of americans anywhere, and their interests....

apart from that Shaykh Hamza has repeatedly stated that Muslims have the right to defend themselves, as has Imam Zaid Shakir, as has Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi. The latter is quite outspoken about the rights of Muslims to defend their lands - and he spends a considerable amount of time at the 'pseudo-traditional' zaytuna institute, and stays at Shaykh Hamza's house. what he said has no concerns.

<<calls for disarmament of Muslim nations;>>

ok, i understand that this is not acceptable to many (inclulding me) - but as sidi faraz said, you don't have to agree with him on everything. that is his opinion. he is against warfare, and against armaments of any country, not just muslims lands. and without a doubt, he has reason to express his concern on the methods of modern warfare, which cause much unwanted destruction not only at the time of attack but for years and years to come.

the armament of nations is of course a problem - because the money spent on this is a massive percentage of the total expense - something that clearly needs to be addressed when there are millions of muslims with little or no access to clean water, acceptable health care and so on.

<<blanket statements against the ulema like "in my opinion, the ulema have not done their job after 9/11";>>

he is allowed to have an opinion!! disagree if you wish. this is not a matter of fiqh or aqida that necessitates any shunning from an islamic perspective.


<<these and much, much more are blatantly obvious to one who looks no further than the audio/visual and print materials proudly posted on the zaytuna website.>>

whats exacly your problem with the material?

<<have some of their statements, actions, opinions, contradictory messages caused confusion or otherwise have a negative impact on Muslims and our interests? yes.>>

how exaclty? i am not at all confused by the message they are sending. it may you are misunderstanding that message. they want dialogue and understanding. most 'reasonable' muslims in the west want the same, rather than just sitting back and waiting for the clash of civilisations. why not try and stop it, even if it seems a hefty task.

<<is zaytuna traditional in the way sheikh nuh and his students or maulana zulfiqar ahmed and his students, or mufti taqi, or mufti muhammad ibn adam, or maulana ahmad ali, or maulana riyadul-haq, or maulana saleem dorat, or the memon family in buffalo, or those running the darul-ulooms anywhere, or leaders of tabligh like hafiz patel, or the shafi ulema of hadramaut, or even the noble shuyookh of mauritania are? no.>>

depends what you mean by traditional. certainly their islamic curriculum can't be more traditional. the question should be do they abide by the methods permitted in the shariah whilst running this institution, and my answer to that is yes.

<<notice that with the exception of the last two or three in this list all others have deep connections in the west.>>

and Shaykh Nuh speaks very highly of Shaykh Hamza - remember that also.

<<should we turn a blind eye from breaks with tradition, the body of relied upon scholarly opinion, and common sense? no.>>

again, you need to more specific. what breaks from tradition? what 'relied upon opinion'? secondly, Shaykh Hamza is now a widely followed by non-muslims, especially the media - thus his speeches and talks may take on a tone that is only more understandable to the western audience - after all, we are living in the west, and as immigrants, what is you role here, if it is not dawah? Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi stated that the only justification for living in the west is dawah.

<<admittedly, the opinion expressed by sidi faraz rabbani in the pasted quote in a previous post seems to take exception to some of what i've just written, though in truth I don't think it does. It seems more like a good and needed bit of advice to keep husnuththann (good thoughts) about others and to refrain from making blanket judgements about a person's intentions or character, thereby spreading fitna and confusion.>>

i don't think sidi faraz doubts the character, intentions and knowledge of Shaykh Hamza. in fact - have you spent a week with Shaykh Hamza, or even a day?

have you ever been to zaytuna?

[abdushakur]

this thread seems to be made up of three types of ppl,
those that love Shk. Hamza Yusuf and defend him under all circumstances, those that dont really 'follow' him and question his approach to a few things and those that dont know enough to form an opinion either way.

i am of the latter group. in any case its not my nature to cuss fellow muslims who others respect.

bcos this thread seems to be an appropriate place for Q&A re: SHYusuf id just like to know if the following are true:

1. a long time back, SHY was in the mid east (i think it was the gulf area) and someone said something against Rasulullah (peace be upon him), so SHY was enraged and struck that person physically.
is this a credible report?
(personally if it is true id give him enuff respect just for this)

2. after 9/11 when SHY was giving many public interviews etc. he was filmed shaking the hand of a woman.
is this a true account?
(and if it is can it be put down to the fact that there is a difference of opinion re: handshaking opposite gender? is there?)

jazakallah khayr.

btw, i am not anti-SHY

i just havent really been exposed to is teachings.

[maaz]

i think those "reports" although they're not yours and just heresay are just inflammatory. we shouldn't spy on ppl, nor even LOOK for weaknesses.

[Omar HH]

I love Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, I agree with 99% of the things he says. The only thing I disagree with him on his his approach to education. Everything else that I know of that he's said I totally agree with. He's my favorite!!

[VeiledOne]

is sheikh hamza and co to be respected and commended for the great good they have done and continue to do? yes. should we think bad of the intentions of zaytuna leadership? no. have some of their statements, actions, opinions, contradictory messages caused confusion or otherwise have a negative impact on Muslims and our interests? yes. is zaytuna traditional in the way sheikh nuh and his students or maulana zulfiqar ahmed and his students, or mufti taqi, or mufti muhammad ibn adam, or maulana ahmad ali, or maulana riyadul-haq, or maulana saleem dorat, or the memon family in buffalo, or those running the darul-ulooms anywhere, or leaders of tabligh like hafiz patel, or the shafi ulema of hadramaut, or even the noble shuyookh of mauritania are? no. notice that with the exception of the last two or three in this list all others have deep connections in the west. should we turn a blind eye from breaks with tradition, the body of relied upon scholarly opinion, and common sense? no.


assalamu alaikum.


walaikum asalaam,

well said brother.

[faqir]

walaikum asalaam,

well said brother.


Sounds like a load of rubbish to me.

[salman]

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me.

Some yes (not rubbish but maybe inaccurate), other points no. Lets keep the comments clean.

wasalam

[abdul518ca]

zaytuna operates under the guise of traditionalism. this is the problem.
This is the only problem I have with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

"O Believers! Why do you say what you do not do..."

But who cares, Zaytuna is the happeist place on earth. The Eid-ul-Adha slideshow is simply amazing.


http://www.zaytuna.org/photomoments3/mediafiles/l122.jpg
http://www.zaytuna.org/photomoments3/mediafiles/l125.jpg

[Mossy]

Yeah, accuse them of being hypocritical why doncha.

What definition of traditional? Hanafi? Shafi? Maliki? Looking at verity's post, I would wonder why some of said individuals associate with Sh Hamza/Zaytuna and would hesitate to venture that that is an incorrect appeal to authority. Putting words in people's mouths is never good, nor is guessing their opinions and interpolating your own into this. Suspicion is bad. Mmkay.

[ahsanirfan]

This is the only problem I have with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

"O Believers! Why do you say what you do not do..."

But who cares, Zaytuna is the happeist place on earth. The Eid-ul-Adha slideshow is simply amazing.

[pic edited by mod: sorry, duplicate pics not really needed]

it wud really help if we cud define "traditionalism"

a tangible link to our tradition would be an unfaltering Sanad in a particular science... i'm sure SHY possesses that, in the maliki fiqh....

you could also say that we need to "adorn" onto ourselves the things that "traditional" muslims wear, or do?

or is it that SHY is a modernist under the guise of what may seem to be traditional Islam?

as far as I can see, their curriculum includes traditional sources, texts of fiqh, tasawwuf, etc... i knw people who went to zaytuna and did some of their courses.. and found nothing wrong with it....

or is it that SHY's "departure" from the accepted "traditional" norm, with regards to clothing, behaving, talking, is somehow disturbing to people?

i do not understand... in what way has SHY "broken" from the tradition? really... i fail to understand this...

as a scholar he has a right to hold certain opinions.... and belonging to certain schools of thoughts ourselves.. we have a right to disagree as well.. but what right do we have to say that he "operates under a guise of traditionalism" or that "he has broken away from the tradition"

there are plenty of modernists, progressives etc who do all that already.... and as it so seems, they are being accepted by the Western communities... then why would anyone want to disguise himself in the grab of "traditionalism" and sell "moderism" under that garb?

if he has made mistakes... he is human.... who are we to have problems with a scholar.. do we knw what he knows?

SHY does have problems... but then again.. every scholar has problems with every other scholar.. Ds with Bs... Bs with Ds.. the Haqqanis with the Murabitun, the Murabitun with the Haqqanis.... Sufis with the Salafis, Salafis with the Sufis.... u name it.. we got it....

is this justification to criticise those who have opened the doors of Islam to the west? we need a more solid ground than that to criticize SHY....

[ahsanirfan]

and to put the icing on the cake

ive heard favourable comments from Mufti Yusuf abt SHY... since I take him to be my Sheikh in Fiqh.... id be happy with this apparent appeasement....

[Omar HH]

Why, why, why? Why do we have to spend our time criticizing him. Yes, okay, I am a little bias being that he's my absolute favorite no.1 Shaykh. Anyways he has Sunni aqeedah and Maliki fiqh - thats traditional.

[YaNabi]

Assalamualaikum

It's sad that people fail to realize, feel and appreciate the immense postiveness and strenght Shaykh Hamza have brought to Islam in the North American continent. There are few people like him in every era...truly a gem!

May Allah swt Preserve Him...ameen

[Nayab]

May Allah swt save us from those that create doubts and spread ignorance. ameen.

May Allah swt preserve our precious ulema of this mellenia. ameen.

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Originally Posted by verity
assalamu alaikum

many of the actions, opinions, alegiances, methodologies, tone, vibe, focus, etc. of several of zaytuna's leaders and a great many more of its followers differ with those of traditional ulema past and present, especially traditional ulema connected uninteruptedly to any of the accepted chains of sunnah-following tasawwuf.

yet, despite the many, many breaks from tradition, zaytuna operates under the guise of traditionalism. this is the problem. if they would call it like it is...call themselves neo-traditionalists, or quasi-traditionalist, or classical revisionist or something of the sort, then you'd see a lot fewer traditional-minded and -trained muslims and scholars grimacing at zaytuna's active promotion of stuff like clapping and standing ovations (think isna); the closest of allegiances with silk tie and suit wearing, non-segregated, female singing, sunna flaunting nawawi foundation nonsense; a fization of proving the soundness of a linguistic arguement for a gotee equaling a shar'ee beard; zaytuna alumni using salat and ulema and the name of Allah as the butt of jokes in newfangled "islamic comedy" routines (think RIS); repeatedly bemoning the loss of rachel corey and reciting poetry in her memory while rarely speaking about the loss of muslim "insurgents and terrorists" struggling as she was against the same sorts of oppression; calls for disarmament of Muslim nations; blanket statements against the ulema like "in my opinion, the ulema have not done their job after 9/11"; Zaytuna leadership's repeated attempts to publicly exhonorate themselves from the critiques of unamed ulema and Muslim leaders whose numbers are legion by saying things like "i answer to Allah"; likening khalid ibn walid radiallaahu anhu to those who commit horrendous and unjustifiable acts of terror in the name of islam, and advising the Muslims to "be free" of what such people do (and not mentioning radiallaahu anhu after his name in the process); wasting valuable speaking opportunities to focus on driving home political messages and making social critiques rather than doing surgery on the hearts of the listening audience like the good old days of sheikh hamza; assuming the role of spokespeople for the ummah and islamic scholarship rather than sticking to the role of zaytuna teachers and leaders; etc, etc, etc.

these and much, much more are blatantly obvious to one who looks no further than the audio/visual and print materials proudly posted on the zaytuna website.

we should call a spade a spade. is sheikh hamza and co to be respected and commended for the great good they have done and continue to do? yes. should we think bad of the intentions of zaytuna leadership? no. have some of their statements, actions, opinions, contradictory messages caused confusion or otherwise have a negative impact on Muslims and our interests? yes. is zaytuna traditional in the way sheikh nuh and his students or maulana zulfiqar ahmed and his students, or mufti taqi, or mufti muhammad ibn adam, or maulana ahmad ali, or maulana riyadul-haq, or maulana saleem dorat, or the memon family in buffalo, or those running the darul-ulooms anywhere, or leaders of tabligh like hafiz patel, or the shafi ulema of hadramaut, or even the noble shuyookh of mauritania are? no. notice that with the exception of the last two or three in this list all others have deep connections in the west. should we turn a blind eye from breaks with tradition, the body of relied upon scholarly opinion, and common sense? no.

admittedly, the opinion expressed by sidi faraz rabbani in the pasted quote in a previous post seems to take exception to some of what i've just written, though in truth I don't think it does. It seems more like a good and needed bit of advice to keep husnuththann (good thoughts) about others and to refrain from making blanket judgements about a person's intentions or character, thereby spreading fitna and confusion.

where there's smoke, there's fire. consider all the discussion by hard core sunnis about persons at zaytuna, and don't doubt that somethings are not as they ought to be.

assalamu alaikum.

CERTAIN points expressed in the above post is the actual expression of the opinions of certain Ulama and Shuyukh.

I kind of agree on the points of Jihaad and female segragation...although about the whole Muslim comedy routine...you ought to check United Muslims out on that too as well as a couple of other Muslim organizations...

Also concerning the RIS conference...This conference was not endorsed or had anything to do with Hamza Yusuf in fact it was organized with the youth of Toronto. Therefore criticising him on this account is very unfair.

Others opinions must be considered, and calling them rubbish (and the like) is very 'unislamic'...certainly our anger may get the best of us...but this is one of the areas in which we should enjoin the Prophet (s.a.w)'s Sunnah in conduct and speech...for more information check out an awesome lecture by Shaykh Aboo Yusuf Riyadh Al Haqq...(Sunnah in Conduct and Character)

No hard feelings hopefully.

Assalamu alaikum

[Azzam]

I disagree with many things about the zaytuna institute. It would be pointless to discuss it here.

However, the positions about the Jihad and the Jihad movements from this place I strongly disagree with. But I still do not know why everyone or some people are surprised at this point (about Jihad) anyway.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

I disagree with many things about the zaytuna institute. It would be pointless to discuss it here.

However, the positions about the Jihad and the Jihad movements from this place I strongly disagree with. But I still do not know why everyone or some people are surprised at this point (about Jihad) anyway.

you disagree buts it pointless to discuss it.... then brother, why say it in the first place... the hadith of speaking good or remaining silent comes to mind.

the positions on jihad which you appear to have understood as 'promoted' by Zaytuna are simply evidences from the sunnah.

[Azzam]

you disagree buts it pointless to discuss it.... then brother, why say it in the first place... the hadith of speaking good or remaining silent comes to mind.

the positions on jihad which you appear to have understood as 'promoted' by Zaytuna are simply evidences from the sunnah.

Something can be said to where it must be said without going into an argument of circles. I can state a position and leave out the details, because leaving out the details is more of a benefit in this situation, because it will go no where.

"No" the positions on Jihad from this place are not wholly based on the Sunnah. There may be bits and pieces and other evidences used which are taken out of context, but as a whole they are not. Neither would I ever take from Jihad matters from people who never did or are not doing Jihad unless they are in line with what Islam says.

[Abdul]

Salam

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam also seems to have a good opinion about Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. See what he has to say in the following article, taken from daruliftaa.com:

Are Indo-Pak Scholars Strong in the Islamic Sciences?

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You mentioned that the TOP ulema of the Indo-Pak subcontinent as good as those found in Arab lands if not better. But my question is, are there as many TOP ulema in the Indo-Pak subcontinent as there are in, for example, Syria, or are there fewer, or more?

The reason for asking is because my parents want me to study Islam in the Indo-Pak subcontinent but I, for some reason (perhaps because of the years I spent in my teens as a devout Salafi) cannot seem to shake off the belief that somehow my religious education would be lacking if I were to go to the Indo-Pak subcontinent (especially with regard to learning Arabic since when listening to some of their recited Qaris it still seems as though they cannot properly pronoucne anywhere from 4-7 letters found in Arabic) and that in order to "advance" in my studies I would have to go to Arab lands, meaning that I could start out my education in the Indo-Pak subcontinent, but not "complete" it. Sorry for so many questions, may Allah reward you and everyone else on the forum who put up with people like me.





Question # q-18034012
Date Posted: 21/03/2004


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Answer: In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

One of the many reasons and factors that contribute in a youngster becoming a Salafi in the west is the idea of rebelling and going against one’s parents and elders. Many youngsters have the notion that their parents and forefathers who have come from “back home” have no idea of what true Islam is.

They think that the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic and the books of Sunnah are also in Arabic, thus our parents and elders don’t even have a clue what they mean. They are merely following the ways, traditions and customs of their forefathers which is not the correct Islam that is practiced in the Arab countries.

When these youngsters are honoured with the visit to the sacred places in Makkah al-Mukarrama and Madina al-Munawwara, they say to themselves that these are Arabs who offer their Salat, etc differently from what our parents and elders have taught us. Surely, they understand Islam better than our “traditional” parents.

They see that the Muslims in Saudi Arabia are fluent Arabic speakers whilst our elders and also Imams can’t even speak the language. Our Parents and elders don’t know what they are talking about, for they can’t even pronounce the words of the Arabic language correctly.

The above is the kind of understanding that unfortunately our youngsters have. This is the reason why they try and learn some Arabic words, such as how are you (kayfa haluka) or (hayyak Allah), etc…and by doing so, some of them think that they are now much more knowledgeable than their parents, elders and Imams who are from “back home”.

There is no denying the fact that parents and elders must also take their share of the blame for this unfortunate occurrence. Our youngsters have been left ignorant of sacred and Islamic knowledge. They are not taught the basics of Aqidah, Hadith, Fiqh, etc. And when they pose a question with regards to a proof (dalil) of some matter, they are rebuked and told not to indulge too deep in these matters. In the local Madrasas (maktabs) where a child spends around 10 years of his life, he comes out without really even learning the basics of his religion. He is told to concentrate more on the Urdu language (not that I condone the learning of Urdu), rather than Arabic. He probably does not have an in-depth understanding of what the four Fqih Madhhabs are, who was Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi’i, etc… and why we follow a Madhhab, and the list goes on.

For many of the parents and societies, attending the evening Madrasas has just become a routine thing, where a child can spend his time rather than trouble the parents at home. The curriculum taught in some of these Madrasas are also non-productive, thus the child graduates from the Madrasa without really learning much about his Deen. This is dirty laundry but the reality and we all need to really wake up and smell the coffee!

The consequence of the above is that these youngsters rebel against their parents, elders and against society at large. They are sadly recruited by others who promise them to give them proofs (dalils) from the Qur’an and Sunnah, and are not prevented from asking anything they desire. They are bombarded with Hadiths from Sahih al-Bukhari, Shahih Muslim and other places that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) performed his Salat in such a way and raised his hands in such a way, etc. They are also taught some Arabic words which they longed to learn but were not able to do so in their own communities and societies. Thus, given the vulnerability of these youngsters, they become prey to this appealing and attractive invitation.

Therefore, Muslim communities in the West really need to reflect and ponder over the situation, thus try to rectify the deficiencies found therein. Youngsters must be taught the various sciences of Islamic knowledge, including basic Arabic, Aqidah, Fiqh, etc. Lessons and intensive courses need to be provided by which they can quench their thirst of learning Islamic knowledge, and by the grace of Allah, the recent upsurge in such events have had an immense effect on our youngsters. Hundreds (if not thousands) of youngsters have come back from the brink of becoming a Salafi through the endeavours of people like Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Shaykh Nuh Keller and others.

At the same time, our youngsters need to understand that there are great scholars and masters of Islamic knowledge in the Indian subcontinent also whom the great major Arab Ulama also respect. The great Hadith Scholar, Shaykh Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghudda (Allah have mercy on him) had great admiration, respect and regard for the scholars of Indo/Pak. He repeatedly travelled to these lands in order to learn and take from the great Hadith Masters there. He had Ijazahs from many great Shuyukh of the Indian Subcontinent, such as Shaykh Dhafar Ahmad Usmani (author of the great Hanafi encyclopaedia, I’la al-Sunan), Mufti Muhammad Shafi’, Shaykh Habib al-Rahman al-A’zami, Shaykh Muhammad Zakariyya al-Kandahlawi and many others. He himself stated that mastery in the science of Hadith is the domain of the Shuyukh from the Indian Subcontinent.

Shaykh Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghudda’s teacher, the great Hadith and Hanafi expert, and master of disciplines, Imam Muhammad Zahid ibn al-Hassan al-Kawthari (Allah have mercy on him) was also very amazed by the scholarship and mastery of the Indian scholars. He made a special visit to India in order to meet and take from its scholars. Upon meeting and listening to the discourses of the great Hadith master, Imam Anwar Shah al-Kashmiri (Allah have mercy on him), he said: “The world has not witnessed anyone like him since Ibn al-Humam (the great Hanafi Mujtahid) in deriving the rules from the great Hadith collections. He also has great words of praise for Imam Ashraf Ali al-Tahanawi and Shaykh Shabbir Ahmad al-Usmani (Allah have mercy on them). (See: Maqalat al-Kawthari)

The Indian subcontinent has witnessed great masters in the science of Hadith and Fiqh to which the whole world, including the Arab scholars, is indebted. No major Islamic library is empty from the works of these great scholars. They compiled some major works (in Arabic) that are unparalleled in recent times, such as:

1) I’la al-Sunan: A great 18 volume encyclopaedia in Hanafi Fiqh which amazed the world over. Arab Scholars were also amazed by the brilliance of the author, Shaykh Dhafar Ahmad al-Usmani who compiled this work under the supervision and instruction of his uncle and teacher, Imam Ashraf Ali al-Tahanawi (Allah have mercy on them both)

2) Bazl al-Majhud fi hal Sunan Abi Dawud: One of the most detailed commentary in Arabic on the Sunan of Imam Abu Dawud in approximately 20 volumes, authored by Shaykh Khalil Ahmad al-Saharanfuri (Allah have mercy on him).

3) Fath al-Mulhim Sharh Sahih Muslim by Shaykh Shabbir Ahmad al-Usmani (Allah have mercy on him): A commentary on the Sahih of Imam Muslim which remained incomplete until the great contemporary Hadith and Fiqh master, my respected teacher, Shaykh Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani (Allah have mercy on him) completed it.

Regarding the original work by Shaykh Shabbir Ahmad al-Usmani, the great Imam Zahid al-Kawthari wrote a whole article in his “al-Maqalat” stating that it filled the gaps left by the early commentators of Sahih Muslim including Imam Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him)

4) Awjaz al-Masalik ila Mu’atta Imam Malik: The Arabic commentary in around 20 volumes on the Mu’atta of Imam Malik by the great Indian Hadith master, Shaykh al-Hadith, Imam Muhammad Zakariyya al-Kandahlawi (Allah have mercy on him).

There are many more works, such as Faydh al Bari (commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari in 4 volumes) by Imam Anwar Shah al-Kashmiri, Ma’arif al-Sunan (commentary on Sunan Tirmidhi) by Shaykh Yusuf Binnori, works of Shaykh Habib al-Rahman al-A’zami, Hayat al-Sahabah by Shaykh Yusyuf al-Kandahlawi, and of course the works of the great Hadith and Fiqh master, Imam Abd al-Hay al-Lakhnawi (Allah have mercy on them).

The scholars of the Indian subcontinent were also masters in the Arabic language. The late Shaykh Abu al-Hasan Nadwi (Allah have mercy on him) is a great example of this who took the world by storm. Scholars from around the globe admired and respected him and his works. Even the Salafis did not condemn him, and when he passed away recently, his Janaza prayer was offered in both the Harams of Makkah and Madinah.

The idea some Asian people have regarding the scholars of the Indian subcontinent that they don’t know the Arabic language properly etc is totally baseless and incorrect. Rather, they have been the masters in the various Islamic sciences and acknowledged by the Scholars of the whole world.

There are also great cotemporary scholars in the Indian subcontinent. A great example of this is Shaykh Mufti Taqi Usmani (Allah preserve him), who’s brilliance in Hadith, Fiqh and understanding of contemporary matters is recognized by the whole world. He- despite being a non-Arab- was appointed as a deputy chairman of the International Islamic Fiqh Academy, a body that comprises of over 400 top major scholars of the world.

Another Scholar from the Indian subcontinent, Shaykh Salman Nadwi (Allah preserve him) whose eloquence and fluency in the Arabic language make people wonder whether he is an Arab. In one of his recent visits to Syria, the Shaykh had discourses in different institutions and for the Shuyukh of Syria. Many scholars of Damascus gathered in order to listen to the Shaykh in a programme that was exclusively designed for the Ulama of Sham.

There is also the great Hadith master, Shaykh Yunus al-Junfuri of Saharanpur in India. He has dedicated his life for the teaching of Hadith where he teaches over 6/7 hours a day the science of Hadith and its principles. He is an expert in the field of al-Asma wa al-Rijal (a critical analysis of the reporters of Hadith).

Therefore, you must remove the idea that the scholars of the Indian subcontinent are not that great. In recent rimes, in the science of Hadith and Hanafi Fiqh, they have probably surpassed the Arab scholars. They also have a very good grasp of the Arabic language.

However, as with all languages, if one was not to practically engage in speaking a language, one will not be that fluent and comfortable with it. Some Scholars of the Indo/Pak, despite understanding and reading the Arabic language fully, are not able to speak it that fluently, for the simple reason that there is no constant practice. They hardly speak Arabic among themselves, thus they loose touch of the language. The medium of teaching in most of the religious institutions (Dar al-Uloom) is also not Arabic (although the books taught are all in Arabic), thus students don’t have the exposure to the language.

This is something that is most definitely unfortunate and which I strongly feel about. The medium in these institutions must be changed from Urdu to Arabic (or at least English, in the West). I myself in a Dar al-Uloom here in Leicester, teach all the books (including the famous Hanafi treatise al-Hidaya) in English. One lesson is also taught fully in Arabic.

Thus, more concentration is definitely needed on the Arabic language. In my recent visit to Madina al-Munawwara, I was fortunate to meet and spend some time in the company of the great Syrian Hadith and Hanafi scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Awwama (Allah preserve him). He also raised his concern regarding this issue and stated that something should be done in order to make the medium in all these institutions into Arabic, and I fully agree with him. This is a weak point with regards to these institutions and something that really needs to be looked into by the major scholars.

Having said that, it does not mean that all the scholars of the Indian subcontinent are poor in the Arabic language, rather, as stated previously, many of the scholars are well versed in the language. The Nadwat al-Ulama in Lakhnaw (India) is known for its high standards in the Arabic language. They concentrate extensively on teaching students the Arabic language, both reading/writing and also speaking.

The Arabs however, without doubt are more eloquent in Arabic, for firstly, it is their mother tongue and obviously that makes a difference. Secondly, the medium of instruction in their institutions is Arabic, thus the students and teachers all constantly speak one language. Therefore, they are generally better versed in the Arabic language.

In conclusion, there is good in both the Arab world and the Indian Subcontinent. There are great scholars in both places, thus it would be wise (if reasonably possible) to study in both places.

My personal advice would be that you first go to somewhere like Syria or Yemen and master the Arabic language by concentrating on Nahw (grammar) Sarf (morphology) Balaghah (Rhetoric) and Adab (literature). It would also be wise to study the science of Tajwid, Aqidah (creed), principles of Hadith (Usul/Mustalah al-Hadith), principles of Fiqh (Usul al-Fiqh) and Fiqh.

Syria and Egypt are known for their brilliance in the science of Qur’anic recitation (tajwid) where students may master the various different recitations (qira’ats). By studying the above subjects in the Arab world, you will become quite fluent in the Arabic language, something that will help in you studying the other sciences.

Thereafter, you may go and complete your studies in the Indian subcontinent where you may study Tafsir, Hadith and Hanfi Fiqh in depth. This will give you the opportunity to study the major books of Hadith completely with chains of transmissions (isnad) going back to their authors and subsequently to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) himself. Also, you will become well-versed in Hanafi Fiqh.

By studying in both places, you will have the chance to gather the treasures found in the Arab world and in the Ajam. May Allah choose whatever is better for you and for all the brothers and sisters who wish to seek sacred knowledge. May Allah Most High make it easy for all of us, Insha Allah.

And Allah knows best

Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

Something can be said to where it must be said without going into an argument of circles. I can state a position and leave out the details, because leaving out the details is more of a benefit in this situation, because it will go no where.

"No" the positions on Jihad from this place are not wholly based on the Sunnah. There may be bits and pieces and other evidences used which are taken out of context, but as a whole they are not. Neither would I ever take from Jihad matters from people who never did or are not doing Jihad unless they are in line with what Islam says.

1. you disagree with many things about zaytuna institute, yet you did not state them. thats a pointless statement brother. what benefit is your opinion to anyone in this forum if it does not hold any weight, or meaning.

2. 'in this place' meaning zaytuna? like what exactly - who from and who said it.

this means nothing to me.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

while this thread has largely remained quite well-controlled, i fear that it may deteriorate quite rapidly... its quite unfortunate that we have a thread criticising one particular scholar, especially when it appears most members of the forum appreciate him. perhaps the moderators should consider locking it?