How many times do we get taxed on the same pound/dollar?

[xs11ax]

When a person works and earns an income he is taxed on his earnings.

As soon as he starts spending his earnings he is again taxed by paying VAT or extra charges on the goods which are put in place to cover the sellers tax.

The money which has now been transfered to the other person is again taxed as income and again taxed when it is spent.

The cycle goes on. Tax after tax after tax. It seems as though we are slaves; drones, just feeding and feeding and feeding the system.

[vagabond]

When a person works and earns an income he is taxed on his earnings.

As soon as he starts spending his earnings he is again taxed by paying VAT or extra charges on the goods which are put in place to cover the sellers tax.

The money which has now been transfered to the other person is again taxed as income and again taxed when it is spent.

The cycle goes on. Tax after tax after tax. It seems as though we are slaves; drones, just feeding and feeding and feeding the system.

Would you suggest an alternative taxation scheme? Something that would generate enough money for the government to pay to build roads, schools, hospitals, police and fire stations, a military, social welfare programs, financial regulation, etc ... for you? If you can do without all of the above, no need for taxes!

[marco100]

Would you suggest an alternative taxation scheme? Something that would generate enough money for the government to pay to build roads, schools, hospitals, police and fire stations, a military, social welfare programs, financial regulation, etc ... for you? If you can do without all of the above, no need for taxes!

This was possible before. There is no such thing as tax law in America put it this way. Shock horror! ;)

So what is tax? Well let's give an analogy; you own a shop and a gangster comes in and says, "Right pal, from now on, every month, you pay us £2,000. If you don't, well, we'll ruin you". You ask, huh? why do I have to pay this gangster when I don't owe him anything?

Exactly. Now you get an idea of taxation.

[vagabond]

This was possible before. There is no such thing as tax law in America put it this way. Shock horror! ;)

So what is tax? Well let's give an analogy; you own a shop and a gangster comes in and says, "Right pal, from now on, every month, you pay us £2,000. If you don't, well, we'll ruin you". You ask, huh? why do I have to pay this gangster when I don't owe him anything?

Exactly. Now you get an idea of taxation.

It's more like, every month pay us 2,000 - or else don't walk on the roads, never go to a public hospital for medical attention, do not use water/power/sewerage infrastructure for yourself nor conduct business with or go a place which uses such infrastructure, in the event of hostile forces invading the country you're on your own, the police will not repond to your calls, if your home is on fire make sure you have enough water to put it out (can't use the city's water supply, sorry), etc... etc.. etc...

Taxes are necessary. It's moronic to discuss whether or not taxes should exist. Wanna complain, complain about the taxation system, and how it is implemented .. suggest an alternate scheme, support politicians who have better ideas for taxation, etc ..

having a bad day today. *roar*

[marco100]

It's more like, every month pay us 2,000 - or else don't walk on the roads, never go to a public hospital for medical attention, do not use water/power/sewerage infrastructure for yourself nor conduct business with or go a place which uses such infrastructure, in the event of hostile forces invading the country you're on your own, the police will not repond to your calls, if your home is on fire make sure you have enough water to put it out (can't use the city's water supply, sorry), etc... etc.. etc...

Taxes are necessary. It's moronic to discuss whether or not taxes should exist. Wanna complain, complain about the taxation system, and how it is implemented .. suggest an alternate scheme, support politicians who have better ideas for taxation, etc ..

having a bad day today. *roar*

Brother, why are you saying it's moronic what I say? I'm not moaning, I'm telling you that there is no such thing as a tax law in America. Now, if you wish to ignore something that is fact, then that's fine. This is in the American Statute. People have gone to court fighting for this right not to pay taxes and have won. It's all documented.

Regards whether a country can run without taxes? It's possible yes and has been possible in the past.

We can make this a history lesson if you want. ;)

Taxation in a nutshell is a "guarantor" by the government agreed on your behalf ( without asking you by the way) that they will pay the federal reserve and bank of england the money they borrow from them. Shock horror, the fed isn't a government owned institution?? ;)

[vagabond]

Brother, why are you saying it's moronic what I say? I'm not moaning, I'm telling you that there is no such thing as a tax law in America. Now, if you wish to ignore something that is fact, then that's fine. This is in the American Statute. People have gone to court fighting for this right not to pay taxes and have won. It's all documented.

Regards whether a country can run without taxes? It's possible yes and has been possible in the past.

We can make this a history lesson if you want. ;)

Taxation in a nutshell is a "guarantor" by the government agreed on your behalf ( without asking you by the way) that they will pay the federal reserve and bank of england the money they borrow from them. Shock horror, the fed isn't a government owned institution?? ;)

Yeah, and the jews messed up my peanut butter and jelly sandwich while I was looking the other way.

On a more serious note, .... really? Cool.

[marco100]

Yeah, and the jews messed up my peanut butter and jelly sandwich while I was looking the other way.

On a more serious note, .... really? Cool.

No not "cool" ;)

[xs11ax]

@marco... i have heard about this tax not being legal in the USA.

btw im just throwing around thoughts which have cropped up in my head, i am not trying to imply i am right about what i am saying, but just provoking discussion to learn more.

when vagabond says taxation is needed to run the infrastructure of a country, how would that work when money has no real value? the only real value i can think of in this context is human effort and that money is just a token of the human effort. if money is recycled in a system and money represents human effort then it is human effort which is being recycled in the system.

[vagabond]

No not "cool" ;)

I was referring to what you said about cases in which people won the right not to pay taxes. Thought that was cool.

Your smileys are making my head hurt.

[marco100]

@marco... i have heard about this tax not being legal in the USA.

btw im just throwing around thoughts which have cropped up in my head, i am not trying to imply i am right about what i am saying, but just provoking discussion to learn more.

when vagabond says taxation is needed to run the infrastructure of a country, how would that work when money has no real value? the only real value i can think of in this context is human effort and that money is just a token of the human effort. if money is recycled in a system and money represents human effort then it is human effort which is being recycled in the system.

Well the country first of all has natural resources it can sell to other countries and organisations and use that money to finance the infrastructure. That is one way in which it can achieve those goals. There's a whole load of history on this. America before taxation and the federal reserve came into effect, financed it's infrastructure pretty well.

Lets take the UK for example. Rough guess, 20m people paying taxes. On average say £4,000 a year per person in taxes. That's around £80bn a year the government takes from us to finance the infrastructure. Is the cost of building new roads, education, NHS equal to or more than £80bn a year?

Something is amiss in all of this.

[xs11ax]

Well the country first of all has natural resources it can sell to other countries and organisations and use that money to finance the infrastructure. That is one way in which it can achieve those goals.

but what has that to do with tax?

[marco100]

but what has that to do with tax?

Well the brother vagabond said tax is necessary for the infrastructure of the country when history has shown this not to be the case. It canbe run without taxation. So then this is the question; why do we pay tax???

[xs11ax]

Well the brother vagabond said tax is necessary for the infrastructure of the country when history has shown this not to be the case. It canbe run without taxation. So then this is the question; why do we pay tax???

good question why do we pay tax??

and as a side note, if the infrastructure of a country is supported by the export of its natural resources then why is it that the majority of the third world nations are very rich in natural resources yet remain poor?

[marco100]

good question why do we pay tax??

and as a side note, if the infrastructure of a country is supported by the export of its natural resources then why is it that the majority of the third world nations are very rich in natural resources yet remain poor?

Good point. Combination of things; corruption, no technology to bring forth those natural resources. Look at the history of saudi Arabia. When they first discovered oil, they had the oil, but the technology wasn't there to bring it out. Enter America who said they'd provide the technology in return for cheap oil, and also that Saudis had to pay off the US's debts! Laughable yes, but that's why the arabs are a laughing stock. They're paying through the nose on everything. They're paying the US national debt for goodness sakes!

Anyway, the governments of third world countries are not that stupid like the arabs to literally hand over their natural resources to countries like the states. That's what's happening in Venezuela. Their refusal to play ball with US has resulted in their president being demonised by the US media.

You have to read up on the history of FIAT currency, paper currency etc to understand just why the tax system exists brother.

[umar_italy]

and as a side note, if the infrastructure of a country is supported by the export of its natural resources then why is it that the majority of the third world nations are very rich in natural resources yet remain poor?

Unfair trade?

Exploitment by corporations and western imperialism?

[Ali al-Hanafi]

Well the country first of all has natural resources it can sell to other countries and organisations and use that money to finance the infrastructure. That is one way in which it can achieve those goals. .

:salam:

This is if a country's export industry is nationalised but in the U.K. this is not the case. The government does however tax this too.


Unfair trade?

Exploitment by corporations and western imperialism?

And corrupted third world governments.

[marco100]

:salam:

This is if a country's export industry is nationalised but in the U.K. this is not the case. The government does however tax this too.

Oh yes I agree brother. I'm talking in terms of a simplistic sense without any kind of privatisation. Without this, a country can finance it's infrastructure through it's resources. History shows this.

Taxation is another ball game altogether.

[umar_italy]

And corrupted third world governments.

Corrupted puppet neo-colonial third world governments, indeed. ;-)

[hope1]

Assalamu aliakum,

I gave this issue a lot of thought in our Economics classes. In my opinion the government should become like a multi-conglomerate corporation which will use its revenues to finance the public infrastructure instead of taxing the people. For example it will raise financing through a stock market system from the people (this is like taxing but now the people are owners of a revenue generating organization and entitled to dividends and profits). Moreover the government owns the land and the natural resources which they can sell for very high prices. They give rights to corporations to exploit these resources at very low tax rates and low royalty fees. If the government itself were mining these resources they would be as rich as these multi billion dollar companies.