Contradicting prayer times?

[Al-Faruqi]

:salam:

I'm confused on islamicfinder it says for my town salat ul-isha is at ca. 11.30 pm and the diyanet calendar in my masjid says 11.05 pm - why this difference?

I'm confused how come this difference, can anybody explain my this :insh:?

:ws:

[umar_italy]

:salam:

I'm confused on islamicfinder it says for my town salat ul-isha is at ca. 11.30 pm and the diyanet calendar in my masjid says 11.05 pm - why this difference?

I'm confused how come this difference, can anybody explain my this :insh:?

:ws:

:salam:

Well, so you're "lucky": in my masjid the difference between the calendar of the mosque (10:08) and the islamicfinder one (settled on Darul Uloom Karachi) (11:00) is of almost one hour!!

This very evening I talked with the brother charged with the table time: we'll meet tomorrow :insh: to clarify this subject.

However I think the reason beyond this is the plurality of methods of calculation: the one you choose, the Salat-time you have, and this especially for Fajr and Ishaa'..
But my point is that we shouldn't choose the more comfortable method (for other brothers seem to care about people who work and couldn't manage to come to the mosque too late.......), but the one more proper to our latitude (I think the method of calculation should consider this too).

:ws:

[abdullatif]

as sallamu alaikum

Salatul isha comes in well before it says on the prayer schedules used in most masjid I've been to At least in the shafi'i madhhab.

[Ma'ruf]

Can i please sincerely advise you NOT to use islamicfinder. It will very likely give you incorrect times. Also, they claim to use ISNA's official method, which does not exist.

Go to www.moonsighting.com and email the brothers there to send you correct prayer times for your town (tell them your madhab too). They are very prompt. Alternatively, use your local mosque's times, which will almost certainly be almost exactly the same as what you will get from moonsighting.com. Islamicfinder gives wildly innaccurate times for many localities, as I found out by experience (like the sky being pitch-black before supposed maghreb time, for example).

[Yahya]

I strongly encourage everyone to use the sun when determining the prayer times. A simple look out of the window will tell you if the time is in or not.

[alfatiha]

I strongly encourage everyone to use the sun when determining the prayer times. A simple look out of the window will tell you if the time is in or not.

:salam: can you elaborate for us. :jazak: I live near the mountain, so it's hard to see the horizon. how do we determine if it is already maghrib?

[Al-Faruqi]

:bismi:

:salam:

I agree, giving a short look outside just for verification is more secure.
But you should have a good knowledge about your madhhab's ruling concerning the position of the sun and the prayer times if you want to rely on your personal sighting.

@ Brother alfatiha
According to the Shafi'i fiqh book 'Reliance of the Traveller', page 110:


(3) The time for the sunset prayer (maghrib) begins when the sun has completely set.

Maybe this helps you.

:ws:

[alfatiha]

:ws: yes. but the sun goes behind the mountain, so I don't know when it is completely set or not.

[daywalk3r]

AsalaamWW

Can someone also explain to me the difference here in the UK for Esha and fajr start times in the summer months.

In my area which has 2 large masjids in mid June Fajr time at one is 01:17 and the other 5 mins away is at 02:45 - so in some years time when ramdhan comes along you'll have a brother in the same house going to one masjid eating still 1.5 hours after his other brother in room next door going to the other masjid would be fast asleep having eaten and prayed fajr 1.5 hours ago ???

I know theres a difference between the methods of calculation but surely one of these ways/times is more closer to the truth then the other - both cant be equally right can they???

[Yahya]

:salam: can you elaborate for us. :jazak: I live near the mountain, so it's hard to see the horizon. how do we determine if it is already maghrib?

Sure, but this is going to sound more complicated than it really is. This stuff takes less than a second once you get used to it, and it only takes 2 or 3 days to get used to.


Shafi'i rules:

Fajr = its time begins at "True Dawn", which is a horizontal line of white light on the horizon which then expands upwards. If there are moutains in the way, then you can look at the easternmost portion of the visible sky, if it is brighter than than the westernmost portion of visible sky, fajr is in (although it may have been in for some time already). But you will be certain that your Salat is within the proper time.

THuhr = its time begins as soon as the sun begins its descent from its zenith. The sun is at its zenith when the shadows are at their shortest, so as soon as a shadow lengthens, you know that Thuhr time is in. Also, on a related note, if you live North of the equator, then the sun is EXACTLY due South when it's at its zenith (and EXACTLY due North if you live south of the equator). So, given that the sun always rises in the east, and sets in the west, and passes to the south along the way, you actually only need to know which direction is due south. If the sun has passed the point of 'due south', then thuhr is in.

Asr = Asr is the hardest to tell. Its time begins when the shadow of a thing has lengthened by its height. So, imagine a vertical stick that's 3 feet high. If its shortest shadow was 1 foot (when the sun was at its zenith), then once its shadow reaches 4 feet (ie. the 1 foot shadow lengthened by the height of the object), Asr is in. If you were not paying attention to the shadows at the moment that the sun was at its zenith, fear not. Whenever you look and find that Thuhr is in, note the length of any shadow. Whenever that shadow has lengthened by the height of the object, Asr is in. So, if you observed Thuhr sometime during the middle of thuhr time, then you will not know that exact moment that Asr arrives, but you will still be able to determine for sure when you can pray Asr.

Maghrib = its time begins when the sun has set below the horizon. If you cannot see the horizon, then there are two other methods: 1- sunrays. If you look at the peaks of the mountains that obscure the western horizon, or at the tops of the buildings that obscure it, then once you no longer see sunrays at the peaks (or roofs), you know that the sun is set. 2- darkness. If you see darkness approaching from the east, then you know that the sun is set.

Ishaa = it's time begins with the disappearance of the red twillight from the sky. It can also be known by the presence of many "small" stars (ie. not the bright ones that come out during maghrib time). But the small stars don't come out in multitudes until well into Isha time. But nonetheless, if you see a LOT of stars, you know that Ishaa is in, and you may pray.



So, for those of you who notice a discrepancy in the calculated times, you can just look outside during interval between them, and see which one is right. Or, to be safe, you can just always follow the later of the two times (and it may be a good idea to add 10 minutes to the later time as well).

[Yahya]

AsalaamWW

Can someone also explain to me the difference here in the UK for Esha and fajr start times in the summer months.

In my area which has 2 large masjids in mid June Fajr time at one is 01:17 and the other 5 mins away is at 02:45 - so in some years time when ramdhan comes along you'll have a brother in the same house going to one masjid eating still 1.5 hours after his other brother in room next door going to the other masjid would be fast asleep having eaten and prayed fajr 1.5 hours ago ???

I know theres a difference between the methods of calculation but surely one of these ways/times is more closer to the truth then the other - both cant be equally right can they???

Probably the one that prays at 2:45 is purposefully praying later during fajr time so that the jama'ah won't be so early. I doubt that they are actually claiming that you can eat until 2:45.

[mosa707]

Salaam br yahya,

In my country, the mosques follow a fixed time and they say the adhaan at that time and then fardh is prayed in congregation. Is it alright to just follow?

Jazakallah khair for the answers

wassalam

[Yahya]

Salaam br yahya,

In my country, the mosques follow a fixed time and they say the adhaan at that time and then fardh is prayed in congregation. Is it alright to just follow?

Jazakallah khair for the answers

wassalam

wa'alaykumussalaam,

I wouldn't be comfortable just following in this case. If I understand you properly, you are saying that NO ONE in your country is using the sun. Even the mu'ezzins are ignoring the sun. If that is the case, then no one knows with certainty if the prayer time has arrived.

It is a condition for the validity of Salat that you KNOW with CERTAINTY that the prayer time has arrived. It is enough if a scholar has told you that the prayer time is in. This is why, in the past, the mu'ezzins were always well trained in the areas of adhan/iqaamah and also in identifying the prayer times. But, in your case, not even the mu'ezzins have followed the Shariah method.

If I were you, I would look outside before the jama'ah, to verify that the time has arrived (again, Asr is the only one that won't be obvious). Usually, the calculations are close enough to the actual start time that if they delay for 5 or 10 min (to allow people to pray sunnah prayers) then the Fard prayer will be within its time.

And if you are unable to verify the prayer time, I recommend praying with the jama'ah and re-praying afterwards if you doubt whether the prayer time was truly in.

[daywalk3r]

Probably the one that prays at 2:45 is purposefully praying later during fajr time so that the jama'ah won't be so early. I doubt that they are actually claiming that you can eat until 2:45.

nope - they have that time as thats the one they have concluded is right years back. Further again yes they would use that time as the latest time they can eat.

[alfatiha]

:salam:

:jazak: for the explanation brother Yahya. sounds very complicated but :insh: I will try to implement the method.
3 questions:
1. Can you also include when it is Syuruq?
2. So for Thuhr, during winter time, in Northern hemisphere, the sun moves from east, south, then west. Am I correct? During summer, the sun moves from east, north, west?
3. For Asr, the time is the length of the shadow when (length of the object + the shortest length of the shadow during the zenith), right?

Thanks again.

[Yahya]

nope - they have that time as thats the one they have concluded is right years back. Further again yes they would use that time as the latest time they can eat.
Bizarre.

I would go outside sometime close to 2:45 and look at the eastern horizon. If true fajr has arrived prior to 2:45, then ignore their method. If true fajr has not yet arrived, then I would ask why the first group prays so early.

In any case, I'm sure that this discrepancy is the result of inputting latitude and longitude into a formula. The more correct, and ultimately easier, method is just to look outside.


:salam:

:jazak: for the explanation brother Yahya. sounds very complicated but :insh: I will try to implement the method.
3 questions:
1. Can you also include when it is Syuruq?
wa'alaykumussalaam

Shuruq works like maghrib, but in the eastern sky. So if the land is flat, then you should be able to see when the first little piece of the actual disc of the sun is visible (this is shuruq). If your view is obscured by mountains or buildings, then you can look at the summit/roof of the tallest mountain/building, and if you can see sunrays, then shuruq has arrived.


2. So for Thuhr, during winter time, in Northern hemisphere, the sun moves from east, south, then west. Am I correct? During summer, the sun moves from east, north, west?NO. The sun always moves east, south, west, all throughout the year. However, the path changes. So, during the winter the sun will be lower in the sky (but still due south) at its zenith. In the summer, the sun will be almost directly overhead at its zenith, but it will still be due south.



3. For Asr, the time is the length of the shadow when (length of the object + the shortest length of the shadow during the zenith), right?Correct. You start with its shortest length (which is at the sun's zenith), then add the height of the object. Once the shadow's length equals the sum, Asr has arrived.

But note, that Abu Hanifah, rahimahullah, has a different method for calculating Asr. So Hanafis should ignore the above.

[abdulwahhab]

:salam:

This might answer the reason for the disparity:
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=c955f46d5b001f9c216672129c6eb313

[mosa707]

wa'alaykumussalaam,

I wouldn't be comfortable just following in this case. If I understand you properly, you are saying that NO ONE in your country is using the sun. Even the mu'ezzins are ignoring the sun. If that is the case, then no one knows with certainty if the prayer time has arrived.

It is a condition for the validity of Salat that you KNOW with CERTAINTY that the prayer time has arrived. It is enough if a scholar has told you that the prayer time is in. This is why, in the past, the mu'ezzins were always well trained in the areas of adhan/iqaamah and also in identifying the prayer times. But, in your case, not even the mu'ezzins have followed the Shariah method.

If I were you, I would look outside before the jama'ah, to verify that the time has arrived (again, Asr is the only one that won't be obvious). Usually, the calculations are close enough to the actual start time that if they delay for 5 or 10 min (to allow people to pray sunnah prayers) then the Fard prayer will be within its time.

And if you are unable to verify the prayer time, I recommend praying with the jama'ah and re-praying afterwards if you doubt whether the prayer time was truly in.
Assalamu alaikum brother,

You are correct. There are 70 mosques in my country and i have been to more than half and none of the mu'ezzins look at the sku and shadow for the prayer time. I did check for zuhr and asr today and it was correct alhamdulillah. Also, I want to know if it is cloudy for the day, is it alright to just follow the jamaah and pray?

Jazakallah khair

[mosa707]

NO. The sun always moves east, south, west, all throughout the year. However, the path changes. So, during the winter the sun will be lower in the sky (but still due south) at its zenith. In the summer, the sun will be almost directly overhead at its zenith, but it will still be due south.

.
Salam brother,

Is this only for northern hemisphere? How about for asia?

[Yahya]

Assalamu alaikum brother,

You are correct. There are 70 mosques in my country and i have been to more than half and none of the mu'ezzins look at the sku and shadow for the prayer time. I did check for zuhr and asr today and it was correct alhamdulillah. Also, I want to know if it is cloudy for the day, is it alright to just follow the jamaah and pray?

Jazakallah khair

If the sky is obscured, you can go by the previous day's observation, since prayer times are known to not change much from day to day. So if you observed that THuhr was "in" at 1:12 yesterday, and the sky is cloudy today, you may assume that THuhr is in at 1:12 today (although I would add a minute or two to be safe).

[Yahya]

Salam brother,

Is this only for northern hemisphere? How about for asia?

wa'alaykumussalaam,

Asia is in the Northern Hemisphere except for some parts of Indonesia and Malaysia, and maybe the southernmost islands of the Maldives. So you will observe the pattern that the sun rises in the east, passes to the south, then sets in the west.


For those in the Southern Hemisphere (Argentina, Australia, South Africa, etc.), you will observe that the sun always rises in the east, passes to the North, then sets in the West.

An easy way to remember is that the sun always moves in the direction of the equator when passing from east to west.

[alifareeda]

as wr rb I am new to this site. I want to say asalamalikum wr rb to every one.
I have a question which I am unable to answer my kids. what is shafai and hanafi time of prayer and why it is so. why don't we have just one prayer time for all muslims. especially youth and kids and very confused about this issue.please brother in islam help me in this issue. jzk

[mosa707]

:jazak: brother yahya

During maghrib, the sky here is blue and white. Is this the red twilight you are referring to?

[Yahya]

:jazak: brother yahya

During maghrib, the sky here is blue and white. Is this the red twilight you are referring to?

How far north are you? In the very northern regions of the world (northern Canada, Scandanavia, Siberia, etc.), during the summer time, there is often only a short time between sunset and sunrise, and often the red never disappears from the sky. In this case, there are special rules to be applied.

But if you are not in the far north, you should see plenty of red in the sky shortly after the sun sets. The red should grow more and more faint until eventually the remaining light is (a) very faint and (b) white. At that point, it is Ishaa time. The red is very faint, though, and if you have a lot of street lights in your town, it will make it very hard to tell when Maghrib ends and Ishaa begins. But, assuming you are NOT in the far North, Maghrib should last between 60 and 120 minutes. So even if you cannot view the colors of the sky well because of light pollution (which usually makes the sky appear brighter and more white), you can still observe sunset and know that Maghrib will last for about 60 min. Since it will be hard to see when Ishaa arrives, you can wait until the small stars come out in multitudes.

[mosa707]

How far north are you? In the very northern regions of the world (northern Canada, Scandanavia, Siberia, etc.), during the summer time, there is often only a short time between sunset and sunrise, and often the red never disappears from the sky. In this case, there are special rules to be applied.

But if you are not in the far north, you should see plenty of red in the sky shortly after the sun sets. The red should grow more and more faint until eventually the remaining light is (a) very faint and (b) white. At that point, it is Ishaa time. The red is very faint, though, and if you have a lot of street lights in your town, it will make it very hard to tell when Maghrib ends and Ishaa begins. But, assuming you are NOT in the far North, Maghrib should last between 60 and 120 minutes. So even if you cannot view the colors of the sky well because of light pollution (which usually makes the sky appear brighter and more white), you can still observe sunset and know that Maghrib will last for about 60 min. Since it will be hard to see when Ishaa arrives, you can wait until the small stars come out in multitudes.Assalamu alaykum
I live in singapore which is near equator. Yes, there are lots and lots of streetlights
Jazakallah Khair

[maryam88]

muslims in the UK,

http://www.pray-in-time.org/
http://www.salahtimes.com/Web/Pages/HomePage.aspx

^ which of those two web sites are your prayer times closer to????