The Official Deobandi/Barelwi Thread

[AbuZayd]

Assalamu alaykum, I am sure most of us have read the article before but thought I'd post it up on this forum in any case for those who hadn't. I think Shaykh G.F. Haddad couldn't have summed it up any better. Sadly, I still see these petty arguments in our masajid and elsewhere amongst second and third generation Asian Muslims!







No Difference between

Barelwis and Deobandis



Q:


What exactly is the difference between the school

of thought that follows Ala Hadrath Ahmed Rida Khan RA

and those that follow the school of thought of

Rashid Ahmed Gangohi against whom i understand

Ala Hadrath had said that there is inherent kufr

in the nature of thought expressed but did not issue

a fatwa of Kufr, as Maulana Rashid Gangohi had passed on.

(may Allah Ta'laa forgive me if i have made a mistake )



there is a lot of ikhtiflaaf in the Indian subcontinent

on this issue and i do understand that it is extremely volatile

- but, i would request you to kindly spare sometime and answer me





A:





Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim:



There is no difference in the generalities of `Aqida and

Fiqh between Barelwis and Deobandis. They are both Sunni

Hanafis, Sufis, Ash`aris or Maturidis. One stands in need

of the best each school has to offer, as indeed hold many

of the living prestigious teachers known to both sides.



Among the best commentaries on Sahih Muslim and the Sunan of

al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud are works by the Deobandis. The

lives of the Sahaba by al-Kandihlawi is a masterpiece. I`la'

al-Sunan and Aathaar al-Sunan are very valuable. As for Imam

Ahmad Rida Khan and his works, whoever does not recognize

their worth as one of the treasures of this Umma is a blasted

nincompoop who should wear a dunce cap until he learns.



Both sides are strict Hanafis and mainstream Sufis. We do not

endorse the mistakes that anyone might have made, such as

uttering words rightly perceived to lack adab in matters

of `Aqida or contesting the legality of celebrating Mawlid.



Nor do we endorse Takfir. Demonization of the other, saying

they are munafiq is unacceptable. We leave extremism to Najd

and its minions. Come together. Sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-

Maliki advised you to do so, Sayyid Yusuf al-Rifa`i advised

you, Shaykh `Abd al-Hadi Kharsa advised you, Sayyid Ya`qubi,

Dr. al-Nass, others... Do you think you stand for the honor of

Allah and His Prophet more than such as these? Think again.



When the situation is such that there is mutual avoidance at

mosques, gatherings, etc. then it becomes wajib for every true

and sincere Deobandi should seek out his counterparts among

Barelwis and for every true and sincere Barelwi to seek out

his counterparts among Deobandis, pray together, learn from

one another, give salam, and increase love. Disunity is sin.

Or are you afraid you will lose reputation or funding? Shame.



Here is the resting-place of Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir Gilani and

Imam Abu Hanifa bracing for another Mongoloid onslaught. Will

you Sunnis still be debating and anathematizing one another

because of who said what as the Hour rises? Stressing ikhtilaf

and schism is from Shaytan. If this is what the general public

chooses to follow, it is their loss even as they shout ALLAHU

AKBAR and YA RASULALLAH from God's dawn to the wee hours. Salam.



Hajj Gibril

Shawwal 1423/December 2002

GF Haddad

2002-12-10

[Goldi]

There was also a lengthy fatwa by Mufti Ibn Adam I think. Both very relevant.

[AbuZayd]

Oh yeah, the Milaad one.

[Goldi]

Personally, I'd like us to leave these things back in desi land. I mean seriously, can we stop with the pointless divisions already?

[Hard2Hit]

Assalamu Alaikum


Personally, I'd like us to leave these things back in desi land. I mean seriously, can we stop with the pointless divisions already?


I have this friend living in Sydney AUS. He was telling me the other day that a "paki" imam and an "indonesian" imam have declared each other kafir.

The news was all over australian newspapers.

[Goldi]

Assalamu Alaikum




I have this friend living in Sydney AUS. He was telling me the other day that a "paki" imam and an "indonesian" imam have declared each other kafir.

The news was all over australian newspapers.

Apart from the fact that Australia is a pretty screwed up place to live, lets try to keep the irrelevant information to ourselves.

JAK

[Hard2Hit]

Assalamu Alaikum


Apart from the fact that Australia is a pretty screwed up place to live, lets try to keep the irrelevant information to ourselves.

JAK


I can see now that ur a moderator but u see that info "was" relevant. The point was that some ppl really need to "grow up" (a hint there) coz those imams were declaring each other kafir as one was prolly brelvi and the other deobandi (allahu alim)

So yeah, we should cut this "deobandi vs brelvi" drama and "grow up"

JAK 2

[Goldi]

Assalamu Alaikum




I can see now that ur a moderator but u see that info "was" relevant. The point was that some ppl really need to "grow up" (a hint there) coz those imams were declaring each other kafir as one was prolly brelvi and the other deobandi (allahu alim)

So yeah, we should cut this "deobandi vs brelvi" drama and "grow up"

JAK 2

You're 'prolly' right.

my bad.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

i do not wish to add fuel to the fire, but i do believe that there is grave misunderstandings on both sides of the debate.

what i have noticed though is that the deobandi movement is 'opening' up, with many of the scholars openly ackowledging tasawwuf, and many of its students seeking the spiritual path, even through tariqa.

yes, there are 'issues' with the barelwi movement too, but i believe the issues to be centred around priorities of both groups. The barelwi's are in effect a tariqa, and thats what they 'promote' hence many muslims are averse to their ways. the deobandi group is more 'puritanical' in that sense... however, i do believe things will change with the following generations.

After all if Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi al-Hanafi can unite all the hanafi's under one roof, i don't see what the problem should be.

[Muawiyah]

Tasawwuf not a problem at all. The Deobandi ulama have always openly accepted Tasawwuf. The most important matter of difference (in my view) is that we don't believe that ambiyaa and awliyaa can percieve equally from near and far.

[AbuZayd]

The most important matter of difference (in my view) is that we don't believe that ambiyaa and awliyaa can percieve equally from near and far.


Could you elaborate on this Akhi?

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

Berelvis beleive that RasoolAllah (saw) can hear us when we call to him and ask him for help. However, what differentiates them from others is that they say that it is not necessary that we must be at RasoolAllah's grave to hear us, but that we can be at the other side of the earth and Rasoolallah (saw) will hear us as if w were in front of him. This ability of hearing is one of the characterisitics of RasoolAllah (saw) being haazir wa naazir, according to berelvis.

wASalam

[AbuZayd]

I am not a Barelwi but I always thought that, for example, Rasul Allah saw answers our Salaam whether we be at his side or in the U.K. ?

[Abu Usama]

Yes, that is our (Sunni) belief. Others say that the angels carry the salams to RasoolAllah (saw) (as there are hadith to back this up). Or so I am told. Allahu A'lam.

[Muawiyah]

There are many ahadeeth that show that salaams from afar are CONVEYED to Rasoolullah Sallalaahu 'alyhi wa Sallam


إن لله ملائكة سياحين في الأرض يبلغوني من أمتي السلام
[رواه النسائي بحوالہ ضرب المهند]


Verily Allah has some angels who tour the earth bringing to me the salutations of my ummah


من صلى علي عند قبري سمعته ومن صلى علي نائياً ابلغته
[رواه البهيقي في شعب الايمان بحوالہ ضرب المهند]

One who offers salutation at my grave, I hear and one who offers salutation from afar it (his salutation) is conveyed to me


إن خير أيامكم يوم الجمعة ……… فأكثروا علي من الصلٰوة فيه فإن صلٰوتكم معروضة علي
………
[ابو داؤد، نسائي، ابن ماجة بحوالہ ضرب المهند]

Verily the best of your days is the day of Jumu'ah .... so increase in it, your salutations upon me for your salutations are presented to me...

[AbuZayd]

Assalamu alaykum,

So according to the Deobandis Rasul Allah saw can only hear you if you are next to his grave and the Barelwis say he saw can hear us anywhere?

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

the best thing to do would be ask a deobandi 'alim.

however i would recommend one read 'the prophets in barzakh' by al-sayyid muhammad 'alawi al-maliki.

i believe Shaykh GF Haddad has translated it....

[Ansari]

I came across this sunni site that insults the deobandi ulema:

http://www.ahle-sunnat.org.uk/SATSCH3.html

They're bashing deobandi's:


The fact that the Wahhabi\Deobandi\Tablighi group is misguided goes without saying. The only question that remains is how we should treat this misguided group. What better example could there be to solve this problem then that of the Holy Prophet(Sallal Laahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) himself.

A misguided site?

[Muawiyah]

oh don't worry, this is fake Hussaam ul Haramayn stuff, it has been answered nearly a century ago.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

you know these kind of sites really do infuriate me. I come from a berelvi background and walahi i have tried to examine the beliefs and practises, but then they come out with all of this kayrap and I just go more and more away from them. Maybe somebody should tell them that thier baatil slander against the ulema al-haqq is driving people away, not just from berelvi-ism, but from ahlus sunnah completely.


So yes, it is a misguided site.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

my 'problem' with the barelwi's is that they see certain issues as fard, and if one were not to believe in it, one becomes a kafir.. this is a huge mistake. examples include:

1. milad an-nabi

2. hadhir and nadhir (as sidi faraz rabbani said, it is not an issue which you find in classical aqida texts)

3. tawassul - which is a fiqh issue, and it is not obligatory at all to believe in it.

HOWEVER, i do prefer the 'tasawwuf' side of things from the barelwis.

i have one question for the deobandi's:

why is it all the visiting ulama from the mid-east end up at barelwi masaajid and not deobandi? Yes, it is a generalisation, but its definitely a pattern - no doubt about it.

[GenN]

as salamu alaykum

why is it all the visiting ulama from the mid-east end up at barelwi masaajid and not deobandi? Yes, it is a generalisation, but its definitely a pattern - no doubt about it.

simple answer to that is becasue usually the scholars go upon invitation, the breawleis dont really have any scholars that i know of (perhaps reasonbaly knowledge brothers but not ulama except for a very few perhaps) infact a lot of the brelvis rely on Shiekh Ahmad raza khans (RA) works or scholars from mid east whom they invite.

As for deobandis they have scholars growing on their trees so theres no need to invite extrenal schoars.

Anyway the leader of the leading shcolars of mid east, one of the mujadadids of the 20th centuray, the great sheikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda (RA) ended up with the deobandis translating much of their works and becoming close friends with em.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

...that is simply not true at all. The Barelwi's have many scholars, and they regularly visit the UK.

The Deobandi's also need to realise there is more outside Deoband

[GenN]

they do :confused: i never heard of any or come across any, please mention some names and where they can be found, the only ones i hear coming to Uk from all the brelvi masjids are shuyukh like Gf hadda, Sheikh yaoubi and so on who are not exactly brelvi are they. I dont understand how i can possibly hear of these scholars soming to the brelvi mosques but not the brelvi scholars themselves.

[GenN]

as salamu alaykum



The Deobandi's also need to realise there is more outside Deoband

such as? (even though they do refer to scholars outseide deoband but i just wanna see what exactly your trying to get a here.)

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

what i am saying is that the deobandi's appear to be a little distanced from the ahl al-sunna scholars from outside India and Pakistan.. that is evidenced by the scholars most of the time coming to the barelwi masajid. This is also evidenced by the fact that the ahl al-sunna scholars from the mid-east have close ties with barelwi's in the subcontinent (albeit with the deobandi's to a lesser extent). e.g. mawlid celebrations are nearly always in barelwi masjids

Regarding the scholars from Barelwi background visiting the UK, there are loads, not famous but are always around. The most famous would be Prof. Tahir ul-Qadri and the scholars of the Minhaj al-qur'an movement which are in the plentiful. Also the dawat-e-islami group as well. I can link you to a website if you want to know names, but you probably won't recognise any of their names.

[GenN]

you are mistaken shkys pir. Deobandis dont hold mawlid becsue it has become a huge bidah in the indian subcontient due to ignorance of peopel. Ask any scholar you know and they will tell you tha with such rulings the scholars of a particular place may calssify a certina act bidah, and in another sitauion as permissbale. In the Indian subcontient mawlid HAS to be classified a bidah, which you would nderstand if you knew the relaity of what peopl get up to on mawlid in the indian sub contient. However th brelwis have failed to comprehend this about the mawlid and hence continue it, and so the brelvis do much other bidahs also (which in another palce or another time would not be biadh)

As for exteranl scholars then they may not be full aware of the reality of the country either and hence they get invitred by brelwis and so they go.

Anyway like is says one of the best if not the best of the best scholars mid east has produced this century Sheikh Abdul fattah abu Guddah from mid east was very close to deobandsi translating their books for the arabs, not the brelwis. And Look at scholars like mufti taqi, whom people fro all over the world refer to. Now what scholars are there like him that the brelvis posses?

Whilst the brelvis may invite others, others invite the deobandis like mufti taqi, mudti shafi, Shiek Zakariayh and so on. :)

And why does this sound like its turning into a brelvi deobandi split?

[GenN]

Anyway io'm off to the youth tarbiyah confernce shortly inshAllah, so ill chat to you after the weekend InshAllah

and give us the brelvi link you talkin about. May Allah reward you.

was salaam.

[Abu Usama]

as salamu alaykum

my 'problem' with the barelwi's is that they see certain issues as fard, and if one were not to believe in it, one becomes a kafir.. this is a huge mistake. examples include:

1. milad an-nabi

2. hadhir and nadhir (as sidi faraz rabbani said, it is not an issue which you find in classical aqida texts)

3. tawassul - which is a fiqh issue, and it is not obligatory at all to believe in it.



Salam,

okay thats just a huge exagerration really. I am surrounded by berelvis and not a single one believes that these things are fardh and if you do not believe in them you're a kafir. And nor do thier ulema believe this.

What they say is that these are excellent things to do (not fardh) and are highly recommended because of the benefit from them. As for haazir wa naazir, they believe that it is the truth but do not say that it is a point of aqeedah (not the learned berelvis anyway).

What they do say, is that those who do not allow these things or believe in them, are "wahhabies" (as they also regard deobandis as wahhabies).

In regards to why the sunni sheikhs visit berelvi mosques, the reason is that many of the deobandi mosques are more influenced by the wahhabies. So for example, it is very rare that you see that a deobandi mosque will hold group zikr (even though the deobandi ulema have said its good).

Wasalam

[Sim]

a reliable website:

www.masud.co.uk

there is a section in which haazir naazir is discussed by Sheikh Gybrill Haddad, take a read. As is the mawlid. and i recommend Sheikh Abdul Hakim Murad's pieces, that guy is extremely intelligent.

and stay away from ***********, its just a wahabbi bashing site...doesnt really do the brelwi's any good at all.

[Yaseen]

Asalamu alaikum

the barelvis invite a lot of their scholars over. An example was last week in the Sunni conference held in brum.

They have a lot of famous scholars such as Prof Tahir Ul Qadri. He is a very learned scholar and is one of the few brelvi scholars to have work published in English. You can check it out on the follwing link: research.com.pk

He also has strong links with Sh Yusuf Hashim Al Rifai and Sh As Sayyid Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi Al Hasani who teaches for two weeks during the year at ICIS, a learning centre of Minhaj Ul Quran which Prof Tahir Ul Qadri is the leader of. Yoy can also see Sh Al Yacoubis speech on the occasion of Mawlid this year in Pakistan on the following link:
http://www.minhaj.tv/live/index.minhaj

Other scholars who come regularly are Syed Irfan shah sahib and Allama saeed Ahmed asad. The latter has succesfully held debates with ahl e hadith scholars in Pakistan on numerous occasions.

Wasalaam

[abduljalalmarabani]

Deobandis dont hold mawlid becsue it has become a huge bidah in the indian subcontient due to ignorance of peopel.

HUGE bida on the subcontinent...



Ask any scholar you know and they will tell you tha with such rulings the scholars of a particular place may calssify a certina act bidah, and in another sitauion as permissbale.

yup.....



In the Indian subcontient mawlid HAS to be classified a bidah,

So can I assume that Deobandis living in Britain are:

1) Leaving the fatwa made for the subcontinent, in the subcontinent?

2) Returning back to the original context of what is a mawlid and showing everyone in Britain how it is really supposed to be done?

or...

Are they bringing the subcontinental fatwa over to Britain, where not everyone is Indian or Pakistani, and telling everyone (including potential reverts or even those already reverted) that because "people in India throw sweets around" and "people in India put a chair in the middle" and "people in India think its fardh" ...

... that we in Britain, shouldn't do it?

But you might say "well we have tobring the same fatwa here because the bidatees have come here as well". Come on, how about showing them how it is done?

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

The Deobandi scholars are not merely confined to Deoband and the Subcontinent alone, but many of the scholars have travelled to the Arab world to teach. Perfect examples would be Shaikh Khalil and Shaikh Khandhilawi.

As regards to Haadir Wa Naazir, then first we must lay down the definition to what Haazir Wa Naazir means. Does it mean that the prophet is told of what we do? Is he physically present with us? and so forth.

Regarding Akhi Abu Usamas comment that Brelwis consider Deobands Wahabis, then it is an absurd claim by the Brelwis, backed with no proof. Neither is there Aqida same, nor is there methodology, nor are their teachers, books or institutes. This was also stated by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi when he was asked regarding such accusations.


In regards to why the sunni sheikhs visit berelvi mosques, the reason is that many of the deobandi mosques are more influenced by the wahhabies.

Really? I guess all the Wahabi criticism i see coming from Deobandi Masjids must be a coincidence.

I remember my Teacher said:

"Kuch Brelwi to Jahil hai, laikan Salafyun nei to Jahalat ko aik aur level pei pohonchadi."

It is incorrect to say, "Sunni schoalrs visit Brelwis and not Deobands," since both are Ahly Sunnah.


Are they bringing the subcontinental fatwa over to Britain, where not everyone is Indian or Pakistani, and telling everyone (including potential reverts or even those already reverted) that because "people in India throw sweets around" and "people in India put a chair in the middle" and "people in India think its fardh" ...

... that we in Britain, shouldn't do it?

I have not seen any Deobandi scholar classify the Mawlid as haram as long as it is done in the proper way. The subcontinent is a totally different story. The guidelines have been provided. Check the responses of Mufti taqi Uthmani or Shaikh Khalil.

Wallahu A'lam

[abduljalalmarabani]

I have not seen any Deobandi scholar classify the Mawlid as haram as long as it is done in the proper way. The subcontinent is a totally different story. The guidelines have been provided. Check the responses of Mufti taqi Uthmani or Shaikh Khalil.

? I thought the response of Taqi Uthmani was severely anti-mawlid ?? Maybe I read the fatwa wrongly. Anyway if you dont mind mawlid, then you overseas Deobandis must be different to the ones we have in South Africa. More than once I have seen, read and heard how "milad is great great bida'!!!!!"

yawn....

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

first of all, let me state that i am coming from neither a barelwi nor a deobandi background, and as such do have a natural affinity for either group. I hope that clarifies things brother GenN, as you seem to have gone on the defensive. That being, i shall clarify what i wrote:

<<you are mistaken shkys pir. Deobandis dont hold mawlid becsue it has become a huge bidah in the indian subcontient due to ignorance of peopel.>>

thats fine. India and Pakistan aside, we are talking about the west and perhaps the UK specifically. If the problem is as you say, the ignorance of the people, why don't the deobandi masajid hold mawlid functions which are well-scrutinisd by the ulama? This is a sincere question, not a rhetorical one!

<<Ask any scholar you know and they will tell you tha with such rulings the scholars of a particular place may calssify a certina act bidah, and in another sitauion as permissbale.>>

i understand that. Same question...

<<In the Indian subcontient mawlid HAS to be classified a bidah, which you would nderstand if you knew the relaity of what peopl get up to on mawlid in the indian sub contient.>>

This is a sweeping generilisation which i bid you to correct. Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi was recently invited to a mawlid celebration in Pakistan under the auspices of Shaykh Tahir ul-Qadri. Was this a bidah, simply because it took place in the subcontinent?

<<However th brelwis have failed to comprehend this about the mawlid and hence continue it, and so the brelvis do much other bidahs also (which in another palce or another time would not be biadh)>>

again, i am neither barelwi nor deobandi. However, as an Ashari, Maliki and striving to be a Junaidi, i would say that the Barelwi's are closer to ahl al-sunna. Thats just my opinion.


<<As for exteranl scholars then they may not be full aware of the reality of the country either and hence they get invitred by brelwis and so they go.>>

I think Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi is fully aware of the reality. He had nothing but praise for the people of Pakistan. Again, if what he saw was bida, he would have the first to correct it. let me clarify, are you saying that all mawlid celebrations are full of bidah in the subcontinent? is this a defence of the fatwa from deoband? forigive me if i sound like i am attacking deoband - i am not, i just want clarification on this and what i have seen with my own eyes in towns and cities across the uk.

<<Anyway like is says one of the best if not the best of the best scholars mid east has produced this century Sheikh Abdul fattah abu Guddah from mid east was very close to deobandsi translating their books for the arabs, not the brelwis.>>

thats just one bro. in anycase, the barelwi's know very well of him.

<<And Look at scholars like mufti taqi, whom people fro all over the world refer to. Now what scholars are there like him that the brelvis posses?>>

no need to compare like this bro. I would say that Shaykh Tahir ul-Qadri is a scholar to be reckoned with. In the UK, there are well-known scholars such as Mawlana Shaykh Muhammad Yazdani Misbahi al-Azhari, the Imam and Shaykh of Hounslow Masjid and Walthamstow Masjid. But i am not getting into this debate on 'our scholars are better than yours'. This needs to stop and is completely unislamic.

<<And why does this sound like its turning into a brelvi deobandi split?>>

i don't know. i was writing what i saw as an outsider. Many arab brothers would agree.

<<and give us the brelvi link you talkin about. May Allah reward you.>>

http://www.minhaj.org/home/index.minhaj

http://www.minhaj.tv/new/index.minhaj

http://www.dawateislami.net/

www.*****************


and in response to abu usama:

<<okay thats just a huge exagerration really. I am surrounded by berelvis and not a single one believes that these things are fardh and if you do not believe in them you're a kafir. And nor do thier ulema believe this.>>

i definitely agree on the latter. However, i have met the former.

<<What they say is that these are excellent things to do (not fardh) and are highly recommended because of the benefit from them. As for haazir wa naazir, they believe that it is the truth but do not say that it is a point of aqeedah (not the learned berelvis anyway).>>

agreed.

<<What they do say, is that those who do not allow these things or believe in them, are "wahhabies" (as they also regard deobandis as wahhabies).>>

that is not completely untrue, i have to say. The majority opinions from the sunni ulama have generally agreed with barelwi opinions, especially from the sufi shuyukh of past and present.

<<In regards to why the sunni sheikhs visit berelvi mosques, the reason is that many of the deobandi mosques are more influenced by the wahhabies. So for example, it is very rare that you see that a deobandi mosque will hold group zikr (even though the deobandi ulema have said its good).>>

why is that?

[Muawiyah]

Dear brothers, are you saying that the Deobandi ulama in South Africa or Britain never hold any gathering in which the seerah is mentioned? Because that is the "reality of mawlid" on which everyone agrees. Otherwise the festival on the arbitrary date of 12th Rabi ul Awwal has always been controversial Allaamah Faakihaani Rahimahullah wrote against it as Allaamah Jalaal ud Deen Suyuti Rahimahullah wrote in his essay in defence of mawlid.

Similarly the case of zikr bil jahr, many Ulama allow it and many disallow it. And it has always been so, it's not as if "Sunnis allow zikr bil jahr and wahaabies don't"

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

dear brother:

<<Dear brothers, are you saying that the Deobandi ulama in South Africa or Britain never hold any gathering in which the seerah is mentioned?>>

on the contrary, i am saying that there is never a mawlid an-nabi function or gathering in deobandi masjids that i have seen - if there are correct me. And these are the same type of mawlid functions that are held by ahnaf, shafi's, malikiyya and hanabila across the globe. such as the one held by Shaykh Ahmad Babikr as-Sudani in Cricklewood this year - he is maliki and present there were Shafi'i and Hanafi's (Barelwi's). Also, the type held in Pakistan organised by the Minhaj movement, to which Shaykh al-Yaqoubi attended and spoke.

yes the mawlid has been controversial - generally because of what took place in it, not the mawlid itself. The fact is the majority of ahl al-sunna, the fuqaha and the shayukh of tasawwuf and tariqa have celebrated mawlid, and encouraged it throughout history to the present day. Only a minority have said the mawlid itself is a bida, as opposed to what takes part in them. At the end of the day, the opposition to mawlid is not one that has been agreed upon by the scholars of ahl al-sunna. The problem arises when people say it is a bida and haram to celebrate the mawlid when millions of Muslims worldwide are celebrating it, free from any 'bida' or 'haram' practices that some scholars accuse the mawlid of consisting of.

What do the Deobandi's think of sitting in the masjid and reciting qasidat-al burda and dala'il khayrat as a group?

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

Mufti Taqi Uthmani and the other scholars who have deemed Mawlid a Bidah have done so based on certain conditions which they have outlined in their Fatwas i.e unislamic actions, confining the event to specific days and so forth. Akhi Muawiya has brought up an excellent point. The fact is Mawlid is now seen as some sort of event that takes place on the 12th of Rabial Awal. That is not the case. When a group of scholars sit down to discuss and and recount the blessings of the birth/life of the Prophet, that is in itself a type of Mawlid.

As for Deobandis not celebrating it, once again look at the actions of Shaikh Khalil and Hajji Imdadullah.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

<<Mufti Taqi Uthmani and the other scholars who have deemed Mawlid a Bidah have done so based on certain conditions which they have outlined in their Fatwas i.e unislamic actions, confining the event to specific days and so forth.>>

Despite Mufti Uthmani's stature which i do not at all wish to spoil, have a read of the following regarding his fatwa [from a hanafi who would call himself neither deobandi nor barelwi]:

http://www.livingislam.org/n/tufm_e.html

<<Akhi Muawiya has brought up an excellent point. The fact is Mawlid is now seen as some sort of event that takes place on the 12th of Rabial Awal. That is not the case.>>

'Mawlid an-nabi' is generally seen as a celebration that does take place in and around the 12th of Rabi al-Awwal. A Mawlid in itself is not.

<<When a group of scholars sit down to discuss and and recount the blessings of the birth/life of the Prophet, that is in itself a type of Mawlid.>>

i agree, this is a mawlid. But it is not usually called 'mawlid an-nabi' which refers to the celebration in and around the 12th of Rabi al-Awwal because of the relevance of that date regadless of whether mawlids take place at other times during the year.

Allah knows best

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

also read:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/verdict.htm

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mawlid.htm

and the article 'Should we celebrate Mawlid (The Prophet's (S) birthday)?'
Answered by Dr. `Isa al-Mani` al-Humayri which can be read at sunnipath.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum


Despite Mufti Uthmani's stature which i do not at all wish to spoil, have a read of the following regarding his fatwa [from a hanafi who would call himself neither deobandi nor barelwi]:

A Shafi, who leaned very much to the Brelwis and was a severe critic of the Deobandis in his early days. Although i have immense love and respect for Shaikh Gibril, i cannot agree with him on all things. Mufti Taqis Fatwa is clear cut:

-- As I explained in my article on celebration of Eid Miladun Nabi (Mawlid), holding a meeting to discuss different aspects of the life of the Holy Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) is a very meritorious act for which the Muslims should strive to the best of their ability. But confining this discussion to the events of the birth of the Holy Prophet and restricting it to a particular date and holding attendance at such meetings as necessary or obligatory for every Muslim renders this practice as bid’ah or innovation.

Mostly the meetings of Mawlid today are of this type. Therefore, contemporary Ulema of Deoband have declared it a bid’ah.

If the life of the Holy Prophet is made subject of a meeting, and the meeting is free of the above mentioned defects, nobody can call it a bid’ah. It is in this context that some scholars of the past have allowed the practice. (www.albalagh.net)

(end quote)


'Mawlid an-nabi' is generally seen as a celebration that does take place in and around the 12th of Rabi al-Awwal. A Mawlid in itself is not.

That is incorrect. There is no difference between Mawlid and MAwlidun Nabi. They signify the same thing. It is just a play on words. The Ulema of the Arab world have Mawlids every single week celebrating the birh of the Prophet. It is something done all year round, as stated in Sayyid Malikis quote in Shaikh Gibrils reply, not something confined to one day and one time.

-- A Eid only comes once a year, as for the celebration of his Mawlid and the consideration of his remembrance and Sira, they must be permanent and not restricted to a particular time nor place. (Hawl al-Ihtifal bi Dhikra al-Mawlid al-Nabawi al-Sharif)

Wallahu A'lam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

there is absolutely no doubting the merit of celebrating the mawlid all year round and you are correct in saying that the scholars of ahl al-sunna do this in the arab world. BUT you said:

"A Shafi, who leaned very much to the Brelwis and was a severe critic of the Deobandis in his early days."

he is not and never has been barelwi; and if this was his leaning then one has to ask why? this is not uncommon among scholars in Shaam. That is why he has taken it upon himself to defend 'barelwi' concepts such as hadhir and nadhir and saying 'ya rasulallah'.

"Although i have immense love and respect for Shaikh Gibril, i cannot agree with him on all things."

i accept that we cannot agree with scholars on matters, but i would like to know (out of interest) what you don't agree with him on.

quote:

"But confining this discussion to the events of the birth of the Holy Prophet and restricting it to a particular date and holding attendance at such meetings as necessary or obligatory for every Muslim renders this practice as bid’ah or innovation.

Mostly the meetings of Mawlid today are of this type. Therefore, contemporary Ulema of Deoband have declared it a bid’ah."

let us break down this statement:

1. confining this discussion to the events of the birth of the Holy Prophet - there is absolutely no harm in doing this. You will find that 99 % of the scholars of ahl al-sunna will attest to this.

2. restricting it to a particular date - this is not done. Rather, the expression of the celebration is no doubt of a greater magnitude on this date, and this is permissible.

3. attendance is not obligatory - i do not know of barelwi scholars who said that. conversely it is equally as bad to say it is Haram.

and regarding your statement, it is a sweeping generilisation. At the barelwi masjids i have attended, they have mawlids all year round, they sing qasida al-burda nearly every day and they have immense reverence for the prophet (s) not being restricted to any particular date. Brother, have you been to contemporary mawlids in the UK? Did you see the mawlid in Pakistan that Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi attended? (he is also neither barelwi nor deobandi) Did any deobandi ulama attend this? or any mawlids for that matter?

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

Sidi Faraz Rabbani commented on this at sunnipath:

"In general, this [i.e. the mawlid being a bid`a] is not the position taken by the Arab Hanafi (or other Arab Sunni) scholars."

[abduljalalmarabani]

Dear brothers, are you saying that the Deobandi ulama in South Africa or Britain never hold any gathering in which the seerah is mentioned?

my very dear brother,

why are you changing my words? first of all i said it was the deobandis in south africa who dont hold mawlids, i said that i did not know about the british types..

and furthermore, i said that they dont hold mawlids, which is true. you have gone and taken the age-old now boring deobandi defense which translates "mawlid" as "any function in which the seerah is mentioned".

laughable.

by "they dont hold mawlids" i mean they dont hold functions and say "this is a mawlid". its really quite clear. if you cant see that, then your heart may be shut to the matter.

by the way, i ain't no barelwi, i ain't no deobandi, i am just a plain old hanafi...

abduljalal marabani al-shami

[Muawiyah]

Brother AbdulJalal i wasn't twisting your words, when I said brothers i meant you and brother Shaykh-Pir.

The festival of 12 Rabi ul Awwal is not from the Shaa'ir of the ahl us Sunnah. As you must know , it was instituted in 604 Hijri. The Sunni Ulama from the mutaqadimeen AND from 300 year afterwards did not know of it, so the claim that the jamhoor ulama of Ahl us Sunnah were in favour of it , is doubtful. Also the Ulama who forbid it are not making any new rules, they are issuing their fataawa on the usool of the Ulama of the past.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum


he is not and never has been barelwi; and if this was his leaning then one has to ask why? this is not uncommon among scholars in Shaam. That is why he has taken it upon himself to defend 'barelwi' concepts such as hadhir and nadhir and saying 'ya rasulallah'.

I never stated he was a Brelwi at all, but his great opposition to the Deoband school and his pro Brelwi and Shaikh Ahmad Rida stance is clear cut to the extent that he labelled Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi a Deobandi/Wahabi in one of his articles. However, as i stated, this was in his early days.


i accept that we cannot agree with scholars on matters, but i would like to know (out of interest) what you don't agree with him on.

Haadhir Wa Naadhir etc etc


and regarding your statement, it is a sweeping generilisation. At the barelwi masjids i have attended, they have mawlids all year round, they sing qasida al-burda nearly every day and they have immense reverence for the prophet (s) not being restricted to any particular date. Brother, have you been to contemporary mawlids in the UK? Did you see the mawlid in Pakistan that Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi attended? (he is also neither barelwi nor deobandi) Did any deobandi ulama attend this? or any mawlids for that matter?

I have not made any sweeping generalisations in this post at all, unless you have seen otherwise, which you should point out. As for the UK, then Mufti taqi has no concern with the UK. I have lived in Pakistan for a number of years so i have enough knowledge of what goes on which allows me to understand the Fatwa of the Deobandi Ulema. Neither do i accuse all Brelwis of doing this nor do i say Mufti Taqi generalized, since he knows best what happens in a country he has been living in for his whole life.

As for the Deobandis attending the MAwlid, then my grand shaikh Hajji Imdadullah used to attend them in Saudi Arabia and so did Shaikh Khalil etc. The Fatwas provided by Mufti taqi and Shaikh Khalil are explicit in regards to the position of Mawlid.

Wallahu A'lam

[abduljalalmarabani]

the claim that the jamhoor ulama of Ahl us Sunnah were in favour of it , is doubtful.

Whose words are these? I mean I know you typed them but where did you get them from?

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

history aside, we are talking about present times and certainly mawlid an-nabi, the festival of 12th Rabi al Awwal is accepted by the majority of sunni ulama, fuqaha and sufi Shayukh who are masters of the outward and inward. The concept of hadhir and nadhir is also taken by many sufi shayukh from the arab world, which is why Shaykh Haddad took it upon himself to defend this.

as for your generalisations, i was referring to your comment:

"Mostly the meetings of Mawlid today are of this type. Therefore, contemporary Ulema of Deoband have declared it a bid’ah."

i would beg to disagree and say this is a generisation. if that were the case, then why did the shayukh you yourself mentioned attend mawlids in Saudi.

Furthermore, the massive mawlid celebrations of 12th Rabi al-Awwal in Pakistan was attended by Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi; and a massive mawlid celebration around 12th Rabi al-awwal in the Emirates attended by Habib Umar & Habib Ali from Yemen, Shaykh Muhamamd ibn 'alawi al-Maliki and Shaykh Buti amongst many others.

Do these mawlids come under your definition of 'most meetings'? What about mawlids held in the UK in and around 12th Rabi al-Awwal, such as Shaykh BaBikr;s mawlid in Cricklewood North London which attracted a huge attendance. One of the sudanes shaykhs there said if this was a bida, then he is the biggest bidati! Shaykh BaBikr at previous mawlid an-nabi's has said that in Sudan, if you don't celebrate the mawlid it is a bida!

To summarise, the fatwa of Mufti Taqi applies to certain mawlids which may consist of haram activities (if not, they are not Haram) - although i have never seen them; and it only applies in the Subcontinent?? is this correct??

In any case, why no mawlid an-nabi's in the UK?

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

at the end of the day my question is:

Which contemporary and well-known hanafi [non-deobandi], shafi'i, maliki or hanbali Imams and Fuqaha have declared the mawlid a bida? If any have, i would llike to read their fatawa. Such Mawlids take place all over the islamic world: Indonesia, Malaysia, North Africa, etc etc etc....

[muminah]

is this forum barelwi or deobandi??

[anti-bid'ah]

it seems more barelvified to me. :( :mad:

[Abu Usama]

a) it's neither berelvi or deobandi
b) it's both berelvi and deobandi

- take your pick. Either way, its a SUNNI forum.

[anti-bid'ah]

it cant be barelvi and deobandi because there is a BIG difference between the deobandis and barelvis. Making deobandis and barelvis the same is a big insult to our deoband ulamaa who sacrificed their lives to eradicate bid'ah and spread the sunnah.

[Saleel]

:salam:

The ulema who take part on the forum are Deobandi, :alhamd:, and you'll find that most of the members here are also Deobandi. In addition, most, if not all, of the founding Shura are Deobandi.

:salam:

[anti-bid'ah]

Salafis are spreading their doctrines all over the world while sunnis are discussing small matters such as barelwi /deobandi...



Salafis ARE sunnis. you make it sound that salafis are worse than shiahs( al eyaadhu billaah) :mad:
my point was that branding barelvis and deobandis as same is totally wrong.
eventhough we are all muslims, and in times like such we should be united, but this does not mean you label barelvis and deobandis as same.

[Goldi]

Is there a point to this thread?

[Muslimsister]

Salafis ARE sunnis. you make it sound that salafis are worse than shiahs( al eyaadhu billaah) :mad:
my point was that branding barelvis and deobandis as same is totally wrong.
eventhough we are all muslims, and in times like such we should be united, but this does not mean you label barelvis and deobandis as same.

Sorry, brother, didn't mean it... I just meant that this place is a good example of a place where one can freely express ones madhabi or otherwise nonsalafi opinions, without beeing branded "out of the ahlussunnah wal-jamaat" which i tend to be called at times...
Sorry again... i'm a tablighi, if that's ok? :lol:

[fnaeem]

In my uninformed and uneducated opinion.
the school of barelwis and the deobandis originate (I am neither,although probably lean towards deobandi) in India. So you have to keep the premises and the environment in context. just go to the indian subcontinent in rabi-ul-awal and see what happens on the 12th. if you in your heart can reconcile that these practices are not innovation, more power to you. I cant do that. too much pomp and decorating the markets etc, processions etc.

to those who say that well why dont the deobandis celebrate mawlid in sa/uk. until you get a significant majority of native born deobandis, this is not going to happen, imho. When I was in pakistan I was not that practicing, so I didnt really know about these schools etc. I believe anyone who has lived in the subcontinent and is not a barelwi is going to have reservations about the mawlid. whether you are a deobandi or just your average jamal. we are gun shy. you burn your hand playing with matches as a kid you dont do that again. you see the mawlid as it is celebrated ( no matter what a fatwa says) and it just doesnt fit any definition of islamic piety and the image stays in your mind.

I think those who can celebrate the mawlid without doing innovative things, alhamdullilah. its not an article of aqeedah so for those of us who are gun shy, we can discuss the life of the prophet in meetings whether they be on the 12th or some other day. I dont hate barelwis but just reading their stuff online from islamicacademy.com and *********** makes you wonder, why do they hate non-barelwis so much.

someone needs to get the message across that as muslims and sunnis we have much bigger fish to fry and this bickering needs to stop. Of course, that is going to happen and I am going to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

Wasalam
Faisal

[muminah]

:salam:

The ulema who take part on the forum are Deobandi, :alhamd:, and you'll find that most of the members here are also Deobandi. In addition, most, if not all, of the founding Shura are Deobandi.

:salam:

sorry bro but that really doesnt seem the case , if that was the case i wouldnt have started this thread. This forum UNFORTUNATELY :mad: doesnt represnt deobandis and The Deobandi 'ulaama. The forum wants to make deobandis and barelwis equal (na'udhoo billlah), and it is clear there is a great difference between deobandis and barelwis. Another point please make your refrences about deobandis from the actual DEOBANDI scholars instead of non-deobandi scholars. For example regarding the deobandi view on milaad-un-nabee, there is no need to take the view of what a non-deobandi scholar (Gibril Haddad) thinks of what the deobandis think of milaad-un-naabi and ignoring the actual scholars of deoband and those who have graduated from deobandi madaaris (like Mufti Taqi Uthmaani).
if you want to become barelwis, become so if you want (na'oozo billah), but please dont go around saying you are deobandis whilst you are barelwis or barelwi wannabs because that is a great insult to our deobandi scholars.
jazakAllah

[anti-bid'ah]

i'm a tablighi, if that's ok? :lol:

:) yes we all try our utmost to do tableegh and spread the sunnah !!!

[Saleel]

:salam:

...but please dont go around saying you are deobandis whilst you are barelwis or barelwi wannabs because that is a great insult to our deobandi scholars.
Hmm. If It makes you happy, I'll call myself a barelwi then. How you ripped open my heart and made that conclusion, Allahu Alam, but you're obviously trying to take the siffat of Al-Hakam into your ownself. :mash:.

Funny though, just last week the Barelwis have called me Deobandi, a wahhabi and out of the fold of Ahle Sunnah, and now a Deobandi is calling me a Barelwi and out of the fold of Ahle Sunnah. Oh, what fun.

:salam:

[AbuZayd]

Some people seem to think that the Islamic world revolves around Deoband and Bareilly!!

Trust me, most people couldn't care less about classifying themselves as one or the other.

If Mawlid is the problem then why don't you read the article on the Mawlid by Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam (a student of Deobandis like Mufti Taqi Uthmani) - or is he not a Deobandi in your opinion?

[muminah]

:salam:

Hmm. If It makes you happy, I'll call myself a barelwi then.

:salam:

no actually it doesnt make me "happy" :mad: . we have to try our best to get everyone on the right path and to follow the salafu-saaliheen

[muminah]

Trust me, most people couldn't care less about classifying themselves as one or the other.



its not about classifying themselves as deobandis or barelwis ; its a matter of NOT making them the same whilst there are not

[Muslimsister]

:) yes we all try our utmost to do tableegh and spread the sunnah !!!

Salam,
I think by ignoring many differences a lot more reviving the sunnah can be done... Am i incorrect? I mean just by spreading the sunnah and taking everyone with us should bring about alot more true deen , than beeing divided into dif. groups, both slandering eachother, wa Allahu alam, opinions? Of course my weakness is, that i'm not living in the areas of these "barelwi", so can't say how strong they are around there, but i just think ppl would learn a lot more if they'd be considered equal, i mean people individually, not groups...? A direct fight can make ppl just go further away, not? Correct me, if i'm wrong...

[muminah]

:salam:



Funny though, just last week the Barelwis have called me Deobandi, a wahhabi and out of the fold of Ahle Sunnah, and now a Deobandi is calling me a Barelwi and out of the fold of Ahle Sunnah. Oh, what fun.

:salam:

no bro i am not calling you a barelwi (na'oozu billah) !!!!

[muminah]

If Mawlid is the problem then why don't you read the article on the Mawlid by Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam (a student of Deobandis like Mufti Taqi Uthmani) - or is he not a Deobandi in your opinion?

he wouldnt be classed as the deobandi representative. And it dosent mean if you are a student of deobandi you are personally a deobandi

[Abu Usama]

Salam,


The forum wants to make deobandis and barelwis equal (na'udhoo billlah),

Niether group is perfect and beyond criticism, and there is much to be learnt from both groups. So just chill yeah... And also, do me a favour - have a look at my website (see my sig.) and then try to figure out if I'm berelvi or deobandi.

In regards to the Gibril Haddad post - i posted it because it provided some evidences and quotes which i thought may be helpful to certain people. If you don't like it, then leave it as it is.

And like has already been said - the whole Islamic world doesn't revolve around bereilly and deoband.

May allah (swt) enable us to take what is good and pure from both schools, and may Allah (swt) enable us to leave aside that which is reprehensible from everywhere.

Wasalam

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

I personally believe (as do others) that *********** does more damage to the image of berelvis then good. It's best not to judge them according to these sites, - rather one should judge them according to how one knows them (in person).

[muminah]

Salam,



Niether group is perfect and beyond criticism, and there is much to be learnt from both groups. So just chill yeah... And also, do me a favour - have a look at my website (see my sig.) and then try to figure out if I'm berelvi or deobandi.

In regards to the Gibril Haddad post - i posted it because it provided some evidences and quotes which i thought may be helpful to certain people. If you don't like it, then leave it as it is.

And like has already been said - the whole Islamic world doesn't revolve around bereilly and deoband.


lol ok but i dont think there is a need im sure you know
and too right the Islamic world dosent resolve around barelwi & deobandi but the point is making them equal is just a total slander and fabrication !!!
Allah keep us all on the straight path.Aameen

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

again, speaking from neither barelwi nor deobandi origins, i have to say that the anti-non-barelwi propaganda (extending from anything non-barelwi being wahhabi to full-on takfir) is met with exaclty the same anti non-deobandi propaganda.

<<to those who say that well why dont the deobandis celebrate mawlid in sa/uk. until you get a significant majority of native born deobandis, this is not going to happen, imho.>>

i think in the UK, the deobandi's have been around long enough for a significant number of native-born Muslims with the same outlook. You just need to take a good look in towns such as Dewsbury, Bury, Blackburn, Bolton, Bradford, etc etc - there are loads.


<<you see the mawlid as it is celebrated ( no matter what a fatwa says) and it just doesnt fit any definition of islamic piety and the image stays in your mind.>>

the same goes for tasawwuf and sufism in general. Many Muslims have come from the subcontinent (and indeed the mmid-east) with a negative view of tasawwuf. That doesn't mean we issue fatawa saying it is bida!

<<I think those who can celebrate the mawlid without doing innovative things, alhamdullilah. its not an article of aqeedah so for those of us who are gun shy, we can discuss the life of the prophet in meetings whether they be on the 12th or some other day.>>

that is true. I am not saying it is wrong not to celebrate it. I was simply wondering why the deobandi's in the west refuse to take part in it - even when it is free of 'bida', and if not, why not hold mawlids themselves.

<<I dont hate barelwis but just reading their stuff online from islamicacademy.com and *********** makes you wonder, why do they hate non-barelwis so much.>>

it takes two to tango. As long as one attacks the other, nothing will change.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

lets get things straight:

Islam is not Deoband. Neither is Islam Barelwi.

its time the students of each 'faction' go to the middle east, study with ahl al-sunna scholars who haven't been 'corrupted' by this fitna from the subcontinent. i would sunnipath is a neutral source that every deobandi/barelwi.

[anti-bid'ah]

as salamu alaykum

lets get things straight:

Islam is not Deoband. Neither is Islam Barelwi.



i totally agree but that dosent mean we go around labelling them both as equals !!

[anti-bid'ah]

as salamu alaykum

its time the students of each 'faction' go to the middle east, study with ahl al-sunna scholars who haven't been 'corrupted' by this fitna from the subcontinent. i would sunnipath is a neutral source that every deobandi/barelwi.

who do u mean by the "ahl al-sunna scholars "??

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

labelling them as equals???

i find this comment absolutely ridiculous! Of course they are equal. All Muslims are equal in front of Allah. And so it is equally ridiculous to say that Deobandi's are superior to Barelwis. This is just childishness.

Is a sinful Deobandi better than a pious Barelwi?

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

by ahl al-sunna scholars i would mean hanafi scholars from the arab world who are not plagued by the deobandi/barelwi fitna. An example would Shaykh Jamal al-Dhahabi, Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi....

[anti-bid'ah]

as salamu alaykum

labelling them as equals???

i find this comment absolutely ridiculous! Of course they are equal. All Muslims are equal in front of Allah. And so it is equally ridiculous to say that Deobandi's are superior to Barelwis. This is just childishness.

Is a sinful Deobandi better than a pious Barelwi?

i am not talking about whose better, all i am saying is that their 'aqaaids and beliefes are different NOT equal !!!

and it it is up to Allah who is better but that is no excuse for doing bid'ah !!!!

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

it depends what you classify as bida brother..

[anti-bid'ah]

i dont classify bid'ah shar'eeah classifies bid'ah

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

as far as i am concerned, both are maturidi in aqida, hanafi in fiqh. Barelwi's are generally more sufic and show it outwardly, deobandi's less so even though i am not doubting they believe in tasawwuf. Even so, one doesn't see group dhikr, and singing of qasidas in most deobandi masjids.

Is this classes as bida in shari'a bro?

[Haamilul Qur'aan]

:salam:

:subh: , I just read through this thread and it seems to be reeking with hatred, accusation, and anger. Please try to keep in mind that we are brothers and sisters in Islam. We must treat eachother with respect, kindness, and good manners. Here are some reminders for us all, Insha'Allah.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: "The Prophet never used bad language neither a 'Fahish nor a Mutafahish. He used to say 'The best amongst you are those who have the best manners and character.'"
--(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 759)

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: "The Prophet said, "Whoever has the following four (characteristics) will be a pure hypocrite and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up:

1. Whenever he is entrusted, he betrays.

2. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.

3. Whenever he makes a covenant, he proves treacherous.

4. Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner."
--(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 33)

"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just."
--(The Noble Quran, 60:8)

Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: "Allah's Apostle said, 'Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind."
--(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED), Volume 9, Book 93, Number 473)

We should all try and keep in mind (especially myself) that we must be humble, patient, polite, and well-mannered when dealing with others, whether they be Muslim or non-Muslim, :insh:.

:salam:

** If someone could please define the words 'Fahish and Mutafahish, :insh:, it would be beneficial to us all. :jazak: ***

[Saleel]

:salam:

** If someone could please define the words 'Fahish and Mutafahish, :insh:, it would be beneficial to us all. :jazak: ***
:jazak: for your comprehensive post sister ninjabi. :insh: we all take heed.

As far as I know, fahish means one who talks evil, and mutafahish is one who conveys evil. Wallahu Alam. May Allah swt save us from these characteristics. Ameen.

:salam:

[Mossy]

is this forum barelwi or deobandi??

This forum is whatever the members make it.

It is for all people, sunni or otherwise - a community like any other where we must treat each other with adab and respect and look beyond labels which place barriers between us and working from our commonality.

There are no agenda's here save insh'Allah creating a community that will help people in the path of Allah (swt).

Question answered, thread closed to avoid possible fitnah (calm down and have a cup of tea).

[Muawiyah]

I'm not sure what you mean, the sentence:

«...the claim that the jamhoor ulama of Ahl us Sunnah were in favour of it , is doubtful.»

is mine (copyright 2004)

The claim is by the supporters of the 12th Rabi ul awwal festival.
------------------


Now getting back to the main topic:

Is "following the sunnah" synonymous with "opposing the wahhaabies"?

[Abu Usama]

Now getting back to the main topic:

Is "following the sunnah" synonymous with "opposing the wahhaabies"?

No, obviously not, since even the shia oppose the wahhabies

[abduljalalmarabani]

«...the claim that the jamhoor ulama of Ahl us Sunnah were in favour of it , is doubtful.»

is mine (copyright 2004)

May I ask what sort of authority you have to say that such a statement is in doubt?

[GenN]

Assalam alykum,

the mere fact that this topic of mawlid is being discussed and it is being asked WHY don't deobandis celebrate mawlid over and over again (and here we are talking about mawlid in terms of the celerbration on and around 12 rabi ul awal) PROVES that the MENTALITY of the pro-mawlid people is slowley but surely being geared towards "we SHOULD celerbrate mawlid, and those that don't why don't they, they should be doing so if they calim to be from ahlul sunnah". If it wasnt then no on would even be asking WHY don't the deobandis celerbrate mawlid cos the first 3 generations didnt celerbrate it, so for anyone who asks WHY don't the deobandis celebrate they should also be asking WHY didnt the first 3 generations celebrate it.

The actual mentality should be that if you want to celerbrate it then alhmadullilalh go ahead (so long as it is without reprehensible and true bida thoughts and actions) , and if you don't want to celerbrate it then alhamdullillah, don't just like the first 3 generations and those after them did not either.

So those who celebrate it every year, it would be worthwhile to miss it on some years so as not to get too caugght up in the mentality that it SHOULD be celebrated.

IF you repond to this by saying "no no i'm not saying we SHOULD celerbrate it" then stop there, cos if you truly belive that, then there is no real need to ask those that don't celerbrate it, WHY don't you celerbrate it.

If it is asked WHY, then the reply of those that don't celerbrate it should be, it is not neccssasry as the first 3 generations did not celerbrate it.

Beyond this there would be no need at all for discussion on this issue, unless someone actually is TRYING to GET you to cerbrate it. no one should be trying to get anyone else to celebrate it as it is not neccassary, if you do celerbarte itthen fine, if you don't then fine.

in short discussion like this about the mawlid should not even be occuring UNLESS people are actually trying to get others to celbrate it cos slowly but surely the mentality of those who celerbrate it is being geared towards we SHOULD celerbrate.

[GenN]

Anyway, for those of you criticisng deobandis as to why the deobandis in Uk don't celbrate it when the bidah is back home in subcontinent (even though i can asure a 110% in many mawlid gatherings their is bidah in UK (for example the one i attended they kept on referring to the mawlid as EID, thats the last time i'll be going there!!) for your information Mufti Muhammed ibn Adam student of Mufti Taqi Uthamni was invited to a mawlid gathering this year and he wanted to go to it (not sure if he actully ended up going i think he might have) but the point is he was ok about going to it. So much for deobandis in UK not celerbarting mawlid by still having the subcontinet mentalities.

and thats just one example, imagine how many more there could be.

was salaam.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

so what if people call the mawlid an eid? This does not be a bida nor does it make it a bidah. By eid, they do not mean "day of celebration" which is what it is for them, in the same way that jummah is a mini eid.

[GenN]

Assalm alykum,

Islam has only 2 eids, you canno tcall anything else eid, theres some articels on sunnpath on this i think,, i'll try find em.

[Muawiyah]

Arr! what's with this lawyer like discussion?

I have no authority. When some brothers claim that the jamhoor ulama are in favour of something, I doubt that claim because that something was started in 604H so the greatest of the Ulama never had such a celebration.

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

what about the ulama after that? they were surely better than the ones now?

[Abu Usama]

In regards to calling it an eid, i said the same thing to a berelvi brother, and i post his repsonse to me (from another forum):

-----------

Assalamu 'Alaikum!
Eid is any day of happiness as explained by the commentators, translators and lexicographers.
Jum'a, as you rightly stated, is a day of Eid. One reason for this is because Adam was created on this day. To show the speciality of the birth day of Adam, Allah granted Jum'a fadilah (speciality).
The day of birth of Muhammad (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) is indeed the greatest day in the history of creation. So, this is a greater Eid than any other day.
It is not a Shar'i Eid like al-Fitr and al-Adha, but because it is a day of happiness, it is called Eid.
The Qur'an says the day on which food was bestowed upon 'Isa ('alaihis salam) is a day of Eid for all people, so what about that day when the master of 'Isa was born?
Yawm-ul-Arafah is also called an Eid and also the days of Tashreeq are called Eid.
In the hadith, it is stated that Jum'a is better than both Eids and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal says that Jum'a is even better than Lailat-ul-Qadr because this day the dear Prophet's ('alaihis salam) noor went to the womb of Sayyida Amina (radiyallahu ta'ala anha).
Imam Suyuti writes that one of the Khalaf, Shaikh Abut Tayyib Basti (395 Hijri) went past a school on the day of Mawlid and said, "Give the children a holiday, this is a day of happiness".
Imam Qastalani and Shaikh Fathullah Misri write similar things. So, it is perfectly sound to call the day of Mawlid a day of Eid (happiness).

[abduljalalmarabani]

PROVES that the MENTALITY of the pro-mawlid people is slowley but surely being geared towards "we SHOULD celerbrate mawlid ....

IF you repond to this by saying "no no i'm not saying we SHOULD celerbrate it" then stop there, cos if you truly belive that, then there is no real need to ask those that don't celerbrate it, WHY don't you celerbrate it.

Beyond this there would be no need at all for discussion on this issue, unless someone actually is TRYING to GET you to cerbrate it.
Now hang on a second. You have not exhausted all the possibilities of why someone would be arguing in favour of mawlid. I dont know about anyone else, but I am not asking anyone WHY they dont celebrate it, nor am I insisting that they SHOULD celebrate it.

That is not my intention at all. I really could not give two hoots whether one celebrates or not. I agree with your statement below:



no one should be trying to get anyone else to celebrate it as it is not neccassary, if you do celerbarte itthen fine, if you don't then fine.
My main gripe with this whole issue is, and has always been, how deobandis have concurred with the wahhabi point of view in this matter, and considered it a bid'a sayyiat FULL STOP - "It was not done in the Prophets time and so thats that". As I said, I don't know about UK, but you can see this most clearly in South Africa, at Azaadville, Zakariyya, Newcastle. I can think of only one new darul-ulum in South Africa which is espousing the new thinking ie. the old traditional thinking.

The fact of the matter is that Deobandis are undergoing a paradigm shift in thought. 10 years ago, you would not have heard some common Deobandi guy saying "yeah, mawlid is Ok if you dont do this or that", whereas now you do. What is helping is the realisation that parts of Indian Islam are for India not for everywhere else.

And I guess my part in this whole thing is to point out, as was said by GenN:

If you want to celebrate it, fine. If you dont want to, fine. If you feel uncomfortable with it, fine - no problem, IT'S NOT A FARDH, IT'S NOT A SUNNAH, WHAT IT IS, IS MERELY PERMISSIBLE.

But also to point out that if you don't want to celebrate it, then don't go and say it is wrong, that it is a reprehensible innovation and nothing else.

was-salaam
wa billahi tawfiq
abdul jalal marabani

[GenN]

My main gripe with this whole issue is, and has always been, how deobandis have concurred with the wahhabi point of view in this matter, and considered it a bid'a sayyiat FULL STOP - "It was not done in the Prophets time and so thats that". As I said, I don't know about UK, but you can see this most clearly in South Africa, at Azaadville, Zakariyya, Newcastle. I can think of only one new darul-ulum in South Africa which is espousing the new thinking ie. the old traditional thinking.

The fact of the matter is that Deobandis are undergoing a paradigm shift in thought. 10 years ago, you would not have heard some common Deobandi guy saying "yeah, mawlid is Ok if you dont do this or that", whereas now you do. What is helping is the realisation that parts of Indian Islam are for India
not for everywhere else.

They don't say its bida full stop, they say the things that take part in are what makes it into biada. About the 10 years thing ago, i don't know but i doubt it, its probably more becasue they were trying to stop the bidah of the brelvis in subcontinet that they labelled it bidah full stop.

Allah knows best.

Was salaam.

[muslim786]

Please can we stop all this bickering, if you don't want to do Milad and stuff its ure own loss!!!
This accusation that most events these days is full of bida is also a blatant lie, please visit hounslow mosque in london and Shah Jalal Mosque in Manchester to see what they do. Clearly most milad celebrations run by proper mosques are not full of bidah.


Ya nabi salam `alayka

Ya rasul salam `alayka

Ya habib salam `alayka

salawatullah `alayka

[muslim786]

Assalamulikum,

And don't judge the actions of people in india who don't do salah but do milad as people who are indian milad celebraters, this clearly isn't what proper milad is, proper milad requires one to be a full muslim to be of any benefit, you have to do your fardhs before you to your nafl stuff.

Ya nabi salam `alayka

Ya rasul salam `alayka

Ya habib salam `alayka

salawatullah `alayka

PS two indian HINDU actors went to Ajmer Shareef to ask Hazrat Chisti Shaab for a baby son, thinking that Hazrat Shaab himself was gonna grant it, does that mean this is what Chistis do and accept, most certainly not, or does it mean that they accept hindus as believers certainly not!!!

[Sim]

As Suyuti on milad: "The reason for gathering for tarawih prayers is Sunna and qurba (to seek nearness to Allah)...and similarly we say that the reason for gathering to celebrate the mawlid is mandub (recommended) and qurba (an act of drawing near) ...and the intention to celebrate the mawlid is mustahsana (excellent) without a doubt."

theres nothing wrong with it as far as i am concernced. If the likes of Jalal ud din As Suyuti is celebrating, then bismillah. you don't become one of the greatest imam's to ever walk the earth by comitting bid'ah.

[muslim786]

Nice one brother sim, may we all continue to celebrate Milad An Nabi.


Ya nabi salam `alayka

Ya rasul salam `alayka

Ya habib salam `alayka

salawatullah `alayka

Anyway lets stop arguing if u don't want to celebrate an act which is clearly beneficial then don't, but please leave people alone.

[GenN]

Please can we stop all this bickering, if you don't want to do Milad and stuff its ure own loss!!!


Not that im blaming those that celberate the milad or anything but the loss incurred by us who don't clerbrate it, is no more than the loss incurred by the prophet (SAW) by not celerbrating it, the loss incurred by us is no more than the loss incurred by the salaf by not celerbrating it so ndeed such a loss does not bother us.

And Allah knows best
Was salaam.

P.S Moderators the "pbuh" smilie (should i be calling it a smilie?) is not working.

[muslim786]

Not that im blaming those that celberate the milad or anything but the loss incurred by us who don't clerbrate it, is no more than the loss incurred by the prophet (SAW) by not celerbrating it, the loss incurred by us is no more than the loss incurred by the salaf by not celerbrating it so ndeed such a loss does not bother us.

And Allah knows best
Was salaam.

P.S Moderators the "pbuh" smilie (should i be calling it a smilie?) is not working.

Please refrain from bringing our Master Muhammad SAWS and the sahaba (RA) into your mudslinging.

[eTeacher]

Can someone tell me what EXACTLY happens at a Mawlid/Milad?

Would going to deliver/listen to a speech and Nasheeds about the beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alayhe Wasallam constitute as Mawlid? Is there a need for it in this day and age? Of course there is! Have I been to such gatherings? Yup, I have. If this is not Mawlid/Milad, then can someone please clarify the definition of Milad for me.

[Abu Usama]

Please refrain from bringing our Master Muhammad SAWS and the sahaba (RA) into your mudslinging.

Ya akhi, the brother was merely trying to put his point across and bringing up the salaf and RasoolAllah (saw) was the essential point of his message. There was no "mudslinging" as you put it.

[muslim786]

Can someone tell me what EXACTLY happens at a Mawlid/Milad?

Would going to deliver/listen to a speech and Nasheeds about the beloved Prophet Sallallahu Alayhe Wasallam constitute as Mawlid? Is there a need for it in this day and age? Of course there is! Have I been to such gatherings? Yup, I have. If this is not Mawlid/Milad, then can someone please clarify the definition of Milad for me.

Yes this would be considered a mawlid, even doing salwatosalams is considered a mawlid.

[Abu Usama]

I thought mawlid specifically referred to celebrating the birthday of RasoolAllah (saw)?

[muslim786]

Assalamulikum,

Any sort of halal shariah based event or even action which is done for the sake of remembering and learning about the Prophets SAWS and his life and/or for promoting the praises of the Prophet SAWS is considered a Milad Shareef. These sorts of events tend to increase in number during the month of Rabi Al Awal, due to the prophet being born at this time, but this is not only the time that Milad should be done, we should always observe Milad, and I for one do so regularly, as the mosque’s I go to provide these events regularly. Unfortunately many lay persons think of large scale events held on the 12th of Rabi Al Awal as the only Milad events but of course they are not the only events that are. Usually any event including all or some of the stuff I have mentioned above is considered a Milad.
The sahaba (RA) celebrated Milad everyday of their lives because they always thanked ALLAH SWT for ALLAH SWT sending his mercy onto mankind and they had the best way of celebrating this by helping our beloved saws directly on his mission to spread Islam and the word of Allah.
Our beloved prophet SAWS also remembered his birthday by obserring fast on Monday(due to our beloved being born on this day), as reported in Sahih Muslim

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

"the loss incurred by us is no more than the loss incurred by the salaf by not celerbrating it so ndeed such a loss does not bother us."

i can't believe you wrote this brother. The sahaba were in constant praise and remebrance of the Prophet.

Abu Lahab who IS in hell is given a drop of water, because he freed a slave the day the prophet (s) was born.

Proof that even a kafir gets some respite for acting out of love for the prophet (s). While giants of this ummah have called mawlid an-nabi a praiseworthy act, there those who wish to say 'its no loss'!!!

And we wonder why we are a defeated ummah!!

[Strive4Allah]

Ok i dont know about canada lot but in us lot ere milad means celebrating the day the prophet sallahu alaihi wasallam was born.No body has any proof for it.Our ulama call it bid'ah.
I dont know what mawlid is can someone please explain?
And in milad over here so many naats go on with shirkia kalimahs and ofcourse that isnt jaiz to listen to wallahu aalam.

[Strive4Allah]

U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah.Just the fact that all sorts go on in there.Ever listened to the naats being played there? And the na'aras with ya rasool madad? Does it make sense? Ofcourse not.

[Strive4Allah]

Salam,

Berelvis beleive that RasoolAllah (saw) can hear us when we call to him and ask him for help. However, what differentiates them from others is that they say that it is not necessary that we must be at RasoolAllah's grave to hear us, but that we can be at the other side of the earth and Rasoolallah (saw) will hear us as if w were in front of him. This ability of hearing is one of the characterisitics of RasoolAllah (saw) being haazir wa naazir, according to berelvis.

wASalam
Too true.They say his every where the prophet was a human and a body how can one person be in moscow and engalnd at the same time.They say ALLAHGAVE HIM THE POWERS.iLike what man. Allah is not a body he is noor and noor can be everwhere at one time. Just bang over the wrong end and blame molana ashraf ali thanvi that he said it.

[Strive4Allah]

Please can we stop all this bickering, if you don't want to do Milad and stuff its ure own loss!!!
This accusation that most events these days is full of bida is also a blatant lie, please visit hounslow mosque in london and Shah Jalal Mosque in Manchester to see what they do. Clearly most milad celebrations run by proper mosques are not full of bidah.


Ya nabi salam `alayka

Ya rasul salam `alayka

Ya habib salam `alayka

salawatullah `alayka



I think they are full of bidah just the fact that tell em not to do it one year and see how theyll jump on to you bringing new things lke that into islam and then thinking itsa must is bid'ah.

[abduljalalmarabani]

They don't say its bida full stop, they say the things that take part in are what makes it into biada. About the 10 years thing ago, i don't know but i doubt it, its probably more becasue they were trying to stop the bidah of the brelvis in subcontinet that they labelled it bidah full stop.
Akhi GenN. I cannot believe that you could make such a regressive comment, after all the discussion and clarification that has taken place thus far. I hope you can understand what I am saying.



U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah
GenN, this statement is typical of what I have come to accept from lay-Deobandis. Perhaps more educated types like yourself are few and far between.

wasalaam
ajm

[Abu Usama]

U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah.Just the fact that all sorts go on in there.Ever listened to the naats being played there? And the na'aras with ya rasool madad? Does it make sense? Ofcourse not.

salam,

there's nothing wrong with those naats, alhamdulillah, there is no trace of shirk even in them. Yes we all know the definition of bidah, then we should also know that just because this was not done by the salaf, it doesnt make it a bida'h. We use sunniforum.com as a religious act even though the salaf did not do this and it is not a bida'h - in the same way, we celebrate RasoolAllah's (saw) coming to this world, even though the sahabah themselves did not do it. I've been to mawlid gatherings in the uk, and there is no bidah, no shirk and no haram there in them.

[Abu Usama]

Fatwa from Hadrat Mawlana Khalil Ahmad Sahib Muhaddith Saharanpuri from
his brief compilation titled al-Muhannad `ala al-Mufannad: `Aqa'id Ahl
al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a (Karachi, Dar al-Isha`at edition p. 47):

"Q. Do you say that the commemoration of his birth (SAWS) is considered
reprehensible by the Law as being among the bad, prohibited innovations,
or do you say otherwise?

"A. Allah forbid that any of the Muslims, let alone that we ourselves
should say that the commemoration of his noble birth (SAWS) or even the
commemoration of the dust of his shoes and the urine of his donkey be
considered reprehensible by the Law as being among the bad, prohibited
innovations!

[Strive4Allah]

Akhi GenN. I cannot believe that you could make such a regressive comment, after all the discussion and clarification that has taken place thus far. I hope you can understand what I am saying.



GenN, this statement is typical of what I have come to accept from lay-Deobandis. Perhaps more educated types like yourself are few and far between.

wasalaam
ajm
What? My quoted me and talked to genn?

And Btw giving example of sunniforum and milad they are too totally different things. I know the salaf didnt do it and i KNOW THAT WE CANT SAY TO ANY THING AND EVERYTHING THAT IT IS BIDAH BUT THE WAY ITS DONE IT IS bidah. Am sorry but even if you check no nazmay they re recorded the naaats deleted all the shirk bits. I dont know the naats you are talking about but the naats I am talkking about are played in the milaad thing and they have so much shirk kalimaat in them.
Also how come doing the khatam in masjid is also counted as bidah according to ournulama coz at first it isnt bidah but when ppl start thinking that it is a must and that then it does become bidah thewn they stat thinking its a part of deen and as though its fardh.
I get your point.I am not at all trying to say to you to change your views.I just added my bit in about what our circle of ulamas views are.

[Strive4Allah]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Live4Allah
U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah

GenN, this statement is typical of what I have come to accept from lay-Deobandis. Perhaps more educated types like yourself are few and far between.

wasalaam
ajm


I dont get this

[muslim786]

Mawlid and Milad are referring to the same thing. And saying Ya RasoolAllah Madad is not shirk if you do NOT think our blessed prophet SAWAS to be all powerful and independent of ALLAH, and to my knowledge no one believes he SAWS is not even the shia. This saying falls under wasila or intercession. AND THEREFORE IS MOST DEFINATELY ALLOWED IN SHARIA.

YA Nabi Madad

[Strive4Allah]

I did not say it was shirk.
What does trhe prophet say ''when u ask for help,ask allah for help.
I dont get what u mean by the shia thing

[muslim786]

well don't bother asking anyone to pray for u or to help you with anything then. Naturally all help is granted by ALLAH most high but wasila and intercession are allowed.

I thought the deobandi ulama allowed all this, therefore am i right in saying there are two types of deobandis out there?

[muslim786]

I urge the moderators to close this thread as it appears to be of no benefit to anyone, it will just induce more separation and fighting.

[Strive4Allah]

I thought the deobandi ulama allowed all this, therefore am i right in saying there are two types of deobandis out there? ???
Looks at kitabullah.Assalmau alaikum

[muslim786]

Live4Allah please learn about what your ulama say about these things before attributing falsehood to them or are there really two types of deobandis.

[Strive4Allah]

Hmm when a person thinks I am attributing false like this on ulama then I do not wish to answer any further questions.
Wa itha khaatabahumul jaahiloona kaaloo salaama.
Assalamu alakum

[muslim786]

Please read the new fatwas by Mufti Desai and also the fatwa by Mufti Adam Al Kawtahri. Your stance live4Allah is against ijma an the ahle sunnah wal jammah, I urge you to read the articles on masud.co.uk to know what general sunni muslims think and ask Mufti Kawthari at daralifta for finding out what the deobandis think.

[muslim786]

Answer me this one question then live4allah do the deobandis allow wasila and intercession?

[seven]

i think ppl pay attention to the negative aspects of different groups waaay too much.

why not talk about the positive sides of different groups? wallahi, there would be so much more unity in the world if ppl talked about the positive aspects of different groups as much as they talkes about the negative!

[muslim786]

This not me with the problem here, I just hate people bringing the ulama into disrespute. Like I said this thread should be locked.

[Strive4Allah]

Assalmau alaikum
I think many ppl seem to misunderstand me because of the way I write.
I am going to write toi the forum people inshalah and find out about if it is really me at fault.
U said
Live4Allah please learn about what your ulama say about these things before attributing falsehood to them or are there really two types of deobandis.
According to you I am atributing false to them.Na'uzu billah.I suggest you ask some one else about it.Because to you This is what I do and so i do not wish to answer your question.
Too right bro seven

[muslim786]

Assalmau alaikum
I think many ppl seem to misunderstand me because of the way I write.
I am going to write toi the forum people inshalah and find out about if it is really me at fault.
U said
According to you I am atributing false to them.Na'uzu billah.I suggest you ask some one else about it.Because to you This is what I do and so i do not wish to answer your question.
Too right bro seven

You appear to contradict what they say. So to help clarify all this I have got my dear brother salman a deobandi tariqa follower to clear ure misconceptions up, Inshallah he will be posting soon.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

There is only one type of deoband, and they all agree with the validity of Tawassul or seeking means to Allah. This is what my teachers have told me and their teachers and so forth. As for the issue of conflict, that is only about the wording that is used i.e Istighata (Ya Shaikh Madad!). The concept is not debated on. Among those who allowed tawassul:

- Shaikh Rashid Ahmad al-Gangohi
- Shaikh Khalil Ahmad al-Saharanfuri
- Shaikh Mahmud Hasan Deobandi
- Shaikh Mir Ahmad Hasan Husayni
- Shaikh Aziz Aziz Al Deobandi
- My Shaikh, Maulana Ashraf Ali Tahanwi
- Shaikh Abdul Rahim Ranfuri
- Shaykh Muhammad Hasan Al Deobandi

Our Grand Shaikh, the Teacher of Maulana Ashraf Ali, Hajj Imdadullah used to say:

Ya Muhammad Mustafa Faryaad He
Ae Habeeb-e-Kibriya Faryaad He
Sakht Mushkil Me Phansa Hoon Aajkal
Ae Mere Mushkil Elisha Faryaad He

-- Ya Muhammad Mustafa I call out to you. O beloved of Allah I call out to you. I am in deep trouble these days. O my redresser of difficulties I call out to you. (Naala'e Imdaad Ghareeb Pg. 22)


Wallahu A'lam

[muslim786]

Thank you my dear an esteemed brother Salman. Inshallah people will learn from you.

Ya Nabi Maddad
Ya Habib Maddad

YA ALLAH YA ALLAH YA ALLAH MAY YOU SAVE US ALL

[Strive4Allah]

Sallamu Alaikum

There is only one type of deoband, and they all agree with the validity of Tawassul or seeking means to Allah. This is what my teachers have told me and their teachers and so forth. As for the issue of conflict, that is only about the wording that is used i.e Istighata (Ya Shaikh Madad!). The concept is not debated on. Among those who allowed tawassul:

- Shaikh Rashid Ahmad al-Gangohi
- Shaikh Khalil Ahmad al-Saharanfuri (d. 1927 CE)
- Shaikh Mahmud Hasan Deobandi
- Shaikh Mir Ahmad Hasan Husayni
- Shaikh Aziz Aziz Al Deobandi
- My Shaikh, Maulana Ashraf Ali Tahanwi
- Shaikh Abdul Rahim Ranfuri
- Shaykh Muhammad Hasan Al Deobandi

Our Grand Shaikh, the Teacher of Maulana Ashraf Ali, Hajj Imdadullah used to say:

Ya Muhammad Mustafa Faryaad He
Ae Habeeb-e-Kibriya Faryaad He
Sakht Mushkil Me Phansa Hoon Aajkal
Ae Mere Mushkil Elisha Faryaad He

-- Ya Muhammad Mustafa I call out to you. O beloved of Allah I call out to you. I am in deep trouble these days. O my redresser of difficulties I call out to you. (Naala'e Imdaad Ghareeb Pg. 22)


Wallahu A'lam

Yes.

[Strive4Allah]

Bro salman can u plz xplain the difference between mada and callin.
When we say rasoolallahi ji'tu ilaika or assalamu alaiaka ya rasoolalaha
and ya nabi madad.Btw I didnt say tawassul wasnt jaiz and also didnt say ya nabi madad was shirk.
Bro salman if oyu could plz do me a favour and tell me what I have said wrong inmy earliiar posts plz

[muslim786]

You have said the naats are full of shirk when they are NOT.

[muslim786]

Bro salman can u plz xplain the difference between mada and callin.
When we say rasoolallahi ji'tu ilaika or assalamu alaiaka ya rasoolalaha
and ya nabi madad.Btw I didnt say tawassul wasnt jaiz and also didnt say ya nabi madad was shirk.
Bro salman if oyu could plz do me a favour and tell me what I have said wrong inmy earliiar posts plz

so what was the point you are trying to make my sister in islam?

[Strive4Allah]

I dont think i said they are full of shirk but if i did use the word FULL i take back that word.I did say they have shirkiya kalimat in there.I am talking about the naats i know n have heard being played.Like check on nazmay theyve took all the shirkiya kalimaat out.How am I meant to know which naats you are talking about.
4rm 1-2 A nth&anth

[muslim786]

I dont think i said they are full of shirk but if i did use the word FULL i take back that word.I did say they have shirkiya kalimat in there.I am talking about the naats i know n have heard being played.Like check on nazmay theyve took all the shirkiya kalimaat out.How am I meant to know which naats you are talking about.
4rm 1-2 A nth&anth

Sister please clarify what you consider to fall into shirk? Because from what you have said you have condemed Hazrat ImdadAllah Makki RA into being a bidatai Nauzabillah.

[Strive4Allah]

Bro salman can u please tell me where I have gone wrong.
It doesnt matter any more about what point i WAS tryna make.We have some one more knwledgable n wise with us.U may ask him akhi fil islam.

[muslim786]

I know salman personally and I therefore know what he believes in, I just want you to realise your mistakes, its my duty as muslim live4allah to do so.

[Strive4Allah]

Sister please clarify what you consider to fall into shirk? Because from what you have said you have condemed Hazrat ImdadAllah Makki RA into being a bidatai Nauzabillah.
Look U have totally misunderstood me I didnt say haji imdadullahs naat was a shirki or bid'i.
Like I said according to you I shouldnt be mouthing and we have bro salman with us who you can turn to. inshallah.
And plz remember I am not banging about what you said to me in the other thread...Its jsut that we have ppl who know more and who you trust so it would be better if u asked them

[Strive4Allah]

Jazakallah.Ill be writing to SF soon to find out.Plz can some one point out my mistakes/faults so i may correct/al

[muslim786]

Look U have totally misunderstood me I didnt say haji imdadullahs naat was a shirki or bid'i.
Like I said according to you I shouldnt be mouthing and we have bro salman with us who you can turn to. inshallah.
And plz remember I am not banging about what you said to me in the other thread...Its jsut that we have ppl who know more and who you trust so it would be better if u asked them

No one ever has said anything more in any naat that has superceded what Imam ImdadAllah makki RA has said in his prayers and naats.
So either show me where the shirk was or kindly take back your words, thats all I ask.

[Strive4Allah]

Allahu akbar! How any times do I have to say I am not talking about those naatas am talking about the naats i have heard and many others listen to

[muslim786]

Allahu akbar! How any times do I have to say I am not talking about those naatas am talking about the naats i have heard and many others listen to

please tell me the names and authors of these naats then? It appears you have just come here to create fitnah and discord, earlier you CLEARLY STATED madad was shirk and now bro salman has told you otherwise so either tell me the exact words of these naats and who wrote them else take ure words fully back.

[Strive4Allah]

Can u plz show me where i said it was shirk?
I do not wish to add any thing more.coz u seem to be misunderstandin me all the way through...
Ok so i am causing fitnah here according to u so best say assalamu alaikum

the best amongst you is the one with the best akhlaaq

[muslim786]

U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah.Just the fact that all sorts go on in there.Ever listened to the naats being played there? And the na'aras with ya rasool madad? Does it make sense? Ofcourse not.

here

[muslim786]

Too true.They say his every where the prophet was a human and a body how can one person be in moscow and engalnd at the same time.They say ALLAHGAVE HIM THE POWERS.iLike what man. Allah is not a body he is noor and noor can be everwhere at one time. Just bang over the wrong end and blame molana ashraf ali thanvi that he said it.

<DELETED, check below>
Btw I have asked the Imam of Housnlow Mosque London and the Imam At VP in manchester about the above allegeations to the barelvis, and it seems you are greatly mistaken.
What they believe is that the Prophet SAWS has knowledge of what mankind is doing, BUT HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT EVERYWHERE.

And this is inline with ahle sunnah wal jammah fully 100%, just ask Shakyh Amjad Rasheed or anyone from the arab lands like Muhammad Al Yacobi who I have been fortunate to see many times, and also the many other tareqas in india who are neither deobandi or barelvi who also endorse the witnessing and hearing of the Prophet SAWS from near and far.

note from moderator:Refrain from insulting one another, defame, or flame-bait. This is not accepted within our forum. If you have a problem I advise you take care of this matter off the board.

[Strive4Allah]

Originally Posted by Live4Allah
U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah.Just the fact that all sorts go on in there.Ever listened to the naats being played there? And the na'aras with ya rasool madad? Does it make sense? Ofcourse not.


HERE U ARE MY SISTER.

U said i clearly stated it was shirk where does it say that

[muslim786]

if u link ure two posts that clearly what ure implying.

[salman]

Bro salman can u plz xplain the difference between mada and callin.
When we say rasoolallahi ji'tu ilaika or assalamu alaiaka ya rasoolalaha
and ya nabi madad.Btw I didnt say tawassul wasnt jaiz and also didnt say ya nabi madad was shirk.
Bro salman if oyu could plz do me a favour and tell me what I have said wrong inmy earliiar posts plz

Sallamu Alaikum

The issue of calling is not related to the word "Madad". The calling comes from the particle "Ya so and so" which means "Oh so and so". The word "Madad" simply means "help".

As for the mistakes you made:

Post #78 you said:


U tell me did the sahaba prophet tabi een and tabe tabe een do this? no and am sure we all know the definition of bid'ah.
All our ulama say it is bid'ah.Just the fact that all sorts go on in there.Ever listened to the naats being played there? And the na'aras with ya rasool madad? Does it make sense? Ofcourse not.

That is an incorrect analysis, since the definition of Bidah is not all inclusive, but specific to those actions that are clearly against the Sharia. The hadith:

"Every innovation leads to hellfire"

and other like it cannot be taken as proof that all innovated actions are wrong, since the word "kul" (every) doesnot necessarily denote "All" but can mean "Most" or "Alot". The scholars have stated that this principle is "al Umum Bi Mana al Khusus" or "the general/universal in terms of the specific". the Quran and hadith both support this.

Harmala ibn Yahya said: I heard Shafi saying:

-- Al bid`atu bid`atan: bid`a mahmuda wa bid`a madhmuma, fa ma waafaqa al-sunna fa huwa mahmud, wa ma khaalafa al sunna fa huwa madhmum.

Innovation is of two kinds: the praiseworthy innovation, and the blameworthy innovation. Whatever conforms to the Sunna is praiseworthy, and whatever contravenes the Sunna is blameworthy.

Fath Al Bari, Hilyat Al Awliya etc.

You stated on post # 79:


Allah is not a body he is noor and noor can be everwhere at one time

He is not everywhere, since that would saying he occupies space and time, somehting not attributed to Him. He is everywhere in the sense that He is aware of what we do due to His encompassing knowledge.

Post #87:


What does trhe prophet say ''when u ask for help,ask allah for help

This was a hadith nararted by Ibn Abbas, cited in Imam Nawawis Riyadh As Salihin (Hadith 19), Tirmidhis sunan (Hasan Sahih) and Musnad Ahmad . The concept of Tawassul does not contradict the above, but merely states the one being called upon is an intermediary between the person calling and Allah due to his high rank in Allahs eyes. In reality help is being sought from Allah, since the one being called upon doesnot possess any power to provide. It is similar to the hadith:

"Help is not sought from me, but from Allah."

In reality the above hadith means that "Help comes from Allah," even though the Prophet may be the one who supplicated for you and so forth. It is similar to the Quranic verse:

"You did not throw, but Allah threw" which shows that the throwing was because of the Power of Allah and His will to let it happen.

Wallahu a'lam

[Strive4Allah]

Btw I have asked the Imam of Housnlow Mosque London and the Imam At VP in manchester about the above allegeations to the barelvis, and it seems you are greatly mistaken.
What they believe is that the Prophet SAWS has knowledge of what mankind is doing, BUT HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT EVERYWHERE.
Huh! Ya Allah.
O.k I am wrong and I am mistaken and I make false wahtevers and all.wassalam

[muslim786]

Thank you brother Salman again.

[muslim786]

Btw I have asked the Imam of Housnlow Mosque London and the Imam At VP in manchester about the above allegeations to the barelvis, and it seems you are greatly mistaken.
What they believe is that the Prophet SAWS has knowledge of what mankind is doing, BUT HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT EVERYWHERE.
Huh! Ya Allah.
O.k I am wrong and I am mistaken and I make false wahtevers and all.wassalam

please take a more decent approach to being critised.

[Strive4Allah]

Shukran bro salmaan may allah reward you.alf alf. reward.Just wanted to say if you go back a bit ull see that i said we cant call every new thing a bidah.sumat like that.fA AINA MA TUWALLU FA THAMMA WAJHULLAH.lIGHT DOES NOT REQ SPCE.
iNSAHLLAH I WONT BE SAYING ANYTHING MRE coz we have bro salman with us who is more knowledgeable
once agan jzk soo soo much for pointing out where i was goin wrong
u have my duas.

[muslim786]

May Allah guide you and all of us to the truth InshAllah.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

we're allowed to make mistakes, but we should take naseeha and thank the person for giving it to you. Though if you get upset over it its your ego and its hurting you, though the person that said it should also find a better way to say it without insulting you.

In the time of the Prophet SAW and the Companions (RA), see how they dealt with people, especially when one was in error. Did they insult them and call them names? Did that help the person become a better person? Or did they say something to them in a way that they would understand, and not think that they are saying this to me to hurt me, but they are helping me. Meaning, tell them in a way that you are not saying I'm pointing this at you, but just in general.

There was an old man making wudu and he was doing it wrong, and some children saw him. Instead of these children going up to the man saying you're dumb because you dont know how to make wudu at your age, etc. or how come you dont know? and whats wrong with you? No..Instead..
they went up to him and asked him to watch them do the wudu to see whether or not it was correct or not. You see this, this is clever the old man saw the way the kids made it and realized his mistake. He also realized that these kids knew how to make wudu and was just pointing out to him his mistake without insulting him. By this he was happy, he appreciated it and this is how we should handle things and matters.

Insha'Allah.

[Strive4Allah]

Yes Read what I said in the other thread ''if a person truly cares about them self theyll take all rude good and bad.
Yes I know I am at fault but then ummibhi what about the accuz?
jazaklah for the reminder anyways

[Strive4Allah]

Umme ibhi the wise
says it right.
shukran

[muslim786]

assalamu alaikum wr wb

we're allowed to make mistakes, but we should take naseeha and thank the person for giving it to you. Though if you get upset over it its your ego and its hurting you, though the person that said it should also find a better way to say it without insulting you.

In the time of the Prophet SAW and the Companions (RA), see how they dealt with people, especially when one was in error. Did they insult them and call them names? Did that help the person become a better person? Or did they say something to them in a way that they would understand, and not think that they are saying this to me to hurt me, but they are helping me. Meaning, tell them in a way that you are not saying I'm pointing this at you, but just in general.

There was an old man making wudu and he was doing it wrong, and some children saw him. Instead of these children going up to the man saying you're dumb because you dont know how to make wudu at your age, etc. or how come you dont know? and whats wrong with you? No..Instead..
they went up to him and asked him to watch them do the wudu to see whether or not it was correct or not. You see this, this is clever the old man saw the way the kids made it and realized his mistake. He also realized that these kids knew how to make wudu and was just pointing out to him his mistake without insulting him. By this he was happy, he appreciated it and this is how we should handle things and matters.

Insha'Allah.

Thanks for the advice sister. I was not rude in anyway maybe a but forceful and in future inshallah I will refrain from doing so. But when ulama anc complex islamic issues are brought into disrepute like this I am not the one to stand down to such unslaught and lies like this. The truth hurts, but has to be told the way it is.

[Strive4Allah]

Getting angry at someone for Allah!!1
Is it that?

[muslim786]

Getting angry at someone for Allah!!1
Is it that?
I am not angry but upset about what you have done because you may not realise but it causes friction.

[Strive4Allah]

I did not mean to at all.Inshallah in the future I will try and be more carefull

[muslim786]

Im sorry its just that I have seen all this bickering and misunderstanding flying arounf too much. Again I am sorry for being harsh to you. And I would like to thank you for showing respect and understanding, you truly do appear to be wise at heart thanks, and I hope you understand where I am coming from.

[Strive4Allah]

Hmm..I know where you are coming from.Bro no prob about being harsh.Read what I said in the age thread one who really REALLY cares about him/her self takes all from people.
Make dua....And I apologise for anything I said wrong. Perhaps I should be more clear when posting so ppl dont misunderstand me wallahu aalam
No need to say sorry.

[muslim786]

Hmm..I know where you are coming from.Bro no prob about being harsh.Read what I said in the age thread one who really REALLY cares about him/her self takes all from people.
Make dua....And I apologise for anything I said wrong. Perhaps I should be more clear when posting so ppl dont misunderstand me wallahu aalam
No need to say sorry.

don't worry sister, i too seem to make this same mistakes. shoot first ask questions later. we can all improve INSHALLAH.

[Strive4Allah]

Jazakallah.
And jazakallah to the other brother too.

[Muawiyah]

Hadhrat Haji Sahib Imdadullah's poems are no proof because:

1) Haji Sahib Rahimahullah was not a faqeeh (refer to the words of the Faqeeh ul Hind Hadhrat Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi Rahimahullah in Majalis Hakeem us Islaam page 129)

2) Poetry is never meant to be taken upon the apparent meaning

ALL our Ulama hold Istighatha from Ghayrullah to be wrong. Tawassul however, is a completely different concept and our Ulama allow it.

[muslim786]

Hadhrat Haji Sahib Imdadullah's poems are no proof because:

1) Haji Sahib Rahimahullah was not a faqeeh (refer to the words of the Faqeeh ul Hind Hadhrat Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi Rahimahullah in Majalis Hakeem us Islaam page 129)

2) Poetry is never meant to be taken upon the apparent meaning

ALL our Ulama hold Istighatha from Ghayrullah to be wrong. Tawassul however, is a completely different concept and our Ulama allow it.

This would appear to contradict what brother Salmany who I can tell you is a hugely knowledgable deobandi, please can you elaborate your stance.

[Strive4Allah]

Yahooo!
He was not aalim too.
You know its something u say outav soo much love for a person/prophet/allah like mansoor said anal haq.p.s i am not fitting both things here just e.g might be wrong.
But today most of all what av said is not from me.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

The poem is explicit with no room for any other interpretations. It is a form of expression in which the caller has used the terms used in Istighata. As for Hajji sahib not being a Faqih, suffice to say he was one of the giants of Tasawwuf, far is he from doing something even remotely close to Shirk or something his Madhab forbade. Secondly, similar expression were used by Shaikh Nanotwi and Maulana Ashraf Ali, who said it in the form of a supplication and not a poem.

Lastly, i have already stated that there is a clear difference of opinion when it comes to the concept of Istighata, although the concept of Wasila itself is accepted by the Deobandi Ulema. Mufti Ibrahim Desais latest fatwas on Istighata permits it. To generalise and say that ALL the Ulema of Deoband forbids Istighata is incorrect.

Wallahu A'lam

[muslim786]

Yahooo!
He was not aalim too.
You know its something u say outav soo much love for a person/prophet/allah like mansoor said anal haq.p.s i am not fitting both things here just e.g might be wrong.
But today most of all what av said is not from me.

what are you yahoooing about sister. please stay good and not resort back to ill manners.
Hazrat ImdadAllah Makki was an alim please stop belittling this giant of Islam.

[Strive4Allah]

I am not trying to opp bro salman. Just saying that same with mansoor ofcourse we cant suspect him of saying any thing bad he said anal haq out of soo much love for allah.will we then permit/allow it.
plz no arguments.just want to know if am right in what i have just said...

[Strive4Allah]

I am not yahooing about anything brother.Just yahooing about something i remembered about haji imdadullah.Bro I do not use ill manners.And am sure u must know that by now.
alhamdulillah

[muslim786]

your saying he aint an alim, that is disrespect enough for me. He was an alim and hes speacialty was tassawuf.

[Strive4Allah]

Bro there you go i think youve misunderstood the other bro when we say aalim here we mean the urfi aalim who has done the course.I thnk so.No it is not be adabi to say he is not an aalim on my side wallahu aalam

[muslim786]

Bro there you go i think youve misunderstood the other bro when we say aalim here we mean the urfi aalim who has done the course.I thnk so.No it is not be adabi to say he is not an aalim on my side wallahu aalam

he may not have been a faqih but he was an ALIM. So it was an issue with what u said not bro mauyaia.

[Strive4Allah]

what are you yahoooing about sister. please stay good and not resort back to ill manners.
Hazrat ImdadAllah Makki was an alim please stop belittling this giant of Islam.
you dont know what i remebered about him so plzdont accuse me of belittling him i know if we use our tongue against those saints of allah thats the end khasiraddunya wa aakhira

[Strive4Allah]

he may not have been a faqih but he was an ALIM. So it was an issue with what u said not bro mauyaia.
Agen i am saying alim e urfi if some one were to aski me reg him i would say he was even greater in stage then aalims coz aalims used to go to him wallahu aalam

[muslim786]

you dont know what i remebered about him so plzdont accuse me of belittling him i know if we use our tongue against those saints of allah thats the end khasiraddunya wa aakhira

Yo say yahooo and then you say he wasn't an alim, this is clear as daylight and an insult. Stop trying to riggle out of your faults and please admit you are wrong, acceptqance is always the first step to being cured.

[Strive4Allah]

I said yahoo at some thing i remembered and you dont knw what ir emebered coz obviously i havent even said it ona.Bro y am i being accused for?
Not being an aalime urfi is no big deal its whats with allah and am not yahooing on that
looks at quran**

[Strive4Allah]

allah is aalimul ghaib and he knows what i was yahooing at and i dont need to prove it to anyone and alhamdulillah i accept my faults even accept it when its not my fault hadeeth man tawaza'a lillahi rafa'ahullahu

[muslim786]

you say "Yahooo!
He was not aalim too"

whats someone sposed to think on this?

[Strive4Allah]

Hmm
hold...

[Muawiyah]

Hadhrat Haji Sahib Rahimahullah was a mujahid fi sabeelillah, abid, zahid and according to our ghalib zun he was one of the awliyaa of Allah. But despite this he wasn't an 'aalim and he frequently fell into states of jazb it is not an insult at all to say this, it's the truth.

[salman]

I am not trying to opp bro salman. Just saying that same with mansoor ofcourse we cant suspect him of saying any thing bad he said anal haq out of soo much love for allah.will we then permit/allow it.
plz no arguments.just want to know if am right in what i have just said...

Sallamu Alaikum

The case of Mansur Al Hallaj - Allah bless him - cannot be compared with that of Hajji Imdadullah - allah be pleased with him - due to the varying circumstances. Even if Istighata is not permitted by the deobandis, it still does not amount to undeniable shirk. I have already stated on a number of occasions that the cocnept of Wasila is accepted by the deobandi Ulema, as brother Muawiyah can also tell. It is only the wording of the Wasila that people have differed on.

As for al Hallaj as Abu Mansur Baghdadi said in al-Farq bayn al-firaq, "the case of al-Hallaj is complex." This is because there were political interests at stake in his execution.

[Strive4Allah]

Yes agree with you he was a majzoob.And it is not disrespect.My father always says he was not an aalim urfi but he was great.

[Strive4Allah]

Erm i was not trying to fit both ere.But jazakallah khairan for your explanation.Mashallah zaadakallahu ilman wa fahman.

[muslim786]

So there would appear to be two types of deobandis afterall?

[Strive4Allah]

I didnt even mean to make it rhyme like as if yahoo he wasnt an aalim too.
i said it coz bro muawiyah said and it clikd so i meant he wasnt an aalim too.U have to forgive my writng please Its the way I do it that ppl misunderstand inshallah once again will try n be more carefull inshalah

[salman]

Hadhrat Haji Sahib Rahimahullah was a mujahid fi sabeelillah, abid, zahid and according to our ghalib zun he was one of the awliyaa of Allah. But despite this he wasn't an 'aalim and he frequently fell into states of jazb it is not an insult at all to say this, it's the truth.

Sallamu Alaikum

Many of the Sufiyya fell into states of Jazba, such as Ibn Abd Salam, the Sultan al Awliya, Faqih and Muhaddith, who used to go to poetic recitals and dance in states of ectacy, sama'a. The examples are plentiful.

Why is it that Qasim Al Nanotiwi said:

-- Help me Oh grace of Ahmad, since excepting you
There is none who can be of any help to Qaasim.

and:

-- Plead with him if it is something you want from Allah

and

-- Who will come to my help if you do not?

(Qasaid qasimee)

And why is it that my great Shaikh, Maulana Ashraf used to say:

-- Oh you who intercede on behalf of slaves!
Please come to my rescue.
You are my last hope of help in every distress,
There is no one else to protect me ecept you.
Oh my leader, my master, listens to my needs and complaints,
Oh Prophet of Allah, bail me out of my miseries

Wallahu A'lam

[Strive4Allah]

Wseelah?
And i am not too sure but i think bro muawiyah was trying to say about him being an urfi aalim.wallahu aalam

[muslim786]

Sallamu Alaikum

Many of the Sufiyya fell into states of Jazba, such as Ibn Abd Salam, the Sultan al Awliya, Faqih and Muhaddith, who used to go to poetic recitals and dance in states of ectacy, sama'a. The examples are plentiful.

Why is it that Qasim Al Nanotiwi said:

-- Help me Oh grace of Ahmad, since excepting you
There is none who can be of any help to Qaasim.

and:

-- Plead with him if it is something you want from Allah

and

-- Who will come to my help if you do not?

(Qasaid qasimee)

And why is it that my great Shaikh, Maulana Ashraf used to say:

-- Oh you who intercede on behalf of slaves!
Please come to my rescue.
You are my last hope of help in every distress,
There is no one else to protect me ecept you.
Oh my leader, my master, listens to my needs and complaints,
Oh Prophet of Allah, bail me out of my miseries

Wallahu A'lam

Then why do bro mo and sister live4allah disagree with this BUT yet claim to be deobandi?

[Strive4Allah]

I am deobandi.But that doesnt mean that...hold on...

[salman]

Sallam

Because there is ikhtilaf on this issue.


-- Q. Is it correct to say to dead people (saints, etc.), at their graves, that "O so and so, make dua to Allah for me".

Is it correct to say to dead people (saints, etc.), at their graves, that "O so and so, make dua to Allah for me". For example, is it correct to say, at the grave of Rasool Allah (SAW), "Ya Rasool Allah (SAW), make dua to Allah to grant me this or that". Is this permissible? I have read your standard reply on Tawassul, but i would really appreciate it if you told me whether or not the above statement is permissible?


Answer 6880 2002-10-12

A. Yes, this is permissible as long as you are not asking Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) or saints directly.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai




http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6880

[muslim786]

Well I am off for now, but I have realised what I always suspected there are two types of deobandis.

[Strive4Allah]

d d d d....
The prophets r alive in their graves!
i am askin a ques here does it have nethin to with those who say ya rasoolallah is alowed to prophet n ya not to other saints.only asking please dont take me wrong

[Strive4Allah]

Well I am off for now, but I have realised what I always suspected there are two types of deobandis.
?

[muslim786]

BTW no one to my knowledge asks our beloved Rasool Allah to grant them something directly, maybe some ignorant people may do this but the Imams do not allow it.
In fact I know many shaikhs that advice not to do dua at graves because of people misunderstanding or abusing the adab. asking for help and being granted something are two different things.

[Strive4Allah]

BTW no one to my knowledge asks our beloved Rasool Allah to grant them something directly, maybe some ignorant people may do this but the Imams do not allow it.
In fact I know many shaikhs that advice not to do dua at graves because of people misunderstanding or abusing the adab.
True.Because obviously got to look at zahir.

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

I will try to make this clearer.

Wasila - Seeking means to Allah through a medium.

There are a few types:

1. Through ones deeds, such as the men in cave, as mentioned in the Quran.
2. Through the duas of the living.
3. Through those who have passed away.

One and Two, there is no dispute about. The wordings of Wasila for Three is where differences arise. Some say that we should say:

-- Oh Allah through the honor of so and so in your presence grant me fulan fulan (with the term Ya Allah). (1)

Others also say:

-- Oh RasulAllah/Awliyah Madad

Basically this is an abridgment of:

-- Oh RasulaAllah/Awliyah please ask/make Dua to Allah to grant me such and such (with the term Ya Rasula Allah, this is known as Istighata). (2)

Point 1 has been unanimously accepted by ALL except the Wahabis whose opinions carry no wieght in this discussion. Point 2 is differed upon, although Mufti Desai clearly allow it through the Prophets and the Saints aswell, which is clear in his reply.

Wallahu A'lam

[Strive4Allah]

. asking for help and being granted something are two different things.

What made oyu say this? Its right though

[Strive4Allah]

Sallamu Alaikum

I will try to make this clearer.

Wasila - Seeking means to Allah through a medium.

There are a few types:

1. Through ones deeds, such as the men in cave, as mentioned in the Quran.
2. Through the duas of the living.
3. Through those who have passed away.

One and Two, there is no dispute about. The wordings of Wasila for Three is where differences arise. Some say that we should say:

-- Oh Allah through the honor of so and so in your presence grant me fulan fulan (with the term Ya Allah). (1)

Others also say:

-- Oh RasulAllah/Awliyah Madad

Basically this is an abridgment of:

-- Oh RasulaAllah/Awliyah please ask/make Dua to Allah to grant me such and such (with the term Ya Rasula Allah, this is known as Istighata). (2)

Point 1 has been unanimously accepted by ALL except the Wahabis whose opinions carries no weith. Point 2 is differed upon, although Mufti Desai clearly allow it through the Prophets and the Saints aswell, which is clear in his reply.

Wallahu A'lam
Jazakallah I got your point ages ago though.

[Strive4Allah]

post 116 or 166 i think. answer?

[muslim786]

What made oyu say this? Its right though
I wanted to clarify what people mean when they say Maddad.

[Strive4Allah]

Madad.right.ok

[muslim786]

man i should go this is becoming unhealthy. been spending too much time qaubbling

[Strive4Allah]

Got 20 mins to go....I think I did learn alot from this thingy riot or whatever.debate or whatever

[Strive4Allah]

Post number 166

[salman]

d d d d....
The prophets r alive in their graves!
i am askin a ques here does it have nethin to with those who say ya rasoolallah is alowed to prophet n ya not to other saints.only asking please dont take me wrong

Sallam

The belief of Ahly sunnah is the Prophets are alive in their graves. As for the statement that to ask other saints is not allowed, that is incorrect.

Wallahu a'lam

[Strive4Allah]

Ok jazakallah btw the ya statement for saints thing is not my statement.jazakalah anyways

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

okay, just finished reading through the last 10 pages! Okay, so now let me just give you a feq quotes from prominent Deobandi scholars.

[Abu Usama]

Molvi Ashraf Ali Thanvi in Nashrut Tayyib on Page 247 writes,

“There is not a single day when the Prophet (saw) doesn’t see his ummatis actions day and night”

Haji Imdad Ullah Muhajir Makki in Shamaim-e-Imdaadiya on Page 81 writes,

“After the death of my peer, I still gained from him like when he was alive. It is like my peer said, “You can gain from me after my death like you did when I was alive.”

Molvi M. Zakariyya in his book ‘Fazail-e-Hajj’ on Page 227 writes,

“Abu Abdullah bin Jala’ said that I once went to Madinah Tayyibah. I arrived at the holy shrine of the Prophet (saw) and said, “Oh Prophet of Allah! I am your guest and then I felt tired. In my dream I saw that the Holy Prophet (saw) gave me a chapatti. I ate half of the chapatti whilst dreaming and the other half was in my hand when I woke up.”

[seven]

your point???

[Abu Usama]

just interesting quotes i thought

[GenN]

:eek:

i wasnt able to come online for about 24 hours and theres 12 more pages to read through on this thread. :eek:

[salman]

:eek:

i wasnt able to come online for about 24 hours and theres 12 more pages to read through on this thread. :eek:

heheh, you shouldve been here akhi, i would be replying to something on page 8 (which wudve been the last page) when i wud post my reply we'd be on page 11. :rolleyes:

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

:eek:

i wasnt able to come online for about 24 hours and theres 12 more pages to read through on this thread. :eek:

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

Hey I was only gone for a few hours and came back to 5 pages more to read and im shocked. Are you guys trying to publish a book?

[Muawiyah]

Firstly dear brothers, that istighatha from ghayrullah is haraam, is a very
clear masilah of the Quraan and Sunnah. The akaabir of Deoband made it their
life’s work to clarify this masilah. However even if bil-fardh someone speaks
against it, taqleed is made in fiqh and not in aqeedah.

As for tawassul of the Ambiyaa 'alyhim us salaam or the Awliyaa Rahimahumullah
in Dua to Allah Ta'ala, that is an altogether different thing. Saying biHurmati
fulaan or biHaqqi Fulan does not necessitate that fulan is listening at the
time and if it is said from afar it does not necessitate that fulan is Haadhir
wa Naazir, saying: Ya fulan madad, does necessitate these things.

In the third matter of whether it is allowed for someone near the grave of a
Nabi or a Wali to ask the person in the grave to make dua for hi, our akaabir
ulama hold that it is allowed in case of the Ambiyaa alyhimussalaam (see for
example Zubdat ul Manasik of Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi Rahimahullah).
However there is difference of opinion in whether this is allowed in respect of
the awliyaa. Two of the akaabir who hold it to be disallowed in respect of the
non-ambiyaa are Hadhrat Hakeem ul Ummah Maulana Ashraf ‘Ali Thanwi Rahimahullah
and Mufti Kifayatullah Dehlavi Rahimahullah.

As for poetry, the Ulama wrote it with the intention of reciting it before the
rawdha mubarak or while imagining themselves in front of the rawdha mubarak. In
any case the poetry is written to convey emotions not aqaid and the words of
poetry are often taken in their majaazi meanings. Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hadeeth
Maulana Zakriyah Rahimahullah has written a risalah where he has explained this
point in detail, it is titled “Akaabir Ulama Deoband”.


Finally the three quotes prove belief in Rasoolullah Sallalaahu alyhi wa Sallam
being Haadhir wa Naazir or istighatha from ghayrullah, only in the day dreams of
the ghayr muqallideen.

There is not a single day when the Prophet (saw) doesn’t see his ummatis actions
day and night”

Because the actions of the Ummah are presented to Rasoolullah Sallalaahu
‘alyhi wa Sallam

Mian Ji Noor Muhammad said, “You will be able to derive the same benefit from my
grave that you derive from me in my life”

What benefit did Haji Sahib derive from his Shaykh in his lifetime? Note that
Mian Ji Noor Muhammad did not say, “I will give you benefit..” but “You will be
able to derive benefit…”. They are talking of spiritual haalaat. Hadhrat Haji
sahib felt the same spiritual condition by making ziyarah of his Shaykh’s grave,
that he used to feel when he visited his Shaykh when he was alive. See
Anfaas-e-Eesaa of Hadhrat Hakeem ul Ummah Maulana Ashraf ‘Ali Thanwi
Rahimahullah for details.

Note that Hadhrat Haji Sahib Imdadullah, Hadhrat Mian Ji Noor Muhammad and his
Shaykh Hadhrat Shah Abd ur Raheem Wilayati Shaheed Rahimahumullah were all
murideen of Hadhrat Sayyid Ahmad Shaheed Raiberailvi Rahimahullah, in the
Muhammadi silsilah and Hadhrat Mian Ji Noor Muhammad and his Shaykh Hadhrat Shah
Abd ur Raheem Wilayati Shaheed were both granted khilafah.

No. 3 is a Karaamah of Abu Abdullah bin Jala’ and a miracle of Rasoolullah
Sallalaahu ‘alyhi wa Sallam

Shaykh ul Islaam Ibn Taimiyah Rahimahullah writes in al-Furqaan bayna alwliyaa
ur Rahmaani wa awliyaa ush Shaytaan that in the days of hurah Saeed ibn al-Musayyib
rahimahullah used to hear the sound of the Azaan from the grave of Rasoolullah
Sallalaahu alyhi wa sallam even though the Masjid un Nabawi would be empty and
there would be no one except him in the Masjid.

Now I leave you with a quote from Tafseer 'Azizi of Hadhrat Maulana Shah 'Abd
ul-Aziz Muhaddith Dehlavi Rahimahullah



وانبیاء و*مرسلین علیهم السلام را لوازم الوهیت از علم غیب، و*شنیدن فریاد هر کس در
هر جاء، و*قدرت بر جمیع مقدورات ثابت کنند



And they (the mushrikeen) hold the Prophets and the Messengers [May Salutations
be upon them] to have the qualities of divinity like the knowledge of the
unseen, and the hearing the cry of everyone from everywhere, and the ability to
do everything.

And from the fataawaa of Maulana Abd ul Hayy Lukhnawi Rahimahullah:




فی الواقع ہمچو اعتقاد که حضرات انبیاء و*اولیاء هر وقت حاضر و*ناظر*اند و*بهمه حال
بر نداء ما مطلع میشوند۔ اگرچه از بعید باشد شرک است چه این صفت از مختصات حق جل
جلاله است که رادران شرکت نیست
مجموعة الفتاوى ج ١ ص ٣٤٥


And in truth, to keep such a belief that the Prophets 'alyhimussalaam and the
Saints are ever-present all the time and they hear our calls in every condition
even though they may be called from afar, is Shirk. Because this is from Allah's
special attributes which no else shares with Him.




سوال اگر کسے اعتقاد دارد کہ ارواح مشائخ حاضر*اند و هر چیز میدانند بحق اوچه حکم
است؟

جواب؛ او کافر است - في البزازية من قال ارواح المشائخ حاضرون يعلمون يكفر - انتهٰی
مجموعة الفتاوى ج ٥


Question: If someone has the belief that the spirits of the saints are
everpresent and all-knowing what is the ruling on him?
Answer: He is a Kaafir. In (fataawaa) al-Bazaziyah it has occurred that the
person who believes that the souls of the saints are ever-present or all-knowing
is a kaafir.

[Abu Usama]

hmmm, interesting....

Brother, what do you make of the following quote?

Shaikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith-e-Dehlwi (May Allah be pleased with him) writes:

“Even though many differences have now appeared in the Muslim ummah, the scholars of all sects remain united in the belief that the Prophet of Allah (Peace be upon him) is physically alive in his blessed grave and he is Haadir wa Naadir upon the actions of his ummah. The Dear Prophet distributes blessings to all those who turn to him in need”.
(Maktoobaat (no. 18), Akhbar-ul-Akhyar page 155)

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

(bukhari)

Ch 19, #2030 => Narrated Abu Dhar (RAA) that he heard the Prophet (SAW) saying "If someone accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him Fasiq, a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr (disbelief), such an accusation will revert to him (the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent."

Ch 20, #2032 => Narrated Hudhaifa (RAA) I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying "A qattat (is a person who conveys disagreeable, false information from one person to another with the intention of causing harm and enmity between them) will not enter Paradise."

Ch 28, #2041 => Narrated Abu Hurairah (RAA) The Prophet (SAW) said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

Jazakallah Akhi Muawiyah for the quotes. However, i think you have misunderstood me. Firstly, i never stated the the concept of Istighata is something accepted by All the Ulema, but something on which there is great Ikhtilaf. Secondly, i was not referring to a specific place where it is done (at the Prophets grave or somewhere else), but only regarding the wording "Ya So and so Madad" which some of the ( if not the majority) Deobandi scholars do not completely agree with. Lastly, the belief that the Prophet is Haadhir Wa Naazir is incorrect, something which there is no ikhtilaf on in the Deobandi school. We all completely agree ont his, although he is made "Aware" of our deeds.

Lastly, I do Tawassul in the way expressed by Qadi Abu Yusuf with the wording, 'Oh Allah By the honor of so and so in your presence,' etc.

Wallahu A'lam

[Strive4Allah]

Firstly dear brothers, that istighatha from ghayrullah is haraam, is a very
clear masilah of the Quraan and Sunnah. The akaabir of Deoband made it their
life’s work to clarify this masilah. However even if bil-fardh someone speaks
against it, taqleed is made in fiqh and not in aqeedah.

As for tawassul of the Ambiyaa 'alyhim us salaam or the Awliyaa Rahimahumullah
in Dua to Allah Ta'ala, that is an altogether different thing. Saying biHurmati
fulaan or biHaqqi Fulan does not necessitate that fulan is listening at the
time and if it is said from afar it does not necessitate that fulan is Haadhir
wa Naazir, saying: Ya fulan madad, does necessitate these things.

In the third matter of whether it is allowed for someone near the grave of a
Nabi or a Wali to ask the person in the grave to make dua for hi, our akaabir
ulama hold that it is allowed in case of the Ambiyaa alyhimussalaam (see for
example Zubdat ul Manasik of Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi Rahimahullah).
However there is difference of opinion in whether this is allowed in respect of
the awliyaa. Two of the akaabir who hold it to be disallowed in respect of the
non-ambiyaa are Hadhrat Hakeem ul Ummah Maulana Ashraf ‘Ali Thanwi Rahimahullah
and Mufti Kifayatullah Dehlavi Rahimahullah.

As for poetry, the Ulama wrote it with the intention of reciting it before the
rawdha mubarak or while imagining themselves in front of the rawdha mubarak. In
any case the poetry is written to convey emotions not aqaid and the words of
poetry are often taken in their majaazi meanings. Hadhrat Shaykh ul Hadeeth
Maulana Zakriyah Rahimahullah has written a risalah where he has explained this
point in detail, it is titled “Akaabir Ulama Deoband”.


Finally the three quotes prove belief in Rasoolullah Sallalaahu alyhi wa Sallam
being Haadhir wa Naazir or istighatha from ghayrullah, only in the day dreams of
the ghayr muqallideen.

There is not a single day when the Prophet (saw) doesn’t see his ummatis actions
day and night”

Because the actions of the Ummah are presented to Rasoolullah Sallalaahu
‘alyhi wa Sallam

Mian Ji Noor Muhammad said, “You will be able to derive the same benefit from my
grave that you derive from me in my life”

What benefit did Haji Sahib derive from his Shaykh in his lifetime? Note that
Mian Ji Noor Muhammad did not say, “I will give you benefit..” but “You will be
able to derive benefit…”. They are talking of spiritual haalaat. Hadhrat Haji
sahib felt the same spiritual condition by making ziyarah of his Shaykh’s grave,
that he used to feel when he visited his Shaykh when he was alive. See
Anfaas-e-Eesaa of Hadhrat Hakeem ul Ummah Maulana Ashraf ‘Ali Thanwi
Rahimahullah for details.

Note that Hadhrat Haji Sahib Imdadullah, Hadhrat Mian Ji Noor Muhammad and his
Shaykh Hadhrat Shah Abd ur Raheem Wilayati Shaheed Rahimahumullah were all
murideen of Hadhrat Sayyid Ahmad Shaheed Raiberailvi Rahimahullah, in the
Muhammadi silsilah and Hadhrat Mian Ji Noor Muhammad and his Shaykh Hadhrat Shah
Abd ur Raheem Wilayati Shaheed were both granted khilafah.

No. 3 is a Karaamah of Abu Abdullah bin Jala’ and a miracle of Rasoolullah
Sallalaahu ‘alyhi wa Sallam

Shaykh ul Islaam Ibn Taimiyah Rahimahullah writes in al-Furqaan bayna alwliyaa
ur Rahmaani wa awliyaa ush Shaytaan that in the days of hurah Saeed ibn al-Musayyib
rahimahullah used to hear the sound of the Azaan from the grave of Rasoolullah
Sallalaahu alyhi wa sallam even though the Masjid un Nabawi would be empty and
there would be no one except him in the Masjid.

Now I leave you with a quote from Tafseer 'Azizi of Hadhrat Maulana Shah 'Abd
ul-Aziz Muhaddith Dehlavi Rahimahullah



وانبیاء و*مرسلین علیهم السلام را لوازم الوهیت از علم غیب، و*شنیدن فریاد هر کس در
هر جاء، و*قدرت بر جمیع مقدورات ثابت کنند



And they (the mushrikeen) hold the Prophets and the Messengers [May Salutations
be upon them] to have the qualities of divinity like the knowledge of the
unseen, and the hearing the cry of everyone from everywhere, and the ability to
do everything.

And from the fataawaa of Maulana Abd ul Hayy Lukhnawi Rahimahullah:




فی الواقع ہمچو اعتقاد که حضرات انبیاء و*اولیاء هر وقت حاضر و*ناظر*اند و*بهمه حال
بر نداء ما مطلع میشوند۔ اگرچه از بعید باشد شرک است چه این صفت از مختصات حق جل
جلاله است که رادران شرکت نیست
مجموعة الفتاوى ج ١ ص ٣٤٥


And in truth, to keep such a belief that the Prophets 'alyhimussalaam and the
Saints are ever-present all the time and they hear our calls in every condition
even though they may be called from afar, is Shirk. Because this is from Allah's
special attributes which no else shares with Him.




سوال اگر کسے اعتقاد دارد کہ ارواح مشائخ حاضر*اند و هر چیز میدانند بحق اوچه حکم
است؟

جواب؛ او کافر است - في البزازية من قال ارواح المشائخ حاضرون يعلمون يكفر - انتهٰی
مجموعة الفتاوى ج ٥


Question: If someone has the belief that the spirits of the saints are
everpresent and all-knowing what is the ruling on him?
Answer: He is a Kaafir. In (fataawaa) al-Bazaziyah it has occurred that the
person who believes that the souls of the saints are ever-present or all-knowing
is a kaafir.


My word!!1
Jazakallah

[Strive4Allah]

Sallamu Alaikum

Jazakallah Akhi Muawiyah for the quotes. However, i think you have misunderstood me. Firstly, i never stated the the concept of Istighata is something accepted by All the Ulema, but something on which there is great Ikhtilaf. Secondly, i was not referring to a specific place where it is done (at the Prophets grave or somewhere else), but only regarding the wording "Ya So and so Madad" which some of the ( if not the majority) Deobandi scholars do not completely agree with. Lastly, the belief that the Prophet is Haadhir Wa Naazir is incorrect, something which there is no ikhtilaf on in the Deobandi school. We all completely agree ont his, although he is made "Aware" of our deeds.

Lastly, I do Tawassul in the way expressed by Qadi Abu Yusuf with the wording, 'Oh Allah By the honor of so and so in your presence,' etc.

Wallahu A'lam

Qadhi ABU yUSUF?

[Strive4Allah]

Oh my twenty pages!!!

[anfaas]

Sidi Muawiya,

Assalam`alaykum,

>Originally Posted by Muawiyah

>Firstly dear brothers, that istighatha from ghayrullah is haraam, is a very
>clear masilah of the Quraan and Sunnah. The akaabir of Deoband made it >their life’s work to clarify this masilah. However even if bil-fardh someone >speaks against it, taqleed is made in fiqh and not in aqeedah

Seems like apparently all the scholars of www.sunnipath.com are promoting *haraam*[sic] - against the *clear* teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and what you term as "life's work - of akaabir of Deoband", probably you should give a Fatwa against sunnipath or even against the Deobandi Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam now based on the views of the akaabir of Deoband.

Further If a Deobandi Mufti goes against the "Life's work" of the akaabireen then is he a Deobandi anymore?

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002164.aspx
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002098.aspx
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00004009.aspx
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00003930.aspx

For the benefit of others - Yes - I am being sarcastic

Wassalam,

anfaas

[Strive4Allah]

Further If a Deobandi Mufti goes against the "Life's work" of the akaabireen then is he a Deobandi anymore?

Lifes work? Like what can u plz explain?

Seems like apparently all the scholars of www.sunnipath.com are promoting *haraam*[sic] - against the *clear* teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and what you term as "life's work

???
Anybody

[Abdul]

May Allah save us all from saying anything bad about the great scholars of Islam, Ameen

[Strive4Allah]

Aaameen.
Ikhtilaaf 9difference of opinion is different and saying bad about the ulama is different..
Aaameen to your duas

[anfaas]

assalam`alaikum,

Two things :

Seems like apparently all the scholars of www.sunnipath.com are promoting *haraam*[sic] - against the *clear* teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and what you term as "life's work - of akaabir of Deoband", probably you should give a Fatwa against sunnipath or even against the Deobandi Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam now based on the views of the akaabir of Deoband.

1) I did not mean to disparage the `ulema of sunnipath.com, in fact I was trying to bring forth their opinion to make Sidi Muawiya understand that many ahlus-sunnah scholars do not agree with what he was trying to prove to be corerct (or the position of teh akabireen of Deoband). Even some of them being Deobandis.


2) Sister Stive4Allah - what I meant was - If it was the "life's work"( Sidi muawiya's words) of the ulema of deoband to stop tawassul - in the shape of istighatha - then what is the status of a Deobandi Mufti who does not agree with the Deobandi Opinion.

Plus what about the numerous top-notch scholars of the Middle East - who are not wahhabi/salafi and dont agree with the Deobandi position.

Wassalam

anfaas

[Mossy]

I hereby claim the 200th post in this thread. Probably approximately as productive as the rest of the discussion..

Adab al ikhtilaf fil Islam (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/TA_edi/Default.htm)?

[salman]

Qadhi ABU yUSUF?

Sallamu Alaikum

Qadhi Abu Yusuf, the student of Imam Abu hanifa, and one of the Mujtahid Imams of the Hanafi school.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

yes, he was an absoloute mujtahid (mujtahid mutlaq).

[muslim786]

Salam,

yes, he was an absoloute mujtahid (mujtahid mutlaq).

Brother Abu Usama I hope this thread has shown you why certian sunni muslims from a certain site do not like certain other the sunnis, as these sunnis appear to give out mix thoughts, I am not saying its right or wrong but I hope you understand what I mean.

[muslim786]

Also another reason for their dislike is most likely the fact that the certain disliked sunnis mosques appear to have been heavly influenced by the wahabi or Ikwani types (as you ureself have mentioned earlier) .

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

the site you refer to doesnt just dislike these other sunnis, but promotes nothing short of hatred towards them and other Muslims, and the worst thing is that they use slander against the ulema to achieve this aim. If it was just dislike for certain acts/beliefs, then i wouldnt have a problem with it. Anyway, I've been banned from the forum at that site for "promoting deobandi/wahhabi beliefs". :)

Even if one was to accept the argument that some mosques are wahhabi influenced (as it does appear in some cases) then even so, the approach should not be the way it is at the moment which is the deomonization of fellow sunni muslims. We should make excuses for each other, not look for each others faults.

Wasalam

[muslim786]

Salam,

the site you refer to doesnt just dislike these other sunnis, but promotes nothing short of hatred towards them and other Muslims, and the worst thing is that they use slander against the ulema to achieve this aim. If it was just dislike for certain acts/beliefs, then i wouldnt have a problem with it. Anyway, I've been banned from the forum at that site for "promoting deobandi/wahhabi beliefs". :)

Even if one was to accept the argument that some mosques are wahhabi influenced (as it does appear in some cases) then even so, the approach should not be the way it is at the moment which is the deomonization of fellow sunni muslims. We should make excuses for each other, not look for each others faults.

Wasalam

I agree with you wholeheartedly BUT like to add that the treatment been given in the other direction is worse in real life maybe not on forums but in person. And I wouldn't say they promote whole hearted hatred, also listen to speech by Syed Abdul Qadir on this which can be found on the forum, its in urdu. I myself have not listened to it as I don't know urdu but some brothers tell me its good, the talk I refer to is the one about who can be called a Kaffir.
Another thing in my experience almost MOST madarassas and tareqas (like my one) found in India lean more towards the so called barelvi's and like them, one has to ask the question why this is. Another example is the silsalah of Syedena Tahir Allauddin Al-Gillani, amongst many others.

PS Your asserstion that they use slander of the Ulema is a lie, it would appear that it is others that bring the ulemas names into it and I have seen the people there try to stop bringing the ulema into the mudslinging. But I do agree the forum may seem harsh at times but I still maintain that the actual site the front end is very good and has much to offer especially for those that speak urdu.

[Ajami]

Out of sheer curiosity, I was wondering how many "Deobandis" there were on this forum, and how many "Barelwis".

[seven]

i smell trouble

[muslim786]

This issue isn't a discrete science. Ok the dar al uloom at deoband maybe quite clearly definable. In my experience many people have labelled many as barelvi when their silsalah or imams have no formal links to the barelvi madarrassas, its just because their practices seem similar. So what do you mean by Barelvi brother? Do you mean people that accept and acknowledge the works of Imam Ahmed Raza Khan (Rahimutullahi), if so lots and lots of people including arabs would be defined as Barelvi.

In my opinion these names are a great cause of fitnah and separation. In my opinion there appears to be two types sunni muslim that follow madhabs:

1) The wahabi influenced
2) The true Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah.

The words Barelvi and Deobandi is irrelevant.

[Abu Usama]

PS Your asserstion that they use slander of the Ulema is a lie, it would appear that it is others that bring the ulemas names into it and I have seen the people there try to stop bringing the ulema into the mudslinging.

JazakAllah khayr for accusing me of lying.

Take a look at this (http://www.***********/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=1074&enterthread=y) thread then, and say that they don't slander the ulema. And then you may also notice that all the refutations of the slander upon the ulema have been deleted by the moderators! So yes, i assert again that they slander the ulema.

Also there's this (http://www.***********/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=1061&enterthread=y) and this (http://www.***********/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=768&enterthread=y) as a couple more of many examples.

Wasalam

[muslim786]

That was a member of the group not the site itself show me where in the front end they slander others. Note that I do acknowledge OTHERs including yourself have brought the ulema into disrepute but the site as whole appears not to.

And if you take a look at the site most threads with the slanders you have mentioned in them were not started by the slanders, but it would appear by you and brother Ibn Islam. Having said all that I will try and have a word with the admin on the forum there, I do agree that the way some things are discussed there seems unethical and very harsh.
They have told me that they are trying to stop discussing this issue, so hopefully in the future less hate will be shown. It is a shame that so much hate is around, and there are some on that forum that I really think give a bad example for so called barelvis, and at times seem to actually go away from what their scholars think(again this would appear not to be a discrete thing).

[Ajami]

i smell trouble
I would hope not.


This issue isn't a discrete science. Ok the dar al uloom at deoband maybe quite clearly definable. In my experience many people have labelled many as barelvi when their silsalah or imams have no formal links to the barelvi madarrassas, its just because their practices seem similar. So what do you mean by Barelvi brother?

In my opinion these names are a great cause of fitnah and separation. In my opinion there appears to be two types sunni muslim that follow madhabs:

1) The wahabi influenced
2) The true Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah.

The words Barelvi and Deobandi is irrelevant.
I was simply wondering how many people on here side more with the ulema of deoband and how many side more with the brelvi ulema; there obviously exists differences of opinion between the two. And since the poll is anonymous, I don't see how it would cause division. Once again, causing division wasn't my intent.

[Abu Usama]

Salam,

akhi, this stuff is official policy there and is at the fron end of the site. Eg, here (http://www.***********/activeweb.cfm?a_id=810) In this page for example, they attribute a blatant slander against Maulana Thanvi about what was written in Hifzul Imaan. I also recall that this same thing came up in the discussion, to which the reply of Shaykh Gibril Haddad was posted in which shaykh Gibril haddad says "this is a brazen manipulation of the original text", and then what do the moderators do? They accuse those who defend the ulema like Maulana thanvi of creating fitnah, promoting deobandi/wahhabi beliefs, and misusing the words of Sunni scholars like Gibril Haddad and then finally just delete any refutation there is of the slander against the likes of Maulana Thanvi. Oh and Shaykh Gibril Haddad quote is from this message (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=anti-deobandi+material&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8jp5pp%24rmf%241%40samba.rahul.net&rnum=1)


Note that I do acknowledge OTHERs including yourself have brought the ulema into disrepute but the site as whole appears not to.

There is not even a single message of mine where i have attacked any ulema at all, and if there is, then i ask you to provide your reference for this. For sure though, i have been accused of doing this.

[salman]

What nonsense are you two bickering about? Leave it. Muslim786 i only posted here cause you asked me to. Whatever misconceptions there were have been clarified. So why then are we still at each others throats?

Imam Ghazzali said:

--Do not dispute with anyone in any matter as far as possible. For in argumentation lies much harm and its evil is greater than its benefit

We must in all circumstances and times fear Allah, lest we face His wrath and end up in the Fire. Lastly a Hadith from the Prophet:

---Verily Allah's servant may utter a word without first bringing it to light [whether it is a good or a bad word], and because of it will stumble into the Fire a distance greater than what lies between East and West.

and

---Verily a man shall utter a word which he thinks of little consequence, and fall headlong for it into the Fire a distance of seventy years.

Wallahu A'lam

[muslim786]

Assalamulikum WR WB,

Brother Abu Usama I think its high time we should leave this topic. I agree that mistakes have been made on that site and I also think that you are far from innocent in this whole affair, as I am too, I have also been mistaken about things so lets leave it at that.
I think we should look to move forward and so if you know that discussing something with the people over there would annoy them why bring it up at all, just stick to the common grounds.
There are many things that I do not agree with from people of that site, but I usually keep silent about those issues, and another thing leave the sayings of the kids, which is what that site is mainly consisting of and listen to the talks by the imams themselves.
Once upon a time there was a very decent barelvi brother on there I think you may know whom I am referring to and he left because of some disagreements he had with the people there so please do not view the words of the forum people as gosple.
And I will further like to empahise that the reason for soo much apparent hatred that you may find there is mainly due to the fact of people experiences of so called deobandis. It is a mistake to judge a institution by those who say they follow that institution, and this would appear to be the mistakes of many on that site, I for one have been guilty of such a thing.
So in my view until more people like my dear brother Salman appear this hatred will continue I am afraid. These people wanna see action as well as words. And so far words is all they get.

Lets please leave this, brother Abu Usama I will contact you privately, there are some things I need to clarify with you that are best dealt with in private.

PS please fully read what I have said, you will see that I to am critical of the site. I also apologise for offending you, which it appears I have.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Is this really like an Indian community thing? Because the whole debate over this is meaningless and irrelevant to me as a Muslim. It just seems like it doesn't go anywhere and only further divides a fractured Ummah. JMO.

[Strive4Allah]

What nonsense are you two bickering about? Leave it. Muslim786 i only posted here cause you asked me to. Whatever misconceptions there were have been clarified. So why then are we still at each others throats?

Imam Ghazzali said:

--Do not dispute with anyone in any matter as far as possible. For in argumentation lies much harm and its evil is greater than its benefit

We must in all circumstances and times fear Allah, lest we face His wrath and end up in the Fire. Lastly a Hadith from the Prophet:

---Verily Allah's servant may utter a word without first bringing it to light [whether it is a good or a bad word], and because of it will stumble into the Fire a distance greater than what lies between East and West.

and

---Verily a man shall utter a word which he thinks of little consequence, and fall headlong for it into the Fire a distance of seventy years.

Wallahu A'lam

mashallah i needed this..ok so amnnot bangin about it just that i still dont understand which qadhi yusuf? is it imam abu yusuf rahimahullah...the oine who is normally mentioned with imam muhammed as sahibayn9the two freinds)? i dont know any other qadhi yusuf

[Strive4Allah]

I hereby claim the 200th post in this thread. Probably approximately as productive as the rest of the discussion..

Adab al ikhtilaf fil Islam (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/TA_edi/Default.htm)?
Yes i think I really need to get the book and read it..

[Strive4Allah]

Salam,

yes, he was an absoloute mujtahid (mujtahid mutlaq).
i know what mutlaq means but can u plz tel me the english word for it

[AbuZayd]

Neither, and this division is irrelevant to me.