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al_Zayn
22-02-2008, 09:24 PM
:salam:

I have all my life [well most of it] knew that interest that accumulates in the bank account is known as Riba hence Haram, which the Scholars [Deobandi, Salafi, subconsciously thought Barelwis believed this too] have said it to be Haram, and that dispose of this [Riba] by giving it to the needy without hoping for rewards....

Until today at 8:55pm U.K time i was watching Islam channel [to listen to some absurd fatwas as usual], to my surprise i came across one :p

A questioner asked if interest on the bank account was Haram..

the reply shocked me..

The Shaykh who replied was Ahmad Raza [Yes, a Barelwi Shaykh], he said:

[Paraphrasing]

"The interest from the bank account is Mubah [Permissible] and not haram, and this interest is not regarded as the Shariah 'Ribaa' - Interest, because it was Imam Abu Hanifa's opinion that any dealing done with a non Muslim in a non Muslim country one can take any amount they give you as courtesy, and it is known that bank accounts take your money and invest it i.e. dealing, and hence give you profit from what they earnt as a gesture for you do dealing with them i.e. Using their accounts and putting money in their, This is also proven in Hidayah and is Imam Abu Hanifa's main Fatwa....however if anyone has any doubts in their hearts they should give it away to the poor and needy"

I dont know if it is me, but isn't interest in Banks known as Riba - interest and thus Haram? i have checked Deobandi and Salafi fatwas online and they say it is not permissible [Haram] and advise to get rid of it...

anyway a few Questions:

shouldn't the Barelwis have the same fatwa as Deobondis on this since we both follow Imam Abu Hanifa in Fiqh?

Is this opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa's?

Is it found in Hidayah?

:jazak:
:ws:

mujahid7ia
22-02-2008, 09:56 PM
I have also heard something like this... in colonial India the ulama debated whether they were living in dar al-harb or dar al-salam/islam, and that this would affect the ruling on riba. Does anyone have any details?

al_Zayn
22-02-2008, 10:06 PM
I have also heard something like this... in colonial India the ulama debated whether they were living in dar al-harb or dar al-salam/islam, and that this would affect the ruling on riba. Does anyone have any details?

:salam: thats understandable, but UK is not Dar al Harb, So why have our Barelwi Ikhwan taken another route on this Big issue Maslah that shouldn't be taken lightly...?? especially when there is Qati' Daleel in the Quran that Allah [Azza Wa Jal] forbidding it..

:jazak:
:ws:

mujahid7ia
22-02-2008, 10:10 PM
I agree with you; I also want to hear the logic and evidence behind this strange position.

Owen
22-02-2008, 10:12 PM
This sounds like Judaism's views on riba. Except the above only answers in the view of the depositor, and not as a lender.

I think we all know the history of Jews lending to non-Jews since it's not permissible to charge any interest whatsoever to a fellow Jew. The Christians especially were using this reason to persecute them as it goes against the Old Testament or basic religious traditions. But the persecution was also because Jewish lenders would charge too high of an interest.

In Islam, I don't know whether the reply from the Shaykh is correct or otherwise, but it does need ALOT more clarification - much more than a simple Q&A.

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 11:08 AM
This sounds like Judaism's views on riba. Except the above only answers in the view of the depositor, and not as a lender.

I think we all know the history of Jews lending to non-Jews since it's not permissible to charge any interest whatsoever to a fellow Jew. The Christians especially were using this reason to persecute them as it goes against the Old Testament or basic religious traditions. But the persecution was also because Jewish lenders would charge too high of an interest.

In Islam, I don't know whether the reply from the Shaykh is correct or otherwise, but it does need ALOT more clarification - much more than a simple Q&A.

:salam:

the Shaykh made himself loud and clear when i was hearing him yesterday, he said it was Mubah to take interest from bank which incurs into your account due to the person putting money in there...he calls it dealing with non Muslims....

Any Brothers in this forum can clarify this position?..i would like to know what the fellow barelwi brothers in this forum think.

:ws:

Shaykh
23-02-2008, 11:34 AM
I would just like to quote an incident some time back. A man approached Mufti Zar Wali Khan in a Majlis after Friday Prayers and asked "If there is any significance of Azaan given by Barelwis." - the poor guy wanted to know if he could perform salah in accordance with azaan from a barelwi mosque.

Mufti Zar Wali Khan snapped at the poor guy badly and said that "If a cock gives an azaan every 10 minutes, will you offer prayers just because you are hearing the azaan."

Relevance: Not everything spoken by everyone contains authenticity and particularly with some people (i dont mean to name them)

loveProphet
23-02-2008, 11:49 AM
:ws:

If you see the Reliance of the Traveller, Sheikh Nuh refutes the Deobandis who issued a similar fatwa to the first post in the 1990's(i assume) in the Dar ul Uloom.

loveProphet
23-02-2008, 11:59 AM
Btw, that fatwa that was mentioned on Islam channel is just absurd.
The Sheikh is an Azhari Sheikh though.

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 11:59 AM
:ws:

If you see the Reliance of the Traveller, Sheikh Nuh refutes the Deobandis who issued a similar fatwa to the first post in the 1990's(i assume) in the Dar ul Uloom.

:salam:

forgive my ignorance Br, your saying the deobandis were the first to issue such fatwa - like the similar one which i posted by a Barelwi Scholar? thats news to me!

can you get more info on this possible or try and post Shaykh Nuh's refutation? it would be great to see.

:ws:

loveProphet
23-02-2008, 12:07 PM
:salam:

forgive my ignorance Br, your saying the deobandis were the first to issue such fatwa - like the similar one which i posted by a Barelwi Scholar? thats news to me!

can you get more info on this possible or try and post Shaykh Nuh's refutation? it would be great to see.

:ws:
:ws:

These fatwas have a "history" with the Azhar university in the last century and this century.
Sheikh Nuh mentions a fatwa issued by the Mufti of Dar al-Ulum and his assistant in Deoband, India which says that dealing with interest is permissible between Muslims and non-Muslims in dar al-harb.... it is permissible for a Muslim to both take interest and give it and claims that India is dar al-harb... permits Muslims putting money in non-Muslim banks and take interest and to loan money to the state for interest.
However Sheikh Nuh goes on to refute it in several pages in the book. An important issue being that there is no dar al-harb today.

Shaykh
23-02-2008, 12:17 PM
The Following Might Help


Al-Azhar Fatwa Declaring Interest Permissible

by Mufti Taqi Usmani
Posted: 25 Ramadan 1423, 30 November 2002

Question: There are media reports of a new Al Azhar declaration on Interest. This poses a serious dilemma for us in the West and your guidance is needed as to how we should deal with it. [Abdul Hai Patel]

Answer: I have not yet seen the text of so-called Fatwa issued by Majma-ul-Bahoos of Al-Azhar of Egypt. What I have seen is the press reports that have appeared in different newspapers and magazines which have reported that Majma-ul-Bahoos has allowed fixed interest by a resolution adopted by it with a majority of 20 to 1. The following points may be kept in view about this resolution:

1. Majma-ul-Bahoos, at present, does not comprise of very competent scholars of Shariah. There was a time when this institution was regarded as the most prestigious research institute with regard to Shariah and great scholars from all over the world used to attend its meetings. At that point of time this very institute had issued a detailed resolution about the prohibition of bank interest which was adopted unanimously by the personalities not less than Sheikh Abu Zahra, Hassanain Makhloof, Mustafa Zarqa etc. At present no one of that caliber is available in this institution.

2. It is well known that Sheikh Tantavi had issued his opinion about the permissibility of bank interest as a Mufti of Egypt after which he was elevated by the government to the post of Sheikh of Al-Azhar. His views were forcefully rejected and refuted by the Shariah scholars throughout the world and he was condemned by them for the Fatwa issued by him in this regard. It seems that the same Sheikh Tantavi has somehow managed to get this resolution issued by the Majma-ul-Bahoos which has at present has no outstanding scholars in it.

3. The importance in Shariah is always of the evidence produced from the Qur'an and Sunnah and not from the individual opinion expressed by some scholars. Since all the noteworthy Shariah Scholars have declared the bank interest as Riba and prohibited by Qur'an. This scanty opinions expressed by some unknown persons cannot contradict the position taken by the Ummah throughout the centuries.

Extracted 12/09/02 from Albalagh

E-mail your comments to amirali@ilaam.net

http://www.ilaam.net/Questions/InterestFatwa.html

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 12:24 PM
:ws:

These fatwas have a "history" with the Azhar university in the last century and this century.
Sheikh Nuh mentions a fatwa issued by the Mufti of Dar al-Ulum and his assistant in Deoband, India which says that dealing with interest is permissible between Muslims and non-Muslims in dar al-harb.... it is permissible for a Muslim to both take interest and give it and claims that India is dar al-harb... permits Muslims putting money in non-Muslim banks and take interest and to loan money to the state for interest.
However Sheikh Nuh goes on to refute it in several pages in the book. An important issue being that there is no dar al-harb today.

:ws: thats interesting....

i definitely agree on that there is no Dar ul Harb today, thats what giving me a headache..because the fatwa of the Barelwi Shaykh yesterday didn't mention that UK was Dar ul Harb..which atleast the Dobandi Ulama back then at least mentioned which was the criteria..

:ws:

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 12:25 PM
The Following Might Help



http://www.ilaam.net/Questions/InterestFatwa.html

:jazak:

i read this quite a while back, it upsets me that 1000 years old Muslim Academy falls into the hands of Jahil Murakkabs.

loveProphet
23-02-2008, 12:26 PM
:ws: thats interesting....

i definitely agree on that there is no Dar ul Harb today, thats what giving me a headache..because the fatwa of the Barelwi Shaykh yesterday didn't mention that UK was Dar ul Harb..which atleast the Dobandi Ulama back then at least mentioned which was the criteria..

:ws:
:ws:

If India is dar al-Harb as that Deobandi Mufti thought so, then the UK is too.
But nevertheless dar al-harb don't exist these days the last time i checked. Perhaps a knowledgable brother can inform me otherwise.
That Sheikh you mentioned, i know from his answer before that he mentioned that condition is for dar al-harb if i remember correctly and he doesn't allow it in Muslim lands.

Shaykh
23-02-2008, 12:36 PM
:jazak:

i read this quite a while back, it upsets me that 1000 years old Muslim Academy falls into the hands of Jahil Murakkabs.

Islam is Universal and trascends all times, boundaries and institutions... just like individuals every institution has its scholarly life and then it loses its significance... but important is the fact that the knowledge of islam is preserved and passed on without any alterations...this is the true essence and a proof of its validity...dont worry about Al Azhar...

Guardian Angel
23-02-2008, 12:40 PM
Is Al-Azhar a Barelwi institute?

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 12:44 PM
:ws:

If India is dar al-Harb as that Deobandi Mufti thought so, then the UK is too.
But nevertheless dar al-harb don't exist these days the last time i checked. Perhaps a knowledgable brother can inform me otherwise.
That Sheikh you mentioned, i know from his answer before that he mentioned that condition is for dar al-harb if i remember correctly and he doesn't allow it in Muslim lands.

:salam: i don't care if the deobandis were wrong in this matter, but they at least mentioned a condition which they thought was fulfilled but in reality wasn't...
But the Shaykh yesterday didn't mention Dar al Harb which makes the matter more trivial dont you think?

suppose he did mention uk being dar al harb, i just need to know is his fatwa for the UK is true and endorsed by all if not Majority of the Ulamas?

Whats you take on this akhi?

:ws:

Ali al-Hanafi
23-02-2008, 01:46 PM
:salam:

loveProphet, could you provide the reference for the Deobandi answer in the Reliance please.

abuhajira
23-02-2008, 04:29 PM
:salam:

The discussion is in w.43 of the Reliance of the Traveller.. I wasnt aware of this fatwa of DU Deoband. I wish to to see this fatwa.. so if some one can scan it in it original URDU form.. it would be great.

I will try to look at the Fatawa DU-deoband to see if there is anything about it there..

:ws:

whodat
23-02-2008, 04:38 PM
I believe the opinion regarding interest and dar al harb comes from Ibn Abideen. Since he is a major reference point for hanafis some have followed him. Perhaps br.abuhajira can further comment on Ibn Abideen's opinion and how the major ulema have rejected his opinion. Jazak"Allah khair.

abuhajira
23-02-2008, 05:10 PM
:salam:

yes I am not that worried about the paying of interest in darul harb (because atleast there is a an opinion to base that on from Imam Sahib and Imam Muhammed r.am, rather more about the basis of DU fatwa establishing india as darul harn AND making qiyas on paying of interest to non muslim..



:ws:

Ansari
23-02-2008, 05:31 PM
it is permissible for a Muslim to both take interest and give it and claims that India is dar al-harb...

Are u sure it was written that taking and giving interest was allowed? Or was only giving OR taking interest mentioned?

Ansari
23-02-2008, 05:40 PM
See also: http://www.albalagh.net/qa/riba.shtml

Riba in Dar-ul-Harb

By Mufti Taqi Usmani


Q 1.) Is it permissible to obtain an interest based loan for a home in America on the basis that America is Dar-ul-Harb? I understand that a Mufti from Deoband gave a fatwa saying it is permissible for Muslims in India to give and receive loans on interest since India is Dar-ul-Harb. If it is permissible, on what basis and are there any restrictions? This is a very big issue in the US since Muslims cannot purchase homes on interest, there are no interest free banks and rentals for flats are the same as paying mortgages. [Junaid Noormohamed. Chicago, IL, USA]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A 1.) Although some past jurists were of the vew that riba transactions with non-Muslims in Dar-ul-Harb are not impermissible yet this minority view did never find favour with the bulk of the Muslim jurists throughout the world. Their main argument is that the prohibitions imposed by the Holy Quran are of universal nature and do not differ from country to country. For example, drinking or selling wine to non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country is as prohibited as it is in a Muslim country. Likewise adultery and prostitution in a non-Muslim country is as impermissible as in a Muslim country. The case of riba is not different on this score. Its prohibition stands operative throughout the world, therefore, it is not allowed for a Muslim to transact on the basis of riba even when he is in a non-Muslim country which is termed as Dar-ul-Harb. Therefore, it is not permissible for Muslims living in the Western countries to enter into a loan transaction based on interest even for the purpose of acquiring a home. That is why Muslims in these countries are trying to establish their own institutions for house financing. A number of such institutions have been established in North America and U.K.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q 2.) Please clarify for me the exact Hanafi position on the taking of interest from the kuffar in dar-ul-harb. Is it permissible to take advantage of the interest offered freely by these people or not?
What do the ulema say about the passages in Fathul Qadeer and Shami which appear to state that the Hanafi position (at least that of tarfain) is that it is permissible to take advantage of this when the benefit is for the Muslim? If it is not permissible then please explain these texts and the hadith "la riba bain al harbi wal Muslim" on which they are based.

If someone takes interest from the kuffar on this ruling is he committing haram or makrooh act?

If it is permissible then can this money be used to fund the activities of Muslims in these countries for the sake of deen such as setting up Muslim schools etc.

I do not require a fatwa but merely the opinion of the ulema such as Mufti Taqi Sahib, as I realize that sometimes their opinions may be different from the legal fatwa which is required for the people. [Molvi Nazim Ali]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A 2.) Transaction of interest with the non-Muslims in Darul Harb was allowed by Imam Abu Hanifa subject to certain conditions but the majority of the Fuqaha including the Hanafi jurists have not accepted it and the Fatwa has always been given on its impermissibility. You can find full discussion on this subject in the detailed treatise written by Maulana Zafar Ahmad Usmani under the title "Kashf-al-Dujah" which is published in 3rd volume of Imdad-ul-Fatawa which you may please consult for the details.

However, even following the majority view of the impermissibility of Riba in Darul Harb the interest received from Darul Harb can be used for charitable purposes like helping the needy persons who are entitled to receive Zakat but in no way the amount of interest can be used for one's own benefit.

Also, if i am not mistaken, i think it was Mawlana Shabir Ahmed Usmani or Mawlana Hussain Ahmad madani who allowed it too. But i need to check that again first.

abuhajira
23-02-2008, 05:59 PM
:salam:

Jazak Allah for that sidi Ansari,

According to Fatawa Darul Uloom Deoband (Q#742) the fatwa of Jamhur Hanafiyyah is on Imam Abu Yusuf's Qawl of hurmat. So as I said.. we need to see this particular fatwa in its original scan to deduce what conditions and what criteria they used to give the fatwa contrary to the Jamhur..

:ws:

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 06:52 PM
:salam:

:jazak: Br Ansari for that piece.

Br AbuHajira is the fatwa on Imam Abu Yusuf's opinion? then why has this Barelwi Shaykh moved away from the Majority opinion?

:ws:

abuhajira
23-02-2008, 07:08 PM
:salam:

I cannot comment about the Barelvi Alim.. but The view of the DU Deoband old fatwa will revolve around which Muftiyan saw India as Darul Harb. Maulana Ehzaz tells me that Mufti Kifayatullah considered india as Darul Harb.. So my next stop will be to check about that inshAllah..

Yes, the fatwa is on Imam Abu Yusuf r.a, but it could be that the muftiyaan saw some particular benefit in opting the non jamhur opinion at that time..

:ws:

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 07:22 PM
:salam:

I cannot comment about the Barelvi Alim.. but The view of the DU Deoband old fatwa will revolve around which Muftiyan saw India as Darul Harb. Maulana Ehzaz tells me that Mufti Kifayatullah considered india as Darul Harb.. So my next stop will be to check about that inshAllah..

Yes, the fatwa is on Imam Abu Yusuf r.a, but it could be that the muftiyaan saw some particular benefit in opting the non jamhur opinion at that time..

:ws:

:salam: The old fatwa which based India as Dar al Harb was according to some Ulama of India in which they thought the conditions of Dar ul Harb were met??

Anyway:

These are the conditions for Dar ul Harb:

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=8d6e2e49dfef838e51a8e1de2b2084f7

and this was the fatwa regarding interest in Dar ul Harb:

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=32dbdaa8a2775d48e22081a6efef4e42

The Barelwi Alim did not even specify that it was Dar ul Harb which is kind of getting confusing for me...i think he put that fatwa out to against the Deobandi opinion...dont you think so? :confused:

:jazak:
:ws:

ammardiwan
23-02-2008, 09:00 PM
:salam:

I cannot comment about the Barelvi Alim.. but The view of the DU Deoband old fatwa will revolve around which Muftiyan saw India as Darul Harb. Maulana Ehzaz tells me that Mufti Kifayatullah considered india as Darul Harb.. So my next stop will be to check about that inshAllah..

Yes, the fatwa is on Imam Abu Yusuf r.a, but it could be that the muftiyaan saw some particular benefit in opting the non jamhur opinion at that time..

:ws:

Brother:

IMHO, there is no way you can consider the US, UK, India, etc... dar-ul-harb. If one does so, then they are finding excuses to engage in riba

Of course, I'm no scholar, so the ulema would know best

abuhajira
23-02-2008, 09:05 PM
Brother:

IMHO, there is no way you can consider the US, UK, India, etc... dar-ul-harb. If one does so, then they are finding excuses to engage in riba

Of course, I'm no scholar, so the ulema would know best

:salam: sidi..

arent the above two statements contraditory.. If Ulama know best and the Mufti considered india to be dar ul harb then he was an Alim who knew best.. again there is no point discussing his fatwa without even having seen it..

:ws:

ammardiwan
23-02-2008, 09:12 PM
:salam: sidi..

arent the above two statements contraditory.. If Ulama know best and the Mufti considered india to be dar ul harb then he was an Alim who knew best.. again there is no point discussing his fatwa without even having seen it..

:ws:

:salam:

But we have to remember that the majority of scholars disagree with that opinion (As Mufti Taqi made clear)

:ws:

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 09:15 PM
:salam:

But we have to remember that the majority of scholars disagree with that opinion (As Mufti Taqi made clear)

:ws:

:salam: Br Ammardiwan, you say those who endorsed such a fatwa wanted to engage in riba?....your trying to say Imam e Ahlus Sunnah Abu Hanifa wanted to engage in Riba? Na'udhu billahi Min Dhaalik

anyway its useless as Br Abu Hajira said, until the fatwa has been seen, then one cannot comment.

:ws:

ammardiwan
23-02-2008, 09:22 PM
:salam: Br Ammardiwan, you say those who endorsed such a fatwa wanted to engage in riba?....your trying to say Imam e Ahlus Sunnah Abu Hanifa wanted to engage in Riba? Na'udhu billahi Min Dhaalik

anyway its useless as Br Abu Hajira said, until the fatwa has been seen, then one cannot comment.

:ws:

No, I said people who want to deem the US and UK as dar-ul-harb are doing so to make riba lawful

al_Zayn
23-02-2008, 09:38 PM
No, I said people who want to deem the US and UK as dar-ul-harb are doing so to make riba lawful

:salam:

Thanks for clarifying. yes i do agree, especially that absurd fatwa from the Shaykh on Islam channel..what is he playing at trying to misguide the mass.

:ws: