Forced Marraige Issue!

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Asslamo Allaikum,

A Sister was taken to Pakistan and forced into a marriage. On the wedding video she is clearly saying on Camera that she does not want to get married to this man (in plain English & her Native langauge) while the hired Maulvi continues with the Nikah in front of the witnesses.

She repeats it more then once. This isn't about divorce because in my humble opinion she isn't even married. Her Nikah can't be valid, can it?

[Adeel bin Minhaj]

:salam:

reading these types of stories just makes me wonder what kind of Islamic education these people have, let alone what kind of morals these people have.

[Riyaaz]

Asslamo Allaikum,

A Sister was taken to Pakistan and forced into a marriage. On the wedding video she is clearly saying on Camera that she does not want to get married to this man (in plain English & her Native langauge) while the hired Maulvi continues with the Nikah in front of the witnesses.

She repeats it more then once. This isn't about divorce because in my humble opinion she isn't even married. Her Nikah can't be valid, can it?

Slmz,

Yet another case of 'cultural habits' taking precedense over Sharia/Din...I also used to (maybe not follow but accept) 'cultural practices' but Alhamdullilah I've seen the light!

Wslmz,

Mo.

[abz]

Asslamo Allaikum,

A Sister was taken to Pakistan and forced into a marriage. On the wedding video she is clearly saying on Camera that she does not want to get married to this man (in plain English & her Native langauge) while the hired Maulvi continues with the Nikah in front of the witnesses.

She repeats it more then once. This isn't about divorce because in my humble opinion she isn't even married. Her Nikah can't be valid, can it?

stuff like that makes me want to cry, they are our sisters

[KUmair]

Asslamo Allaikum,

A Sister was taken to Pakistan and forced into a marriage. On the wedding video she is clearly saying on Camera that she does not want to get married to this man (in plain English & her Native langauge) while the hired Maulvi continues with the Nikah in front of the witnesses.

She repeats it more then once. This isn't about divorce because in my humble opinion she isn't even married. Her Nikah can't be valid, can it?

Well this is not uncommon in Pakistan. May Allah Guide those people and us. This just shows that we (Pakistanis) have forgotten why our ancestors fought and died for this country. It makes me so angry that scholars are busy issuing fatwas of kufr on each other and are not spreading the true message of Islam. People know why they belong to one sect and why the others sects are Wrong, but they don't know how we are supposed to live our life, how to treat others, how to respect people's rights. May Allah Guide Us All. Ameen.

[Intrepid]

Asslamo Allaikum,

A Sister was taken to Pakistan and forced into a marriage. On the wedding video she is clearly saying on Camera that she does not want to get married to this man (in plain English & her Native langauge) while the hired Maulvi continues with the Nikah in front of the witnesses.

She repeats it more then once. This isn't about divorce because in my humble opinion she isn't even married. Her Nikah can't be valid, can it?

Well If she doesn't consent then how is that marriage?

I don't know as I haven't seen the wedding video but it most probably isn't a maulvi reading the nikah. They have a prescribed or set nikah readers per a community or a locality. He is neither a qualified alim nor has any nor has any great knowledge of Islam (not though you need any to read nikah). Anyways, its customary for him to read it and if anyone should read it in his place all hell breaks lose. He is also paid handsomely for it.

I remember a friend of my, who is an imaam, telling me about an incident he attended where they literally bound the female up and beat her to her pulp, whilst having her nikah read, so that she would consent.

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum,

One of the things to ask now is: What recourse does the lady have in this case?

For example: If all those present give witness saying that actually the lady HAS given consent to the marriage, then isn't the marriage valid even if the sister says she did not consent?

[Rifai]

Assalamu Alaykum,

Since there seems to be video recording of the event, that should be taken into consideration. The marriage is not valid.

Allahu alam

wassalam

[sudoku]

The marriage is not valid.

Allahu alam

:salam:

Though you did mentioned Allahu Alam in the end, it'd be wiser if you didn't say the above quote as a fact, at least without some proof.

I mentioned the same thing about a video being proof to my husband, though he replied that a video can be doctored, and so it would not be taken as rock solid proof in the sight of a qadhi.

As for the issue, I have an opinion but will refrain from mentioning it since I'm not 100% sure.

[Rifai]

Assalamu Alaykum,

The very essence of the marriage is one of invalidity. Yes, a video can be doctored, but the video will be taken into consideration and examined. An expert in this field would easily detect any forgery, unless done by professional forgers.

wassalam

[Nomadic]

Bismillah,
This is quiet a common practice particularly true if the region is mirpur or jelam. These people rarely have any knowldge of shariah let alone social acceptable norm. In hanafi fiqh , silence is given as conscent keeping in mind women out of modesty in some parts of the world remain silence hence it is understood to be her consent unless verbally expressed. Many people may not understand this social noarm due to in living in the west where everything has to be explictly expressed. i do not wish to sterotype, but scholars from major institue should publicise this. Mufti Taqi uthamani tried to do something in this regard but the issue was sidelined by the authority. Also know that not all are scholars often they go through the motion.
One other side issue I remember one Bangali guy telling me that his friend held a postion of an imam when he knew very little of deen. This happend in UK. So why are we surprised to hear this happending over in Pakistan.

[Ansari]

In hanafi fiqh as well malaki fiqh, silence is given as conscent.

Not in Maliki Fiqh. She can be given away by her father without her consent.

[confusedmuslim]

:salam:

I believe it's in Hanafi and Hanbali fiqh where she can't be forced to marry without consent.

[DefendingIslam]

Not in Maliki Fiqh. She can be given away by her father without her consent.

But in a case of Maliki Fiqh, would the marriage still be valid, seeing that the woman is actively rejecting to marry this person, not merely being silent, etc.

[TruthHood]

Not in Maliki Fiqh. She can be given away by her father without her consent.

:salam:

This is the base ruling of the matter while it is highly recommended (Mandub) that the Father gets consent from his daughter. Only the Father has the right to exercise this right in the Madhhab.

[Rifai]

Obviously this can not be be used as an excuse for non-Malikis to marry off their daughters against their will.

[Intrepid]

Not in Maliki Fiqh. She can be given away by her father without her consent.

I knew that a women needed a the consent of a guardian in marriage, but the fact that she can be married without her consent is astonishing. Is this true? Surely the ruling must be more complex than this and pertain to a certain criteria, otherwise your saying forced marriages are acceptable in Maliki Fiqh.

[Rifai]

I knew that a women needed a the consent of a guardian in marriage, but the fact that she can be married without her consent is astonishing. Is this true? Surely the ruling must be more complex than this and pertain to a certain criteria, otherwise your saying forced marriages are acceptable in Maliki Fiqh.

This is what it seems after my very limited studies of Maliki fiqh.
I am yet to see their reasoning behind it though.

[hope1]

Assalamu alaikum,
Yes it seems in madhabs other than Hanafi forced marriage would be allowed. Once a brother from Yemen told me that there were many cases in Saudi or Yemen (don't remember) where women complained to the qadi that they were unable to get married because the mahr was too high. At this I got confused and asked that if the mahr was too high they why didn't they just reduce the mahr. Then it became clear as the brother explained that in their fiqh the father determines the mahr as well as acceptance/rejection in marriage (for the woman).

[confusedmuslim]

Assalamu alaikum,
Yes it seems in madhabs other than Hanafi forced marriage would be allowed. Once a brother from Yemen told me that there were many cases in Saudi or Yemen (don't remember) where women complained to the qadi that they were unable to get married because the mahr was too high. At this I got confused and asked that if the mahr was too high they why didn't they just reduce the mahr. Then it became clear as the brother explained that in their fiqh the father determines the mahr as well as acceptance/rejection in marriage (for the woman).

:ws:

It has to be Yemen, according to scholars in Saudi, forced marriage isn't allowed. I remember reading an article where it discussed this issue, it pointed out that according to Abu Hanifah and other scholars, the father can't simply give her away wile Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'i, and others differed. I think it was an excerpt from a book, it came to the conclusion that the more correct view is that the girl may not be forced.

[DefendingIslam]

Once a brother from Yemen told me that there were many cases in Saudi or Yemen (don't remember) where women complained to the qadi that they were unable to get married because the mahr was too high. At this I got confused and asked that if the mahr was too high they why didn't they just reduce the mahr. Then it became clear as the brother explained that in their fiqh the father determines the mahr as well as acceptance/rejection in marriage (for the woman).

I know that in many Muslim families the Mahr is not the girl's at all, but is rather given to the bride's family while the girl gets no share of it. So the high Mahr may be a way for the father to buy time until a richer man comes for his daughter's hand.

But if this is known to be the case, why isn't the acceptance of marriage and the ammouont of mahr handed over to the girl/lady herself in the Fiqhs that allow marriage without consent?

[hope1]

But if this is known to be the case, why isn't the acceptance of marriage and the ammouont of mahr handed over to the girl/lady herself in the Fiqhs that allow marriage without consent?
Salaams,
I didn't get what you meant.

[DefendingIslam]

What is means is that:

If it is known that fathers normally raise the Mahr of their daughters in order to get a portion of it for themselves, then how can this man be the ONLY one who decides who his daughter is going to marry, even to the point of not asking his daughter about her opinion.

Is there a mechanism to shift some of the responsibility over to the daughter, so taht she can make up her mind as to how much mahr she wants, and who she wishes to marry?

[KeepTheGazeDown]

:salam:

It is not appropriate to say that a certain madhab allows forced marriages. Since each madhab provides the relelvant daleels. A more appropriate terms is the guardian or father is vested the responsibility of marring the girl to a suitable match.

Hence, please be careful with terms used.

:ws:

[Rifai]

:salam:

It is not appropriate to say that a certain madhab allows forced marriages. Since each madhab provides the relelvant daleels. A more appropriate terms is the guardian or father is vested the responsibility of marring the girl to a suitable match.

Hence, please be careful with terms used.

:ws:

Assalamu Alaykum,

Well, if someone can force a woman to marry someone against her will, then this is a forced marriage. This is what forced marriage means. If one agrees with this ruling, then why doesn't the person have the stomach to say, "Yes I support forced marriages", when that is what they do.

wassalam

[KeepTheGazeDown]

Assalamu Alaykum,

Well, if someone can force a woman to marry someone against her will, then this is a forced marriage. This is what forced marriage means. If one agrees with this ruling, then why doesn't the person have the stomach to say, "Yes I support forced marriages", when that is what they do.

wassalam

:salam:

I am talking about saying that the madhabs permit forced marriages. That is not correct. The issue at the start of this thread was a forced marriage which is incorrect. However, there were comments mentioning that the maliki madhab permits forced marriages which is not an appropriate term to use.

:ws:

[Abdullah Ali al Hanafi]

:salam:

I am talking about saying that the madhabs permit forced marriages. That is not correct. The issue at the start of this thread was a forced marriage which is incorrect. However, there were comments mentioning that the maliki madhab permits forced marriages which is not an appropriate term to use.

:ws:

Forced Marriages
Shaykh ul-Islaam ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullaah
Fatwaa from 'Al-Masaa’il ul-Maardeeniyyah', Translated by Abu 'Abdillaah Muhammad al-Jibaalee - Hudaa, November 1995


May a father force his virgin daughter who attained puberty to marry?

Two well-known opinions in this regard are reported from Ahmad:
That he may compel her. This is also the opinion of Maalik, ash-Shaafi'ee, and others.
That he may not. This is also the opinion of Abu Haneefah and others, and is the correct one.

People have differed as tot he reason permitting the compulsion: whether it is virginity, the daughter being under-aged, or a combination of both. The closest opinion to the truth is her being under-aged, whereas no one can compel a grown-up virgin in marriage. Abu Hurayrah, radhiallahu 'anhu reported that the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Thus the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, prohibits forcing a virgin in marriage without her permission, whether it be her father or someone else. Furthermore, 'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

This applies to the father as well as others. Furthermore, Islaam does not give the father the right to use any of her wealth without her permission, how then could he be allowed to decide, without her permission, how her body (which is more important than her wealth) is to be used, specially when she disagrees to that and is mature to decide for herself?

Also, there is evidence and consensus in Islaam to restrict an underage person’s free control of his wealth or person. However, to make a virginity a reason for the restriction contradicts the Islaamic basis.

As for the difference between the non-virgin and virgin in the hadeeth of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, it is not a differentiation between compulsion and non-compulsion; the difference between the two cases is that

(a) the former gives her instructions for the marriage whereas the latter gives permission, and that

(b) the virgin’s silence counts as a permission.

The reason for this is that a virgin would be shy to discuss the matter of marriage, so she is not proposed to directly; rather, her walee (guardian) is approached, he takes her permission, and then she gives him the permission not the command to marry her. And as for a non-virgin, she would not have the shyness of virginity anymore; thus she can discuss the matter of her marriage, she can be proposed to, and she gives the command to her walee to perform the marriage, and he must obey her.

Thus the walee is command-executor in the case of the non-virgin, and is permission-seeker in the case of the virgin. This is what the Prophet's words indicate.

As for compelling her to marry despite her loathing to do so, this would contradict the fundamentals and reason. Allaah ta'ala did not permit a walee to force her to sell or rent her property without her permission. Neither did He permit him to force her to eat or drink or wear that which she does not wish. How would He then oblige her to accompany and copulate with a person whose company she hates - at the time when Allaah ta'ala has sent between the two spouses love and mercy? If such company happens despite her hatred and repulsion, where is the love and mercy?

[Rifai]

:salam:

I am talking about saying that the madhabs permit forced marriages. That is not correct. The issue at the start of this thread was a forced marriage which is incorrect. However, there were comments mentioning that the maliki madhab permits forced marriages which is not an appropriate term to use.

:ws:

If it is a forced marriage it is. No point beating around the bush, let's call a spade a spade. If it's allowed to force ones daughter or grand daughter into marriage, then this is a forced marriage as it is forcing someone in to marriage. It's a term describing the situation very well.

Now if we say that this is acceptable, then we say that forced marriages are acceptable, end of story. Now that might not go down very well with some people, but it is what it is.

Or can you clarify why we should not use this language?

wassalam

[KeepTheGazeDown]

If it is a forced marriage it is. No point beating around the bush, let's call a spade a spade. If it's allowed to force ones daughter or grand daughter into marriage, then this is a forced marriage as it is forcing someone in to marriage. It's a term describing the situation very well.

Now if we say that this is acceptable, then we say that forced marriages are acceptable, end of story. Now that might not go down very well with some people, but it is what it is.

Or can you clarify why we should not use this language?

wassalam

:salam:

In every ruling of sharia there is hikmah. Hence, if there are such rulings it could be based on several reasons e.g women are emotional hence having the father have a say in the matter may lead to a more encompassing decision. Hence to say a ruling of sharia encourages forced marriages is wrong. Ofcourse according to ahnaaf the lady can get married without permission of the father hence I follow that ruling.

We should not use such terms for sharia even if our puny little brains cant understand it.

:ws:

[KeepTheGazeDown]

Forced Marriages
Shaykh ul-Islaam ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullaah
Fatwaa from 'Al-Masaa’il ul-Maardeeniyyah', Translated by Abu 'Abdillaah Muhammad al-Jibaalee - Hudaa, November 1995


May a father force his virgin daughter who attained puberty to marry?

Two well-known opinions in this regard are reported from Ahmad:
That he may compel her. This is also the opinion of Maalik, ash-Shaafi'ee, and others.
That he may not. This is also the opinion of Abu Haneefah and others, and is the correct one.

People have differed as tot he reason permitting the compulsion: whether it is virginity, the daughter being under-aged, or a combination of both. The closest opinion to the truth is her being under-aged, whereas no one can compel a grown-up virgin in marriage. Abu Hurayrah, radhiallahu 'anhu reported that the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Thus the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, prohibits forcing a virgin in marriage without her permission, whether it be her father or someone else. Furthermore, 'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

This applies to the father as well as others. Furthermore, Islaam does not give the father the right to use any of her wealth without her permission, how then could he be allowed to decide, without her permission, how her body (which is more important than her wealth) is to be used, specially when she disagrees to that and is mature to decide for herself?

Also, there is evidence and consensus in Islaam to restrict an underage person’s free control of his wealth or person. However, to make a virginity a reason for the restriction contradicts the Islaamic basis.

As for the difference between the non-virgin and virgin in the hadeeth of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, it is not a differentiation between compulsion and non-compulsion; the difference between the two cases is that

(a) the former gives her instructions for the marriage whereas the latter gives permission, and that

(b) the virgin’s silence counts as a permission.

The reason for this is that a virgin would be shy to discuss the matter of marriage, so she is not proposed to directly; rather, her walee (guardian) is approached, he takes her permission, and then she gives him the permission not the command to marry her. And as for a non-virgin, she would not have the shyness of virginity anymore; thus she can discuss the matter of her marriage, she can be proposed to, and she gives the command to her walee to perform the marriage, and he must obey her.

Thus the walee is command-executor in the case of the non-virgin, and is permission-seeker in the case of the virgin. This is what the Prophet's words indicate.

As for compelling her to marry despite her loathing to do so, this would contradict the fundamentals and reason. Allaah ta'ala did not permit a walee to force her to sell or rent her property without her permission. Neither did He permit him to force her to eat or drink or wear that which she does not wish. How would He then oblige her to accompany and copulate with a person whose company she hates - at the time when Allaah ta'ala has sent between the two spouses love and mercy? If such company happens despite her hatred and repulsion, where is the love and mercy?

:salam:

Your profile says hanafi so why post like a pseudo-salafi?.

:ws:

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Why do people get so hung up on symantics when it is so clear that we descirbe the same thing? If a man in any of the mathaahib, who is a wali or father of the girl can compel her to marry someone even though she: 1) has not given her consent (which to me is best case) or 2) does not want to get married and is put into the marriage contract without her consent or agreement (which is worst case), this is a either an unconsented to or compelled marriage.

I know that every hukm of the shariah has hikma behind; I am certain of it. That is why yes in some cases, this would seem good. Meaning: if the fater or wali is an upright pious and godfearing man he will want the best for his daughter's dini life first and secondly her dunyawi life. This I can clearly see would be good and wise, and I'm sure if the father/wali married the girl to a pious and upright man who would fulfill her rights, then she probably would have zero issue with her father's choice. I guess this is the best and perfect scenerio, and in this case it is clearly good and everybody would benefit from it.

But the fact is, not all fathers/walis look at it in this way. Some marry their daughters off for cultural reasons, or worldly benefit, etc. They marry their daughters to men who are not pious at all, maybe they are wealthy, professionals, etc. This is when the picture becomes more ugly and it is an obvious abuse of the shariah.

So let us pretend that the majority of fathers marry off their daughters in the right way for the right reasons to the right man, without consulting with their daughters (which is allowed). Now even in this case, some of the daughters may just not want to get married to those men, so her only way then is khula (as far as I understand) and khula requires a valid excuse. So would her simple dislike of her chosen husband be enough, even though he may not abuse her or leave in poverty, etc, or would she have to live with that man for rest of her life and learn to like him? Sometimes even two good people just can't get along for whatever reason. What wold happen in that situation?

So now lets pretend that some of the fathers marry them off in the right way but for the wrongs reasons and to the wrong man. What if he is not religious, doesn't care about her din; or if he is religious, what if he is just mean and harsh. What would she do then? More importantly, what safe guards does the shariah set down to make sure that those things don't happen? Is the father held to any account or punishment?

These are just things I'd like to know, since the zahir of those hadith that were posted:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Thus the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, prohibits forcing a virgin in marriage without her permission, whether it be her father or someone else. Furthermore, 'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Seem to be crystal clear. What are the dala'il that are used against those ahadith, which in their zahir seem to indicate that its not allowed at all?

I'm not asking to cause fitna, just clarify, because I and many people muslims I have talked to have been under the impression that any type of nikah without the consent and permission of the girl or guy is simply not allowed.

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum,

I just want to show this, which is a repsonse at sunnipath from brother Salman Younas:


This shows that the guardian cannot force an adult woman - whether a virgin or not - into marriage and thus does not have wilayat al ijbar, contrary to what the Shafi` school states that the virgin adult can be forced into marriage.

So the word ijbar and force are used to describe the Shafi' school. I am not saying it is wrong, but that it needs some explanation as to its conditions, etc.

[KeepTheGazeDown]

Salaam,

Why do people get so hung up on symantics when it is so clear that we descirbe the same thing? If a man in any of the mathaahib, who is a wali or father of the girl can compel her to marry someone even though she: 1) has not given her consent (which to me is best case) or 2) does not want to get married and is put into the marriage contract without her consent or agreement (which is worst case), this is a either an unconsented to or compelled marriage.

I know that every hukm of the shariah has hikma behind; I am certain of it. That is why yes in some cases, this would seem good. Meaning: if the fater or wali is an upright pious and godfearing man he will want the best for his daughter's dini life first and secondly her dunyawi life. This I can clearly see would be good and wise, and I'm sure if the father/wali married the girl to a pious and upright man who would fulfill her rights, then she probably would have zero issue with her father's choice. I guess this is the best and perfect scenerio, and in this case it is clearly good and everybody would benefit from it.

But the fact is, not all fathers/walis look at it in this way. Some marry their daughters off for cultural reasons, or worldly benefit, etc. They marry their daughters to men who are not pious at all, maybe they are wealthy, professionals, etc. This is when the picture becomes more ugly and it is an obvious abuse of the shariah.

So let us pretend that the majority of fathers marry off their daughters in the right way for the right reasons to the right man, without consulting with their daughters (which is allowed). Now even in this case, some of the daughters may just not want to get married to those men, so her only way then is khula (as far as I understand) and khula requires a valid excuse. So would her simple dislike of her chosen husband be enough, even though he may not abuse her or leave in poverty, etc, or would she have to live with that man for rest of her life and learn to like him? Sometimes even two good people just can't get along for whatever reason. What wold happen in that situation?

So now lets pretend that some of the fathers marry them off in the right way but for the wrongs reasons and to the wrong man. What if he is not religious, doesn't care about her din; or if he is religious, what if he is just mean and harsh. What would she do then? More importantly, what safe guards does the shariah set down to make sure that those things don't happen? Is the father held to any account or punishment?

These are just things I'd like to know, since the zahir of those hadith that were posted:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Thus the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, prohibits forcing a virgin in marriage without her permission, whether it be her father or someone else. Furthermore, 'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

Seem to be crystal clear. What are the dala'il that are used against those ahadith, which in their zahir seem to indicate that its not allowed at all?

I'm not asking to cause fitna, just clarify, because I and many people muslims I have talked to have been under the impression that any type of nikah without the consent and permission of the girl or guy is simply not allowed.

:salam:

You are confusing and mixing different issues together.

The term forced marriages was used when talking about the ruling of a madhab. Hence, when talking about sharia that term is not appropriate.

As for what happens in the world today, my points are not based on that.

I hope this clears the issue up.

You have another part where dalaail are asked for, I would strongly advise not to look for dalaaleel on forums, rather to go to a scholar and understand the matter clearly.

:ws:

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Perhaps I am mixing issues together, but they are all very inter-linked and obviously they have to come up in such a disscusion. I don't think I mixed up any irelevant issues, but I could be wrong.

As far as your points, I understood that they were not really reffering to whats happening today, and that is fine. I want to hear how things were when things were better. But the reality, we are here today, and the problems stem up from the issues I was speaking about. No problems come from what you mentioned, as your points were the ideal setting. So my concern is not how would it workout in the ideal setting, since it would work out ideally. Rather, we know that things are far from perfect and motives are often not pure and in this people take advantage of the shariah and act cruelly, all the while staying 'technecally' ok. I just want to know some of the safeguards in the shariah for when the settings are not ideal.

As far as the term 'forced marriage' goes, I don't really know what the problem is with it, maybe you just don't think it sounds nice or something. If you do have some reason why the term should not be used, you could share it. 'Compelled marriage' doesn't seem any more nice or respectful. So what would you call it then (anybody)? I personally think it is clear, and if it is in the shariah, it is good, even if we can't understand it.

As far as 'ulama, if I lived near them I would definately ask; as I do not, I can not. I send email to fatwa websites and I don't get any responses. I though that this forum was set up and monitered by ulama, so I assumed that they could provide input on the disscussion. I didn't mean that you had to give me dalail, rather people who had them should give them.

[KeepTheGazeDown]

Salaam,

Perhaps I am mixing issues together, but they are all very inter-linked and obviously they have to come up in such a disscusion. I don't think I mixed up any irelevant issues, but I could be wrong.

As far as your points, I understood that they were not really reffering to whats happening today, and that is fine. I want to hear how things were when things were better. But the reality, we are here today, and the problems stem up from the issues I was speaking about. No problems come from what you mentioned, as your points were the ideal setting. So my concern is not how would it workout in the ideal setting, since it would work out ideally. Rather, we know that things are far from perfect and motives are often not pure and in this people take advantage of the shariah and act cruelly, all the while staying 'technecally' ok. I just want to know some of the safeguards in the shariah for when the settings are not ideal.

As far as the term 'forced marriage' goes, I don't really know what the problem is with it, maybe you just don't think it sounds nice or something. If you do have some reason why the term should not be used, you could share it. 'Compelled marriage' doesn't seem any more nice or respectful. So what would you call it then (anybody)? I personally think it is clear, and if it is in the shariah, it is good, even if we can't understand it.

As far as 'ulama, if I lived near them I would definately ask; as I do not, I can not. I send email to fatwa websites and I don't get any responses. I though that this forum was set up and monitered by ulama, so I assumed that they could provide input on the disscussion. I didn't mean that you had to give me dalail, rather people who had them should give them.

:salam:

What are the questions. Give them in order.

:ws:

[Rifai]

:salam:

In every ruling of sharia there is hikmah. Hence, if there are such rulings it could be based on several reasons e.g women are emotional hence having the father have a say in the matter may lead to a more encompassing decision. Hence to say a ruling of sharia encourages forced marriages is wrong. Ofcourse according to ahnaaf the lady can get married without permission of the father hence I follow that ruling.

We should not use such terms for sharia even if our puny little brains cant understand it.

:ws:

I still dont see why you wanna play with words. I ask again, what's wrong with calling it a forced marriage if that is what it is? Why do you find it offensive?
Yes, even if there is hikma behind it, it doesn't change it being a forced marriage.

And im not saying Shari'ah encourages it, because even in the Maliki madhab its encouraged to ask the woman.

wassalam

[vagabond]

The question is with regards to marrying a virgin off without her consent, or even against her consent. That is, by definition, a forced marriage. And, that may be permitted in some madaahib. However, just because something has a legal effect does not mean that one "supports" forced marriages. For example, if one were to divorce his wife on a whim with no reason, the shariah allows for that and there is no real legal recourse for the woman. It doesn't mean that the man will not be sinful, nor does it mean that it is encouraged ... it just means that this world was not meant to be perfectly just. Doesn't sound fair? Well, only if you don't believe in an afterlife.

Just recognize there is a difference the enforceable law (the external shariah), and the reward or punishment a person earns (i.e. whether something is encouraged or not). There may be things which a person can get away with within the constraints of publicly enforceable divine law in this world, yet be punished for the same in the hereafter.

[HaajiMahjubi]

The question is simple: What are the opinions of the four mathaahib about the woman consenting for marriage? Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway.

1. Is this jaiz?
2. Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant.
3. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?
4. If it is allowed, what is the daleel for it?
5. If it is allowed how are the following ahadith reconciled with the ruling:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

6. If it is allowed, what safeguards are there to ensure that this ruling is not abused?

I would like to know the answers to these questions regarding both the baligh and the non-baligh, as if the father can marry them without consent, it doesnot matter their age/status, or am I wrong on this? I want the answers for the 4 mathaabs on this issue.

Once the ruling has been clearly established as being either jaiz or not, I want to know:

7. what the girl can do if she wants to get out of the marriage.

8. If Khula is her only option, would her simply not wanting to be married to that person be enough reason for her to present her case?

9. Also, if she is married to that person without her consent and she does not want to marry that person, would she be compelled to have sexual intercourse with her spouse and would she be considered sinful if she refused? (I am saying she and her because usually the issue is the rights of the woman and I don't see many issues of men bein forced to marry against their will).

I want it to be clear to everybody that I am not saying one thing or the other; if it is jaiz to marry a woman to someone without her consent I will consider that the truth. I am NOT saying it is wrong, because if it has been established in the Shari'ah by the ulama, then it is haqq. I am pointing out however that on this topic there is ALOT of confusions, as most muslims believe that NO ONE can marry off someone with out their consent and approval and permission. If this is false, it should be rectified as soon as possible, because I personally have had a lot of discussions with non-muslims (giving them da'wah) and have compared the marriage practice as found in the Bible to what I thought was true based on the hadith that seem clear (plus its what someone told me that made me impressed with Islam). If I gave da'wah to these people using falsehood, I need to be corrected and I need to correct my understanding of Islam.

These questions can be forwarded to any 'alim for answers if brothers don't know the answers. But since brother KeeptheGazeDown asked what my questions were, I assume he has some knowledge of this issue.

REQUEST TO THE ULAMA ON THE FORUM: I humbly ask that if any of you have the time to answer these question (with or without great detail), it would be very much appreciated. We all have alot of respect for you and you are our leaders. There seems to be a lot of interest in these topics as hundreds of people have viewed this thread alone and many similar threads have been recently posted on the forum. Jazakallah khair and may Allah ta'ala reward you unendingly for your astounding services to the ummah and to this din.

[HaajiMahjubi]

:)like to hear from you

[HaajiMahjubi]

anyone........? :)

[KeepTheGazeDown]

anyone........? :)

:salam:

Insha-Allah ill answer it tomorrow, im abit busy today.

:ws:

[HaajiMahjubi]

I look forward to your input :)

[KeepTheGazeDown]

The question is simple: What are the opinions of the four mathaahib about the woman consenting for marriage? Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway.

1. Is this jaiz?
2. Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant.
3. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?
4. If it is allowed, what is the daleel for it?
5. If it is allowed how are the following ahadith reconciled with the ruling:

"A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and enough permission for her is to remain silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

'Aa'ishah, radhiallahu 'anhaa, said that she asked the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied, "Yes, she must give her permission." She then said, "But a virgin will be shy, O Allaah’s Messenger." He answered: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission." [Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, and others]

6. If it is allowed, what safeguards are there to ensure that this ruling is not abused?

I would like to know the answers to these questions regarding both the baligh and the non-baligh, as if the father can marry them without consent, it doesnot matter their age/status, or am I wrong on this? I want the answers for the 4 mathaabs on this issue.

Once the ruling has been clearly established as being either jaiz or not, I want to know:

7. what the girl can do if she wants to get out of the marriage.

8. If Khula is her only option, would her simply not wanting to be married to that person be enough reason for her to present her case?

9. Also, if she is married to that person without her consent and she does not want to marry that person, would she be compelled to have sexual intercourse with her spouse and would she be considered sinful if she refused? (I am saying she and her because usually the issue is the rights of the woman and I don't see many issues of men bein forced to marry against their will).

I want it to be clear to everybody that I am not saying one thing or the other; if it is jaiz to marry a woman to someone without her consent I will consider that the truth. I am NOT saying it is wrong, because if it has been established in the Shari'ah by the ulama, then it is haqq. I am pointing out however that on this topic there is ALOT of confusions, as most muslims believe that NO ONE can marry off someone with out their consent and approval and permission. If this is false, it should be rectified as soon as possible, because I personally have had a lot of discussions with non-muslims (giving them da'wah) and have compared the marriage practice as found in the Bible to what I thought was true based on the hadith that seem clear (plus its what someone told me that made me impressed with Islam). If I gave da'wah to these people using falsehood, I need to be corrected and I need to correct my understanding of Islam.

These questions can be forwarded to any 'alim for answers if brothers don't know the answers. But since brother KeeptheGazeDown asked what my questions were, I assume he has some knowledge of this issue.

REQUEST TO THE ULAMA ON THE FORUM: I humbly ask that if any of you have the time to answer these question (with or without great detail), it would be very much appreciated. We all have alot of respect for you and you are our leaders. There seems to be a lot of interest in these topics as hundreds of people have viewed this thread alone and many similar threads have been recently posted on the forum. Jazakallah khair and may Allah ta'ala reward you unendingly for your astounding services to the ummah and to this din.

:salam:

According to Ahnaaf:

Mature = Not Permissible; Not Mature= Permissible

I think for a mature lady the rest of your questions do not need to be answered.

As for a girl who is not mature, once she matures then she will have the choice to stay in the marriage. if she decides not to carry on with the marriage then the marriage will terminate.

As for the other mathahib there are different scenarios from what I checked up.

e.g Mature and virgin
Mature and non-virgin
Not mature and virgin etc

Hence the fatwa is given according to that. Hence it is best to ask the learned from their respective mathahib.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.