A few clarifications about jihad and me

[GenN]

Assalm alykum,

Some people seem to get the idea that anyone whe talks about jihad is a wahabi or agrees with terrorsits planting bombs in the west and flying planes into buildings, and so becaseu of some of the absurd accusations thrown at me and people just not understanding what i am trying to say about jihad i am giving these few short clarifications:

1. Jihad an nafs is the greatest jihad, becasue without it there is no sincerity and pride develops and what is the point of the battlefield jihad then?

2. i do NOT call for jihad in the western world which is by and large made up of civilains and therefore i do NOT agree with attacks like 911.

3.When i am talking about PROMOTING jihad, i am NOT talking about making hate filled remarks like al muhajiroun do, which earn the anoyance of the kuffar general public, instead of attracting them towards Islam.

4. promoting Jihad means talking about the struggles of the mujahedeen in the lands of jihad and supporting them by word of mouth and finanncilaly and talking about the muslims that are being bombarded and killed and raped and massacred by the kuffar goverments like America and britain in lands like afghanistan, iraq, chechnya and pasletine and supporting the mujhideen there verbally and financially, mujahideen who are defending the blood and the honour of the muslims there with what little weapons they have, knowing fully well that the real weapon is patience and steadfastness and tawakul in Allah.

5. YES in some of these lands SOME of the mujahedeen/mujahedeen groups have gone beyond the limits of Sharia and carried out actions of which are NOT in conformity with sharia and so they need to be warned about these actions. However by and Large a lot of the mujahdeen are in complete confomrance with the sharia in the lands of jihad and sometimes they may carry out some actions on which there is legitimate differnce of opinion, but you cannot criticise them for actions there is differnce of opionon on.

6. Yes i belive Jihad is fad ayn today on every capable muslim in the world, and i yet have to see any real evidcene against this, because all the evidecnce from the 4 madhabs points to it being fard ayn. if you can provide me with some evidecn to prove it is not fard ayn then may Allah reward you.

7. I do not for a second belive raising our "voices" or "rallying" here in the west will have any effect in changing the course of western goverment, as western goverments are only bothered about their own benefits. yes these "voices" may change the public opion of the genral masses, but that is to do with dawah here in the west NOT political change to help our poor brothers and sisters in the oppressed lands. If you honestly belive that your voices will have any change or effect in the goverment then i'm sorry you don't have a clue. The Iraq rallies should be ample proof for this, how much of the world rallied for iraq to NOT be attacked, did america and britain pay heed!!!! how much louder is your voice gonna get? A muslim does not fall into the same trap twice.

8. Yes there is a differnce of opion on sucide bombing although i am of the opion it is NOT permissbale, but becaseu of the differnce of oion i don't go around criticng the brothers and sisters that carry it out.

9. NO inniocent civilians and old men, women and children canNOT be trageted in jihad, however if they are DIECTLY participating agisnt the muslims in some way or another like spying then sharia says YES they can be killed. Living and working in the west so that yur paying taxes does NOT constitute DIRECT helping, as it is indirect, so these people living and working in the west caNOT be targeted.

10. If a mujahid sincerly targets enemy forces and inncoent women, children and old men (muslim or non muslim) get killed as collateral damage then that is permissable from sharia, and of course one is saddened by this but Allah knows best what is good for us, so if sharia permits it then no one has the right to say it is wrong.

11. what really angers me about some of the "sunni" scholars in the west is that they do NOT openly PROMOTE (not give fiqh of jihad, or talk about some bios of mujhaids in the past, but PROMTOE todays jihads) the jihad and support the real mujahdhedeen (not the terrorsits, or the wahabies), instead such a picture has now been implanted in the minds of the muslims especially in the west (and the western media is partly to balme, and partly to blame are the muslims scholars who do not speak openly promoting the true jihads and mujhideen in lands like afghan and palestine, checnya and kashmir) that all "jihadis" are terrorsist wahabies. that is so far from the truth. Most of the mujahdeen in afghan and kashmir are hanafis, much of the jihad in checnya was and probably still is being fought by sufi of one of the 4 madhabs and same with palestine and iraq. Instead of promoting these jihads the issue that is promtoed by these wetern scholasr is making sure we look good in the eyes of the kuffar goverments so that we can continue to enjoy a happy life here in the west whilst our brothers and sisters in the lands of jihad continue to suffer. The real issue promoted should be Jihad for the defence of the muslim blood and honour in the lands of Jihad, NOT how to make your life more cushy in the west and that it doesnt matter what these western govermnets (which some muslims actaully like to say that they are a part of!!!) do to our mujahedeen, we will just label them terrorists like the media!!!!

13. The excuse that we are too weak military wise to fight and so we should not fight in the lands of jihad but look for other ways (what other i just don't know other than raising your "voice" to the western govermants, as if they are really going to listen) is nothing more than an excuse as in the whole history of Islam the real weapon has always been tawakul, and many mnay times muslims have always been weaker than the enemy but have been victorious due to their taqwa.

Now if you have a problem with this (i suppose ther are a couple of points (within the above points) one may understandabley, slightley differ on) then all i can say is May Allah guide you.


May Allah guide us all and have mercy on us.

And Allah knows best

was slaam.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

jazak Allah for clarifying your views. it certainly helps in this discussion. i will comment on certain points you made:

<<4. promoting Jihad means talking about the struggles of the mujahedeen in the lands of jihad and supporting them by word of mouth and finanncilaly and talking about the muslims that are being bombarded and killed and raped and massacred by the kuffar goverments like America and britain in lands like afghanistan, iraq, chechnya and pasletine and supporting the mujhideen there verbally and financially, mujahideen who are defending the blood and the honour of the muslims there with what little weapons they have, knowing fully well that the real weapon is patience and steadfastness and tawakul in Allah.>>

there are plenty of opportunities for you to discover this. there are plenty of books out there which you yourself have recommended. the muslims know about this - there is NO benefit in re-iterating this unless there is a real purpose to it. in addition, the muslim scholars of the west have a significant role in dawa. it is very difficult for them to constantly talk about fighting the uk abroad, it is clear what happens to them. instead, you and i know the reality of whats going on - if you want to find out more, go and discuss with the scholars privately - this is out of wisdom not fear. i can tell you now, all of them will speak to you about it. they WILL NOT however release CDs and tapes on these things because they realise this is not the way to go about it here in the west.

<<11. what really angers me about some of the "sunni" scholars in the west is that they do NOT openly PROMOTE (not give fiqh of jihad, or talk about some bios of mujhaids in the past, but PROMTOE todays jihads)>>

please give examples, because i can't think of any at the moment that fit your 'angry' accusation.

<<the jihad and support the real mujahdhedeen (not the terrorsits, or the wahabies),>>

again, no sunni scholar has denied defensive jihad. also, it is very difficult to distiniguish between the wahhabiyya and sunni's in these situations.

<<instead such a picture has now been implanted in the minds of the muslims especially in the west (and the western media is partly to balme, and partly to blame are the muslims scholars who do not speak openly promoting the true jihads and mujhideen in lands like afghan and palestine, checnya and kashmir) that all "jihadis" are terrorsist wahabies.>>

the salafiyya have had major influence in the modern jihad struggles. you are naive if you think otherwise. ask Shaykh Abu Ja'far.

<<that is so far from the truth. Most of the mujahdeen in afghan and kashmir are hanafis, much of the jihad in checnya was and probably still is being fought by sufi of one of the 4 madhabs>>

agreed - first 2. Chechnya i don't completely agree. Even if some are 'sufi', taking a cinema hall of hostages is not exactly 'islamic' is it?

<<and same with palestine and iraq.>>

i don't think so - maybe some, but you better check your facts first. there are salafi elements in palestine (i know this first-hand from brothers who have travelled to Sham) and definitely in Iraq in huge numbers.


<<Instead of promoting these jihads the issue that is promtoed by these wetern scholasr is making sure we look good in the eyes of the kuffar goverments so that we can continue to enjoy a happy life here in the west whilst our brothers and sisters in the lands of jihad continue to suffer.>>

harsh accusation which i will ignore until you prove it.

<<The real issue promoted should be Jihad for the defence of the muslim blood and honour in the lands of Jihad, NOT how to make your life more cushy in the west>>

i don't know who you are talking about brother, but you sound an awful lot like you did in the first thread.

<<13. The excuse that we are too weak military wise to fight and so we should not fight in the lands of jihad>>

who says we should not fight?

salams

[Strive4Allah]

GOOD. I have same problems on other forums.

[Mustafa]

Bismillah-hir-Rahman-hir-Rahim

As-salaam alaikum

It's not what you're saying, bro Genn, it's the way you are saying it. If you want people to listen to you try using a bit more adab. People react to you because of you rub them the wrong way, not because you're talking about jihad, which is what you seem to imply. And that brings me to my next point...you're constantly jumping to a conclusion and then assuming that that conclusion is the RIGHT one without considering any others.

Point number 11 is a good example of this. You have no clue as to why sunni ulema are doing what they're doing, and yet you've come to a conclusion which you've assumed is fact without looking at any other options.

Yes, taqwa is the key to victory, but bad adab, criticising the ulema and holding bad opinions of others are all facets of poor taqwa and hence before you start pointing fingers you should - as should myself and everyone else reading this - look at your own self first.

I don't know about other sunni scholars, but I do know that Shaykh Nuh has spoken on jihad - specifically on what sunni scholars today are doing, on who is doing jihad right now, and what is wrong with current jihad movements. Ironically, it was in response to the question "Why aren't traditional sunni scholars doing jihad? Why is it only salafis?" to which, after giving his explanation, the Shaykh says: "Get your facts right!" The session is part of the 'Taliban' files up in the members section of suhba.org.

And Allah knows best.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Strive4Allah]

[/QUOTE}

Yes, taqwa is the key to victory, but bad adab, criticising the ulema and holding bad opinions of others are all facets of poor taqwa and hence before you start pointing fingers you should - as should myself and everyone else reading this - look at your own self first.

[/QUOTE]

I dont think its a matter of pointing fingers at anyone.
We know where we stand but ofcourse we have to look at whos giving the fatwa would we go to anyold mufti asking for fatwa?
Like mufti PF (POCKET FATWA)

[dhakiyya]

Assalm alykum,
7. I do not for a second belive raising our "voices" or "rallying" here in the west will have any effect in changing the course of western goverment, as western goverments are only bothered about their own benefits. yes these "voices" may change the public opion of the genral masses, but that is to do with dawah here in the west NOT political change to help our poor brothers and sisters in the oppressed lands. If you honestly belive that your voices will have any change or effect in the goverment then i'm sorry you don't have a clue. The Iraq rallies should be ample proof for this, how much of the world rallied for iraq to NOT be attacked, did america and britain pay heed!!!! how much louder is your voice gonna get? A muslim does not fall into the same trap twice.


I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, but I want to take issue with this point, because those people who say "we protested about Iraq but it had no effect" are the ones that have fallen into the trap. Very little change was ever made by a single protest (no matter how big) but by an ongoing movement of protest, which includes partaking in the standard democratic system (voting, writing to your MPs) protesting - that means going to all the protests you can, not just the big ones and not just when the sun is shining - other forms of direct action (legal is better, but sometimes illegal (by the law of the land, not illegal by Islamic law!) direct action is the only viable option) - fighting with the pen, i.e. writing to newspapers, attempting to get articles published, documentaries or footage of opression etc on TV, that kind of thing - going out into the street and doing stuff like leafletting - consumer boycotts, writing to the companies to say why you don't buy their stuff, writing to supermarkets saying you'll stop shopping there if they continue to sell Israeli goods --------- all this action, especially as the movement grows and more people start to do little things like not shopping in M&S.... the harder it is for governments to ignore the issue, and things *DO* get changed. It was this that ended apartheid in South Africa, and since I've been actively involved in campaigning for Palestine, I've seen a big shift in public opinion.

In addition, if you think that the 2 million people protesting about Iraq has had no effect at all, consider many of the issues surrounding the war - would so many people, including newspapers and TV journalists, have spoken against it so easily if no-one had protested? Would the Hutton enquiry have even happened at all? Would Tony Blair have taken such a hammering in the last election? Would Bush and Blair have simply gone on to invade other countries? Cause I can assure you that Iraq is not the only country on their agenda, and had they not faced so much difficulty with public opinion following the invasion of Iraq, they could easily have invaded someone else by now. In addition, many people came to understand what is going on in Palestine, having had their eyes opened to the injustice in Iraq. The result: considerably more people taking the Palestinian side of the story into account, instead of just believing the lies of the government and media. Basically, once they realised that they were lied to about Iraq, they asked what else the government is lying about. Without 2 million people being prepared to go and protest about it, many of these people would never have had the will or the courage to question the Iraq issue in the first place.

As to the general issue of Jihad, no-one should be saying that protest should be done instead of directly fighting the enemy, if it is approprate to do that. There is a hadith which says if you see something wrong, then you must fight against it, if you cannot fight against it then you must speak out against it, if you cannot speak out against it then you should make dua. Now there are lots of reasons why many people can't actually go and directly fight the oppressors, but there are very few reasons indeed why you can't make your voice heard. And everyone can make dua.

[Strive4Allah]

yEP TOO RITE.bESIDES MARCHES DONT MAKE A that big of a difference.Again appreciate the litle we get outav it

[Muslimsister]

I think the brother meant we shouldn't think these things change anything, i didn't see him saying we shouldn't do...two different things, not? we can influence public opinion maybe, but not politics, that would be naive to think.... i agree with him in every point.

[dhakiyya]

I think the brother meant we shouldn't think these things change anything, i didn't see him saying we shouldn't do...two different things, not? we can influence public opinion maybe, but not politics, that would be naive to think.... i agree with him in every point.

it's not naive to think that protest etc. can change politics, because it does. What gave women the vote in the UK? The womens sufferage movement - which was many years of protest of the kind that I outlined. What changed South Africa from Apartied to having Nelson Mandela as president? Why have workers in the UK got rights? Because they got out on the streets and demanded rights. Why aren't the Tories still in power? Because the people voted them out. If you don't think that this is changing politics, what do you mean by "politics"? Sometimes the change is slow, sometimes it is much more sudden, but it *is* changing politics. That's what politics is. Also, public opinion itself influences politics, so if we are influencing public opinion (which we are) that in turn will have an effect on politics. Basically what I'm saying is don't give up just because you don't get instant results, because that's what the oppressors want you to do. They want all the protestors to give up and leave them alone. When they eventually see that we ain't going to do that.... that's when they are forced to make changes.

[Muslimsister]

Salam, sis, take it easy... i meant what the bro was saying,politics to do with muslims around the world...these little "advances" here in the west sure don't help the suffering majority of muslims... it's good if u still believe in all that, mashaAllah, i've lost my belief...

[Mossy]

Let us not forget that muslims procreate faster than most other religions. Give it a few more years and we'll have the majority in the UK. This, combined with greater participation in the electoral system (for those who do not deem it bida shirk kuffar), means that the number of muslim mp's will grow exponentially - especially as muslim communities tend to cluster rather than integrate. More mp's = more electoral clout. More electoral clout = more changes made. I wouldn't say that's an impossible line of development.. Would you?

[dhakiyya]

sorry sis, I didn't mean to come across in any negative way... I can be somewhat over zealous at times :rolleyes: .....don't lose your belief, sometimes change takes a long time. Injustice happens because people let it happen, in the west we have much more power to change things than our brothers and sisters living under oppression and occupation have. If the actions can't stop the suffering of this generation, maybe they can stop some of the suffering of the next generation, or at least prevent more politicians getting away with worse crimes.

I remember a story about starfish... a man was walking along a beach, were millions of starfish and other sea creatures were washed up on a beach from a tidal wave. He despaired at the loss of life, and the suffering on the creatures, who were all dying. Some way along the beach, he saw a boy throwing some of the starfish back into the sea. The man said to the boy "surely you don't think that throwing a few starfish back into the sea will make any difference at all?" and the boy replied, "For most of them, maybe not, but for this one," he threw one back into the sea, "it makes all the difference in the world."

Okay, the story might be a bit cheesy, but you see the point... small things can make a difference.

So basically, if going and protesting against Israel means that one less Palestinian kid gets shot, or one less house gets bulldozed...

[dhakiyya]

Just as an example of the importance of international protest and pressure, here's what I found in my intray 1 minute ago when I just checked my mail...

"Dear friend:

Rafah children appeal to the world:" Stop the daily incursions against our camps" "stop demolishing houses policy"

Have you heard the yelling of Rafah children? Does the time came to get out from that international silence?!"

Rafah Children appeal to you to spread their voice and to publish about the plights, will you let them down?!

Please read and forwards to your friend governments and all of your people and let them know about what is happening here.

Please visit Rafah Today website and forward to your friends:
www.rafahtoday.org

************************************************** *************************
************************************************** ***********************

The sender is a young man who runs his website pretty well single
handed. He's also the photographer whose pics we have used on the cover of
Palestine News this time.- PSC"

[Muslimsister]

I got your point, sis, just the country u chose as an example was a bad one,...they sure don't care even if freedomactivists stay under those bulldozers....the very last country in the world to care about public opinion, even of its own citizens... and sametime the most influential one, especially in the media. hmmmm....

Let's get back to the du'a part, lol! That's the best help anyway, as nothing happens without Allah's permission!

[dhakiyya]

I got your point, sis, just the country u chose as an example was a bad one,...they sure don't care even if freedomactivists stay under those bulldozers....the very last country in the world to care about public opinion, even of its own citizens... and sametime the most influential one, especially in the media. hmmmm....

Let's get back to the du'a part, lol! That's the best help anyway, as nothing happens without Allah's permission!

I'd still beg to differ... how many years did it take to force South Africa to change....? but it happened in the end, and it happened through campaigning, not because the racist pro aparteid people woke up one day and just decided to let the black people vote. And peoples belief that what we're doing isn't changing anything isn't going to stop me and thousands of others from trying to change things. (there's a mujahida logo on this other forum I'm on that I could use right now :D)

yes. everyone can do dua. :) May Allah help those who are fighting for freedom and justice and may Allah make the oppressors see the evil they are doing and repent and return to Allah. Allahu akbar!

Please forgive me if I come across as a ranting loonie, but I'm sure you can imagine I feel very strongly about oppression, and want to do what I can to prevent it. "oppression is worse than killing"

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

"these little "advances" here in the west sure don't help the suffering majority of muslims"

...and likewise Jihad without a binding islamic force with a sincere Islamic leader utilising the vast resources of the islamic lands and its allies against the kuffar, fighting for the dominance of Islam after invitation to Allah - not for a piece of land - cannot for sure solve the problems for the Muslims; it needs much more of a collective effort which is not just Jihad on its own.

Allahu a'lam

[Strive4Allah]

Umm hmm...