Friday Prayer Led by Dr. Amina Wadud @ NYC

[GreenPapaya]

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/events/archives/2005/03/friday_prayer_l.php
Muslim WakeUp!
is proud to sponsor
The First Muslim Woman on Record to Lead Mixed-Gender Prayer
Who: Dr. Amina Wadud will lead Jumah/Muslim Friday Prayer

When: Friday, March 18, 2005, 1-3pm

Where:
Sundaram Tagore Gallery
137 Greene Street
New York, New York 10012


Event Description:

On Friday, March 18, 2005, Dr. Amina Wadud, professor of Islamic studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, will be the first woman to lead a public, mixed-gender Friday prayer. She will also deliver the Friday sermon. Dr. Wadud, the author of the groundbreaking book Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective, is an esteemed scholar of Islam who affirms the right of Muslim women to be prayer leaders. It is a generally held view in the Muslim world and in the American Muslim community that women cannot lead mixed-gender prayer. This custom is pervasive and goes unchallenged. Research from the Qur'an and the customs of Prophet Muhammad demonstrate that there is no prohibition precluding women from leading mixed-gender prayer and, further, that Prophet Muhammad approved the practice of women leading mixed-gender prayer. Over the centuries, Muslim women have lost their place as intellectual and spiritual leaders.

On March 18, 2005 Muslim women will reclaim their right to be spiritual equals and leaders. Women will move from the space tradition has relegated them in the back of the mosque and pray in the front rows.

Our effort will be part of a broader campaign to create communities in that rise to the highest principles of Islam's teachings on tolerance, justice, equity, and compassion. In the 7th century, the Prophet Muhammad built a model community in the city of Medina, earning it a place in history as "the City of Illumination" because of its progressive values. In the 21st century, we are committed to creating modern day "Cities of Light" in that value inclusion and women's rights.

About Dr. Amina Wadud

Amina Wadud is an Islamic studies professor in the department of philosophy and religious studies at Virginia Commonwealth University. She is nationally and internationally known for her ground breaking book Qur'an and Women: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective, the first interpretive reading of the Qur'an by a woman. Dr. Wadud seeks to validate the female voice in the Qur'an and bring it out of the shadows. Dr. Wadud will deliver the sermon and lead the prayer.


Event Venue:

The Sundaram Tagore Gallery was established in 2000 and is devoted to examining the confluence of Western and non-Western cultures. They focus on developing exhibitions of intellectual rigor and showcasing artists who are engaged in spiritual, social and aesthetic dialogues with traditions other than their own. Their interest in cross-cultural dialogue extends beyond the visual arts into many other disciplines, including poetry, literature, performance art, film and music. They host non-profit events that stimulate the exchange of ideas and push the envelope of artistic, intellectual and cultural boundaries.


Background:

The Muslim Women's Freedom Tour educates and empowers Muslim women to reclaim their God-given right to lead self-determined lives.

In 2004, we took on the issue of Muslim women gaining access to space and voice in American mosques where they have traditionally been banned or relegated to isolated areas of the mosque. On June 4, 2004, a group of seven Muslim women marched to the mosque in Morgantown, W.V., to reclaim the right of women to use the front door and the main hall of mosques; as in many mosques in the United States, women had been told to take a back door and pray in a secluded balcony. Our historic march was the shot heard around the world. Images and reports from the march swept across the globe, and we have documented a positive shift in the participation of Muslim women in mosques and communities globally as a result of the march and the dialogue it sparked.

This year we are affirming the right of women to be spiritual leaders, including imams, or prayer leaders. In a historic Friday prayer on March 18, 2005, in New York City, women will go from the back of the mosque to the front of the mosque.


Jumah Agenda

1:00 pm
-- 1st Call to Prayer, Welcome, Zikr, Worship
-- 2nd Call to Prayer
-- Jumah Sermon (Dr. Wadud)
-- Jumah Prayer (Dr. Wadud)
-- Solitary Prayer/Meditation
-- Fellowship with reception

[auron]

Are we condoning this? Or condemning it?
if i condemn this ill get called a sexist,narrow minded,woman hater, ;)

[ilm_seeker]

As sallamu alaikum

Oh another sign just unfolded! No surprise there folks! Honestly, I'm all for womens rights given by Islam but this is just too silly. I wonder if this woman has any proper qualifications to do Qur'anic tafsir. We have an acute lack of female Alimahs but this "progressive" non-sense isn't the answer. I'd really like to see her "evidence".

Wa alaikum as sallam

[Salah ud Deen]

I condmemn it and don't care what women think of me. Call me what you want but men are suppose to be the leaders. Men and women have their roles to play. May Allah(swt) handle this Muslims wake up group in the proper manner in this life and the next.

[Muawiyah]

is this the woman that said that Islam needs to be changed because it caused AIDS?

[haqq]

This Is Soooooo Haraamm.

[Salah ud Deen]

You know the FOX news channel embraced this group. I think just because they know it is so unIslamic. Some good news though is that there is a group of Muslims who hack the site called "the Islamic Ox Brigades" and delete files and cause other problems. May Allah(swt) grant them success.

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

Us poor Ny'ers, its all over the place : (

[VeiledOne]

Salamu Alaikum

Us poor Ny'ers, its all over the place : (



It sure is...

May Allah give us all a better understanding of our roles...ameen

[VeiledOne]

first woman to lead a public, mixed-gender Friday prayer

Actually, I never seen to this extreme over here though..Alhumdulillah

[Goldi]

fiqh wise, if i were to pray in this congregation, would my prayer be valid?

[Salah ud Deen]

What do you all mean that it's all over in NY. That many Muslims support this pathetic type of behavior towards Allah(swt)?

[Sheema]

May Allah give us all a better understanding of our roles

Ameen

[salman]

What do you all mean that it's all over in NY. That many Muslims support this pathetic type of behavior towards Allah(swt)?

the news is... people talk not necessarily support.

[Salah ud Deen]

You know I know that many sisters get **** from brothers who say "the Qur'an says you have to do this" while ignoring the parts that they are suppose to follow. It is sad that as Muslim men we often see Islam as
[H]Islam. But I hardly doubt this MWU stunt will help things, just make things worse.

[Idrees]

fiqh wise, if i were to pray in this congregation, would my prayer be valid?

A wife cannot lead her husband in Salaat.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

I assume from this women cannot lead men in salah

[crazy_medic]

man thsi is a joke...wat r our own people cummin too. u got sum who say being homo is ok in Islaam...n now this?

if she were a truely follwoing Islam..n qualified at she supposed to be..im sure she realse this is big time wrong

[alibaba]

bah....when it comes to it......it all comes down to be our (mens) fault.....if we had given the women there God given right in Islam.......not opressed them as it is in a lot of cultures (arab, pakistani) if we had allowed women to be educated then this never would've occured!!!!...

remember extremism always breeds an extreme response!!!

we (men) were one extreme so they decided to counter it w/ another one


if we had not said that women are prohibited from going to the masjid (some ppl around here!!) if we didn't have so many women opressing self proclaimed scholars.......if we didn't make a corner for the women to worship while men enjoy the artistic luxury and beauty of the design of the masjid and ...if we had made a sizable and respectable entrance exclusively for the women rather than making them enter through the back alleys and doors then this never would've happened!!!

[Goldi]

bah....when it comes to it......it all comes down to be our (mens) fault.....if we had given the women there God given right in Islam.......not opressed them as it is in a lot of cultures (arab, pakistani) if we had allowed women to be educated then this never would've occured!!!!...

remember extremism always breeds an extreme response!!!

we (men) were one extreme so they decided to counter it w/ another one


if we had not said that women are prohibited from going to the masjid (some ppl around here!!) if we didn't have so many women opressing self proclaimed scholars.......if we didn't make a corner for the women to worship while men enjoy the artistic luxury and beauty of the design of the masjid and ...if we had made a sizable and respectable entrance exclusively for the women rather than making them enter through the back alleys and doors then this never would've happened!!!


While your method of transmission is crude and peppered with false claims, you have a very valid point.

I agree.

IMHO, due to a lack of foresight and identification of the new dynamics that are prevalent in our society, we find such polar responses. Moderation is a much wider and deeper concept than people think it to be.

[alibaba]

While your method of transmission is crude and peppered with false claims, you have a very valid point.

I agree.

IMHO, due to a lack of foresight and identification of the new dynamics that are prevalent in our society, we find such polar responses. Moderation is a much wider and deeper concept than people think it to be.

hahaha.....i am sorry that my manner of speaking is not as refined as thou......unfortunetly i am a person interested more in the sciences then in communication and the "beauty and the art of speaking".......although i would like to know where any of what I have said is "peppered w/ false claims"................

and you're from I love you????

[Goldi]

hahaha.....i am sorry that my manner of speaking is not as refined as thou......unfortunetly i am a person interested more in the sciences then in communication and the "beauty and the art of speaking".......although i would like to know where any of what I have said is "peppered w/ false claims"................

and you're from I love you????

I've learnt that people take you more seriously if you present an argument in a clear concise and articulate manner. You must understand how many people get away with looking smart just because they can articulate well.

Just something i've picked up over the years. Also, of all the people, our miracle is the miracle of literature and articulation. The Quran. Shouldn't we be masters of the tongue and word?

Dude, let's not get derailed. I have a feeling someone isnt going to agree with our 'opinion'. I wanna hear what they have to say. :p

[Noor ul Islam]

AssalaamuAlaikum
All sane muslim women would think that it is proposterous.Wassalaam.

[Mossy]

Yes, we blame it on the men as they have been the leaders and decision makers in this regard - they have been the ones to formulate both the laws and societal norms of education and interaction, sometimes with a valid shari basis, sometimes without. It is the males who sit on the majority of masjids boards in entirety and who make the decisions, so again, yes, it is the males fault - what input do the females have in this regard when facing culturally ingrained resistance?

Actions such as this occur because individuals feel alienated from muslim society at a base level - masjids are an excellent way to foster a sense of community, especially with the move from concentrated community where everyone knows each other, ie village/small population, to the current western paradigm of dispersed muslims living in a non-muslim land. If a female stays at home entirely, she quite simply will not have the same opportunity to interact with other muslims and feel included as with the traditional clustered societal paradigm. This problem is exacerbated for muslimahs bought up in the west, as they are left with a difficult call on which identity to adopt/societal framework. If they adopt this traditional "Pakiland" style framework, they will not have access to a myriad of benefits traditionally associated with it due to the geographical nature of dispersal of current city living. In addition, the negative/non-Islamic aspects come ever more to fore without the balancing effect of community.

I would hence argue that provision should be made by masjids/communities to cater for the female portion of society as it is deliterious to the ummah as a whole to have them cut off and alienated in this manner. One can argue that a woman's prayer is superior at home - but does this give a community the right to effectively make it impermissable to attend a masjid by simply not providing the facilities/areas requisite for this? I recognise this is not always possible due to the financial constraints of masjids in the west, but I have always been somewhat surprised that this is the case in a *muslim* country like "Pakiland" - how hard is it to have a seperate female area to which the mahram can drop them off? Is there any other form of regular communal event that the females can engage in in most of these? I believe this is an oversight on the part of many masjids there - there is a clear precedent with the lessons given by the Prophet (pbuh) and his wives for example in the masjid, this is something that should be implemented, but an augmentation of the fiqh outlined combined with cultural bias has eliminating in my opinion.

Your statement that in those masjid that allow women to attend, there is a corner, is completely on the spot. Most of these do, indeed, have a corner, with sub-par facilities and often poorly maintained as, of course, it is not a priority or something that deserves attention as females shouldn't be there anyway, but rather at home. This, of course, deters females from attending, which, as per my statements above, damages society given the current paradigm of societal interaction amongst muslims. It also causes antagonism as muslimahs, quite rightly, feel like second class citizens due to the decisions of the almost always all-male masjid board to simply not give their needs consideration. This leads to a reactionary attitude amongst many, as they wish to be a part of the community and not feel like they have to worship alone, but are unable to.. For an example of the feeling you get when you worship with others, please see hajj - one of the ultimates of communal feeling for muslims.

I have been to communities which have all male masjids and those which have been designed with males and females - families - in mind (sound proof glass areas for the kids). It cannot be denied that masjids help with community spirit and when females attend, children may also attend from a young age, giving them a focal point for both their sense of community and religion.

Look at the common perception of the masjid of our young today - a place where knowledge and peace can be found, or somewhere you have to go to on fridays and eid prayers? We need to centralise the masjid in our society once more and we cannot do this without giving due consideration and service to both our sisters AND our children.

If we do not do this, nor give the issue due consideration, we will continue to drift apart and suffer from social myopia and a lack of understanding of the changes in societal drivers that we must contend with and address both in the current western system, and indeed back in "Pakiland".

[alibaba]

allowing the women to go to the masjid is not post feminism....
it is a right given to them by the prophet himself...and no fiqh or madhab has the right to deny this to them Period.

[VeiledOne]

Salam alaikum

Akhi Mossy, I wholeheartedly agree with what you have to say. Women should be allowed to go to the mosque, even if it is superior to pray at home. That is besides the issue.

Maybe people here have misunderstood why exactly women have been barred from the mosques. I do not claim to be an expert on the Fiqh of Women in mosques. But I do know that under *specific* circumstances it becomes imperative for women not to go.

Maybe I should ellaborate a little bit more on this issue. Has anyone wondered why is it that the same 'ulama who bar women from going to the mosques back home (the East) actually encourage it when they are interacting with communities in the West? (I have met some people like this). On the surface this looks like hypocrisy. Scratch the surface and you would know a little better.

Back in Pakiland the honour of women is something disposable. A woman gets raped on the street, she is the one who's honour is hurt. A woman is divorced, she is the one who is blamed. The man escapes, without having to answer for his crime (the recent Panchiyaat case comes to mind here.)

I can claim to have travelled extensivley throughout Pakistan. Every single year of my life I have gone to Pakistan for at least three months. Over this three month period I visit Karachi, Faisalabad, Sargodha, Islamabad, Muree Rawalpindi, Lahore and Bhera. I have also visited Swat, Kalam, Malamjabba and some of the northern areas of Pakistan. Needless to say I have been to the mosques situated in these places, not only for Jummua but also for other prayer times as well (especially Isha and Maghrib).

With this extensive background, I can safely say that for a man like me it is downright scary to visit a mosque. Why? The filthiest of people can be found there. Many a time I have seen young boys (late teens/ early twenties) jeer at women who are merely passing by a mosque. I have had people tell me that their wallets were stolen, while inside a mosque. People swear inside mosques. It is very clear that people don't come with the intention to even pray at the mosque, let alone build a community feeling.

Most mosques, if not all are of this type. Simply put, it is not safe for people to visit mosques. Now since a man can take care of himself, and since Fiqh-wise it is an obligation upon him to pray in congregation, he is not barred. While a woman, not capable of handling herself against any unanticipated onslaught, should remain at home for her own safety.

Whatever the anti-sexual harassment laws of Pakiland, it is quite clear that they are not enforced to their maximum effect. Hence a woman, is without a friend, when it comes to such issues (again the Panchiyaat case comes to mind). Her honour is hurt, and no one is prepared to help her. In such a situation it becomes imperative for a woman to save herself first, and consequently her children.

Unfortunately, there have been two types of negative effects of this thinking. One, that Jaahil people have interpreted this to mean that women are supposed to stay at home, no matter what. And the second, that "Mullahs are wrong, because they don't allow women into mosques." Both types of mentalities are indeed wrong.

Mosques in Pakistan are simple buildings with little or no adminstration. And such mosques are in the majority. Even Jami' Masajid are not so well-organized. So the ruling of women not being allowed to go to a mosque applies to a generality of this case, which in of itself is a specific type of generality. (The Specific/Generality thingamajig of Fiqh).

The question that poses itself now is that if women can be barred for their own safety, why can't the men be barred for their lewd behaviour? As brother Mossy outlined, decisions are made solely by men. And *most* mosques are controlled by men. And since *most* of the time the "All Men are Paak" argument goes, to bar men from mosques seems like an abomination. And since such mosques are out of the control of the 'ulama (generally speaking) they cannot be blamed for it.

However, the mosques that are under 'ulama control (like the ones that are situated near Dar ul Ulooms) do have an administration and are controlled to a large extent. Surprisingly Madaris ul Banat (Madrassahs for Females) also have mosques, and interestingly enough women are allowed to enter here, because the environment in such mosques does not resonate with the environment found elsewhere. In fact I have been to some mosques in Karachi that have places for women, and not just "corners", but a whole section cordoned off, usually separated by a wall or a curtain.

What is needed is education. Education is not widespread. And it does not help the cause that people come up to say "Mullahs are wrong because they do not allow women to a mosque." On the part of the righteous 'ulama there are efforts to educate men and women both. It's just that they don't publicise themselves, like others do. Hopefully, insha Allah, there will be some sense-building going on among the lay masses, as well among the so-called literate ones that want a whole new brand of Islam for themselves. We can only hope and pray that that is the reality.

Hope the issue is clear now.

Wassalam

Well said. I agree its much different in Pakistan and I totally understand why the Ulema would stop the women from coming to the masjid there. There is so much fitnah there. Safety comes first.

[Sunni_Student786]

The permission for a woman to go to the Mosque was not, in the opinion of some of the most illustrious of Sahaba and Muslim scholars of the time, something that was unconditional. It was something regarding which there was obviously a difference of opinion. Anyone who denies that there was a difference of opinion among the Sahaba regarding whether or not their permission to go to the Masjid to pray was unconditional is not being accurate and/or honest. The Hadith of Hadhrat Bibi Ayesha (ra), which I am quoting for your convenience below, pays ample testimony to this.

From ’Amrah Bint ’Abdur-Rahmaan (radiyallaahu ’anhu) that she heard ’Aa‘ishah (radiyallaahu ’anhu) the wife of the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) saying, "If the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) saw what was innovated (ahdatha) by the women, he would have forbidden them (li man’a hunnaa) from the Mosque like the women of the Children of Israa’eel were forbidden." He said, "So I said to ’Amrah, 'Were the women of the Children of Israa’eel forbidden from the Mosque?" She said, "Yes." (Sahih Muslim)

I believe that you, my brother Ali Baba, believe Albani to be a qualified scholar based on some of the posts that I have read, although I could be wrong. If such is the case, it can be found in Al Albani's "Mukhtasar Saheeh Muslim" as hadith no. 264.

And to everyone else on this discussion, without naming names, just because someone follows a different, yet valid, perspective on fiqh (i.e. one of the four orthodox madhabs), and thus ruling on the matter, doesn't make it right to criticize that opinion unless we are scholars and specialists in comparative fiqh.

The relied upon opinion in the Hanafi madhab is that it is Makruh i Tahrimi for women to attend the Masjid GENERALLY speaking. That is not to say that the ruling doesn't change in the West, and that is not to say that it is right to simply have no place at all designated for women in the Masjids, but don't bash valid fiqhi opinions.

Differences of opinion (that are the result of the application of valid approaches to the understanding of the Quran and Sunnah inherited from the Sahaba) are not only to be tolerated, but viewed as a mercy from Allah.

[Mossy]

That's a somewhat superficial look at/inference of that narration - ahdahta referring to?.. It is an interesting one though - clearly things used to be ok at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), as is also inferred by it - what changed? How does this apply to the current situation? Is the ruling of the Hanafi madhab for example on this topic a general statement of principle based on absolute terms (ie gender interaction), or a response based on qiyas to a specific set of circumstances (lecherous/annoying pakistanis (no offense)?).

Having a rummage around, I believe they're following the position stated by al Tabari and abu al Thawr.. (http://www.livingislam.org/o/wbm_e.html for refutationing, although I can't remember seeing the tarawih stipulation in all of them when I looked em up a while back.. eh, leaky memory..)

Ahsan - what steps (if any) are being taken to educate the masses while witholding this community service from females in Pakistan (although of course there the need for some community aspects of the service are less)? In Pakistan I would venture that what is required more is the religious sense of community - females can't go to masjid, where do they get their Islamic education. If a female cannot go there, how about the children they look after? Is it any wonder that Dr Farhat Hashmi for example is so popular given the absence of alternate initiatives? Something definately needs to be done to rectify these problems in Pakistan, but I personally am more concerned about the choices facing Western muslims..

I'll talk about my opinion on some of the more unfortunate effects of both chain migration and high level integration with respect to the Pakistan situation (using it as a generalised homeland/point of origination) on Western muslim society in a day or two insh'Allah.. Now, to prayer and work..

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Women are quite oddly oppressing themselves. Although I agree...that in the past illegitimate, ignorant leaders led the way to oppress woman falsely under the name of Islam. And its not just in the past, it occurs still.

Inside the villages in South East Asia (I mention this because I know personally of that and well...it might be happening elsewhere but well...me not aware...so...) women are put to work, not give their rights, and just told simply...husband's got all the rights...u women are crud...(sorry for the crude language sadly bufoons say that just to get their points across) May Allah (SWT) guide them and ease the situation of the sisters who suffer and guide those illiterate, ignorant, cruel ppl. Ameen.

I'm sure you all recall the story of the sister and all those village men...a year or so back...that was sick and wrong...and as they say in Urdu...this is what gives certain ppl the 'shay' to go about and practice such extreme acts of feminism.

At the same time, backwardly, the Madrisas which teach women their rights Islamically are condemned as being backwards and lacking of woman's rights...

I don't get the 'other side' either (I've given up calling the West) because East or West, SOuth or North...its all the same...

Is showing off one's body supposed to be a form of liberation? Is strutting around shoulder to shoulder with strange men who turn and look at you for God knows what reason...really much of a liberation? And then one wonders why the level of sexual assault and harassment is so high in these parts?

Isn't it possible to secure the entrances for both males and females...so they don't mix whatsoever...and come on brothers don't stick the sisters in the basement or in the balcony...thats not fair...nor nice...I mean sure if there are less sisters who frequent the Masjid at least give them a smaller room and proper explanation before condemning them to the basement. Those who take this path...are usually not given the proper knowledge and instructions...it wouldn't kill us to be slightly more tolerant and explain in a nicer manner...instead of brushing them off with a few choice words...

We, as sisters, should also take an initiative in helping ppl who're slightly confused about the so-called gender imbalance of Islam(which doesn't even exist to begin with)...but a proper explanation would help instead of saying...oii ur wrong so get lost ur a troublemaker...

(Honestly happened to some Muslim Revert...who went away from the Masjid...and I think has now earned the right to pray shoulder to shoulder with men)...

Assalamu aliakum

[Noor ul Islam]

AssalaamuAlaikum,
Brothers you are right about Pakistani women and the Ulemas disinterst in promoting their religious education. All I want to say that things are changing bit by bit and even though gradual a change is in progress. Karachi is quite rich in Ulemas and I personally know of Mufti Taqi Usmanis quite a few students who have obtained their Ifta degrees.
Maybe a reaction to Dr. FArhat Hashmis propoganda of anti-Taqlled but the Ulema are now engouraging and teaching women under their own guidance, whereas in the past it was a unique phenomenon.
I,myself, am doing a course under the guidance of Mufti Abdul Wahid who has also arranged an Ustand of high calibre for our Fiqh classes.
The number is still not up to the mark but there are quite a few number of Madrasa here in Lahore also. In karachi the number of women Muftias is increasing day by day and well known Madaris are working towards this effect.
The future is not that bad but allowing women in Masajids is a fiqhi Masala and in HAnafi fiqh it is Makrroh e Tahrimi fo women to go to mosques. So I think debating on it is impropriate. You can confirm this Jurisprudence from any Hanafi scholar.

[Mossy]

Hmm, there are a number of things I would suggest can be discussed bearing in mind the Hanafi (of course, not all of us are Hanafi..) position that a woman's prayer is better at home than in a mosque/it is disliked for a woman to go to the mosque either in a) the general case or b) the specific case of Indo-Pak society (clarification on this would be good). For example, the above restriction from what I've seen is with regards to congregational prayer - mosques are, however, multipurpose establishments, so would, for example, women be able to attend halaqahs at the mosque under the tutelage of either a female or indeed male scholar?

It's good that some initiatives are now in place, and I would concur with ahsanirfan's suggestion of the need for a civil change (thus not a bidah) of approach, although a tableegh style system would be unfeasible given the nature of subcontinental society (I'll discuss Western society later, been cogitating).

We need to isolate and look at some of the core problems before we can address them. Accesibility of religious education (ie covering the basics to counteract the destabilising effect of cultural norms) is something that I would suggest must be addressed at a young age. This can only occur if a structured and coherent approach is undertaken to impress these basics of religion and, indeed, morality of religion upon our youth - it is easier to educate a boy of 6 than a man of 60 and, moreover, make it stick. That's just one aspect.. How to address it? Hmm.. I'd be happy to discuss with other members what possible (practical) approaches we could undertake to propogate a correct Islamic foundation amongst the muslim populace of, say, the subcontinent in another thread.

My thoughts are that this would necessitate a different system to one that would be effective in the west for example, as well as needing to be stratified across classes.

I would venture however that you are unlikely to see incidents such as the one this thread is based on in that region due to the different societal makeup. Again, if anyone would like to discuss possible avenues to addressing some of the issues that have cropped up with regards to this in greater depth, please feel free to start a new thread - as long as we're discussing, we may as well be discussing something headed towards a goal :)

[Noor ul Islam]

Brother
You are absolutely correct in suggesting that eduacting children their roles and duties in the society should begin at an early age.For this purpose good Islamic education at an early stage of life is extremely important and need of the day. I donnot think that Islamic ruling diversifies to a great extent in differnt regions it could be modified but not changed altogether for different cultures.Wassalam.

[Mossy]

I'd take the necessity for education at a young age and extend to the fact that most individuals Islam is shaped by those who raise them - in IndoPak society, this is largely the mother who stays at home under the traditional system.

I'm not sure how the ruling of prohibition can be a generalised one given the fact that men and women prayed together at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) - as is still the case in masjid al haram/masjid al nabi. For example: " Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Do not forbid the female slaves of Allah from (going into) the mosques of Allah." Malik's Muwatta 14.6.12, a similar narration is in kitab al juma in Sahih Bukhari (858), as well as other evidences which point to a permissable unless.. position. Indeed, in some narrations there evidence of direct action being taken to facilitate female attendence in the masjid, such as Umar's erection of seperate doorways for either sex - the major problem also seemed to be loitering in the masjid by the females as this is what he also banned, as opposed to attending the obligatory prayers/tarawih. Makes you wonder about the males who loiter in masjids nowadays.. Still, that's just me thinking out loud, it'd be interesting if someone could find out the exact status of this within the Hanafi madhab.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

This discussion of Pakistani mosques is interesting, but it's sort of illustrative of the frustration and irrelevant to what's going on here. Ahsan said that in the West women can go to the masjid. Yeah. Legally. But unless Ahsan has ever been a woman (which he isn't), then he can't speak with certainty on that, b/c Ahsan has not had the experience of being kicked out of a masjid in the US (or perhaps Canada) for the sole reason of being a woman. Things might be one way in Pakistan or Bangladesh, but I personally resent it when people from "over there" want to bring their situations "over here." There are many masajid in NY where women aren't allowed -- and every woman knows it. And if you happen to be out travelling or shopping when it's time to pray, you're still not allowed in that masjid. So we won't even get into the "women's musallah" that has urine in the corners, or a leaky roof, or no carpeting, or no heating, or not enough space, etc. etc. No, a woman isn't required to pray in a masjid, but in our society, Islam is not part of the culture. The masjid (besides her family or her internet and her books) may be the only place where she can get some diyn. So imagine being told "Get out, woman" or coming to find some spiritual renewal and being faced with a urine soaked, leaky carpet. But we can keep on saying "But they don't have to go to the masjid" if we want, and not face the situation...

Traditional Muslims should have been taking this one up from the get go, but we didn't. Now we have people like Asra Nomani saying that they speak for us (when even women from her own masjid are being silenced or ignored, saying that they do not agree with her and she is misrepresenting the situation).

OK this is my pet peeve. And I'm in an off sorts mood today.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

PS -- sort of resent the implication that sisters are so blinded by our own gender that we wouldn't be able to see this so-called "jama'at" for what it is -- haram and an insult to this diyn.

[Sunni_Student786]

Very nice and, appropriately, balanced analysis.

[faqir]

A nice letter I got from the saifulislam yahoogroup........


As Salaamu Alaikum,

This is a letter of advice to a sister who uttered some statements
of disbelief in relation to the Qur'an. I post it here because
there are some statements in it from the scholars and founders of
the Sokoto Khilafah. Inshaa'Allah, there will be more coming due to
the fact that this 'progressive' movement now intends to have a
jumu'ah khutbah & prayer led by this same sister in NYC. So far
none of the leaders have come on record to refute her and her group
(at least I haven't heard about it).

Na'eem


In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. All praises are
due to Allah, the One who revealed the Criterion to His slave so
that he would be a warner to all of the worlds. Then he explained
to mankind what He revealed to them so that they would reflect on
His signs and bear in mind the reminder by means of it. He unveiled
the interpretation and explanation of the meaning of the clear
verses, they are the foundation of the Book. He put off the
interpretation and explanation of those verses that are not so
clear, they are ambiguous of speech. May Allah Bless him, his
family and his companions. And grant him and them abundant peace.



This is a letter of advice from the poor slave in desperate need of
the mercy of his Lord, Na'eem Abdullahi, to my erudite sister
Professor Amina Wadud.


As to what follows:

My intention is to be brief, as I am sure your inbox is full of
emails containing both praise and condemnation, after your recent
lecture in Toronto. I received an email several days ago and the
first thing that I read was, "'I AM A ******, AND YOU WILL JUST HAVE
TO PUT UP WITH MY BLACKNESS,' PROFESSOR AMINA WADUD CONFRONTS HER
HECKLERS IN TORONTO." My first reaction was one of elation. I felt
as if someone finally had the courage to deal with an issue that too
many of our leaders are doing their utmost to sweep under the rug.
Therefore, I would like to begin this risaalah by commending you for
speaking the truth regarding race relations, within the Muslim
community, in the way that you did in Toronto. In fact, I think the
most profound part of that article is, "When an Indian man told
Wadud that he understood racism, she replied, "No you don't
understand. You are not Black; you don't know what it is to be
Black." The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, is
reported to have said, "The best Jihad is to speak the truth to an
oppressive ruler." It is with this Prophetic saying in mind that I
express my appreciation for your honesty.

I should mention here that I've never met you, read any of
your writings, nor have I ever heard of you before that article, and
your subsequent response, which was published (which I have appended
to this letter). So my comments are based on those two sources
alone.

My feeling of elation quickly turned into one of disappointment when
I progressed deeper into the article. I could provide textual,
historical and logical evidences – from our primary and secondary
sources - that would unequivocally show the fallacy of your stated
position with regard to the interpretation of the Qur'an and the
understanding of its injunctions. You have stated that you are
proficient in the Arabic Language. Which also means that you have
access to the Islam's primary and secondary sources, without
depending on someone's watered-down translation. Therefore, I
believe that the problem is not your ignorance of what all of our
mujtahid scholars have said about the Qur'an, its huquuq, and its
interpretation. This is why I began this letter in the way that I
did. The introductory paragraph is not comprised of my own words.
They are the words of our erudite, African, scholar-warrior,
Abdullahi ibn Fudi, the brother of the great mujaddid, `Uthman ibn
Fudi (dan Fodio). It is a translation of the introduction of his
tafsir - Diya' at-Ta'weel fi ma'ani at-Tanzeel. He also said in his
introduction, "Realize! That the science of tafseer is a science
which is known by understanding the revealed Book of Allah, the Most
High, the elucidation of its meanings (bayaan ma'aanihi), the
extraction of its legal rulings (istikhraaja ahkaamihi) and its
judgments (hukmihi). Support for that is procured from the science
of syntax (an-nahwi), linguistics (al-lughah), morphology (at-
tasreefi) and the science of rhetoric (al-ma'ani), eloquence (al-
bayaan), metaphors (al-bidee'i), the foundations of the religion
(usuul ad-deen), jurisprudence (fiqh), the roots or foundations of
jurisprudence (usuul al-fiqh), the proper vocalization of the Qur'an
(al-Qiraa'aat) and the science of the causative factors of the
revelation (asbaab al-nuzuul), the abrogating (an-naasikh) and the
abrogated verses (al-mansuukh)."

My sister, what I'm trying to express to you is the fact that you
(nor anyone else) has the right to interpret the Qur'an without
recourse to the early community and their tafaasir. The Qur'an is
not obliged to submit to our intellects, but rather our intellects
must submit to it. You are not the only one who is guilty of this.
I will run out of fingers and toes if I begin to count all of the
imams, amirs, and politicians who feel too comfortable twisting the
meanings of Allah's book to suit their base and worldly desires.
One of our contemporary scholars had this to say to one of his
colleagues who distorted the verses of Allah's book for political
motives, "My purpose is to clarify that no one, not even you, have
the license to say about this Qur'an what is not fitting for it. It
has been related by at-Tirmidhi on the authority of Ibn Abass:


ãóäú ÞÇáó Ýöí ÇáúÞõÑúÂäö ÈöÛóíúÑö Úöáúãò ÝóáúíóÊóÈóæøÃú ãóÞúÚóÏóåõ ãöäó
ÇáäøÇÑö

"Whoever speaks about the Qur'an without knowledge, should prepare
for his place in the Fire."

The scholars, without exception have
said that this statement is a clear condemnation of those who give
exegesis of the Qur'an based upon ignorance. If this is the case,
then what of those who know that what they are saying is false or
that it is contrary to consensus? WE SEEK REFUGE WITH ALLAH FROM
THAT!"

I believe that this trend of free, unchecked misinterpretation of
the Qur'an is a direct result of our submission to colonization. We
are in a situation where people can get away – in this life – with
saying anything they want about Allah and His Messenger. When the
Sokoto Khilafah was being attacked by the Europeans all fronts in
1903, and the scholars and rulers were differing with regard to how
they should respond, the Qadi – Modibo Abdu - of one of the southern
Emirates rejected the idea of submission, citing the outcome of
living under the ahkaam of the kuffaar, "This will result in the
Muslims being stamped with their destructive characteristics and
blameworthy customs and the Muslims will eventually imitate the
Europeans illicit way of life. This will go on until the weak
hearted ones among the Muslims grow fond of their customs and become
laden with corruption. Eventually, the youth will mature molded in
the pattern of the European way of life. The women and children will
become fascinated by them and began to dress themselves with their
adornment until when the amply honored Sunna of the Prophet perishes
and pitch-black innovation (bid`a) is revived. This state of
affairs will continue until their European way of life prevails and
spreads. Thus, the Muslims become humiliated because of their
entering under the domination of the Christians. "TRULY WE BELONG TO
ALLAH, AND TO HIM WE WILL RETURN!""

The statements which you have made in public are the product of a
mind that is burdened with the arrogance inherent in `western'
academia – where everything is open to debate. There is no Truth
with a capital "T". In other words, everything is relative. The
Book of Allah can mean one thing for me and the complete opposite
for you…

I will stop here. May Allah increase you in blessings. My
intention was not to bash you and I hope my words were not taken in
that light. If you decide to disregard everything which I have
said, please ponder over the words of the best of creation, may
Allah Bless him and grant him peace. "Whoever speaks about the
Qur'an without knowledge, should prepare for his place in the Fire."

Your Brother,

Na'eem Abdullahi

[Noor ul Islam]

Brother,
Well said.Bravo.Wassalaam

[Mossy]

www.living-tradition.blogspot.com also had a look at the recent speech.

Good job ahsan, those were some of the points I was trying to get at. I would also venture that tribal/cultural norms such as the male dominated masjid board and male only masjids are exported to the West due to the insular nature of immigrant society essentialising hte base social parameters of public gender relations in particular, causing them to become even more severe then they may be at first. In the absence of widespread qualified ulema, these can rapidly be assumed to be the normative way of things, which comes into conflict with both qualified understanding and western society's concepts of freedom and equality (which have some elements in common with the Islamic ideals and some not). You will never be able to totally seperate the desi from desiland..

[Sunni_Student786]

This is more an issue of difference in Fiqh than a cultural one. Do not lose sight of that please.

[ahsanirfan]

This is more an issue of difference in Fiqh than a cultural one. Do not lose sight of that please.

dont worry akhi... we know .. at least i do....

[Ibn Umaysh]

Asalaamu alaikum

Actually, I would think twice about calling it an issue of fiqh. An issue of fiqh is something qualified scholars disagree on. This is more an issue of non-fiqh. hich leads us to assume: what is the real basis behind this radical [non]ijtihad? Why is it that this happened to be interpreted in such a way rather than, say, any other decided issue? Because the problem IS cultural, in fact, it is entirely out of the realm of Islamic law because none of its principles are being upheld, only the conclusion is what is aimed at here. In other words, had the cultural context not existed, I doubt someone would have ventured into this topic to defy all Islamic scholarship and decide soemthing so controversial- especially someone who would identify so strongly with the benefits of the conclusion. The issue is, we are living in a culture where we cannot come to terms with the differences between it, and our faith. Some of us just give up on making the two meet, and they come in two parties: the first who, more or less according to the individual, abandon religion, and those who abandon the culture. Then, there are people in the middle who try to frame every religious issue in a cultural context, hoping in futility to "re-discover" the allowances that make the two aspects into a perfectly compatible lifestyle, such that neither area's values get compromised. And some do this on a smaller scale, with compromises and recognize that their approach may have shorcomings; others just don't care whether whichever selective practice they choose conforms to the greater of the two demands: religion. This is a sign of desperation I believe, not growth. This will be helped by knowledge, and practising on that knowledge insha'Allah.

[GreenPapaya]

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00005261.aspx

Women Leading Prayers and the Way of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)

Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

[GreenPapaya]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bewleyupdates/message/20600

Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali


Let's get right to the point.



The first problem with this scheduled event is that the theme
is `Muslim Women Reclaim Right to Lead Prayer,' while it should
read `Muslim Women Claim Right to Lead Prayer,' since there is no
basis for the belief that it was ever a right for women to lead a
mixed-group prayer. And there are no explicit accounts of women ever
leading a mixed-group of men and women in prayer.



Three of the four Sunni Schools of law (Hanafis, Shafi'is, and
Hanbalis) permit for a woman to lead other women in prayer except
that the one leading is not to stand out in front of the row.[1]
Rather, she is to remain aligned in a single row with the other
women, so as not to appear to be leading as a man would. They base
this on the following reports:



1- Imam Baihaqi, Daraqutni, and Ibn Abi Shayba report from
Ra'ita Al-Hanafiyya that she said: "'Aisha led us. And she stood
between us during the obligatory prayer."

2- Ibn Abi Shayba and `Abdur-Razzaq Al-San'ani report by way of
Hujayra bint Husayn that she said: "Umm Salama led us in Salatul-
`Asr. And she stood between us."[2]



Imam Al-Nawawwi says about these two hadiths, Daraqutni and Baihaqi
related them with sahih chains.[3]



As for Imam Malik and the popular view held in the Maliki School,
any prayer that a woman leads others in – whether women, men, or
mixed – is invalid. Ali ibn Abi Talib is reported to have said, "The
woman is not to lead (Salat)."[4] This was also the view of Sulaiman
ibn Yasar and Al-Hasan Al-Basari.[5]

[Ajami]

From Shariahboard:
http://www.shariahboard.com/fatwa/Faith%20&%20Beliefs/4679.php

[shunni]

i condemn any one who goes to this salat.

[abuyaqub]

Assalamu alaikum,

Can someone pls enumerate their proofs for doing this in brief pls?

[Mossy]

It's really not very logically coherent:

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/women_imamat.php#more

You can find refutations of various aspects here:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4137

1. The Umm Waraqah hadith is discussed in detail in the above thread, with references to its authenticity and scholarly analysis of the context - in short, it cannot be used to establish a normative ruling for a woman leading a Friday jumah. Indeed, the most generous inference would only lead it as far as her having led prayer for the members of her household with special permission - the males of the household being an old man and a lad.

2. Appeal to authority. The scholars cited did not support generalised female imamat when suitable males were available, nor did some support it at all in any case for obligatory prayers - only tarawih. Each of the scholars is from a dead school, which have not been cross checked for consistency - indeed, within the Zahiri madhab, its most famous proponent, Ibn Hazm, denied the permissability of such actions in his Muhalla.

3. At the time at which Balqees was Queen of Sheba in the verses cited, we also see she was an idolator. She clearly wasn't doing everything right.. In addition, this is a case of leadership in mu'amalat, not in ibadat. Using such an extension is specious reasoning. There is an assumption of correctness and male bias in the second part of this point where the great scholars of our deen are inferred to have made haram that which is halal.

4. Ok, she's reaching pretty far on this one..

5. .. again working from the supposition that women are prevented from being imams with no legal/juristic basis, but due to the discriminatory nature of male scholarship.

6. Yes, justice is good and Allah (swt) is Just, with this ultimate justic reflected in his Shariah.

7. You don't take an illah and then try to derive a hukm from it. If she's using that verse as a basis by attaching those two, then they should simultaneously give charity while praying. The issue is also not whether a female can give the khutbah, but whether she can lead the actual prayer itself. If you're going to discuss fiqh, do it right, starting from the sources, deriving a ruling and then exploring the wisdom. If you start the other way round with a completely new action that has not been done before, ie a woman leading the Friday prayer, which also goes against all major madhab positions, then you should be extra careful about it - prayer is not something to be taken lightly.

The objections listed can be addressed elsewhere.

[abuyaqub]

u mean proofs FOR going to the salat or proofs AGAINST going to the salat?

I mean for holding the salaah. Brother 'Mossy' has given me the details Jazaakumullah khair

[Saamiah]

Eloqeunt Answer by Mufti Muhammad Saeed Khan in Urdu.

www.irvingmasjid.org/tafseer.asp

Titled Aurtoon Key Imamat in Surah Namal.

[eTeacher]

The event with a different perspective:

http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=kr156

[eTeacher]

also...we have to speak out collectively in the harshest of words when such matters confront the ummah....

otherwise...man.....

my job's on the line... :)

[Hypermodestmuslima]

also...we have to speak out collectively in the harshest of words when such matters confront the ummah....

otherwise...man.....

my job's on the line... :)

Lolz...Jazakallah for the link!

[Mems]

there is a thread bout this on every islamic forum!!!

[Omar HH]

Umm...

NOBODY even CARES about this. The only media this got (other than a few articles in a few newspapers here and there and a few TV segments) was MUSLIMS talking about it.

But anyways may Allah (SWT) forgive them,

And let's always remember that calling the haraam (by ijma) as halal is disbelief.

[TapeMonkey]

In the last class concerning the 40 Hadith of Imam Nawawi given by Imam Zaid at Zaytuna, there were some questions unrelated to the class (since it was test day). This issue came up. Below are the paraphrased remarks Imam Zaid gave on the issue, which I think show some deep insight. (Remember, these are my words, not his, I'm just paraphrasing the best I can).

Some of the things he mentioned are, regardless of the sex, any muslim who says "I should be imam" shouldn't be imam. Traditionally, those who seek power are forbidden from having it. He said that traditionally, if you said you should lead the prayer, they'd tell you to go sit in the back row and humble yourself for a few years.
He also called it a fitnah. Like, consider what this will cause to happen to the women of this ummah. The conservatives are going to circle the wagons, there will be a conservative backlash. He put an example of an immigrant from say a more oppressive country moving here who is more open with his wife in this environment. He's going to see these influences and reverse.
If anything, it's a confusion. You have many muslims now going, "Is this right? Is it ok?" It created arguments and splits in the ummah, further marginalizing us.
He then said the best course is it ignore it. Those who walk towards a fitna are better than those who run, and those who creep are better than those who walk. Those who sit are better than those who stand.

I just thought that was a really neat, nuanced way to look at it (a major reason why I want to study at Zaytuna). As soon as they post their response (the shari'ah response) I'll post it here (if someone doesn't beat me to the punch).

[Hypermodestmuslima]

Hmm...I rather enjoyed the link by eTeacher it had an enlightened and very comical look into the situation...it kind of lightened up my mood...

Truthfully...they just want attention...and unfortunately they got it from the audience they wanted...the Muslims...

[TapeMonkey]

Umm...

NOBODY even CARES about this. The only media this got (other than a few articles in a few newspapers here and there and a few TV segments) was MUSLIMS talking about it.

But anyways may Allah (SWT) forgive them,

And let's always remember that calling the haraam (by ijma) as halal is disbelief.

I think the less general media attention, the better. Hopefully this whole event can become forgotten all the faster. I just hope there aren't people who go there to protest, thus practicing poor 'adab (in my personal opinion), and giving it even more news cameras.

The whole thing about the non-muslims not caring and the muslims caring strikes me kinda funny. Kind of the opposite of Irshad Manji, where all the non-muslims love her and the muslims can't stand her. I remember thinking I was the only one who thought she was....something negative but not too negative (I don't want to spend my days bad mouthing muslims, even muslims who regret being muslim). After juma'a last week some brothers invited me to go out and eat and I brought her up, and they were all in agreement (not 'ijma :-) that they didn't like her.

[eat-halal guy]

The 2nd article on that site Ml. Nazim (eTeacher) linked was hilarious. lol.

I sorta liked the following statement in a Reuters newswire report (at least from a journalistic point of view):


Islamic women typically sit separately from men in worship services and, in some cases, enter their mosque through a back or side door. Orthodox Jews also segregate men from women during religious services. Roman Catholics do not allow women to hold important leadership roles.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-03-19T024303Z_01_CHA880695_RTRUKOC_0_RELIGION-MUSLIMS.xml

[Salah ud Deen]

Even if this event is not forgotten, as long as we stick fast to Islam and do not let these "people" wave us from our deen we should all do well.

Also, is this an act of kufr that they are doing?

[faqir]

Woman leads Muslims in prayers


BY JORDAN LITE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/291431p-249497c.html

Under armed guard, a woman broke with more than a thousand years of Islamic tradition to lead men and women in a prayer service yesterday in Manhattan.


Amina Wadud said she wanted "to remove the artificial and sometimes extremely inconvenient restrictions on the entry and participation of women" in Islam, the fastest-growing religion in the United States.

It is rare for a woman to act publicly as the imam, or prayer leader, at a coed gathering of Muslims. In many American mosques, women must use a separate entrance and prayer space.

But yesterday, at the same service, another woman, Suehyla El-Attar of Atlanta, gave the call to prayer normally sounded by men. She was answered by about 120 other men and women, who prayed side by side in a hall at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine.

Though dismissed by critics as a publicity stunt, the service was heavily scrutinized by Arab media and on Internet discussion boards. Wadud, an Islamic studies professor at Virginia Commonwealth University, and others even received abusive calls and E-mails, said Saleema Abdul-Ghafur, a board member of the Progressive Muslim Union, which organized the event. More than a dozen cops stood watch, and participants were searched for weapons.

One shouting protester tried to enter the hall before the service began, but he was stopped by two police officers. He later joined a dozen other demonstrators outside holding signs saying, "Mixed-gender prayer today, hellfire tomorrow."

Although billed as a spiritual event, yesterday's service held potentially profound social implications for Muslims around the world, said Khaled Abou El-Fadl, a professor of Islamic law at UCLA. "What the fundamentalists are worried about is that there's going to be a ripple effect not just in the U.S. but all over the Muslim world," Abou El-Fadl said. "The women who are learned and frustrated that they cannot be the imam are going to see that someone got the guts to break ranks and do it."








...... there you go - she even has the support of Mr. Khaled Abou El-Fadl [someone who Sh. G.F. Haddad described as a Mutazilite]

[faqir]

And here is a picture to go along with the above news piece [do go back and read it for an expose' of Khaled Abou el Fadl]:

It looks like one of the participants has forgotten her Hijab!!

[oh well, I am sure Dr. Wadud will be able to back her up with Qur'an and Hadith]

MOD: Very messed up, however pictures of people are not allowed.

[notice the "men" in the background?]

[seven]

messed up or what?!!

MOD: Very messed up, however pictures of people are not allowed.

[TapeMonkey]

I mentioned in a previous post where I paraphrased Imam Zaid Shakir's ad-hoc verbal response to the whole woman leading the congregation. I've now got a rough transcript of the talk (typed by me, be kind). I tried to keep it as accurate as possible, though generally filtered out a lot of the eccentricities that one finds in a person's everyday speech. Keep in mind this is a rough transcript of a talk given without notes. It was a Q&A session and the question came up. The style is not as coherent as an article, so don't think Imam Zaid is some guy who can't focus his thoughts. It's not a edited article.

His response begins at 21:27

"The reason this is going to happen is cause we're in America. That's why it's going to happen. In other words, you pay your money, you rent the hall, and you do what you want to do. This is America.
And another reason this is going to happen is because we're in America and there's no formal religious authority, then people make themselves into authorities, and as a result do what they want to do. So that's why it's happening. But is it right? It's not right and it's not proper. In the tradition ahl-e-as-Sunnah [other traditions listed which I'm unfamiliar with, so I can't type them correctly]... so from the dominant islamic traditions isn't not something that's sanctioned. The proofs and discussions of that are many. And I would say that the way it's being conducted, it wouldn't be permissible for a man to do what this lady's doing. Because it's an expression of an unrestrained nafs. Is it appropriate for a muslim, male or female, to say "I should have the right to lead the juma'a. I'm going to put myself forward over the believers." That's too much nafs, and that's a public position. And one of the basic principles on public positions is what? Whoever desires a public position is forbidden from holding it.

If any man did that in a place where there is islamic authority, he would be told, "We don't care what you want to do. You need to go to the back row and humble yourself for a few years before you put yourself up before the muslims." But from the shari'ah point of view there are a lot of issues, and insha'allah we are going to have something up on the Zaytuna Website in a few days with the nuances associated with the legal matters. But just from the point of appropriateness for a muslim in general. It's not anything the Prophet (sallalahu alaihe wa sallam) ever sanctioned.

There's a hadith of Umm Waraqah, and from the position of ahl-e-as-Sunnah the hadith is da'if. There is a weak narrator in the chain, and there's an unknown. So that hadith, based on that narration is not suitable for a proof. It's in Abu Dawood. The hadith says that Umm Waraqah was given permission to lead the people of her house. [arabic, I think it means, "people of the houseould. Something like Ahl e-bayt, but not exactly that] And there's no indication that there were men in that congregation she was given permission to lead. [arabic, same as before] And the Prophet (sallalahu alaihe wa sallam) told her to appoint a man to call the adhan for her, which indicated they might have all been women. We don't know. So there are a lot of nuances. Also the hadith would be weak, contradicted by other hadiths that are sound which say a woman shouldn't lead a group in prayer. Also, in terms of going before the men as an imam, the hanafi school doesn't allow the group prayer at all for w omen. They pray individually. And the other three schools don't permit the woman leading a group of women to go in front of them, she stands in the middle of the row equal with everyone else. So on what basis do we put the woman in front of not only the women, but the men, when the prophet told her to stand in the middle of the row? So there are a lot of things.

The issue of the juma'a is considered part of the prayer. [arabic--can't transliterate, possibly Qur'an] This is the khutbah and the prayer, so it is all considered salah. And in salah the men can speak and say subhan'Allah, but the women are told to clap their hands to alert the imam and not to raise their voices. So there are a lot of issue to be looked at. And then the people advocating this, they have their proofs, so the specific refutation of those has to be known, so insha'Allah we're gonna put our piece out and people can consider the merits of the argument against such a thing.

But it also comes to a thing when, what is most appropriate at the time? In other words, at a time where islam is generally being attacked from all angles, is it appropriate even if you feel, or if you have a right, to pursue your right if it means further and deep cleaviges within the muslim community at a time of fitnah? Or should one pull back and wait for a more appropriate time under more appropriate circumstances?
And it's a fitnah, it's a fitnah. Why is it a fitnah? People are confused. You know, "Is this right?" or "She can do it, what proof do you have to stop her?" Muslims are fighting and arguing, Muslims are pulling away from each other. "We don't need these masjids, they're all backwards and reactionary. We'll make a new progressive Islam." So it's a fitnah, and during a fitnah, the one who walks towards it is better than the one who runs towards it. The one who creeps towards it is better than the one who walks towards it. The one who remains seated is better than the one who stands. Et cetera. So one should not hasten to get wrapped up in these turmoils, because no good will come of it, no good.
For women, I mean what will happen to the sisters? Things are improving in the masajid. Things are improving. It might not be as fast as some like, but things are improving. But what's gonna happen? The conservatives are going to circle the wagon, go on the defensive and clamp down. And people are are considered extreme are going to go to another extreme, and you're going to have a deep cleavege in the muslim community. And under those circumstances... so husbands are realizing, "I'm in america, I'm not in a village in Uzbekistan, so I should ease up a little." What's he gonna do? "I don't want you listening to those people. I don't want you going..." So it's going to create a conservative backlash on the one hand, and more confusion on the other hand. So ask Allah for well being. Ask Allah for well being."

Response ends at 29:50.

[TapeMonkey]

Even if this event is not forgotten, as long as we stick fast to Islam and do not let these "people" wave us from our deen we should all do well.

Also, is this an act of kufr that they are doing?

Agreed. On the kufr part, I'd personally say it would be better not to bother pondering is something is kufr or not. That only encourags people to make takfir, which, in my opinion, is a messy affair and shows extremely bad 'adab. Personally I think I'd have to be a mujtahid imam before I could even consider such an option.

Course...it's hard not to wonder.

[Mossy]

Good article:


I think that Wadud is being somewhat selfish here, and her supporters, namely members of the Progressive Muslim Union, are being somewhat opportunistic.

Both are fully aware that the token issue they have chosen to trumpet is neither at the forefront of Muslim women's rights/needs, nor at the forefront of the very real challenges facing the Muslim-American community at this stage of its development. Both know that there are far more important, pressing, and less controversial issues that are begging to be served; issues that promise to galvanize a much more constructive reaction from a somewhat dormant community. And yet they choose to forgo these issues and opt for one they know will create more rifts in the Muslim community than amends.

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/13733/g

I would concur. Recent posts at Living Tradition (living-tradition.blogspot.com) have also followed up on this theme.