Some serious question for ulama

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam 'alaikum

I have some questions that I need answered because Shaitan is playing with me.

1) I need to know in the opinion of the four mathaahib about the woman being consenting for marriage. Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway. Is this jaiz? Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?

2) Can little children be married (either to adults or to anyone else)? I'm taking like from age zero through to puberty. If a child is not baligh, can they give consent to the marriage or decline it?

3) If children under the age of puberty can be married, are their mates allowed to consumate the marriage with them? Would this be all right with someone who was under the age of puberty? Basically are there any conditions as to how old the wife/husband has to be before they have sex with their spouse?

I would very much like these questions to be answered by ulama, like Mawlana Nazim or Mawlana Hussain or any knowledgable brothers from any of the mathaahib. These things are bothering me as I thought that none of these things were allowed but now don't know and I want to know what is the correct stance I should hold.


TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

Jazakallah khair

[DefendingIslam]

TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

I do not remember myself making this thread, perhaps it is of another person, or of another topic?

[ataullah]

Salaam 'alaikum

I have some questions that I need answered because Shaitan is playing with me.

1) I need to know in the opinion of the four mathaahib about the woman being consenting for marriage. Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway. Is this jaiz? Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?

2) Can little children be married (either to adults or to anyone else)? I'm taking like from age zero through to puberty. If a child is not baligh, can they give consent to the marriage or decline it?

3) If children under the age of puberty can be married, are their mates allowed to consumate the marriage with them? Would this be all right with someone who was under the age of puberty? Basically are there any conditions as to how old the wife/husband has to be before they have sex with their spouse?

I would very much like these questions to be answered by ulama, like Mawlana Nazim or Mawlana Hussain or any knowledgable brothers from any of the mathaahib. These things are bothering me as I thought that none of these things were allowed but now don't know and I want to know what is the correct stance I should hold.


TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

Jazakallah khair

Dear Brother,
Salaam,

Your have asked if the "consent" of a lady is required for marriage or not, or her guardians/wali/parents decision will hold irrespective if lady is agreed or not. I think that our own made traditions/customs have taken over the Islamic teachings. Quran tells about two types of ladies, one is "mosaynaat" (indpendent, self-decision taker, etc) and other is "Malook" (who is financially or socially dependent upon others and cannot takes her own decision. Let me first talk about "malook". Quran says that marry such ladies "with the permission" of their "folk" (Ahalayhanaa). This is for that man who cannot afford to marry the free(indpendent) woman.

Even by going through this verse, it is amply clear that a lady who is financially, socially, well established one require her consent and "agreement" for marriage. The basic conditions are that" you like her" and "one has enough financial means" to support the marriage.

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05.html

Underage marriage is not permitted, it is when the pair is "Matured",(puberty age, Balagh).

I hope your questions have been answered with reference to Quran.

waslaam.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

So what about the malook who cant take her own decisions? Can she be married without her consent?

I would rather have a knowledgable person answer these questions ( no offence brother ataullah, but we are both ignorant).

[Intrepid]

Dear Brother,
Salaam,

Your have asked if the "consent" of a lady is required for marriage or not, or her guardians/wali/parents decision will hold irrespective if lady is agreed or not. I think that our own made traditions/customs have taken over the Islamic teachings. Quran tells about two types of ladies, one is "mosaynaat" (indpendent, self-decision taker, etc) and other is "Malook" (who is financially or socially dependent upon others and cannot takes her own decision. Let me first talk about "malook". Quran says that marry such ladies "with the permission" of their "folk" (Ahalayhanaa). This is for that man who cannot afford to marry the free(indpendent) woman.

Even by going through this verse, it is amply clear that a lady who is financially, socially, well established one require her consent and "agreement" for marriage. The basic conditions are that" you like her" and "one has enough financial means" to support the marriage.

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05.html

Underage marriage is not permitted, it is when the pair is "Matured",(puberty age, Balagh).

I hope your questions have been answered with reference to Quran.

waslaam.

The brothers above is mistaken. To rectify the brother above and any misunderstanding I reluctantly answer the question, but would have prefered a more knowledgeable brother answering it. According to my limited knowledge in accordance with Hanafi fiqh the consent of a female is necessary in a marriage contract. Niether does she need the consent of her parents to marry. Underage marriage is permissible however upon reaching puberty she is entitled to divorce.

Allah knows best

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

The brothers above is mistaken. To rectify the brother above and any misunderstanding I reluctantly answer the question, but would have prefered a more knowledgeable brother answering it. According to my limited knowledge in accordance with Hanafi fiqh the consent of a female is necessary in a marriage contract. Niether does she need the consent of her parents to marry. Underage marriage is permissible however upon reaching puberty she is entitled to divorce.

Allah knows bestThe marriage/nikah contract can be done by the wali for an underage girl, but she won't go live with or consummate the marriage with the man until developmental puberty is reached. At which point I believe she can also seek talaq or khula. It's more complicated than that, but that's the simplest version I've heard.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Jazakallah khair for the answers. So let me get this straight so I have a clear understanding:

1. According to the Hanafi mathaab, the wali of a child who is not yet baligh is allowed to commit the said child in a marriage contract, without the approval or consent of the non-baligh child.

2. The spouse of the non-baligh child is not permitted to have sexual intercourse with the non-baligh child nor consumate the marriage until the child becomes baligh. This would mean then (in my understanding), having reached the age of physical puberty is a requisite or condition (shart) for having sexual intercourse. (Is this correct, and if not, please someone clarify).

These are the two things I take away from the answers.

Now about the choice of the child upon reaching puberty of whether or not they accept the nikah or reject it. If they accept, they accept, without issue. But if they choose to reject they will need to have a divorce. For the male baligh, its not that big of a deal since he can just do talaaq (although I doubt very much that anyone would marry their son to an older woman). But if it is a female, she would have to do khula, and for this I understand she has to get a Qadhi involved, and she also needs a valid excuse or she is sinful. Would the fact that she just did not want to be married to said person (whether the spouse is the same age or older) be enough of an excuse for her to get a divorce? If that is not enough, would she have to be married to the person and consumate the marriage, etc, until a valid reason came up (like abuse)? Please can someone clarify that?

Also for my first question in the original post, I think I have our hanafi answer(atleast vaguely). What about the other mathaahib?

I'm asking these things with sincerity and not wanting to cause trouble or someting. I just want to understand because I was under the impression that no one could be married (baligh or not) without their consent and approval. But as I am learning, non-baligh children can in fact be married off without their approval and then after they become baligh the only way out for them is through talaaq or khula (khula being, in my understanding a very complicated issue with conditions for its validity). I would like the ulama to address these if possible, as I think a lot of people would like a detailed, scholarly explaination, as I am 100% certain that the majority of muslims living in the west are under the assumption that no such 'forced marriages' can take place, and that they are haram. Learning otherwise could be and is a shock to alot of people and shaitan and his followers can use this to cast doubt in our hearts. Its up to the ulama to clear these things and properly explain matters, otherwise we could be led astray.

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

You bring up in another thread the issue of using the term 'forced marriage', I believe the corresponding term in Western culture is 'betrothal'. If you look it up, it was a common practice in the West even until the dawn of the 20th century.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Yes you are right, accept the term can be used in two senses:
1. That two people are betrothed or rather promised to be married to one another (which is engagment today) with the consent and agreement of the couple.
2. That one or both are betrothed without their consent.

The key however is that this is a promise to be married, not actual marriage. Therefore to break a betrothal, one would not need a divorce. This is not the same as forced or compelled marriage, as it is marriage, and the only way that I understand that it is broken is via divorce(talaaq/khula).

But even if the Westerners do it, I don't really care, as it makes zero difference to me. They used to do a lot of things which they themselves have now rejected. So they are no proof of anything be right or wrong. But jazakallah khair for bringing my attention to that.

[HaajiMahjubi]

:)

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

Salaam,

Yes you are right, accept the term can be used in two senses:
1. That two people are betrothed or rather promised to be married to one another (which is engagment today) with the consent and agreement of the couple.
2. That one or both are betrothed without their consent.

The key however is that this is a promise to be married, not actual marriage. Therefore to break a betrothal, one would not need a divorce. This is not the same as forced or compelled marriage, as it is marriage, and the only way that I understand that it is broken is via divorce(talaaq/khula).

But even if the Westerners do it, I don't really care, as it makes zero difference to me. They used to do a lot of things which they themselves have now rejected. So they are no proof of anything be right or wrong. But jazakallah khair for bringing my attention to that.There was no concept of breaking a betrothal in most places. The man could forcibly consummate the betrothal into a marriage earlier than puberty in Christian and Jewish culture and they didn't frown upon it. It wasn't called rape or even 'forced'.

[ataullah]

Salaam,

So what about the malook who cant take her own decisions? Can she be married without her consent?

I would rather have a knowledgable person answer these questions ( no offence brother ataullah, but we are both ignorant).

Well Brother, you can speak of yourself. Let me remain what I am. (no offence). I have given you clear cut quranic verses, and your answer comes that" what about the malook who cant take her own decsions". I doubt if you really understand what you have yourself written.

waslaam.

[ataullah]

The brothers above is mistaken. To rectify the brother above and any misunderstanding I reluctantly answer the question, but would have prefered a more knowledgeable brother answering it. According to my limited knowledge in accordance with Hanafi fiqh the consent of a female is necessary in a marriage contract. Niether does she need the consent of her parents to marry. Underage marriage is permissible however upon reaching puberty she is entitled to divorce.

Allah knows best


Can you please show me a quranic verse, to support to your claim made in "bold" letters. Moreover it is not question of Hanfi, Maliki etc. etc. It is quranic command that you cannot force the ladies against their own will, not even the "captives".

Therefore question of marrying a women without her consent (which is by force) is a Crime in Quranic terms.

waslaam.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Brother Dhul Qarnain: You are probably right, its just that both my grandparents were betrothed and they have told me that in their day betrothal was normal and people could break it. They said that about their parents also. But probably the real kind of betrothol (what your talking about) was something that took place bit longer ago. I don't dispute with you as to what you said, all I know is there were in the past atleast two active concepts of being betrothed in the western world.

Brother ataullah: No offence taken, we are both ignorant, and there is no shame in admitting that. I understood what I wrote, atleast I thought I did. I thought I asked you "what about the woman who can't make her own descion." Maybe I did not understand your answer. And I would have to disagree with you: it is a hanafi thing, a maliki thing etc. The understanding of our legalities which are present in the Qur'an and hadith have been codified and interpreted through these four schools of thought, and it has been like that for centuries. This is what sunni Islam is, as I am sure you know. Sunni Muslims rely on the interpretations of the 'ulama ul-haqq for our understanding the sacred texts. It is bid'ah (if not haram) for ignorant people like you and me to pick up the Qur'an and hadith and start dealing out rulings and fatawa without having consulted qualified and certified scholars.

I wish that one of the scholars on this forum would atleast give me some clue as to what the answers to these questions are. Even brother Abu Hajira, khanbaba, I am all ears.

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum,

I think some of the issues were discussed before. For example, it was said in another thread concerning Shafii Fiqh of marriage:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18285


A virgin may be forced into marriage by her father (or grandfather), but there are conditions:

Conditions without which the marriage is not valid:
1- She must be a virgin
2- Her marriage must be to a peer (see posts above)
3- There cannot be any known enmity between her and her wali (known by neighbors for example)
4- There cannot be any enmity between her and the potential husband, whether it be known (by neighbors for example) or unknown (meaning that only those inside the family know about it)
5- The potential husband must be able to pay a mahr (dowry) equal to what other girls of her social standing receive

Additional conditions, without which the marriage is valid, but it is still Haram:
6- He must actually PAY her the mahr equal to what other girls of her social standing receive
7- The mahr must be paid in the currency of that town/area
8- The mahr must be paid immediately.

The above information is from the Hashiyah of Bajouri, a well known explanation of Matn Abi Shuja3.

[ataullah]

It is bid'ah (if not haram) for ignorant people like you and me to pick up the Qur'an and hadith and start dealing out rulings and fatawa without having consulted qualified and certified scholars.

Is there any source, specially from Quran, to support above?


A virgin may be forced into marriage by her father (or grandfather), but there are conditions:

Is there any source?. For me it is cruelty and is not supported in Quran.

waslaam

[DefendingIslam]

I do not know what your ideology is, but it can be said with certainity that not everyone is qualified to interpret Quranic injunctions and Prophetic Ahadith. We as laymen reserve the right to ask for explanations when we are confused about a matter, but rejecting the basis for explanations will lead only to perdition.

Some of the reasons given in that thread for the appropriateness of such a marriage were as follows:


And I can easily conceive of a situation where a father has arranged a marriage in the best interests of his daughter. His daughter, who is a virgin and has absolutely no experience with men, disagrees. But what is her disagreement based on? What does she know about men? How could she even know how to judge which man would be a better husband?

You have to admit that a man is a much better judge of a potential husband than a virgin girl... especially if that girl has avoided mixing with men her whole life.

The non-virgin, on the other hand, has personal experience upon which to draw when she decides whether or not she approves.



The Wali and the girl both have a right in the marriage. And when both of them agree on a particular match, the conditions of kafa'ah are dropped. When one of them wants to impose a marriage, kafa'ah comes into play.

And the above quote is certainly the case, since even in the Hanafi Madhab, if a woman marries someone who is beneath her in suitability, the guardian can annul the marriage. In the other Madhabs, the mirror situation holds true.

I do have my own questions about this matter, since there are many potential cases where there may be problems, and these will obviously ned some explanation by those who have knowledge.

Finally, the thread from which I got these rulings was derailed because of one Anthropology student trying to say that his field was more important in determining Islamic practice than our own Islamic sources. I hope this thread will not be hijacked in the same way by the postings of a Quran-only follower.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

This is the Book, whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn (godfearing). Surah Baqara

These are Verses of the Wise Book. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinûn (good-doers). Surah Luqman

Hadhrat Umar bin Khattaab (Radhiallahu anhu) reports that Nabi (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said that Allaah, the Lofty One, by means of this Kitaab, elevates many and lowers many. (Narrated by Muslim and Ibne Maja).

There is another hadith aswell that is in Muntakhab Ahadith in the section on 'ilm that says more or less that if a person gives his own opinion on something from the Qur'an, and he happens to be correct, even then he has erred (and in the commentary it says the reason is because he did not consult the knowledged people (ulama)). If someone has the Muntakhab, please quote it, I don't have it infront of me.

Anyway brother Ataaullah, you and I are not muttaqaan nor are we muhsinaan. We are not knowledgable scholars. We are not experts in aqidah, fiqh, nahw sarf, balagha, lughat, ahadith, sira, etc etc, to be able to just open up the Qur'an and say what we think about a verse or what we think it is cruel or not cruel. Some human beings feel it is cruel for women to have wear a hijab, some human beings think that you don't need to believe in Allah, some human beings are really really dumb. You and I are dumb people, uneducated, and therefore not fit to comment on the Qur'an. We probably don't know simple things even like i'raab, muthakkir/muanith, wahid, tathniya, jama'a, mutaharik, maftooh, madmoom, maksoor, majzoom, fa'ala, fa'alaa, fa'aloo, etc, etc. So we can't comment on these things with any ounce of authority.

Brother DefendingIslam: Jazakallah khair for the posts, very beneficial. I still would like very much the 'ulama here to just mention something on the questions. Insha'allah they will.

[umar_italy]

There is another hadith aswell that is in Muntakhab Ahadith in the section on 'ilm that says more or less that if a person gives his own opinion on something from the Qur'an, and he happens to be correct, even then he has erred (and in the commentary it says the reason is because he did not consult the knowledged people (ulama)). If someone has the Muntakhab, please quote it, I don't have it infront of me.


:salam:

I think these two ones also hits the point:

Ibn `Abbas quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to have said: “Whoever dares to interpret the Qur’an without having the scholastic qualifications to do so, let him expect his place in the Hell-Fire.” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)

Jundub ibn `Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) quotes the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: "Whoever interprets the Qur’an according to his own opinion will be always held as mistaken, even if his opinion proves to be right." (Reported by Abu Dawud)

Islam is based not only on the Qur'an, but rather on the Sunnah also, throught the understanding of the Salaf and the `Ulama', not of laymen people.

:ws:

[ataullah]

Salaam brothers,

I think the discussion is being side tracked on other things. I asked very simple question that if you have any quranic verse to prove your contention, the answer should have been yes or no. Instead you have started quoting irrelevant explanations: What I gain from your posts is:

a) Quran is personality(ies)-specific and cannot and should not be understood by (annas) ordinary people.

b) To understand quran a person must be masters in x,y,z, etc.

Moreover you are throwing more weight on personalities (ulemas) than on Quran itself. OK then show me in Quran any verse where it has been tied up with certain class of people without whose explanations one cannot or not supposed to understand Quran. No doubt that it was revealed on our Prophet(pbuh), but it was for all people. All generations to come. I am not rejecting all school of thought and at the same time not blindly accepting them either and specially your contention that "towards quran one has to go through them". Totally without any sense, this position is? I can show you from Quran that Allah has ordered the people to make tafakar (pondering) at its verses so that they may become or attain wisdom, mercy, guidance etc.

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps23/ch23y.html#29

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps23/ch23zk.html#27

You can yourself check these verses and ponder at your positions.

I am still awaiting if you can paste anything from Quran on your positions, or it is just conjecture which you follow only.


waslaam.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Brother Umaritaly, that second hadith from Abi Dawood is the one that is in Muntakhab ahadith, or atleat the matn is almost exactly the same. Jazakallah khair.

Ataullah: Muslims follow the the wahi of Allah as has been given to the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa salim. Two types of wahi: Wahi matloo (word for word, the Qur'an), and wahi ghair matloo (not word for word, the speech and practice of the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa salim). A muslim follows both of these things, and it is a must. We follow not just the written word of the Qur'an, but also the interpretations of the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa salim as shown by his sayings and practices. He is the manifestation of the Qur'an, and without consulting him, we will be misguided.

Very seldom things are "yes" or "no", black or white.

You said: a) Quran is personality(ies)-specific and cannot and should not be understood by (annas) ordinary people.

You are almost correct. The Qur'an will be a source of guidence (huda) for certain people. The verse says:

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them; And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

A person's understanding of the ayaat will depend upon the level of these various qualities a believer has. Who had these qualities the fullest? Nabi salallahu 'alaihi wa salim, so he understood the Qur'an the best, not you not me. Since he said:

“Whoever dares to interpret the Qur’an without having the scholastic qualifications to do so, let him expect his place in the Hell-Fire.”

"Whoever interprets the Qur’an according to his own opinion will be always held as mistaken, even if his opinion proves to be right."

One should stop at that and accept what he says is the haqq and have no devient opinion in this.

You are wrong in you saying that "the Qur'an should not be understood by the awwaam". That is silly, and you know it is silly. The awwam SHOULD understand the Qur'an, but it should not be their own opinion as to what the Qur'an means. People who are qualified should be the ones that the awwam go to to get their understanding from. Let me put it this way: if you wanted to understand the qur'an and you lived in the time of the Nabi salallahu alaihi wa salim, who would you go to for understanding? If you lived in the time of the sahabah, who would you go to? And now that we live in this time who would you go to? You (as any awwami muslim would) would go to the qualified 'ulama ul-haqq who the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa salim has said are his inheriters. You would not go to your own nafs or qalb. If you did, you would be acting in a very dangerous manner and are basically saying that your own uneducated opinion is equal to or elevated above that of the scholars, who have spent their lives learning how to understand the Qur'an. If you don't see a difference in that, and don't know....

You said: b) To understand quran a person must be masters in x,y,z, etc.

Not masters in xyz, masters in the islamic sciences. Brother, you and I don't even know alif ba ta, how could we think we can pick up an english or urdu mushaf (which is not even the Qur'an) and think that we are going to be able to take complicated masaail and rulings (as this thread is dealing with)? Not going to happen.

It is not "my contention" to go through the scholars for understanding, rather it is the only valid opinion. Not mine, but of all muslims.

You said: I am still awaiting if you can paste anything from Quran on your positions, or it is just conjecture which you follow only.

We gave you hadith, how is that conjecture? Make tawba, you are saying a very evil and stupid thing. You paste a passage or hadith that says that a person who has no knowledge can fully understand the qur'an.

Do you reject hadith?

[yousufs]

و مَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not know. (21:7, 16:43)

Allama Alusi (Tafsir-e-Ruhul-Ma'ani) writes under its tafseer:

واستدل بها أيضاً على وجوب المراجعة للعلماء فيما لا يعلم
"It is also been proved by this verse that one should discusse with Ulama when he does no know."

Quran is clear, undoubtful etc... definitely.. But we have to read the quran through our prophet's (sm) eyes/his sayings/hadiths. And we have to understand hadiths the way his companions understood. (Cuz definitely they understood better than us.) And to understand the way his companions understood, we have to go to our ulama. Because they studied them better than us, right?

Its like a medical book. I own it but don't have any education on it, nor am I any specialist on it. So now, the book is written in clear language definitely. But, if I try to prescribe any medicine just by reading it, without going to any specialist, will it be right? But just for this reason, can u say that the book was doubtful? no.. the book is clear, but it should be read through a specialist's eyes, it should be understood through a specialist's brain.

Poor engilsh.. sorry for that. Hope we understand. Ma'assalam.

[ataullah]

And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not know. (21:7, 16:43)

a) Who are the followers of the reminders:
b) what is the basic "theme" which your quoted verse is conveying.


Normally there is a prevailing tendency that when people are confronted with Quran and to an extent do not find any answer resort to certain arguments and tried to tie up Quran with other things.


waslaam

[abulayl]

Do you reject hadith?
he rejects prophet(sw) practise. he is *half-quran-only* dude

[ataullah]

he rejects prophet(sw) practise. he is *half-quran-only* dude

Thanks to Allah, at least I am according to you "Half-Quran-Only", what about those who are totally "Nil-Quran".

Please read the following again.

Normally there is a prevailing tendency that when people are confronted with Quran and to an extent do not find any answer resort to certain arguments and tried to tie up Quran with other things.

[TexasMuslims]

:salam:

I think these two ones also hits the point:

Ibn `Abbas quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to have said: “Whoever dares to interpret the Qur’an without having the scholastic qualifications to do so, let him expect his place in the Hell-Fire.” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)

Jundub ibn `Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) quotes the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: "Whoever interprets the Qur’an according to his own opinion will be always held as mistaken, even if his opinion proves to be right." (Reported by Abu Dawud)

Islam is based not only on the Qur'an, but rather on the Sunnah also, throught the understanding of the Salaf and the `Ulama', not of laymen people.

:ws:

Whats the difference betwen a scholar and a layman? is there a fine line?

[TexasMuslims]

Based on my knowledge, The three madhabs except the hanafis say a father can marry his daughter without her consent. It's ironic though how in India and Pakistan, this is not the case.

[ataullah]

Based on my knowledge, The three madhabs except the hanafis say a father can marry his daughter without her consent. It's ironic though how in India and Pakistan, this is not the case.

Why they cannot quote one verse from Quran which permits that Fathers, Guardian or Walis have the license to marry daughters without their consent. India and Pakistan has so many similarities in their way of living. And it is very much natural that when some family lives in a place, even in Europe or America, some effects will be on offsprings also (bad or good).

waslaam.

[DefendingIslam]

Why they cannot quote one verse from Quran which permits that Fathers, Guardian or Walis have the license to marry daughters without their consent.

We, the Ahl-us-Sunnah, are not Quran-only people.

About your statement, this right to marry of one's daughter without their consent is only for fathers and grandfathers. Other Walis are required to ask for their daughter's permission in the Madhabs which allow for this situation.

If I were following your reasoning, I could respond to you by saying that nowhere in the Quran does it say that a father or any guardian HAS TO ask permission from his daughter in order to marry, so then I could legislate that non-consentual marriages are allowed according to the Quran. You first provided a reference to Ayah 4:24 I believe, but this does not constitute irreversible proof for what you are trying to suggest.

[umar_italy]

Whats the difference betwen a scholar and a layman? is there a fine line?

:salam:

Well, I think there is a clear difference between a one-month-revert muslim, or a native muslim who never studied, and a Mufti mastering Arabic, knowing Qur'an by heart and having studied Fiqh, 'Aqidah, History and many other subjects under qualified `ulama'.

And having studied from a scholar with a continuous chain going back to RasuluLlah (SallaLlahu `alayhi wa Sallam) is the key, guarantee of correct understanding and Barakah, insha'Llah.

Obviously this doesn't mean that an `alim - only for the fact of being `alim - is a "better muslim" or has a "stronger Iman" than the former examples of revert or layman muslim, but it's rather a matter of qualification.

:ws:

[ataullah]

If I were following your reasoning, I could respond to you by saying that nowhere in the Quran does it say that a father or any guardian HAS TO ask permission from his daughter in order to marry, so then I could legislate that non-consentual marriages are allowed according to the Quran. You first provided a reference to Ayah 4:24 I believe, but this does not constitute irreversible proof for what you are trying to suggest.

Can you be little bit more clear what you wish to convey!!!!.

waslaam.

[DefendingIslam]

Quote:
If I were following your reasoning, I could respond to you by saying that nowhere in the Quran does it say that a father or any guardian HAS TO ask permission from his daughter in order to marry, so then I could legislate that non-consentual marriages are allowed according to the Quran. You first provided a reference to Ayah 4:24 I believe, but this does not constitute irreversible proof for what you are trying to suggest

.

Can you be little bit more clear what you wish to convey!!!!.

waslaam.

You contend that any ruling we make has to be found in the Qur'an. If I follow your reasoning, then I would say that the Qur'an does not say that a guardian HAS TO ask permission from his daughter in order to marry her off, thus the ruling is that non-consentual marriages are allowed.

I think I have been clear enough.

[yousufs]

عن المقدام بن معد يكرب الكندي أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قال: يوشك الرجل متكئا على أريكته يحدث بحديث من حديثي فيقول بيننا وبينكم كتاب الله عز و جل . فما وجدنا فيه من حلال استحللناه . وما وجدنا فيه من حرام استحرمناه . ألا وإن ما حرم رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم مثل ما حرم الله - رواه ابن ماجه و قال الاباني: صحيح

[ataullah]

You contend that any ruling we make has to be found in the Qur'an. If I follow your reasoning, then I would say that the Qur'an does not say that a guardian HAS TO ask permission from his daughter in order to marry her off, thus the ruling is that non-consentual marriages are allowed.

I think I have been clear enough.

Thanks. You will not find your contention in Quran, because Quran had laid down the criteria of marriage. An Adult lady(mosaaynaat) can marry on her own. Parents or Guardian cannot compel her not to marry or not to marry the choice of her own. Very simple it is. In my previous posts, I had mentioned two types of ladies mentioned. The important and conditional word is "Bilmaroof". After all, it is the lady who has to face the music of life, nor the guardian?????

waslaam.

[DefendingIslam]

Thanks. You will not find your contention in Quran, because Quran had laid down the criteria of marriage. An Adult lady(mosaaynaat) can marry on her own. Parents or Guardian cannot compel her not to marry or not to marry the choice of her own. Very simple it is. In my previous posts, I had mentioned two types of ladies mentioned. The important and conditional word is "Bilmaroof". After all, it is the lady who has to face the music of life, nor the guardian?????

waslaam.

The word "Bilma'roof" only occurs in Ayah 4:25 which is in reference to slave-girls, who in any case cannot and should not make their own decisions, since slaves are first under their masters.

Adult ladies can marry on their own and even compel their guardians to accept their choice, but this is only provided they have been previously married. If what you call "mosaaynaat" is Muhsanat, then this is what the Qur'an says, and no one from among the schools of thought is going against this.

[ataullah]

The word "Bilma'roof" only occurs in Ayah 4:25 which is in reference to slave-girls,

Brother please also check 2:232.

Although the subject is of divorce, but perhaps you will find the word "bilmaroof" related with "Nikah" and that also between "Ladies" and "Rajaal". This verse also in a way shows that Ladies subject to "Bilmaroof" are free to marry according to their own choice.

waslaam.

[IbnShafiq]

Thanks. You will not find your contention in Quran, because Quran had laid down the criteria of marriage. An Adult lady(mosaaynaat) can marry on her own. Parents or Guardian cannot compel her not to marry or not to marry the choice of her own. Very simple it is. In my previous posts, I had mentioned two types of ladies mentioned. The important and conditional word is "Bilmaroof". After all, it is the lady who has to face the music of life, nor the guardian?????

waslaam.

:salam:

What about this brother?:

Prophet :saw: said: "The marriage of any woman married without the permission of her guardian is false." He :saw: also said: “No marriage is to take place without the guardian.”

note. Hanafis, stay out of this :) i would like brother to answer it.

[DefendingIslam]

Brother please also check 2:232.

Although the subject is of divorce, but perhaps you will find the word "bilmaroof" related with "Nikah" and that also between "Ladies" and "Rajaal". This verse also in a way shows that Ladies subject to "Bilmaroof" are free to marry according to their own choice.

waslaam.

I do not see how Verse 2:232 can possibly have anything to do with a non-married virgin girl, since the Verse deals with reconciliation between a woman and the first husband when the second husband pronounces divorce to her.

So in this case, this lady has already been intimate with the first and second husband, so she has more right with respect to herself than her guardian has over her. Simply having the word "Bilmaroof" is no proof that any woman can do whatever she wants without any guardian in all circumstances.

So I still do not know of which Quranic Verse you are referring to. If there is some other Ayah please bring it up, and if not then admit this so that we may move on to the next step of the discussion.

[ataullah]

Brother,

Salaam,

I think we may start afresh because the topic was "forced marraige" (without the consent of lady.

waslaam.