Arabic Between Your hands

[AboHaroon]

Assalamu Alaikum

Im studying book one of "al-arrabia Baina Yadiak" and me and my teacher are stumped on the usage of a particular word. It is in unit 5. The word is "kailan" used for weight. My teacher feels it is a typo but how could a typo be written more than once and the audio pronounces it "kailan". My teacher thinks it is "kilo" because in the book it asks;
"ma wazanuka" and he answers "sittun kailan"

Can some one who is familiar with this book please help me out.If you have the book this expression is mentioned on page 95. Please give me the meaning of this word because the teacher and the sheikh said they never heard this expression in their life.
Jazak Allahu Khairan.

[seeker4ever]

Wa-alaikum Assalam,

As per Hans-Wehr dictionary, the verb كيل means "to measure (with a measure of capacity or cubic content) .

So it sounds proper usage if a noun with the same root is used to specify a measure.

Check this too:
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000259.pdf

Hope this is the answer you were looking for.

Wassalam

p.s. I have not read the book so might be mistaken about the context.

[AboHaroon]

well from what i gathered it is "kilo" but since it is "tameez" because sittun kailan" the waw gets dropped and takes fatha. allahu alam but i want someone to clarify for me.

[Saeed M]

well from what i gathered it is "kilo" but since it is "tameez" because sittun kailan" the waw gets dropped and takes fatha. allahu alam but i want someone to clarify for me.

I think the brother has answered your question above. Kail means "measure".

[AboHaroon]

I think the brother has answered your question above. Kail means "measure".

I understand tha "kail" means measure but if someone asks you "ma waznuka"? that means what is your weight?

The brother in the book says "sittun kailin" really sittun kilo but you cant say kilo because of sittun so you say kailin because its mansoub.

[shaks]

I understand tha "kail" means measure but if someone asks you "ma waznuka"? that means what is your weight?

The brother in the book says "sittun kailin" really sittun kilo but you cant say kilo because of sittun so you say kailin because its mansoub.

Assalaamualaikum brother first of all the word كيل as mentioned before is measure but here it means capacity ie. volume not weight the words kail and wazn are always used in the books of fiqh but they are 2 separate things. mawzuunaat are things which are sold by weighing and makeelaat are things sold by measuring for example in the time of our nabi sallallahu alihi wasallam a صاع is a measurement used for measuring food items etc. but by volume not weight.

[B]so it is clear here that kail meaning measurement is not appropriate in this context.
situn- if it is meant hereستون meaning 60 then the tamyeez ie. the thing which comes after the number is mufrad (singular) and mansoob as you rightly mentioned> HOWEVER YOUR STATEMENT THAT THE LETTER و IS DROPPED DUE TO BEING MANSOOB IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER COME ACROSS DURING MY TIME OF LEARNING AND TEACHING ARABIC. Would you care to provide any quote from any kitab to clarify. The huroof illah is sometimes dropped no doubt but not in this case from what i recall although im happy to be proved wrong and learn something new that i havent come across.
the word kilo according to my ijtihad is an english word that has been arabised ie. muarrab. you can use the word كيلو or كيلوغرام both are used. The plural is done by adding alif and taa but because the tamyeez is mufrad then you would make it mansoob with fatha and alif like this كيلواًor كيلوغراماً both are used wallahu a'lam.

[AboHaroon]

Assalaamualaikum brother first of all the word كيل as mentioned before is measure but here it means capacity ie. volume not weight the words kail and wazn are always used in the books of fiqh but they are 2 separate things. mawzuunaat are things which are sold by weighing and makeelaat are things sold by measuring for example in the time of our nabi sallallahu alihi wasallam a صاع is a measurement used for measuring food items etc. but by volume not weight.

[B]so it is clear here that kail meaning measurement is not appropriate in this context.
situn- if it is meant hereستون meaning 60 then the tamyeez ie. the thing which comes after the number is mufrad (singular) and mansoob as you rightly mentioned> HOWEVER YOUR STATEMENT THAT THE LETTER و IS DROPPED DUE TO BEING MANSOOB IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER COME ACROSS DURING MY TIME OF LEARNING AND TEACHING ARABIC. Would you care to provide any quote from any kitab to clarify. The huroof illah is sometimes dropped no doubt but not in this case from what i recall although im happy to be proved wrong and learn something new that i havent come across.
the word kilo according to my ijtihad is an english word that has been arabised ie. muarrab. you can use the word كيلو or كيلوغرام both are used. The plural is done by adding alif and taa but because the tamyeez is mufrad then you would make it mansoob with fatha and alif like this كيلواًor كيلوغراماً both are used wallahu a'lam.

ok brother here is the link to the book "al arrabiya bayna yadayk" you can download it
http://www.archive.org/details/arabicbyh-pdf
it is the second pdf file. (167 MB)
After that go to alwahdata khamisa (unit 5) "Eating and Drinking.
Please read the first dialogue it is towards the end.
You say you never seen dropping the waw but remember waw is a weak letter.

Jazak Allah

[shaks]

ok brother here is the link to the book "al arrabiya bayna yadayk" you can download it
http://www.archive.org/details/arabicbyh-pdf
it is the second pdf file. (167 MB)
After that go to alwahdata khamisa (unit 5) "Eating and Drinking.
Please read the first dialogue it is towards the end.
You say you never seen dropping the waw but remember waw is a weak letter.

Jazak Allah

Assalaamualaykum yes my good friend indeed the letter wow is a week letter which they call harf illah in arabic. Huroof illah ie. wow alif and yaa are dropped mostly from الفعل الضارع (present and future tense verbs) eg. the verb يَدْعُوْ becomes لم يَدْعُ due to the harf lam which is harfuljaazim. Even from verbs the wow is not dropped when its mansoob in fact the irab will be mansoob bil fatha eg لن يَدْعُوَ - here its mansoob due to lan which is harfunnasab, note that the wow is not dropped at all when it is mansoob. when its majzoom like in the first example yes its dropped. NOW WHAT I JUST MENTIONED IS WHEN HARF ILLAH IS DROPPED FROM VERBS BUT FROM NOUNS THAT ARE MANSOOB? Examples of huroof illah being dropped: take the case of ismul faail eg, the words القاضي الهادي المتقي in these cases and other seeghas apart from ismul faail the YAA is dropped when alif and laam is removed when it becomes majroor and also marfoo' eg قاضِ هادِ متقِ however when it becomes mansoob even without alif and lam the yaa at the end is still retained eg قاضياً هادياً متقياً . As for wow being dropped have never come across it ( in nouns), and when its mansoob? unheard of!
That is the evidence im requesting. Not examples of sentences from books that teach conversation as i have found errors in many such books because they dont focus so much on nahwu but rather conversation but what im asking is have you ever read anywhere in an actual grammar kitab that states wow is dropped from an ism that is mansoob? Remember the word kilo is an ism ie. noun not a verb. As for the link you gave me im trying to down load it now but am having problems with computer line. Hope this information has helped you if you need more clarification dont hesitate. salaams.

[AboHaroon]

well im not an arabic teacher and i seriously doubt that the brothers in this book will make the same error 5 time in this book and on the audio. The brother that tried to explain this to me said the wow was taghayrul harakat and kilan was tameez. Im just telling you what he said. but here is another example:

فعندما ضربت أمواج التسونامي قبل مائة و عشرين سنة جزيرة كاركاتوا اليابانية وخلفت آلاف القتلى متعفنين ، فإنها هاجرت مرتدة حتى وصلت الساحل الأوسترالي على بعد أربعة آلاف كيل متر

في عمق المحيط الهادي ، لو انطلقت فجأة داخل فقاعة هوائية إلى الأعلى بسرعة 100 كيل متر في الساعة ، فإنك ستحتاج إلى عشر دقائق كي يلامس رأسك سطح الماء! هذا فقط في المتوسط ، و إلا فإن أعلى نقطة بحرية في عمق المحيط سجلت على مسافة 26 كيل متر

و هذا الذي حصل قبل أسبوعين في الكارثة الآسيوية! حيث أن زلزالا قوته 8.9 على مقياس ريختر حدث في قاع المحيط على عمق 13 كيل متر في نقطة تلاقي الصفيحة البورمية مع الصفيحة الهندية إلى الشمال الغربي من جزيرة سومطرة الأندونيسية ، ونتيجة لذلك ارتفعت القشرة التحت بحرية عشرة أمتار فقط دفعت أمواجاً في قلب المحيط يبلغ ارتفاع الواحدة منها 4 كيلات مترية إلى السطح بسرعة 800 كيل متر في الساعة

عسفان: بلدة عامرة تقع شمال مكة على ثمانين كيلاً، على المحجَّة إلى المدينة، على التقاء وادي فَيْدة بوادي الصُّغُو، فيها آبار عذبة قديمة

الكديد: يعرف اليوم بالحَمْض لكثرة نبات العَصْلاء فيه، وهو مكان من أسفل غُران قبل مصبه في وادي أمج، كثير الرمال، والطريق بين الدف وعسفان يطأ طرف الكديد الغربي على 92 كيلاً من مكة، و17 كيلاً من عسفا

[AboHaroon]

Now why is the wow dropped in the above article? And brother im not trying to create a debate im trying to learn so im the talib not the mudarris thats why im posting here.

[shaks]

[QUOTE=AboHaroon;300935]well im not an arabic teacher and i seriously doubt that the brothers in this book will make the same error 5 time in this book and on the audio. The brother that tried to explain this to me said the wow was taghayrul harakat and kilan was tameez. Im just telling you what he said. but here is another example:


Assalaamualaykum bro look im sorry if i sounded condasending, its probably a bad habit we had of debating during the student days which has continued till now, make dua that i rectify myself: just a point to keep in mind you will find many mistakes in books even by arabs as alot of them are not strong in nahwu i have even met arab imams that make blatant grammar mistakes in their talks. I prefer reading the old books on nahwu, authentic correct language of quran is what u'll find there.
Anyway the word here is kilometer which in three dictionaries i found written as كيلومتر you add an alif on the end if its mansoob as it should be in the last 2 cases. As for dropping of the wow here and replacing it with tanween. I have no knowledge of it in fact i dont know why he dropped it in the other cases even when it wasnt mansoob and in the last 2 cases not only he dropped the wow but he dropped the whole end word "metr" dont know maybe there is some justification for it but ill look in my other books which are not with me here. If i do find out more about it ill let you know. Salaams.

[AboHaroon]

walaikum salam
dont worry akhee wallahi you havent offend me in anyway and maybe i have a bad habit of misinturpreting things, wallah akhee the authors of the book are: Doctor Abdur Rahman bin Ibraheem Al-Fawazan, Dr Mukhtar Al-Tahir Hussain, and Imam Muhammad Abdul Khaliq Muhamad Fadl. These brothers have been teaching arrabiya at King Saud University for decades. Im not the most intelligent person but i think they must have a knowledge of nahw to some extent to teach in arabi at KSU in Saudi. These guys are supposed to be top notch akhee. Can all 3 make the same mistake 5 times, sure but i hightly doubt it especially when they even took the time to have tashkeel on it. Dont feel bad you and about 3 different brothers said they never heard this before. Coincidentally the other 2 brothers were from Egypt and one was a professor of arabi. But when i spoke with a brother from Saudi, i didnt even mention the book i gave him the example he started laughing and said kail=kilo. So i dunno if this is a Saudi Arab thing or what. It just bothers me because i dont have a straight up answer thats why i hope i could find someone who teaches this series as it is a popular series and get their response.
wallahu Alam
Jazak Allahu khairan.

[shaks]

walaikum salam
dont worry akhee wallahi you havent offend me in anyway and maybe i have a bad habit of misinturpreting things, wallah akhee the authors of the book are: Doctor Abdur Rahman bin Ibraheem Al-Fawazan, Dr Mukhtar Al-Tahir Hussain, and Imam Muhammad Abdul Khaliq Muhamad Fadl. These brothers have been teaching arrabiya at King Saud University for decades. Im not the most intelligent person but i think they must have a knowledge of nahw to some extent to teach in arabi at KSU in Saudi. These guys are supposed to be top notch akhee. Can all 3 make the same mistake 5 times, sure but i hightly doubt it especially when they even took the time to have tashkeel on it. Dont feel bad you and about 3 different brothers said they never heard this before. Coincidentally the other 2 brothers were from Egypt and one was a professor of arabi. But when i spoke with a brother from Saudi, i didnt even mention the book i gave him the example he started laughing and said kail=kilo. So i dunno if this is a Saudi Arab thing or what. It just bothers me because i dont have a straight up answer thats why i hope i could find someone who teaches this series as it is a popular series and get their response.
wallahu Alam
Jazak Allahu khairan.

Yeah it could be a saudi dialect or modernised arabic from the saudi dialect , im into the old traditional language and its not in those kitaabs that i have read. by the way could u emaail me that stuff i cant download it. I might use it in my language center. I get alot of people that want to learn modern arabic.

[Husain]

The word كيلو kilo - regardless of whether it refers to kilograms or kilometres, when used in the plural is used as كيلا .

Google the word وزن or مسافة with كيلا to see dozens of examples

[AboHaroon]

really? wow !! insha allah ill try. Wow i didnt know this so kailan means kilos??

[shaks]

really? wow !! insha allah ill try. Wow i didnt know this so kailan means kilos??
Assalaamualaykum yes well not exactly i just googled it. Its saudi arabic and the word كيلا
means 1 kilo when it is mansoob you add alif otherwise its just كيل without the alif when its majroor or marfoo'. The plural for كيل is أكيال pronounced akyaal here are some examples of singular and plural forms of the
word. تقع جنوب بلجرشي على مسافة خمسة عشر كيلا .

كيلا واحدا

على مسافة عشرة أكيال

تقع جنوب العقارية بثمانية اكيال

From the numbers 3 to 10 the tamyeez is always jama'ah ie. plural and majroor . From 11 to 99 it becomes mufrad ie. singular and mansoob.

[AboHaroon]

Assalaamualaykum yes well not exactly i just googled it. Its saudi arabic and the word كيلا
means 1 kilo when it is mansoob you add alif otherwise its just كيل without the alif when its majroor or marfoo'. The plural for كيل is أكيال pronounced akyaal here are some examples of singular and plural forms of the
word. تقع جنوب بلجرشي على مسافة خمسة عشر كيلا .

كيلا واحدا

على مسافة عشرة أكيال

تقع جنوب العقارية بثمانية اكيال

From the numbers 3 to 10 the tamyeez is always jama'ah ie. plural and majroor . From 11 to 99 it becomes mufrad ie. singular and mansoob.


Ah i see so this is a Saudi Arabic thing... but again kail and akyaal also means measure too? Also so i guess we can say "sittun kailan"? And "miatu kailin"? Are these examples correct??
so "kail" is referring to kilo correct??

sorry but lastly is it pronounced "kail" or "keel"?

[AboHaroon]

So would this be considered as colloquial?

[muhammadnur]

:salaam:

Is the audio available for this series online?

[AboHaroon]

:salaam:

Is the audio available for this series online?

walaikum salam,
sure,here is the link:

Book 1: http://www.archive.org/details/arabicbyh-mp3-1

Book 2: http://www.archive.org/details/arabicbyh-mp3-2

Nook 3: http://www.archive.org/details/arabicbyh-mp3-3

Enjoy!
Ma Salama.