How long is his beard?!

[karategirl]

:)

[Omar HH]

shia are our enemy, salafi's are our enemies,

I disagree. Salafis and Shias are Muslims. Shaykh Nuh Keller has a great audio about shi'a. They are Ahlul Bid'ah according to him, same with Salafis, according to him.

Ahlul Bidah and Ahlul Qibla are still Muslims.

[Mossy]

I disagree. Salafis and Shias are Muslims. Shaykh Nuh Keller has a great audio about shi'a. They are Ahlul Bid'ah according to him, same with Salafis, according to him.

Ahlul Bidah and Ahlul Qibla are still Muslims.

She disagrees too.. Read the sentences after ;)

Don't jump to conclusions people :D

[Omar_Farouk]

:jazak: 4 that sister may Allah reward u for ur efforts, very true what u hav sed as Jihad of the nafs is very important, lets try 2 sort our own lives out and worry about our aakhirat, and then worry about everything else.

[Saleel]

:salam:

:jazak: for your post, sister KG. I don't agree with large parts of it, but unfortunately I don't have the time or energy to explain, so khair. May Allah swt allow us to realise and correct our mistakes. Ameen.

:jazak:

:salam:

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum


the issue is that we hv reduced "religiousity" and "piety" into some physical manifestations of islam, that are only a small portion of one's worship of Allah and on then we base how "religious" they are.

Although i find it highly dislikeful when someone asks,"does he have a beard," we all still maintain that it is a Sunnah which is necessary. Piety is somewhat a physical manifestation, from the beard, to the clothes, to the way we act and so forth, even though one cannot guarantee (fully) if someone is pious by his physical appearance.


music.

None of the schools of though allow music. There have been scholars within schools that have allowed Music based on certain conditions, but this is a very small minority. One can only muster up a few names to support the view that music is halal.


Allah told us in the holy quran that the devil is our enemy and commanded us to take him as an enemy, and what do we do? we go around saying salafi's are our enemies, may Allah forgive us all. Our other enemy the prophet (pbuh) told us of is our own nafs, the controller of our desires. so plz conentrate ur "war" efforts on these two, for they are ur REAL enemies.

Our enemies are those who oppose Allah and his Messenger, and all of that is the work of the devil. As for the Salafiyyah, they are not our enemies, but our brothers who have rebelled and erred and have spread a plague of ignorance across the Ummah. May Allah guide us. Ahmadiyyah are non Muslims wothout a doubt, Goerge bush is a wretch and Shias are people of innovation, but i see what you are trying to say.

In the end, criticism by some people is not done for the sake of critcism, but for the sake of Deen. Haq should be spread, falsehood should be stopped.

-- Mujahadat al nafs bi al nafs afdal min mujahadat al ghayr bi al nafs.

Struggling against ones ego with ones ego is better than fighting against others with ones ego. (Sifat Al Safwa)

Jazakallah for the advice : )

[Omar HH]

The Beard in the Shafi`i School
Answered by Sidi Hamza Karamali & Sidi Mostafa Azzam

Could do you tell me the relied-upon position of the Shafi school regarding the beard?
1) Is it haram to shave the beard? Some people say that shaving the the beard is haram in all schools. I have heard it is only makruh, and this is the opinion of Imam Shafi and Imam Nawawi?. Is this the relied opinion? Which scholars have said what? What is the Maliki position?

2) Is it permissible to have a trimmed beard? What is the sunnah length?

3) What is the beard according to the Shafi school? I have heard if one grows some hairs on the chin (the 'Goatee'), this is a beard in the school as well. Does this follow the sunnah and is it permissible? I also have heard that number of Shafi scholars have goatee's and is a sound opinion as well, but this entails shaving the sides, which is haram I think?



In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

Is it haram to shave the beard?

Imam al-Shafi‘i is reported to have said that shaving the beard is forbidden (haram). This is not, however, the position taken by the Shafi‘i school.[1] The soundest position in the Shafi‘i school is that shaving the beard is disliked (makruh) and not forbidden (haram). This is the position of all the important figures in the late Shafi‘i school, such as Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Muhammad al-Ramli, al-Khatib al-Shirbini, and Shaykh al-Islam Zakariyya al-Ansari (Allah be pleased with all of them). (I‘anatu’l-Talibin, 2.341). Ibn Hajar has mentioned that this was the position of both Imam Nawawi and Imam Rafi‘i (Hashiyat Shirwani, 9.376). Imam Nawawi explicitly mentions that it is disliked to shave the beard in his commentary on Sahih Muslim and also in his Rawdat al-Talibin. Anyone familiar with the works of the school will realize that the agreement of all these scholars seals the case as far as the position of the school is concerned.

What is the ruling of trimming the beard?

To trim the beard is also disliked. It is not forbidden, as can be inferred a fortiori from the ruling regarding shaving the beard (if it is not forbidden to shave the beard, how can it be forbidden to trim it?). Ibn Hajar says in his Tuhfa:

“The outword purport (dhahir) of what our imams say is that it is unconditionally disliked to trim the beard.” (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.376)

What is the sunna length of the beard?

The optimal length of the beard is to leave it uncut and not touch it at all, as mentioned by Ibn Hajar above. Anything less than this optimal length is disliked. Ibn Hajar foresees the objection that this would result in making one’s appearance ugly by saying that this would only occur if one neglected caring for one’s beard by not washing or oiling it. (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.376).

What constitutes a minimum beard?

I have heard through Shaykh Amjad Rasheed of Amman (who studied in Hadramawt), that the Shafi‘is of Hadramawt say that someone who grows hair on his chin is legally considered to have kept a beard. As such, a goatee would minimally fulfill the sunna of keeping a beard, although it would obviously be superior to keep a fuller beard. The level of disliked-ness (karahah) in which one is engaged is commensurate with one’s distance from the optimal (uncut) beard.

The way of caution

Other schools of fiqh are not as lenient regarding the beard. The Hanafis and Hanbalis both hold, for example, that keeping a beard is obligatory (I don’t know the position of the Malikis; perhaps one of the Californians could get a referenced answer from Zaytuna regarding this).[2] Despite the fact that the official position of the Shafi‘i school is that shaving one’s beard is disliked, many prominent Shafi‘is (al-Halimi among the early Shafi‘is and al-Adhra‘i, Ibn al-Rif‘ah, Zayn al-Din al-Malibari, and Ibn Ziyad among the later ones) have taken the opinion that it is forbidden. As such, the way of caution in one’s religion would be to keep a full beard. Sidi Omar recently quoted Habib ‘Ali as saying that it does not befit a student of knowledge to shave his beard.

And Allah knows best.

Hamza Karamali and Mostafa Azzam.

_________________________

Notes

[1] Those unfamiliar with the concept of a “madhhab” are often under the impression that to follow the school of a particular Imam means to follow all his positions “no matter what”. This is not true. Each of the four schools of fiqh consisted of hundreds of top-notch scholars who were experts in a wide range of Islamic sciences. Over the generations, these scholars checked and refined the positions of the Imam of the school and the positions of the scholars who came before them. The late books of each school represent the collective effort of a whole school, and it is not uncommon to find that the position adopted by the school is contrary to the position of the particular Imam that the school is attributed to. Someone who really understands this will appreciate how absurd it is for someone to come along in the twenty - first century and claim that something recorded in the late books of a school has no proof behind it. To make such a claim is to accuse a millennium of Islamic genius of being sub-par (or even worse) “blind-followers who turn away from the Qur’an and Sunna”.

[2] Posts sent out on this list are meant primarily for followers of the Shafi‘i school. It is forbidden (haram) to constantly seek out dispensations, and so I omit mentioning positions of other schools when they are more lenient than the position of the Shafi‘is. When these positions are stricter than the position of the Shafi‘i school, however, it is good to mention them, since the way of taqwa entails being precautionary in one’s religion by avoiding what any of the four schools have ruled as being forbidden. In fulfilling the stricter position of another school, one, of course, also fulfills the more lenient position of the Shafi`I school.

“© Author, 2002-2004. Except for fair usage, no part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior permission of the Copyright owner. Fair usage is defined as sharing printed or electronic copy with others through email or keeping for own record. For information, contact info@sunnipath.com”

[mujahideenryder]

...sami yusuf...

madddd good

[Omar_Farouk]

Aameen :jazak: 4 the dua

[Omar HH]

Who did not have beards? The kafirun!
Who had clean shaven faces? The kafirun!
Who grew their moustaches? The kafirun!

Orthodox Jews grow their beards long, and they were around before Islam. Many bishops of Christian denominations grow the beard, which was around before Islam. Many Buddists (which was around before Islam) have long beards as well.
(By before Islam I mean before the final revelation of the Qur'an)

"In past generations, it was normal for men to grow full beards. Images from the past are filled with men who grew full beards. Military men, men of letters, activists, politicians, judges, farmers, professors, big men, small men, great men, heroes, famous and infamous men alike grew full beards. ... Ninety-nine Civil War Generals and Admirals wore beards, three went on to become President of the United States." (National Beard Registery)

So the kaffirun really do wear beards too.

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

But who didn't have beards?

[Omar HH]

Salaam 'Alaikum

But who didn't have beards?

The persians or something shaved the beard and grew the moustache.

I think thats what the hadith said.

Someone go look it up!

[salman]

The persians or something shaved the beard and grew the moustache.

I think thats what the hadith said.

Someone go look it up!

Sallam

Thats right

[Omar HH]

Do the Maliki scholars say you can shave the sides, and all you need is a goatee minimum right? Shaykh Hamza Yusuf only has a goatee.

Jazakallah wa Khayrun

[UmmZaid]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Sh. Hamza only has a goatee b/c that's all he can grow. Not all men are able to grow a beard. My friend tells me of a brother from China who could only get one or two hairs to grow near his chin, nothing else. But he kept those hairs and cared for them like a beard, as he loved the Sunnah so much.

[Mossy]

That and there is a Maliki position that that is all that is required to grow. I posted this a couple of days ago when someone was saying some not so nice stuff about Hamza Yusuf (is he a Shaykh or Imam technically?):


The arabic term for beard used in the pertinent hadith is lihya, which refers to the hair that on the two bones that hold the teeth. There are at least 19 other types of hair on the face (eg shaarib, anfaqah etc) as classified by the scholars, but the only hairs referenced for and commanded for growth are the lihya - ihfa al-lihya, let those hairs grow.

Growing these others was not commanded directly, therefore it cannot definitively be made fardh under certain juristic systems. Many ulema of the Arabian peninsula used to shave their sideburns and grow their goatees to indicate they understood the exact import of this hukm. Others grew it all as they considered this the wiser path and it was compulsory by association.

Please tell me where in the arabic it says to let any of the other hairs on the face grow. Jazakhs.

If you do not accept the viability of the Maliki madhab and scholarship, you will not accept the view that goatees are permitted. It's as simple as that. If so, good luck to you given that it is based on amal al medina.

If you are really concerned about the daleel for this view, pick up a book such as al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyah and a basic book of Maliki fiqh. If not, stop engaging in such non-constructive comments and try to do something to bring greater unity to your fellow muslims instead of constantly trying to drive them apart by your projection of self-righteousness.

However, I am not Maliki, nor educated Islamically. Please any areas I have made. Jazakhs.

In any case I would hesitate there are more important matters to concentrate on than the foibles of facial follicular growth - many amazing scholars over the years have had trim beards/goatees, across the madhabs.

See also: Trim beards and true love (http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000724.aspx)
and criticising major scholars for having trim beards (http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00000638.aspx)

[Omar HH]

Maliki Ruling from Guiding Helper:

> Where does the beard that is wajib to grow - start's and
> end's? I am so confused, i do not wish to shave any hair that is
> part of the chin. Please give me some illustration, picture or a
> simple and clear way to show me where the hairs start and end.
> (this is every important)

First of all, please note that this is our standard response to
this question:

Please refer to footnote #866 of the *Notes of Sources* for the
Main Text of the Guiding Helper.
The reference for these opinions are taken from the accepted
Maliki Book al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah [QF:V1:167:3-4].

We are narrating the opinion that it is permissible to remove
the cheek hair or shape the beard with a razor.

Another valid opinion in the Maliki School is that keeping
a beard is not wajib at all - but is a sunnah. Thus, you will see
that many contemporary and qualified (and pious) imams and
scholars in Morocco do not have a beard at all.

We summarize the opinions that we are narrating about the beard in the
*Notes of Sources* for the Main Text of the Guiding Helper, entry 1071.

References:
Footnote 2157 of the Explanatory Notes and associated entries in the Notes
of Sources.

As for where it starts and ends in the Maliki School, we do not feel
that giving limits to the nanometer is proper. Rather according to
the opinion we are narrating (which is based on the definition of the lihyah
in Arabic which is the hair on the two bones that hold the teeth
[Ref: al-Qamus al-Wajiz]):

a) It is permissible to shave the cheek hair (and neck hair) and unlawful
to shave the hair above and below the mouth
(one may trim this hair though -as we are narrating the opinion
that ihfa' al-lihyah (letting the beard grow) is only mandub
and this is in conformity with the popular opinion in the school
which labels all acts of fitrah as mandub and not wajib).

> I would be grateful if u could answer this also. many
> layman and some scholars of the hanafi school have said that
> shaving the beard is haram in the malaki school and growing
> the beard is fard, to a fistful.The 2 books from an indo/pak
> scholar and a salafi book mentin quotes from malaki scholars
> and books. Which i will produce below:

This scholar is probably just trying to back up his arguments
and claims. Many scholars state things like "this is agreed
upon by all four schools" as an instructive tool.

The real meaning of this is that "major scholars in all
four schools have stated this".

If you really want to know what is agreed upon by all
major scholars of our din you should refer to
Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdasi's book "Al-Mughni".

Anyone with deep knowledge of Jurisprudence knows that
differences of opinion exist within each school of knowledge.
And the way these differences are resolved is by coming up
with a "popular" and "trusted" opinion which is taught
to the masses and calling the other opinions
"minority" opinions which also have validity within the
school.

We would recommend books such as Bidayah al-Mujtahid
wa Niyahah al-Muqtasid (Averroes) and al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah
(Ibn Juzayy al-Kalbi) for people interested in learning how many
valid opinions issued by authentic scholars in our din can exist
for any one subject.

[As a side note, having popular views in a madh-hab along
with acceptable minority views ensures that the teachers of the school
will not become dogmatic or "sect-minded" [e.g., like some unqualified
people who label any one who does not hold their particular views to be
part of a misguided sect.]

[Strive4Allah]

Do the Maliki scholars say you can shave the sides, and all you need is a goatee minimum right? Shaykh Hamza Yusuf only has a goatee.

Jazakallah wa Khayrun
I think s hamza yusuf's beard is naturally like that wallahu aalam.and yeah some ppl jsut dont have a beard..

[love]

Dear sisters and brothers: Assalaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatahu.

I agree with everything said by Al Sayyeda K.G.

This is the worst problem facing the ummah today, that we have become hard-hearted and judgmental like the bani israeel and Allaah knows this time was prophesied by His rasool.

A beard is good but to measure a person's goodness by the length of his beard is foolishness in the extreme. A beard is physical, and there is indeed a link between physicality and spirituality, which is why our beautiful Islaam has given us many guidances on our physical comportment. But to over-emphasize physicality at the expense of spirituality is very very dangerous, nauzubillah.

Music is haraam, for what reason? If it excites the passions and encourages vice, then indeed it is haraam. But what is the harm in Beethoven? Even if it is a sin, then it is not of the same category as dishonesty and bribery and murder which prevail so gravely amongst the ummah today. If a man is arrogant and judges others as sinful, then is this not itself a greater sin? As 'Eesa (as) is reported to say in the bible, let him who is sinless cast the first stone!

The fact is that the Prophet (sa) spent long years in solitude praying to Allaah and also his sahaaba did the same, suffering the onslaught of the kaafiroon. Then for much time they were patient and endured all evils and never passed judgment or fought against the kaafiroon. They were never eager to judge others or fight others, and indeed they hated to fight others, so then Allaah had to reveal to them: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allaah knoweth, and ye know not.[I] [Al Qur'aan 2:216]. Then after this great suffering and patience, the Prophet (sa) and his sahaaba were deemed pure by Allaah, and then they were given dominion in Madeenat al Munawwara and later in whole of Arabia, and then they were permitted to judge others. But we are ourselves not even dust on the feet of the Prophet (sa), and we have not suffered or demonstrated our worthiness to judge others. Then how can we be so eager to judge others, when Allaah knows that the shaitaan is rife within ourselves!

Fee amanillaah!
Love

[Zahra]

Assalamu Alaikum

:confused: All the schools of thought in general state that music is haraam, so if we start to permit classical music, surely we are being weak and giving in to our nafs right?

I know one should not judge other muslim brothers and sisters but if one is in need of a guidance, isn't it our obligation to help and inform fellow muslims, obivously in an appropriate manner and not to be arrogant or patronsing as such.

All muslims should be united as an ummah, why all this aggro, hate and debate? :(

Walaikum Asalam

[Dawood82]

I disagree. Salafis and Shias are Muslims. Shaykh Nuh Keller has a great audio about shi'a. They are Ahlul Bid'ah according to him, same with Salafis, according to him.

Ahlul Bidah and Ahlul Qibla are still Muslims.

:salam:

Where did you find it?

[Omar HH]

:salam:

Where did you find it?

That was a really old audio that Sunniforum people spread.

[Dawood82]

Anyone still have it? Or any other good audio we can benefit from?

[slaveof Allaah]

Do the Maliki scholars say you can shave the sides, and all you need is a goatee minimum right? Shaykh Hamza Yusuf only has a goatee.

Jazakallah wa Khayrun

:salam:

i used to think the same think bout Shaykh Hamza's beard, that he shaves.

But when i saw him 2 years back, i was 2 1/2 feet away from him and he has little hairs on the side of his face, which obviously means the he can't grow any hair there.

He doesn't shave either, in fact no real Aalim that i know of shaves.

[Sad ibn Abu Waqqas]

Salaam 'Alaikum

Sh. Hamza only has a goatee b/c that's all he can grow. Not all men are able to grow a beard.

This is correct, and I know a brother who asked him about this directly.

Why do people find it difficult to grow a beard? Just think of the enormous gap between Sayyiduna Ibrahim, peace be upon him, who as an old man was willing to sacrifice his only son at Allah's command, and our people today, who get upset at the thought of keeping a full beard or covering their hair. It is amazing isn't it?

:ws:

[Nabil]

The pieces are starting to really fit together now. A few days ago we discovered that Shakh Yusuf Estus's website links are unpostable. This is by design of coarse. Right or wrong, Shakh Estus says that it is the Sunnah to have a beard. The owners of this site, whoever they may be are looking to squelch such teachings. It's not diffacult to figure these things out after you come hear a few times and watch what is going on.

Nabil...

[Nabil]

Im thinking that perhaps this site is run and sponsored on the down-low by an anti-Islamic organization of some sort possibly in cahoots with the ADL of one of the many tentacles of AIPAC hear in the States that they may sow fitna between Muslim Brothers and Sisters.

Nabil..

[UaHuSsain]

I think that was a totally unneccessary comment bro..........

[AbdulQahhar]

This is correct, and I know a brother who asked him about this directly.

Why do people find it difficult to grow a beard? Just think of the enormous gap between Sayyiduna Ibrahim, peace be upon him, who as an old man was willing to sacrifice his only son at Allah's command, and our people today, who get upset at the thought of keeping a full beard or covering their hair. It is amazing isn't it?

:ws:

Excellent point bro. It only shows how much we really love Allah :taala: and how much of fear we have for Him :taala: :cry:

[abdallah87]

well even i have seen my local imam..he cant grow his beard much...

btw aqi dawood how u managed to bump up this thread?;) i was just seeign the dates and was confused...lol..

also in the first post theres nothing rite? whats the topic abt btw? ;)

:ws:

[mishor]

Anyone still have it? Or any other good audio we can benefit from?
I might have it. I'll try and find it and upload it later Insha-Allah. :D

[Talhah]

I disagree. Salafis and Shias are Muslims. Shaykh Nuh Keller has a great audio about shi'a. They are Ahlul Bid'ah according to him, same with Salafis, according to him.

Ahlul Bidah and Ahlul Qibla are still Muslims.

Shias are KAAFIRS without any doubt!!

[slave of allah]

shias are KAAAFIRS. have you not seen the videos i have posted of these shayateen. also who the hell is shaykh keller to say shias are muslims. it has been da ijmaa of the ahle sunnah wal jamaat from day 1 that shia rawaafidh are kaafirs. if nuh keller is ok with shias tell him why dont he go with them to the shrine of abu lulu and sing along with them on the anniversary of the death of umar (ra).

[muslim786]

:salam:

Why have your brothers resurected this thread, the last before the last two posts was posted almost a year ago.

:ws:

[fahid]

Shias are KAAFIRS without any doubt!!

I still believe that we have to watch how we point the Fingers as it can be VERY dangerous. There are different types of Shia, one type fall into Kufr, the other type fall into Innovation but are not Kafirs.

Allah knows best.

[yousaf khan]

i am not ulma or have more knowledge in this regard but i just dare to say that ....there is beard in islam but islam is not in beard. may Allah helps us.

[fahid]

i am not ulma or have more knowledge in this regard but i just dare to say that ....there is beard in islam but islam is not in beard. may Allah helps us.

Well it is part of our Identity/Label, Islamically speaking.

[Sadia90]

Well it is part of our Identity/Label, Islamically speaking.

:D