Beard According to the Sunni Schools of Thought

[faqir]

:salam:

HANBALI FIQH:

http://mac.abc.se/home/onesr/h/120.html




Regarding the beard: the obligation is not shaving it off. The sunnah is to just let it grow to its natural length.

It is permissible to trim the beard, though it is better not to trim it to a length less than the width of your palm.

Someone who habitually shaves their beard without having a legal excuse for doing so is considered morally corrupt, and it is invalid to pray the five daily prayers behind them.

Please search the group archive for more articles on this subject.

And Allah knows best.

wa al-salamu `alaykum
--

Musa Furber



see also:

http://mac.abc.se/home/onesr/h/65.html

[faqir]

SHAFI'I MADHAB:


http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00001768.aspx


In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

Is it haram to shave the beard?

Imam al-Shafi‘i is reported to have said that shaving the beard is forbidden (haram). This is not, however, the position taken by the Shafi‘i school.[1]

The soundest position in the Shafi‘i school is that shaving the beard is disliked (makruh) and not forbidden (haram).

This is the position of all the important figures in the late Shafi‘i school, such as Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Muhammad al-Ramli, al-Khatib al-Shirbini, and Shaykh al-Islam Zakariyya al-Ansari (Allah be pleased with all of them). (I‘anatu’l-Talibin, 2.341). Ibn Hajar has mentioned that this was the position of both Imam Nawawi and Imam Rafi‘i (Hashiyat Shirwani, 9.376). Imam Nawawi explicitly mentions that it is disliked to shave the beard in his commentary on Sahih Muslim and also in his Rawdat al-Talibin. Anyone familiar with the works of the school will realize that the agreement of all these scholars seals the case as far as the position of the school is concerned.

What is the ruling of trimming the beard?

To trim the beard is also disliked. It is not forbidden, as can be inferred a fortiori from the ruling regarding shaving the beard (if it is not forbidden to shave the beard, how can it be forbidden to trim it?). Ibn Hajar says in his Tuhfa:

“The outword purport (dhahir) of what our imams say is that it is unconditionally disliked to trim the beard.” (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.376)

What is the sunna length of the beard?

The optimal length of the beard is to leave it uncut and not touch it at all, as mentioned by Ibn Hajar above. Anything less than this optimal length is disliked. Ibn Hajar foresees the objection that this would result in making one’s appearance ugly by saying that this would only occur if one neglected caring for one’s beard by not washing or oiling it. (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.376).

What constitutes a minimum beard?

I have heard through Shaykh Amjad Rasheed of Amman (who studied in Hadramawt), that the Shafi‘is of Hadramawt say that someone who grows hair on his chin is legally considered to have kept a beard. As such, a goatee would minimally fulfill the sunna of keeping a beard, although it would obviously be superior to keep a fuller beard. The level of disliked-ness (karahah) in which one is engaged is commensurate with one’s distance from the optimal (uncut) beard.

The way of caution

Other schools of fiqh are not as lenient regarding the beard. The Hanafis and Hanbalis both hold, for example, that keeping a beard is obligatory (I don’t know the position of the Malikis; perhaps one of the Californians could get a referenced answer from Zaytuna regarding this).[2] Despite the fact that the official position of the Shafi‘i school is that shaving one’s beard is disliked, many prominent Shafi‘is (al-Halimi among the early Shafi‘is and al-Adhra‘i, Ibn al-Rif‘ah, Zayn al-Din al-Malibari, and Ibn Ziyad among the later ones) have taken the opinion that it is forbidden. As such, the way of caution in one’s religion would be to keep a full beard. Sidi Omar recently quoted Habib ‘Ali as saying that it does not befit a student of knowledge to shave his beard.

And Allah knows best.

Hamza Karamali and Mostafa Azzam.

_________________________

Notes

[1] Those unfamiliar with the concept of a “madhhab” are often under the impression that to follow the school of a particular Imam means to follow all his positions “no matter what”. This is not true. Each of the four schools of fiqh consisted of hundreds of top-notch scholars who were experts in a wide range of Islamic sciences. Over the generations, these scholars checked and refined the positions of the Imam of the school and the positions of the scholars who came before them. The late books of each school represent the collective effort of a whole school, and it is not uncommon to find that the position adopted by the school is contrary to the position of the particular Imam that the school is attributed to. Someone who really understands this will appreciate how absurd it is for someone to come along in the twenty - first century and claim that something recorded in the late books of a school has no proof behind it. To make such a claim is to accuse a millennium of Islamic genius of being sub-par (or even worse) “blind-followers who turn away from the Qur’an and Sunna”.

[2] Posts sent out on this list are meant primarily for followers of the Shafi‘i school. It is forbidden (haram) to constantly seek out dispensations, and so I omit mentioning positions of other schools when they are more lenient than the position of the Shafi‘is. When these positions are stricter than the position of the Shafi‘i school, however, it is good to mention them, since the way of taqwa entails being precautionary in one’s religion by avoiding what any of the four schools have ruled as being forbidden. In fulfilling the stricter position of another school, one, of course, also fulfills the more lenient position of the Shafi`I school.

see also:

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002479.aspx

.

[faqir]

MALIKI MADHAB:

www.theguidinghelper.com


> Where does the beard that is wajib to grow - start's and
> end's? I am so confused, i do not wish to shave any hair that is
> part of the chin. Please give me some illustration, picture or a
> simple and clear way to show me where the hairs start and end.
> (this is every important)

First of all, please note that this is our standard response to
this question:

Please refer to footnote #866 of the *Notes of Sources* for the
Main Text of the Guiding Helper.

The reference for these opinions are taken from the accepted
Maliki Book al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah [QF:V1:167:3-4].

We are narrating the opinion that it is permissible to remove
the cheek hair or shape the beard with a razor.

Another valid opinion in the Maliki School is that keeping
a beard is not wajib at all - but is a sunnah. Thus, you will see
that many contemporary and qualified (and pious) imams and
scholars in Morocco do not have a beard at all.

We summarize the opinions that we are narrating about the beard in the
*Notes of Sources* for the Main Text of the Guiding Helper, entry 1071.

References:
Footnote 2157 of the Explanatory Notes and associated entries in the Notes
of Sources.

As for where it starts and ends in the Maliki School, we do not feel
that giving limits to the nanometer is proper. Rather according to
the opinion we are narrating (which is based on the definition of the lihyah
in Arabic which is the hair on the two bones that hold the teeth
[Ref: al-Qamus al-Wajiz]):

a) It is permissible to shave the cheek hair (and neck hair) and unlawful
to shave the hair above and below the mouth
(one may trim this hair though -as we are narrating the opinion
that ihfa' al-lihyah (letting the beard grow) is only mandub
and this is in conformity with the popular opinion in the school
which labels all acts of fitrah as mandub and not wajib).

> I would be grateful if u could answer this also. many
> layman and some scholars of the hanafi school have said that
> shaving the beard is haram in the malaki school and growing
> the beard is fard, to a fistful.The 2 books from an indo/pak
> scholar and a salafi book mentin quotes from malaki scholars
> and books. Which i will produce below:

This scholar is probably just trying to back up his arguments
and claims. Many scholars state things like "this is agreed
upon by all four schools" as an instructive tool.

The real meaning of this is that "major scholars in all
four schools have stated this".

If you really want to know what is agreed upon by all
major scholars of our din you should refer to
Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdasi's book "Al-Mughni".

Anyone with deep knowledge of Jurisprudence knows that
differences of opinion exist within each school of knowledge.
And the way these differences are resolved is by coming up
with a "popular" and "trusted" opinion which is taught
to the masses and calling the other opinions
"minority" opinions which also have validity within the
school.

We would recommend books such as Bidayah al-Mujtahid
wa Niyahah al-Muqtasid (Averroes) and al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah
(Ibn Juzayy al-Kalbi) for people interested in learning how many
valid opinions issued by authentic scholars in our din can exist
for any one subject.

[As a side note, having popular views in a madh-hab along
with acceptable minority views ensures that the teachers of the school
will not become dogmatic or "sect-minded" [e.g., like some unqualified
people who label any one who does not hold their particular views to be
part of a misguided sect.]


and




1. What is the minimum and maximum facial hair for a man if he
wants to avoid doing anything makruh? For example, is a trim beard
or goatee acceptable or is it makruh? Also, is there a maximum
length for the beard beyond which it is makruh?



Ustadh Abdullah's response:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tariqul-Islam/

Imam Malik reports in Muwatta that Ibn Umar said, "The Messenger of
Allah - may Allah bless and grant him peace - ordered the trimming
of mustaches and the release of beards." Sheikh Al-'Adawi says while
commenting on Sheikh Abul-Hasan's commentary on the Risalah,
"It (i.e. the command) is for obligation if disfigurement (of the
face) results from clipping (the beard). And (it is) for
recommendation if disfigurement doesn't occur from clipping (the
beard) and (if) it isn't very long according to what is apparent
(from the hadith)."

In other words, if clipping the beard leads to a disfigurement of a
person's face or appearance, it is haram for one to clip it. And if
clipping the beard doesn't lead to disfigurement of one's
appearance, then the command given by the Prophet (pbuh) is taken to
be merely a recommendation.

Then Sheikh Al-'Adawi says, "And to abandon the clipping of the
beard necessitates keeping it long (takbiraha). Ibn Daqiq Al-'Id
said it."

Imam Malik said (according to Ibn Abi Zaid), "There no harm in
taking from its length when it becomes very long."

Abul-Hasan says about his statement "There is no harm" that it
means "It is recommended to take from it" when it becomes very long.

Then he says, "What is well known is that there is no limit to how
much can be taken from it. Except that he should not leave it (to
grow so long) for the purpose of being known for it."

This means that there is no limit to how much can be taken off
except that it should not be totally removed. But the maximum is the
point that it grows before it grows beyond the normal size of a
man's beard to the extent that one sticks out more than anyone else.

Sheikh Al-'Adawi says, "Likewise, it is favorable to take from its
width (when it is very long) as Ibnul-Baji said."

Then he says, "And some of the commentators (on the Risalah)
explained "lengthiness" (kathrah) as being for it (i.e. the beard)
to go beyond what is customary for most people. That is, it is
recommended for him to clip what is beyond that, since to allow it
to remain disfigures the appearance. Then if you say, "What is the
ruling of clipping when it isn't extremely long or (it it's) a
little long? I'd say, "Some of the commentators have expressed that
clipping (it) is haram if it hasn't grown (very) long like for one
to shave (shave). But the apparent interpretation (of the text) is
that the point of prohibition - as we have already demonstrated to
you - is when clipping results in disfigurement. And it is
apparently clear in the absence of lengthiness or small lengthiness
when one goes overboard in clipping. As for when it is a little long
and clipping it doesn't produce disfigurement, then the apparently
correct interpretation is that it is contrary to what is more
appropriate (khilaf al-awla).

That should answer your question, in sha Allah.

[faqir]

HANAFI MADHAB:

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000623.aspx


Do you know of the varying views expressed by the Hanafi scholars on the length of the beard? In particular, what is considered sunnah or mustahab etc?




In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate Most Merciful,

In the Durr al-Mukhtar is says that the beard's "...sunnah length is a fistful... And as for shortening it when it is less than that, as some North Africans and effeminate men do, this is something no one [i.e. of the Hanafi scholars] has said is permitted..." Ibn Abidin concurred with this in his supercommentary Radd al-Muhtar. The scholars explain that "sunnah length" here means, "the length affirmed by the sunnah," though the ruling of this length is that it is wajib (necessary), as clearly understood from that which comes after in the same text.

This position is also confirmed in other works, such as al-Bahr al-Ra'iq, Fath al-Qadir, and al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya. This is what I learned from my teachers, both Syrian and Indian, and is mentioned in the books of fatawa as well.

The evidence, from the Prophet's practice, and repeated instructions to, "Lengthen your beards and trim your mustaches," [Muslim] would confirm this.

Shaykh Nuh translated some of these: [See his article On Keeping the Beard, at http://www.masud.co.uk]

Ibn 'Umar relates from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that he said: "Do otherwise than those who ascribe partners to Allah (al-mushrikin): leave beards be, and trim mustaches." And ibn 'Umar, when he went on hajj or 'umra, grasped his beard with his hand, and removed what was in excess of it (Sahih al-Bukhari. 9 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint (9 vols. in 3). Beirut: Dar al-Jil, n.d., 7.206: 5892 and Sahih Muslim, 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 1.222: 259).

Shaykh Nuh then said, "In his commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari, the great Hanafi hadith Imam Badr al-Din al-'Ayni says:

If one objects: "What does 'leave beards be' mean, when 'to leave be' (al-i'fa') literally means 'to make plenteous,' and there are people, who, if they were to leave their beard, following the outward sense of leave beards be, their beard would become outrageous in length and width, and look disgusting, so that the person would become a topic of conversation, or a proverb"--The reply is that it is established from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that this hadith is conditioned by a specific context [i.e. the demand to do the contrary to what the Persians and non-Arabs did, established by the first words of the hadith], and that the amount and definition of the beard that is unlawful to leave uncut have been differed upon by the early Muslims . . . . The meaning, in my opinion, is "as long as it does not exceed what is customary among [religious] people." 'Ata' [ibn Abi Rabah, Mufti of Mecca, d. 114/732), has said, "There is no harm in trimming a little from the length and sides of his beard, if it grows large and long, in order to avoid notoriety, or if one risks being made fun of" ('Umda al-qari sharh Sahih al-Bukhari. 20 vols. Cairo: Mustafa Babi al-Halabi, 1392/1972, 18.76)

As one scholar used to say, "This is all I have, and that which others have may well be much better."

And Allah knows best.
Faraz Rabbani.

[faqir]

Trim Beards and Sin?

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00004359.aspx


Trim Beards and True Love?

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000724.aspx


Criticising Major Scholars For Having Trim Beards?

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000638.aspx


Beard Questions....

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000621.aspx

[Saleel]

:salam:

The Shariah Length of the Beard - Mufti Elias, Al-Hidayah.

:salam:

[IlyasLahoz]

On Keeping the Beard (http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/beard.htm)
Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller

[veiledwithhonour]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I've always been taught (even though I'm a sister) that the strongest consensus in the four madhabs is that the beard is wajib not merely "recommended" ??? If it is considered "makrooh" to shave isn't this giving ppl the go ahead to shave off their beards? I mean ppl will always take the easiest route out, it's human nature. So on seeing the word makrooh they would conclude it's only "disliked" by Allah, but rather it's "detested". Why would the Sahabah (ra) have strived so hard to emulate the prophet (Saw) in this beautiful way, there are many good reasons for keeping the beard, and very few valid reasons for not. What's more it was one of the things that was listed as part of the fithra to trim the mustache and keep the beard...so I'm kinder confused now.

Please read the following responses i found regarding the madhabs views on this issue before you respond, jazak'Allah.

http://www.islam.tc/beard/beard6.html
http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/Men.htm ,scroll down to the relevant section

fi Aman'allah

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum noble sister,

I would not take Hanafi fiqh from a Hanbali nor should we take rulings of Shafi'i fiqh or Maliki or Hanbali fiqh from a Hanafi shaykh.

The ruling of the Shafi'i madhab [and the other Madhahib] is outlined above from the words of the scholars of their own respective Madhab.

Please refer also to "The Reliance of the Traveller" for further clarification on the Shafi'i Madhab's position on the beard.



Also take note that we have stated time and again that we are unable to pass any verdict on the Shaafi’ee, Maaliki or Hanbali Madhab. Competent Ulama should be consulted for the preferred view of each Madhab.

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12568


Wasalam.

[faqir]

:salam:

I recently came across a rather lengthy but informative article by Shaykh Afifi al-Akiti on the stance of the Shafi'is regarding the beard:

Here is the link (http://www.livingislam.org/maa/mmsb_e.html) - there is also another article there on the issue of socks being waterproof.


Question:

Some people have quoted from Habib 'Ali (he was just here on his first ever trip to Syria) that according to the Shafi'is, the beard is only that which grows on the chin so [? to be deleted I think] and so there is no karaha in shaving everything else. My sheikh for Shafi'i fiqh does not agree with this, and he said that several of the Yemeni Shafi'is that he has met disagree with what is being quoted from Habib 'Ali. One of the proofs for this is something that Imam al-Nawawi quotes from Imam al-Ghazali in Al-Ihya, quoted from Qut al-Qutulub [al-Qulub; by Abu Talib al-Makki] regarding several things that are disliked with the beard. They include taking too much or leaving too much, which is explained to mean shaving the head and taking too much of the beard with it or leaving too much of the beard. These two scenarios can only be understood if the sideburns ('aridan) are included as part of the beard.





II. As for the beard:


Any Shafi'i fiqh students, who have studied the Fath al-Qarib, Fath al-Mu'in and Fath al-Wahhab (the 3 most important manuals that are usually taught in a systematic Shafi'i curriculum and school) should know the definition of a beard [lihya; not with a fatha, since 'lahya' are the jawbones and is one of the technical terms used when defining the areas of al-fard, namely that which is included in the washing of the face during the wudu']. The lihya is: "that which grows on the chin" [a famous phrase from the Fath al-Mu'in: wa-lihyatin wa-hiya ma nabata 'ala al-dhaqani; I'anat al-Talibin, 1:50]. Indeed, according to the well-established technical vocabulary of our school, the lateral hairs ['aridan] are not considered to be part of the lihya (as the matn of the Fath al-Mu'in, for example, continues to make it unequivocally clear such as when it goes on to define the sideburn or 'arid, anew, and being clearly different from the definition of the beard or lihya above: "the 'arid [whiskers at the side of the face, or for lack of a better term, "lateral hair" or "side hair" of the face which will include "jaw hair" (and including, of course, any "cheek hair" - if it grows genetically that high) or I suppose, another English term maybe sideburns - if this term can accommodate all of these facial hair] is that [of the facial hair] which goes down to [meet] the beard." [Ibid.]). The only thing in common between the lateral hairs and the beard in our school, is that the lateral hairs are treated like the beard in their hukm of washing the face during wudu': if it is khafifa [thin], then, its inner and outer hair and skin beneath must be washed; if it is kathifa [thick], then, it is only obligatory to wash the outer hair but only Sunna or recommended to do takhlil [to comb it with one's wet fingers].

Given that the Qawl Sahih [Sound Position] of Imam al-Nawawi (al-Nawawi, al-Majmu', 1:357-358) which is also the Qawl Mu'tamad [Relied Upon Position] in our school (I'anat, 2:386; this, despite when the author of the Fath al-Mu'in followed the weaker opinion, Sayyid al-Bakri immediately makes known the well-accepted position), that shaving the lihya is only Makruh, and not Haram, the statement made by Habib 'Ali of Dar al-Mustafa, Tarim, is completely justified and free from any blame. Indeed, there is no karaha or dislikedness in shaving the lateral hairs or anything else that is not included to be part of the lihya, defined by our jurists. There is no where more clearer than what can be found in the Fatwa of Imam al-Ramli, one of the principal late figures of the Shafi'i school:

"Question: Is it Haram to shave and trim the [hair of the] chin [dhaqan; i.e., what is meant here is of course, the 'hair of the chin,' that is to say, the beard; notice that Imam al-Ramli purposely used the phrase, 'dhaqan' in the question (and not 'lihya') but used 'lihya' in his answer--this is to prevent any ambiguity arising from what is meant by the word 'beard']? Answer: To shave and trim the beard [lihya] of a man is Makruh, and not Haram. Whereas the statement of [Qadi] al-Halimi [a predecessor of Imam al-Ghazali, a Shafi'i Qadi and Muhaddith in Bukhara; d. 403 H/1012] in his Minhaj [fi Shu'ab al-Iman, (note, not a work of fiqh) that] 'it is not permissible for anyone to shave off his beard and eyebrows', is a Weak Position [Dai'f]." [al-Ramli, Fatawa, 4:69].

The text of the Ihya' (which is not a fiqh work, but a work on adab and tasawwuf, that usually presents rulings stricter than the official Shafi'i positions - for reasons following the way of Wara' and scrupulousness out of piety, taking the way of caution and leaving the rukhsa and dispensations), in this case, does not, in the end, depart from the minimum legal position that shaving the beard is Makruh. In fact, al-Ghazali, caused a stir amongst our jurists when he presented a more lenient ruling such as when he said that it is permissible [Mubah; in that, it is not Makruh] to trim the beard for the sake of 'keeping up appearances' (while the position of our school is still, shaving or trimming the beard in any way, is Makruh):

"The directive here [of Ibn 'Umar and a group of the Tabi'in, which al-Sha'bi and Ibn Sirin consider good [meaning Mandub or recommended], that there is no harm in a man grasping his beard with his hand, and whatever exceeds that, he cuts] is more accurate [qarib; as opposed to the opinions of al-Hasan al-Basri and Qatada (may Allah be pleased with all of them, notwithstanding their khilaf!) (which is the position of the Shafi'is) that it is unconditionally Makruh to trim the beard, even if it is longer or lesser than what some say to be the minimum, that is, a 'handful'] if* it does not lead to cutting off the beard [completely] and rounding it off the sides [i.e., a clean-shaven face]. Because [read "fa'-ta'lil" here because of "inna"] [the resulting] excessive length may make the appearance ugly, and may incite backbiters with ridiculing him, then, there is no harm [if the beard is trimmed] in accordance with this intention, [that is] to guard against (the excessive length that may make the appearance ugly). [al-Ghazali, Ihya', 1:168].

* "if" is understood as "when at the same time," because the conditional particle, "in-shartiyya" is read like "idh-zarfiyya" or "idha" here.

For this reason, al-Nawawi (in the Majmu', above) and Ibn Hajar, immediately corrected al-Ghazali and reaffirmed the well-accepted Shafi'iyya position, that is, to remove the beard in any way, even if a little, is Makruh. That is why Ibn Hajar says in the Tuhfa: "Whereas the claim [i.e., made by al-Ghazali], then, that 'it makes the appearance ugly' [and therefore it is not Makruh to trim the beard for this reason] is rejected [mamnu']. On the contrary, what is ugly [mushawwah] is to abandon its maintenance by [not] washing and oiling." [Ibn Hajar, Tuhfa, 12:303].

Given that the Shafi'i school has the most lenient fiqhi position regarding the beard (in that it is not Haram to shave it off, even completely (but like leaving the khuff, above, it becomes Haram when one does this, intending to go against the Prophetic Example or thinking that the sunna of the non-Muslims is superior to ours), unlike the Hanafis, for instance, that to trim the beard when it is less than the minimum is Haram), our Imams stress the 'unconditional' nature of the dislikedness in trimming the beard; and because of the absolute Makruh, our school does not strictly set a minimum limit for the beard. This explains why scholars like al-Nawawi and Ibn Hajar, consider the opinions of those setting a minimum limit for the beard (such as al-Ghazali and later on, the Mufti of Zabid, al-Ashkhar (d. 903 H/1497), who followed one of Imam al-Adhra'i's conflicting opinions, set the minimum limit of the beard to be the throat or the 'handful', which basically means that what grows beyond the 'handful' or the 'minimum limit', so to speak, is no longer considered Makruh to cut off [Ba 'Alawi, Bughya al-Mustarshidin, 20]) to be even more lenient than what is already a lenient position vis-a-vis the four schools of fiqh. That is why the position of the school remains that it is unconditionally Makruh to trim or shave the beard in any way.

As from your statement, "They include taking too much or leaving too much, which is explained to mean shaving the head [? - this explanation, I'm sure, is not what was meant] and taking too much of the beard with it or leaving too much of the beard. These two scenarios can only be understood if the sideburns ('aridan) are included as part of the beard," the explanation and the inference made that the beard includes other than that which grows on the chin, is, I am afraid, wrong (mamnu'; for reasons that will be made clear below, but most important of all is, what is found in the Ihya' is not a hukm fiqhi or legal judgement). Al-Ghazali goes on to say (this is the point where Imam al-Ghazali begins to selectively borrow from the Qut al-Qulub of Abu Talib al-Makki):

"Al-Nakha'i (may Allah be pleased with him!) said: "I am amazed at why a reasonable man whose beard is long does not cut it off, and make it 'between two beards' [i.e., a majaz or figurative expression to mean 'a beard that is not too long and not too short'], for moderation is good in everything." For this reason, it is said: "The longer the beard, the smaller the mind."" [Ihya', 1:168; cf. al-Makki, Qut, 3:361].

The 'taking too much or leaving too much' from the beard or more appropriately, the 'avoiding its being too long and its being too short' scenario appears only in this metaphor of al-Nakha'i, still, not, as you thought, in the Qut al-Qulub part VIA al-Ghazali's Ihya', which discusses the ten Makruh (note, still not Haram) practices relating to the beard. Instead, what appears in that latter part, contradicts the 'avoiding its being too long and its being too short scenario', since there, al-Ghazali was actually saying: to exceed (ziyada) the beard (and no mention of naqs or reduction here, in spite what was originally written by al-Makki) beyond 'its limit' is what is in fact Makruh (and incidentally, there is already mention of lateral hairs here):

"The seventh [practice that is Makruh concerning the beard] is: allowing it to exceed [ziyada; notice al-Ghazali kept the verb 'zada yazidu ziyadatan', and did not replace it with tawfir (to let grow) or i'fa (to keep or leave it alone), while ziyada has also the meaning of to add or make addition of something to something else]. That is to say, to exceed the lateral hairs [growing out] of the temples [in fiqh, this is technically known as the 'idhar], namely, [that it grows] from the hair of the head until it goes beyond the jawbones and reaching ultimately to halfway down the cheeks. This [to allow the 'excesses' of the 'beard'], is inconsistent with the state of the people of righteousness [i.e., the Pious Predecessors or the Salaf]." [Ihya', 1:170]. (This circumstance can be seen clearest when the head is shaved and if that person is genetically able to grow the lateral hairs and the 'idhar; in the published version of this answer, there will be an illustration, insha' Allah!)

It should be mentioned here (without, I hope, making it complicated, or 'surprising'), that al-Ghazali had, in fact, edited the original words of Abu Talib al-Makki. Al-Makki, for example, originally mentions that among the disliked practices relating to the beard, is to exceed it and to be deficient of it (in other words, defining the maximum and what is less than the minimum limits of the beard, according to al-Makki (whose tariqa in fiqh was not Shafi'i, but Hanafi):

"Among this [from the 12 Makruh (not the 10 like in the Ihya') practices relating to the beard] is its deficiency [nuqsan] and excess [ziyada]. That is to say [the excess is], to exceed the lateral hairs [growing out] of the temple [bones] from the hair of the head until it goes beyond the jawbones, and that is the limit [hadd] of the beard. Or, the deficiency of the beard, is to be deficient [by omitting, not letting it grow, or trimming it] from the jawbones to halfway up the cheeks, and that is similar to (the hukm of exceeding the beard)." [al-Makki, Qut al-Qulub, 3:357].

So it should be clear to us by now that the words of al-Makki's Qut al-Qulub have been carefully and purposely emended by al-Ghazali, and in the edited version (which we can now say, al-Ghazali's own words), al-Ghazali does not define the lateral hairs to be a part of the beard. (In particular, the absence of al-Makki's original words, wa-dhalika huwa haddu l-lihyati [and that is limit of the beard], is telling.) That is why al-Ghazali does not mention his source here (that it is from the Qut al-Qulub), and specialists on Ghazalian studies will be able to confirm that this is the usual practice in almost all of al-Ghazali's works: not to mention the source when the carefully edited portions of the source text makes subtle but crucial departures from the original author. The fact that al-Ghazali's emended discussion is now about the dislikedness of letting the 'beard' grow (not to mention the conspicuous omission of al-Makki's 'nuqsan'), should, for Shafi'is, be a clear indication that he is not talking about the 'conventional' beard (i.e., that which grows on the chin); because the alternative would mean that it will not be Makruh to trim off the beard. This is the removal of your obstacle [zawal al-mani', Amin]! Moreover, even if one wanted to push the boundaries of Arabic majaz, of al-Nakha'i's 'between two beards' to include the lateral hairs as a part of the beard, then one must remember that this still does not amount to a legal definition [hadd] of lihya, for neither the Ihya' nor the Qut are works of fiqh. In fact, rhetorical and figurative devices (found aplenty in works like the Ihya') are not a normal feature of fiqhi literature. Rather, fiqhi works are supposed to be 'sober' and 'dry' so that it should be crystal clear in order to leave no room for confusion, since the 'minimum' legal rulings are what are sought for from these works, as any beginner students of Fiqh who are familiar with the Mawdu' [subject-matter] of 'ilm fiqh, knows that it concerns "the actions of the Mukallaf [legally responsible person] in which the [five] legal rulings are presented to them." Failing that, we have the shuruh [commentaries] and the hawashi [super-commentaries] to shed light upon anything that seems unclear in the matn [main text]. (We can already see that the style of al-Ghazali's works on 'proper' fiqh like the Wajiz and Wasit differs considerably from the style of the Ihya' and his other popular works.)

In the fiqhi literature, we find for example, Sayyid al-Bakri confirming that al-Ghazali followed the majority [Jumhur; Shafi'i] opinion, in that it is Makruh to shave or trim the beard. [I'anat, 2:386]. (Al-Ghazali's two surviving works on fiqh, the Wajiz and Wasit, the Short and Middle Abridgement of his teacher's massive commentary on the Mukhtasar of Imam al-Muzani, al-Juwayni's Nihaya al-Matlab, do not have a discussion on the beard; his Longest Abridgement, the Basit, is not extant in full and as far as we know today, only fragments of this work survives in manuscript form--and it is in the interest of Shafi'i scholars worldwide to seek out this lost treasure! His shortest work on fiqh, the Khulasa (al-Ghazali's own abridgement on al-Muzani's al-Mukhtasar), which fortunately survives, but unfortunately, the 100 folios of handwritten manuscript remains unedited in the Sulaymaniyya Library at Istanbul (MS Sulaimaniye 442; for which the author has a copy of it), too, does not discuss the beard. As for his earliest 'work(s)' on fiqh, the Ta'liqa fi Furu' al-Fiqh al-Shafi'i - which is lost - was never published by him.)

Furthermore, unlike the khilaf whether it is Makruh or Haram to shave the beard in the first place, there is no khilaf in our school regarding the definition of the beard that includes other than 'what grows on the chin'; otherwise we will have to find in places where the hukm of trimming the beard is discussed (either in Bab 'Aqiqa or Siwak), a qualification saying that the lihya also includes the 'aridan (for which there is no such precedent). Imam al-Ramli's unequivocal fatwa above is the standard qawl used by any Shafi'i teachers to dispel the notion that the lateral hairs are a part of the beard. So with all due respect to your Shafi'i teachers, their objections to Habib 'Ali's statement that "there is no karaha in shaving everything else [other than what grows on the chin]", is either:

(a) with the hukm of Makruh or dislikedness for shaving the beard itself, or

(b) with the definition of a beard that includes other than what grows on the chin.

If it is with the latter, then their objection has to be off the mark, since that understanding of the beard, as such, is alien to our school, and if they were teaching the Fath al-Mu'in, for example, they would surely know this fact. If it is with the former, then your teachers are following the Qawl Marjuh or the alternative position (in fact, strictly speaking, it is the Qawl Da'if or the Weak Position) of the school in saying that it is Haram to shave the beard (which only a minority of Shafi'i jurists adopted this position such as, the most cited one was Qadi al-Halimi above; and even with this stricter hukm, it is only what grows on the chin). (Normally, one is not allowed to follow the weak position, except if it is for personal practice [li-'amal nafsih], and if it is not for taking rukhsa--in fact, in this case, it is leaving a rukhsa in view of adopting the more strict or 'azima position.) Despite this, the relied upon fiqhi opinion for the Shafi'is, for 'amma (public) as well as khassa (scholars), by living (such as Habib Zayn Ibn Sumayt al-Madani) as well as those recently moved-from-this-world authorities (such as, the well-known Musnid al-Waqt, Shaykh Muhammad Yasin al-Fadani al-Makki) is still that it is Makruh (all four Tawa'if of the school, al-Nawawi and al-Rafi'i, Ibn Hajar and al-Ramli, including Shaykh al-Islam Zakariyya al-Ansari, concur on this hukm)--and if someone wants to follow the qawl and position which says that it is Haram to shave, then yes by all means please do so, but know that that person is following the 'alternative position', and one must not, therefore, censure others for following the well-accepted position of the school. Furthermore, that when one does that, one is intending to follow the stricter position, and doing so out of Wara' and doing what is better (and better still to keep to oneself), but, the minimum fiqhi position for 'amal and ta'lim, for practice and instruction, is still, as far as the Shafi'is are concerned, that I'fa' wa Tawfir al-Lihya [leaving or keeping the beard] is Sunna or recommended, not Wajib, while Halq al-Lihya [shaving or removing the beard] is Makruh, not Haram. The fiqh ruling is always easy, the difficulty is always with its adab; fiqhi works and judgements are always dry save with its close companion, Tasawwuf. It could be, therefore, that one may be conflating the minimum ruling (its fiqhi ruling) with the optimal ruling (its adab/tasawwuf judgement).

In the case that your teachers have raised those objections, then it would only be appropriate for us as students to think the best of our teachers in return (and hasten to remember the service they have rendered to us - no matter how small - and the big debt we will owe them in the hereafter), and to assume (without asking them) that they are in fact taking the way of caution that is beyond the fiqhi ruling; after that, if any conflicting issues remain, then as students, it is only right that we make ta'wil and interpret their confusing statements in order to do what students are expected to do in this situation, to prevent mukhalafa al-qulub (between the student and teacher)--doing all of this on account of acknowledging our ignorance, iftiqar and weakness on our part, and our inability to understand the wisdom behind what they were saying.

To sum up, yes, for us, legally, "the beard is only that which grows on the chin and so there is no karaha in shaving everything else." It is well-known that the Shafi'is hold the most lenient position concerning the beard. Dhaqan or what grows on the chin is the real or 'legal' beard, while what grows on the 'aridan or lateral hairs is the pseudo-beard. (That explains why the pseudo-beard is to be treated like the lihya during the wudu', despite the fact that they are, legally, two different things.) The fiqhi ruling that it being Makruh to remove in any way, applies only to what is the legal minimum, namely, the lihya and not to any of the 'arid.

On this note, I think it appropriate that we end with the following wisdom of our 'ulama al-'amilin:

rahmatu l-ummati fi ikhtilafi l-a'immati [The Umma's mercy is in the khilaf of the Imams].

May this be of benefit, wallahu wa-rasulu ahkam bi-s-sawab!

Your weak brother,

Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti ©
Oxford
16 Rabi' II 1424
17 VI 2003

Bibliography:

Ba 'Alawi, Abd al-Rahman. Bughyat al-Mustarshidin fi Talkhis Fatawa ba'd al-Muta'akhkhirin. Bulaq, 1309 H.

al-Bajuri. Hashiya 'ala Fath al-Qarib. 2 vols. Bulaq, 1288 H.

al-Bakri. Hashiya I'anat al-Talibin. 4 vols. Bulaq, 1300 H.

al-Ghazali. Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din. 4 vols. Bulaq, 1306 H.

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami. Tuhfa al-Muhtaj bi-Sharh al-Minhaj al-Nawawi in Hawashi al-Shirwani wa-Ibn 'Qasim 'ala Tuhfa al-Muhtaj. Edited by Muhammad 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Khalidi. 13 vols. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub 'Ilmiyya, 1996.

Ibn al-Mundhir. al-Ijma'. Edited by Abu Hammad Saghir Ahmad b. Muhammad Hanif. Riyad: Dar Tayyiba, 1982.

Ibn Naqib. Reliance of the Traveller [='Umdat al-Salik wa-'Uddat al-Nasik]. Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Revised ed. Evanston, IL: Sunna, 1994.

Majmu'a al-Hawashi al-Bahiyya 'ala Sharh al-'Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya. 2 vols. Bulaq, 1329 H. [A collection of super-commentaries on Imam al-Taftazani's commentary on al-Nasafi's Aqida, including al-Khayali's and al-Jundi's Hashiyats.]

al-Makki, Abu Talib. Qut al-Qulub [fi Mu'amalat al-Mahbub wa-Wasfi Tariq al-Murid ila Maqam al-Tawhid]. Edited by 'Abd al-Mun'im al-Hifni. 3 vols. Cairo: Dar al-Rashad, 1991-1996.

al-Nawawi. al-Majmu' Sharh al-Muhadhdhab. Edited by Mahmud Matraji. 22 vols. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1996.

al-Nawawi. Rawda al-Talibin wa-'Umdat al-Muftin. Edited by 'Abdullah 'Umar al-Baduri. 10 vols. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1995.

al-Ramli. Fatawa al-Ramli. In the margins of Ibn Hajar al-Haytami. al-Fatawa al-Kubra al-Fiqhiyya. 4 vols. Bulaq, 1308 H.

al-Zuhayli, Wahbah. Fiqh al-Islam wa-Adillatuh. 11 vols. 4th revised ed. Damascus: Dar al-Fikr, 1997.

[faqir]

:salam:

The Shariah Length of the Beard - Mufti Elias, Al-Hidayah.

:salam:

:salam:

I've noticed that most Deobandis are not even willing to ackowledge a difference of opinion on the issue of the beard. They like to decide the mu'tamad for the other madhabs.

I did, however, come across the following from Shaikh Zakariyya Kandahlawi in his short work entitled: wujub i`faa al lihyat (pg: 26; Maktaba al shaykh, Karachi)

The shaikh [who is of the hanafi opinion that a fistful is wajib] at least acknowledges the difference of opinion in the Maliki and Shafi'i schools (although, to be honest, even what he mentions can be debated as the madhab is not just one statement).

The key statement here is Shaikh Zakariyya's mentionning "qaal shaykhaan" - that the two shaykhs said it was disliked to shave the beard. The two shaykhs referred to here are Imam Nawawi and Imam Rafi`i, the two foremost authorities of the Shafi`i school by consensus.

wa Allahu 'Alam

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f378/faqir/hmm.jpg

:salam:

[tijaarat]

saalamAlaikum
The Deobandis should not be criticized just because they are the strictest in following sunnah. This should be seen as something good. Honestly in this world of information, we get a lot of information. We see that this scholar has this opinion and this scholar has that opinion. I am aware of that. But truth is that path of taqwa is that we follow the explicit sunnah. I also know that taqwa cannot be enforced but encouraged.
As regards to the beard, there is no hadith that the Prophet (saw) trimmed his beard. The only proof is that Abdullah bin Umar trimmed his beard was before haj that too after having a full fist. Infact, there is an authentic hadith that the Prophet (saw) had his beard extended to his chest. Now I know that there are scholars from syria and yemen who say its okay to trim beards. 'But the path of taqwa is always better and Allah also says that people with taqwa are successful not necessary people of knowledge.' (This is what Taqi Usmani said in Following a madhab)
The main reason I believe why a person does not grow his beard is two reasons.
One is either he doesnt like the sunnah (he indirectly thinks this sunnah is bad for me, makes me ugly). This is completely an act of pride against sunnah.
The other reason a person doesnt grow his beard is because he is afraid of the apprehensions of others. This is also incorrect- both reasons ensure a person is following his desires. In fact, I personaly feel that humbleness comes in a person's heart when he/she goes through difficulties for sake of Allah. That type of humbleness cannot be achieved just from reading a book.
I have asked one alim that if a person is reviving a sunnah that is dead, and he/she suffers along the way. Will he be rewarded more than the fardh? Shaykh replied yes if the intention is good, why not.

I have a book on Beard in which it says the Prophet (saw) used to oil his beard, the book mentions how could Prophet (saw) oil his beard if it was short.
Sometimes we need to realize that a shaykh is just a shaykh not a Prophet of God.
saalamAlaikum

[ridhwan]

I've noticed that most Deobandis are not even willing to ackowledge a difference of opinion on the issue of the beard. They like to decide the mu'tamad for the other madhabs.

.. /snip

The shaikh [who is of the hanafi opinion that a fistful is wajib] at least acknowledges the difference of opinion in the Maliki and Shafi'i schools (although, to be honest, even what he mentions can be debated as the madhab is not just one statement).

Not sure that I understand the intention of posting this? A link to the same book, or similar, was already posted in this thread ( click (http://www.islam.tc/beard/beard6.html) ):

1. If it is to show that Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: ..

'.. at least acknowledges the difference of opinion in the Maliki and Shafi'i schools'

Then one should translate the entire statement and also infer from the title of the book, viz. "Obligation of the Beard", what Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: perhaps was emphasising.

The following reply from Daruliftaa contains the aforementioned statement in full:

It is stated in Sharh al-Ubab: “The two shaykhs of the school (i.e. Nawawi & Rafi’i) state that it is Makruh (disliked) to shave the beard, but Ibn al-Rif’a objected to this stating that Imam Shafi’i (Allah have mercy on him) himself categorically mentioned in his book “al-Umm” that shaving the beard is unlawful (haram). Imam al-Azra’i said that the correct position of the school is that, to shave the beard without a valid medical reason is unlawful.” (Sharh al-Ubab & Hashiya Ibn Qasim al-Abbadi, 9/376)

Imam Ibn Qasim al-Abbadi also stated in his Hashiya: “It is said that, shaving of the beard is unlawful.” (See: Hashiya Ibn Qasim al-Abbadi ala Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 2/468, Kitab al-Salat)

Imam al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) states: “The correct opinion is that it is disliked to trim the beard unrestrictedly (mutlaqan), rather, it should be left uncut however it grows.” (al-Majmu’, 1/290)

Imam Ibn Hajar (Allah have mercy on him) says in his Tuhfa: “The outward purport (dhahir) of what our imams say is that it is unconditionally disliked to trim the beard.” (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.376)

The upshot of all of the above is that, all the four schools of Islamic law regard the trimming of the beard less than a fistful as blameworthy (unlawful, according to the three schools and disliked according to the Shafi’i school). Thus, one should not trim his beard less than a fistful.

(/Daruliftaa)

To clear up any doubt as to whether Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: was highlighting the obligation of the beard or acknowledging the differences; perhaps it would be best to read the entire book :insh:

wAllahu Aalam

[salman]

salamu `alaykum


To clear up any doubt as to whether Shaykh al-Hadith was highlighting the obligation of the beard or acknowledging the differences; perhaps it would be best to read the entire book

I have the book that Sidi Faqir is quoting. Shaykhul hadith highlights the obligatory nature of keeping the beard, not of keeping a fistful, whilst at the same time acknowledging the difference of some of the Shafi`is on the issue such as Imam Nawawi and Imam Rafi`i. Whether Shaykhul Hadith agrees with them or not is entirely irrelevant when it comes to establishing whether such difference [1] exists and [2] is followable, which it clearly is. His approach is clearly different then simple claiming of consensus on keeping an obligatory fistful, which I believe is what some of the brothers had issues with (since there is no such consensus).

Shaykhul Hadith, as a scholar of high rank, has every right to side with the Shafi`i scholars who deemed shaving to be impermissible, but this does not change the relied-upon position within the school and nor does it make the difference invalid/unreliable.

Of the passage you quoted, the only part Shaykhul Hadith mentions in the scanned part is:


“The two shaykhs of the school (i.e. Nawawi & Rafi’i) state that it is Makruh (disliked) to shave the beard, but Ibn al-Rif’a objected to this stating that Imam Shafi’i (Allah have mercy on him) himself categorically mentioned in his book “al-Umm” that shaving the beard is unlawful (haram). Imam al-Azra’i said that the correct position of the school is that, to shave the beard without a valid medical reason is unlawful.” (Sharh al-Ubab & Hashiya Ibn Qasim al-Abbadi, 9/376)

And the Shafi`i scholars answer what is in al Umm as follows: Link (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=3&ID=11200&CATE=418&redirect=yes)

Shaykhul Hadith's reproducing of the Maliki position is also interesting, clearly showing that within their school a fistful is not necessary.

Wasalam
Salman

[ridhwan]

:salam:


I have the book that Sidi Faqir is quoting. Shaykhul hadith highlights the obligatory nature of keeping the beard, not of keeping a fistful,

Strange that Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: never pointed that out in the Arabic version. The English translation of the booklet ( or similar ) has this remark (see link already posted):

A very important matter to which attention must be drawn here is that many regard shaving the beard as wrong and therefore they do not shave. They do not however regard shortening the beard as equally incorrect and indulge in this wrong act. Just as the Shari'ah commands the growing of the beard, so to does it prescribe the length to which it has to be grown. Therefore to grow a beard other than that which is specified is also incorrect. The Shari'ah has commanded that the length of the beard should be one fist full, when held from below the chin. According to the consensus of the Ulama it is not permissible to have a beard shorter than this. They do differ on whether a beard which is longer than required, should be shortened to this fixed length or not.

Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: is quite clear in their standpoint, in above statement, without having to read the remainder of the kitaab.


Of the passage you quoted, the only part Shaykhul Hadith mentions in the scanned part is: </snipped->first paragraph>

Yes, you have pointed out correctly. However I actually mentioned the word 'contains'. I thought it would be obvious that what part 'contains' was referring to in relation to the Arabic posted. The Arabic was only a paragraph not a series.

As regards to the rest not too fussed. I have read the various links posted and the issue has been discussed on various threads already so is more or less repetitive. I just wanted to point out the slight discrepancy in the original post alluding that such was the position of Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim:

wAllahu Aalam

[salman]

salamu `alaykum


Shaykh al-Hadith is quite clear in their standpoint, in above statement, without having to read the remainder of the kitaab.

The last part of your sentence is quite problematic in the light of the fact that it is not found anywhere in the section on "miqdar al lihyat" and the qawl of the two shaykhs clearly negates such ijma` and those among the Shafi`is who followed them i.e. among the verifiers. Shaykh Zakariyya explicitly states that these scholars held "shaving" to be "disliked" - not trimming, so the interpretation that "trimming till a fist" is whats meant is completely... unsound.

Ijma` is sometimes used in an instructional sense to refer to "many major scholars within the four schools" and does not negate difference of opinion necessarily, something Shaykh Zakariyya very clearly acknowledges.


I just wanted to point out the slight discrepancy in the original post alluding that such was the position of Shaykh al-Hadith

I believe all the posts were quite clear that Shaykh Zakariyya sides with the verdicts of wujub. The only point that was being alluded to was his mention of trimming/shaving being merely disliked according to Imam Nawawi and Rafi`i - i.e. a difference of opinion.

Wasalam

[tazkiyyah]

The hanafis are expert in their madhab and the shafis are expert of the shafi madhab.

I asked a shafi aalim i trust and he told me the muta'amid in their school
is that trimming is makrooh, but he himself has a fistlength and doesnt voice
this opinion generally for fear of a)people calling him a modernist
and b) people shaving their beards

[ridhwan]

:salam:


The last part of your sentence is quite problematic in the light of the fact that it is not found anywhere in the section ..

I think there is some misunderstanding of my statement - for that I apologise. By the word 'their' I was referring to Shaykh al-Hadith :rahim: only and his booklet ( as in urdu 'unn kay' respectable address form ) and not the two Shaykhs Imam Nawawi and Rafi`i :rahim:


I believe all the posts were quite clear that Shaykh Zakariyya sides with the verdicts of wujub. The only point that was being alluded to was his mention of trimming/shaving being merely disliked according to Imam Nawawi and Rafi`i - i.e. a difference of opinion.

Yes I understand. However the full statement wasn't given, where the objection was raised, so it is incorrect to present only a partial translation in the original post. In addition simply mentioning the statement does not entail that Shaykh Zakariyya :rahim: agrees with it (the first part) rather gleaning from their booklet it appears that they side with the objection. That's all I had a qualm with. Hope that's cleared up now.

wAllahu Aalam

[salman]

salamu `alaykum

Ofcourse it does not mean Shaykh Zakariyya agrees with the two Imams. The very scan itself shows this. However, he neither cites the opinion as invalid or unacceptable. The only thing Sidi Faqir was pointing to was that there is still some acknowledgement of difference, even if the one acknowledging does not agree with it.

We all know the position of Shaykh Zakariyya and the Akabir on the issue. Theres no question in that.

Wasalam
Salman

Ps. Jazakallah for the clarification.

[faqir]

:salam:

Brother ridhwan, please do not put shove words down my mouth.

If you read the initial post I make it quite clear what Shaikh Zakariyya's own position is. Personally, I don't care what the Deobandis say the Shafi'i or Maliki position is. One can take the position of the Shafi'is and Malikis from living scholars of their own respective schools. My original post was only to highlight that unlike some other contemporary Deobandi scholars [see links above from ask-imam, etc.] who don't even seem to acknowledge the mut'amad in the other schools at least Sh. Zakariyya cites some opinions contrary to his own - even if he disagrees with it. I hope that is clear now.

:jazak: sidi Salman for your clarifying the post.

[Ansari]

:salam:

Brother ridhwan, please do not put shove words down my mouth.

If you read the initial post I make it quite clear what Shaikh Zakariyya's own position is. Personally, I don't care what the Deobandis say the Shafi'i or Maliki position is. One can take the position of the Shafi'is and Malikis from living scholars of their own respective schools. My original post was only to highlight that unlike some other contemporary Deobandi scholars [see links above from ask-imam, etc.] who don't even seem to acknowledge the mut'amad in the other schools at least Sh. Zakariyya cites some opinions contrary to his own - even if he disagrees with it. I hope that is clear now.

:jazak: sidi Salman for your clarifying the post.

Actually, your post was quite unclear saying he "acknowledges the difference of opinion" implying somehow its okay to follow that opinion while he refutes it! In the whole book Mawlana Zakariyya is refuting the opinion of the beard being lesser than a fist-length. He cites the opinion of these shuyukh in order to refute it. Even Mufti Desai mentions the opinions of these shuyukh. Is there any scholar in the world who doesnt acknowledge what the 2 shaykhs have written in their works?

[salman]

Actually, your post was quite unclear saying he "acknowledges the difference of opinion" implying somehow its okay to follow that opinion while he refutes it! In the whole book Mawlana Zakariyya is refuting the opinion of the beard being lesser than a fist-length. He cites the opinion of these shuyukh in order to refute it. Even Mufti Desai mentions the opinions of these shuyukh. Is there any scholar in the world who doesnt acknowledge what the 2 shaykhs have written in their works?

salamu `alaykum

Acknowledging means...?

The Hanafis have a number of works refuting the Shafi`is on what they differed about. Does this entail thats it is not "okay to follow that opinion"? If that was the case the Hanafis would not be giving verdicts based on these schools under certain conditions.

Acknowledgement does not mean one follows the opinion, or believes it is correct. At the same time it does make the issue non-condemnable. No one here has implied in any way, shape, or form that the position of Shaykh Zakariyya is that of Imam Nawawi or Rafi`i. Yes, what they have implied is that Shaykh Zakariyya acknolwedges the difference, even if he does not agree with it.

And, yes, there are scholars who dont acknolwedge any difference whatsoever. Take the claims of consensus or for that matter the interpretation what Imam Nawawi meant was "trimming till a fistful" - which is *not* what is meant -.

Khayr - the verdicts of the other schools are there for all to see. Acknowledging such differences is the way of Sunni Islam, and it does notnecessitate agreeing with it.

Wasalam

[faqir]

Actually, your post was quite unclear saying he "acknowledges the difference of opinion" implying somehow its okay to follow that opinion while he refutes it!

I don't think there is anything unclear in my post. Acknowledgement of an opposing view does not equate with agreement - why you should think it does, remains 'unclear' to me.

As for the opinion you refer to - of course it is okay to follow that opinion - not according to Maulana Zakariyya - but according to the Shafi'is.

[ridhwan]

:salam:


Take the claims of consensus or for that matter the interpretation what Imam Nawawi meant was "trimming till a fistful" - which is *not* what is meant -.

Secondly, the two quotations that we presented from the Shaafi’ee scholars was in substantiation of the claim of Allaamah ibnul Humaam :rahim: that nobody has permitted trimming upto lesser than one fist. This is clearly understood from those quotations. As for the statements of Imaam Nawawi :rahim: and Allaamah Iraqi :rahim:, these refer to the act of trimming what is in excess of a fist as is understood from the context of that statement. (AskImam)

The great Hadith master, Imam al-Nawawi :rahim: states in his renowned commentary of Sahih Muslim: The words: A’fu, Awfu. Arkhu, Arju and Waffiru have all been used; the meaning of all of which is to leave the beard as it is.” (Sharh Sahih Muslim, 3/151) (daruliftaa)

Imam al-Nawawi :rahim: states: “The correct opinion is that it is disliked to trim the beard unrestrictedly (mutlaqan), rather, it should be left uncut however it grows.” (al-Majmu’, 1/290) - (daruliftaa)

Can we at least agree that according to Imam Nawawi :rahim: there is strong karahat to even trim the beard and it should be left alone - regardless of it being more than a fistful or otherwise (i.e. naturally grows less than that) - and this is the correct opinion in their view.

Anyhow the above comments (and may I say implied interpretation) are more in agreement with the opposition rather than the proponents of trimming (to less than a fist). To some the usage of the word 'Makruh' is taken as a green card to trim, which is a little far-fetched and unjust in regards to Imam Nawawi's :rahim: statement.

wAllahu Aalam

[faqir]

:salam:

I don't think there is any dispute that the relied-upon position in the shafi'i school is that "letting the beard grow is a sunnah that is highly recommended" and "shaving the beard or trimming it (to make it shorter than a fistful) is offensive, rather than unlawful" ...... or is there?

By the way, here is a clear exposition of the Shafi'i stance on what constitutes a beard and further details regarding its ruling in the school:

http://www.livingislam.org/maa/mmsb_e.html

[salman]

salamu `alaykum


Can we at least agree that according to Imam Nawawi there is strong karahat to even trim the beard and it should be left alone - regardless of it being more than a fistful or otherwise (i.e. naturally grows less than that) - and this is the correct opinion in their view.

Yes, although makruh is the Shafi`i school means that which is better to leave but not sinful to do. There is really no "strong" or "slight" dislikedness.

The sunnah is what you mentioned above i.e. it should be left alone. This though is neither wajib nor fardh.

Shaykh Muhammad `Afifis answer to this is probably one of the best and most detailed on the issue. Note: The definition of the beard provided by him from the sources.

Wasalam
Salman

قال القاضي عياض : يكره حلق اللحية وقصها وتحريفها . وأما الأخذ من طولها وعرضها فحسنا

و قال الرملي في الفتاوي :

( باب العقيقة ) ( سئل ) هل يحرم حلق الذقن ونتفها أو لا ؟ ( فأجاب ) بأن حلق لحية الرجل ونتفها مكروه لا حرام ، وقول الحليمي في منهاجه لا يحل لأحد أن يحلق لحيته ولا حاجبيه ضعيف .

في إعانة الطالبين

المعتمد عند الغزالي وشيخ الإسلام _ أي القاضي زكريا الأنصاري كما هو اصطلاح المتأخرين _ وابن حجر في التحفة والرملي والخطيب _ أي الشربيني _ وغيرهم الكراهة

[VeiledOne]

This already has been discussed.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154930&postcount=57


Further, shaving in the Shafi`i school is makruh (meaning not sinful), and not impermissible (haram) according to the mu`atamad. However, a key point to note is that "it becomes Haram when one does this, intending to go against the Prophetic Example or thinking that the sunna of the non-Muslims is superior to ours)."

[SeekerOfGuidance]

:salam:

Sorry, you are most likely correct. I take back my words.

:jazak: