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Aamir
18-01-2005, 07:09 PM
Assalam Alaikum

I hav been speaking to a brother who is a perwezi..i.e he completely rejects the notion of hadith...he claims that only the quran is sufficient for us in living according to islam.. He says that people who follow hadith give precedence of hdith over quran..he cites examples

(1)Imam Abu Hanifah calling prawn makrooh..whilst the quran has stated that ALL things in the sea are allowable for consupmtion.

(2) The punishment of the one who commits adultry..the quran recommends lashings and doesent mention stoning as a punishment for adultry..yet some muslims belive in stoning the ones that were married and commited adultry.

He also claims that many ahadith contradict the quran..he also says that Allah allmighty promised to preserve the quran..however there is no guarentee of preserving the hadith. He bad mouths the likes of imam Bukhari etc

I tried to explain to him that the quran says "establish prayer" but doesent show us how to, hence we look in hadith, however according to him..salah just like all he other obligations have been passed on from generation to generation form prophet Ibrahim (Alay salams) time, and thats how they have reached us now...so ther was no need for hadith.

I unfortunateley am not as knowledgeabable as perhaps i should and hence cant really refute these claims..

I humbly request some help in this very serious matter. Jazakallah


For example are ther any practices that have no mention in the quran yet all muslims accept pureley based upon sunnah

Idrees
18-01-2005, 07:17 PM
Salaam
bro i'll let someone else answer your question but last time i heard this was when Mufti Saiful Islam of Bradford got called to someone house in midle of the night to help a mother and father after their son became a hadith rejector.
They debated for 2 hours and Mufti Saheb had the persons mouth shut at over 20 occasions and all he ahd to say was it your words against mine.
Anyway
What i wanted to say was , they is no point debating with someone if he has not got an open heart and if he is not willing to take the points into consideration.
Coz he wont change this way
He has to be ready and open.

ahsanirfan
18-01-2005, 08:13 PM
Salam o alaikum

Here is how I would imagine myself debating with such a person.

ME: You might as well reject the Quran, too, then.
REJECTOR: Why?
ME: They come down to us by the same medium, that is, oral transmission., backed by a chain of narrators.
REJECTOR: But the Quran was written down as soon as the Prophet died. Hadith was not.
ME: Wrong. Manuscripts of Abu Hurairaih's collection of ahadith exist in Samarkand, as do the earliest copies of the Quran. A lot of other Sahaba's hadith works are available in manuscripts. One only has to have the will to seek them out. If you reject hadith because you think they might have been invented, think the same for the Quran. How would you know that the Quran we have today is the same as the Quran of 1400 years ago?
REJECTOR: Manuscripts exist, as you said.
ME: Right, and what proof is there that these are the same manuscripts?
REJECTOR: The manuscripts show the same text as we have. Nothing has been changed.
ME: Right, and the same is the case with the hadith. The Sahaba wrote them down, and the manuscripts exist. Check them and you will find them to be exactly the same. If the Quran was written down, so were the ahadith.
REJECTOR: So why then do the hadith contradict the Quran?
ME: Do you know Arabic?
REJECTOR: No.
ME: Then how do you know they contradict the Quran?
REJECTOR: Well, people say....
ME: Well people say all sorts of ****. Unless you know Arabic to a very, very high degree, you cannot really comment on whether the hadith contradicts the Quran. In most cases of apparent contradiction, you find that the hadith is applied to a specific situation, while the Quran gives a general command. An example would be the establishment of prayer. The Quran says pray, ahadith provide the specifics.
REJECTOR: But isn't prayer handed down to us generation to generation from Ibrahim (a.s.)
ME: Any proof? Any sanad? Any manuscript? Unless you provide a sanad to back your claim, I can't really see how that is possible.
REJECTOR: And what about the seafood contradiction. Why did Abu Hanifa oppose the Quran on this one.
ME: It's IMAM Abu Hanifa. Have some respect. As for your query, how do you know the Quran says ALL seafood?
REJECTOR: Here. (He shows me a text)
ME: And you think that has been translated correctly? It's very simple. Say today a German, who does not know English comes to you. He wants to communicate with you. What would you do?
REJECTOR: Either I learn German, or he learns English.
ME: Correct. So let's assume you taught him English. He now knows English the way you understand it, simply because you taught it to him.
REJECTOR: So what's your point?
ME: Let me complete. Are we agreed on what I have said so far?
REJECTOR: Yes.
ME: So now he understands English with you as a reference. Whenever he reads an English work, he will keep your reference in mind and try to understand the text he is reading that way. Now answer me this, who were the first ones to learn the Quran?
REJECTOR: The Companions of the Prophet.
ME: Indeed. And what who taught it to them?
REJECTOR: The Prophet.
ME: So their point of reference was the Prophet?
REJECTOR: It certainly appears to be that way.
ME: So the Sahaba learnt it, making the Prophet a reference for themselves. How do you think the next generation took the Quran.
REJECTOR: Logicly, by reference of the Sahaba.
ME: See now this is the basis of the sanad, or chain that links us to the tradition. Would it not make sense then to refer it back to this linked tradition?
REJECTOR: Not when it contradicts the Quran. You still haven't answered my question about he seafood contradiction.
ME: Okay, answer me one more question. What other point of reference did the Arabs have to understand the Quran?
REJECTOR: Their language, Arabic?
ME: Precisely. And what reference did they have for Arabic.
REJECTOR: Their Jahili poetry?
ME: Precisely. So to make sure that you understand the Quran the way the Sahaba under stood it, you would have to learn the Arabic that they knew. Do you claim to have that knowledge of Arabic?
REJECTOR: No.
ME: So how can you say that the Quran says that ALL seafood is halaal. Is it not possible that Imam Abu Hanifa may have found a reference in Arabic to prove that ALL seafood was not intended by the verse. To him it is ALL seafood that lives ENTIRELY in water. He forbade those animals which live outside water too, like the Crustaceans. So for you the reference word "sea food" includes Crustaceans. It is quite possible that for Imam Abu Hanifa the word "seafood" as it is in Arabic excluded Crustaceans. Is that not the case?
REJECTOR: I see where this is going.
ME: You better, because by consensus of the 'ulama a hadith rejector is a kaafir.
REJECTOR: Hmmm. How about the adultery punishment contradiction?
ME: Yes, this is the second point I wanted to mention. If it is possible that the Quran mentions a generality, and the hadith mentions its specifics, it is also quite possible that the Quran may not deal with a generality at all. Instead it may deal with a specific hukum, and a hadith might give another specific hukum. This goes for the case of the adultery punishment. You, as a layman, do not know the specifics of the ayah for adultery punishment. We, without knowledge of Arabic, do not know what the ayah entails. I am told however, that the ayah deals with a specific punishment, that is, punishment of unmarried adulterers. Whereas the ahadith deal with married adulterers.
REJECTOR: I think the ayah is quite straight forward. It says....
ME: You mean the translation is quite straight forward. A twisted, deliberately clear translation, a mistake no doubt, on the part of your leader. Try learning the translations from someone who knows Arabic.
REJECTOR: I think Mr. Rashad knew Arabic quite well.
ME: Two things here: 1) If he did, he only knew Egyptian Arabic. As far as I know, he did not have ANY formal training in classical, ancient Arabic. 2) Even if he did, he went against what almost all Arab scholars have said. It does not make sense, that a guy today, with absolutely no knowledge of ancient classical Arabic is able to interpret ayahs more correctly than those, who knew classical Arabic in its entirety. So it really is a question of scholarship vs. stupidity.
REJECTOR: But how can you be sure that the ahadith are Sahih?
ME: How can you be sure that the Quran is the same? If you want to disbelieve in Hadith, you might as well disbelieve in the Quran. The only difference is that no one bothered to play with the wordings of the Quran. No one tried to make Tahreef. While for ahadith, people made false statements. So it really became an issue of sorting out the liar muhadditheen and keep them clear of the true muhadditheen.
REJECTOR: But wouldn't that apply to the Quran too?
ME: Not exactly. The Quran was something that could not be played with. Simply because there was a tawatur established. There were just too many narrators of the Quran. A false statement passed off as a Quranic verse would immediately be caught. The same goes for 500 or so ahadith as well. Other ahadith however, were specific to the situation. So the tawatur ahadith cannot be rejected, either. Other ahadith become subject to criticism, however. It may be that only one or two companions were sitting while the Prophet said something. If a hadith goes against the tawatur ahadith, that has to be rejected as well. And ahad ahadith also have to be criticzed to very large extent before being accepted or rejected. Ilm ul Hadith is not child's play that someone just throws it out the window.
REJECTOR: I see.
ME: You better.

Hope that helped.

Ma'as Salam

Idrees
18-01-2005, 08:38 PM
Salaam
pretty good dialogue

Ansari
18-01-2005, 09:08 PM
:salam:

This earlier topic might help: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2030&page=1&pp=10

Aamir
18-01-2005, 09:52 PM
Jazakallah for all your help..Brothers/Sisters i need as much information you can give me as possible..

I was just wondering is ther any actions in islam that all the muslims in the world accept which isnt found in quran and only in hadith/sunnah?

Also this hadith rejector always go's on about how the prophet had no authority to change the laws of Allah..yet he did (according to hadith)..

ahsanirfan
18-01-2005, 11:33 PM
Jazakallah for all your help..Brothers/Sisters i need as much information you can give me as possible..

I was just wondering is ther any actions in islam that all the muslims in the world accept which isnt found in quran and only in hadith/sunnah?

Also this hadith rejector always go's on about how the prophet had no authority to change the laws of Allah..yet he did (according to hadith)..

ask him to produce his proof and the brothers/sisters here will critique it...

Aamir
19-01-2005, 05:16 PM
Brothers.Sisters...this is what he said to me


wht r u confused bout? my view is dat i believe in da Quran and dat it is complete. im having my worries over da hadiths we have now...ppl were sayin Bukhari hadith is da most authentic...but i have found some of the da hadiths contradicts da Quran...contradict each other and it speak bout da "private" life off Prophet Muhammad which i feel is wrong.....im not just gonna follow somethin blindly just coz majority is following it...and i always see ppl saying dats haram, this is haram...without even checkin out in da Quran...if hadith say its haram means haram...just coz Quran doesnt mention it...again i feel dat is wrong

im actually confused over ur view...u said Quran is complete..u also said hadith shouldnt supercede Quran...but then why do u say only fish n locust is halal just coz its mention in Hadith... dint Quran say sea creatures r not forbidden...so ur decision to decide what is halal and wht is haram is based on hadith not Quran...am i right to say that?


when i say i believe in Quran and dat Quran is da only source of guidance...doesnt mean i cant ask an imam..or scholars for guidance...these imam must follow Quran...not someone who just dress like an alim person...and then say u cant do this..its haram..dats haram....when i asked why? they refer me to some hadiths...i say dats Bull...


QUOTE
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If anyone of you performs ablution he should put water in his nose and then blow it out and whoever cleans his private parts with stones should do so with odd numbers. And whoever wakes up from his sleep should wash his hands before putting them in the water for ablution, because nobody knows where his hands were during sleep."



whts da purpose of dat??? odd numbers?

Muawiyah
19-01-2005, 05:59 PM
but the Quraan orders us to follow the prophet, for example:
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 32
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 132
soorat un nisaa ayah 59
soorat ul maaidah ayah 92
soorat ul anfaal ayah 1
soorat ul anfaal ayah 20
soorat ul anfaal ayah 46
soorat un Noor ayah 54


Allah Ta'alaa tells the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to "warn those who appose your order" that they will fall into tribulation or great punishment {soorat un noor ayah 63}


فليحذر الّذين يخالفون عن أمره أن تصيبهم فتنة أو يصيبهم عذاب أليم

Allah Ta'alaa orders the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to tell people "If you love Allah follow me Allah will love you" {soorah Aal `Imraan ayah 31}


قل إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتّبعوني يحببكم الله

Allah Ta'ala says in the Quraan that you will be guided with the guidance of the Sahaabah { Soorat ul Baqarah ayah 137}
and that those who follow the Muhajireen and Ansaar with Ihsaan will be in heaven { Soorat ut Tawbah ayah 100}

Allah Ta'ala says ask the people of Knowledge if you don't know {soorat un nahl ayah 43, soorat ul Anbiyaa ayah 7}

Allah Ta'ala says that those who follow other than the way of the believers will go to hell {soorat un nisaa ayah 115}


whts da purpose of dat??? odd numbers?

if we don't understand the meaning or purpose of something that doesn't make it wrong. As Muslims {those who have surrendered their will to the Will of Allah} we do not need to know the reason behind any order, it is enough that Allah's Messenger Sallallaahu `Alyhi wa sallam has said this, and Allah has ordered us to follow him.

ahsanirfan
19-01-2005, 07:49 PM
Salam o alaikum.

This is how I would go about dealing with this guy.

wht r u confused bout? my view is dat i believe in da Quran and dat it is complete. im having my worries over da hadiths we have now...ppl were sayin Bukhari hadith is da most authentic...but i have found some of the da hadiths contradicts da Quran...contradict each other and it speak bout da "private" life off Prophet Muhammad which i feel is wrong

Three things here:

1) I mentioned in my last to last post in this thread that to know what contradicts the Quran, one needs to know Arabic in its totality.Do you know Arabic? If yes, then how much? Do you know all the rules of Sarf and Nahw and Balagha and what not? If no, then you have no right to criticize.

2) As brother Muawiya mentioned, the Quran asks us to follow the Messenger. So where is your "Follow the Quran only" tactic now?

3) So what if its the private life of the Prophet? Are we not to conduct our private lives according to the Quran too? Combine that with point three above and the result is that we have to follow the Prophet in our private lives too. Since he is the best example for us to follow, the narratives of his "private" life are an example for us. We should conduct ourselves according to them.

.....im not just gonna follow somethin blindly just coz majority is following it...

Well you are following your Mr. Rashad blindly, without even verifying his claims. And besides who is asking you to follow anyone blindly? But at least first go and learn the basics. You don't even know Arabic and have come to criticize the 'ulama who are mountains of knowledge. At least they know Arabic, and hence know what is in the Quran. Do you?

and i always see ppl saying dats haram, this is haram...without even checkin out in da Quran...if hadith say its haram means haram...just coz Quran doesnt mention it...again i feel dat is wrong

Islam is not based on your feelings. The Quran says follow the Prophet. Will you not then follow the Quran, as per your own tactic?

im actually confused over ur view...u said Quran is complete..u also said hadith shouldnt supercede Quran...but then why do u say only fish n locust is halal just coz its mention in Hadith... dint Quran say sea creatures r not forbidden...so ur decision to decide what is halal and wht is haram is based on hadith not Quran...am i right to say that?

I think you are the one who is confused here. Quran is complete? In general terms yes. In specifics, no. (Please refer him to the dialogue I posted above for the fish story.) What's locusts got to do with anything? According to your logic since the Quran doesn't mention "Don't eat poison" even poision would be halaal for you. So what if the Prophet s.a.s. said that locusts were halaal? He is merely specifying that which is halaal, from a more general Quranic perspective.

when i say i believe in Quran and dat Quran is da only source of guidance...doesnt mean i cant ask an imam..or scholars for guidance...these imam must follow Quran

The only problem is that you won't find Imams stupid enough to take your view.

...not someone who just dress like an alim person...

And when the Quran says "Follow the Prophet" it means "Follow the Prophet." And this includes the way he dressed as well.

and then say u cant do this..its haram..dats haram....when i asked why? they refer me to some hadiths...i say dats Bull...

Have some respect for someone's views if they don't agree with you. Do you need to be taught a lesson in Islamic Etiquette now? So why exactly is hadith "bull"? Refer to what I have said above. The blessed ahadith are not "bull".


QUOTE
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If anyone of you performs ablution he should put water in his nose and then blow it out and whoever cleans his private parts with stones should do so with odd numbers. And whoever wakes up from his sleep should wash his hands before putting them in the water for ablution, because nobody knows where his hands were during sleep."

whts da purpose of dat??? odd numbers?

Maybe for you its odd numbers because you aren't serious enough to follow the Quran. Why do you turn a blind eye towards the Quran when the Quran says "Follow the Prophet"? As I recall reading the specific ayahs the word used for "follow" in at least one ayah was "ittiba." Had the word been "istita'at" you could have taken it in a more general manner. The word "ittiba'" on the other hand poses a problem for you. "Ittiba'" means to "follow completely" or "perfect following". Obey the Quran now won't you? Try following the Prophet "completely" without the hadith, and then we'll see.


Hope that helped, akhi.

Ma'as Salam

Julius
19-01-2005, 08:11 PM
The term "hadeeth-rejector" should be replaced with "quran-believers" as we are the only people that actually listen to the Quran. The Quran says to lash adulters, instead you stone them. List goes on and on.

Muawiyah
19-01-2005, 08:21 PM
The term "Hadeeth rejectors" should be replaced by "Quran-Rejectors" because these people do not believe in the Quraan, which orders Muslims to follow the Messenger Sallallaahu `alyhi wa Sallam, his Sahaabah radhi Allaahu Ta'ala `anhum and the Fuqahaa.

Rajm of the one who does adultery:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15119&postcount=24

analyzing
19-01-2005, 08:24 PM
where you at "ahsanirfan" where you at ??

ibn ajiba
19-01-2005, 08:43 PM
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

sidi aamir

wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah.

how does he know the Qur’an is from Allah ta’ala? what is the proof for him? that Allah ta’ala said so in the Book? how does he know Allah ta’ala said so? who were the ones who recorded that Allah ta’ala said so? who were they who originally transmitted to the present day the Book of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala? the Sahaba, radhi’Allahu anhum ’ajmaeen. in fact the very same Sahaba - radhi’Allahu anhum ’ajmaeen - who narrated the very same ahadith he rejects. so on what basis does he accept the Qur’an which they transmitted, yet not the ahadith which they also transmitted? because to accept that Allah ta’ala guaranteed the Qur’an is to emplace trust in those who transmitted to us through successive generations, that He indeed said those Words, azza wa jal. indeed, we only know that these are the words of Allah ta’ala because they told us so, may Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala grant us the reward of doing so too. so do we have a choice in doubting them without doubting the Qur’an, hashalillah?

if he is convinced that the Qur’an comprises of the Words of Allah tabarak wa ta’ala, then it demonstrates his erroneous approach to understanding the Kitab’Allah, since the proof for the primacy of the Sunna - and ergo the hadith - is the Qur’an. obviously that is a point he will be prepared for, and he will twist away the meanings of those ayats pertaining to the Sunna as an asl [source/foundation/basis], just like most of those who follow his line of thinking tend to do. in which case the coming irony is delicious, because as much as pervaizi’s bemoan the hadith as being the opinion of men rather than God, their argument is surely dead in the ground when we wonder how do we reconcile the different interpretations of those ayats which we say are a proof for the Sunna (i.e. hadith), and they say are not? whose view preponderates? how do we decide? because we *will* have to decide, given that they don’t accept our view, and we don’t accept theirs. so *who* will arbitrate upon the meaning? and one step back, who actually came up with those possible meanings in the first place? those divergent comprehensions of the text? men. ah. drat. you got me.

next point…

one cannot cite the words of the Qur’an as proof without implicitly concluding that doing so requires a degree of trust in those who transmitted the Word of Allah ta’ala, may Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala grant us their company in the akhira. for if there is doubt in those who transmitted, it follows that there should be doubt in what they transmitted. and conversely, if there is certainty in what was transmitted, then there cannot be doubt in those that transmitted it. and for their to be certainty in them, would they not have to be of a certain standard of people, of a certain exemplary character, righteous, truthful, trustworthy disposition?

so if their credentials were impeccable enough for him to accept that what they transmitted as the Book of Allah ta’ala is acceptable to him as being the Words of Allah ta’ala, then how does it be that suddenly they are questionable transmitters when it comes to the hadith? it is not as if the Qur’an was compiled first and then hadith began to be narrated, for much of asbab al-nuzool [circumstances of revelation] which is essential to tafsir [exegesis] includes hadith, which means that the transmission of both the Qur’an and hadith was occurring in parallel.

how does he know *for sure* that each and every word that he considers to be part of the Qur’an is definitely from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, when he doubts those same folk - who were the guarantors of the transmission of the text - when it comes to accepting the hadith? how can the same set of people be trustworthy in transmitting the Qur’an, yet doubtful and questionable in their transmission of the hadith?

if one is going to doubt the veracity of the hadith because they were related by men with agendas and prejudices, then realise that those same men transmitted the Book of Allah, azza wa jal. so either be consistent in your argument, or recognise it (your argument) is flawed.

to cite a verse as being from Allah ta’ala is to presuppose that that verse is from Allah ta’ala. one cannot therefore use the thing being proven as proof of itself, for it has yet to be proven!

the existence of the Qur’an cannot ontologically be the proof of the Qur’an being the words of Allah azza wa jal, because in reasoning this is known as begging the question. it is like me saying Sidi Ahsan is not the guilty party because he said so, and i trust him. but how do you know to trust him? ‘because he said he didn’t do it, which means he didn’t.’ what is the proof that he actually said that? ‘the fact that others said he didn’t.’ is that any kind of proof?

no. the true proof of Al-Qur’an Al-Karim is not the existence of manuscripts, because if a Muslim chooses to cite this as their proof, then sure as night follows day, they will eventually come unstuck, because orthographically the Qur’an *as a book/text* is not the same today as it was when first compiled. for a start it contained no tashkil [diacritical marks/notation] originally. which is why if one refers to the ‘Ulema, they would not forward a proof by reference to the written text, but by the oral transmission. it is that orality which takes precedence over what is written, then and now.

and point of fact, is that the true proof for the Qur’an being from Allah ta’ala, is the I’jaz al-Qur’an [Miracle of the Qur’an], which is to do with the arabic language therein. actually, the miracles are many, but the primary one is the arabic. wallahu ta’ala a’lam.

so now, if the rejection of ahadith is because they contradict the Qur’an, then know that this is incorrect reasoning. take the example given of Imam Al-A’zam, radhi’Allahu ’anh and the seafood. i shall demonstrate the naivete of this by way of analogy:

let us say it is daytime and someone asks me if they can park in a particular place. i tell them it is not allowed. then later, after sunset, they see that someone is parked there. they come to me in a furore and exclaim that someone is parked there! and i tell them it’s fine. so they lambast me for contradicting what i told them. but i explain that when they originally asked me it was daytime, and it is not allowed to park there during the day, whereas it is okay during the night.

ah, a penny drops in their minds. they didn’t realise.

context. context is sometimes king. the question was asked in a certain context in which the answer was framed. had it been asked at night the answer would have been different. i cannot be blamed for not telling the questioner that it was okay to park there at night, for that was not the question. the question was just whether it was okay to park there, and it was asked at a point in time when it was not. i was not asked if if it was never allowed to park there. rather, they *assumed* from my answer that it was not allowed to park there at all, ever. but that’s not what i said. i just said they couldn’t park there, and i said it in the present tense.

likewise, *many* times in the Book of Allah ta’ala you will find ’umur [commands] which seem general, yet they will have exception. you will find ’umur which seem absolute, yet they will have restriction. you will find ’umur which will seem vague, which will have clarification. commands which seem ambiguous that will have detail. and commands that will seem complete, yet they will have specification. and just as the context was not immediately apparent in my example, it is not always obvious in the Book of Allah ta’ala. you have to sometimes go beyond that which is apparent, obvious and literal (this is a feature of language). and oftentimes you will find this additional aspect in the Sunna of our Beloved Rasul, alayhis salatu wassalam.

none of this is considered contradiction, and none of it is a cause for rejection of the Sunna/hadith, wal iyadhubillah. a superb source for better clarifying all this is the stunning two part article by the late Professor of Usul al-Fiqh at the Islamic Research Institute in Islamabad, Ahmad Hasan, may Allah ta’ala grant him abundance in the hereafter. this storming article can be found in the institute’s journal, entitled Islamic Studies, and was published around 2-3 years ago. it is around 100 pages in length, and to date i have seen nothing comparable in english. it is a brilliant and detailed piece of work, and covers - with examples - all the above instances, complete with full referencing and sourcing of the ahadith cited, and where appropriate the ikhtilaf of the madhahib. required reading. not the easiest to get hold of though unfortunately.

in fact all the examples your pervaizi friend has given fall into one of the above categories. it is just that right now his doubt is driven by what he doesn’t know rather than by what he does. ignorance is his driver. and when ignorance reigns supreme, yet masquerades as knowledge, one becomes afflicted by delusion.

to answer your other question, yes, there are examples of actions which have a basis in the Sunna but not directly in the Qur’an – an example of which eludes me presently, sorry – but given that the Sunna itself is grounded in the Qur’an then this explains that phenomena.

i have a question for him: the hadith he rejects, does he consider them hadith? meaning, does he accept they were from the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wassalam? if not, there is less of a problem, because if they are not hadith then rejecting them has less of a consequence. if they are, then on what basis is he rejecting them? content, or transmission? because there is a difference between rejecting *what* has been said, and *the fact that it was actually said*. someone can say something which is objectionable, and one might have cause to wonder whether they really said it if they are known as a person of uprightness. but that cause is not a proof that they didn’t say it. the real proof would necessitate investigating the sanad [chain of transmission] linking the one who originally is alleged to have made the remark, all the way through to the one who related that that was what they said, to you. no small task when you are talking about a time period over a thousand years.

it would seem your friend is only going by content, which is a bit feeble, truth be told. because as you have related his contentions - assuming you’ve not done any injustice to the quality of his argument - they are easy to overcome. however, the more serious matter, which one of the more learned brothers has commented upon, is the issue of the qalb [heart]. it is the experience of this unlearned one that the quraymeen/khalifites/pervaizis [hadith rejectors] tend to be extremely obstinate, and it is hard to penetrate their hearts. not due to the futility of the rebuttal, but because of the stubbornness that has taken hold of them. as they have premade their minds up, reopening them proves not an easy task, and i find that eventually the debate becomes personal, which is what you don’t want.

my advice would be to refrain from such a debate and desist now that you have started. as Khalifa ’Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz, radhi’Allahu ’anh, is reported to have said, “Never give your ear to a deviant, for you never know what may find fixity in you.” [aw qama qal]

that statement is not directed to your friend, but as general counsel.

the danger you face is that this group comes well-equipped to the battle, and may overwhelm you with their “proofs/evidences”, and each time you refute one example, another one will be presented. which risks going on endlessly, because such examples are many, since ta’arud al-adilla [mutual contradiction of proof texts] is common within the Qur’an and Sunna. but it is not a negative phenomenon, unlike how these groups have portrayed it.

the way to handle this individual is not by refuting every example he brings, but by taking the matter to its root, establishing your common basis, and building from there. because refuting his every example of a supposed contradiction and reason to reject the hadith will achieve only refutation, only destruction (of his points). when what is actually required is not destruction of them, but deconstruction of them, reconstruction of his basis, without the messy heterodox aspects to it, and then construction of the sound orthodox traditional fahm [understanding].

and this is not the medium for that. this is why Imam al-Ghazali, radhi’Allahu ’anh is reported to have said, “Leave knowledge to the Scholars and do what you are fit to do” [aw qama qal]

personally, when i find i am out of my depth - a proof for me of which would be that i need to request the help of others due to my lack of knowledge - then i take that as a sign that this is not something i should be involved in. for that is the more precautionary way, and is an attempt at wara’ [vigilance of the self]. only a foolish soldier ventures onto the battlefield before putting his armour on.

bear with me if my temperament seemed a little grumpy, i assure you it’s only on the screen, not as i wrote. may Allah ta’ala forgive any unintended harshness, and more importantly, any mistakes. this was written off the cuff, so i apologise if it is a little raw in exposition.

i apologise beforehand, due to infrequent access to the web/email, i may not be able to reply to any responses any time soon.

ma’assalam

ibn ajiba

ahsanirfan
20-01-2005, 12:21 AM
where you at "ahsanirfan" where you at ??

lol... i went to sleep.. got up now.....

well... had he read wht i had to say he wudnt have said that.... let's see him bring his daleel

that line is just a polemic....a hollow statement...
:$

and akhi ibn ajiba... that's a thoughful way of explaining it....

i hadnt realized the part about where you talk about diacritical marks.. that had slipped my mind.... :jazak: for reminding

and u r right about the qalb..... :jazak: once again for your thoughts

i think ibn ajiba's post is sorta "final".. let's get to the "heart" of the matter instead of this refuting business.... refutation really never got anyone anywhere.....

ma'as salam

ahsanirfan
20-01-2005, 04:38 AM
Here is an article by Khalid Baig on the subject:

A Look at Hadith Rejectors' Claims
by Khalid Baig
Taken from his book, "First Things First"

"Anyone who disobey Allah and His Messenger has wandered off into manifest error." Suratul Ahzaab 33:36

"He who disobeys Allah and His Messenger has already acheived a splendid triumph." Suratul Ahzaab 33:71

For the past fourteen centuries Quran and Sunnah have been the twin undisputed sources of Guidance for Muslims. In every generation, Muslims devoted the best of their minds and talents to their study. They learnt both the words and meanings of the Quran through the Prophet s.a.s and made an unprecedented effort in preserving them for the next generation. The result: the development of the marvellous - and unparalleled - science of Hadith, one of the brightest aspects of Muslim history.

What does it mean to believe in a Prophet except to pledge to follow him? And so the teachings of the Prophet s.a.s have always guided this Ummah. Nobody, in his right mind, could or did question this practice. Then something happened. During the colonial period, when most of the Muslim world came under the subjugation of the West, some "scholars" arose in places like Egypt (Taha Hussein), India (Abdullah Chakralwi and Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz) and Turkey (Zia Gokalp), who began questioning the authenticity and relevance of Hadith. It was not that some genius had found flaws in the Hadith study that had eluded the entire Ummah for thirteen centuries. It was simply that the pressures from the dominant Western civilization to conform were to strong for them to withstand. They buckled. Prophetic teachings and life examples - Hadith - was the obstacle in this process and so it became the target.

Another factor helped them. Today most Muslims, including the vast majority of the Western educated Muslims, have meager knowledge of Hadith, having spent no time in studying even the fundamentals of this vast subject. How many know the difference between sahih and hassan, or between maudu and daif? The certification process used in hadith transmission? Names of any hadith book produced in the first century Hijrah, or the number of such books? A majority would probably not be able to name even the six principle Hadith books (Sihah Sittah) or know anything about the history of their compilation. Obviously such atmosphere provides a fertile ground for sowing suspicions and doubts.

They sometimes call themselves Ahle Quran or Quranists. This is misleading. For their distinction is not in affirming the Quran, but in rejecting the Hadith. The ideas of munkareen-e-hadith evolve into three mutually contradictory strains. The first holds that the job of the Prophet s.a.s was only to deliver the Quran. We are to follow only the Quran and nothing else, as were the companions. Further, Hadith is not needed to understand the Quran, which is sufficient for providing guidance. The second group holds that the Companions were required to follow the Prophet s.a.s but we are not. The third holds that, in theory, we also have to follow Hadith but we did not receive Hadith through authentic sources and therefore we have to reject all Hadith collections!

Internal contrdictions are a hallmark of fals ideologies. How can anyone hold the first position yet profess belief in the Quran while it says:

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to mankind what was sent down to them, and so that they may give thought." Suratan Nahl 16:44

And this:

"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, who rehearses unto them the Signs of Allah, purifies them, instructs them in Scripture, and teaches them Wisdom, whereas previously they had been in plain error." Surah Al-e-Imran 3:164

How can anyone hold the second position (limiting the Prophethood to 23 years) yet profess belief in the Quran, while it says:

"We did not send you except as Mercy for everybody in the universe." Suratul Anbiya 21:107

And,

"And We have not sent you (O Mohammad) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind." Suratus Saba 34:28

The third position seems to have avoided obvious pitfalls, yet in reality it is no different. It agrees that we need Hadith, but then goes on to claim that Allah did not provide what we need for our guidance.

The following are some of the statements normally made by Hadith rejectors.

The Reliability of Sources

"We accept Allah's Word that He has protected the Quran from corruption, but why should we accept the words of the Hadith collectors? Are they as infallible as Allah s.w.t?"

This makes you wonder whether the Hadith rejectors realize how we received the Quran. For we have received both the Quran and the Hadith through exactly the same channels. The same people transmitted this as the Word of Allah s.w.t and that as the word of the Prophet s.a.s. Even the verse claiming that the Quran will be protected came to us through the same people. Through what logic can anyone declare that the channels are reliable for the Quran and unreliable for Hadith? On the contrary the Quranic promise of protection must apply to Hadith as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the meanings of the Quran.

Were Ahadith Written Down For The First Time In The Third Century Of The Hijra?

The very existence of a huge library of Hadith, the only one of its kind among the religous of the world, assures us that our expectation that Hadith - the embodiment of Prophetic explanation of the Quran - must have been protectedis not in vain. To dismiss all that as later day fabrication requires lots of guts - and equal parts ignorance.

Were ahadith written down for the first time in the third century of Hijra? Not at all. Actually hadith recording and collection started at the time of the Prophet s.a.s.

Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al 'As r.a sought and was given the permission to write everything he heard from the Prophet s.a.s:

Sayyidina Abdullah ibn Amr s.a.s reports: "I used to write everything I heard from the Messenger s.a.s as I wanted to preserve it. The Quraish forbade me, saying: 'Do you write everything that you hear [from him] and the Messenger is a human being who sometimes speaks in anger and joy?' [i.e. he may say something under the influence of emotions that may not be worth writing.] So I stopped. Then I mentioned this to the Messenger s.a.s. He pointed with his fingers to his mouth and said: "Write! By the One in Whose Hands is my life! Nothing proceeds from here except the truth." - Abu Dawood, 3161

He produced Sahifa Sadiqa, which contained more than six thousand ahadith. Anas ibn Malik r.a, who pent ten years in Prophet's household, not only recorded the ahadith but also presented them to the Prophet s.a.s and got corrections. Abu Hurairah r.a. had many volumes of his collections and even produced smaller compilations for his students. Prominent Hadith scholar Dr. Mustafa Azami has shown in his doctoral thesis that in the first century of Hijra many hundred booklets of hadith were in circulation. By the end of the second century, "by the most conservative estimates there were many thousands."

Off course most of these books do not exist today. They were simply absorbed into the encyclopaedic collections that emerged in the third century. One manuscript from the first century was discovered in this century and published by Dr. Hamidullah. It is Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbah, who was a disciple of Abu Hurairah r.a. It contains 138 ahadith. Muhaditheen knew that the ahadith of this Sahifa had been absorbed into Musnad Ahmed and Muslim collections., which have been published continuousaly since their third century debut. After the discovery of the original manuscript it was naturally compared with the ahadith in Muslim and Musnad Ahmed that were thought to have come from that Sahifa. And what did they find? There was not an iota of difference between the two. Similarly Mussanaf of Abd Al Razzaq is extant and has been published. As has been Mu'ammar ibn Rashid's al-Jami. The recent appearance of these original manuscripts should bring the most skeptical into the fold of believers.

Salat And Hadith Rejectors

"The Messenger s.a.s may have elaborated on items like mode of salat. Such hadith is probably from the Messenger s.a.s and should be obeyed. But we cannot believe the rest of the ahadith."

The Hadith rejecters have a partcularly difficult time explaining how to offer salat if we are to throw away the Hadith.. So they offer concessions like the one quoted above. But we don't need a favor for Hadith about salat (coming from the same books and the same narrators who are declared as unreliable). We need an answer to this question.: If the Quran is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salat, although it repeatdly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that.

Some Hadith rejectors have realized the difficulty of their position on Salat. But they have made a claim that is even more ludicrous, namely that the Quran gives details on how to offer salat. "A Careful reading of the Quran reveals that we are to get our salat from the Masjid al Haram [the continuous practice at Makkah since the time of Abraham]," says one proponent, "specifically the place of Abraham (Muqam-e-Ibrahim)." Let us leave aside all those practical questions about such a fluid answer. Whose salat? When? Are we to follow anyone and everyone we find praying at Maqam-e-Ibrahim. How are those offering salat there to determine the proper way of offering it? How do you resolve their differences? In his enthusiasm in proposing this innovative solution, this proponent even forgot that the Quran says the following about the salat of mushrikeen (polytheists) at the Masjid al Haram:

"Their prayer at the House of Allah is nothing but whistling and clapping. (its only answer can be) "Taste chastisement because you blasphemed." Suratul Anfal 8:35

The Sahih And The Gospels

"Hadith is the same as the Gospels of Christianity. Indeed the time span between the death of the Messenger and the compilation of the Sahihs was almost the same as that between the departure of Jesus a.s and the compilation of the Bible. How can Muslims accept one and reject the other?"

Regarding the comparision of the Sahih with the Gospels, let's listen to Dr. Hamidullah. "The compilation of the Gospels, their preservation and transmission from one generation to the other, has not taken place in the way which governed the books of hadith... We do not know who wrote them, who translated them, and who transmitted them. How were they transferred from the original Aramaic to Greek? Did the scribes make arrangements for a faihtful reproduction of the original? The four Gospels are mentioned, for the first time, three hundred years after Christ. Should we rely on such an unauthentic book in preference to that of Bukhari who prefaces every statement of two lines with three to nine references?"



"Allah s.w.t has protected only the Quran - not Islam - from correuption."

To say that Allah s.w.t. promised to protect only the Quran but not Islam is being as ridiculous as one can get. Let's ignore the obvious question regarding the point of this Heavenly act. The question is if Islam has been corrupted and its true teachings have been lost, how can anyone claim to be its follower? Moreover the quran says:

"Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he will among the losers." Surah al-eImran 3:85

How are we to follow the religion acceptable to Allah s.w.t if it was not to be protected?

[B] The Commnts Of Dr. Maurice Bucaille

"Dr. Maurice bucaille finds that Sahih bukhari is as unscientific as the bible"

Dr. Maurice Bucaille earned the admiration of many Muslims because of hisstudy of some scientific phenomena mentioned in the Quran and his testimony based on that study the Quran must be the book of Allah. However he is not a Hadith scholar and it is unfair to drag him into this discussion. His account of history of hadith compilation contains many errors, for example the claim that the first gathering of hadith was performed roughly forty years after Hijra or that no instructions were given regarding hadith collection. He questions about a dozen or so entries in Bukhari that he thinks deal with scientific matters. Even if that criticism were valid, would it be sufficient ground to throw away the 9082 toital entires (2602 unique ahadith) in Bukhari? He himself does not think so for he writes. "The truth of hadith from a religious point of view, is beyond question."

The Hadith Regarding The Sun

But even his criticism is of questionable value. Consider the hadith about the sun: "At sunset the sun protrates itself underneath the Throne and takes permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then a time will come when it be about to prostrate itself...it will seek permission to go on its course... it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the West." His criticism: This implies a notion of a course the sun runs in relation to the earth." Bucaille fails to understand the real message of this hadith. It was not meant to teach astronomy. It's clear message is that the sun is the slave of Allah, moving always through His Will. The Hadith brings out that message very powerfully so that even the most illiterate bedouin can understand it fully.

Even today astronomers, when calculating the time of sunrise and sunset, use a mathematical model in which the sun revolves around the earth. If that is acceptable for scientific work as it makes calculations easier, why is it questionable when it makes communication easier?

Also there are other ahadith which clearly demonstrate a scientific fact beyond the knowledge of the times but Bucaille has failed to take notice. For example the hadith about solar eclipse:

"The sun and moon are two signs from the Signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone's death or on account of anyone's birth, but Allah sends them to strike fear in hearts of His servants." Bukhari 990

The eclipse had coincided with the death of the Prophet's s.a.s son. A false prophet would have tried to exploit the occasion. A fabricated hadith would require scientific knowledge on part of the fabricator that did not exist then.

To reject the Hadith is to reject the Quran for all practical purposes. The idea was concocted as a means of undermining the Quran while on the surface affirming faith in it. It is time those who were misled by it out ignorance threw away this of our colonial past into the trash bin of history where it belongs.

taarar
20-01-2005, 06:08 AM
The term "hadeeth-rejector" should be replaced with "quran-believers" as we are the only people that actually listen to the Quran. The Quran says to lash adulters, instead you stone them. List goes on and on.

Allah Ta'la sent Ambiya (A.S.) to teach their ummats. The ummat did not recieve a translated book, from which they depicted their rulings. In the same way this tradition goes on from Rasulullah SAW to Sahaba (ra) to Tabaeen (RA) to Taba Tabaeen (RA) to Taba Taba Tabaeen (RA) and goes on and on. Learn the Qur'an and the Ahaadeeth in madrasa or from a trusted 'AALIM and you will understand yourself all the so-called "CONTRADICTIONS". (or are you too arrogant to do that?)

May be the "hadeeth-rejectors" are too demolished in their nafs that they can not follow the hadeeth.

It is very simple, if you believe that the ahadeeth are not authentic then this claim itself is an attack on The Holy Qur'an and if you are attacking the Holy Qur'an (nauzubillah!) then you are attacking its creator Allah Ta'la(nauzubillah!). And thus you are trying to prove that Allah Ta'la did not send a complete deen to us (nauzubillah!).

Well, this seems a great escape for the people who are enslaved by their nafs. They can not pray , etc. because the way of prayer is extracted from Ahaadeeth etc etc etc. But my brother, beware. Beware of the aakhirat. This philthy modern culture that you adopt which cause you to become a Qur'aanist, the culture which you call "muhazzib" is in reality "mu'azzib". Trust me this culture that you adopt is hollow (personal experience). It is surrounded only by desires, philthy desires and not 1% is for gaining the Happiness and Pleasure of Allah Ta'la. Follow the Sunnat of Rasulullah SAW, and you will see the beauty of the teachings of Rasulullah SAW yourself. Spend a few days in the company of a Wali who reminds you of ALLAH TA'LA! who reminds you of the AAKHIRA! And my brother you will see the beauty of True Islaam yourself!

A serious advice is to renew your faith. It will be a great idea to recite the kalima again.

JazakAllah

analyzing
20-01-2005, 09:17 AM
that line is just a polemic....a hollow statement...



ohhhh pleaseee....

ahsanirfan
20-01-2005, 12:34 PM
ohhhh pleaseee....

lol... gimme a break.... ;)

Aamir
20-01-2005, 12:36 PM
Jazakallah brothers all your contributions are grear. may Allah Allmighty reward you

could some oneexplain this..here is what the guy said...

Quran did say 100 lashes for ppl who commit adultery

why we have ppl who claimed..stoning to death...its not in da Quran but it is in hadith...When it comes to passing Law QURAN is VERY CLEAR..

now whts ur answer to this

ahsanirfan
20-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Jazakallah brothers all your contributions are grear. may Allah Allmighty reward you

could some oneexplain this..here is what the guy said...

Quran did say 100 lashes for ppl who commit adultery

why we have ppl who claimed..stoning to death...its not in da Quran but it is in hadith...When it comes to passing Law QURAN is VERY CLEAR..

now whts ur answer to this

very clear indeed :rolleyes: .... ask him to learn some arabic first... he has NO right absolutely to criticize the ahadith unless he can compare them in arabic.. once he has mastered all twelve sciences of arabic.. i'd like him to explain this "contradiction" to me.... until then he will have to suffice with what the 'ulama say....or else risk kufr.... "it's my way.. it's my may.. my way or the highway..."

ma'as salam

ahsanirfan
20-01-2005, 02:06 PM
Okay here is what i dug up

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/20_29/24_1-3.gif

Now see the second ayah, the words there are azzaniyatu and azzani.

azzaniyatu - refers to the female one who commits the act
azzani - refers to he male who comits the act

In both words there is no indication whatsoever whether the committer of the act is married or unmarried.

When translating these words in english, one comes across a big problem. Which word to use? Fornicator? Or Adulterer? Let's see the meanings of the words "fornication" and "adultery"

Fornication -
1 - human sexual intercourse other than between a man and his wife; sexual intercourse between a spouse and an unmarried person; sexual intercourse between unmarried people
2 - sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person accomplished with consent and not deemed adultery

Adultery -
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband

source - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 1974 Edition

Synopsis of these two words:

Fornicator is either a general usage word or specific to the "unmarried" couple. Hence it is a word which is more appropriate, though not quite, for the translation of the words azzaniyatu and azzani.

Adulterer is a specific classification of what type of fornicator i.e. a married fornicator.

Now the ayah above is very vague. It does not specify which type of fornicator to punish with hundred lashes. Also note that the words azzaniyatu and azzani cannot necessarily be taken in a "general" sense. The more appropriate way to look at them is in an unspecified sense. Hence the ayah begs the question: What kind of fornicator to lash?

Hadith rejectors are going to be at a loss, once again, by rejecting ahadith. Since the ayah begs a question, and the question can only answered through hadith, hadith rejectors will have a hard time deciding who to lash and who not to. They could leave it upto their intellects to decide, but we will suffice with what the Rasul Allah s.a.s has to say about it:

Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported: Allah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) stood up and said: By Him besides Whom there is none worthy of worship (in truth) but He, the blood of a muslim who bears the testimony that there is none worthy of worship (in truth) but Allah, and I am His Messenger, may be lawfully shed only in case of three persons: the one who abandons Islam, and deserts the community [Ahmad, one of the narrators, is doubtful whether the Prophet (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) used the word li'l-jama'ah or al-jama'ah), and the married adulterer, and life for life.

Notice the words married adulterer. I could not find the Arabic of this hadith now. When I do I shall post it here.

Now it should be crystal clear whether there is any "contradiction" in this matter or not. However, there is further that could be added to this. Visit the following link (http://www.jamiat.org.za/aj/local/stoning.html).

It adds to what I have said.

Ma'as Salam

Aamir
20-01-2005, 05:04 PM
Mashallah brother that was Heavy..Allah allmighty keep you happy in both Worlds Ameen

Aamir
22-01-2005, 10:31 PM
Akhi...this guy asked me a really confusing question one that i didnt answer cos frankly i didnt know the answer..he said

"WHAT IS MORE DEARER TO ALLAH, THE QURAN OR THE PROPHET"

I said i would get back to him....any guidance would be appreciated..Jazakallah

Julius
23-01-2005, 04:04 AM
Okay here is what i dug up

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/20_29/24_1-3.gif

Now see the second ayah, the words there are azzaniyatu and azzani.

azzaniyatu - refers to the female one who commits the act
azzani - refers to he male who comits the act

In both words there is no indication whatsoever whether the committer of the act is married or unmarried.

When translating these words in english, one comes across a big problem. Which word to use? Fornicator? Or Adulterer? Let's see the meanings of the words "fornication" and "adultery"

Fornication -
1 - human sexual intercourse other than between a man and his wife; sexual intercourse between a spouse and an unmarried person; sexual intercourse between unmarried people
2 - sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person accomplished with consent and not deemed adultery

Adultery -
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband

source - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 1974 Edition

Synopsis of these two words:

Fornicator is either a general usage word or specific to the "unmarried" couple. Hence it is a word which is more appropriate, though not quite, for the translation of the words azzaniyatu and azzani.

Adulterer is a specific classification of what type of fornicator i.e. a married fornicator.

Now the ayah above is very vague. It does not specify which type of fornicator to punish with hundred lashes. Also note that the words azzaniyatu and azzani cannot necessarily be taken in a "general" sense. The more appropriate way to look at them is in an unspecified sense. Hence the ayah begs the question: What kind of fornicator to lash?

Hadith rejectors are going to be at a loss, once again, by rejecting ahadith. Since the ayah begs a question, and the question can only answered through hadith, hadith rejectors will have a hard time deciding who to lash and who not to. They could leave it upto their intellects to decide, but we will suffice with what the Rasul Allah s.a.s has to say about it:

Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported: Allah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) stood up and said: By Him besides Whom there is none worthy of worship (in truth) but He, the blood of a muslim who bears the testimony that there is none worthy of worship (in truth) but Allah, and I am His Messenger, may be lawfully shed only in case of three persons: the one who abandons Islam, and deserts the community [Ahmad, one of the narrators, is doubtful whether the Prophet (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) used the word li'l-jama'ah or al-jama'ah), and the married adulterer, and life for life.

Notice the words married adulterer. I could not find the Arabic of this hadith now. When I do I shall post it here.

Now it should be crystal clear whether there is any "contradiction" in this matter or not. However, there is further that could be added to this. Visit the following link (http://www.jamiat.org.za/aj/local/stoning.html).

It adds to what I have said.

Ma'as Salam

Laughable to say the least. The arabic word zina means both fornication and adultery. Your attempt to use the English dictionary in your arguement while you try to tell me to learn arabic is not even worth your time or my time in explaining. Heres what the Quran says.

(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. [24:2]

The translators made is very clear in regard to the translation of zina from a trusted source (Shakir). And please explain to me how 24:3 can be carried out if you kill the adulter? The Quran is extremely clear in the regard to zina, but you turn your heads and pay no heed. May Allah grant you what is deserved by such people.

Ansari
23-01-2005, 01:10 PM
Akhi...this guy asked me a really confusing question one that i didnt answer cos frankly i didnt know the answer..he said

"WHAT IS MORE DEARER TO ALLAH, THE QURAN OR THE PROPHET"

I said i would get back to him....any guidance would be appreciated..Jazakallah

The question itself is wrong.

monotheist
24-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Peace to all brother ans sisters, hadith believers and hadith rejectors. I myself used to be a sunni, but after having read the quran, I have found no justification whatsoever for hadith books. If anybody can find even a single verse from the Quran that justifies hadith books I will happily become a sunni again. I believe that I am right, and you believe that you are right, but we both believe that the Quran is the default source of guidance, so please, I would much appreciate it if you could prove me wrong, as long as I am "proven" wrong using verses from the Quran. I ask for your help.

Peace everybody.

Mossy
24-02-2005, 10:35 AM
Nice comments but.. What constitutes a proof to you would not be the same as something that constituted a proof to someone who accepted hadith.

Why?

Let's take the Qu'ranic example.

A whole load of arabic, which we can analyze linguistically.

None of us are fluent de facto in 6th century formal arabic, so we need to make some assumptions re: the context of the verses and the meanings appropriate to them (given a word can have several meanings).

Where do we obtain contextual clarification of these verses to provide understanding of both the circumstance and broader picture? Tafsir? Based on hadith. Comments of scholars fluent in arabic? Based on hadith.

Therein lies a problem - just as one may refer to Hans Wehr to clarify the meaning of a word, one needs to have something to clarify the circumstance of revelation/specification of the contextual meaning of an ayat (ie do we smite the fingertips of disbelievers as a general case? Hi disbeliever, *smite*).

Looking back at this thread, br ibn ajiba has covered this fact in post 14th, more eloquently than I could ever manage.. Have a read and decide on a common basis from which we can work - Qu'ran without context?

monotheist
24-02-2005, 12:37 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters.

"A whole load of arabic, which we can analyze linguistically."

Its a book. We read the book, put the words together and realise what each sentence means. I am very uncomfortable when somebody tells me that its is this complex thing which we need external knowledge to decode it. God says repetitively that The Quran is easy to learn, and I want to believe him.

"None of us are fluent de facto in 6th century formal arabic, so we need to make some assumptions re: the context of the verses and the meanings appropriate to them (given a word can have several meanings)."

Here it appears that you are saying to me that the Quran is exclusive to arabic speaking people at the time it was revealed, and that today it is not accessible to us all unless we start looking at other books. The fact is, ancient arabic is easy to learn, as I am doing currently, using emuslim.com, a lot easier than English as a new language, and Lexicons/dictionaries can easily be used to find out what a word means. In the event that there is an issue as to what word is the correct definitin, we look at that word in other parts of the Quran, and we thus see clearly what thast word means, as applied throughout the whole book.

"Where do we obtain contextual clarification of these verses to provide understanding of both the circumstance and broader picture? Tafsir? Based on hadith. Comments of scholars fluent in arabic? Based on hadith."

The Quran says it is fuly detailed and complete i.e as a book of laws it contains everything we need for our salvation, and it contains all neccessary details of circumstance. 'Tafsir', 'comments of scholars fluent in arabic' are not part of God's message to us. The God says that he will explain it to the believers himself, and the final prophet is only to deliver the mesage (7:32, 13:40, 16:35, 16:82 24:54 29:18 36:17 42:48, 64:12, 75:18).

"Therein lies a problem - just as one may refer to Hans Wehr to clarify the meaning of a word, one needs to have something to clarify the circumstance of revelation/specification of the contextual meaning of an ayat (ie do we smite the fingertips of disbelievers as a general case? Hi disbeliever, *smite*)."

Please brother, I am not a disbeliever, and I never want to be, I believe in the one and Only God, and his message to us. The reason I have got on this forum is to seek the truth. If you think I am a disbeliever, so be it, but I would make a reqwuest that you help me see the truth. Please, don't see me as somebody who has been misled and left Islam, rather I am somebody who . Anyway, taking your assumption that the God does need humans to explain what he says, what are we going to use to explain the hadith books, which contain many contradictions, which need constant sifting through to find the 'sahih' hadiths.

I search for the truth. If at any point in the discussion I see that my position is wrong, I will declare on this forum that I was indeed wrong, and that hadioth books are justified by the Quran. Please, if it is indeed possible, get me to see hadith books justified by the Quran. All criticisms are welcome.

Peace.
I encourage healthy debate. Please don't disappoint me.

Mossy
24-02-2005, 01:05 PM
The disbeliever comment was not directed at you but in reference to some individuals personal exegesis of Qu'ran 8:12:


Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." (Yusufali interpretation)

My apologies if any offense was caused by the misunderstanding, I was trying to give an example of incorrect generality of interpretation.

In the absence of tafsir and with lexicons only, what would conclusion do you draw from this particular ayat for example?

I personally think the Qu'ran is like Go. Easy to get a basic handle on, but something that has depths that you can continuously find, that would take more than a lifetime to master..

Ansari
24-02-2005, 03:35 PM
The Quran says it is fuly detailed and complete i.e as a book of laws it contains everything we need for our salvation, and it contains all neccessary details of circumstance. 'Tafsir', 'comments of scholars fluent in arabic' are not part of God's message to us.
Please tell me what are you doing here then? Arent you explaining (i.e. tafsir) the quran? Arent you and your mates doing the exact same thing? And we arent even talking about the numerious fundamental differences amongst the khalifites. One who denies prayer, one who prays 3 times, one who says ramadan consists of 10 days, alcohol is halal or 'makruh' and i could go further. The same reasoning can thus be applied to you.


In the event that there is an issue as to what word is the correct definitin, we look at that word in other parts of the Quran, and we thus see clearly what thast word means, as applied throughout the whole book.
Are dictionairys a part of the quran? How do you know that this is the correct definition of a certain word in the quran? How do you know that the meaning of the arabic words have not been changed and altered through the century's? You can read the arabic text but you cant possibly know what it means, unless you look up another source which may be corrupt.

monotheist
24-02-2005, 06:32 PM
Peace be to all brothers and sisters

(In response to Mossy)
Its OK brother Mossy, one should never take offence at what their brother in Islam says to them, whatever you said was probably with the intention of guiding me towards what you believe is right anyway. I thank and respect you for that. We are all on this forum to discuss something. So am I, so are you. I thank you greatly for discussing this issue with me; it is of great help in strengthening our faith in the one and only God, with acceptance of hadith or without.

With regards to 8:12, you have suggested that this verse cannot be translated without ‘tafsir’, and you asked how this could be done with lexicons only. I am glad you have asked me a question like this because it is one of the things which used to draw me towards accepting hadith books. However, as I will now demonstrate (God willing), the meaning of this verse can easily and clearly be derived using nothing other than the Quran itself, using translations for non-Arab brothers and sisters. Perhaps what I wouldn’t agree with is that you have quoted Yusuf Ali’s translation as an interpretation. It is not an interpretation, it is (As it should be) the verse itself made available in English, a translation. I will now use English translations of the Quran, without even using lexicons or dictionaries to show the meaning of this verse in English. Please follow the logical progression below to appreciate what the verse means.

1. First port of call – seek help from the Author of this magnificent book. 20:114 says clearly that if you don’t understand the meaning of a word, then seek his help, by saying "O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge." (Robbi zidni ilmaa). This is the first and most important step, without God’s help nothing is possible.

2. Context – Look at the context of the verse. Using Yusuf Ali’s Translation…

__________________________________________________ _______________________

Chapter 8

9 - Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

10 - Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

11- Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.

12 - Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

13 - This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

14 - (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

15 - ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

It is clear that God is telling us about how he assists us believers and punishes the disbelievers.

3. Who is being addressed? – This can include jinns, angels, messengers, as well as human believers and human disbelievers.

It is clear from the first bit of the translation (Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message) :…) that God is about to tell us what he said to the angels.

4. Look at each bit of the verse independently –

God said the following to the angels:

“I am with you” – God is with the angels

“give firmness to the Believers” – God orders the angels support the believers

“I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers” – God tells the angels that he will make the unbelievers fear him.

“smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them” – God is telling the angels to physically punish the disbelievers.

Because of Yusuf Ali’s translation, which includes inappropriately placed colons, it appears that we as readers of the Quran are to go around cutting people’s heads and finger tips off. This obviously is not correct for the following 2 reasons: a) God tells us repetitively in his message to mankind that we are not to turn to physical harm except in self defence, as in 2:190. b) It is clear that God is in this verse telling the reader what he told the angels, so they are the ones to carry out the punishments. Besides, in this verse God is clearly narrating to the human reader what he told the angels. If he was telling us to go around savagely punishing the disbelievers, then he would have addressed us directly, as he does in 8:15 “ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them”. This is what we are supposed to do, never to trust them, not to go out and punish them; we have no right to do that.

Now it could be argued that we don’t see many disbelievers having their heads and fingertips chopped off. This is because the angels don’t do that to them in this world. It is clear from the bit before this which states that “I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers” God is talking about what he will do (future tense) and since the bit “smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them” comes after that, it is clear that the angels will be doing this in the future, namely in the hereafter when the disbelievers will be punished in hell.

I have with Gods permission and help shown a clear and coherent understanding of the verse you said would need hadith to interpret it. I have not used any tafsir or hadeeths whatsoever in showing you this. In fact, I have not even needed a lexicon or Arabic dictionary to do this. And the most important thing is that I am merely a young non-Arab.

You suggested that the Quran is something “that would take more than a lifetime to master…” by implying that we need hadeeth based tafsir to understand this verse. It has taken me no more than an hour to do this, and I have used nothing other than English literal translations because I am a non-Arab and most certainly no ‘Alim/Mullah’ or ‘Scholar’, I am just your average believing youngster with a will to seek the truth. After having written this post I am confident that the God needs no explanation of his words using hadeeth books, because in the Quran Gods says without even a slight bit of ambiguity:
__________________________________________________ _______________________

7:32

YUSUF ALI : Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.

PICKTHALL : Say: Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say: Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge.

SHAKIR : Say: Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say: These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

God personally explains his revelation to the believers, whether that be is done through inspiration directly, (e.g. through showing someone the meaning by creating an appropriate event in life, or mental inspiration), or even indirectly, (e.g. getting someone to hear people talking about the verse, while passing by them). Praise is to God almighty that created authored his final message to mankind and explains it in detail to those who know of him. I don’t find it necessary to hear a hadeeth based ‘interpretation’ of this verse although I would appreciate hearing your response to what I have just posted. Please continue this discussion with me. No matter what the outcome of this discussion is, if God wills he will reward the both of us for seeking the truth.

May peace come to all brothers and sisters,

Monotheist.

monotheist
24-02-2005, 07:15 PM
Peace brother Pako

I appreciate your help, and I understand your concerns regarding ‘Khalifites’ as you put it. Although you yourself could just as easily be called a ‘Hanafite’, but I wish not to do that, because I know labelling as such is not righteous. I understand your frustration with those who follow the ‘Submitters’ cult, bringing about this messenger guy who keeps contradicting himself. I personally do not call myself a khalifite, or anything else fashionable this month, because God almighty has told us to be Muslims. And that is what I am and intend to be until I die. Please forgive me for the misunderstanding caused when I said we don’t need tafsir, what I was referring to was footnotes, which are commonly referred to as ‘tafsir’.

From what I have read, this Khalifa character seems a bit dodgy in his work, especially with code 19 and his claim of being a messenger, and frankly I don’t care what he was, who he was and what the hell he wanted to do. All I am interested in is what the Quran tells us, that blasphemer can go rot in hell for all I care. You highlighted the undisputed fact that not all of the people who reject hadith agree on everything, but this happens in all sects of Islam, through the different schools of thought and tafsir etc., even Sunnism. All I am trying to do is seek the truth, as to whether hadith are justified by the Quran.

Please brother Pako, what is making me think like this is that God tells us in the magnificent Quran that it is fully detailed and complete, and this is the main thing that makes me stop and think about hadith. What I do not approve of in the least is people who pull out some unreliable hadiths and state that they are wrong, and that we should get rid of all hadith books. This is nothing more than ignorance my friends. All I am trying to do is seek the truth in justification of hadith books, using God as my judge.

With regards to using Arabic dictionaries, and using hadith books, personally, at this moment in time (although I may easily be proven wrong), I think hadeeth books are not needed because the Quran states that it has all the details, and nothing has been left out of it, but Arabic dictionaries can be used by non-Arabs to understand the Quran directly, (i.e. to make sure no words are added in translations).

To all forum members: please do not disregard my presence on this forum, all I want to do is participate in this thread. As far as I see it, we are all one nation of believers, whatever our differences are. I could have just left this issue of rejecting hadiths after finding out about Khalifah and his clan, but I don’t think this issue is minor enough to disregard. I thank you all in advance for your cooperation. The minute I realise that I was fine as a Sunni, God willing I will feel no shame whatsoever to state that publicly on this forum. May God guide us all to the truth.

Peace to everyone,

Monotheist.

monotheist
25-02-2005, 09:58 AM
Come on people, I'm waiting for criticism, we've got a good debate going here!

Peace everybody.
Monotheist.

ahsanirfan
25-02-2005, 01:32 PM
Come on people, I'm waiting for criticism, we've got a good debate going here!

Is your intention debating or learning?

Ansari
25-02-2005, 02:26 PM
By the way, this fatwa belongs to this topic:

Cant you be American /Muslim? Islam is a religion and a way of life, It’s not a Country is it? Please answer me by the Coran and not Hadith, because i only follow the Coran, since a lot of Arabic culture has been mixed up in all of this, I Don’t follow Hadith Thank You and may god bless you

Brother, there is no benefit in us discussing these issues with you, when you are not prepared to accept the statements of our beloved prophet (Sallalahu alaihi wasallam) as proof.

Please look deep into your hear and check the level of your Iman. You claim to follow the Quran, yet what answer do you give to the various verses commanding you to obey the Prophet (sallallahu Alaihi wasallam)? Maybe you would give the normal answer of the misguided "Munkireen al hadith"(Rejecters of ahadith) that this was for those who were present in the time of Nabi (sallallahu alaihiasallam). As for us, as the hadith never reached us in a pure and pristine form (according to their baatil opinion), thus we don't have to follow the ahadith. The answer to it is simple:1. You are thus claiming that Allah Ta'ala commanded you to do something without providing the means for it, thus Allah ordered you to do something impossible. This is baatil, as Allah Ta'ala could never order one to do something out of his capacity.

2. In that case, Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) only benefited those in his time, as his teachings never reached those after him. You are then going clearly against the Quran, which emphatically states that Nabi (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) is a mercy for al of mankind!

3. You claim to follow the Quran as the hadith has been distorted, our question to you is how do you know that the Quran hasn't been distorted? If you say that Allah Ta'ala clearly states that He will protect the Quran, the simple answer to it is that this verse could be a distortion or fabrication!!

There is no sense in us answering our queries as you deny the very proofs upon which our answers would be based. According to you, it would be permissible to "marry an animal", consume faeces, etc. as none of these are expressly forbidden in the Quran. We make dua to Allah Ta'ala to guide you from your deviation and accept us all for the service of his deen, Amin
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12420

Jamaluddine
25-02-2005, 03:54 PM
Assalamu alikum
To monotheist,
First of all, I doubt whether you will ever turn back to sunnah and hadith, because people who reject any of these two a) do not understand what they are, b) have no respect for the Seal of the Prophets (peace be on them all).
However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to help you find the right path, using Qur'an only (since you do not believe in Hadith), but you have got to follow all my arguments with an open heart. OK, ready?!

The version of Qur'an that you are reading is in English, and this means that it is a translation as well as an interpretation, i.e. The person who wrote it (whether it was Yusuf Ali -whom I respect very much-, Pikthall or anyone else) has read the original Arabic text of the Qur'an, (presuming that he could do so), he would then have had to go to a Tafsir book to find out what the verse means (probably Tafsir Ibn Ktheer ...etc), and finally he would have looked for the English words that are closest in meaning to the Arabic ones. A translation cannot possibly be 100% accurate, any person who proficient in Arabic and English will tell you this.

The verse that you referred to (8:12) should have been literally translated as follows: ".......... AND HIT FROM THEM EACH FINGER TIP", which makes no sense in any language, including Arabic. The translator (May Allah reward him for all his good efforts) has read the meaning from Tafsir Ibn Katheer (or others) and then put it in words that are more manageable for the English reader. This would have been necessary with most of the verses in the Qur'an (you can confirm this with any good Arabic reader).

However, the most important question is: Where did Ibn Katheer (and others) get their tafseer from? because a great deal of the Qur'an is truly difficult to understand even for a very learned person in Arabic such as Ibn Katheer. Examples of this in the Qur'an are countless, and I will give you some of them if you want.
The answer to the important question above is: from generations of Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all), and their Followers (Tabiun in Arabic). The Companions of the Prophet (saw) have done an excellent job for us: They have asked him to explain any 'unclear' verses as they were being revealed. Our history books tell about this in detail.

Yusuf Ali does not incite people (as you claimed) to go around cutting people's heads and finger tips off!, I have a copy of his translation now in front of me, and nowhere does it say that.

More to come, In shaallah.
Your bro, Jamaluddine.
Wassalam

monotheist
25-02-2005, 07:58 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

[Is your intention debating or learning?]

Brother Ahsan Irfan, I accept my mistake and I apologise, perhaps I should have said ‘discussion’. Its not a debate because we’re all in the same boat to salvation, I just think that I may be on another way there, and I want to see if I’m going about in circles and then getting there or going there direct. Please, I am here to seek the truth, I don’t want to tell anybody that they are wrong and that I am right, because I don’t know that myself, that is why I am participating on this forum. Only God has the ultimate right to say that; we humans have no knowledge compared to the almighty. I can appreciate how frustrated brothers and sisters on this forum may feel by my presence, but please I really need these questions answering. Please help me.

From the Quote in brother Pako’s response…

[I Don’t follow Hadith Thank You]

I’m not sure this guy really knows what he is talking about, because God says that the Quran is the best hadith! I understand what you are trying to say, but trust me, I am as ever open-minded, and otherwise I would have not come on this forum seeking help from God. I personally don’t think we need to put me on the same level with him, he clearly doesn’t know what he is talking about.

[You claim to follow the Quran, yet what answer do you give to the various verses commanding you to obey the Prophet (sallallahu Alaihi wasallam)? Maybe you would give the normal answer of the misguided "Munkireen al hadith"(Rejecters of ahadith) that this was for those who were present in the time of Nabi (sallallahu alaihiasallam). As for us, as the hadith never reached us in a pure and pristine form (according to their baatil opinion), thus we don't have to follow the ahadith. The answer to it is simple:1. You are thus claiming that Allah Ta'ala commanded you to do something without providing the means for it, thus Allah ordered you to do something impossible. This is baatil, as Allah Ta'ala could never order one to do something out of his capacity.]

Whoever issued this fatwa has brought up an excellent point! We should love, respect and obey the prophet (PBUH). And these "Munkireen al hadith" people are just full of themselves, because in doing so they are rejecting the best hadith, the Quran! I don’t reject the Quran. I fully understand what you mean.

Now please don’t be offended, and I mean no offence to the author of the fatwa or anybody, and may the Merciful one forgive me if I am wrong and guide me towards the truth, but when I am told by God to obey Muhammad (PBUH), I have everything I need to obey the Prophet (PBUH). Please allow me to explain.

I fully understand how the author (may peace be upon him/her) means that to obey the prophet, we need hadith books external to the Quran, however I would disagree here. This point had always been whirling around in my head when I began to think about hadith books. I used to think, “Obviously, if we are to obey the prophet, we need to hear what he tells us, and the only way to do that is hadith books!”. However, subsequent to this, I asked for God for his help and said robbi zidni ilma, and I sat down to read the Quran. This is where I realised the answer to that question, the answer was staring at me in the face! It is accepted that the prophet (PBUH) gave us the Quran from God, and at the time there would undoubtedly have been people who did not believe our beloved prophet, they waged war against him, they hated him. That is why God gave revelation to our prophet that we should obey the prophet (PBUH), which means that we should accept the Quran as a gift from the almighty. Even one of the hadith agrees with this, where the prophet’s wife Aisha (may God be pleased with her) said that Muhammad’s (PBUH) life was the Quran.

Now it could be said that obeying the Quran is not obeying the messenger, because the Quran is God’s words, not Muhammad’s (PBUH), however, at that point in time, when I was reading the Quran in Arabic, I kept on reading the word ‘qul’, ‘qul’, ‘qul’ over and over again, and I had a vague idea that this might mean ‘say’. And that is when I delved into translations. The following are just a few of the many verses in the Quran which guided me and answered my question:

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

2:189 –
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper.

2:215 –
They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, -Allah knoweth it well.

2:217 –
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

2:222
They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

The Quran is what God revealed to Muhammad (PBUH), not a word of it has changed, and that is how Muhammad’s (PBUH) words are preserved. God told him what to say, and he said it. We have all that we need. God has not told us to do something we cannot. Be he glorified.

Whichever way we look at it, we obey the prophet by accepting the Quran from God, which Muhammad (PBUH) spoke to us, and we also obey him by accepting what he tells us because of what God tells him to say, as detailed in the Quran, which…
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

*Is explained in detail*, as in,

6:114 - Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

7:52 - For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

41:3 - Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

*Is clear*, as in,

10:15 - But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

44:2 - By the Book that makes things clear;-

*Contains a full explanation*, as in,

10:37 - This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

*Is perfect and detailed*, as in,

11:1 - A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)

*Explains everything we need for our salvation*, as in,

16:89 - One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

*Contains all examples*, as in,

17:89 - And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!

18:54 - We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

39:27 - We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.

These are but a few to mention. So I personally don’t think that it could be said that what Muhammad (PBUH) was told to say in the Quran is not enough for us to obey him. As far as hadith books go to tell us what Muhammad (PBUH) said, I find it hard to decide on which ones to believe, because through the sifting process of finding the ‘sahih’ hadith, scholars tend to disagree, and if they didn’t then the false hadiths would still not be printed. That’s beside the point, because at this moment in time I see that the Quran has all the details we need to obey Muhammad (PBUH). When God says something, he says it with purpose, and when God doesn’t say something he does so with purpose. He has made Islam easy for us, we don’t need to try and work out what Muhammad (PBUH) said to obey him, we have everything to obey Muhammad (PBUH) detailed and preserved in the Quran, masha-allah.

It was said in the fatwa that “the Quran, which emphatically states that Nabi (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) is a mercy for al of mankind!” The author of the fatwa couldn’t be more right! If Muhammad (PBUH) hadn’t brought the Quran to us, we’d be in a bit of a mess, eating pigs, indulging in interest, not being kind to parents, committing idolatry, stealing, we would be destined for hell! Allahu Akbar!

Please allow me to give my response to brother ‘Jamaluddine’ in the next post. This one has got quite long I think. As I have stated before, the moment I realise that I am wrong I will say so with full honesty, please help me everybody, because I want to hear your views, and adjust myself in the cause of God.

Praise be to the almighty, may he guide the believers.

Peace to all brothers and sisters.

alibaba
25-02-2005, 09:35 PM
"I tried to explain to him that the quran says "establish prayer" but doesent show us how to, hence we look in hadith, however according to him..salah just like all he other obligations have been passed on from generation to generation "

I AM NOT SAYING THAT I DISREGARD THE HADITH IN THE STATEMENT BELOW.....this is meant for people who keep putting words in my mouth...ehem..usman.ehem....

THE FOLLOWING STATMENT IS A QUESTION!!!!
isnt it true that the even the hadith does not tell us how to pray in its entirety...isnt it true that the prayer was established by passing on down from generations rather than being written down?

***THIS QUESTION ABOVE IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM DISREGARDS OR QUESTIONS THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE HADITH OF THE PROPHET....

see what you people have driven me to.....!!! i have to write disclaimers
note......... i need a lawyer to write stuff like this for me...........

monotheist
25-02-2005, 10:56 PM
Monotheist

Peace be to all brothers and sisters.

(In response to jamaluddine)

[First of all, I doubt whether you will ever turn back to sunnah and hadith, because people who reject any of these two a) do not understand what they are, b) have no respect for the Seal of the Prophets (peace be on them all).]

I respect your doubt, because I know that there are a lot of people out there who just can’t stand any criticism. But brother you can rest assured that I will purify my standing if needs arise, that is why I am on this forum, if I was closed minded I would not have bothered to get on this forum. I want to face criticism to be proven wrong or right, that is the way I believe I will reach the truth. I thank you for registering and getting into this debate straight away. Before I make my response to your post though, I must clarify a few things. Firstly, I am pretty sure what I am, and that is a human Muslim. Secondly, I respect the prophet (PBUH) and his finality, and I just laugh at any Tom **** or Harry that wants to be famous.

[The version of Qur'an that you are reading is in English, and this means that it is a translation as well as an interpretation, i.e. The person who wrote it (whether it was Yusuf Ali -whom I respect very much-, Pikthall or anyone else) has read the original Arabic text of the Qur'an, (presuming that he could do so), he would then have had to go to a Tafsir book to find out what the verse means (probably Tafsir Ibn Ktheer ...etc), and finally he would have looked for the English words that are closest in meaning to the Arabic ones. A translation cannot possibly be 100% accurate, any person who proficient in Arabic and English will tell you this.]

A translation is the transition of one text from one language to another without the addition of any words to it. An interpretation is an expression of personal thought of something, regardless of language. I personally never look at just one translation, I look at many. I presume that you have read my post in response to brother Mossy where he thought that without hadith books we would have to go out and smite the heads and finger tips of believers, and with simple logical analysis I showed clearly that this was for the angels to do, and that we require no hadith in any shape or form whatsoever to understand the verse. I don’t think deriving a context to the verse would have cleared anything anyway, in fact it would have made matters complicated, in deciding on which hadith best fits, which hadith is reliable etc. That is why I asked brother Mossy to show me how hadiths would make any difference to the meaning of God’s words.

[The verse that you referred to (8:12) should have been literally translated as follows: ".......... AND HIT FROM THEM EACH FINGER TIP", which makes no sense in any language, including Arabic. The translator (May Allah reward him for all his good efforts) has read the meaning from Tafsir Ibn Katheer (or others) and then put it in words that are more manageable for the English reader. This would have been necessary with most of the verses in the Qur'an (you can confirm this with any good Arabic reader).]

You suggested that 8:12 should have been literally translated as ‘AND HIT FROM THEM EACH FINGER TIP’ and you asserted that this makes no sense in any language, even Arabic, the language which God spoke in. I must state that I feel very uncomfortable when somebody tells me that God’s word literally makes no sense in any language, including Arabic. So effectively it is being said that it did not make sense when God said (because he said it in Arabic as well, without using tafisr ibn katheer or hadith books. I myself believe that God created everything that exists and he created all languages as well. So I can easily reject the idea that God’s words as he said them do not make sense, and that is what you have applied. If the literal translation as you have stated is accurate, then it makes no sense whatsoever to say that it makes no sense. Please bear with me on this one. Looking at it as you have translated, I find it impossible for this to mean anything other than to chop their finger tips off, any other understanding would be illogical and based on the addition of other words to the literal text. Having said that I will still dive further into this verse because (no offence meant, but) I disliked it when you said that the verse made no sense even in Arabic, and that we needed to turn to ‘Ibn Katheer’ to explain God’s words to us. Looking at the following as appeared in an earlier post by me…

10:15 - But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them…
44:2 - By the Book that makes things clear;-

I believe God when he says that the Quran is clear. Even so, for the sake of discussion, we shall ponder over this topic for a little longer. Please follow the logical progression below. Beginning with the commandment in 20:114, robbi zidni ilma. The portion we are concerned with is:

Wadribu minhum kulla banan

Lets look at each word of this to check your literal translation:

[wa] – ‘and’

[daraba] – ‘strike/hit’ (Check 2:73, 7:160, 8:50 18:11 20:18 20:77, 24:43, 37:93, 38:44, 39:51, 43:5, 47:4, 47:27, 51:29 to verify)

[minhum] – ‘from them’

[kl] – ‘each/every’

[banan] - ‘finger tip’ (Check 3:119, 75:4 to verify)
Now to expose the fact that this verse did make sense when God said it, lets put the words together

[and] [strike/hit] [from them] [every/each] [finger tip]

Breaking the sentence up…

‘And strike/hit from them’ – which involves taking something from them, by act of striking/hitting

‘every/each finger tip’ – all the finger tips available.

Putting the words into a simple sentence gives

‘and strike from them, every finger tip’

If even this doesn’t make sense, lets rearrange the words as the would originally have appeared in an English sentence (Acknowledging the undisputable fact that Arabic sentence structure is far different from English):

‘and from them strike every finger tip’

This makes perfect sense as did God when he said it. So after the disbelievers heads and finger tips have been struck off, they will be mentally and physically disabled, a punishment from God delivered by the angels. Simple. Again, I have used English translations and simple logic to deduce the meaning of a verse which was claimed only interpretable using hadith books and ibn katheer as a guide etc.

[a great deal of the Qur'an is truly difficult to understand even for a very learned person in Arabic such as Ibn Katheer. Examples of this in the Qur'an are countless, and I will give you some of them if you want.]

I disagree totally with you saying that it is difficult to understand, if even God says that it is clear. Using 20:114, if we don’t understand something in the Quran we ask God for his help in saying rabbi zidni ilma, and the omnipotent one guides us according to his will. I have already shown that we don’t need hadith or ibn katheer to explain Gods words using two verses which people claimed can only be interpreted using hadith. We must believe God when he says that the Quran is clear (10:15, 44:2) and fully explained (6:114, 7:52, 41:3, 10:37, 16:89). It is clear that when God says in 7:32 that we God is the one that does the explaining for the Quran, and it is he who has done so for me as you have just seen, be the creator of the world glorified. So I believe God and I don’t need any more examples to go through and show that we don’t need hadith or ibn katheer to explain what God is telling us. All I want to know is how the Quran justifies hadith books. If it does, I will as I have said earlier accept that I was wrong in rejecting hadith.

YUSUF ALI : Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.

PICKTHALL : Say: Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say: Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge.

SHAKIR : Say: Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say: These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know.[B]
[Yusuf Ali does not incite people (as you claimed) to go around cutting people's heads and finger tips off!, I have a copy of his translation now in front of me, and nowhere does it say that.]

These are my words:

[Because of Yusuf Ali’s translation, which includes inappropriately placed colons, it appears that we as readers of the Quran are to go around cutting people’s heads and finger tips off.]

I apologise for any misunderstanding you may have but I was making it clear that it was because of Yusuf Ali’s inappropriate use of punctuation that brother Mossy got the idea that we are to cut people heads and finger tips off….

[(ie do we smite the fingertips of disbelievers as a general case? Hi disbeliever, *smite*)]

I was not saying that Yusuf Ali was trying to get us to cut peoples heads and finger tips off, he’s a translator like any other, and as a human he made a mistake with the punctuation, please don’t think that I’ve got a problem with him, I don’t see why I would have a problem with him anyway. I apologise again for the misunderstanding caused brother Jalaluddine, I really didn’t mean it the way you understood it. And again I thank you for making your valuable efforts to help me bro, I really appreciate it. I look forward to hearing more from you as you promised, and from other brothers and sisters.

Peace to everybody.

Monotheist.

monotheist
26-02-2005, 09:42 PM
Any criticism is most welcome.

Peace brothers and sisters.

Jamaluddine
27-02-2005, 10:10 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

To Monotheist (and ALL Hadith and Sunnah rejectors),

The comments that I made in post 37 were in no way meant to offend you. I do apologise if they appeared to do so. I am here to try and help you find the truth about Hadith and Sunnah (that is if you really keep an open mind and be a genuine seeker, like we all are).

As regards verse 8:12, which is probably not the best example for what we are discussing, YOU have only been able to analyze it the way you did because the work of Sahabah (Companions May Allah Be Pleased with Them All), the Mufassiroon and the Translators has already been done for you, i.e. you are setting off from a point where you already know the meaning. There are TWO main problems (among many others that I will mention in due time) with all Hadith and Sunnah rejectors: 1) They take the litteral meaning of the verses in the Qur’an and use their own logical interpretations, and 2) They try to explain some verses of the Qur’an only by looking at other verses of the Qur’an (and not what The Prophet PBUH and the Companions said about them). Let me explain:

The word ‘daraba’, which is (as you pointed out) mentioned in many verse, including: [2:73, 7:160, 8:50 18:11 20:18 20:77, 24:43, 37:93, 38:44, 39:51, 43:5, 47:4, 47:27, 51:29] does not have the same meaning in all of them [e.g. check 4:34 (which you have missed) and 18:11 …etc]. There are also some ‘hidden’ meanings that only a proficient Arabic speaker (and one who lived at the time of the revelation on top of that) would appreciate fully.

I would like to explain further what I have written above, by moving to another point, a much more important and grave point that you have raised, namely…………..

HOW CLEAR IS THE QUR’AN?

You wrote:
[I believe God when he says that the Quran is clear] and you clearly feel uncomfortable when somebody tells you that some verses of the Holy Qur’an make no sense in any language (including Arabic)………..

And I say:
1) I challenge anybody, past present or future, who can claim that they know for definite the meaning (in any language, including Arabic) of the following Holy verses:
2:1, 3:1, 7:1, 10:1. 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1, 15:1, 19:1, 26:1 …etc.

And for those who want to use ‘Logical analysis’ and ‘Mathematical statistics’: What is the ‘logical’ progression in the above verses, i.e. why did Allah (SWT) not start all the Surahs (chapters) of the Qur’an with such letters? Why did He (SWT) only choose those Surahs?
Can you not see that Allah (SWT) is telling us something?

2) Imagine yourself to be a Companion (MABPWT) of the Prophet (PBUH) sitting and listening to him as he reads some verses of the Qur’an that have just been revealed to him, would you not want to ask him to explain some of the words and expressions, in order for you to comply fully and correctly with this crucial and life-changing revelation? If he says: “Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem” would you not ask him what is the difference between ‘Rahman’ and ‘Raheem’ since nobody knew this difference before then,

If he says: “Alhamdulillahi Rabbil A’lameen” would you not want to know what "Alameen” means, i.e what other worlds exist? Are they with us here or after we die?
(Notice that I am only using the Opening chapter because it is the most known chapter of the Qur’an, the same could be said about most of the verses of the Holy Qur’an, there are many many other verses that are much more "unclear" than this if you were hering them for the first time and certainly with NO TRANSLATION OR TAFSEER BOOK IN FRONT OF YOU!)

If he says: “Maliki Yawmi Deen” would you not want what Yawmi Deen meant, what is going to happen in it?

If he says: “Iyyaka Naabudu” would you not want to ask about ‘How’ do we worship Him correctly? Do we worship like the idol worshippers of the time or like the Jews or like the Christians?

If he says: “Siratal Mustaqeem” (What is it?) and “Allatheena Anaamta Alaihim” (who are they? What did they do so that I can do the same?) and “Maghdubi Alaihim” (Who are they?) and “Wala Dalleen” (who are they?)

If he says: (2:3) “Al Ghaib” (the unseen) would you not ask to know what it is?

If he says: (2:3) “Youqeemoona Salaat” (steadfast in Prayer) would you not want a clearer explanation of how you would do this Prayer? (like the idol worshippers of the time or like the Jews or like the Christians?) How many Prayers per day? How many Rakaah in each? How exactly would I perform this in a way that pleases Him (SWT) most? Do I do this alone or in congregation (Jamaah)? (Details of which are nowhere in the Qur’an!)

………etc, etc (I could go on for a long time!)

I of course agree with you that the Qur’an is clear and detailed (as it is pointed out in the verses that you mentioned), but CERTAINLY NOT IN THE WAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND IT! (as I have just shown you above).

The Companions (MABPWT) did ask the Prophet (PBUH) ALL the questions above and much, much more. And all his answers (whether they were in words, deeds, behaviour or otherwise) are called Hadith and Sunnah. IT IS NOT ANOTHER BOOK SENT BY ALLAH (SWT) TO CHALLENGE OR CONTRDICT THE QUR’AN.

People have written multiple books about the life and works of their own champions (Karl Marx, Martin Luther King, Einstein, Elvis Presley, the Popes, …etc) and they try to cherish and copy them in everything they did or say, but you would reject the fact that we take prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as our example! The best of all creation, the man who has been voted by Christians and Jews as “Quote”: ‘The No 1 personality of all time!!’ The man whom Allah (SWT) says about (53:3) “Nor does he say of his own desire, it no less than inspiration sent down to him”

I must go now, but more In shaallah on this and other topics soon.

Your brother,
Jamaluddine

Wassalam.

monotheist
27-02-2005, 05:41 PM
Peace to Jamaluddine, and all brothers and sisters in Islam.

[I am here to try and help you find the truth about Hadith and Sunnah (that is if you really keep an open mind and be a genuine seeker, like we all are).]

I thank you for doing so, you will be me open minded and fully accepting of any kind of criticism, as I have expressed repetitively in previous posts. If I am shown that I am wrong, I will not just carry on to prove my point. That would be senseless.

[YOU have only been able to analyze it the way you did because the work of Sahabah (Companions May Allah Be Pleased with Them All), the Mufassiroon and the Translators has already been done for you, i.e. you are setting off from a point where you already know the meaning]

As I have stated earlier, I have not used any injection of hadith books whatsoever to shows you what 8:12 meant. Firstly I used translation by somebody acceptable by you (accepts hadith books). Then when I was told that Yusuf Ali’s had made use of hadith books and ibn katheer, I showed you that the simple Arabic words on their one did mean something, and that they did make perfect sense in Arabic. Now you are suggesting that the definitions of the Arabic words I used were not accurate because I didn’t get them from hadith books, I only got them from the Quran. I was abstaining from saying anything about hadith books, but I must make a slight touch on them now. Firstly, hadith books were written in Arabic, (and as you claim that they were written down during the prophet’s (PBUH) time, then the Arabic they were written in would have been the same type, unless they have been modified now), which means that we need another source to translate the hadith books! There obviously isn’t one. Now when I expressed the fact that the Quran has words and those words have definitions, and those definitions are given in lexicons/dictionaries expressed constantly by Arabic speaking people around the world, muslim/non-muslim, I was effectively told that we can’t use these definitions. It appears that I am being told that the Arabic language is only definable using hadith books, when in fact these hadith books were written in the same language, so it is clear that we don’t need hadith books to learn a language. We learn the language not from literature, but from dictionaries, sentence structure etc. I see no logic in saying that hadith books are need to understand the language of the Quran. First I was told that we needed the context to understand the Quran. When I showed it to be otherwise I am being told that we need hadith books to understand the language, when in fact they are both in the same language, so one cannot be used to interpret the other, in fact I would say that the language of hadith books can be much more accurately be interpreted using the Quran! And not the other way round, because the Quran is superior to hadith books, which every way you look at it.

[There are TWO main problems (among many others that I will mention in due time) with all Hadith and Sunnah rejectors: 1) They take the litteral meaning of the verses in the Qur’an and use their own logical interpretations, and 2) They try to explain some verses of the Qur’an only by looking at other verses of the Qur’an (and not what The Prophet PBUH and the Companions said about them).]

I will now make my response to the two points you have just highlighted, but firstly, I am not a hadith rejector, because I accept the best hadith, which God says is the Quran:

I. “They take the litteral meaning of the verses in the Qur’an and use their own logical interpretations” - I do not take the literal meaning as you put it, I look at the words, I put them together, and I read the sentence formed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Besides God’s words are most certainly not such that would mislead without other sources are consulted first. Secondly, I do not use ‘logical interpretation’ to understand the verse. I use the God given gift of ‘logic’ to understand each sentence, and I believe God when he says that he personally explains the Quran to those who know of him, as I have expressed on several occasions earlier in this thread.

2. “They try to explain some verses of the Quran only by looking at other verses of the Quran (and not what The Prophet PBUH and the Companions said about them)” – Firstly, God says that the Quran contains a full explanation of everything, which includes itself. I do not see how God would say something that we do not understand and let us fish about to find out what it means. God says that the Quran is clear and I believe him. The Quran is the best hadith, and as far as believing what the prophet (PBUH) said, I believe the best hadith available, the Quran. That is enough for me as an explanation of everything, as God has said repetitively in his glorious message to mankind. Now if we go down the line of looking at the prophet’s (PBUH) words, that apparently he spoke as recorded in hadith books external to the Quran, we realise that for each verse people could easily come up with several hadith that try to make sense of the verse, and result in giving totally different ’interpretations’ of the same verse. Then it becomes a matter of which hadith book to believe, which narrator to believe and which scholar who accepts them to believe. I see no point in doing this whatsoever. When God says that the Quran is the best hadith, he means it, and that is why I don’t try to understand the best hadith with lower hadith books. It is evident that scholars disagree with which hadith to believe in and which not to, because it is clear that everybody says that fabricated hadiths still exist in the hadith books,. The only reason for their existence is that the scholars can’t decide on which to accept and which to reject. That is why I believe God when he says that the Quran is fully detailed and complete.

[The word ‘daraba’, which is (as you pointed out) mentioned in many verse, including: [2:73, 7:160, 8:50 18:11 20:18 20:77, 24:43, 37:93, 38:44, 39:51, 43:5, 47:4, 47:27, 51:29] does not have the same meaning in all of them [e.g. check 4:34 (which you have missed) and 18:11 …etc]. There are also some ‘hidden’ meanings that only a proficient Arabic speaker (and one who lived at the time of the revelation on top of that) would appreciate fully.]

The list of verses I gave was not intended to be exhaustive in any way, as I thought you would have understood. Secondly the extra verses you have highlighted have the same word and have the same meaning. God says clearly that he did not run out of words, so we need no extras words to complete his message to us. Now what I am about to quote is something I feel very disappointed by. “There are also some ‘hidden’ meanings that only a proficient Arabic speaker (and one who lived at the time of the revelation on top of that) would appreciate fully.” Firstly, God said clearly that the disbelievers have their hearts sealed, and that they will not be able to understand the Quran. This includes disbelievers who are professors in Arabic, who eat Arabic, sleep Arabic, work Arabic and play Arabic. God says clearly in 3:7…

[He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.]

This verse does not say those who are firmly grounded in the language of Arabic, in fact it talks about men of understanding, those who understand the existence of God, and believe in him. I greatly dislike it when somebody says that the Quran and its meanings and ‘hidden meanings’ are only accessible to proficient Arabic speakers. This is most certainly not true. Gods did not reveal the final message just for Arab’s, and his religion is not just for Arabs, it is for everybody. In fact the Quran says something about Arab’s that should not be overlooked (I am not saying this myself, God is)…

9:97 - The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

9:101 - Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

I am as a result critical of people who say that we need to be Arabic. There is no justification of that whatsoever in the Quran. And when you say that they were accessible only to those who were present and that time, this is even more displeasing to me, because as I have highlighted on numerous occasions, God explains his revelations to those who know of him and not just the Arab speaking people around the prophet (PBUH) when he was alive. So it is clear that we should seek God’s help by (as prescribed in 20:114) saying robbi zidni ilmaa, and not just turning to other books, I don’t think we should underestimate God’s power when he says that he himself will explain his revelation.

[HOW CLEAR IS THE QUR’AN?]

I don’t even need to answer this question. If he says it is fully explained over and over again, if he says that it is clear over and over again, if he says it is perfect over and over gain, if he says it contains all examples over and over again, I don’t think it would make any sense to say that he isn’t really meaning what he says. I am quite shocked at the question you have just asked. My brother in Islam, this is a matter of BELIEVING GOD as well as BELIEVNG IN GOD. God most certainly does not lie.

[1) I challenge anybody, past present or future, who can claim that they know for definite the meaning (in any language, including Arabic) of the following Holy verses:
2:1, 3:1, 7:1, 10:1. 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1, 15:1, 19:1, 26:1 …etc.]

Challenge accepted my friend. As a matter of fact, I will with God’s permission and help use the Quran and literal translation for non-Arab brothers and sisters to see me do this for you brother Jalaluddine, as I have done with other verses previously. In fact, I would really appreciate if you could find even more verses in the Quran which you think need hadith books to help us understand God’s words, because God willing it will help increase my knowledge and strengthen my faith in the Quran, when I show you with God’s help and guidance what they mean. I will God willing deal with this in the next post, for now though I will make my response to the rest of your post.

[And for those who want to use ‘Logical analysis’ and ‘Mathematical statistics’: What is the ‘logical’ progression in the above verses, i.e. why did Allah (SWT) not start all the Surahs (chapters) of the Qur’an with such letters? Why did He (SWT) only choose those Surahs?
Can you not see that Allah (SWT) is telling us something?]

It appears to me that you are mocking me for being a non-Arab and still being able to understand the Quran. However, I forgive you for this, because you perhaps did not write it in this way to mean any offence to me personally. By the way, I have never used the words ‘Mathematical statistics’ in this thread at all, and I understand where that is coming from. (Trust me bro, I’m not like them). Please be patient and keep and open mind and I will in my next post (With God’s permission) show you exactly why, you may well even be surprised that it is a non-Arab youngster that is telling you this. I really like what you are doing. I came on this forum to face criticism, and that is what you are providing me with. I am very grateful to you and all brothers and sisters who are contributing. For now though, as far as seeing what God is telling us goes, I can clearly see that he means it when he says that the Quran is fully detailed and complete, contains all examples needed, has nothing left out of it, and is explained personally by himself to those who believe and don’t have veils over their hearts to stop them from understanding.

[2) Imagine yourself to be a Companion (MABPWT) of the Prophet (PBUH) sitting and listening to him as he reads some verses of the Qur’an that have just been revealed to him, would you not want to ask him to explain some of the words and expressions,]

Firstly, I needn’t try to ‘imagine’ myself to be a companion of the prophet (PBUH), because I obviously am not. As I have stated before, this Quran is not just for Arab’s who were with the prophet (PBUH) when he was a live, and he did not leave us to work out which hadith’s to believe when he has given us a fully detailed Quran. Now if I imagine that I am indeed a companion of the prophet (PBUH) I would still not ask him to ‘explain some of the words and expressions’ because, as you would agree, the prophet (PBUH) was ummy (illiterate). Simple. After giving you this answer I could easily ignore the list of God’s words that you said need hadith books to be explained, but then you might say that I am just copping out. So for the sake of discussion, I will direct you to an article written by a sister in islam at http://www.quran-islam.org/227.html who has focussed on the ‘Rahman’ and given a comprehensive definition for it using the Quran alone, no hadeeth books or ibn katheer. I myself will not go into a debate as to what this list of words means because it is clear that when God says that he has made thing clear, he means it, he does not need anything else to explain it to, be he glorified, above having partners. I am not here to come up with new definitions for words. I am here to ask you for verses from the Quran which tell us to accept hadith books external to the Quran. I may be wrong but it is clear that this could just be a way to drift off the topic of hadith by questioning the integrity of the Quran. May God save us all from such sin. When he says that everything has been explained in the book I see no sense whatsoever in you asking things like:

[If he says: “Maliki Yawmi Deen” would you not want what Yawmi Deen meant, what is going to happen in it?]

The Quran tells us exactly what will happen, just reading one verse and ignoring the rest and saying that it doesn’t mean anything without another book I’m afraid is just not good enough to justify the use of hadith books. By the way, one thing that will happen is shown in 25:30

Yusuf Ali - Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Shakir - And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
Pickthall - And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.

Muhammad (PBUH) himself will complain to God that HIS PEOPLE have abandoned the Quran. Now the only way his own people would abandon the book would be in not believing it, namely, not believing that it is fully detailed and complete, and contains all examples, has nothing left out of it. It is not me saying this, it is the prophet (PBUH) saying this.

Just the way you said [I could go on for a long time!] I will not spend too much time in justifying God when he says that the Quran is fully detailed and complete.

[I of course agree with you that the Qur’an is clear and detailed (as it is pointed out in the verses that you mentioned), but CERTAINLY NOT IN THE WAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND IT! (as I have just shown you above).

I agree that I don’t understand it in the way you do, because you believe that it is has some details and that we need more details, and I believe that it is fully detailed and complete, as in…

6:114 - Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

7:52 - For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

41:3 - Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

[IT IS NOT ANOTHER BOOK SENT BY ALLAH (SWT) TO CHALLENGE OR CONTRDICT THE QUR’AN.]

I agree, as you so clearly put it, that it is not another book sent by God, but its very existence most certainly challenges and contradicts the Quran. Please be patient and open minded when looking at the following verses. Again, it is not me saying this, it is God.

5:44
Yusuf Ali - If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
Shakir - Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
Pickthall - whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers

You clearly admitted that hadith books are not what God has revealed, and you say that the Quran hasn’t all the details, so you don’t judge by what God has revealed, but by other human authored books as well.

6:114
Yusuf Ali - "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
Shakir - Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
Pickthall - Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

The Quran is explained in detail, and we are told not to doubt this, and to judge using God’s words only.

Now the point is being put forward that Muhammad (PBUH) was there to explain the Quran. His ONLY job (most clearly seen in Shakir’s translation, where the word ‘Only’ has been exposed, as it is in the arabic) was to made a delivery of the Quran. Have a read of these…

13:40
And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for ONLY the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business)

16:82
YUSUFALI: But if they turn away, thy duty is ONLY to preach the clear Message.
PICKTHAL: Then, if they turn away, thy duty (O Muhammad) is BUT PLAIN CONVEYANCE (of the message).
SHAKIR: But if they turn back, then on you devolves ONLY the clear deliverance (of the message)

024.054
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is ONLY to preach the clear (Message).
PICKTHAL: Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) ONLY that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But THE MESSENGER HATH NO OTHER CHARGE THAN TO CONVEY (THE MESSAGE) PLAINLY.
SHAKIR: Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and NOTHING RESTS ON THE MESSENGER BUT CLEAR DELIVERING (OF THE MESSAGE).

68:36-38
What is the matter with you? How judge ye? - Or have ye a book through which ye learn- - That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose?

This applies perfectly with hadith books, because people say that the Quran doesn’t have enough details, so they turn to other books, and God questions these people about how they can get out of it anything they want. For example if you want to prohibit something, there would be some hadith somewhere which would allow this (like they say, where there is a will theres a way), when in fact the Quran may not prohibit that. Hadith books are truly books which people can extract whatever they want. Again, it is not me saying this, it is God saying this.

[People have written multiple books about the life and works of their own champions (Karl Marx, Martin Luther King, Einstein, Elvis Presley, the Popes, …etc) and they try to cherish and copy them in everything they did or say, but you would reject the fact that we take prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as our example! The best of all creation, the man who has been voted by Christians and Jews as “Quote”: ‘The No 1 personality of all time!!’ The man whom Allah (SWT) says about (53:3) “Nor does he say of his own desire, it no less than inspiration sent down to him”]

Firstly, I do not need the Christians and Jews to tell me that he is an example for us all the Quran is sufficient to tell me that, and secondly you say that I don’t follow his example, because I do not accept hadith books external to the Quran. This is false. Please allow me to explanation. Again my friend you will need an open mind and heart to understand. God says clearly that Muhammad (PBUH) is an example for us…

33:21
Yusuf Ali - Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Pickthall - Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
Shakir - Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

So people would say this means that to follow Muhammad’s (PBUH) example, we must copy him in everything he did, and to do that, we are to use hadith books. However, when the whole Quran is read, we see…

60:4
Yusuf Ali - There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in ABRAHAM AND THOSE WITH HIM, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone": But not when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah." (They prayed): "Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.

Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false, he was an excellent example, as was Muhammad (PBUH), and as you stated earlier, God would never tell us to do anything without given us the means to do it. This applies in this case as well. The way we follow their examples is that they were both monotheistic. They believed in the existence of the only one true God, his revelations, the angels, his books, all the beliefs they had as detailed in the Quran. Now it could be argued, that Muhammad is a better example for us or special (though it says this nowhere in the Quran), and so we need to copy him exactly. Let’s turn to God and see what he says in this matter…

2:136 - Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: WE MAKE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER OF THEM: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

2:285 - The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "WE MAKE NO DISTINCTION (THEY SAY) BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER OF HIS MESSENGERS." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

3:84 - Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: WE MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER AMONG THEM, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

4:152 - To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN ANY OF THE MESSENGERS, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

These are but a few examples where God tells us clearly that all prophets are on the same level, and that Muhammad (PBUH) was not special out of any of them. Now, according to popular belief, it is said that Muhammad was the perfect one, and that we need to copy him in everything he did to make him an example for us. We shall look at verses 1-14 of chapter 80, which is itself names Surah-e-Abasa (he frowned). For 80:2 though, we shall look at more than just Yusuf Ali’s translation, you shall see when I come to it. Let’s find out what God has to say about Muhammad (PBUH) being perfect…

80:1
(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

80:2
YUSUFALI: Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
PICKTHAL: Because the blind man came unto him.
SHAKIR: Because there came to him the blind man.

Is it just me or did anybody else notice the injection of the word ‘interupting’ in Yusuf Ali’s translation. I will not say anything with my own words, apart from the fact that that word is most certainly not there in the Arabic. I will leave you to make your own conclusions.

80:3-14
But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
To him dost thou attend;
Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
And with fear (in his heart),
Of him wast thou unmindful.
BY NO MEANS (SHOULD IT BE SO)! FOR IT IS INDEED A MESSAGE OF INSTRUCTION:
THEREFORE LET WHOSO WILL, KEEP IT IN REMEMBRANCE.
(IT IS) IN BOOKS HELD (GREATLY) IN HONOUR,
EXALTED (IN DIGNITY), KEPT PURE AND HOLY,

This is but one scenario where Muhammad (PBUH) is seen clearly not to be perfect, and that God is informing him of his mistakes. Now it could be said that if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us? The simple answer to that is that we learn from our own mistakes, and we also learn from other’s mistakes (Social learning theory). We learn from the Quran that he is a monotheist, so we follow his example by being monotheists, and when he makes a mistake, we learn from his example, and try not to make that mistake, in this case, we are to respect those with disabilities. Perhaps you may have noticed that I have put the last few verses I have quoted in capitals. The reason for that is that, as you may have noticed, God firstly narrates a mistake that Muhammad (PBUH) made, then he talks about the Quran being the message of instruction. I think there is a reason why God has done this.

To conclude this post, I would talk about what you said…

[The man whom Allah (SWT) says about (53:3) “Nor does he say of his own desire, it no less than inspiration sent down to him”]

You couldn’t be more right brother Jalaluddine, Muhammad (PBUH) could never have given any teachings of his own external to what God revealed to him (The Quran)….

69:43-49
(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).
But verily this is a Message for the Allah-fearing.
And We certainly know that there are amongst you those that reject (it).

That’s is the end of my response to brother Jalaluddine, in my next post, God willing I shall (as promised) give an explanation for the verses brother Jalaluddine stated in his challenge for me to give meanings for without hadith books or ibn katheer. Insha-allah, I will do this without dictionaries or lexicons, again, just the way I have done earlier in this thread.

Brother Jalaluddine: If I have said anything which was not nice then please forgive me my friend. I am very pleased that you have helped increase my understanding of the Quran by making me face criticism, and I am very grateful to the lord for sending you to do this for me. May God grant you paradise (and me as well, can’t forget myself now can I!).

Any criticism is most welcome.
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

monotheist
27-02-2005, 10:12 PM
Peace to Jamaluddine, and all brothers and sisters in Islam.

With regards to brother Jamaluddine’s challenge to those who reject hadith books external to best hadith, which was worded as follows…
__________________________________________________ _______________________

I challenge anybody, past present or future, who can claim that they know for definite the meaning (in any language, including Arabic) of the following Holy verses:
2:1, 3:1, 7:1, 10:1. 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1, 15:1, 19:1, 26:1 …etc.

And for those who want to use ‘Logical analysis’ and ‘Mathematical statistics’: What is the ‘logical’ progression in the above verses, i.e. why did Allah (SWT) not start all the Surahs (chapters) of the Qur’an with such letters? Why did He (SWT) only choose those Surahs?
Can you not see that Allah (SWT) is telling us something?
__________________________________________________ _______________________

Firstly, I would like to purify the challenge by listing all the verses brother Jamaluddine was talking about, which would be as follows:

2:1, 3:1, 7:1, 10:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1, 15:1, 19:1, 20:1, 26:1, 27:1, 28:1, 29:1, 30:1, 31:1, 32:1, 36:1, 38:1, 40:1, 41:1, 42:1, 43:1, 44:1, 45:1, 46:1, 50:1, 68:1.

The beginnings of these verses consist of individual letters, which make no words when put together, examples of which are [A-L-M-S], [K-H-Y-A-S], [H-M-A-S-Q], [Q].

A challenge was set for anyone who rejects hadith external to the Quran to show the definite meaning of the above mentioned verses. I opt to take the responsibility of carrying this out. But before I do so, I would like to highlight a few verses and show their relevance to this situation.

39:6
He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: HE MAKES YOU, IN THE WOMBS OF YOUR MOTHERS, IN STAGES, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, IN THREE VEILS OF DARKNESS. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?

Before the use of ultra sound scanning and other medical technologies, the meaning of this verse was unknown, because everybody knew that it meant that we were made in stages, and in three veils of darkness, but nobody knew what these stages were and what the three veils of darkness were, and there was no literature at that time to show specifically what these three veils of darkness were. And Hadith books or ibn katheer most certainly did not say exactly what these veils of darkness were, (though the hadith books published nowadays may even contain the Latin terminology as post hoc insertions!) The fact is, the meaning of this verse was known, but it was not understood otherwise until God intended us to understand it, which was to show the whole world that the Quran has indeed been sent by God, the ones one who created everything, so that we don’t harbour any doubts about it. Instances like this are in great supply throughout the Quran. The following are a few more examples.

86.11
YUSUFALI: By the Firmament which returns (in its round),
PICKTHAL: By the heaven which giveth the returning rain,
SHAKIR: I swear by the raingiving heavens,

The meaning of this verse is that the sky it returns something (the word rain is not there in the Arabic, as may be seen in these translations), however, water is what is returned, not rain, rain is only given by the clouds. Naturally, just the way God likes to do things, he increased our scientific knowledge of electromagnetic radiation, and then when we looked back at this verse, we realised that he was talking about electromagnetic waves, which are reflected by the sky, which we make used of in communication, telephone, radio, GPS, the internet… This knowledge was nowhere to be found in hadith books. So we knew what the verse meant, which was that the sky returns something, but God had planned that he would give us knowledge at the right time to convince everybody that the Quran was indeed from God. Even before the understanding came to us from God, people accepted the verse; they had no problem with it.

41:11
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

We knew the meaning of this verse, where God told something gaseous to come together, and before we had the advanced knowledge of physics we have today, we could still appreciate from the verse that God has the power to say something and everything submits to his will. And then, the way he does it, God gave us the knowledge that all the planets we have today were once in a gaseous state, and when individual gaseous particles came together as God ordered, they became planets. Again we were given subsequent knowledge to convince us that the Quran is indeed from God, not written by any human. No hadith books etc. gave any hint towards this phenomenon.

75:3-4
Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

Before we had finger printing technologies, not many people would have known that there are no two humans on earth with exactly the same finger prints, (even identical twins brought up in the same environment!). We had the knowledge of the meaning of the verse before fingerprinting techniques, which was that God could re-assemble our finger tips, but we did not have the God given knowledge a to why it was the finger prints. Hadith books give nothing on that either. But just as he always does, he gave us the knowledge later to prove that the Quran is from him, and not from any human.

006.125
YUSUFALI: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

Now in the time when nobody had flown up in the skies, people would not have known that the air pressure causes the chest to become compressed. We still knew what the verse meant, but God subsequently gave us knowledge to prove that the Quran was from God.

After having possibly caused all the frustration of having to read through all that, I will finally come down to meet the challenge set by brother Jamaluddine.

1. First port of call - seek help from the Author of this magnificent book. 20:114 says clearly that if you don’t understand the meaning of a word, then seek his help, by saying "O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge." (Robbi zidni ilmaa). This is the first and most important step, without God’s help nothing is possible.

2. Context - Look at the context of the verse. It is clear that many of the words immediately after the letters have something in common, lets list some of them first, (Using Yusuf Ali’s Translation)…

2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

3. Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

7. A Book revealed unto thee,- So let thy heart be oppressed no more by any difficulty on that account,- that with it thou mightest warn (the erring) and teach the Believers).

10. These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom

11. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things):

12. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.

13. These are the signs (or verses) of the Book: that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the Truth; but most men believe not.

14. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-

15. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.

19. (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya

20. We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,

Many appear to be about what God does and has done for us.

Now looking at the whole book. When we humans write something, say a letter, we endorse it don’t we, we print on it some kind of signature, to certify that it is from us. Has God done that with the Quran? Yes he has! First he puts down some initials, and then says what he does. Just the way we would sign our names and then say what we do, namely our professions. That’s all fair and good I hear you say, but why the initials? Well, (as the Arab’s with long names would understand), we always put down some kind of abbreviation don’t we. So has God, but because he has got so many names/attributes, putting a few letters down is enough, because even language is his creation, it belongs to him, just the way our names belong to us.

Now I will clear up why I referred to so many verses earlier in this post. Just as in those verses, we knew the meanings without needing hadith books etc, but there were some things we did not realise because at that time our knowledge had not been increased by the God to show us that God is the author of this glorious book. Before that point in time though, we humans were still happy with God’s revelation. Exactly the same principles apply to these initials at the start of some chapters.

Now some people claim that the knowledge that was to come and show that the Quran is actually from God has come, although going into the details of this knowledge would not be appreciated on this website, because it is associated with this guy who calls himself a messenger. However, I would like to mention that the number of times each letter appears in the chapters is mathematically significant, and locks the content of the Quran to prevent tampering. Whether we believe this after looking into it or not (Though even personalities such as Ahmad Deedat and Richard Voss agree that the mathematics involved was truly amazing), God has given signs throughout the Quran that it is indeed from him, and it is claimed that the knowledge that was needed to show his divine authorship has come after mathematical analysis of the Quran. I myself, as yet have not formed an opinion on this, because of its association with somebody who claims to be messenger. Further information about this can be found in this acrobat file http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/19.pdf . The author has made great efforts to clear up misunderstandings, and I am as a result currently in the process of carrying out the counts myself, because I am as ever open minded and don’t want to miss out on assistance from God. So I would like to conclude in saying that these initials have been written by God with the significance that the Quran is indeed from God, and not written by a human.

But before I end this post, I would like to answer brother Jamaluddine’s question as to [why did Allah (SWT) not start all the Surahs (chapters) of the Qur’an with such letters? Why did He (SWT) only choose those Surahs?]. Well the answer is simple, why do we put our addresses and phone numbers at the top of a letter, our signatures at the bottom, and postage stamps on a corner of an envelope? That is because we comply to a system to show that we have created the mail, and God has his system to show that he has written the glorious Quran. Now hadith books have never given any kind of explanation for them, except the usual answer that ‘God knows’. But because of actually looking into the Quran and asking God for his help, a few more of us do know now.

Finally, answering another of brother Jamaluddine’s questions…

[Can you not see that Allah (SWT) is telling us something?]

I have just shown for all forum members to see that God is telling us clearly that it is him that has written this beautiful book. I may now conclude that in this post I have not referred to any hadith books, Tafsir ibn katheer or any other hadith external to the Quran. I can predict already that in response to this post people will probably say that I have used hadith and Tafsir ibn katheer, because I used English translations. Well a short and simple answer to that is this: The Quran was written in Arabic, and hadith books were written in Arabic, (people claim). The Quran is superior, and so the Quran should be used to understand the language of hadith books, if they really need to be understood that is, and not the other way round, because God says that he has made the Quran clear and fully explained, and I am in no position to question him when he says that.

Again, I would like to express my open minded position that if I realise that I am wrong in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran, then I will accept that straight away, and I would presume other contributors to this thread think like that as well. I ask for forgiveness if I have offended anybody in anything I have said, may God show us all the straight path to salvation.

Peace to all brothers and sisters.
Monotheist.

Kaarpal pandit
28-02-2005, 11:38 PM
so at the nd of the day....... its night

just wondering, have u read ure fajar namaz 2day? u can talk the talk but can u walk the walk

and u cannot clearly say hadith is wrong. ie: in one hadith it clearly mentions, to insult and abuse a muslim is sinfull and to fight is kufur!
so what u trying to say that this hadith is wrong, prove where it doesnt say in the quran about hitting another human being. i'm big ure small, i right ure wrong and i'm clever ure not.. all i'm saying is that not all the hadith is wrong u have 2 fink outside the box it's like..
u have a tray of eggs and u see one broken u aint gonna say all of em r broken cause they may not be, neva jump 2 conclusions

if hadith is wrong then why for so long have people been following the quran and the hadith, come on get real, u really think that ppl are goin to listen 2 u now.....lol


so i dont want u to hit me wiv them massive essays cause i would appreciate it if u can make it short and snappy....so some hadith may b wrong but not all u prove 2 me that all hadith is wrong, i;ve givin a example of one correct hadith above.

safe y'all

Kaarpal pandit
28-02-2005, 11:42 PM
ps: couldnt b asked reading all ure long essay b specific and snappy if ure the real don

monotheist
01-03-2005, 12:54 PM
Peace brother/sister Karpaal

So that you read this post I shall try to keep it as short as possible whilst still answering all of your criticisms.

[so at the nd of the day....... its night]

Good joke.

[just wondering, have u read ure fajar namaz 2day? u can talk the talk but can u walk the walk]

I invite you to read my posts, perhaps then you would think otherwise.

[and u cannot clearly say hadith is wrong. ie: in one hadith it clearly mentions, to insult and abuse a muslim is sinfull and to fight is kufur!
so what u trying to say that this hadith is wrong, prove where it doesnt say in the quran about hitting another human being. i'm big ure small, i right ure wrong and i'm clever ure not.. all i'm saying is that not all the hadith is wrong u have 2 fink outside the box it's like..
u have a tray of eggs and u see one broken u aint gonna say all of em r broken cause they may not be, neva jump 2 conclusions]

If you had read my posts, you would have found that I have said the following at the outset in Post #33,…

[Please brother Pako, what is making me think like this is that God tells us in the magnificent Quran that it is fully detailed and complete, and this is the main thing that makes me stop and think about hadith. WHAT I DO NOT APPROVE OF IN THE LEAST IS PEOPLE WHO PULL OUT SOME UNRELIABLE HADITHS AND STATE THAT THEY ARE WRONG, AND THAT WE SHOULD GET RID OF ALL HADITH BOOKS. THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN IGNORANCE MY FRIENDS. ALL I AM TRYING TO DO IS SEEK THE TRUTH IN JUSTIFICATION OF HADITH BOOKS, USING GOD AS MY JUDGE.]

You said:

[if hadith is wrong then why for so long have people been following the quran and the hadith, come on get real, u really think that ppl are goin to listen 2 u now.....lol]

As you have put it that so many people have been following the hadith books external to the Quran, using the same thinking, it could be possible to justify idolatry, because many more people are in disbelief than those who believe. Secondly, I am getting ‘real’ in seeking the truth rather than following my parents blindly, as we are told not to do in the Quran. And I am not telling anybody to listen to me, though I would strongly encourage anybody is to listen to what God says in the Quran. As far as saying that I am right goes, I said in post #29:

[I search for the truth. If at any point in the discussion I see that my position is wrong, I will declare on this forum that I was indeed wrong…]

You said:
[so i dont want u to hit me wiv them massive essays cause i would appreciate it if u can make it short and snappy....]

I do in fact try my level best to keep my posts as short and concise as possible, however much space is taken up in responding to criticism, the very thing I am on this forum to receive!

You said:
[ps: couldnt b asked reading all ure long essay b specific and snappy if ure the real don]

I will not say anything to this other than it is our duty to seek the truth and perhaps I am doing this well. All I would say is that the length of this life in infinitely small compared to the next, so personally I would spend as much time as possible in trying to make sure I get the best time I can in the next life, which is why I also read the long posts which carry criticisms for me. And I am not the ‘don’, I am nothing more than a servant of the creator.

I hope that helps. By the way, It is interesting how people all of a sudden stop responding and new registered users pop up just to criticise me, without participating in any other threads whatsoever. Could this possibly be a way of trying to get me to respond abusively in such a way that prevents people from reading my posts? God knows best. I will avoid suspicion. All I am hereto do is seek the truth. May God guide us all to salvation.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

Monotheist.

Kaarpal pandit
01-03-2005, 10:27 PM
well firstly its abit obvious that i'm a brother and not a sister, if u opend those eyes and read the profile which clearly says, gender;brother

okay enough about that

remember it is easy copyin n pastin...but can u clearly expand on ure hadith rejection....no essays plz i'm only human

another example of hadith.....
Kitaab At-Tawheed, Chapter: 59

it clearly says in the hadith book about.... for example swearing

i can clearly say that in the hadith books it mentions about swearin been forbidden n ure sayin hadith is wrong..com on get real (so not all hadith books are wrong? or r they don?

"The best of people are those of my generation, then those who follow them, then those who follow them, after which there will come a people whose testimonies will precede their oaths and whose oaths will precede their testimonies."hadith"

quran also says
" Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: For expiation feed ten indigent persons what would be average food for your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. And whoever did not find [the means for that, let him] fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths you have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His Signs, that you may be grateful" (Qur'an 5:89)

so DON jus admit it ure wrong n i'm right, hadith is also correct but i admit some are not as they can b made up by some unknown sources.
my prove above shows that it says in a hadith book that swearin is forbidden and it also mentions in the quran so what r u sayin i reject all hadith etc...

plz bro dnt jump 2 conclusions ure a little confused yet trust me b careful on what u read and where uour soruces com from.

ohrrite Einstien i'm off for a quick sarnny, which is a sandwich lol

peace yall

"la yar hamulah hu mann la yar humanas-allah will not have mercy upon those who do not have mercy upon others "-hadith

so bro i'm jus doin my job dont b angry...lol

monotheist
02-03-2005, 03:20 AM
Peace ‘brother’ Kaarpal.

[well firstly its abit obvious that i'm a brother and not a sister, if u opened those eyes and read the profile which clearly says, gender;brother] - I was waiting for you to say this, and you didn’t disappoint me! So is it still safe then for me to say then that you are a hindu idol worshiping pundit? Lets just leave it at that. I have no intention of getting personal the way you do, I am here to discuss the Quran and hadith books external to the Quran. God is witness of the intentions in your heart and the intentions in my heart.

[remember it is easy copyin n pastin...but can u clearly expand on ure hadith rejection....no essays plz i'm only human] - Perhaps you should remember that it is even easier to firstly read the posts where I have expanded on my reasoning, and then to respond. I was doing you a favour by highlighting what I have already said before, because you clearly don’t want to discuss the truth. Well as I would like to highlight to you and all forum members, whatever intentions we all have, I find it very interesting how not a single forum member complained at the length of brother Ibn Ajiba’s seemingly lengthy post (#14) earlier on, even though not a single specific reference was made to even one verse from the Quran (last edited on 19/1/05), whereas I have put up posts which are inarguably filled with verses from the Quran and yet somehow somebody (whether newly registered or a experienced) doesn’t like my posts.

I have enjoyed being criticised on this thread, and I would very much appreciate it if you could provide such criticism, however as it stands you have not read even a tenth of what I have said. So I shall give you 2 weeks worth of time to read my posts, which gives you until the 16TH OF MARCH to read this thread thoroughly, only after that date will I respond to any more of your posts, and we shall then with God’s permission engage in healthy discussion. For now though I shall keep you satisfied by completing my response to your post.

[so DON jus admit it ure wrong n i'm right] - I have already expressed my displeasure at being called a DON, but if you insist, then God is witness over all things. I would like to make a request for the more civil forum members to continue the discussion with me to seek the truth in the cause of God.

[plz bro dnt jump 2 conclusions ure a little confused yet trust me b careful on what u read and where uour soruces com from.] - My advice to you exactly, thanks for wording it for me.

[ohrrite Einstien i'm off for a quick sarnny, which is a sandwich lol] - God willing your sarcasm will easily turn to a compliment once you have read the rest of our posts in this thread.

[so bro i'm jus doin my job dont b angry...lol] - Forgive me for not being the gullible target you envisaged for your ‘job’, but perhaps you haven’t met many people who can see clearly through deception. I can say with full certainty that your intention is not to discuss this issue with me, but to provoke a change in my approach on this thread, so that my voice can be toned down. Unfortunately for you I will not let this happen, that is why I will not respond to any of your posts 2 weeks from today, so that other forum members get the chance to contribute.

TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS: I eagerly await criticism of my previous posts from the more civil members, such as brother Mossy, and brother Jamaluddine, and as all would agree, it is unreasonable to expect me or indeed anybody else to respond to someone who has stated clearly that they cannot be bothered reading other peoples posts, and I would recommend that brothers and sisters enforce this message to Karpaal pundit.

Peace to everyone and may God guide us all to the truth, that which I am on this forum to seek.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
02-03-2005, 10:31 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

TO ALL HADITH AND SUNNAH ACCEPTORS, LOVERS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH),

I have not been able to get on the forum because of my extremely busy life, but when I finally got a little 'breather' and got on it I found that this character who calls himself 'Monotheist' is still enjoying his little 'game' of abusing our prophet and thinking that 'he knows it all'.
Therefore I apologise to you all for the length and content of the following modest contribution. I intend to get back to you later and explain 'who these Hadith rejectors really are, and what they believe'.

TO MONOTHEIST,

[clipped]

By mistake, you showed us your true colours in post 34 by saying: "Come on people, I'm waiting for criticism, we've got a good debate going here!"
To which brother Ahasan Irfan (to whom I convey my salam) repremanded you by saying: 'Is your intention debating or learning?' and you ended up apologising in the following post and saying: "I am here to seek the truth". Then you said (post 43): "I came on this forum to face criticism, and that is what you are providing me with". You came to this forum looking for victims (among those who have a weak faith or little knowledge) in order to lead them from light into darkness, from the way of Allah to the way of Iblis.

You have shown us your true intentions and colours by contradicting yourself:
In post 43 you wrote about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH): "Firstly, I do not need the Christians and Jews to tell me that he is an example for us all", then afew paragraphs later, you could not contain your disrespect for him (PBUH): "Now, according to popular belief, it is said that Muhammad was the perfect one, and that we need to copy him in everything he did to make him an example for us. We shall look at verses 1-14 of chapter 80, which is itself names Surah-e-Abasa (he frowned). For 80:2 though, we shall look at more than just Yusuf Ali’s translation, you shall see when I come to it. Let’s find out what God has to say about Muhammad (PBUH) being perfect…", but then, only a bit later, you went even further in showing us your true feelings: "if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us?".. [clipped]

Then you went back to verse 8:12 and were disturbed by the fact that I said that the word 'daraba' exists in many places in the Holy Qur'an and that it does not always have the same meaning in these places. Therefore we cannot possibly always use the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an. Compare the meaning of this word (in the Arabic version of the Qur'an only) in verse 8:12 with that of verses 14:24, 14:25 and 14:45 (as an example only).
I know that you love arguing endlessly about anything, even if you know that the truth is with the other side, and that you hate losing an argument (remember what you wrote: "but then you might say that I am just copping out"), so if you come back again to this verse, then I will do what Allah (SWT) said (25:63): "and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!" ".

Then you went on to explain the Holy verses that start with certain letters. Anything but backing down. I could not believe my eyes that whilst great scholars such as Ibn Katheer who was an ocean of knowledge started off by saying that specialised tafseer scholars differ as to what these verses mean, you on the other hand explained them. You started off by stating a lot of (and I mean a lot of!) irrelevant scientific facts that have been discovered recently and then went on to bore us all with the usual philosophical nonsense that all Hadith and Sunnah rejectors adopt. Even Yusuf Ali says in Appendix 1: "Opinions are divided as to the exact meaning of each particular letter or combination of letters, and it is agreed that Allah knows their exact meaning". (see Yusuf Ali translation, at the end of Surat Al-Baqarah). You have got some guts!

Back to post 43, and out of the blue and for no relevance at all, you quoted verses 9:97 and 9:101. I will ignore this, unless you were struggling to contain any racial tendencies towards a certain race that our Prophet originates from!. You need help, but not my help.

[I needn’t try to ‘imagine’ myself to be a companion of the prophet (PBUH)]
I dont think you even like or respect the companions. Those great people whom Allah mentions positively in The Qur'an. Those people who have protected the Qur'an and Sunnah (and Hadith) for us.

Then you said: "The Quran is explained in detail"
and I say what a great scholar said when he was told that there are some people who reject Hadith and Sunnah since they say that the Qur'an contains every detail. He said:
"How do these people pray? How many times do they pray each day and night? What are the conditions and details of zakaah? What is the nisaab (threshold of wealth) for paying zakaah? What is the amount that must be paid? How do they do Hajj and ‘Umrah? How many times do they circumambulate the Ka’bah? How many times do they go back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

There are many other issues the details of which are not narrated in the Qur’aan, rather they are mentioned in the Qur’aan in general terms, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained them in detail in his Sunnah.

Would these people refrain from acting upon these rulings because they are not narrated in the Qur’aan?

If their answer is yes, then they have passed judgement against themselves that they are kaafirs, because they have denied a basic principle of Islam that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing and on which there is unanimous consensus among the Muslims.

If they reply that they do not refrain from following these rulings, then they have demonstrated that their view is false".

Then you said...
[Now the point is being put forward that Muhammad (PBUH) was there to explain the Quran. His ONLY job (most clearly seen in Shakir’s translation, where the word ‘Only’ has been exposed, as it is in the arabic) was to made a delivery of the Quran. Have a read of these…]

and you went on to quote some Holy verses, all of which say that our Prophet (PBUH)'s job was to deliver THE MESSAGE, which includes the Qur'an and other revelations. These verses do not say that his job was to deliver THE QUR'AN ALONE!. So READ the verses properly!

Then you quoted verses 68:36-38, and you went on to explain (interpret!) them like this: "Hadith books are truly books which people can extract whatever they want. Again, it is not me saying this, it is God saying this". How dare you! Allah (SWT) describes people who interpret his words as they wish:
4:46 "those who displace words from their (right) places"
5:13 "But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them
5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places"



Then you went on to compare verse 33:21
[Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.]

to verse 60:4
[There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in ABRAHAM AND THOSE WITH HIM, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah]

and you wrote (about verse 33:21):
[So people would say this means that to follow Muhammad’s (PBUH) example, we must copy him in everything he did, and to do that, we are to use hadith books. However, when the whole Quran is read, we see…

and you wrote (about verse 60:4):
[Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false.]

And I say:
You have just shown us that YOU KNOW EVEN LESS THAN WE THOUGHT YOU DID!!! For two reasons:
1) Both prophets (PBUT) were following the same way, and they were both Muslims (The Holy Qur'an tells us this), so yes we follow them both, but.....
2) We follow our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) IN ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING because verse 33:21 does not specify what is to be followed, but verse 60:4 does (when they said to their people) ! GO ON ARGUE ABOUT THIS!![/B].
There are many verses that describe what happens to those who argue against Allah and his Messenger, For example:
[B]8:13 " This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: if any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment".


And then you went on (you are truly full of it!) to tell us that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) should not mean anything special to us because all the prophets are the same. (you quoted verses 2:136, 2:285, 3:84 and 4:152)

And I say: There is a difference between Prophets because Allah (SWT) says so:
2:253 [Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour)].
GO ON KEEP INTERPRETING THE QUR'AN!!


Then you said something amazing! (Is there no end to what you are full of?). You said:
[Now, according to popular belief, it is said that Muhammad was the perfect one, and that we need to copy him in everything he did to make him an example for us]

And I say:
1) You keep listening to your 'popular belief', as for me: I only listen to what Allah and his Prophet said.

2) No Muslim should say that the Prophet (PBUH) is perfect. Allah (SWT) alone is perfect. So who have you been listening to? OR DO YOU JUST ENJOY MAKING PEOPLE SAY WHAT THEY HAVEN'T SAID?


And then you chose to attack our Prophet (PBUH), using that oldest argument of them all: verses 80:3-14, to which the answer is very easy, but I will leave it to another post, Since I have already taken far too long in this one.

You concluded by saying:


And I say:
I don't get offended easily when anything is directed to me, especially when I remember what our Prophet (PBUH) endured at the hand of REJECTORS like yourself.(read about his life (PBUH) and you will find out).
However, you need to be much more polite and humble when you speak about the Best of all creation, The Master of all Prophets, you should not refer to him direspectfully by calling him (Muhammad), you should rather say: Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), or The Prophet (PBUH). Allah (SWT) says in this matter:
[B][Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them. ]

Wassalam
Jamaluddine

P.S. My salam to all the brothers.
Karpaal: good question: [[just wondering, have u read ure fajar namaz 2day? u can talk the talk but can u walk the walk]

[Edited by Mod: No name calling]

alibaba
02-03-2005, 11:50 PM
if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us

The prophet Muhammad was not perfect......that is an attribute of only God and no one else's .....not one person or prophet can claim that statement..........



NO ONE IS PERFECT!!!

monotheist
03-03-2005, 03:53 AM
With God’s name the almighty, the merciful.

***PLEASE READ THIS POST AND CLEAR UP ANY MISUNDERSTANDING*** I ADMIT IT IS LONG BUT IT IS ABOSLUTELY VITAL THIS TIME – May God guide us all to the truth.



Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam

Dear brother Jamaluddine. I am extremely sorry if I have offended you or other forum members in any way, I really do not intend to do as such. It is clear that you believe I am wrong, I respect that, and I appreciate your efforts in showing us all the truth. I have in no way ever intended to say that I ‘know it all’, because I respect the fact that there are elders on this forum who will undoubtedly have lived longer than I have and perhaps have more experience than me, I beg for the forgiveness of anybody I may have unintentionally offended, and I pray to God that he forgives me if I have indeed wronged myself. Brother Jamaluddine, I ask for your forgiveness, because when you weren’t responding, I assumed that you were just letting me carry on. Perhaps I should have waited for you to come back. I am extremely sorry for this, and I mean it from my heart, God bears witness to this.

_____________________________

“this character who calls himself 'Monotheist' is still enjoying his little 'game' of abusing our prophet and thinking that 'he knows it all'.”
_____________________________


May God forgive me if I have abused the prophet (PBUH), as I have in no way ever intended to so, I would never want to transgress against God and his messenger because I fear a shameful retribution. All I have tried my best to do is to appreciate what God tells us in his final message to us. God is witness that I did not play a ‘little game of abusing our prophet’

_____________________________

“I intend to get back to you later and explain 'who these Hadith rejectors really are, and what they believe'.”
_____________________________


God willing you will shed light on this topic, but please don’t class me as a hadith rejecter, I would like to say that I do not reject all hadith, I follow the best hadith, and that is the Quran, as God has told us within it. I have said throughout this thread that I am not here to argue against anyone and say that they are wrong. And I have also said explicitly that I will not say whether anybody is wrong or right, because only God has the infinite knowledge to say that in full truth. I would like to remind the reader of what I said in response to brother mossy: “I search for the truth. If at any point in the discussion I see that my position is wrong, I will declare on this forum that I was indeed wrong, and that hadith books are justified by the Quran.” I hope the reader appreciates my position as somebody who wants to know the truth rather than somebody closed minded and shy of criticism. All I can say is that God is my witness, and if I lie, then he shall punish me.

_____________________________

”You are really full of something, and I don't mean the Qur'an. You talk too much and say hardly anything. This is not intended to insult you; it is a true fact that I will now waste my time trying to explain to you. Please take no offense, just think of it as a frank piece of advice. I must have upset you, because you turned into a flaundering fish gasping for air.
_____________________________


You say that I talk too much and say hardly anything. I would disagree, because as the reader may notice, that my posts have been the ones in this thread which have contained the most verses and I have talked either about those verses or responding to criticism. When I say that I want criticism, perhaps brother Jamaluddine gets the idea that I am here to argue. God is witness that I did no such thing, as the reader may see in my posts in response to ‘Kaarpal Pandit’. Brother Jamaluddine, I will not take offence at what you say to me, because I know you are saying this with the intention of guiding me to what you believe is right. I respect you for that, and for participating in healthy dialogue, I respect your efforts even though at this point in time you may be calling me a ‘flaundering fish gasping for air’, but that doesn’t worry me, because I am sure that after reading this post you will accept that I am not here to mislead anybody (may God punish me to the extremes if I lie in saying this, God bears witness that I mean no harm).

_____________________________

By mistake, you showed us your true colours in post 34 by saying: "Come on people, I'm waiting for criticism, we've got a good debate going here!"
To which brother Ahasan Irfan (to whom I convey my salam) repremanded you by saying: 'Is your intention debating or learning?' and you ended up apologising in the following post and saying: "I am here to seek the truth".
_____________________________


Brother Jamaluddine, it appears you are question my integrity altogether, as I stand today, I see nothing wrong whatsoever in saying what I said in post #34. As a mater of fact I have shown my ‘true colours’ in every post I have put up on this thread. I was asking for criticism to test whether I am right or wrong, as any seeker of truth would do, please don’t see it as some kind of aggressive tactic against all other brothers and sisters on this forum, God bears witness that it wasn’t. Even then when I found that brother Ahsan Irfan did not fully approve of my wording of the post, I apologised to him as a gesture of good will, and what I said (quoting the full sentence) was

[[Brother Ahsan Irfan, I accept my mistake and I apologise, perhaps I should have said ‘discussion’. Its not a debate because we’re all in the same boat to salvation, I just think that I may be on another way there, and I want to see if I’m going about in circles and then getting there or going there direct. Please, I am here to seek the truth, I don’t want to tell anybody that they are wrong and that I am right, because I don’t know that myself, that is why I am participating on this forum. Only God has the ultimate right to say that; we humans have no knowledge compared to the almighty.]]

_____________________________

Then you said (post 43): "I came on this forum to face criticism, and that is what you are providing me with". You came to this forum looking for victims (among those who have a weak faith or little knowledge) in order to lead them from light into darkness, from the way of Allah to the way of Iblis.
_____________________________


Please forgive me brother Jamaluddine for any misunderstanding caused. When I say that I am here to face criticism, I have no intentions of causing conflict, as it perhaps appears to you. All I wanted to do is, (for myself; not to mislead anybody else) to get some points of criticism off people with knowledge so that I can see more clearly whether I am right or wrong in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran. Again, God is my witness that I came to this forum with no false intentions; I cannot prove this to you any other way my friend.

____________________________

You have shown us your true intentions and colours by contradicting yourself:
In post 43 you wrote about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH): "Firstly, I do not need the Christians and Jews to tell me that he is an example for us all", then afew paragraphs later, you could not contain your disrespect for him (PBUH): "Now, according to popular belief, it is said that Muhammad was the perfect one, and that we need to copy him in everything he did to make him an example for us. We shall look at verses 1-14 of chapter 80, which is itself names Surah-e-Abasa (he frowned). For 80:2 though, we shall look at more than just Yusuf Ali’s translation, you shall see when I come to it. Let’s find out what God has to say about Muhammad (PBUH) being perfect…", but then, only a bit later, you went even further in showing us your true feelings: "if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us?"..You are truly full of something, you just don't know it, your head is so big that you cannot see it. (Please don't take offense, it's true!).
____________________________


Again I will not take offence, because you obviously don’t mean it. I respect that. However there is this misunderstanding that I have contradicted myself. Please allow me to explain. The way I see it at this moment in time (may God forgive me and show me the right way if I am wrong), Muhammad (PBUH) is an example for us, without a doubt, God says that himself. But what I do not agree with is the notion that Muhammad (PBUH) didn’t make any mistakes, because these are there in the Quran, namely 80:1-14, which I quoted in the post in question. Brother Jamaluddine, you have said:

||||“but then, only a bit later, you went even further in showing us your true feelings: "if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us?"..”||||

I will stand firm against this accusation, when looked at in the context of my post, the reader will find that I actually said this:

|||| Now it could be said that if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us? The simple answer to that is that we learn from our own mistakes, and we also learn from other’s mistakes (Social learning theory). We learn from the Quran that he is a monotheist, so we follow his example by being monotheists, and when he makes a mistake, we learn from his example, and try not to make that mistake, in this case, we are to respect those with disabilities.|||||

It will be clear to all brothers and sisters that brother Jamaluddine has quoted my words entirely out of context. When what I said is read, it is clear that I maintained wholeheartedly the fact that Muhammad (PBUH) is an example for us, but I also took into consideration the fact that in his message God highlights several mistakes that the prophet made, which I had previously highlighted an example of being 80:1-14. All I was saying in this was that Muhammad (PBUH) being an example for us doesn’t mean we copy him exactly, because then we would be making his mistakes as detailed in the Quran. I was in fact saying that he is an example for us in being a monotheist and that we can learn from his example and the narrated incident with the blind man that we should give respect to the disabled. In saying this I may sound controversial, but God is witness that my intentions are clear and I was only trying to express my view, which I think is more inline with the whole of the Quran, I.e. there is no doubt that Muhammad made mistakes because they are detailed in the Quran, and the Quran doesn’t say anywhere that he was perfect. If I am wrong in saying this then may God forgive me, and I would ask brother Jamaluddine to clarify the issue for us all, so that we may all benefit from understanding the Quran better. Please accept my humble request to you; I ask for help from you, I have never intended to go against you, the impression you may hold at the moment, but please give me a chance, I will God wiling show you otherwise.

_______________

You are truly full of something, you just don't know it, your head is so big that you cannot see it. (Please don't take offence, it's true!).
_______________


I will forgive you and not take offence at this brother Jamaluddine, because I understand what is making you say this. I have abstained from saying that I am right and everything else is wrong, because that would be pure arrogance. In fact I have constantly asked to be criticised so that I may see the truth if I am misled.

_______________

Then you went back to verse 8:12 and were disturbed by the fact that I said that the word 'daraba' exists in many places in the Holy Qur'an and that it does not always have the same meaning in these places. Therefore we cannot possibly always use the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an. Compare the meaning of this word (in the Arabic version of the Qur'an only) in verse 8:12 with that of verses 14:24, 14:25 and 14:45 (as an example only).
_______________


My brother Jamaluddine, I was not disturbed by this because I knew they existed, but the quranic context of the other verses which contain this word show clearly what the appropriate eaming should be, even if you say that it appears in other verses in the Quran and the meaning is not purely the same in the Quran, the context of the verse itself can be use to its full potential to give definition to the word. We shall God willing go on to discuss this if you accept that I wish to seek the truth and I will not shy away from being proven wrong. May God guide us all to the truth.

___________________

I know that you love arguing endlessly about anything, even if you know that the truth is with the other side, and that you hate losing an argument (remember what you wrote: "but then you might say that I am just copping out"), so if you come back again to this verse, then I will do what Allah (SWT) said (25:63): "and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!" ".
___________________


Please don’t take offence my friend, but (25:63) applies very well to the situation we’re in right now, you having even done things like quote me wildly out of context, call me a fish, big headed... But I have forgiven you and not taken any offence, with the anticipation that we can continue this ‘peaceful’ discussion as I wish to do, if God wills.

___________________

Then you went on to explain the Holy verses that start with certain letters. Anything but backing down. I could not believe my eyes that whilst great scholars such as Ibn Katheer who was an ocean of knowledge started off by saying that specialised tafseer scholars differ as to what these verses mean, you on the other hand explained them. You started off by stating a lot of (and I mean a lot of!) irrelevant scientific facts that have been discovered recently and then went on to bore us all with the usual philosophical nonsense that all Hadith and Sunnah rejectors adopt. Even Yusuf Ali says in Appendix 1: "Opinions are divided as to the exact meaning of each particular letter or combination of letters, and it is agreed that Allah knows their exact meaning". (see Yusuf Ali translation, at the end of Surat Al-Baqarah). You have got some guts!
__________________


Perhaps the nature of my response to your ‘challenge’ as you put it seems controversial to the reader, but I still maintain the fact that I mentioned those verses with scientific relevance for a reason. I never intended to endorse anybody else’s wild theories, but I put it simply to the reader that we can have a decent understanding of the initials as God’s signature of the Quran, and that with God’s subsequent revealing of knowledge to the world things in the Quran have undoubtedly been given a whole new meaning, which shows the world that the Quran is indeed from God. I have not made any act of transgression in doing this. I understand that brother Jamaluddine does not approve of mathematical things to do with the Quran to give false proof for a blasphemer’s claim of messengership. I am with Jamaluddine on this; however, I have opted to do my own independent research into the so-called miracle so as to verify it for myself. The reader will see that I never said that I believed in code 19. I only said that I would independently verify it myself, in which there is no harm. This itself shows signs of my open mindedness. I hope brother Jamaluddine now understands what I was saying. And as far as me having guts goes, I believe that a ‘challenge’ had been issued, and to meet that challenge, I never said that take this, this is it, I basically showed that it is understandable without hadeeth books external to the Quran.

_______________

Back to post 43, and out of the blue and for no relevance at all, you quoted verses 9:97 and 9:101. I will ignore this, unless you were struggling to contain any racial tendencies towards a certain race that our Prophet originates from!. You need help, but not my help.
___________________


My words were as follows:

|||| I greatly dislike it when somebody says that the Quran and its meanings and ‘hidden meanings’ are only accessible to proficient Arabic speakers. This is most certainly not true. Gods did not reveal the final message just for Arab’s, and his religion is not just for Arabs, it is for everybody. In fact the Quran says something about Arab’s that should not be overlooked (I am not saying this myself, God is)…

9:97 - The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

9:101 - Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

I am as a result critical of people who say that we need to be Arabic. There is no justification of that whatsoever in the Quran. And when you say that they were accessible only to those who were present and that time, this is even more displeasing to me, because as I have highlighted on numerous occasions, God explains his revelations to those who know of him and not just the Arab speaking people around the prophet (PBUH) when he was alive. So it is clear that we should seek God’s help by (as prescribed in 20:114) saying robbi zidni ilmaa, and not just turning to other books, I don’t think we should underestimate God’s power when he says that he himself will explain his revelation.||||

It will be clear to the reader that I was not intending to stir up racial hatred. May god protect me from doing such a vile illogical and unjust act. I was careful when I quoted these verses, hence when I said ‘(I am not saying this myself, God is)…’ Now I see no harm in quoting from Gods words, for they are the greatest truths of the Earth. In no way did I say that don’t I trust/believe any Arab’s because of these verses, I was simply expressing my displeasure when I was told that the Quran was only accessible to the Arab’s and that non-Arabs have no right to question anything. My friend, language is not a barrier for the believers. I was in fact promoting racial equality in terms of access to the Quran, and the basic rights of being able to question religious authorities on basis of God’s words. Please forgive me, but there is no harm doing that. Like I said, with your permission we shall discuss these issues later, one step at a time, so even if you prove me wrong, all brothers and sisters on this forum see the truth, rather than just your opinion or my opinion.

____________________

[I needn’t try to ‘imagine’ myself to be a companion of the prophet (PBUH)]
I dont think you even like or respect the companions. Those great people whom Allah mentions positively in The Qur'an. Those people who have protected the Qur'an and Sunnah (and Hadith) for us.
____________________


Once again I have been unjustly quoted out of context. My words were as follows:

|||| Firstly, I needn’t try to ‘imagine’ myself to be a companion of the prophet (PBUH), because I obviously am not. As I have stated before, this Quran is not just for Arab’s who were with the prophet (PBUH) when he was a live, and he did not leave us to work out which hadith’s to believe when he has given us a fully detailed Quran.||||

In saying this I have not given any disrespect whatsoever to the companions of the prophet (PBUH). In fact I was bringing attention to the point when God says I the Quran that it is ‘fully detailed’. I have done nothing to give disrespect to anybody at all in this. I ask for brother Jamaluddine’s forgiveness for any misunderstanding he may have, but it is clear that I didn’t mean it at all the way he understood me.

____________________

Then you said: "The Quran is explained in detail"
and I say what a great scholar said when he was told that there are some people who reject Hadith and Sunnah since they say that the Qur'an contains every detail. He said:
"How do these people pray? How many times do they pray each day and night? What are the conditions and details of zakaah? What is the nisaab (threshold of wealth) for paying zakaah? What is the amount that must be paid? How do they do Hajj and ‘Umrah? How many times do they circumambulate the Ka’bah? How many times do they go back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

There are many other issues the details of which are not narrated in the Qur’aan, rather they are mentioned in the Qur’aan in general terms, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained them in detail in his Sunnah.

Would these people refrain from acting upon these rulings because they are not narrated in the Qur’aan?

If their answer is yes, then they have passed judgement against themselves that they are kaafirs, because they have denied a basic principle of Islam that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing and on which there is unanimous consensus among the Muslims.

If they reply that they do not refrain from following these rulings, then they have demonstrated that their view is false".

_______________________

[Then you said: "The Quran is explained in detail"
and I say what a great scholar said…]

The different views myself and Jamaluddine are over the fact that I like to go to the Quran for guidance, rather than be quick to turn to a ‘scholar’, people whom I have great respect for, but I hold God as my judge as use his words for guidance as a pose to a scholar. What I must say is that I had a very hard time in attempting to find out what the truth is about hadith books. I don’t want to get any sympathy votes as such but I would like to say that I am only a college student, and I never said that I have supreme knowledge or anything like that. Over the past few months I have personally given up a lot for my search for the truth. Even though I have exams looming I have spent whole nights researching the Quran making endless lists of verses to check up with dozens of translations, learning quranic Arabic, reading criticism of people who reject hadith books external to the Quran, evaluating my position constantly, weeping whole nights asking God to have mercy on me in case I have been misled, asking him to convince me with the truth. As you can imagine it is a bit disheartening when you go to somebody for help, and they accuse you of attempting to mislead. Perhaps it is because of these nights I spend writing these ‘long’ posts in search for the truth, hoping that somebody would give criticism so that I can adjust myself to the truth, brother Jamaluddine got the idea that I’m this super evil character who wants to mislead others. I want to find out myself whether I have been misled or not. I hope he understands that I am only rejecting hadith books external to the Quran because God says so in the Quran, if he can prove me wrong, then I will happily go back to hadith books, but as some readers with the intention to seek the truth may find, the Quran really does not give justification, as I will God willing demonstrate if brother Jamaluddine gives permission to carry this discussion on. In my very first post I said clearly that I want to be proven wrong or right if in the course of the truth. Now I am being accused of misleading others. All I can say is that God will not falter with his justice when the time comes. I am greatly disappointed by what brother Jamaluddine has just said.

The argument people put across (as this scholar in particular has put across) is that all these details are not in the Quran, so we can disregard the verses that say that the Quran is fully detailed and complete, contains all examples has nothing left out of it, and it explains everything we need. The approach I take is that I BELIEVE IN GOD, and I also BELIEVE GOD. He does not lie, and there is no other way to go around verse that says that the Quran is fully detailed. I would rather believe God than blindly follow what I have been brought up to believe. It is simply a question of finding out exactly what details are in the Quran, not trying to find specific details in the Quran which are non-existent. Insha-allah when Jamaluddine allows this discussion to continue we shall discuss exactly what these details are, but only once it has been established whether following hadith books external to the Quran is justified by God. For example, where is the sheep that was put in place of Abraham in the sacrifice story? Why is this not mentioned in the Quran? Isha-allah I will shed light on this if given the chance by God. I would like to quote a verse here at this point:

9:31
They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

monotheist
03-03-2005, 03:54 AM
________________________

Then you said...
[Now the point is being put forward that Muhammad (PBUH) was there to explain the Quran. His ONLY job (most clearly seen in Shakir’s translation, where the word ‘Only’ has been exposed, as it is in the arabic) was to made a delivery of the Quran. Have a read of these…]

and you went on to quote some Holy verses, all of which say that our Prophet (PBUH)'s job was to deliver THE MESSAGE, which includes the Qur'an and other revelations. These verses do not say that his job was to deliver THE QUR'AN ALONE!. So READ the verses properly!
________________________


I stand firm on this point. The Quran (Which is not actually a name for the book, it literally means ‘reading’) is the message that was delivered. These sayings that are attributed to the prophet (PBUH), or even his true sayings are not part of that message. They are commonly justified as explanations of that message from God, which God condemns here, because he is only to deliver the message, not to explain it. Besides, the prophet (PBUH) was ‘ummy’ (as brother Jamaluddine would agree is illiterate). So it is totally unjust for me to be accused of not reading the verses properly.

_____________________

Then you quoted verses 68:36-38, and you went on to explain (interpret!) them like this: "Hadith books are truly books which people can extract whatever they want. Again, it is not me saying this, it is God saying this".
____________________


If brother Jamaluddine is so sure that I have ‘interpreted’ that verse and not ‘understood’ them, then I would like to direct him to the following verse which God willing we shall discuss later, when this atmosphere of conflict is over:

31:6
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

______________________

How dare you! Allah (SWT) describes people who interpret his words as they wish:
4:46 "those who displace words from their (right) places"
5:13 "But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them
5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into Unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places"
_____________________


Brother Jamaluddine has already violated 4:46 and 5:13 by trying to prove a point by taking three unrelated verses from different places in the Quran and listing them together. And he is working against God’s statements all over the Quran that it is fully detailed and complete. Again, it is a matter of BELIEVING GOD as well as BELIEVING IN GOD. I have given the true way to obey the messenger as God commands, already in my previous posts, and I am sure that there will be brothers and sisters out there who see clearly that what Muhammad (PBUH) said is preserved in the Quran, and that we don’t need to go to hadith’s external to the Quran to find out what people have narrated about him, and try to use subjective judgement as to which hadiths to believe and which to disregard as false injections.

_______________________

Then you went on to compare verse 33:21
[Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.]

to verse 60:4
[There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in ABRAHAM AND THOSE WITH HIM, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah]

and you wrote (about verse 33:21):
[So people would say this means that to follow Muhammad’s (PBUH) example, we must copy him in everything he did, and to do that, we are to use hadith books. However, when the whole Quran is read, we see…

and you wrote (about verse 60:4):
[Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false.]
________________________


Once again brother Jamaluddine has quoted me out of context to suit his purposes, and he has deliberately manipulated the punctuation at the end of what he has quoted, he has turned a comma into a full stop. My words were as follows:

|||| Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false, he was an excellent example, as was Muhammad (PBUH), and as you stated earlier, God would never tell us to do anything without given us the means to do it. This applies in this case as well. The way we follow their examples is that they were both monotheistic. They believed in the existence of the only one true God, his revelations, the angels, his books, all the beliefs they had as detailed in the Quran.||||

Please brother Jamaluddine; you mustn’t corrupt my words to suit your purposes. You thought you might get away with turning that comma into a full stop, to change the whole meaning of what I said. I believe it must be clear to all brothers and sisters who have just read this that Jamaluddine has consistently tried to frame me by quoting my words out of context and manipulating them to suit his purpose, thinking nobody would notice. But I forgive him, because I want this atmosphere of conflict to recede, so that we can engage in healthy discussion again. All I wanted to do is ask you for your help. I mean to no harm to you my friend.

________________

And I say:
You have just shown us that YOU KNOW EVEN LESS THAN WE THOUGHT YOU DID!!! For two reasons:
1) Both prophets (PBUT) were following the same way, and they were both Muslims (The Holy Qur'an tells us this), so yes we follow them both, but.....
2) We follow our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) IN ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING because verse 33:21 does not specify what is to be followed, but verse 60:4 does (when they said to their people) ! GO ON ARGUE ABOUT THIS!![/B].
__________________


So if we are to follow Muhammad (PBUH) in ‘absolutely everything as you put it’, then I presume that you won’t learn from Muhammad’s (PBUH) mistake of ignoring the blind man as detailed in 80:1-14. We shall God willing discuss this later when we are friends again.

__________________

And then you went on (you are truly full of it!) to tell us that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) should not mean anything special to us because all the prophets are the same. (you quoted verses 2:136, 2:285, 3:84 and 4:152)

And I say: There is a difference between Prophets because Allah (SWT) says so:
2:253 [Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour)].
GO ON KEEP INTERPRETING THE QUR'AN!!
___________________


I really don’t like criticising our brother Jamaluddine for small things like this but, 2:23 says nowhere that Muhammad (PBUH) was higher in status than any other prophets. Taking Jesus for example, he was strengthened with the ‘holy spirit’ (2:87), whereas Muhammad (PBUH) wasn’t. I am not intending to give disrespect to the final prophet, but I am stating simple facts from the Quran. And even then you disregarded all the verses which command us not to make distinction between the messengers.

2:285
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "WE MAKE NO DISTINCTION (THEY SAY) BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER OF HIS MESSENGERS." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

___________________

[Now, according to popular belief, it is said that Muhammad was the perfect one, and that we need to copy him in everything he did to make him an example for us]

And I say:
1) You keep listening to your 'popular belief', as for me: I only listen to what Allah and his Prophet said.

2) No Muslim should say that the Prophet (PBUH) is perfect. Allah (SWT) alone is perfect. So who have you been listening to? OR DO YOU JUST ENJOY MAKING PEOPLE SAY WHAT THEY HAVEN'T SAID?

And then you chose to attack our Prophet (PBUH), using that oldest argument of them all: verses 80:3-14, to which the answer is very easy, but I will leave it to another post, Since I have already taken far too long in this one.
___________________


You said: [No Muslim should say that the Prophet (PBUH) is perfect] You clearly aren’t very informed of your surroundings are you? Tell me why you don’t believe in 80:1-14? (Calling it an old argument will not dumb it down I’m afraid). And several other parts of the Quran which show clearly that he wasn’t perfect. In your rejection of these verses you want to believe that he was perfect to justify hadith books and the ‘sunnah’ attributed to the prophet (PBUH). I look forward to discussing these verses with you.


___________________


You concluded by saying:
[Brother Jalaluddine: If I have said anything which was not nice then please forgive me my friend. I am very pleased that you have helped increase my understanding of the Quran by making me face criticism, and I am very grateful to the lord for sending you to do this for me. May God grant you paradise (and me as well, can’t forget myself now can I!).]

And I say:
I don't get offended easily when anything is directed to me, especially when I remember what our Prophet (PBUH) endured at the hand of REJECTORS like yourself.(read about his life (PBUH) and you will find out).
However, you need to be much more polite and humble when you speak about the Best of all creation, The Master of all Prophets, you should not refer to him direspectfully by calling him (Muhammad), you should rather say: Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), or The Prophet (PBUH). Allah (SWT) says in this matter:
____________________


I have done my homework my friend, and I tend to find a multitude of different descriptions of Muhammad, the more hadith I go through. I concluded my post by saying something ‘nice’ to reduce the friction so that I can discuss the issue with you, but you answered by calling me a ‘rejector’. All I can say that God is witness over all things. Perhaps you could be a bit more considerate with somebody who comes to seek the truth. I will state again now, if I find that I am wrong in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran, I will publicly declare this in a fresh thread on this website, I am not afraid of facing the truth. I came to you seeking help, and then you gave me abuse like this, for that I forgive you, and I would request that we put aside any differences between the two of us so that we can seek the truth together, until we both come to the same conclusion. And believe me; if I have gone out of my way to disown Sunnism, then it will be just as easy for me to go back if I feel that I have left the truth. I would expect you to think likewise.

____________________

However, you need to be much more polite and humble when you speak about the Best of all creation, The Master of all Prophets, you should not refer to him direspectfully by calling him (Muhammad), you should rather say: Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), or The Prophet (PBUH).
_____________________


I do apologise for the mistakes I have made in my posts, but I have not done this with the intention of disrespect to our beloved prophet (PBUH). It may just be that I do all this typing during the night when I’m supposed to be asleep or getting ready for my exams, so I occasionally miss it out by accident, and if not it is entirely down to human error. I will try my level best not to do this in future. Thanks for bringing this point up.
____________________


I don’t want this type of personal conflict to get in the way of the search for the truth. As of now, we shall establish a student/teacher relationship, where I will treat you as my teacher because you are older and more experienced than me, but you must be open to criticism (this doesn’t mean I’m going to fight you, I will only raise points that may need more discussing). I invite you to friendship, because these petty arguments won’t get either of us anywhere, whether you still consider me a believer or not, I make a humble request to you that you carry this discussion on with me, for our benefit and the benefit of the brothers and sisters who are reading this thread. You will God willing find me open minded and ready to face questions. Let’s make a fresh start, God willing we will both come to the same conclusion. I forgive you for the things that displeased me, and I ask for your forgiveness for anything I may have done that displeased you. Who knows, we might end up as good friends at the end

Peace to all brothers and Sisters
Monotheist.

Adam
03-03-2005, 09:30 PM
Dear Brother Monotheist,
The Peace, Mercy and Blessings of the One and only upon you and yours.

I don’t have much time so I will begin by apologising for intruding in to this complex and entangled debate with this message.

Brother, I for one don’t think that you have come here with ulterior motives. I don’t think you are here to propagate an inauthentic position. I believe it to be quite possible that you have the best of intentions and that you are a sincere seeker of Haqq.

Having said that, I completely and utterly disagree with you. As much as I sympathise with your concern for following the command of your Lord, I find the vast majority of your points to be entirely untenable – methodologically, theologically and spiritually defunct. Instead of providing a traditional response – which many of the Brothers and Sisters on this forum will be able to do – I have to keep within the limits of my ability and instead I would like for a minute to think a little bit outside the box of the established orthopraxy within Islam.

When we are unaware of our basic cosmological setup we often tend to confuse impulses from the lowest aspect in us with those of the highest. Unless we are succinctly aware of what the faculties and entities of Aql, Qalb and Ruh are and how they interact with our Nafs, we are completely at the “mercy” of the lowest aspect in us. How can we say that our heart tells us something? How do we know that it is not whims and fancies of the Commanding Nafs? What is the condition of your heart – how pure is it so that light can reflect through it? Anybody who does not study the nature of the Nafs is its ignorant slave – and such ignorance manifests itself as lowly and despicable behaviour bereft of Adab, Sulook and Ikhlas. What is inside manifests in to the outer – the sphere of organised religion and theology is no exemption to this. Many, many so-called religious human beings misguide themselves by the ignorance and arrogance they permit themselves. May Allah guide us and cover us all…

It is a known and common reaction of the so-called Inspired Nafs to draw in to question the validity/necessity of the entire Hadith corpus when stumbling upon some perceived objectionable practice or another of the people professing to be Muslims. It is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater; getting rid of one half of the Prophetic message, wisdom and guidance calls for some serious deliberation to put it mildly… Here are three sets of questions (of increasing complexity) I would ask myself before doing so:

a) You say that you are a Hanafi. What does that mean to you? And what is the methodology of Hanafi jurisprudence in terms of proof-texts? What has been the position of Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A.) and the hundreds of thousands of teachers in this lineage on the topic of Hadiths? Does it make any sense to be a Hanafi Muqallid who does not accept Hadith? What is your basis for your Ibadah or Muamalah if you discount the Sunnah?

b) The Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the best of creation. What does that mean – beyond rhetoric and beyond an honorary title? And what does it mean to be the “Walking Quran”? Reflect on it for a minute. Is it possible that he (S.A.W.) was not only chosen to deliver the message to humankind, but also chosen to demonstrate the balanced and enlightened way of life that is called to in the Quran? Who better to apply and live the teachings of the Quran than the one unto whom it was revealed? How can we heed the call if we do not heed the caller? And how can we disregard the optimal operationalisation of the Divine message and still claim to love or respect our Source (S.W.T.) or Master (S.A.W.)?

c) People who are cut off from realised guides and sages often understand Tawhid as “monotheism” and not “unity” or “oneness”. From the blessed Sahaba (R.A.) and through unbroken chains and lineages of scholars integrating inner and outer sciences, we receive by living transmission our Deen and way of life. Not from books and not by speculation. The Prophet (S.A.W.) spoke of Tariqa, Sharia and Haqiqa – without this integration of action & method with code & path in addition to reality & meaning our Deen becomes hollow, ceremonial dogma. The Quran is Allah’s eternal speech from beyond time, made manifest and demonstrated in time by the Prophet (S.A.W.) without which all of our practice would be utterly impossible. The Deen is about the complementarity and ultimate oneness of Sharia and Haqiqa – both of which are unimaginable without the examples and applications and states of the Prophet (S.A.W.) Why is it that rejection of Hadith is the prerogative of those thinkers who have no lineage, no Ijazah, no Idhn and no Suhba of our Masters? If transmission lies in living practice and Amal, how can we get by without the Sunnah?

You say you are open-minded so I invite you to meditate on the above questions with an open mind. I don’t expect an answer from you because I am not interested in or qualified to debate. I am interested in what is real. You sound as if you are part curious, part confused, part hurt and also – crucially – somewhere behind it all searching for Haqq. Unless you are willing to question your assumptions and check your approach and attitude I don’t think your state is about to change.

Brother Jamaluddine has been strict with you because he is sensitive about the Prophet (S.A.W.) which ultimately is not a question of Salawat but of foundational Adab. Adab is not about etiquette but it is paradigmatic and ontological – it is meaningless to ask you to love and respect the Prophet and the Sunna if it is alien to who you are and where you are. To use that favourite female argument of mine… “If you don’t get it then I don’t know how to explain it to you.” I might not – but anybody who has even a foundational grasp of this Deen can. Go find a proper teacher and beg him/her to let you sit at his/her feet for a while...


Salaam,
Adam

monotheist
03-03-2005, 11:38 PM
Peace brother Adam

I am extremely grateful to you for your kind words, so I know now at least one person understands me. I absolutely love how you accept my position and still disagree; you have just demonstrated that this is possible!


________________________

a) You say that you are a Hanafi. What does that mean to you? And what is the methodology of Hanafi jurisprudence in terms of proof-texts? What has been the position of Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A.) and the hundreds of thousands of teachers in this lineage on the topic of Hadiths? Does it make any sense to be a Hanafi Muqallid who does not accept Hadith? What is your basis for your Ibadah or Muamalah if you discount the Sunnah?
________________________



Perhaps I made a mistake when I was registering. I thought that I might offend people by getting on this website and saying that I don’t follow a maddhab without even starting to discuss rejection of hadith books external to the Quran. After all, this is a Sunni website, and I have no right to charge in with controversy, because I am not a Sunni. I promised that I would only participate in this thread unless I was convinced that Sunnism is the way. I will now take this opportunity to change my profile accordingly. I just didn’t want to offend anybody by walking on and saying that I don’t follow a maddhab. I just wanted to get on this thread and get some criticism.


________________________

b) The Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the best of creation. What does that mean – beyond rhetoric and beyond an honorary title? And what does it mean to be the “Walking Quran”? Reflect on it for a minute. Is it possible that he (S.A.W.) was not only chosen to deliver the message to humankind, but also chosen to demonstrate the balanced and enlightened way of life that is called to in the Quran? Who better to apply and live the teachings of the Quran than the one unto whom it was revealed? How can we heed the call if we do not heed the caller? And how can we disregard the optimal operationalisation of the Divine message and still claim to love or respect our Source (S.W.T.) or Master (S.A.W.)?
________________________



It doesn’t say anywhere in the Quran that Muhammad (PBUH) was the ‘best of creation’, but he was undoubtedly as commonly accepted the ‘Walking Quran’, which basically means that he delivered the Quran to whomever he could. And according to 13:40, 16:35, 16:82, 24:54, 29:18, 36:17, 42:48, 64:12, he was “only chosen to deliver the message to humankind” and not necessarily “to demonstrate the balanced and enlightened way of life that is called to in the Quran” I personally think that we don’t need a narration based record of who he was how he lived life, because he lived his life according the Quran, so that should be enough guidance for us all. And that is the message we have been given to live our own lives. All the examples we need are given to us within the Quran (39:27).


________________________

From the blessed Sahaba (R.A.) and through unbroken chains and lineages of scholars integrating inner and outer sciences, we receive by living transmission our Deen and way of life.
________________________



9:31
They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

17:36
And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

There are among the verses that push me to carry on.


________________________

I am not interested in or qualified to debate.
________________________



I understand it if you are not interested in debating, but I stand totally against this idea that we need to be ‘qualified’ to debate. We all have access to the Quran, we all have access to hadith books, we can all learn Qu’ranic Arabic, and we all have access to anything else we could say we need, because Islam has been made easy for us. I really dislike this notion that Islam is just for an advanced set of people and the rest of us should just follow our parents blindly or choose which ones of our ‘scholars’ to believe and tag along with them. Judging your manner of speech I would say you have great potential in contributing to this discussion, please feel free brother, your views would be well welcome.


_______________________

Go find a proper teacher and beg him/her to let you sit at his/her feet for a while...
_______________________



I’ve gone out of my way to go and talk to people about this, but I don’t understand why their attention doesn’t last very long, no matter how desperate I appear to them or how much begging I do. I basically get the ‘disbeliever’ or ‘permanently misled’ comment back from them and that’s it. There are not many people out there who can be bothered to give or take criticism, which I believe is the way forward to seek the truth. And I must make it clear that I only go to people with knowledge to increase my own knowledge, asking for guidance in the cause of God, whilst giving them all due respect, but not to beg them to let me sit at their feet for a while, because I don’t want to be of those described in 9:31.

Peace brother Adam.

Monotheist.

alibaba
04-03-2005, 12:28 AM
salaam
just a quick intrusion to this heated debate wondering if this one has been discussed in your loooooooooooong posts..

Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Quran) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Quran) and the Hikmah (i.e. sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.
Chapter #2, Verse #151

I wonder... if God has already sent the book "teaching you the book(Quran)" then what is meant by the word Hikmah?......
What people accept is the word Hikmah referred to what the prophet taught, extrapolated...etc.....which is found in the ahadith....

alibaba
04-03-2005, 12:38 AM
as well....
I mean the word Hikmah is very general and has been used in many places in the Quran but it can be clearly seen from this verse that ....God has given the Quran.......to the people and the Hikmah has been given to the prophet which he conveyed....and it was separate from the Quran.....so where would one have access to the wisdom and the sunnah of the Prophet other than the hadith?

Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Quran), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Quran) and Alhikmah (the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW (i.e. his legal ways, statements, acts of worship, etc.)), while before that they had been in manifest error.
Chapter #3, Verse #164

Aamir Khan
04-03-2005, 02:27 PM
Hello

I am the boxer Aamir Khan from Bolton. Monotheist are you feeling okay?

I am olympic silver medalist and am ready to battle you with words, not fists you obviously have no chance against me. You reject the hadith why?

Yes you have mentioned many great arguments.

Okay the QURAN is the most important thing in the word but there is no sin in looking at the Hadith. Are you telling me all the hadith are wrong?

You are trying to change the face of islam. I have heard of people like you. There is that Rashid Khalifa fellow who was possessed by the Devil. Are you one of his followers. Please tell me you are not?

NO ONE ON THIS FORUM IS HERE TO JUDGE YOU. GOD WILL JUDGE YOU IN DUE TIME.

Aamir Khan
04-03-2005, 02:37 PM
I have seen in my life that we Sunnis are being punished for the bad things we have done. We are becoming extremists. We are being killed because we have been bad people.

I have noticed on this forum that you people like to judge montheist. Who are you to judge him. God will judge him. I can clearly see you people are trying to attack him. I only posted a reply to him a few minutes ago, however felt guilty in joining in with your evil practices. Dont you see what is going on in the world the Saudi arabians are corupt and ruining the reputation of islam.

You will probably remove this post because you people cannot take the pressure. There are christians who are better than some sunni muslims I have seen that. There are many christians who have done good for mankind and God will reward them for that.

Monotheist don't take my first reply too harshly. I was too quick to jump toi conclusions.

Even though I don't agree with you ridiculous beliefs, I still respect you.

GOD IS THE GREATEST

monotheist
04-03-2005, 11:20 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters.

I am reluctant to get back on and make a contribution as yet because brother Jamaluddine might be angry with me again for not waiting for him to come back. I don’t want to waste time in a personality clash again, so all I want to do in this post is respond to brothers alibaba and Amir Khan, whilst trying not to make a point that brother Jamaluddine may find offensive. If I do, then may God forgive me and show me the right way.

To brother alibaba:
I myself am surprised that nobody came up with these verses earlier in this thread! God willing I will spend some time gathering (and then compressing!) my views on these verses until brother Jamaluddine comes back. Many thanks for your invaluable contribution.

To brother Amir Khan:

- “Okay the QURAN is the most important thing in the word but there is no sin in looking at the Hadith. Are you telling me all the hadith are wrong?”

As I said earlier… “what is making me think like this is that God tells us in the magnificent Quran that it is fully detailed and complete, and this is the main thing that makes me stop and think about hadith. What I do not approve of in the least is people who pull out some unreliable hadiths and state that they are wrong, and that we should get rid of all hadith books. This is nothing more than ignorance my friends. All I am trying to do is seek the truth in justification of hadith books, using God as my judge.”

- “I only posted a reply to him a few minutes ago, however felt guilty in joining in with your evil practices.”

My friend Amir Khan, you don’t need to feel guilty, everyone is entitled to their own opinion; it’s just a matter of wording your opinion in a just manner, and your post put a smile on my face anyway (Can I have your autograph? I’m a fan...)

- “Dont you see what is going on in the world the Saudi arabians are corupt and ruining the reputation of islam.”

God has made clear statements on this brother Amir Khan. Examples of which I highlighted earlier (namely 9:97 and 9:101).

- “There are many christians who have done good for mankind and God will reward them for that.”

God backs you up my friend, (5:69 and 2:62).

- “Even though I don't agree with you ridiculous beliefs, I still respect you.”

Thanks for demonstrating how this is possible, as did brother Adam a few posts earlier; I respect both of you for being considerate individuals.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
05-03-2005, 08:30 AM
Assalamu alaikum to all brothers,

There are so many things to say that I do not know where to start from... and the frustrating thing about this is that I am not qualified enough and do not have enough knowledge to answer some ideas that I know are wrong. May The All-Knowing (SWT) increase our knowledge all.

Please brothers and sisters accept my 'directness' and 'frankness' because some of the ideas that are dealt with in this forum are potentially 'dangerous' to somebody who has a weak faith (and that is what most of us have). Therefore some of these ideas need replying to as a matter of urgency!

Post 60:
[ “There are many christians who have done good for mankind and God will reward them for that.”

God backs you up my friend, (5:69 and 2:62).]

Allah does not back you up on this! (With all my sincere respect to the two brothers).
We must be careful saying things like this, especially that many of our young and easily misled muslim brothers have opted to turn to Christianity because of these very ideas. Allah (SWT) gives us a brilliant example in the Qur'an and tells us that non-muslims who do good deeds in this life (but those deeds are missing some important conditions, such as belief in Allah and all of his prophets and performing everything that Islam asks them to perform), these people will come on the Day of Judgement with these deeds but will count for nothing at all, exactly as if you expose a handful of ash and dust on a very windy day, will there be any of it left?

Allah (SWT) says in this matter:
14:18 "The parable of those who reject their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a tempestuous day: no power have they over aught that they have earned: that is the straying far, far (from the goal)."

25:23 "And We shall turn to whatever deeds they did (in this life), and We shall make such deeds as floating dust scattered about."

3:117 " What they spend in the life of this (material) world may be likened to a wind Which brings a nipping frost: it strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls; it is not Allah that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves."

I personally have good Christian friends (as well as other faiths), and it absolutely tears me apart to think that they will blame me on the Day of Judgement for not warning them enough. May Allah have mercy on us!


Back to post 60:
[“Dont you see what is going on in the world the Saudi arabians are corupt and ruining the reputation of islam.”

God has made clear statements on this brother Amir Khan. Examples of which I highlighted earlier (namely 9:97 and 9:101).]

To save time and space, I will only say this:
People in Saudi Arabia are like any other Muslim peoples around the world; they range from those who fight against islam with everything they have, to those who all they have from islam is their name, to those who spend all night, every night doing prayers and reading the Qur'an, while most of us are enjoying a good sleep.
Verses 9:97 and 9:101 refer to certain tribes of Desert Arabs who lived at the time of The Messenger (PBUH). To say that this refers to ALL Arabs of ALL times is HARAM, because this includes The Prophet (PBUH) and the Companions (ABPWT) ....etc. (Read Tafseer books: Ibn Katheer, Al-Jalalain, Al-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi, ...etc).

However...

Let us not get into 'politics' and forget about the original subject of this forum: Hadith and Sunnah Rejectors.

There are people amongst us who do not believe in doing 5 prayers a day, They do not believe in perfoming prayers like the other billion Muslims around the world, as well as billions of Muslims before them! and... and...

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

Jamaluddine
05-03-2005, 08:39 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

I forgot:

The verses that referred to in post 60, verses 5:69 and 2:62 are misunderstood by all Hadith and Sunnah Rejectors. I refer all brothers and sisters to all famous Tafseer books to find out what these Holy really verses mean.

Wassalam,

Jamaluddine.

Jamaluddine
05-03-2005, 07:50 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

TO BROTHER ALI BABA,

Jazaakallahu Khairan on that very relevant verse that you quoted in posts 56 and 57.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, SPOT ON!!

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

monotheist
05-03-2005, 10:24 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam
(Apologies, but here comes the long post…)

Jamaluddine, its good to see that your back my friend. God willing I will put up a post for brother alibaba shortly.

__________________

“I am not qualified enough and do not have enough knowledge to answer some ideas that I know are wrong.”
__________________


How can somebody ‘know’ that something is wrong without having ‘enough knowledge’ about it? Doing this may suggest that preconceived ideas, tradition and popular belief play a key role in thinking. Please don’t take offence Brother Jamaluddine, but God has given us all the power of thought, and we all have access to the Quran, hadith books, Tafsir, and anything else we might think we need, so we should all ask for God’s help and try our best to seek the truth in God’s way. It’s not a matter of memorising things and sitting at a position of authority; it’s a matter of appropriate use of the resources available to us all, whether that be in our heads or available to us in a physical form.

__________________

Post 60:
[ “There are many christians who have done good for mankind and God will reward them for that.”

God backs you up my friend, (5:69 and 2:62).]

Allah does not back you up on this! (With all my sincere respect to the two brothers).
We must be careful saying things like this, especially that many of our young and easily misled muslim brothers have opted to turn to Christianity because of these very ideas.
__________________


I for one cannot see any Muslim turning to Christianity after reading and believing Gods words in 5:69, and 2:62, because if they believed God’s words then they would not want to go to another religion. A Muslim cannot begin to follow another religion after reading and believing a verse from the Quran. This is impossible. Although somebody who calls themselves a Muslim because they followed their parent’s religion may easily turn to Christianity for personal convenience, without actually having believed in Islam at all previously, they only called themselves Muslims. The verses are as follows…

5:69
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

2:62
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

In other parts of his message, God clearly condemns Jews and Christians for setting up sons for God (5:72). So apparently this would look like a contradiction in the Quran and brother Jamaluddine suggests that…

__________________

“The verses that referred to in post 60, verses 5:69 and 2:62 are misunderstood by all Hadith and Sunnah Rejectors. I refer all brothers and sisters to all famous Tafseer books to find out what these Holy really verses mean.”
__________________


If I were in Jamaluddine’s place I would have said ‘I refer all brothers and sister to God, and ask him for his help’ before sending people to Tafsir books. l would like to show the falsehood of this claim that brother Jamaluddine has made that if you don’t refer to hadith books external to the Quran, then 5:69 and 2:62 will be misunderstood. As somebody who rejects hadith books external to the Quran and believes wholeheartedly in 6:114, 7:52, 41:3, 10:15, 44:2, 10:37, 11:1, 16:89, 17:89, 18:54, and 39:27 as well as the rest of God’s message, I will again demonstrate that God has more than enough power to a deliver clear and self explanatory message. Please allow me to explain.

There are people out there who are Muslims, and when asked why they call themselves Muslims they will just say that they do so because of their parent’s beliefs and their socio-cultural norms. So even though they do not believe in Islam wholeheartedly they still call themselves ‘Muslims’. Exactly the same thing applies to Christians, Jews and Sabiens. For example, there are those who come under the umbrella of ‘Christians’ that rightfully see no logic in God having a son, and the rest of the trinity nonsense. Some of these people have perfectly monotheistic beliefs, just because they don’t call God ‘Allah’ (Which is actually two words, Al-ilah, which means ‘the God’, like laa-ilah, which means ‘no God’) and they don’t label themselves as ‘Muslims’ doesn’t mean that the are not worthy of the THE GOD’s rewards. THE GOD says clearly that he will reward the Christians, Jews and Sabiens who believe in THE GOD and the last day and work righteous deeds, so we are nothing to disagree with him. His words are the eternal truth and nothing has/can/will abrogate them (6:115), no matter how much credit is given to external sources by humans. I myself have a tutor who calls himself a Christian but (through the discussion myself and my friends have had with him) accepts the Quran and rejects the trinity theory. He is effectively a believer, but just because he calls himself a ‘Christian’ and doesn’t label himself as a ‘Muslim’ whilst having a name in English doesn’t mean he is destined for hell.

____________________

To save time and space, I will only say this:
People in Saudi Arabia are like any other Muslim peoples around the world; they range from those who fight against islam with everything they have, to those who all they have from islam is their name, to those who spend all night, every night doing prayers and reading the Qur'an, while most of us are enjoying a good sleep.
Verses 9:97 and 9:101 refer to certain tribes of Desert Arabs who lived at the time of The Messenger (PBUH). To say that this refers to ALL Arabs of ALL times is HARAM, because this includes The Prophet (PBUH) and the Companions (ABPWT) ....etc. (Read Tafseer books: Ibn Katheer, Al-Jalalain, Al-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi, ...etc).
____________________


Firstly I’d like to say that THE GOD’s words are the greatest and most universal truths, so it covers all times unless otherwise stated by THE GOD (in which case THE GOD would have said ‘The Arabs at the time of this revelation…’). Secondly, THE GOD does not say this about ALL Arabs, and nobody here is claiming that. There are in fact strong believers and strong disbelievers in every nation and society. But THE GOD has chosen to talk about Arabs specifically. This is because he knew that some people would get the idea that just because the prophet (PBUH) was a good believer, so are the other Arabs, and so we can trust them with matters of THE GOD, just because they speak the language of the Quran. But THE GOD being THE GOD, he knew that this would happen, that people would begin to use language as a barrier to prevent non-Arabs from seeking the truth; leaving Islam exclusive the Arabs. That is one of the reasons why he has focussed on the Arabs in particular, to guide us away from this idea that Arabs are generally good Muslims and nice people and they always do good things and that we should be like them. THE GOD has consistently condemned this ideology altogether.

I’m surprised that brother Jamaluddine still thought it absolutely vital to add the flowing comments:

_______________

Let us not get into 'politics' and forget about the original subject of this forum: Hadith and Sunnah Rejectors.

There are people amongst us who do not believe in doing 5 prayers a day, They do not believe in perfoming prayers like the other billion Muslims around the world, as well as billions of Muslims before them! and... and...
_______________


Brother Jamaluddine, the subject of this thread is most certainly not “Hadith and Sunnah rejectors”, I hope you realise that it is about ‘Hadith and Sunnah’. Perhaps this is what brother Amir Khan (the one from Bolton…) was displeased with, when he said that he ‘felt guilty in joining in with your evil practices.” He believes you are just judging people like myself with preconceived ideas and not searching for or promoting the truth. The title of this thread is ‘Explaining the importance of sunnah to a hadith rejector’, and not “hey guys lets chat about how we don’t like hadith and sunna rejectors!’” Reading the title of the thread I thought I might benefit, but it seems that I am just becoming a target for people, (As brother Amir Khan put it), ‘trying to attack’ me.

The following is something that could be said using brother Jamaluddine’s sentence structure exactly…

“There are people amongst us who do not believe in [the holy trinity], They do not believe in [singing songs of praise in churches] like the other billion[s of Christians] around the world, as well as billions of [Christians] before them! and... and...”

The truth is not based on majority vote and probability my friend. The truth is based on THE GOD and his words. When THE GOD spoke to the world, everyone didn’t just come with open arms to embrace the THE GOD’s message, only a few believed, and those who did believe did not care about what others thought, they saw the truth in the THE GOD’s message and decided to leave their idol worshipping ways to those who didn’t bother to look into the THE GOD’s message and would never leave their valuable idolising traditions to be in line with THE GOD’s truths. May the THE GOD guide us all.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

Author of the long posts.



P.S. – Brother alibaba, with the will of THE GOD, my next post will address the point you brought to our attention. Many thanks to you for doing so. Brother Jamaluddine said “I think you've hit the nail on the head, SPOT ON!!”. My advice is that you hold your horses and wait for my next post, you may begin to think otherwise as you did undoubtedly when I responded to your point of 'obey the messenger'… (Robbi zidni ilmaa!). Again I must say, if I am proven wrong, then I will testify to this in front of all brothers and siters on this forum.

All Praise is due to THE GOD!!!

alibaba
06-03-2005, 12:52 AM
just try to make these posts short.......i want to read them....but man....these are essays!!!!......and considering that i have the attention span of a fly.....i get bored and i never get past the fifth line

alibaba
06-03-2005, 12:59 AM
I have seen in my life that we Sunnis are being punished for the bad things we have done. We are becoming extremists. We are being killed because we have been bad people.

To brother Aamir khan
....this is just one example of many ..... but PEOPLE Sunnism is not a religion!!!!...Islam is the religion ...sheesh.....u'd think I'm trying to explain rocket science!!
Shia's are Muslims as well!!!!!!


and did i mention ...SUNNISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!! ITS JUST ANOTHER SECT

Aamir
06-03-2005, 09:22 AM
To all sunnah and hadith rejectors...do u guys pray only 3 salah in a day..cos in the quran only 3 salahs times are pointed to....

ahsanirfan
06-03-2005, 12:25 PM
Shia's are Muslims as well!!!!!!

Sadly some here will agree to disagree. We need more flexibility in this regard.


and did i mention ...SUNNISM IS NOT A RELIGION!!!! ITS JUST ANOTHER SECT

True say bro, true say ;) However, it's not "just another sect". Since it's the majority, Allah's hand is over it. ("And Allah's hand is over the majority.")

alibaba
06-03-2005, 03:09 PM
hmm....Bush won the elections....even though everyone knew he was the biggest bafoon to get the presedential seat.......a bloodthirsty killa...........he won becasue of majority!!!.......does not mean the majority is always rite!!

Haamilul Qur'aan
06-03-2005, 03:14 PM
he won becasue of majority!!!.......
I would re-think that.

alibaba
06-03-2005, 03:16 PM
nah...first time he got elected it could have been argued but this second victory had good portion of the idiotic american ppl...voting for him

ahsanirfan
06-03-2005, 03:29 PM
nah...first time he got elected it could have been argued but this second victory had good portion of the idiotic american ppl...voting for him

akhi.. sister ninjabi is right.. the second time round ohio state was a problem... and the story was deliberately suppressed.. tht isnt a surprise since cbs is the only non-republican news channel there...

khair as for muslim majority... Allah endorses it in the Quran himself.. as well as the Rasul Allah... if you want to stick to the "quran and sunnah" only.. might was weel accept these things too... ("Stick to the Jama'ah", "And Allah's hand is over the majority").. khair enough of that.... back to the topic of hadith rejection...

monotheist
06-03-2005, 08:47 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters (nice to see some new faces on this thread, peace to all of you)

The point was raised that the word ‘Hikmah’ (wisdom) actually means Muhammad’s (PBUH) own teachings external to the Quran, which entails; ‘Sahih’ Bukhari, ‘Sahih’ Muslim, and all the other hadith books external to the Quran; the views and opinions of well known scholars as issued in fatwa’s; ‘Shariah’ law based entirely on these things;… all but to name a few of the attacks against the truths of the Quran as stated in the following of the God’s words, which (to my personal frustration) have been largely ignored in this thread as yet, unless the God wills in the future…

***6:114, 7:52, 41:3, 10:15, 44:2, 10:37, 11:1, 16:89, 17:89, 18:54, 39:27***

For those who don’t have full belief in the above verses and many others and look to other books to find ways to get around them, the following is an explanation for how ‘Hikmah’ cannot possibly mean what it is claimed to mean by some. Please be open-minded and patient when reading yet another looooooooong post… Fasten your seat belts ladies and gentlemen.

2:151
Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you [[who (1.) recites to you Our communications and (2.) purifies you and (3.) teaches you the Book and (4.) the wisdom and (5.) teaches you that which you did not know.]]

1. Muhammad (PBUH) recites Quran
2. Muhammad (PBUH) sanctifies us/causes us to grow/purifies us
3. Muhammad (PBUH) teaches the Book
4. Muhammad (PBUH) teaches |||THE||| ‘wisdom’
5. Muhammad (PBUH) teaches that which we did not know

3:164
Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, [[(1.) reciting to them His communications and (2.) purifying them, and (3.) teaching them the Book and (4.) the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error.

1. Muhammad (PBUH) recites Quran
2. Muhammad (PBUH) sanctifies us/causes us to grow/purifies us
3. Muhammad (PBUH) teaches the Book
4. Muhammad (PBUH) teaches |||THE||| ‘wisdom’

It must be noted that even though the word ‘sunnah’ does not appear in either of these verses, it appears that an understanding is being forced onto the verse. If the God really wanted us to follow Muhammad’s (PBUH) so-called ‘sunnah’, would he not mention it anywhere in the Quran by name? He hasn’t. People just want to turn the word ‘wisdom’ into ‘teachings external to the Quran from Muhammad (PBUH)’.

Perhaps what hasn’t been realised is that the God has a reason for what he says, and he has a reason for exactly how he has worded these verses. Brother alibaba suggested…

[I wonder... if God has already sent the book "teaching you the book(Quran)" then what is meant by the word Hikmah?......]

Let’s look at the verse itself in Arabic.

Wa yualimukumul kitaba wal hikmata. - And teaches the book and the wisdom.

Put simply, in these verses, the Quran is said to be recited, used to purify, taught as a book to read and as a source of wisdom. And this is not any source of wisdom. It is THE source of wisdom, hence ‘||AL|| – hikmah’. This indicates that the wisdom that is being talked about is one specific entity, which is the Quran, and not Muhammad’s (PBUH) wisdom in general. If it did mean Muhammad’s (PBUH) wisdom then these verses would not say “and teaches the book and ‘THE’ wisdom”, they would say “and teaches the book and wisdom”. It is clear with the God’s deliberate use of the definite article preceding the word Hikmah that the God is in fact talking about THE Quran.

Now it could be argued that the Quran is different to wisdom. However, simple logic would tell us that The Quran has been revealed as the source of Wisdom for us – so the Quran is our wisdom. But then again as further evidence the God has made clear signs throughout the Quran to reinforce his message to those who doubt him…

3:58
"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and THE Message of Wisdom."

10:1
A.L.R. These are the ayats of THE Book of Wisdom.

31:2
These are Verses of THE Wise Book,-

36:2
By THE Qur'an, full of Wisdom,-

43:4
And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.

Brother alibaba dropped it like this:
[so where would one have access to the wisdom and the sunnah of the Prophet other than the hadith?]

Well, my friend, I’ve got two words for you – the Quran.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

alibaba
06-03-2005, 10:47 PM
Brother alibaba dropped it like this:
[so where would one have access to the wisdom and the sunnah of the Prophet other than the hadith?]

Well, my friend, I’ve got two words for you – the Quran.


the Quran has written down what the prophet said other than the Quran??? that does not make anysense

it is narrated by several sahabas that the prophet would fall into a trance of some sort when the revelations were coming......ru suggesting that he was in a permanent trance.??? that he said nothing but the verses of the Quran.......his entire life...............???? the prophet was a man w/ infinite wisdom.......and he woud describe certain ayahs of the Quran to the masses .......and these statements of his cannot be found in the Quran but can be in the ahadith

monotheist
06-03-2005, 10:55 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam

Brother alibaba said:

“just try to make these posts short.......i want to read them....but man....these are essays!!!!......and considering that i have the attention span of a fly.....i get bored and i never get past the fifth line”

I get what you mean bro, and I kind of feel a bit silly putting up these big essays, but its just that I’m one of those unusual people who just write what they think, and by chance it makes sense when people read it, and its also because I feel its my duty to respond exhaustively to all the points that are raised by you brothers and sisters. See, I’ve done it again! I could have just said “OK”… (sorry!).


Brother Aamir said:

“To all sunnah and hadith rejectors...do u guys pray only 3 salah in a day..cos in the quran only 3 salahs times are pointed to....”

Although I’m not a hadith rejecter, because I believe in the best hadith (The Quran), my advice to you would be that you carry on reading this thread until you decide for yourself that it is worth rejecting hadith books external to the Quran. Then your search for the truth will really begin, and trust me, you will enjoy seeking God’s help, as your ‘pervezi’ friend probably did. Anyway that’s besides the point, its all about what the Quran tells us to do, not what ‘hadith and sunnah rejectors’ do or what ‘sunnis’ do, or what ‘shias’ do. I hope you get what I mean, its not about following anyone, its about seeking the truth and asking God for help (1:5 – “Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek”). I don’t intend to go distinguishing between the details that are actually in the Quran and the things that people claim should be there if it truly is ‘fully detailed and complete’ as the God claimed it to be, because the Quran itself is there to do that.

Its like this my friend, in just the same way I don’t approve of people who say “hey look!... heres a hadith that doesn’t make sense, lets reject all of them” I also don’t approve of people who say “hey look!... this thing is not in the Quran, so it can’t be fully detailed, so lets go to hadith books to make life complicated for ourselves”. I hope you understand. So all I want to discuss in this thread is how the Quran may actually justify hadith books, if it does that is, and to be perfectly honest, so far I haven’t been shown any verses in which the God tells us to accept hadith books external to the his message to mankind, although I am still keeping an open mind and waiting for such an event to turn up, if it ever will that is…

You said: “in the quran only 3 salahs times are pointed to....” – If you admit that in the Quran the God says totally different things to hadith books external to the Quran, (as you just have done in saying what I have just quoted), all I would say to that is that there is a lot of purification needed, it just takes the will power to go on and ask the God to be purified.

By the way, it’s good to see you’re an open minded guy. Is there any way you could get your ‘pervezi’ friend to come and read this thread, whom you mentioned at the start of this thread, which seems a looooooooooong time ago now, and everyone’s forgotten about him! Or at least get him to read this thread and ask him what he thinks, please, that would be much appreciated.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

monotheist
06-03-2005, 11:00 PM
Peace Brother Alibaba,

"the Quran has written down what the prophet said other than the Quran??? that does not make anysense"

I never said that we needed the things that the prophet (PBUH) said that weren't in the Quran. And I never said that we needed to follow what is today called his 'sunnah', which is based on human narration, prone to modification by the disbelievers, resulting in many contradictions etc. becuase these books have not been protected by God as he protected the Quran, obviously becuase they are not needed.

I hope I cleared up the misunderstanding my friend.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam

alibaba
07-03-2005, 01:01 AM
"prone to modification by the disbelievers, resulting in many contradictions"

in order to make this claim you have to read up on how the hadith were compiled and how they were authenticated......obviously those highly esteemed scholars were not complete idiots to believe in some heresay by the disbelievers....really ..... u gotta read up on the process....

otherwise there are many things...which we will not be able to do...eg.....the five daily prayers....not once in the Quran does it say that there are 5 prayers that have been established....and their exact timings.......therefore how do we pray???.........

sure..this process has been passed down thru generations.....however .... that in itself is the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad.....what he said and explained to his companions...
plus what we say while in prayer.....eg...Surah Fathia...e.t.c.....is also not stated in the Quran....then where does this all come from??... how do we know all of this....if the Quran in its entirety is self sufficient...then we would not know how many times to pray and neither would we know what to say when in prayer

monotheist
07-03-2005, 09:06 PM
Peace brother alibaba

_______________

in order to make this claim you have to read up on how the hadith were compiled and how they were authenticated......obviously those highly esteemed scholars were not complete idiots to believe in some heresay by the disbelievers....really ..... u gotta read up on the process....
_______________


Trust me bro, I've done my homework, it is well accepted that hadith books even today after so much (subjective) filtering, still contain many very unreliable and unbelievable hadiths, not to mention the ones which we accept as the truth becuase they seem OK to believe (the things which we commonly think are part of Islam, when in fact God has not endorsed them in the Quran in the first place).

I have as a matter of fact read up on the process of hadith collection and filtering, I don't talk whilst floating in the air my friend. I am very reluctant to quote hadiths because I don't approve of saying that one hadith is wrong and then rejecting them all. That would be just sheer ignorance. But to be honest, there are many hadiths out there that clearly violate laws of the Quran (Such as the numerous hadiths where Muhammad PBUH is said to be telling us what will happen in the future, even though in numerous places in the Quran Muhammad PBUH says clearly that he cannot even tell his own future e.g. 6:50, 7:188, 10:20...), even though they have been labelled as 'sahih' in books that are labelled 'sahih'. I wish not to discuss such hadith because then this will just turn into an argument over people trying to justify the hadith and people trying to reject them, we'll all just be going round in circles. And that is not the point of this discussion, we are all here to progress our knowledge of the God's system of life, so that the truth prevails and we all reach the same conclusion of truth.

_______________

"otherwise there are many things...which we will not be able to do...eg.....the five daily prayers....not once in the Quran does it say that there are 5 prayers that have been established....and their exact timings.......therefore how do we pray???........."
_______________


This means that you accept that the hadith books external to the Quran advocate totally different concepts than what the God himself does in the Quran. At this point in time it is appropriate to highlight a few verses again...

*6:114* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained, and not just in general terms

*7:52* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained, and not just in general terms

*10:15* - The Quran is made clear, not just readable for extra sawaab

*10:37* - The Quran contains a full explanation, not just general information

*11:1* - The Quran is explained in detail, not just explained with little detail in general terms

*16:89* - The Quran explains all things, not just a few things in general terms

*17:89* - The Quran explains with all examples, not just a few examples

*18:54* - The Quran explains with all examples, not just a few examples

*39:27* - The Quran contains all examples, not just a few in general

*41:3* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained in general

*44:2* - The Quran makes things clear, it doesn't just make mention of things

We all know that the God does not lie, so once we all begin to believe the God fully when he says the above things (and we do accept that he is not saying this about general things but also all of the specifics), only then will we become sincere believers and we will be given access to understanding of the Quran.

_______________

"if the Quran in its entirety is self sufficient...then we would not know ..."
_______________


That question is out of the question brother. My friend alibaba, in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran a lot of purification takes place. The God is witness to this, all I would say is that all it takes is the will to 'Believe God' as well as 'Believe in God', then just watch the almighty increase your knowledge. Take me for example, its only been one or two months since my doubts of hadith books were proven right, and look at me now, for a college student with 101 other things to worry about, I can successfully discuss this topic with people who are possibly even 3 times more elder than me! This is not becuase I am specially gifted or anything, may the God give me the strength to abstain from being big-headed, but this has only been possible with the God's help. All Praise is due to the almighty! May he be glorified above all else!

_______________

sure..this process has been passed down thru generations.....
_______________


Some people say that the things we accept as part of Islam that are not in the Quran are there in inherited tradition, and that we do not need to refer to hadith books. I'm afraid this is one of the biggest self-contradictions I have ever come across! If traditions aren't written down in hadith books, this doesn't mean that they're not hadith! The Quran is fully detailed and comlete, and it is totally false to say that we need to turn to inherited tradition to complete the details given to us in the Quran. It again becomes a matter of 'Believing God' as well as 'Believing in God'. God says that the Quran is fuly detailed and complete, so anything esle that is claimed to be part of islam, but not found in the Quran, this is not 'extra detail', rather it is 'human addition!' All the details we need are in the Quran.

Taking the following verse should show that the God did not run out of words, he says things with a reason, and he doesn't say things with a reason.

18:109
Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam,
Monotheist.

monotheist
07-03-2005, 10:20 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
(This is probably one of my shortest posts...)

Any criticism on whatever I have said is most welcome. Please feel free.
Secondly, I ask for anybody capable to bring forward more verses which they think could lead to the need to accept hadith books external to the Quran and we shall carry on seeking the truth. God willing all brothers and sisters will find me open minded and accepting of any kind of criticism. By the way, please don't think this is a 'heated debate', anyone who wishes to contribute is most welcome.

Peace to all brothers and sisters,
Monotheist.

alibaba
08-03-2005, 02:09 AM
you still have not answered my question


how can you pray five times a day w/o ever reading a hadith?? the Quran does not*** mention the timings of the five prayers!!!!....plz answer this question....specifically this question

and ...
second question
what do you say when you are in prayer....this again...is not outlined in the Quran....

please donot generalize my questions...these questions are very specific and require a very very specific response...ie.....answer the question

and these are 2 of the many specifics...that are not outlined in the Quran but are derived from what the prophet did ......

Mod
08-03-2005, 05:38 AM
Assalamu alaikum.

I didnt want to participate in this debate as i know that there will be no result at all. However, for monotheist this will be quite disturbing that ur sermons were read by two of ur pervaizi followers who r my friends n they also came up with the impression that U R PLAYING WITH THE WORDS. Accept it or not, upto u! Certainly, u r here not in search of truth but only to propagate ur belief...another third party's (who is christian) approval.

Now, this article which i'm pasting is taken from another site, and monotheist....plz this is not for u, this is only a piece of information for my brothers who r on the right path. I'll not comment to any of ur arguement so plz dont bother n waste ur time to answer me....done! Here it goes:

The Ahaadith of Rasulullah ((Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa'alihi Wasallam) have been unanimously accepted by the entire Ummah as the source of Islamic Law, after the Noble Qurãn. In fact, upon pondering, it can be concluded that the entire Ahaadith contain the real essence of Islamic Law as the Ahaadith comprise of the mubarak words, actions and approvals of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) who has interpreted the Noble Quran and defined its object and purpose. However, it is regrettable that a certain group of people influenced by the corrupt western culture and civilization, have began refuting the Ahaadith.

In the beginning of 20th century Abdullah Chakardalwi formed a group called, Quranic Group and his object was the total rejection of Ahaadith. They did not negate the Ahaadith completely, instead they rejected all those that were contrary to their aims and objects and their limited understanding and reasoning even though all these Ahaadith were authentically narrated. They discreetly propagated that the Ahaadith are not legal Shariah proof in this age and era. This led to the legalising of interest and usury; the rejection of the Prophets, the denial of the Angels, the negation of Purdah and other essentials of Islam, and moreover, legalizing of prohibited things. This concept was further promoted by Aslam Inerajpuri. Finally, Gulam Ahmed Parwez established this erroneous belief among the masses through his influential writings. This fitnah spread widely in his period (era). Basically this fitnah revolves around 3 different beliefs viz.

1. The Holy Prophet's SAWW mission was to deliver the Quran only. Obedience is restricted to the Quran only. Adherence to the Holy Prophet SAWW is not binding upon us, nor was it binding upon the Sahaba (RA). Divine Revelation was only in the form of the Quran. Hence there is no need for the Ahaadith.
2. The Sayings of the Holy Prophet SAWW were binding and obligatory upon the Sahaba (RA) only, not upon us.
3. The teachings of the Holy Prophet SAWW are binding upon the entire Ummah. However, due to the Ahaadith being unauthentic, we are not obliged to accept them.

All these concepts are totally false and rejected. Numerous verses of the Noble Quran, prove that divine revelation besides the Noble Quran, was revealed to the Holy Prophet SAWW. Missions of the Holy Prophet SAWW as mentioned in the Noble Qurãn are to teach and explain the Noble Qurãn and its wisdom. If the Ahaadith are rejected, can this object of teaching and explaining the Quran be realised? Another clear indication towards the authenticity of the Ahaadith is the fact that the Noble Qurãn commands us to show obedience to the Holy Prophet SAWW together with obedience to Allah. In one verse, obedience to the Holy Prophet SAWW has been regarded as the basis of Imaan. Logically, it is not possible to follow the Quranic injunctions without the Ahaadith as the details of many Quranic injunctions such as Salat, Zakat, Haj, etc. are explained in the Ahaadith. The entire Ummah has accepted the authenticity of the Ahaadith in order to make the divine injunctions practical. Can it be claimed that the entire Ummah is misguided? Another question that arises with this concept is: Are the Sahaba who witnessed the revelation of the Noble Qurãn more in need of its explanation or are the ones that came after them more in need?

The third concept is also totally unacceptable because the Quran has reached us through the same method as the Ahaadith have reached us. If the Ahaadith are unauthentic, can one declare the Noble Quran unauthentic as well. The divine promise of safe-guarding Noble Qurãn embodies the safeguarding of the Ahaadith also, because the Ahaadith explain the Quran without which one cannot practice upon the Quran.

Now just for monotheist info I will show some proofs about recording of the ahaadiths in the Prophetic era. References are many of such collections and compilations. As for us, we Alhamdulillah know our path. So, there are numerous traditions indicating the instruction of writing Ahaadith.

1. THE SAHIFA (COLLECTION) OF ABDULLAH IBN AMR (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) Hadhrat Abu Hurayrah (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) is the greatest narrator of Hadith. Despite this he says, 'No person has learnt more Hadith than me. However, Abdullah bin Amr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) used to write the Hadith and I should not write.' This is clear evidence that Hadith used to be written in that era. Hadhrat Abdullah bin Amr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) possessed a collection that exceeded one thousand Ahaadith. Ibnr-Rushd has mentioned in his Kitaab Asadul Ghaaba (vol. 3 pg. 233) that, this collection was named As-saadiqah.

2. THE SAHIFA (COLLECTION OF HADHRAT ALI (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) Imaam Bukhari (RA) has mentioned in this Sahifa in the chapter of "Ilm" (vol. 1 pg. 21) and, he has mentioned it in four places The narrator Abu Juhaifa reports that, 'I enquired from Hazrat Ali (R.A.), do you possess a book?' He replied: "No, except the Book of Allah or the understanding granted to a Muslim or what is in this Sahifa." I asked him, "What is in this Sahifa?" He replied, "Orders relating to 'Diyat' (penalty or murder) - the freeing of prisoners and no Muslim will be killed in lieu of a kaafir."

This Sahifa contained orders regarding, murder, compensations, capital punishments, details of Zakaat and matters relating to non-Muslim citizens in an Islamic State.

3. KITABUS - SAQAH
This collection was personally dictated by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). It contained details regarding Zakaat, Ushar etc. According to some reports it seems as though this was written for the Zakaat collectors. However, the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) left this world before it was sent to them. This kitaab remained with Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar (R.A.). Eventually Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz memorized it and thereafter Ibn Shihaab Zohri memorised it.

4. SAHIFA IBN ABBAS (R.A.)
Ibn Saad (R.A.) mentions in his kitaab "Tabaqaat" that the slave of Ibn Abbas (R.A.) said 'He found a large collection of the kitaabs of Ibn Abbas equal to a camel-load.'

5. SAHIFA JAABIR IBN ABDULLAH (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)
Imaam Muslim has reported that Hadhrat Jaabir (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) had compiled a book on Hajj. Imaam Bukhari mentioned this is his Taarikh-e-Kabeer vol. 7 pg. 186) - Hadhrat Qataaqda bin De'aama as-Sodusi had memorised this Sahifa.

6. SAHIFA SAMURA IBN JUNDOB (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)
Hafiz ibn Hajar (RA) reports that Hadhrat Samoora (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) has narrated a big (volume) chapter from his father. Imaam Muhammad ibn Sireen (RA) reports that the Kitaab which Hadhrat Samoora (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) has written for his children contains great knowledge.

7. SAHIFA SAAD IBN UBADA
Ibn Saad reports in 'Tabaqaat' that Hadhrat Saad (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) had a collection of Ahaadith.

8. SAHIFA ABU HURAYRA (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)
Imaam Hakim mentions in Mustadrak that once Hadhrat Hassan ibn Umar narrated a Hadith to Hadhrat Abu Hurayra (Radhiallaahu Ánhu). Hadhrat Abu Hurayra denied the Hadith. Hadhrat Hassan told him, 'I have narrated this Hadith from you'. He replied, 'If I have narrated it, it will definitely be written down.'

He had written down all his Hadith in the end.

9. SAHIFA IBN MAS'OOD
Hafiz ibn Abdul-Barr (RA) mentions in his Kitaab, 'Jaame Bayaan nul-Ilm' that ibn Mas'ood (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) took out one Kitaab and swore an oath that it was compiled by him.

10. SAHIFA AMR IBN HAZAM (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)
When the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) appointed Hadhrat ibn Hazam (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) as a governor of Najran, he gave him a Sahifa which was written by Hadhrat Ubayy bin Ka'ab. It contained orders regarding cleanliness, purification, Salaat, Hajj, Umra, Jihaad, etc.

11. SAHIFA IBN MUBAARAK
Hadhrat Sa'eed ibn Hilaal says, 'When we frequented Hadhrat Anas bin Maalik he took out a volume and said, 'I heard these from the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). I have written it and preserved it.' (Mustadrak Hakim vol. 3 pg. 54)

12. There are many other small Sahifas which the holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) sent to the kings; and, other compilations which have been omitted for the sake of brevity.

Though the writing of the Ahaadith had commenced it was not done in an arranged manner, i.e. it was compiled and codified. Due to the pre-occupations of the Khulafaa-e-Raashideen with the compilation of the Noble Qurãn and other important matters, it was not possible for them to accomplish this task.

However, when the politicians at the time of Hazrat Ali (R.A.) began to fabricate false Ahaadith Hazrat Ali became concerned about safeguarding the authentic Ahaadith. He used to stand on the mimbar and announce the authentic Ahaadith to the people. This continued till the period of Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz (R.A.) who became the khalifa after the demise of Sulayman bin Abdul Malik. His khilafat lasted only for 2 years. After accepting khilafat, he wrote to the judge of Madinah, Abubakr bin Hazm saying, "Whatever you find from the Ahaadith of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), write it down. I fear the loss of knowledge and the passing away of the Ulema. (Bukhari vol.1 page 20)

Hafiz Ibn Hajar mentions that this letter was addressed to all the Judges of every province. A large collection of Ahaadith were compiled in this manner in the first century. 1. Hafiz Ibn Abdul Bar has written that Qazi Abu Bakr has compiled many books on Ahaadith called "Books of Abu Bakr." 2. The Risala (Booker) of Saalim ibn Abdullah on Sadaqaat. 3. The Registers of Zohri - he says that whenever we were given any command we compiled a brief register. He had played a great role in the compilation of Hadith.

Various collections of Hadith are found in this era like Jame Ma'moon bin Raashid, Jame Sufyaan Sowri, As-Sunem of Ibn Juray - Sunan Abul Waleed - Mu'atta Imam Maalik.

From the above discussion we reach the following conclusion that:
1. The recording and writing of hadith had begun from the time of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa’alihi Wasallam).
2. Compiling had began in the time of the Sahaba (R.A.) especially in the time of Hazrat Ali (R.A.);
3. Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz strived in this matter and a large collection was accumulated during his period;
4. Many books were compiled in the first century;
5. the objections and arguments of the Rejectors of hadith are fully answered;
6. the fitnah of Rejection in hadith is old and detrimental to religion, in fact rejecting the Quran;
7. the Ahaadith are a complementary and explanation of the Quran;
8. the safeguarding of the Quran entails the safeguarding of the Hadith.

monotheist
08-03-2005, 09:46 AM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

“U R PLAYING WITH THE WORDS”

My friend MOD – you are fully entitled to your own opinion, but I would like to know where exactly I have done this. If you cannot find such a place then I recommend that you do not throw accusations at people at your leisure.

“plz dont bother n waste ur time to answer me”

Having seen my previous posts you know you won’t be able to answer my criticism on this post of yours that’s why you are deliberately discouraging me from making a response. If you are truthful then I invite you to discuss exactly what problems you have with what I am saying.

And as usual, just like brother ibn ajiba’s post, not a single specific verse reference can be found in the whole of his post. I don’t think I need to sayany more on this, perhaps it is not me that is playing with words because I am using words that are unchangeable, unlike you my friend.

Your post was nothing but a feeble attempt to formalise your own personal opinion to make it look like facts. If you think you are truthful then I invite you to discuss this issue with me, though I doubt it because I know from the nature of your post that you are here to do nothing but judge people and throw accusations at people who begin to think out of the box. May the God show us all the right path to salvation.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

monotheist
08-03-2005, 12:48 PM
Peace

If any brothers and sisters on this thread really think it to be neccessary for me to respond to this post that Mod thinks wil change the world, then I will be more than happy to put up another of my looooooooooonnnnng posts. I would have done this anyway, but brother Mod seems afraid of facing any criticism, in telling me that I needn't answer him. Just as a reminder. As I uphold the best hadith, the Quran, I would like to remind him of the following...


*6:114* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained, and not just in general terms

*7:52* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained, and not just in general terms

*10:15* - The Quran is made clear, not just readable for extra sawaab

*10:37* - The Quran contains a full explanation, not just general information

*11:1* - The Quran is explained in detail, not just explained with little detail in general terms

*16:89* - The Quran explains all things, not just a few things in general terms

*17:89* - The Quran explains with all examples, not just a few examples

*18:54* - The Quran explains with all examples, not just a few examples

*39:27* - The Quran contains all examples, not just a few in general

*41:3* - The Quran is explained in full detail, not just explained in general

*44:2* - The Quran makes things clear, it doesn't just make mention of things

Peace to all brothers and sisters.

Aamir
08-03-2005, 07:11 PM
Brother the question about the number of salah in a day still remains unanswred

Mod
08-03-2005, 07:42 PM
Ohhh mono dear, relax….calm down….i didn’t know that u would be that much dispersed by the opinion of UR OWN ppl…ok…I’ll take their remarks back n instead of “U PLAYING WITH THE WORDS” I’ll use “GAMBLING WITH THE WORDS”…now take some antispasmodic n tune urself to stereo ;)

<Having seen my previous posts you know you won’t be able to answer my criticism on this post of yours that’s why you are deliberately discouraging me from making a response.>

1. Ya mono!!! :lol: ….Read the beginning of the article. It was truly not for u. It was for my brothers and sisters as an aid to strengthen n consolidate their iman. I proudly state on behalf of ahlu sunnah that we take whole Quran alhamdulillah not some verses for justification.

< If you are truthful then I invite you to discuss exactly what problems you have with what I am saying.>

2. Naah mono. I have no problem with what u r saying…u r playing…eh…sorry … gambling with the words that everyone has already noticed, even ur own ppl. Don’t panic now.

<And as usual, just like brother ibn ajiba’s post, not a single specific verse reference can be found in the whole of his post.>

3. Ur delusions are refuted several times by my brothers but verily “Summun bukmun umyun fahum la yarjeoon”.

<I don’t think I need to sayany more on this, perhaps it is not me that is playing with words because I am using words that are unchangeable, unlike you my friend.>

4. Yes…u r playing with words of Allah SWT…chosing one, regecting other….just to serve the purpose.

<Your post was nothing but a feeble attempt to formalise your own personal opinion to make it look like facts. If you think you are truthful then I invite you to discuss this issue with me…>

5. Sheesshh. Refer to point 1 plz.

<If any brothers and sisters on this thread really think it to be neccessary for me to respond to this post that Mod thinks wil change the world, then I will be more than happy to put up another of my looooooooooonnnnng posts>

6. No body cares believe me..but if u want to gamble with the words..plz carry on…I do not take part in the discussions on the beliefs that r primarily based on the surface they appear to be solid but faced with the light of truth, they melt away like wax. …….It is done! Refer to all posts in this thread.

< As I uphold the best hadith, the Quran, I would like to remind him of the following...>

7. Refer to point 5.

I know what will be ur response. ;) Take some antidepressant too. U'll sleep well. :)

monotheist
08-03-2005, 11:40 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

It appears that another member is behaving like Kaarpal Pandit. I myself would rather spend my time searching for the truth rather than insulting others for differences in views. This is my take on things.

_____________

Ohhh mono dear, relax….calm down….i didn’t know that u would be that much dispersed by the opinion of UR OWN ppl…ok…I’ll take their remarks back n instead of “U PLAYING WITH THE WORDS” I’ll use “GAMBLING WITH THE WORDS”…now take some antispasmodic n tune urself to stereo
_____________


Well Mod, I have Hindu friends, Sikh Friends, christian friends, bhuddist friends, Shia friends and Sunni friends,... I could just as easily tell you that they are all swearing at you becuase they recognise the falshood of your accusations about me. But I just don't feel the need to go out and insult somebody. And your friends are not my ppl, as you put it. I am not anything other than a muslim.

_____________

Ya mono!!! ….Read the beginning of the article. It was truly not for u. It was for my brothers and sisters as an aid to strengthen n consolidate their iman. I proudly state on behalf of ahlu sunnah that we take whole Quran alhamdulillah not some verses for justification.
_____________


Mod - have just contradicted yourself. In the same post you said: "Now just for monotheist info I will..."

What is the need for all this my friend? We can just get on discussing the truth, whether it is me that changes to be inline with the truth or others, the fact is God will reward us all for seeking the truth.

Just in case you haven't read when my position was questioned regarding the commandment to 'obey the messenger' in relation to the rejection of hadith. I showed all brothers and sisters clearly that this is done without any need for hadith books exrternal to the Quran. And taking the absence of any response to that whatsoever shows clearly that I don't talk without Quranic foundation. (Go back a few pages and see for
yourself, at post #38).

The same happened when I was asked to show understanding of the concept of 'al-hikmah' - again no response on 'al-hikmah' after I dropped my post(#73).

You say that I you don't use just some verses for justification, implying that I don't. well I request that you find a verse that sugests that we need hadith books external to the Quran. If you can then theres a big pat on the back from me, becuase i have been asking for this all the while on this thread. If you do this, I will apologise to you and change my position. But if you can't then I suggest you just read this thread and see how things are going now and then, maybe you will begin to seek the truth when you see myself and other brothers and sisters talk in a peaceful and civilised manner on this thread. Your language doesn't support your cause, nor is it pleasing to the eye when there are seruious people here trying to seek the truth. By all means particpate, we all encourtage that, but please don't be a distraction for us all.

____________

Naah mono. I have no problem with what u r saying…u r playing…eh…sorry … gambling with the words that everyone has already noticed, even ur own ppl. Don’t panic now.
____________


Please brother Mod, I don't know what you have against me personally, but if you think I have been gambling with words then please, I request that you show me where I have gambled with words, even just one point in this thread. I will make a humble apology to you and declare that I was indeed playing with words. But if you can't show such an occasion then God is witness over all things, and he will judge with perfect justice.

____________

Ur delusions are refuted several times by my brothers but verily “Summun bukmun umyun fahum la yarjeoon”.
____________


If you had read what I said, I said: "not a single specific verse reference can be found in the whole of his post" Your post gave no chapter and verse numbers for independant
verification of the context of the verse.

____________

u r playing with words of Allah SWT…chosing one, regecting other….just

to serve the purpose
____________


If you can accuse me of rejecting verses of the Quran, then please, I ask you to show me what verses these are that you say I am rejecting, if you cannot do this then God is witness over all things.

____________

Take some antidepressant too. U'll sleep well.
____________

Brother Mod - what is the need for all this? Have I not said throughout this thread that If I am shown to be wrong then I will happily accept hadith books again? If you wanted you could have come on and discussed the topic in truth, that way you could have shown that (if indeed I am wrong in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran) i am wrong, and
i would happily accept it all. But doing what you are doing is not in justice. I humbly ask you from my heart for your forgiveness if I have said anything that offended you such that you feel it is neccessary to talk to me in this way. I myself will not take offence at anything you have said to me. I invite you to healthy discussion, as would all other brothers and sisters viewing and participating in this thread.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
09-03-2005, 06:18 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

To Monotheist

I ask permission from brother MOD to answer this one:

[well I request that you find a verse that sugests that we need hadith books external to the Quran. If you can then theres a big pat on the back from me, becuase i have been asking for this all the while on this thread. If you do this, I will apologise to you and change my position.]

How can you say this when I proved to you in Posts 42 and 50 that the Qur'an is not clear and detailed in the way that you understand it. Are you saying that Allah (SWT) ordered us to do prayers, but the He forgot (I beg His forgiveness) to give us all the details of how many prayers? How exactly to perform them? What about Zakah? and Hajj? See posts 42 & 50

How can you still be using these Holy verses:[***6:114, 7:52, 41:3, 10:15, 44:2, 10:37, 11:1, 16:89, 17:89, 18:54, 39:27***] to tell us that the Qur'an contains every possible detail of everything. And now you are also telling us that you are frustrated because nobody can answer your queries!

You keep telling us that you have done your homework! (No you haven't!).
If you really had, you would have known not to take the challenge of 'explaining' and 'interpreting' the 'letters' verses (2:1, 3:1, ...etc), since even the greatest scholars of Islam said that Allah ALONE knows what they mean. So how can you still be arguing that ALL of the Qur'an is CLEAR?

When it comes to the terms: 'Clear and Detailed' you choose to take the literal meaning and you claim that they could not possibly mean anything else. However, when it came to the term 'Hikmah' (which ALL great scholars agree means Sunnah here) you choose to say that it means the Qur'an!!.

In post 64 you did not like the fact that I said 'I do not have enough knowledge to answer everything'. Perhaps this is a major difference between you and me. I cannot disregard and ignore 1500 years worth of Companions (MABPWT), specialised Scholars ...etc and start re-inventing the wheel by re-interpreting all the verses of the Qur'an according to my own opinions! This is like trying to find your way in the dark!
Allah tells us to seek knowledge from those who know better:e.g.

4:83 "If they had only referred it to the Messenger or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have followed Satan."

The truth is that YOU are disregarding some replies by the brothers, just like you disregard some of the verses of the Holy Qur'an that you claim (so falsly!) to follow!!

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

Aamir
09-03-2005, 09:49 PM
Narrated AbuRafi': The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

"Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud

Kaarpal pandit
09-03-2005, 10:57 PM
i havn't put these posts for a long time (i know this is must my longest post i ever have done but its defnelty worth it if u can question against this.

so bro monthesist and one else who thinks that hadith is wrong, if dat is ure real name! i'm going to talk about gambling and drinking

can i ask what u fink of gambling and drinking in islam, of course in the quran it must mention something about it been haraam.
of course in the hadith it also clearly mentions this.

One of the most important objectives of Islam is to look after human welfare and ensure we avoid what is harmful. Because of this, islam permits good things and prohibits harmful things. The prohibition of intoxicants and gambling are among the laws that clearly show Islam’s concern for these matters.

Alcohol and gambling effect the society as a whole. It has the potential to destroy lives, wealth, intellect, reputation, and religion. Alcohol and gambling befogs the mind and prevents rational thinking. Alcohol alone is the cause of many road accidents and loss of countless lives. This is why Allah (SWT) in His infinite wisdom has forbidden us any sort of association with intoxicants and gambling.

Let's see what Allah (SWT) tells us about intoxicants and gambling in the Quran - Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? (4:122)

They ask you concerning wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." (2:219)

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. (5:90)

Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? (5:91)

Let's see what Prophet Muhammad said about intoxicants in the hadiths. The Quran states -Whoever obeys the Prophet, has indeed obeyed Allah. (4:80)

Many people think gambling or drinking small amounts is acceptable. However, no one ever starts with big amounts. Even a drunkard started off by drinking only one or two drinks a day! Some people think there is no harm in gambling £1-£5 on the lottery. However this is a means of allowing Shaitan (Satan) to get his foot in the door. It is much easier for Shaitan to tempt someone who gambles in small quantities compared to someone who has closed that door forever. That's why we have been told that when something causes addiction we should avoid any association with it.

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ma'idah 5:90, 91

O you who believe! intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al-Ansab (stone alters), and Al-Azlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaytaan's [Satan's] handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.

Shaytaan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So, will you not then abstain?

laters man....i know i sed make em short and snappy but i have given clear verses from the quran and the hadith.

safe y'all

monotheist
09-03-2005, 11:50 PM
Peace to all sisters and brothers in Islam.

(In response to Jamaluddine)
_________________

How can you say this when I proved to you in Posts 42 and 50 that the Qur'an is not clear and detailed in the way that you understand it. Are you saying that Allah (SWT) ordered us to do prayers, but the He forgot (I beg His forgiveness) to give us all the details of how many prayers? How exactly to perform them? What about Zakah? and Hajj? See posts 42 & 50
_________________

With all due respect brother Jamaluddine - You have not and cannot prove that God lies and doesn't really mean anything when he says that the Quran is clear and fully detailed, you cannot succeed in doing that, nobody else can succeed in doing that, and nobody ever will, becuase...

GOD DOES NOT LIE - HE MEANS WHAT HE SAYS OTHERWISE HE WOULDN'T SAY IT - HE DOESN'T SAY THINGS JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT - IF HE SAYS IT IS FULLY DETAILED, IT IS!

You keep telling me that I don't understand it in the way you do. You can't be more right, becuase I believe what he is saying, and you are finding ways round it to justify hadith books. Things like when he says that it contains all examples, he doesn't just say it contains some examples, he says clearly that it contains all examples. There are no two ways about understanding the words 'fully detailed' - when it says detailed, it means it has details, and when it says 'fully detailed' it means it has all the details. It is not a mater of understanding these words differently, it is a matter of BELIEVING GOD AS WELL AS JUST BELIEVING IN GOD. - Saying I have the wrong understanding of 'fully detailed' doesn't mean anything whatsoever, becuase there is only one understanding, and that is in BELIEVING GOD. So when he says it is 'fully detailed', I accept that, and you don't believe him thinking he didn't say these these alleged 'details' that are only found in hadith books external to the Quran. The Question comes again, do you just want to believe that becuase people that tell you that there all these other details that we need to make life complicated for ourselves, or do you want to BELIEVE GOD when he says that it is 'fully detailed'? God has infinite knowledge and is most cetainly not lazy (may the God prevent us from thinking as such). Do you not think that if we really needed these allaged 'details' that are not in the Quran, he would have spent a little bit of time telling us. The fact is, in the whole of the Quran, which is such a long book, if God wanted he could have said just a few lines about these things and they would be preserved for us all? But he has not! Obviously becuase they were never prescribed to us, and not becuase he wanted to make life hard for us and try to look at other books that are not 'fully detailed', but because they were never there in the first place. These details that have become fundamentals of religion today, if they were so central (if they were prescribed, that is), would God not tells us about these things repetitively in the Quran? - But no - they are nowhere to be found in the Quran. Becuase they were never prescribed in the first place.

As I have said before, in just the same way that I do not approve of people who reject hadith books after just finding a few false hadith, I also do not approve of people telling me that the Quran doesn't have this in it, the Quran doesn't have that in it, so it mustn't be detailed, becuase when he says that it is fully detailed and complete, we have no right to disagree with him. My advice would be to seek the truth, one has to BELIEVE GOD AS WELL AS TO BELIEVE IN GOD.

_________________

You keep telling us that you have done your homework! (No you haven't!).
If you really had, you would have known not to take the challenge of 'explaining' and 'interpreting' the 'letters' verses (2:1, 3:1, ...etc), since even the greatest scholars of Islam said that Allah ALONE knows what they mean. So how can you still be arguing that ALL of the Qur'an is CLEAR?
_________________


Then why did you issue the challenge? Why? To deliberately ask something that you thought couldn't be answered so that this discussion could be ended? It certainly seems this way.

If I hadn't accepted your so called 'challenge' all you would have done is said that since nobody can make words out of these letters, we need to look at hadith books external to the Quran to find out what is in the Quran. I showed you clearly that their significance can be understood without having to look at hadith books external to the Quran. Now if you want to believe 'greatest scholars' above God when he says that the Quran is clear, then may God show you the right path (please refer to 9:31 for your own benefit brother Jamaluddine).

_________________

When it comes to the terms: 'Clear and Detailed' you choose to take the literal meaning and you claim that they could not possibly mean anything else. However, when it came to the term 'Hikmah' (which ALL great scholars agree means Sunnah here) you choose to say that it means the Qur'an!!.
_________________


I did not 'choose to take the literal meaning' my friend - I chose to BELIEVE GOD AS WELL AS BELIEVE IN GOD. You are now trying to put down my response to a question that was asked of me a while back. If you really disagreed, then why didn't you highlight anything you saw wrong with what I said once I had put up the post? You didn't becuase you didn't have anything to say - That is fact, other wise you would have got on and said something (nor did brother alibaba, who actually raised the point that you weere so happy about!), and now when that topic is being forgotten over the time passed you are taking the opportunity to say that it was all false without any justification whatsoever! Secondly, you have just implied that I shouldn't understand 'clear and detailed' to mean 'clear and detailed' and you are telling me that you believe "ALL great scholars agree means Sunnah here". It is not anything wrong with my thinking and BELIEVING GOD AS WELL AS BELIEVING IN GOD - it is wrong with people who substitute one word for another. If you think this concept of 'sunnah' really had been prescribed, then would the God not have used the word 'Sunnah' or said 'Muhammad's (PBUH) Sunnah', he hasn't obviously becuase this is not the truth.

You said: "you choose to say that it means the Qur'an!" - I did not choose to say that 'hikmah' means the Quran, I said clearly that 'al-hikmah' meant wisdom, I was doing nothing more than highlighting the fact that the whole verse was talking about the Quran, and throughout the Quran, the Quran is referred to as 'the wisdom' ('al-hikmah' as seen in the verses highlighted by brother alibaba). I never said like your 'great scholars' that the word wisdom actually means another word, which they say is 'sunnah', I made it clear using the Quran that that verse was referring to the Quran. This is not a view, opinion, belief or thought, THIS IS FACT. It is not me that is substituting one word for another, it is your 'great scholars' that are doing this. Again, please refer to 9:31. With all due respect to them for their efforts, I do not uphold the words of 'great scholars' above the God's words.

_________________

In post 64 you did not like the fact that I said 'I do not have enough knowledge to answer everything'. Perhaps this is a major difference between you and me. I cannot disregard and ignore 1500 years worth of Companions (MABPWT), specialised Scholars ...etc and start re-inventing the wheel by re-interpreting all the verses of the Qur'an according to my own opinions! This is like trying to find your way in the dark!
_________________


****TO ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS READING THIS THREAD OR PARTICIPATING****:

Brother Jamaluddine is yet again using the technique of misquoting to prove his false point. The following is EXACTLY what is written in post #64:

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

__________________

“I am not qualified enough and do not have enough knowledge to answer some ideas that I know are

wrong.”
__________________


How can somebody ‘know’ that something is wrong without having ‘enough knowledge’ about it? Doing this may suggest that preconceived ideas, tradition and popular belief play a key role in thinking. Please don’t take offence Brother Jamaluddine, but God has given us all the power of thought, and we all have access to the Quran, hadith books, Tafsir, and anything else we might think we need, so we should all ask for God’s help and try our best to seek the truth in God’s way. It’s not a matter of memorising things and sitting at a position of authority; it’s a matter of appropriate use of the resources available to us all, whether that be in our heads or available to us in a physical form.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Brother Jamaluddine has deliberately altered his words to make it look as though I am being unreasonable. The fact that he has quoted what he wants to modify and tell us of what he said, to make it look like he actually said it, is the biggest sign for all brothers and sisters reading this thread. All I will say is that God is witness over all things, and that he will judge with perfect justice.

Brother Jamaluddine, I am deeply hurt by your accusation that I am "re-inventing the wheel by re-interpreting all the verses of the Qur'an according to my own opinions!". This is false. I am infact exposing the true message of the Quran. Nowhere have I added any words to the verses, and if you can prove that I have then I shall apologise to you for all brothers and sisters to see, if not then the God is witness over all things. I am not adding anything to God's word, in fact I am removing the additions made to God words by rejecting hadith books external to the Quran. Again, I would like to express my standing on referring to "specialised Scholars ...etc". I am fearful of being of the people described by the God in 9:31.

Just because your 'great scholars' have been say something for a long period of time (and disagreeing amongst themselves resulting in sects and numerous divisions within sects, which are condemned by God on numerous occasions throughout the Quran) doesn't mean that we should all follow them. We are not here to be sheep, we are here with the duty to seek the truth and BELIEVE GOD IN WHAT HE TELLS US AS WELL AS TO BELIEVE IN GOD. Just becuase 'great scholars' sit at a position of authority doesn't mean they're right, in just the same way a christian or budhist clergyman sits at a position of authority. The truth is accessible for us all, we don't need to make 'great scholars' a shortcut to getting to heaven by believing what they say. We can never be certain who is on the right path and who is not, God knows this and all else, above having any partners, be he glorified above all. Just becuase I myself am rejecting hadith books doesn't mean people go out and reject them, it is our duty to seek the truth and reject falsehood, and that is how we can really accept the God's words as the 'best hadith'. Indeed we are trying to find our way in the dark, but I want to turn the lights on to see where we are and you, brother Jamaluddine, want to keep them switched off!

_________________

Allah tells us to seek knowledge from those who know better:e.g. 4:83 "If they had only referred it to the Messenger or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have followed Satan."
_________________


Thats exactly what I am trying to do here, I became pretty convinced that the right way is to reject hadith books external to the Quran, but I still thought it necessary to come here to find out why people think otherwise, seeking to benefit from what I could be told on this forum. To be perfectly honest I have enjoyed talking to people on this website becuase there are people here who really do want to discuss the truth, whatever they may think it to be, it has increased my faith in the Quran and it has also increased my knowledge. But in full honesty I don't think you support your cause by using the technique of misquoting to try and put me down. Unfortunaely for you though, with the God's will, I will not let that happen. I seek knowledge from those who may know better, but I do not approve of going to somebody and taking everything they say as the truth, as perhaps you do with your 'great scholars'. I am not here to advertise my beliefs or anything, I just want to know what people have to say about rejecting hadith books external to the Quran, and learn from the knowledge available, not to blindly accept the what people tell me.

_________________

The truth is that YOU are disregarding some replies by the brothers, just like you disregard some

of the verses of the Holy Qur'an that you claim (so falsly!) to follow!!
_________________


I am most certainly not disregarding what 'the brothers', as you put it, are saying, I am simply stating that I am here to seek the truth regarding hadith books external to the Quran, finding out what the God says in the Quran comes from reading the Quran, not from asking me what it says. Only once it is established that we should or should not accept hadith books external to the Quran can we go on and find out exactly what we are to do with our source/sources of religious guidance. I understand peoples concerns, but using the details of 'salaat'as an argument against us being able to accept that the Quran contains all the details we need is not logical. Only once we accept the Quran as the best hadith which contains all details and explanations, only once that belief is established, only then can we go on and have the meanings explained to us by God himself (7:32). Otherwise we truly are in the dark.

As for your accusation of me disregarding some verses of the Quran...

---I CHALENGE YOU JAMALUDDINE (In the same way that you challenged me earlier in this thread), to come up with a list of the Quran's verses which you think I disregard in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran.---

Unlike your challenge, which was most certainly given with the intention of asking a question which you thought could not be answered, his 'challenge' is perfectly reasonable. I have been asking for such verses from the point where I came onto this thread, but you seem to think that I want to reject parts of the Quran. False are your accusations, false are your decpetive tactics of misquoting, false are your approaches of disrepecting other peoples views, and false are you.


*****[[[[[TO BROTHER JAMALUDDINE]]]]]*****

It is clear from what you write in your posts that you have come on this forum onlt to judge people (as identified by brother Amir Khan in post #59), and it does not matter to you if you decied to quote me wildly out of context and throw unfounded accusations at me. You consistently misquote me to try and prevent people from taking me seriously (as seen clearly in my post #52), and you misquote yourself to cover up your falsehood, as I have exposed in this post. If put in my position, most would demand an apology for what you do and your intentions, however I will not ask this of you, becuase for one thing I know that you will not, and besides that, I am not here to waste my time in a mud-slinging match, I hope you realise that. Consider this an expression of displeasure, or a statement declaring your falsehood, if you continue your campaign against me personally, (whether that is through misquoting me wildly out of context or covering up what you have said yourself, or any other deceptive tactic you may feel like trying ), I will with God's will stop responding to your posts, and all brothers and sisters reading this thread will know why. I suggest that you straighten your ways before you come on and try to judge people. And don't try to tell me that in post #87 you modified your words by accident, becuase it is clear from your use of quotation marks that you were trying to show the readers that that was what you said. Please take no offence, I am only stating what all brothers and sisters reading this thread can see clearly from what you write.

May the God show us all the path to righteousness.

Peace to all brothers and sisters,
Monotheist.

monotheist
10-03-2005, 12:11 AM
Peace to all sisters and brothers in Islam.

Dear brother KP, I know I said that I wouldn't respond to you before 16th of March but I will respond to post #48 becuase you are talking perfect sense!

See even though there is clear evidence in the Quran and in simple human logic, some people say that alcohol and gambling aren't prohibited, which is totally false. I wholeheartedly agree with you KP. Even verses from the just the Quran are enough to state this. I look forward to working with you on this thread brother KP, God willing we shall reach the same conclusion through health discussion.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

alibaba
10-03-2005, 12:11 AM
i have come out of my early retirement from this forum just to get an answer to a question....


can ppl just keep their posts to themselves till I at least get an answer to this question!!!

maybe broda montheist is avoiding it...but it highly seems unlikely...rather most ppl are just provoking and attacking him.....

TO BROTHER MONTHEIST....CAN YOU JUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION IN A DIRECT MANNER...I WOULD BE TRULY GRATEFUL



how can you pray five times a day w/o ever reading a hadith?? the Quran does not*** mention the timings of the five prayers!!!!....plz answer this question....specifically this question

and ...
second question
what do you say when you are in prayer....this again...is not outlined in the Quran....

please donot generalize my questions...these questions are very specific and require a very very specific response...ie.....answer the question

and these are 2 of the many specifics...that are not outlined in the Quran but are derived from what the prophet did ......!!

salaams

monotheist
11-03-2005, 12:55 AM
Peace to all sisters and brothers in Islam.

Brother alibaba, I'd been writing a post just for you to answer your question as specifically as possible, but I found that my fingertips were dying from the length of the post, and believe me, if I myself am saying that it was loooooong..., then trust me it was loooooong... And even at the point when I realised that sunniforum.com is going to need a few gigabytes to store this post, I wasn't even half way through! So what I am doing now instead is directing you to a few locations on the internet from where you'll be able to see clearly what 'salaat' is.

It is said that people who reject hadith books external to the Quran are not sure on the topic of 'salaat', where some do it 3 times, and some don't at all. It has only been a month or two since I made my decision to reject hadith books external to the Quran, and up till a while back I was doing the ritual prayer 3 times a day. But I was somehow not satisfied so I sought the truth further and I realised that those who reject hadith books external to the Quran are a bit confused at the start through all the purifcation that takes place, but then they find the strength to reject all tradition in support of God's system of life, just the way I have done, because now I abstain totally from 'ritual prayer'. This may seem extremely controversial or even absurd to some, but it is the truth. I have read exactly what 'salaat' is and have benefitted greatly from it.

Before you access the following links I must advise brothers and sisters to keep a very open mind, becuase it will become clear that we have all been in great darkness. All I will say is that we all have to be careful not to commit idolatry. I must warn you in advance that these links will cut through the grain of the traditions of today and expose the truth, and many of the readers will without a doubt be alarmed by it. I had no intention of highlighting this, because I did not come here to promote my beliefs, I only came here to seek the discard or confirm my belief in the rejection of hadith books external to the Quran. But if this discussion will progress by me doing so, then I will do this to answer brother alibaba's question in full specifics, as he has rightfully requested.

There have been many criticisms of what is presented here and it is clear that the message is the truth. The author of the material publishes further editions in light of criticism, but the message given doesn't change, as it is the truth. I hope that nobody thinks I am abusing their beliefs in providing these links. I must assert again, that the reader will need to be open minded and willing to seek the truth, and be ready to reject certain traditions and preconcieved ideas in the path to God. Please be patient when reading what is presented here, it may take a long while to do so.

http://aididsafar.com

http://aididsafar.com/Arab_Conspiracy_Against_Islam.pdf


Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam,
Monotheist.

monotheist
11-03-2005, 01:09 AM
Peace brother alibaba

"maybe broda montheist is avoiding it...but it highly seems unlikely...rather most ppl are just provoking and attacking him....."

Thanks for being so considerate.
I look forward to hearing from you again.

Monotheist.

fnaeem
11-03-2005, 08:08 AM
page 17 of page 214 of the document you linked.

three quotations from this page.

"It is simply a sanction of universal values listing righteous deeds to be upheld by all. In simple terms, it is a master plan for a productive life"

"There are no religious institutions, no religious obligations nor ritual prayers."

Inherently, all the prophets, messengers, and His servants – be they men or women – are required to serve God through their respective individual deeds both in substance and spirit. Islam is concerned with deliberate and conscious obedience to God, not mindless automated behaviour. His message conveyed to us by His messengers simply says: ‘You shall not serve other than Him’. Within the framework of those words lies the truth of Islam.
We did not send any messengers before you but with the message: there is no god except Me, therefore you shall serve Me. (21:25)


how shall I serve him ?
If I were to serve him in any way shape or form, in any action.
would that not become religious obligation upon me. That violates principle 2 from your argument (listed above).

The mere act of upholding these universal values (point 1) , will deem this act of upholding a religious obligation. But this document says that there are no religious obligations. So why should I uphold these universal values, lest I commit a religious obligation.

e.g.

universal value = do not kill.
if i dont kill, it becomes a religious obligation that I dont kill, then I must kill.
because if I dont kill I will commit a religious obligation

your point of not having any religious obligation, leaves me in a same, if not a worse state than an animal.

Make sincere dua to Allah that he help you out.

Lakum deenukum waliya deeni
(To you be your Way, and to me mine)
My first and last post on this topic.

Faisal

P.S
you may want to skip on the dua
( oops cant do that Arab custom or sunnah of RasulAllah (pbuh) )

Jamaluddine
11-03-2005, 11:40 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

To monotheist

I will come back to your 'challenge', but first....

First of all I truly forgive you for getting well out of line and saying what you said (this is to stop iblis from succeding in doing what he is doing between us). I hold no grudge against you, and I am not judging you!

I said a few posts back that I am direct and frank, so please bear with it a little bit.


[most would demand an apology for what you do and your intentions, however I will not ask this of you, becuase for one thing I know that you will not]

Rest assured about my intentions. If I seem to be harsh on you, then I will prove you wrong by apologising: I am Sorry.

I don't change my words, I just correct them to try to make them clearer. For example in my last post I said: 'This is like trying to find your way in the dark!'. What I was trying to say is: 'This is like trying to find your way in the dark without a torch!'. (The torch being the Sunnah of our Prophet PBUH).

The reason why I may seem to go back and start answering posts from days ago, is that I don't have as much time as you have. By the time I find time to get onto the forum, a few posts will have been added. And then I have to find enough time to read your (looong) posts, let alone answer them!

Now..... back to your challenge....

You must show me that you are serious about your search for the truth. If I give you some evidence that a Muslim person should get his/her islamic teachings and practices from the Qur'an and Sunnah (Hadith ...etc), will you change your ways and become an ACCEPTOR of Sunnah and Hadith (of Prophet Muhammad PBUH) ???

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

monotheist
11-03-2005, 05:22 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters

Brother Jamaluddine,

________________

Now..... back to your challenge....

You must show me that you are serious about your search for the truth. If I give you some evidence that a Muslim person should get his/her islamic teachings and practices from the Qur'an and Sunnah (Hadith ...etc), will you change your ways and become an ACCEPTOR of Sunnah and Hadith (of Prophet Muhammad PBUH) ???
________________


Of course I will! My friend Jamaluddine, I have been asking for this all the way through my time on this thread! Thats what I am here for. Obviously I'd be a fool if I decided to reject the truth for my own opinion, there' be no logic in that. Trust me, I am as ever prepared to change my ways to reach the truth. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam,
Monotheist.

monotheist
11-03-2005, 06:09 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters

(In response to brother fnaeem)

___________________

"It is simply a sanction of universal values listing righteous deeds to be upheld by all. In simple terms, it is a master plan for a productive life"

"There are no religious institutions, no religious obligations nor ritual prayers."

Inherently, all the prophets, messengers, and His servants – be they men or women – are required to serve God through their respective individual deeds both in substance and spirit. Islam is concerned with deliberate and conscious obedience to God, not mindless automated behaviour. His message conveyed to us by His messengers simply says: ‘You shall not serve other than Him’. Within the framework of those words lies the truth of Islam.
We did not send any messengers before you but with the message: there is no god except Me, therefore you shall serve Me. (21:25)


how shall I serve him ?
If I were to serve him in any way shape or form, in any action.
would that not become religious obligation upon me. That violates principle 2 from your argument (listed above).
___________________


The author isn’t telling us not to serve God, he is simply stating the fact that Islam is not a religion; it is a way of life. The obligations exist, but they are not ‘religious’ as such.

___________________

your point of not having any religious obligation, leaves me in a same, if not a worse state than an animal.

Make sincere dua to Allah that he help you out.
__________________

Firstly, the point being made is that of the distinction between religious obligations, such as singing and dancing in front of a piece of stone as the Hindus do as in the obvious idol worship, and God given obligations such as being kind to parents, feeding the poor, giving to charity.

Thanks for your advice regarding supplication to the God who can help me out. I always do that, and to make sure that I am not misled I have even come on this forum to people with totally opposing views to see if my views stand up to criticism.

__________________

P.S
you may want to skip on the dua
( oops cant do that Arab custom or sunnah of RasulAllah (pbuh) )
__________________

Oh come on, why did you have to destroy a perfectly civilised expression of views by talking like that at the end? Surely we can work together to reach the truth, even muslim’s and non-muslims work together in the world today, why can’t we, its because of this lack of unity that we are not succeeding as a people.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam,
Monotheist.

fnaeem
12-03-2005, 07:30 AM
The author isn’t telling us not to serve God, he is simply stating the fact that Islam is not a religion; it is a way of life. The obligations exist, but they are not ‘religious’ as such.


Merriam Webster defines the word religous as
relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

You claim, that these obligations exist but are not religious.
Let me write your quote again.

The author isnt telling us to not to serve God, he is simply stating the fact that Islam is not a religion; its a way of life. The obligations exist, but they are not manifesting any faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.


an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity = one god


the opposite of one is either none or many.

Your quote can then be expanded into one of the following.

The author isnt telliing us to not to serve God, he is simply stating the fact that Islam is not a religion; its a way of life. The obligations exist, but they are manifesting faithful devotion to many realities or deities.


OR

The author isnt telling us to not to serve God, he is simply stating the fact that Islam is not a religion; its a way of life. The obligations exist, but they
are manifesting faithful devotion to no reality nor deity.


Athiesm or polytheism, choice is yours.

Btw I am not calling you polythiest nor athiest, you: I believe, still claim shahada. I am just saying the choice is yours, based upon your statement.

monotheist
12-03-2005, 12:19 PM
fnaeem, brother, these are not my statements man, I didn't read that article/book for the guys personal comments, I read for a clearer exposition of the Quran, its better if we spend our valuable time discussing the hadith books external to the Quran rather than going round in circles on somebody's wording. I'm happy that you want to discuss the issue. Pleased to me you fnaeem.

Monotheist.

fnaeem
12-03-2005, 02:16 PM
these are not his personal comments. It was in the main body of his article.

Do you not find it disturbing that a book ( its 214 pages long) that you are reading to help you ease your understanding of the Quran, a simple lexical replacement of words truly exposes the path that this book is leading you upon.

You cannot accuse me that I twisted his words. I just did a simple explanation based upon the dictionary.

Okay another simple question.,

Do you eat pork ?

One word answer please. Yes or no.

monotheist
12-03-2005, 02:40 PM
Peace brother fnaeem.

"these are not his personal comments. It was in the main body of his article. "

I'm not bothered about what he's saying, I'm only reading it for the verses.

"Do you not find it disturbing that a book ( its 214 pages long) that you are reading to help you ease your understanding of the Quran, a simple lexical replacement of words truly exposes the path that this book is leading you upon."

This book is not leading me anywhere my friend, it is God's words that lead us.

"You cannot accuse me that I twisted his words. I just did a simple explanation based upon the dictionary."

I have never felt the need to accuse you of anything man! I never said anything like that lol.

"Okay another simple question.,

Do you eat pork ?

One word answer please. Yes or no."

No.

I see there is some kind of friction coming on here. I think we are going off on a bit of a tangent here. I think it is best if we stick to the discussion of the rejection of hadith books external to the Quran. I understand how you feel about this article/book, I felt exactly the same way when I came across it at the start.

I would like to ask you for input towards this discussion on hadith book rejection, it will be more fruitful on this thread. I thank you for your kind contributions that you have made already and those that are to come. Please don't think I'm attacking anyone, I only highlighted that book/article becuase I felt it best answered brother alibaba's questions. Are we friends now?

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam
Monotheist.

monotheist
12-03-2005, 02:45 PM
BTW, am I right in thinking 'pork' is from a pig? To be honest I'm not too sure what all these things are, like 'bacon' and 'bolognese', and all the rest of it. I'm not sure whether they're from cows or pigs or what. I'll stick to my lamb and chicken, I love chicken. I'd like to try turkey as well some day...

fnaeem
12-03-2005, 04:46 PM
yeah let me rephrase.

do you eat pig meat ?
please yes or no only.

monotheist
12-03-2005, 08:17 PM
My answer: No, never have, never will.

monotheist
13-03-2005, 02:17 PM
Leaving Bacon and Bolonaise aside...

Does anybody have any verses which may lead us to believe that we realy do need the hadith books external to the Quran? (Still awaiting Jamaluddine's response).

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

Jamaluddine
16-03-2005, 10:51 AM
Assalamu alaikum

TO ALL HADITH AND SUNNAH ACCEPTORS, LOVERS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH), please read ……….

As promised to Monotheist (whom I truly hope that Allah will guide to see the Truth and FOLLOW it), here is my reply to explain the importance of Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. I apologize for the length of this post, but it is necessary: These people are not rejecting one or two Hadiths, they are rejecting ALL of them! And on top of that they hold many misconceptions and distorted understanding of the verses of the Holy Qur’an that I wanted to try and correct with Allah’s help (SWT).

EVERYTHING THAT I AM WRITING HERE IS NOT MY OWN OPINION OR INTERPRETATION, IT CAN BE TRACED BACK AND CONFIRMED.

ANY REJECTOR WHO (AFTER READING THIS) STILL CHOOSES TO KEEP ON ARGUING AND CONTENDING AGAINST ALLAH (SWT)’S WORDS AND VERSES, THEN ALLAH (SWT) SAYS:

[8:13] " This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: if any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment".

[18:17] he whom Allah guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray; for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way

I AM NOT JUDGING ANYTHING (such as Qur’an translations) OR ANYBODY. ALLAH (SWT) KNOWS BEST!

First misconception:

REJECTORS (i.e. people who reject the Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH) are confused. One of their biggest confusions comes from the translation (and not tafseer) of the word ‘Mufassal’ in Holy verses such as 6:114, 7:52 …etc. which they think means ‘explained in detail’. Only Yusuf Ali translates it to ‘explained in detail’:

006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
PICKTHAL: Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
SHAKIR: Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Another example: in Verse 7:52, only Yusuf Ali mentions the expression ‘explained in detail’, and only Shakir mentions the word ‘clear’:

007.052
YUSUFALI: For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
PICKTHAL: Verily We have brought them a Scripture which We expounded with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have made clear with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Another example: in Verse 18:54, only Yusuf Ali mentions the expression ‘in detail’:

018.054
YUSUFALI: We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.
PICKTHAL: And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

All the mufassiroon (authors of tafseer books, not translators) approach the verses above (and hence the terms mufassal, tafsilan, yufassil …etc) in the same way: They all agree that in these verses, Allah (SWT) is telling us that the Qur’an has come to distinguish (and clearly separate, which is the real meaning of these terms) between TRUTH and FALSHOOD, between RIGHT and WRONG. Allah (SWT) is NOT telling us that the Qur’an contains every detail of everything, nor that it is easy to understand! Otherwise He wouldn’t have instructed our Prophet PBUH to EXPLAIN the Revelations:

]][16:44] (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest EXPLAIN CLEARLY TO MEN WHAT IS SENT FOR THEM, and that they may give thought.[/[/SIZE][/B]U]

As I explained in my previous posts, if the Qur’an was fully clear and detailed, then where are the details about prayers, Zakah, Hajj …etc (see posts 42 and 50 page 5).

Allah (SWT) tells us that some of the Qur’an is clear, and some is NOT:

[3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it are verses basic or fundamental Clear (in meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not entirely clear. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
Second misconception:

REJECTORS say: “Why should we follow the Prophet’s Hadith and Sunnah?” and the answer is: “BECAUSE ALLAH (SWT) HAS ORDERED US TO DO THAT!” Allah (SWT) orders us IN MANY VERSES to obey and follow the Prophet PBUH, but He (SWT) does not specify that we only have to follow the Qur’an

[59:7] What the Messenger teaches you, TAKE IT, and what he forbids you, AVOID DOING IT. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

[3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[3:32] Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

[3:132] And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy

[4:13] Those are limits set by Allah; those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (forever) and that will be the Supreme achievement.
[4:14] But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: and they shall have a humiliating punishment.

[7:157] "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will prosper."

[7:158] Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believed in Allah and His Words: FOLLOW HIM that (so) ye may be guided."

Allah (SWT) did not say here: “Follow him when it comes to the Qur’an only”

[4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination

[33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.

[8:20] O ye who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

[8:24] O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.

[24:54] Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. [U]The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

Third misconception:

Some Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS have another problem with the last bit of the Holy verse above [24:54], simply because they misunderstand it:

Allah (SWT) is NOT saying here (as they claim): “The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message), and therefore should not speak anything else, and should not utter any words other than the Qur’an”

Allah (SWT) here is rather encouraging and appeasing the Prophet PBUH, He is (indirectly) addressing the Prophet PBUH and saying to him: “Do not worry O Messenger; your task is only to deliver the Message, and not to force it on people. If they reject any part of your Message, then it is not your fault, I (SWT) will deal with them in due time”.
And Allah (SWT) confirms this in many verses in the Qur’an, such as:

[4:80] He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
And…
[88:21] Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder.
[88:22] You are not a watcher over them;
[88:23] But if any turn away and reject Allah,
[88:24] Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment,
[88:25] For to Us will be their return;
[88:26] Then it will be for Us to call them to account.

Notice here how three different translators have chosen different wordings in trying to deal with this (sensitive) Holy verse [24.54]. This is why I said in my previous posts that (if confused) it is best to return to the original Arabic text; you will find for example that the word ‘duty’ (wajib) is not even mentioned here. (Confirm this by reading what Tafseer specialists, such as Ibn Katheer …etc say about this verse)

[24.54]
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
PICKTHAL: Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message) plainly.
SHAKIR: Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Messenger but clear delivering (of the message).


Fourth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “We don’t HAVE TO love him, he was only a man like any of us, the only difference is that he happened to bring us the Qur’an”

And Allah (SWT) tells us to love the Messenger PBUH more than anybody and anything else that He (SWT) has ever created:

[9:24] Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline; or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, Or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause - then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.


Fifth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “How can he be an example for us when the Qur’an blames him for making mistakes?” and they always bring up verses:

[80:1] (The Prophet) frowned and turned away, [80:2] Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
[8:67] It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: and Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

And the answer is: The prophet PBUH is not known to have made any mistake throughout his life, because Allah (SWT) has protected Prophets PBUT from making the kind of mistakes that you and I make.
However, all Prophets PBUT made ‘errors of judgement’ (Ijtihad) (If you read the stories behind the above verses you will understand that a judgement was made), and we are very grateful to Allah (SWT) that the Prophet PBUH made these errors of judgement and that they are mentioned in the Qur’an for a purpose:
a) to show us that the Prophet PBUH did not invent the Qur’an (as some people say), because if he did, he would probably have omitted these verses
b) to show us that only Allah (SWT) alone is perfect in every sense, and therefore is alone worthy of worship. If Allah (SWT) did not mention these verses (as it could easily have been done), then the vast majority of this Ummah (Muslim nation) would have been worshipping The prophet PBUH, since he would have been quite perfect!
c) To show us that the Prophet PBUH was subjected to the strictest scrutiny by Allah (SWT), as is indicated in verse [5:67] and [69:44-47] below.

It must be noted here that the Prophet PBUH has NEVER been recorded to have said any words that did not conform to his prophethood. Allah (SWT) says in this matter that everything that the Prophet ever said was revealed to him, and this includes all his Hadiths:

[53:3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
[53:4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

[5:67] O Apostle! proclaim the (Message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His Mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
[69:44] And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,
[69:45] We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,
[69:46] Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.
[69:47] And not one of you could have withheld Us from him.


Sixth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “We don’t accept anything from him other than the Qur’an”

But the Prophet PBUH made many decisions every single day of his life, and these are recorded as Hadith and Sunnah, and Allah SWT backs the Prophet’s decisions and instructs us to accept them and follow them:

[4:65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

[33:36] It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.


Seventh misconception:

[3:164] Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture AND Wisdom, while before that, they had been in manifest error.

Here: Allah SWT mentions TWO distinct things, since there is an AND between them. Scripture means the Qur’an, AND Wisdom means Sunnah.


Eighth misconception:

Some Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH should not be mentioned in Adhan (call to the prayer) or anywhere during one’s prayer (e.g. Tashahhud). They say that this would put the Prophet’s name at the same level as Allah’s.

Answer: In how many verses in the Qur’an does Allah SWT mention the Messenger after His name: many, many…. (see second misconception above for example)

And…

[8:1] They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(Such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: so fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."


Ninth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH is nobody special, just like any other prophet,

Answer: Do you know of anybody other than our Prophet PBUH that Allah SWT has ORDERED US to say prayers and blessings upon?

[33:56] Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect

[33:57] Those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.
I AM SURE THAT THERE IS MORE TO BE SAID, BUT………

NEED I SAY MORE???

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

monotheist
16-03-2005, 02:45 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.


NEED I SAY MORE???

I'll let you decide my friend, after I put up my next looooooooonnnnnngggggg post. Please be patient.

Monotheist.

monotheist
21-03-2005, 01:47 PM
Monotheist's post is coming...

monotheist
21-03-2005, 10:09 PM
Peace to all sisters and brothers is Islam.

Apologies for my absence lately, my computer has been offline for some time now. Here’s a loooooooooonnnnggggg post in response to Jamaluddine. As Jamaluddine said – [I apologize for the length of this post, but it is necessary].

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These people are not rejecting one or two Hadiths, they are rejecting ALL of them!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have told you before that this is not a mud-slinging match, if you cannot contribute without being enthusiastic about throwing accusations then I suggest you give your keyboard a break and just watch your screen while decent and respectable people carry on this discussion with me. I do not reject all hadith; I accept the best hadith, which is the Quran. This smashes your unfounded theory to bits. So your exclamation marks and capital letters will have no illusive effect on sincere believers reading this thread. Do not bother saying this again Jamaluddine. Anyway, even Sunni scholars reject way more than ‘one or two’ hadiths because they are obviously not true – would you class them under your category of ‘Rejectors’ as well then? Please sit down and think about what your about to write before you do so in future.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
TO ALL HADITH AND SUNNAH ACCEPTORS, LOVERS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The reader is advised to look at who I address my posts to, and who Jamaluddine addresses his posts to. But lets not go off on a tangent with people who have no respect for individual beliefs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[ANY REJECTOR WHO (AFTER READING THIS) STILL CHOOSES TO KEEP ON ARGUING AND CONTENDING AGAINST ALLAH (SWT)’S WORDS AND VERSES, THEN ALLAH (SWT) SAYS:]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have abstained from labelling anyone as anything throughout this discussion, but it appears that Jamaluddine cannot contain his urge to use the labelling technique and constant shouting in capital letters to polish up his posts and make them look convincing, when in fact they are not, as with the God’s permission I will show in this post. On with the show…

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First misconception:

REJECTORS (i.e. people who reject the Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH) are confused. One of their biggest confusions comes from the translation (and not tafseer) of the word ‘Mufassal’ in Holy verses such as 6:114, 7:52 …etc. which they think means ‘explained in detail’. Only Yusuf Ali translates it to ‘explained in detail’:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On one hand it is being implied that the ‘Confused’ ‘REJECTORS’ have the wrong meaning of ‘Mufassal’, then it is being said that [Only Yusuf Ali translates it to ‘explained in detail’]. Jamaluddine, I hope you realise who is confused. Anyway, leaving Jamaluddine’s self contradictions aside, lets go to see what he is trying to say.

He’s trying to say that “explained in detail” is miles different to “fully explained”. Well the point is that God isn’t just saying things for the fun of it, so we can recite the Quran in Arabic and be happy. If it is explained, then we needn’t turn to hadith books for an explanation. Simple. Anyone who reads this passage will realise that the God is saying that the general point is that the Quran is self-sufficient, no matter how translators word it. So Jamaluddine’s ‘First Misconception’ is actually his own misconception.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another example: in Verse 7:52, only Yusuf Ali mentions the expression ‘explained in detail’, and only Shakir mentions the word ‘clear’:

007.052
YUSUFALI: For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which [[[[We explained in detail]]]],- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
PICKTHAL: Verily We have brought them a Scripture which We [[[[expounded with knowledge]]]], a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have made clear with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

All Jamaluddine is doing is using Shakir’s translation to make it look as through there really isn’t really much to the Quran. The message is the same; the Quran is explained/expounded, even when Shakir writes ‘clear with knowledge’ (Although somehow Jamaluddine has decided only to put in bold the word ‘clear’ instead of ‘clear with knowledge’, please take a look at his post before he edits it).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another example: in Verse 18:54, only Yusuf Ali mentions the expression ‘in detail’:

018.054
YUSUFALI: We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.
PICKTHAL: And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The God talks about explaining/displaying EVERY KIND OF SIMILITUDE/ALL MANNER OF SIMILITUDES/EVERY KIND OF EXAMPLE. The truth is seen in all of these translations. Perhaps Jamaluddine ought to start looking at the whole verse instead of just the first quarter.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Otherwise He wouldn’t have instructed our Prophet PBUH to EXPLAIN the Revelations:

[16:44] (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest EXPLAIN CLEARLY TO MEN WHAT IS SENT FOR THEM, and that they may give thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder why in this case Jamaluddine has deliberately chosen to give only one translation whilst going overboard with the bold and underline formatting? (Take a look at this section on his post, before he edits it) Lets explore that shall we…

016.044
YUSUFALI: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
PICKTHAL: With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
SHAKIR: With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

Unlike Jamaluddine, I shall look at the whole verse. God talks of ‘clear’ books/writings/scriptures. Then Muhammad (PBUH) is told to [explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them] – Now putting the verse into perspective, is the God going to say that the Quran is clear and then in the same sentence say that it needs to be explained? No. God never contradicts himself. Lets put this into perspective. When the prophet (PBUH) recited the Quran to people, would he have just gone up to someone and without saying a word begun to recite the Quran? Obviously not. He would firstly tell them what it is he is reciting, and say that this Quran has been revealed to him from the God, and then begin recitation. So he explains to mankind what it is that has been revealed. It must be noted that the verse actually says ‘explain [to mankind] what has been revealed’, and not just ‘explain what has been revealed’. When read, this shows clearly that the content of Quran isn’t being explained, Muhammad (PBUH) is only explaining to people what exactly it is to tell people what the Quran is and to raise awareness of its existence, not explaining the content of the Quran. Sadly, Jamaluddine’s formatting fuss didn’t pay off.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I explained in my previous posts, if the Qur’an was fully clear and detailed, then where are the details about prayers, Zakah, Hajj …etc (see posts 42 and 50 page 5).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine, in saying the above quote, has clearly admitted his lack of belief in the verses which say clearly without any ambiguity whatsoever that the Quran is clear and detailed, by making reference to details that he thinks God deliberately missed out, when in fact they never existed and were never prescribed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Allah (SWT) tells us that some of the Qur’an is clear, and some is NOT:

[3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it are verses basic or fundamental Clear (in meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not entirely clear. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At this point I have to say I have lost even the least bit of faith in Jamaluddine, and he should feel extremely ashamed for the falsehood he has tried to transmit by editing the verse to his own interests. Firstly, he finds that his point is not supported by any of the translators he has consistently made reference to in this thread, so he goes out and finds one which does give him a bit of leeway. And even then he resorts to doing a crop off job of God’s words! The following is the full translation from which he has extracted what he wanted without saying that he has only displayed a portion of it …

3:7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Jamaluddine may say now that he has only given a portion of the verse that is relevant, but anybody who reads the whole verse can tell that the rest of the verse that I have highlighted in just as relevant as the rest of it. Even if we do take it that he only showed the relevant bit of it, why didn’t he put a few dots after or anything like that? Or actually tell us that this is an extract of the verse. He didn’t, and his intentions are now blatantly clear. The readers are requested to look at a few other translations. But before we do, I would request all brothers and sisters to pause for a moment and think as to whether the God would really give us a manual for life, which is not clear and only God knows what it means? What would be the point of sending it to us? The following are full (not selectively edited by Jamaluddine) translations of 3:7…

YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are [[[allegorical]]]. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is [[[allegorical]]], seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but NO ONE KNOWS ITS HIDDEN MEANINGS EXCEPT ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) [[[allegorical]]]. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is [[[allegorical]]] seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. NONE KNOWETH ITS EXPLANATION SAVE ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE OF SOUND INSTRUCTION say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are [[[allegorical]]]; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is [[[allegorical]]], seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. BUT NONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH, AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY ROOTED IN KNOWLEDGE say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Every one of these translations says ‘allegorical’, even Shakir (whom Jamaluddine has consistently been using to put up weak arguments which I have already dealt with) translated it as allegorical. And the fact is that these allegorical verses are understood by the God and those with knowledge. So Jamaluddine has again been proven wrong by the God. I sincerely hope he repents for misquoting from the Quran, by cutting the end of the verse to prove to us all that he cannot be trusted. This is not an accusation. This is fact, because Jamaluddine has consistently proved it to us all throughout this thread, including what he has just done by doing a cropping job of the Quran. It has been made clear again to all brothers and sisters contributing or reading this thread that whatever Jamaluddine’s beliefs are, he is full to the brim of lies and deception. This shouldn’t offend anybody, because this is true and Jamaluddine has provided proofs for this throughout his posts in this thread. I sincerely hope he repents and evaluates himself.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Second misconception:

REJECTORS say: “Why should we follow the Prophet’s Hadith and Sunnah?” and the answer is: “BECAUSE ALLAH (SWT) HAS ORDERED US TO DO THAT!” Allah (SWT) orders us IN MANY VERSES to obey and follow the Prophet PBUH, but He (SWT) does not specify that we only have to follow the Qur’an

[59:7] What the Messenger teaches you, TAKE IT, and what he forbids you, AVOID DOING IT. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Will Jamaluddine ever decide to read the Quran? What was the prophet (PBUH) giving to people? The Quran, the very book that contains this verse. Ah, but Jamaluddine thinks that if Muhammad (PBUH) is prohibiting something then that means it is not in the Quran and in the hadith books external to the Quran. Well let’s put him right then. Lets take 2:173 for example. Muhammad (PBUH) says…

2:173
YUSUFALI: He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Here, it is clear for anybody who can read that it is Muhammad (PBUH) who is telling us what is prohibited. This is just one example from the Quran. Another smashing blow from the God.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[3:32] Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

[3:132] And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy

[4:13] Those are limits set by Allah; those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (forever) and that will be the Supreme achievement.
[4:14] But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: and they shall have a humiliating punishment.

[7:157] "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will prosper."

[7:158] Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believed in Allah and His Words: FOLLOW HIM that (so) ye may be guided."

Allah (SWT) did not say here: “Follow him when it comes to the Qur’an only”

[4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination

[33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.

[8:20] O ye who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

[8:24] O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.

[24:54] Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine, in case you can’t remember, I have answered this in my response to brother Pako in post 38. To refresh memories, I would recommend that brothers and sisters take another glance at that post.

Jamaluddine said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Allah (SWT) did not say here: “Follow him when it comes to the Qur’an only”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If your so happy about saying this, then you find me a single verse or portion of a verse which tells us to use hadith books external to the Quran. The truth is Jamaluddine; nowhere in the Quran does it say “Uphold Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih…” If you really think you can carry on this discussion without covering old ground instead of making decent contributions then please do go ahead, otherwise let other decent and respectable brothers and sisters discuss this. Anyway, who are we following by accepting and believing the Quran, the God’s words? The Buddha? Spiderman?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Third misconception:

Some Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS have another problem with the last bit of the Holy verse above [24:54], simply because they misunderstand it:

Allah (SWT) is NOT saying here (as they claim): “The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message), and therefore should not speak anything else, and should not utter any words other than the Qur’an”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is you Jamaluddine who has a problem with the ending of 24:54. Lets look at it to show why. The bit Jamaluddine is talking about is…

[[[The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).]]]

Firstly, one would easily realise that it says [[[[[the]]]]] clear message – one specific entity. Now what was the God giving us through Muhammad’s (PBUH)? He was sending us [[[[[THE]]]]] Message. This is confirmed by the God throughout the Quran. Lets look at…

7:79
YUSUFALI: So Salih left them, saying: "O my people! I did indeed convey to you [[[[[the]]]]] message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!"

054.025
YUSUFALI: "Is it that [[[[[the]]]]] Message is sent to him, of all people amongst us? Nay, he is a liar, an insolent one!"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fourth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “We don’t HAVE TO love him, he was only a man like any of us, the only difference is that he happened to bring us the Qur’an”

And Allah (SWT) tells us to love the Messenger PBUH more than anybody and anything else that He (SWT) has ever created:

[9:24] Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline; or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, Or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause - then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine now lists his fourth misconception. He thinks that people say “We don’t HAVE TO love him, he was only a man like any of us, the only difference is that he happened to bring us the Qur’an”. I have not seen anyone say that here, perhaps Jamaluddine is imagining things again. The fact is Jamaluddine, we should love him because he delivered the God’s message to us, without him being there to deliver it we would be indulging in interest eating pigs, we’d be well on our way to hell. We should, (and I do without a doubt) love him. Perhaps Jamaluddine you might want to stop imagining things and get back on the subject.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fifth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “How can he be an example for us when the Qur’an blames him for making mistakes?” and they always bring up verses:

[80:1] (The Prophet) frowned and turned away, [80:2] Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
[8:67] It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: and Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

And the answer is: The prophet PBUH is not known to have made any mistake throughout his life, because Allah (SWT) has protected Prophets PBUT from making the kind of mistakes that you and I make.
However, all Prophets PBUT made ‘errors of judgement’ (Ijtihad) (If you read the stories behind the above verses you will understand that a judgement was made), and we are very grateful to Allah (SWT) that the Prophet PBUH made these errors of judgement and that they are mentioned in the Qur’an for a purpose:
a) to show us that the Prophet PBUH did not invent the Qur’an (as some people say), because if he did, he would probably have omitted these verses
b) to show us that only Allah (SWT) alone is perfect in every sense, and therefore is alone worthy of worship. If Allah (SWT) did not mention these verses (as it could easily have been done), then the vast majority of this Ummah (Muslim nation) would have been worshipping The prophet PBUH, since he would have been quite perfect!
c) To show us that the Prophet PBUH was subjected to the strictest scrutiny by Allah (SWT), as is indicated in verse [5:67] and [69:44-47] below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wow! Jamaluddine really thinks he knows what he is talking about. He thinks ‘errors of judgements’ are not mistakes. I agree totally with your points a,b, and c, but the truth is that God didn’t just highlight a few errors of judgement to prove the points you highlighted in a, b, and c, rather he told us of the truth so we ourselves can come to the conclusions in a, b, and c.

This should be enough for Jamaluddine to realise his ‘fifth misconception’. I shall carry on because he’s imagining things again. Jamaluddine imagined whilst writing his post…

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “How can he be an example for us when the Qur’an blames him for making mistakes?” and they always bring up verses:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What does he think he is trying to do by putting ‘rejectors’ in capital letters over and over again? Jamaluddine, I think you must realise that the people reading this thread are not nursery school kids that they’re going to fall for your little invisible theatre tricks. I have not labelled you as anything, and I expect the same from you. I think you need to go back a few posts and read post # 43. Jamaluddine has used Yusuf Ali’s translation, which contains a degree of corruption found in brackets, which makes it look as though the blind man was interrupting, when in fact it says that nowhere in the Quran, with all due respect to Yusuf Ali for his efforts. By the way, the Quran does not blame Muhammad (PBUH) of making mistakes, God tells us of the mistakes he made to make it clear to us that everything he did was not right.

To be continued... in a few seconds...

monotheist
21-03-2005, 10:10 PM
(Continued from previous post...)

Muhammad (PBUH) was an excellent example for us, and he did make mistakes. This does not mean that because he made mistakes he is no longer an example for us. The truth is that we even learn from his mistakes (negative reinforcement – social learning theory), like not to disregard the disabled. I have not said anywhere that he is not an example for us. Anyway, even if he was ‘protected’ from making any mistakes, this still doesn’t justify hadith books external to the Quran. And it is not just Muhammad (PBUH) who made mistakes; there are many references to mistakes made by other prophets as well. By the way, don’t get ideas that people are going to get scared by you using Arabic words like ‘ijtihad’ to put up a language barrier – the truth is the truth, and an ‘error of judgement’ is a mistake. Using Arabic words and talking of [“stories” behind the above verses] (Which are actually stories that attempt to cover up the mentioned verses, not something behind them), is not about to change that fact. You must accept that Jamaluddine – the prophet (PBUH) did make mistakes, which are detailed in the Quran – the God does not lie. We make mistakes because of errors in judgement; we make mistakes because we fail to see the right thing to do, that is an error in judgement. On with Jamaluddine’s sixth misconception…

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sixth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS say about the Prophet PBUH: “We don’t accept anything from him other than the Qur’an”

But the Prophet PBUH made many decisions every single day of his life, and these are recorded as Hadith and Sunnah, and Allah SWT backs the Prophet’s decisions and instructs us to accept them and follow them:

[4:65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

[33:36] It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So Jamaluddine thinks that we need to know every single decision Muhammad (PBUH) made. Does it say that anywhere in the Quran? No. Nowhere. The things he did that God wants us to know about, God told us in the Quran, because is contains everything we need to pass the test. Anyway, hadith books don’t contain everything he did. Much was not recorded in the first place, much was removed in filtering, and much was fabricated. The God’s message to mankind contains everything we need.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seventh misconception:

[3:164] Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture AND Wisdom, while before that, they had been in manifest error.

Here: Allah SWT mentions TWO distinct things, since there is an AND between them. Scripture means the Qur’an, AND Wisdom means Sunnah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine yet again covers old ground thinking everyone has forgotten about it, I have already clarified Jamaluddine’s ‘Seventh misconception’ in post #73, for anyone who wants to have another look. I would copy and paste in into this post, but it will just end up looooonggger…

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Eighth misconception:

Some Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH should not be mentioned in Adhan (call to the prayer) or anywhere during one’s prayer (e.g. Tashahhud). They say that this would put the Prophet’s name at the same level as Allah’s.

Answer: In how many verses in the Qur’an does Allah SWT mention the Messenger after His name: many, many…. (see second misconception above for example)

And…

[8:1] They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(Such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: so fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This issue is out of the question in the first place. Please refer to post #93.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ninth misconception:

Hadith and Sunnah REJECTORS believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH is nobody special, just like any other prophet,

Answer: Do you know of anybody other than our Prophet PBUH that Allah SWT has ORDERED US to say prayers and blessings upon?

[33:56] Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

God does this person ever stop imagining things? No one says that he was “nobody special, just like any other prophet,”

From the way Jamaluddine has worded his imaginary statement it is clear that he is trying to make it look as though in rejecting hadith books external to the Quran, one automatically disrespects Muhammad (PBUH). The fact is that he was a prophet, and some prophets did have higher ranks than others, and nowhere in the Quran does it say that Muhammad (PBUH) has the highest rank or even the lowest rank. All we are told to do is not to make distinction among any of them because we don’t need to do that, to avoid idol worship. Our job is to focus on the message delivered by the prophets (PBUT). I have already given a full response to this in post #43, which Jamaluddine has disregarded.

With regards to 33:56 – I would again write a whole loooooooonnnngggg post for it, but to save time, I will direct brothers and sisters reading this thread to an article which can be found at http://www.free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/salatala.htm - this article shows clearly using the Quran what is going on.

33:57…

Those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.

I would like to remind all brothers and sisters that there are numerous hadiths, which are insulting to the prophet (PBUH) and God – perhaps they are the ones God is talking about, not those who reject such falsehood.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I AM SURE THAT THERE IS MORE TO BE SAID, BUT………

NEED I SAY MORE???
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If you really can find anything else then go ahead by all means, but first I will make some suggestions.

1 – Have a read of previous posts in this thread because half of *YOUR* misconceptions have already been put right. And in future don’t bother going round in circles, I’m not here run around copying and pasting earlier posts of mine.

2 – Just because you go walking about labelling people as ‘REJECTORS’ in capital letters doesn’t mean you are right – you seriously need to think logically and be prepared to accept the truth before you try to show others the right way.

3 – And most importantly, you were firstly misquoting me, then you misquoted yourself, and now you are misquoting God in what he has said in the Quran! I am patient, so if it takes you a little longer to write your posts without having to resort to misquoting and other deceptive tactics then that is fine. But to be honest I don’t think there is any point left in discussing this with you. I suggest you step down and let other decent and respectable brothers and sisters contribute to this discussion.

Now we’re back at the same position again, no verses telling us of the need to follow hadith books external to the Quran, unless the God wills otherwise. All brothers and sisters are welcome to make contributions to this discussion.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
24-03-2005, 10:42 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

to monotheist,

The posts you write are too long, which means that anybody who wants to reply to them would have to write long posts too. This is no problem, apart from the fact that we have commitments that you and your likes don't have to worry about, for example: Following the whole Qur'an by PERFOMING DAILY PRAYERS AND OTHER ACTS OF WORSHIP (Compulsory ones, and voluntary ones following the steps of our Prophet PBUH)


... I do not reject all hadith; I accept the best hadith, which is the Quran. This smashes your unfounded theory to bits. ... Anyway, even Sunni scholars reject way more than ‘one or two’ hadiths because they are obviously not true – would you class them under your category of ‘Rejectors’ as well then?

Wow! You try to confuse us (again!) by deliberately playing with words and misusing the word 'Hadith' (which, along with its derivatives, is mentioned 35 times in the Qur'an, only a few of which refer to the Qur'an itself). And then you contrdict yourself by telling us that (some of) this 'Hadith' is rejected!...

If you are not a Rejector of Hadith and Sunnah (of Prophet Muhammad PBUH), then are you telling us now that you are actually a BELIEVER??!!

Allah (SWT) says in this matter: [2:14-18]

[14] When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you we (were) only jesting."

[15] Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (to and fro).

[16] These are they who have bartered guidance for error: but their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction.

[17] Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

[18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

As for the Hadith and Sunnah of The Prophet PBUH: I personally only accept what is 'agreed upon' to be 'authentic' (especially when it comes to crucial matters of Aqeedah, Tawheed, Fiqh ...etc). The rest of Hadith ('Weak', 'Strange' ...etc) are not for me at all, they are rather used by people like yourself as 'tools of arguments'.


The reader is advised to look at who I address my posts to, and who Jamaluddine addresses his posts to

Some of my posts are addressed to you, others are addressed to my brothers and sisters to protect them from you and your likes.


On with the show…

To you it may be nothing but a 'show'. To me this is a serious and important matter.


...when in fact they never existed and were never prescribed.
What exactly do you think that we should read while perfoming Salah (Prayer)?, How many prayers would you recommend us to do per day? ...etc

Then you wrote about my quoting of verse 3:7


The following is the full translation from which he has extracted what he wanted without saying that he has only displayed a portion of it …

OK!, lets have look at the portion that I did not display:
[3:7] ...And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Monotheist, you tell us that you believe in the Qur'an, but you don't really; because Allah (SWT) mentions the word 'Prayer' (and its derivatives) 87 times in the Qur'an, in most of which He (SWT) ORDERS US to perform prayers, and yet you told us in post 93 page 10 of this forum:

…because now I abstain totally from 'ritual prayer'…

What about all the holy verses, including:

[2:43] And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

[2:110] And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: and whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees well all that ye do.

[2:238] Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

[4:103] When ye pass (congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up regular prayers: for such prayers are enjoined on Believers at stated times.



...I would request all brothers and sisters to pause for a moment and think as to whether the God would really give us a manual for life, which is not clear and only God knows what it means? What would be the point of sending it to us?...

Of corse not!, that is why He (SWT) has sent it with our Prophet PBUH, and told him to explain it to us:

[16:44] YUSUFALI: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
PICKTHAL: With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
SHAKIR: With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

Then... Here is something amazing from Monotheist! (about verse 2:173):


Here, it is clear for anybody who can read that it is Muhammad (PBUH) who is telling us what is prohibited. This is just one example from the Quran. Another smashing blow from the God.

Wrong!!: 'He' here refers to Allah (SWT) not to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. No comment!!



...nowhere in the Quran does it say “Uphold Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih…”

Neither does it say: "you can wear cotton", "you can eat rabbit meat", "you can use electricity", "you can travel by Boeing 747" ...etc

Then you said about our Prophet PBUH:


The truth is that we even learn from his mistakes (negative reinforcement – social learning theory), like not to disregard the disabled

The prophet PBUH did not disregard the blind man because he was disabled, he PBUH rather judged that the matter at hand was more of a priority: he PBUH made a judgement. Read the story!

Then, still about our Prophet (PBUH):

I have not said anywhere that he is not an example for us

And this is what you wrote back in post 43:


This is but one scenario where Muhammad (PBUH) is seen clearly not to be perfect, and that God is informing him of his mistakes. Now it could be said that if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us?


By the way, don’t get ideas that people are going to get scared by you using Arabic words like ‘ijtihad’ to put up a language barrier

I am only trying to help you see the true meaning of the words that I am using. I shall refrain from using the word 'Ijtihad' if it offends you!


So Jamaluddine thinks that we need to know every single decision Muhammad (PBUH) made... Anyway, hadith books don’t contain everything he did. Much was not recorded in the first place, much was removed in filtering, and much was fabricated.

We must learn about everything that he did and say in his life (PBUH), as well as everything that he refrained from doing or saying. Hadith books tell (in great detail) about every single minute of his life as a prophet (and important bits of before the revelation), including his moments 'in private' (related to us by himself PBUH or his wives MABPWT). As for the 'fabricated': they do exist, but only in the books and websites that you and your likes keep learning from. I have explained this above.


I will direct brothers and sisters reading this thread to an article which can be found at http://www.free-minds.org/articles/...er/salatala.htm - this article shows clearly using the Quran what is going on

Brothers and sisters reading this thread know better than to be directed to your websites in order to be injected with distorted ideas.

I will direct you Monotheist to do Wudhu and start performing prayers an obeing ALL OF THE QUR'AN!! (or is that unreasonable to ask of you?)


If you really can find anything else then go ahead by all means

I am sure that you will dispute anything that I could ever produce as evidence. Allh (SWT) describes in the Qur'an:

[6:25] Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the Signs, they will not believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee; they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."

[6:121] ...and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you; and if you obey them, you shall most surely be polytheists.

[18:56] We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest.

also: 22:3, 22:8, 22:68, 31:20, 40:4, 40:35, 40:56, 40:69, 42:35, ...etc

But Allah (SWT) tells us to keep away (clear) of these people:

[7:199] Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant.

[32:30] So turn away from them, and wait: they too are waiting.

[53:29] Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world.

[2:18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)

Monotheist,
I will make Duaa for you in my Sujud, because I still believe that you can return to the path. Otherwise you will be proving the first sentence that I ever said to you correct (see post 37 page 4).

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

Jamaluddine
25-03-2005, 09:23 AM
Assalamu alaikum

TO ALL HADITH AND SUNNAH ACCEPTORS, LOVERS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH), please read ………

I have looked at the website that Monotheist keeps recommending to us (free-minds.org), and this is what I found:

These people use long, extensive, philosophical, futile and false arguments (does this remind you of anyone?!) to tell us things like:

1) We must refrain from saying PBUH when we refer to our Prophet (PBUH), because there is now a new meaning to verse 33:56. And they use a long and winding argument to tell us that the terms 'Salloo' and 'Sallimoo' mean 'support' only (and not send your prayers, blessings, Salutations to the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam)


2) They 'slag off' all companions (MABPWT), but especially Abu Hurairah (MABPWH). His only fault is that he narrated more Hadith than anyone else.
They could not 'Slag off' the Prophet (PBUH) himself because he is mentioned by name in the Qur'an, so they hit out at the closest people to him, the very people that shielded his body with theirs in battle.

3) They say that when it comes to perfoming prayers: each person should perform it as they please, we should abolish congregational prayers (jamaah), and we certainly should abolish Jumuah prayer (The compulsory Friday prayer)

4) They say that Israa and Miraj did not happen, Al-Aqsa mosque did not exist, and Prophet Muhammad PBUH (or just 'Muhammad' as they call him) never received any instructions about prayers in Islam (See the article written by someone called Joe).

They say a lot of false and distorted things about Islam, but who's got time to list'em all??!!

May Allah (SWT) NOT make me of the 'free-minds.org'. May He (SWT) make me of the 'Guided-minds.org':

[18:17] ... he whom Allah guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray; for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

May Allah (SWT) keep me and you and all Muslim generations steadfast on his religion. May Allah keep our children from coming across Iblis and his allies.


Wassalam
Your brother

Jamaluddine

Ansari
25-03-2005, 10:34 AM
2) They 'slag off' all companions (MABPWT), but especially Abu Hurairah (MABPWH). His only fault is that he narrated more Hadith than anyone else.


By the way....the number of traditions he transmitted are not 5,374. This is only the number of channels through which they were transmitted. A recent research proves that the number of hadith he trasmitted were only 1236.

monotheist
27-03-2005, 03:10 AM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

>>>>>>>>>>
The posts you write are too long, which means that anybody who wants to reply to them would have to write long posts too. This is no problem, apart from the fact that we have commitments that you and your likes don't have to worry about, for example: Following the whole Qur'an by PERFOMING DAILY PRAYERS AND OTHER ACTS OF WORSHIP (Compulsory ones, and voluntary ones following the steps of our Prophet PBUH)
>>>>>>>>>>

If you can’t answer criticism then that’s fine Jamaluddine, and my posts being long seems like a good enough excuse for you to wriggle out. Fair enough. The God is witness over all things, and his judgement never falters.

>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:

... I do not reject all hadith; I accept the best hadith, which is the Quran. This smashes your unfounded theory to bits. ... Anyway, even Sunni scholars reject way more than ‘one or two’ hadiths because they are obviously not true – would you class them under your category of ‘Rejectors’ as well then?

Wow! You try to confuse us (again!) by deliberately playing with words and misusing the word 'Hadith' (which, along with its derivatives, is mentioned 35 times in the Qur'an, only a few of which refer to the Qur'an itself). And then you contrdict yourself by telling us that (some of) this 'Hadith' is rejected!...
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine, if you want to go down the line of using the definition of the word itself instead of the concept that has been generated using this word, then hadith means ‘narration’ – then how can someone be a ‘hadith REJECTOR’ (Can’t forget the capitals now can we…) – Again Jamaluddine, my advice is that you think about what you write in future.

>>>>>>>>>>
As for the Hadith and Sunnah of The Prophet PBUH: I personally only accept what is 'agreed upon' to be 'authentic' (especially when it comes to crucial matters of Aqeedah, Tawheed, Fiqh ...etc). The rest of Hadith ('Weak', 'Strange' ...etc) are not for me at all, they are rather used by people like yourself as 'tools of arguments'.
>>>>>>>>>>

Yet another unfounded accusation by our friend Jamaluddine… He thinks that ‘weak’ or ‘strange’ hadith are used by people like me as ‘tools of arguments’. My answer to this is that looking at these ‘weak’ and ‘strange’ etc. hadiths that exist in the so-called ‘Sahih’ hadith books should be enough to make one start thinking about the truth. Having said that, I have never said that the existence of ‘weak’ or ‘strange’ hadiths should result in rejection of the whole collections. In fact, if you read my previous posts you would find that I have said on repeated occasions that I do not approve of people who reject hadith books external to the Quran because of unbelievable hadiths, in just the same way I don’t approve of people who say that we need other things if the Quran doesn’t have things that we want it to have, things which obviously aren't supposed to be there. My request to you Jamaluddine is that you go back and read this thread from the start again, because either it appears that you haven’t bothered reading any of what I has been said on this thread or you have an extremely weak memory, or you are trying to confuse people who are just coming new to this thread and reading the last page only to find out what’s going on.

>>>>>>>>>>
Some of my posts are addressed to you, others are addressed to my brothers and sisters to protect them from you and your likes.
>>>>>>>>>>

If you are truthful, then can you make a list of posts that you addressed to me, and those you didn’t? Stop trying to confuse yourself others, it aint gonna work Jamaluddine. Answer this question truthfully Jamaluddine… have I EVER labelled anyone as anything unpleasant? Have I ever tried to make distinction between those who accept hadith books external to the Quran and those who don’t? Have I not consistently referred to those reading and contributing on this thread as “brothers and sisters in Islam”? Why then do you have this hatred against me? Saying that you are trying to protect people from (referring to me) “you and your likes” makes clear statements about your ego complex and your inability to respect peoples views.

>>>>>>>>>>
OK!, lets have look at the portion that I did not display:
[3:7] ...And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Monotheist, you tell us that you believe in the Qur'an, but you don't really; because Allah (SWT) mentions the word 'Prayer' (and its derivatives) 87 times in the Qur'an, in most of which He (SWT) ORDERS US to perform prayers, and yet you told us in post 93 page 10 of this forum:
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine, YOU ABSOLUTELY DISGUST ME. Have some shame; it is because of people like you that people all over the world think badly of Muslims, Sunni and non-Sunni. First you admit that you did not display the whole verse, then you go on to make it look as though you are correcting your mistake, and then you DELIBERATELY quote the missed bit highlighting in bold letters only what you want people to think you missed out. You did not highlight in bold the portion you edited out “And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say”, which makes a significant change to the meaning of the verse. I simply cannot believe how time after time you are using your deceptive misquoting tactic to alter my words, your own words, and even the words of the God! Even though I have exposed your deception time and time again on this thread. To clarify this for anyone who is reading this thread.

In his first post Jamaluddine quoted the following:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Allah (SWT) tells us that some of the Qur’an is clear, and some is NOT:

[3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it are verses basic or fundamental Clear (in meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not entirely clear. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is obvious to anybody that he missed out the following deliberately
(Highlighted in capitals)

3:7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except allah. AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE SAY: "WE BELIEVE IN THE BOOK; THE WHOLE OF IT IS FROM OUR LORD:" AND NONE WILL GRASP THE MESSAGE EXCEPT MEN OF UNDERSTANDING.

He missed all that out, and then in his post he justifies himself by saying:

>>>>>>>>>>
OK!, lets have look at the portion that I did not display:
[3:7] ...And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
>>>>>>>>>>

And he highlights in bold only the bit ‘"We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” – trying to make it look as though that is the only bit he missed out. I cannot believe what this character is doing!

And then he just goes on with his small talk about me believing in the Quran without giving even the slightest reference to why he misquoted the God. So, in a nutshell this is what happened – Jamaluddine Quotes a verse subjected to his editing, without giving any reason for doing so – then I expose that he has done this – in response Jamaluddine cannot think of doing anything else but quoting what he missed out, and then highlighting in bold only a small bit of what he deliberately missed out, to make it look as though that is all he missed out, and he gives no justification whatsoever for why he misquoted God this time round!

******************************************
AS A RESULT I HAVE DECIDED THAT TO STOP WASTING MY TIME IN A MUD SLINGING MATCH – AFTER HAVING GIVEN JAMALUDDINE MORE THAN ENOUGH OPPORTUINITIES TO STOP USING HIS MISQUOTING TACTICS AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME – I WILL STOP RESPONDING TO HIM – AND EVERYONE READING THIS THREAD KNOWS WITHOUT A DOUBT WHY THIS IS. THIS POST IS MY FINAL RESPONSE TO HIM. IF HE PUTS UP ANOTHER POST I WILL QUOTE FROM PREVIOUS POSTS EXACTLY HOW HE IS DECIEVING US ALL, FOR THOSE BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO ARE READING ONLY THE FINAL PAGE OF THIS THREAD. GOD IS WITNESS OVER EVERYTHING JAMALUDDINE, YOU WAIT AND I TOO AM WAITING FOR GODS JUSTICE. IF I AM WRONG THEN MAY GOD PUNISH ME, AND IF YOU ARE, THEN GOD WILL WITHOUT A DOUBT DO PERFECT JUSTICE.
******************************************

>>>>>>>>>>
Of corse not!, that is why He (SWT) has sent it with our Prophet PBUH, and told him to explain it to us:
>>>>>>>>>>

I have already explained to Jamaluddine who seems to have a memory disorder, that Muhammad (PBUH) was explaining what the Quran is, not what is in the Quran.

>>>>>>>>>>
Then… Here is something amazing from Monotheist! (about verse 2:173):

Quote:
Here, it is clear for anybody who can read that it is Muhammad (PBUH) who is telling us what is prohibited. This is just one example from the Quran. Another smashing blow from the God.

Wrong!!: 'He' here refers to Allah (SWT) not to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. No comment!!
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine – your delusions are exemplary! I never said that ‘he’ didn’t refer to the God. The fact is Jamaluddine that you haven’t realised who is actually saying this. Who? Muhammad (PBUH). Now your going to say that it is what God prohibited, not what Muhammad (PBUH) prohibited. Then I am forced to make you read the Quran Jamaluddine, here’s something amazing and unknown to you…

66:1

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

We take as prohibited what Muhammad (PBUH) prohibited because he prohibited what God prohibited. He was not allowed to prohibit anything that the God did not prohibit. The fact is Jamaluddine, that you didn’t make a comment because didn’t have a comment to make.

>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:

...nowhere in the Quran does it say “Uphold Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih…”

Neither does it say: "you can wear cotton", "you can eat rabbit meat", "you can use electricity", "you can travel by Boeing 747" ...etc
>>>>>>>>>>

Unlike you Jamaluddine, the rest of us on this site do have common sense, you probably even need someone to tell you that you shouldn’t drink poison! And please, since you think that the Quran doesn’t contain all that we need to pass the test, I’d LOVE to hear the hadith that tells us “you can travel by Boeing 747”… My advice to you again – think Jamaluddine, think!

>>>>>>>>>>
Then you said about our Prophet PBUH:
Quote:
The truth is that we even learn from his mistakes (negative reinforcement – social learning theory), like not to disregard the disabled

The prophet PBUH did not disregard the blind man because he was disabled, he PBUH rather judged that the matter at hand was more of a priority: he PBUH made a judgement. Read the story!
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine is trying to force me into disrespecting Muhammad (PBUH), but I will make clear the truth without doing so. You said that he ‘judged that the matter at hand was more of a priority’ – he did, and the fact that you keep trying to run away from is that he made the WORONG JUDGEMENT – WHICH WAS CONDEMNED BY GOD - HE MADE A M-I-S-T-A-K-E = *MISTAKE*. I don’t need to ‘read the story’ as you put it; the one God is enough for me Jamaluddine – I believe what he says.

Then you disgust us all further by repeating your deceptive quoting tactic that I exposed in post #52. From earlier on in this thread…


>>>>>>>>>>
||||“but then, only a bit later, you went even further in showing us your true feelings: "if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us?"..”||||

I will stand firm against this accusation, when looked at in the context of my post, the reader will find that I actually said this:

|||| Now it could be said that if Muhammad (PBUH) was not perfect, then how can he be an example for us? The simple answer to that is that we learn from our own mistakes, and we also learn from other’s mistakes (Social learning theory). We learn from the Quran that he is a monotheist, so we follow his example by being monotheists, and when he makes a mistake, we learn from his example, and try not to make that mistake, in this case, we are to respect those with disabilities.|||||

It will be clear to all brothers and sisters that brother Jamaluddine has quoted my words entirely out of context. When what I said is read, it is clear that I maintained wholeheartedly the fact that Muhammad (PBUH) is an example for us, but I also took into consideration the fact that in his message God highlights several mistakes that the prophet made, which I had previously highlighted an example of being 80:1-14. All I was saying in this was that Muhammad (PBUH) being an example for us doesn’t mean we copy him exactly, because then we would be making his mistakes as detailed in the Quran. I was in fact saying that he is an example for us in being a monotheist and that we can learn from his example and the narrated incident with the blind man that we should give respect to the disabled. In saying this I may sound controversial, but God is witness that my intentions are clear and I was only trying to express my view, which I think is more inline with the whole of the Quran, I.e. there is no doubt that Muhammad made mistakes because they are detailed in the Quran, and the Quran doesn’t say anywhere that he was perfect. If I am wrong in saying this then may God forgive me, and I would ask brother Jamaluddine to clarify the issue for us all, so that we may all benefit from understanding the Quran better. Please accept my humble request to you; I ask for help from you, I have never intended to go against you, the impression you may hold at the moment, but please give me a chance, I will God wiling show you otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>

Then you say the same thing again a few posts later, thinking everyone has forgotten. It is because of this despicable behaviour that I will no longer respond to you – you absolutely disgust me, and I am surprised that nobody else is picking up on your deception – perhaps they are too shocked to say anything to you.

>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:
By the way, don’t get ideas that people are going to get scared by you using Arabic words like ‘ijtihad’ to put up a language barrier

I am only trying to help you see the true meaning of the words that I am using. I shall refrain from using the word 'Ijtihad' if it offends you!
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine – you were trying to say that an error in judgement is not a mistake, and you were justifying this by calling the error in judgement Ijtihad. AN ERROR IN JUDGEMENT IS A MISTAKE. Arabic does not offend me, but I am disgusted by you quoting an Arabic word to defy logic. I repeat – an error in judgement is a mistake. Get your head round this instead of acting hard and trying to convince people of your false idea of an error in judgement not being a mistake by switching language, thinking nobody will respond.

>>>>>>>>>>
We must learn about everything that he did and say in his life (PBUH), as well as everything that he refrained from doing or saying…
>>>>>>>>>>

If you are truthful, then find me where the God says this. Happy searching…

>>>>>>>>>>
I will direct you Monotheist to do Wudhu and start performing prayers an obeing ALL OF THE QUR'AN!! (or is that unreasonable to ask of you?)
>>>>>>>>>>

Go back and read this thread Jamaluddine, “(or is that unreasonable to ask of you?)”. I reject your invitation to idol worship Jamaluddine.

>>>>>>>>>>
I am sure that you will dispute anything that I could ever produce as evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>

My conclusions on you exactly, thanks for wording it Jamaluddine.

>>>>>>>>>>
They say a lot of false and distorted things about Islam, but who's got time to list'em all??!!
>>>>>>>>>>

You Jamaluddine have just demonstrated how close-minded and fond of idolatry you are. Have some shame. I have nowhere said that I approve of what is said anywhere, only that which I have highlighted in this thread through links is what I recommended to be read.
I’d hate to say this but your close mindedness has made me realise how I have been guided into the light of God’s words. All I would say now is that you have done nothing but misquote me; yourself; and even God, constantly foaming out hatred towards people who don’t think like you. In doing that though, you have done me a favour of making me understand why people can’t see the truth. Having said that, I will still be here to speak to other brothers and sisters who wish to discuss.
You claim to have seen this free-minds.org site, if you do have even the slightest belief in God, then I suggest you read the following article, and then contemplate over your position. This is then end of my dialogue with you – and you know exactly why.

http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm

and if you still need more proof of your idol worship, the read the following…

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/language.htm

My final advice to you. Have some shame and seek the truth, if that is really what you want, instead of what you’ve been told…

2:169
And if they are told: “Follow what God has sent down,” they Say: “No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!” What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

This is then end of my dialogue with you Jamaluddine – and whether you admit it or not openly, you do know exactly why this is justified.

Peace to all sisters and brothers in Islam.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
27-03-2005, 07:11 AM
Assalamu alaikum

to monotheist,


...My answer to this is that looking at these ‘weak’ and ‘strange’ etc. hadiths that exist in the so-called ‘Sahih’ hadith books should be enough to make one start thinking about the truth...

‘weak’ and ‘strange’ hadiths DO NOT exist in ‘Sahih’ hadith books. The term 'Sahih' means 'Authentic' only!


...unbelievable hadiths...

There is no such a thing as 'unbelievable' hadiths. If they are 'authentic' then we believe them, obey them and act by them. The term 'unbelievable' suggests that any hadith that does not suit us, we reject it.


...have I EVER labelled anyone as anything unpleasant?...

You can call me 'Sunni'. It would be true and I am proud of it. I don't care if it is unpleasant to some.


...Why then do you have this hatred against me?...

I have no hatred against you personally (you must believe this!). It is just a great shame to see some of our young people deviate from the TRUE PATH that our Prophet (PBUH) and his companions (MABPWT) followed.

This TRUE PATH has stood the test of time, despite countless attempts to break it throughout history, by Jews, Christians, people of other religions, people of no religion, Atheists...etc. But none has been harder on this TRUE PATH than people who claim to be Muslims and claim to follow the Qur'an (Shiaa, ....etc, Hadith and Sunnah rejectors...etc, secularists, scientologists, governmets...etc).


Jamaluddine, YOU ABSOLUTELY DISGUST ME.

The truth always disgusts many people. Read history! :$


I simply cannot believe how time after time you are using your deceptive misquoting tactic to alter my words

I am not using any tactics. I just quote the directly relevant bits. Anyone else has a problem with this??


If you are truthful, then find me where the God says this. Happy searching…

I have been answering you this question all along (including post 107 where I quoted among other Holy verses:

59:7] What the Messenger teaches you, TAKE IT, and what he forbids you, AVOID DOING IT. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

[3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.")

but unfortunately you still cannot see it can you? That is because you are not using your senses and organs correctly:

[7:179] Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: they have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).


Jamaluddine:I will direct you Monotheist to do Wudhu and start performing prayers an obeing ALL OF THE QUR'AN!! (or is that unreasonable to ask of you?)
Monotheist: Go back and read this thread Jamaluddine, “(or is that unreasonable to ask of you?)”. I reject your invitation to idol worship Jamaluddine.

Can anyone make sense of what Monotheist is saying here??
Is he saying that 'Doing Wudhu and Performing Prayers' is idol worship??!! :confused:


My final advice to you. Have some shame and seek the truth, if that is really what you want, instead of what you’ve been told…

I have found the TRUTH!!, and IT IS what I have been told...........By ALLAH (SWT) and His Prophet (PBUH). :D

Wassalam

Jamaluddine

Aamir
27-03-2005, 10:41 PM
Assalamu alaikum

TO ALL HADITH AND SUNNAH ACCEPTORS, LOVERS OF THE PROPHET (PBUH), please read ………

I have looked at the website that Monotheist keeps recommending to us (free-minds.org), and this is what I found:

These people use long, extensive, philosophical, futile and false arguments (does this remind you of anyone?!) to tell us things like:

1) We must refrain from saying PBUH when we refer to our Prophet (PBUH), because there is now a new meaning to verse 33:56. And they use a long and winding argument to tell us that the terms 'Salloo' and 'Sallimoo' mean 'support' only (and not send your prayers, blessings, Salutations to the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam)


2) They 'slag off' all companions (MABPWT), but especially Abu Hurairah (MABPWH). His only fault is that he narrated more Hadith than anyone else.
They could not 'Slag off' the Prophet (PBUH) himself because he is mentioned by name in the Qur'an, so they hit out at the closest people to him, the very people that shielded his body with theirs in battle.

3) They say that when it comes to perfoming prayers: each person should perform it as they please, we should abolish congregational prayers (jamaah), and we certainly should abolish Jumuah prayer (The compulsory Friday prayer)

4) They say that Israa and Miraj did not happen, Al-Aqsa mosque did not exist, and Prophet Muhammad PBUH (or just 'Muhammad' as they call him) never received any instructions about prayers in Islam (See the article written by someone called Joe).

They say a lot of false and distorted things about Islam, but who's got time to list'em all??!!

May Allah (SWT) NOT make me of the 'free-minds.org'. May He (SWT) make me of the 'Guided-minds.org':

[18:17] ... he whom Allah guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray; for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

May Allah (SWT) keep me and you and all Muslim generations steadfast on his religion. May Allah keep our children from coming across Iblis and his allies.


Wassalam
Your brother

Jamaluddine


Allah Allmighty save us from such fitnah and distortion of our great religion. May the shadow of the quran and sunnah remain for those who seek the truth...

monotheist
27-03-2005, 10:56 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

Forgive me for doing this, but Jamaluddine has brought it on himself. Among the proofs of his untrustworthiness and deception, the following are a few examples, which show that he has consistently deceived us by modifying my words, his own words, and even the God’s words. All I have to say is that God will do perfect justice with everyone. All brothers and sisters reading or participating in this thread are requested to go read the following to realise what Jamaluddine is doing…

POST # 52 – JAMALUDDINE DECEIVES THE READER BY MISQUOTING ME…

and you wrote (about verse 60:4):
[Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false.]
________________________


Once again brother Jamaluddine has quoted me out of context to suit his purposes, and he has deliberately manipulated the punctuation at the end of what he has quoted, he has turned a comma into a full stop. My words were as follows:

|||| Now if we apply the same rules, if Abraham (PBUH) AND THOSE WITH HIM are an excellent example for us to follow, then why hasn’t God given us something to copy him? That is false, he was an excellent example, as was Muhammad (PBUH), and as you stated earlier, God would never tell us to do anything without given us the means to do it. This applies in this case as well. The way we follow their examples is that they were both monotheistic. They believed in the existence of the only one true God, his revelations, the angels, his books, all the beliefs they had as detailed in the Quran.||||

Please brother Jamaluddine; you mustn’t corrupt my words to suit your purposes. You thought you might get away with turning that comma into a full stop, to change the whole meaning of what I said. I believe it must be clear to all brothers and sisters who have just read this that Jamaluddine has consistently tried to frame me by quoting my words out of context and manipulating them to suit his purpose, thinking nobody would notice. But I forgive him, because I want this atmosphere of conflict to recede, so that we can engage in healthy discussion again. All I wanted to do is ask you for your help. I mean to no harm to you my friend.

FROM POST # 90 – JAMALUDDINE DECEIVES THE READER BY MISQUOTING HIMSELF…

_________________

In post 64 you did not like the fact that I said 'I do not have enough knowledge to answer everything'. Perhaps this is a major difference between you and me. I cannot disregard and ignore 1500 years worth of Companions (MABPWT), specialised Scholars ...etc and start re-inventing the wheel by re-interpreting all the verses of the Qur'an according to my own opinions! This is like trying to find your way in the dark!
_________________


****TO ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS READING THIS THREAD OR PARTICIPATING****:

Brother Jamaluddine is yet again using the technique of misquoting to prove his false point. The following is EXACTLY what is written in post #64:

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

__________________

“I am not qualified enough and do not have enough knowledge to answer some ideas that I know are

wrong.”
__________________


How can somebody ‘know’ that something is wrong without having ‘enough knowledge’ about it? Doing this may suggest that preconceived ideas, tradition and popular belief play a key role in thinking. Please don’t take offence Brother Jamaluddine, but God has given us all the power of thought, and we all have access to the Quran, hadith books, Tafsir, and anything else we might think we need, so we should all ask for God’s help and try our best to seek the truth in God’s way. It’s not a matter of memorising things and sitting at a position of authority; it’s a matter of appropriate use of the resources available to us all, whether that be in our heads or available to us in a physical form.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Brother Jamaluddine has deliberately altered his words to make it look as though I am being unreasonable. The fact that he has quoted what he wants to modify and tell us of what he said, to make it look like he actually said it, is the biggest sign for all brothers and sisters reading this thread. All I will say is that God is witness over all things, and that he will judge with perfect justice.

FROM POST # 110 – JAMALUDDINE DECEIVES THE READER BY MISQUOTING THE GOD!…

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Allah (SWT) tells us that some of the Qur’an is clear, and some is NOT:

[3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it are verses basic or fundamental Clear (in meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not entirely clear. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At this point I have to say I have lost even the least bit of faith in Jamaluddine, and he should feel extremely ashamed for the falsehood he has tried to transmit by editing the verse to his own interests. Firstly, he finds that his point is not supported by any of the translators he has consistently made reference to in this thread, so he goes out and finds one which does give him a bit of leeway. And even then he resorts to doing a crop off job of God’s words! The following is the full translation from which he has extracted what he wanted without saying that he has only displayed a portion of it …

3:7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Jamaluddine may say now that he has only given a portion of the verse that is relevant, but anybody who reads the whole verse can tell that the rest of the verse that I have highlighted in just as relevant as the rest of it. Even if we do take it that he only showed the relevant bit of it, why didn’t he put a few dots after or anything like that? Or actually tell us that this is an extract of the verse. He didn’t, and his intentions are now blatantly clear. The readers are requested to look at a few other translations. But before we do, I would request all brothers and sisters to pause for a moment and think as to whether the God would really give us a manual for life, which is not clear and only God knows what it means? What would be the point of sending it to us? The following are full (not selectively edited by Jamaluddine) translations of 3:7…

YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are [[[allegorical]]]. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is [[[allegorical]]], seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but NO ONE KNOWS ITS HIDDEN MEANINGS EXCEPT ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) [[[allegorical]]]. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is [[[allegorical]]] seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. NONE KNOWETH ITS EXPLANATION SAVE ALLAH. AND THOSE WHO ARE OF SOUND INSTRUCTION say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are [[[allegorical]]]; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is [[[allegorical]]], seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. BUT NONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH, AND THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY ROOTED IN KNOWLEDGE say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Every one of these translations says ‘allegorical’, even Shakir (whom Jamaluddine has consistently been using to put up weak arguments which I have already dealt with) translated it as allegorical. And the fact is that these allegorical verses are understood by the God and those with knowledge. So Jamaluddine has again been proven wrong by the God. I sincerely hope he repents for misquoting from the Quran, by cutting the end of the verse to prove to us all that he cannot be trusted. This is not an accusation. This is fact, because Jamaluddine has consistently proved it to us all throughout this thread, including what he has just done by doing a cropping job of the Quran. It has been made clear again to all brothers and sisters contributing or reading this thread that whatever Jamaluddine’s beliefs are, he is full to the brim of lies and deception. This shouldn’t offend anybody, because this is true and Jamaluddine has provided proofs for this throughout his posts in this thread. I sincerely hope he repents and evaluates himself.

JAMALUDDINE IS A CUNNING DECEIVING LIAR – PROOF IS IN ABUNDANCE THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD. THIS IS THE TRUTH.

And to relieve him from his delusions…

>>>>>>>>>>
‘weak’ and ‘strange’ hadiths DO NOT exist in ‘Sahih’ hadith books. The term 'Sahih' means 'Authentic' only!
>>>>>>>>>>

…and then…

>>>>>>>>>>
There is no such a thing as 'unbelievable' hadiths. If they are 'authentic' then we believe them, obey them and act by them. The term 'unbelievable' suggests that any hadith that does not suit us, we reject it.
>>>>>>>>>>

I really hate doing this, because I do not believe that the presence of unbelievable hadiths in ‘authentic’ hadith books warrants their rejection, but I will do this to get Jamaluddine out of his dreamland. I hope he wakes up.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet
advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).

* So this ‘sahih/authentic’ hadith is ‘sahih/authentic’ bukhary tells you that the prophet (PBUH) told people to drink camel urine, and Muhammad (PBUH) was so viscious that he gouged peoples eyes out, cut their hands and legs off and left them thirty in a desert – My prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not starring in a horror movie, even the worlds most sickest people wouldn’t go that far.

"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the
prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)

* So this ‘sahih/authentic’ hadith is ‘sahih/authentic’ bukhary tells you that the God needed firstly to prove his identity, and to open ‘his legs’ and that God showed Muhammad (PBUH) his thigh. Jamaluddine respect for our beloved prophet doesn’t just come from adding 4 letters every time his name is mentioned, it involves rejecting lies against him and the God, something you fail to do in saying that [‘weak’ and ‘strange’ hadiths DO NOT exist in ‘Sahih’ hadith books.] have some shame Jamaluddine, have some shame.

AND HERE ARE 2 TO ROCK THE JAMALUDDINE BOAT…

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).

"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).

* WILL YOU DECIDE THAT THESE AND NUMEROUS OTHERS LIKE THESE ARE FALSE, AND ACCEPT THE ONES I HAVE HIGHLIGHTED BEFORE THESE? THINK JAMALUDDINE, THINK!

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

I could go on for ages Jamaluddine, so wake up and realise that your ‘sahih’ books are not ‘sahih’ in the least.

>>>>>>>>>>
You can call me 'Sunni'. It would be true and I am proud of it. I don't care if it is unpleasant to some.
>>>>>>>>>>

God tells us not to divide the way of life into religions/sects (6:161 and many more) – I am nothing but a Muslim. That’s why I believe in the unity of Islam, we are one community of believers.

>>>>>>>>>>
The truth always disgusts many people.
>>>>>>>>>>

That’s why you keep resorting to your deception as part of your denial strategy. Have some shame Jamaluddine, have some shame.

>>>>>>>>>>
I am not using any tactics. I just quote the directly relevant bits. Anyone else has a problem with this??
>>>>>>>>>>

I believe I have just proved your falsehood already to all brothers and sisters reading this post.

>>>>>>>>>>
I have been answering you this question all along (including post 107 where I quoted among other Holy verses:

59:7] What the Messenger teaches you, TAKE IT, and what he forbids you, AVOID DOING IT. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

[3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.")
>>>>>>>>>>

Jamaluddine needs some kind of IQ supplement. What was the messenger giving us? THE QURAN. What was he forbidding? THAT’S WHAT GOD FORBADE BECAUSE HE WASN’T ALLOWED TO FORBID ANYTHING ELSE. And who are we following by accepting God’s message which was transmitted through Muhammad (PBUH)? THE PROPHET (PBUH) HIMSELF, not the Buddha, nor Spiderman. Wake up Jamaluddine.

>>>>>>>>>>
Can anyone make sense of what Monotheist is saying here??
Is he saying that 'Doing Wudhu and Performing Prayers' is idol worship??!!
>>>>>>>>>>

Learn to think logically, and read this thread Jamaluddine, I have answered your question yonks before this.

No more Jamaluddine, you are nothing more than a [clipped] , you are a total waste of time. By participating more in this thread and misquoting and deceiving everyone you are doing nothing but giving Sunni’s a bad name; I have respect for them because I used to be one myself. And just as a note of remembrance, I wonder if you have read 58:11. If you do believe, the you will do what God commands you to do…

58:11
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! when it is said unto you, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, Allah will give you ample, and when it is said: Rise up, then rise up. Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and Allah is Aware of what you do.

TO ALL SISTERS AND BROTHERS - No matter what the content of Jamaluddine’s posts from now on, I will not respond to anything in them, unless I am asked by other brothers and sisters to do so. I believe that the reader understands why this is. I humbly ask people brother AhsanIrfan, Brother Mossy, or anyone else to continue the discussion with me. I promise I will not be harsh on anyone, becuase I put up this thread only becuase Jamaluddine forced me to, and I believe that this is justified.

Peace to all sisters and brothers in Islam.
Monotheist.

[Edited by Mod: No name calling, please...]

monotheist
28-03-2005, 01:25 AM
:D I've just realised that I've gone up from 'Junior Member' to 'Member' :D

Is that becuase I've gone over 40 posts? Anyway, my thanks to the admin/mod people who have allowed me to participate on this thread, and to the God for creating me, can forget him now can we :lol:

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
28-03-2005, 06:19 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

to monotheist,


No more Jamaluddine, you are nothing more than a [clipped], you are a total waste of time

This is a new 'low' for you. The lowest yet. Must you get so personal and 'insulting'?.

This is nothing compared to what our Prophet (PBUH) endured at the hands of people like you.

Jamaluddine

Jamaluddine
28-03-2005, 09:16 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

Brothers and sisters can refer back to the hadiths that Monotheist has quoted: They will find that he is now doing to Hadith what he has been doing to the Holy Qur'an all along: misinterpreting it. (Read the commentary by Al-Bukhari and others on this hadith, and the whole story behind it).

This (monotheist) is the guy who asked us to stick to evidence from the Holy Qur'an in previous posts, but because he was not successful in 'selling' us his ideas using the Qur'an, he has now turned to Hadith.

DO NOT FALL IN HIS TRAP! There is nothing that these people can throw at you that has not already been dealt with in the past 1500 years!!


Monotheist,

It is obvious (from the tone of your last post) that you were not successful in dragging me to your camp (Allah knows how lucky you will be with other people). It is also obvious that you are not here to "just ask" and learn the truth.

Allah (SWT) is the Best judge!

[51:56] I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

(How much 'worshipping' are you doing?)

Jamaluddine

monotheist
28-03-2005, 06:30 PM
Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

I cannot believe what is happening here. People are deliberately trying to taint my truthfulness.

In Post 118, I said the following…

“No more Jamaluddine, you are nothing more than a [clipped] , you are a total waste of time. By participating more in this thread and misquoting and deceiving everyone you are doing nothing but giving Sunni’s a bad name; I have respect for them because I used to be one myself.”

In the bit that has been “clipped”, I said was that Jamaluddine was (using definitions of the terms only, not the words themselves),

a. Unsure of what he means (a word beginning with Con…)

b. A term, which describes the undercover portrayal of falsehood (a word beginning with Decep…)

c. Someone who does not tell the truth (a word beginning with Li…),

d. A term, which describes someone with double standards (a word beginning with Hypoc…).

Mod said…

“[Edited by Mod: No name calling, please...]”

I have most certainly not called anyone any names, I have done nothing more than give obvious conclusions to the proofs I gave in post #118 – if anyone has any doubt, I request them to read the first three sections of post #118. This was the truth, not an insult.

But then again if the reader thinks this is not justified then, I am in the wrong, but I would recommend the reader to go back a few posts and look at how people have unfoundedly insulted ME, with no proof of their accusations. If these bitter truths can be unjustly edited out of my post then I DEMAND THAT THE INSULTS GIVEN TO ME ARE “[CLIPPED]” BY MOD AS WELL, WHICH WERE FAR MORE EASILY SEEN AS VISCISOUS INSULTS RATHER THAN MY TRUE COMMENTS WHICH WERE “[CLIPPED]”, RATHER EDITTED OUT TO MAINTAIN AN ILLUSION…

***Jamaluddine in POST #50*** (formatting is my own, to highlight)

“you turned into a flaundering fish”

***Jamaluddine again in POST #50***

“You are truly full of something, you just don't know it, your head is so big that you cannot see it.”


***IN POST # 59 BROTHER AMIR KHAN HIGHLIGHTED THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WERE JUST TRYING TO ATTACK ME WITH “EVIL PRACTICES” – MANY THANKS TO BOXER FROM BOLTON.***

“I can clearly see you people are trying to attack him [[[referring to me]]]. I only posted a reply to him a few minutes ago, however felt guilty in joining in with your evil practices.”

And then he exposed the lack of people here being able to take criticism…

“You will probably remove this post because you people cannot take the pressure.”

***POST #85 – “MOD” CAN’T STAND CRITICISM SO HE MOCKS ME***

“Take some antidepressant too. U'll sleep well.”

***POST #92 – ALIBABA EXPLAINS HOW I AM NOT BEING ABLE TO DISCUSS ANYTHING BECAUSE I AM HAVING TO DEAL WITH PERSONAL ATTACKS, WHICH I THANKED HIM FOR IN POST #94***

“can ppl just keep their posts to themselves till I at least get an answer to this question!!!

maybe broda montheist is avoiding it...but it highly seems unlikely...rather most ppl are just provoking and attacking him.....”

***HERE IS SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING ABOUT WHAT JAMALUDDINE HAS DONE IN THIS THREAD JUST RECENTLY***

Immediately after my post #119, on 28/3/5 at 7:19AM (unedited as yet), he put up the following:

>>>>>>>>>>
to monotheist,

Quote:
No more Jamaluddine, you are nothing more than a [clipped], you are a total waste of time

This is a new 'low' for you. The lowest yet. Must you get so personal and 'insulting'?.

This is nothing compared to what our Prophet (PBUH) endured at the hands of people like you.
>>>>>>>>>>

First, Mod ‘clips’ my post, removing totally truthful statements with proofs given to justify them, and makes it look as though he has clipped out a swearword, so that my position is tainted, when in fact, none of what I said included even a single swearword. The God is witness over all things. Then Jamaluddine sees the opportunity and jumps on it to use this to make it look as though I have made some kind of lowly comment, and saying that I have stooped lower, when I haven’t ever called him names, in fact, I didn’t even want to separate him from myself by calling him a Sunni! In post # 116 he said:

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Quote:
...have I EVER labelled anyone as anything unpleasant?...

You can call me 'Sunni'. It would be true and I am proud of it. I don't care if it is unpleasant to some.
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

To which in post #118 I said

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>>>>>>>>>>
You can call me 'Sunni'. It would be true and I am proud of it. I don't care if it is unpleasant to some.
>>>>>>>>>>

God tells us not to divide the way of life into religions/sects (6:161 and many more) – I am nothing but a Muslim. That’s why I believe in the unity of Islam, we are one community of believers.
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Then he tries to make himself look like a hero by saying that people insulted the prophet (PBUH) and he compares me to those people, Jamaluddine just does not stop lying. In fact I did not swear at him at all in what was “clipped” out. God is witness over all matters. Not how Jamaluddine put the word ‘insulting’ in quotation marks for his game of invisible theatre, like before where he kept on putting the word rejector in his phrase ‘hadith REJECTOR’ in capitals so that people get a negative impression of me.

If from my posts people can remove words and make it look as though I was calling someone names then I DEMAND that the above and other insults towards me be removed as well. I would like to remind Jamaluddine and whoever “clipped” my post that God watches everything, and that his justice will never weaken.

I can pretty much guarantee that this scene will be used as an excuse to block me in the near future; God is witness over everything, for anybody who needs to be reminded.

Initially when I came on this thread, I thought I would enjoy learning from people, and that I would easily be swayed back to Sunnism after being shown that it is the right way, but sadly, Jamaluddine’s closed mindedness has done nothing to that extent, but has given Sunni’s a bad name for those non-Muslims who are reading this thread by consistently lying and deceiving everyone. My position has moved further towards the rejection hadith books external to the Quran partly because of Jamaluddine’s deception tactics, but I am still here to learn from you brothers and sisters, and I look forward to doing so, unless I am unjustly blocked. In the event that I am blocked all I can say is that I will be being deprived of the opportunity to learn, and I’ll pray to the God that he carries on guiding me.

As for Jamaluddine who is lapping up this opportunity to make me look false…

>>>>>>>>>>
This (monotheist) is the guy who asked us to stick to evidence from the Holy Qur'an in previous posts, but because he was not successful in 'selling' us his ideas using the Qur'an, he has now turned to Hadith.

DO NOT FALL IN HIS TRAP! There is nothing that these people can throw at you that has not already been dealt with in the past 1500 years!!”
>>>>>>>>>>

Why does he try to be the hero if he knows that he can’t do this without lying? Why is he so paranoid to think that there is some kind of trap here? Please look at the following and see for yourself how much Jamaluddine resorts to DECEPTION (THAT’S NOT A SWEARWORD IS IT?). From post #118, all is my own writing, except that between ‘>’ symbols, which is by Jamaluddine.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

>>>>>>>>>>
‘weak’ and ‘strange’ hadiths DO NOT exist in ‘Sahih’ hadith books. The term 'Sahih' means 'Authentic' only!
>>>>>>>>>>

…and then…

>>>>>>>>>>
There is no such a thing as 'unbelievable' hadiths. If they are 'authentic' then we believe them, obey them and act by them. The term 'unbelievable' suggests that any hadith that does not suit us, we reject it.
>>>>>>>>>>

I really hate doing this, because I do not believe that the presence of unbelievable hadiths in ‘authentic’ hadith books warrants their rejection, but I will do this to get Jamaluddine out of his dreamland. I hope he wakes up.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

After which I highlighted clearly some obviously false hadiths.

The only reason I highlighted the false hadiths was to show him that false hadiths do exist in the ‘sahih’ hadith books. I made it clear that I was not highlighting the false hadiths to reject the whole collection; I have myself condemned this throughout this thread. For example in post #33 at the beginning of my contribution to this thread…

>>>>>>>>>>
What I do not approve of in the least is people who pull out some unreliable hadiths and state that they are wrong, and that we should get rid of all hadith books. This is nothing more than ignorance my friends. All I am trying to do is seek the truth in justification of hadith books, using God as my judge.
>>>>>>>>>>

In conclusion I would like to tell the readers the truth that the only reason words were clipped from my post was to dumb down the effect of the proofs I provided in post #118 to show that Jamaluddine clearly uses deceptive tactics to confuse the readers. I can pretty much guarantee that I will again state the truth in my posts, and someone will “clip” bits out to make it looks as though I am calling people names, and then they will block me by saying that I have called people names on more than one instance. My approach was questioned at the start of this thread by Ahsan Irfan – he said: “Is your intention debating or learning?” and I apologised to him realising that I may have offended him by calling this a debate, and later Jamaluddine lapped that up thinking I had been put down that’s why I apologised, - NO – I apologised only to reduce friction, to avoid offending brother Ahsan Irafan – but is this thread not in the ‘Debates and In-Depth Islam’ section? People have been trying hard throughout to get me to say something that will give them an excuse to disregard my presence or block me, but as yet I have not fallen for the traps, and I have exposed them where they were being laid, like the one I just have discussed here where it is being made to look as though I called Jamaluddine names when the truth is that I never did.

I DID NOT USE ANY SWEARWORDS IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM IN WHAT WAS “CLIPPED” OUT BY MOD, NOR DID I CALL HIM NAMES, WHEN IN FACT JAMALUDDINE HAS ALREADY CALLED ME THINGS LIKE A ‘FLAUNDERING FISH’ – AND NOBODY “CLIPPED” HIS INSULTS AND OTHER PEOPLES IN SULTS TO ME, BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS, AS AMIR KHAN (WHO BELIEVES IN HADITH AND SUNNAH EXERNAL TO THE QURAN) PUT IT: “YOU PEOPLE CANNOT TAKE THE PRESSURE”.

THE GOD IS WITNESS OVER ALL THINGS - I DON’T NEED TO WORRY.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

Jamaluddine
28-03-2005, 08:14 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

to monotheist,

Please calm down, nobody is trying to deceive you, it's all an illusion that you must wake up from!


I’ll pray to the God that he carries on guiding me

I have an innocent and friendly question:

Could you please describe this prayer fully to me because I would like to learn what to say in my prayers, and whether I am saying the same thing as everybody. (Oh, and also: is it going to be Fajr, Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib or Ishaa??). I really need to know!! :cry:
Thanks in anticipation

Jamaluddine

monotheist
28-03-2005, 08:32 PM
Just an 'innocent and friendly' general statement from me - anybody can take whatever they want from it.

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People do not ask for anything even when they are in the ritual worship unjustly labelled as 'salat/namaz' They ask after it is finished, in what is called 'dua'. This can be done without ceremonially lifting the hands. And I 'pray' to God, not a cube shaped building made of stone.
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:cheesygri