I'd like to learn a few things about Hadith-al-Qudsi

[monotheist]

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.

Although I am someone who has just recently decided to accept only the best hadith (The Quran), I would like to find out more about Hadith-al-Qudsi.

Is this accepted/utilised by all Sunni's?

Peace.
Monotheist.

[monotheist]

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam

The reason I asked was not to question your views, but becuase a famous sunni scholar Ahmad Deedat (to my current awareness, may God guide me to the truth) is known to have made comments about it in his publications, whilst making reference to the following verses;

68:35 Should We treat the ones who surrendered the same as those who are criminals?
68:36 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
68:37 Or do you have another book which you study?
68:38 In it, you can find what you wish?

That is why I wished to ask whether all sunni's accept Hadith-al-Quddsi. I would be grateful if someone could answer this for me, or tell me of a web resource from which i could access this, I need all the information I can get. Thanks in advance.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam
Monotheist.

[Omar HH]

Everyone who is a member of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'ah accepts all authenticated hadith reports from our Prophet :saw: including hadith qudsi.

It is obligatory for a Sunni to believe the Prophet :saw: actually said a rigorously well authenticated hadith.

[monotheist]

Not praying for your enemies is jealousy. - Imam Nawawi.

Make du'a for me.

:) Seems more like common sense than jealousy, but, fair enough,...

[monotheist]

What is the sunni understanding of...

68:37 Or do you have another book which you study?

I'd like to know what the sunni understanding of this verse is - for me it gives an indication that hadith-al-qudusi may not be acceptable, becuase it claims to be God's conversations with the prophet (pbuh) - please correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace to all brothers and sisters in Islam.
Monotheist.

[talib al-habib]

salams Monotheist

The 'hadith' of Rasulullah (s) are essentially reports that come through chains of varying numbers and strength through which one apprehends the Sunna (life pattern) of the Holy Prophet (s). The Sunna of the Holy Prophet (s) is the exposition of the Holy Quran - that is, the explanation of its meaning and how its principles should be practically applied in one's life. For example, Allah tells us in the Quran to 'establish prayer and charity' and to 'bow and prostrate', but does not actually explain how to do so in terms of methodology. It is forthis that we turn to the Sunna of the Holy Prophet (S), who is not merely the messenger sent to deliver a message but the primary and foremost interlocutor and expositor of that message. He does not only deliver God's word, but rather gives us a 23 (or 63) year tutorial in how exactly to apply it to one's life. This is one of the great wisdoms in Allah's sending of an actual messenger, rather than simply sending down a book into our living rooms.

Be very careful of how you interpret the words of the Quran - especially considring that you are doing it in a foreign language. Remember that the Quran - the 'best hadith' that you speak of - also says, 'whatever the Prophet gives you, accept it, and whatever he forbids you from, reject it.'

Shaykh Ahmad Deedat, may Allah be compasisonate towards him, is a great caller-to-Islam, and a charismatic man, but he is NOT a 'great Sunni scholar.' Shaykh Ahmad has NO formal training in the Islamic sciences at all, and most definitely not in traditional manners. He does not even have a good working knowledge of Arabic (I know, because I know him). This is absolutely not to disparage him, as he himself will be the first to admit this. It is merely the truth. Unlike certain other Da`is who might be mentioned, he very consciously restricts himself to dealing with the issue in which his expertise lies - inter-religious dialogue - and has never (to my knowledge) gone into matters of fiqh, aqida and so forth. Shaykh Ahmad believes fully in following the Sunna as explained by the hadith of Rasulullah (S), and is (was) a practising Sunni. Make dua for him, as he is currently quadreplegic and communicates only via a computer.

Dear brother, the hadith of the Holy Prophet (s) are absolutely essential in understanding and practising Islam - without them we would be utterly lost in a sea of confusion. Allah says about Rasulullah (S) that, 'we conferred a great favour on the believers when we raised a messenger from amongst themselves who:

1. Rehearsed to them the signs of Allah (taught them about divine unity)
2. and purified them (by his blessed presence and the light of his guidance)
3. and taught them the book (the Quran)
4. And the wisdom (the way to practise its teachings - ie: the sunna).

Note that he TAUGHT us the Quran. One does not teach by dictation, one teaches by ensuring that the pupils absorb the message, explaining around the lesson in ways that will facilitate understanding, and practical demonstration. Similarly, he taught WISDOM as well - that is, the correct time, place, and manner in which to apply that which was contained in the Quran. For example, Allah says, 'fear Allah as He should be feared.' So, how exactly should Allah be feared? Like one fears a tyrant? Like one fears a storm? Like one fears the dark? Or like one fears causing grief or disappointment to someone one loves? The answer to this question and everything else mentioned in this paragraph is found in the hadith of the Holy Prophet (s).

I have not mentioned any actual hadith in this post, because it seems that you are unsure about whether they are valid or not (if I have misunderstood your views then forgive me). I have only mentioned one or two verses of the Quran that point to the importance of hadith.

It appears to me that - respectfully - you should be less concerned with the distinction between hadith qudsi and the Quran than you should about the crucial and essential nature of the hadith themselves.

For more info on hadith, try www.sunnah.org ¬ topics ¬ Quran and hadith and look for 'the probativeness of Sunna,' which explains in detail their position in Islamic thought, practice and law.

May Allah guide you,me and all of us to the truth
was salam, talib

PS: not praying for your enemies is jealousy because it indicates a lack of contentment with the will of Allah on your part and a desire that Allah should not favour those you dislike over yourself. This is selfishness and jealousy, and thus unbefitting of one who believes in the Will and Wisdom of Allah.

[Muawiyah]

Ahmed Deedat is no sunni, his organizations affliate in Karachi is a group of Hadith Deniers.

[monotheist]

Thank you very much for your help brothers; it is much appreciated.

I am however a bit confused about Ahmed Deedat.


Shaykh Ahmad believes fully in following the Sunna as explained by the hadith of Rasulullah (S), and is (was) a practising Sunni. Make dua for him, as he is currently quadreplegic and communicates only via a computer.

May the God give him happiness in this world and the here after. Is he a Sunni, or is he not a Sunni? His publications seem to show that he is a Sunni.


May Allah guide you,me and all of us to the truth

Insha-allah.

I have become confused over Ahmad Deedat now…


Ahmed Deedat is no sunni, his organizations affliate in Karachi is a group of Hadith Deniers.

So is he a Sunni? is he alive? What is this organisation of his in Karachi? (Pakistan?) – I thought he was/is an Arab. I’m confused. Are we talking about different people with the same name?

Salaams.

[Muawiyah]

If bro Talib knows him personally that's another matter, what I gathered from some of his writings was that he is one of the "no sunni no shia" types, his affiliated organization in Karachi is "International Islamic Propagation Center" a group of Zanadiqah who deny Hadeeth, headed by one Muhammad Shaikh.

[monotheist]

I read a few articles of his about muhammad (PBUH) being the one prophesised in the bible, and in that he quoted hadiths etc. So Idon't understand whats going on here. Are we all talking about the same Ahmad Deedat who got the King Faisal award?

[Abu Suliman]

Ahmed Deedat is no sunni, his organizations affliate in Karachi is a group of Hadith Deniers.
brother from what i know he has nothing to do with this organization they are headed by someone else.the only reason you probaly think he is head because they promote hes lectures.if iam wrong please someone clarify it to me jazakalla.

[monotheist]

So is he a sunni? Does he accept hadith? Is he alive even?! If people who reject hadith promote his lectures, then how come he supports hadiths in his books.

[Abu Suliman]

So is he a sunni? Does he accept hadith? Is he alive even?! If people who reject hadith promote his lectures, then how come he supports hadiths in his books.
brother we should believe he is a sunni unless we find clear evidence that he is not, we should have good opinion of him and pray for him

[talib al-habib]

salams

just to clarify from my limited perspective. Though I know Ahmad Deedat, I probably (paradoxically) haven't heard/read as many of his lectures or books as others here.

1. Shaykh Ahmed is a sunni south african of Indian descent.

2. He is both highly intelligent and poorly-educated (he was shut out from learning, as were many of the older 'black' south africans in the apartheid years. He has no formal Islamic qualifications or asanid.

3. Much of his knowledge and research is self-taught, and his methodology is very similar to that of Christian missionaries (which is why he is so effective and why they detest him so much).

4. He has, to my knowledge, absolutely refrained from (1) inter-islamic polemics, (2) passing comment on the details of fiqh, aqida and other such matters. He is, actually, probably closer to the 'Barelwis' than any other group. He used to attend Maulid, for example. However, he never wore this on his sleeve and used to mix with all groups.

5. His over-riding concern is da`wa to non-muslims. He has affiliated himself with anyone who could help him in his cause, whether Saudi, sunni or whatever. He has also been extremely successful, alhamdulillah.

To summarize: Shaykh Ahmad Deedat is not a scholar and wisely stays away from their fields of expertise. He is sunni and not a hadith-rejector. He is, in sum and total, a Da`i - and has made a far greater difference than any of us. May Allah reward him and cover his flaws.

was salam

[monotheist]

Thank you brother Talib. Now I understand.

[alibaba]

to abu suliman who stated
"brother we should believe he is a sunni unless we find clear evidence that he is not, we should have good opinion of him and pray for him"

wat makes u think being a sunni is such a good thing??

it is ur opinion that it is.

[Mossy]

That's all it needs to be - his opinion.

He's made a concious decision that the best way to be a muslim is follow the sunnah and the sunni interpretation and hence this delineates his interpretation of right and wrong.

Plus that of the vast majority of members of this forum :)

[Abu Yaseen]

Assalaamu'alaikum

I cam across this once on www.htspub.com about Ahmed Deedat:-

5. It is the longstanding belief of the Ahmadiyyah that Christ was crucified on the cross, that he fainted and was taken down (As a warning, it should be known that this is the belief of the famous polemist Ahmad Deedat), then escaped to Saringar in India and was laid to rest there.

(http://212.67.202.62/%7Esecurity/htspub/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=2)

Is this true?

wassalam

[Adam]

With respect. The only thing standing between Sunniforum and the seemingly inevitable evolutionary course of all Muslim forae - i.e. descending to bitter doctrinal, sectarian or ideological disputation and the fiqh of trimming the eyebrows - is the presence of a few lights of the humble and knowledgable people of taste.

Go ask the people of South Africa about Shaykh Deedat who is a simple and humble caller to Islam. Though he has had contact with anyone from Rashad Khalifa to Imam Khomeini he is neither a Submitter nor a Shia. Both Deobandis and Barelwis (as if they constituted the entire Ummah...) revere him in South Africa - because he displays Adab and Akhlaq. Something we might want to brush up on before we go issuing verdicts as to other peoples "Sunnism"...

Salaamu Alaykum

[Mossy]

Agreed, we should never go by hearsay and carry tales - ifk?

Back to the original topic peeps. Help monotheist out in his queries.

[Usman]

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Noble brethren, as a few other brothers have already stated, that Ahmed Deedat is just a caller to Islam, I agree with that. His works on the refutation of christianity and biblical errors, are exceptional work of the 20th century.

However, that's all he was. He spent so much time refuting Christianity through Qur'anic verses, that apparently he never knew what the in-depth beleifs of a Sunni Muslim should be. Still, for he declares himself as a Sunni, we accept it.
As far as ahmed deedat's books on Crucifiction/Crucifixion and other are concerned, there is a common mistake most juhala(as opposed to ulama)[common people/non-scholars] make, you cannot hold mere books to be someone's beleif, until or unless he explicitly declares them his beleif.

The books written by Ahmed Deedat are mostly for Munazra(Debate) purposes, they do not necessarily represent his own beleifs.

Keeping the above points in mind, and the way of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, to be highly careful whilst sidelining someone with a particular deviant sect, Ahmed Deedat is Alhamdulillah a sunni.

and Allah Knows best.

PS: His Institution is IPCI, and the deniar of Hadeeth's institution is IIPC(kept the name to fool the common masses). IPCI has no relation with IIPC in Karachi.

[Usman]

coming back to the point of brother monotheist,

Noble brother,
Before you go about following "Ahsanul Hadees" , the Qur'an only, we would like to know what leads you to deny the ahadeeth? the very same Qur'an also says regarding Rasoolullah(Alaihi Salaatu wasSalaam), that "He does not say from his desires, but only what we reveal upon him", therefore, following this "Ahsanul Hadeeth" we follow the Ahadeeth as a source of guidance for ourselves.

You asked what is the position of the Sunnis regarding a person who follows the Ahsanul Hadeeth; if , by saying that, you wanted to know what the Sunnis regard the deniar of Hadeeth, then it is unanimous that he/she is outside the fold of Islam. This is due to the fact that the "Zarooriyaat-Deen" [ Requirements of Religion ] include the Ahadeeth as Hujjah, from which several beleifs of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are derived, hence, one who does not beleive in the foundation, denies the existence of the building.

It would be better if you rather ask us the Authority of Sunnah in Islam.

and Allah Knows best,
wasSalaam,
Usman

[Muawiyah]

This IIPC guy claims to be Ahmed Deedat's student, perhaps South African bros could check this out?

[monotheist]

coming back to the point of brother monotheist,

Noble brother,
Before you go about following "Ahsanul Hadees" , the Qur'an only, we would like to know what leads you to deny the ahadeeth?

Salaam Usman :D

I would like to thank you for your help. It has only been a few months since I came across the rejection of hadith external to the Quran. Initially when I came across what is called the "19 miracle" and I thought it to be good to increase my faith. But then I found out that this Rashad Khalifah person claimed to be a messenger! And over time, I have read articles by people for and against this '19 miracle'. And I have realised that it was all a hoax as false proof of false messengership, as proven by someone who actually rejects hadith books external to the Quran. All evidence is available here...

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm

Through increasing my understanding of the Quran and the Arabic language I am going through a period of inner struggle to understand Islam. Among many, the following is an example of the verses that have always made me stop and think...

3:103
And hold firmly to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be separated. And remember God's blessings upon you when were enemies and he united your hearts, then you became with His blessings as brothers; and you were on the verge of a pit of fire and he saved you from it; it is thus that God clarifies for you His signs that you may be guided.

After the events of 9-11 etc, I began to think why people who call themselves Muslims doing things like killing innocent people, killing themselves, and general hatred towards people who aren’t exactly the same as them, and so I went back to square one, and verified my beliefs, and by the grace of God, I realised that the Quran is indeed the word of God, the most truthful book in the universe, because of the beauty of monotheism, the miracles it contains (not 19, thats not a miracle, I mean things like embryology, cosmology etc.), the laws it gives, it is indeed perfect. But then I fell back on 3:103, and I became confused as to why there are so many sects, having tried going to different types of mosques, some doing some things, some doing others, some even cursing each other for their differences. I wanted to understand why this is happening. I used to wonder why I have to be a Sunni Muslim rather than just a Muslim, and I used to satisfy my questions by thinking that it is the right way, and it has only been given a name of 'Sunnism', when in fact it is just "The Islam". In my prayers however, I had always asked the God to make me a good Muslim, and I never worded it as 'make me a good sunni', because I believe that the Quran never tells us to call ourselves Sunnis. In my search of the reason for the divisions I research Shiism, and rejected the idea from the outset, because much of it (as I found, no offence to any Shias here) was illogical, irrational, and in some ways, senseless, which I'm sure the majority will agree with without me having to go into too much detail.

I also came to see other sects, but I didn't see any truths in them to make me convert. So I re-evaluated myself, and my belief in Sunnism. And I came across the concept of accepting only the best hadith (al-quran), and my question as to what all these sects come from came to me, because if we all followed the Quran as the only necessary hadith, there would be no divisions. I have been brought up as someone who accepts hadith books external to the Quran, and as a young child I would go to the mosque with my father, and I would notice a few people in the mosque who would raise their hands extra times. On the way out of the mosque I can clearly remember how I used to ask my father "why didn't we do that?", and he would answer "becuase we are hanafi", or "because we follow Imam hanifa". I would ask why that was and my father would just laugh and drop the topic saying that I am too young to worry about these things. I grew a lot older and I still thought the same way. And whoever I would ask, they would tell me that their way is the right way, regardless, and I did not understand why there were so many ways about it, even between sunni mosques there were different ways people did things, like reciting/not reciting loudly immediately after congregational prayer, whilst some people were still performing 'non-Fardh' ritual prayer.

After doing more research I realised that such key differences and reasons for dividing into sects was that different people believed different hadiths. The Shias believed in their collection called 'khabr' and Sunnis believed in their own collections they called 'hadith or sahih-hadith'. There was practically no way to finding out which hadith to believe other than the one that I was supposed to believe through my upbringing. I found no real way to see which hadith books external to the Quran were correct, because anybody I would ask would always say that their collections were right. I researched what was called the ‘science of hadith collection’ but I realised that that was of no significance, because even in the most ‘authentic’ or ‘sahih’ hadith books like ‘sahih al bukhari’ there were more than enough instances of hadiths, which cannot possibly be true (and they haven’t been filtered out even today!), and nobody could ever present to me a complete collection of authentic hadiths external to the Quran.

As brother Usman said about Ahmad Deedat in post #24… “you cannot hold mere books to be someone's belief, until or unless he explicitly declares them his belief.” The only way out was to see what God and his messenger said in the best, perfect and divinely preserved hadith book ever, the Quran. The following are examples of verses in the Quran where God and his messenger (Who spoke the words of God) helped me...

2:79
So woe to those who write the scripture with their hands then say: “This is from God,” so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

25:30
And the messenger said: “My lord, my people have deserted this Quran.”

31:6
And from the people, there are those who accept baseless narrations (the Arabic word hadith is here, which I see as a sign from God) to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

68:36-38
What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book, which you study? In it, you can find what you wish?

77:50
So in what words after this will they believe?

These made me come to believe that we only need the best hadith (al-quran). I found that people who rejected hadith books external to the Quran were not always sure on topics like daily ritual prayer, because nothing is said about it in the Quran. What I found was that there were some people who had created another sect 'the submitters' based on Rashad Khalifah. And I realised that they had effectively made hadith from him and were following that! And I began to read forums and articles to find out more about the concepts of Islam in the light of the Quran, the most important of which I saw was that of daily ritual worship. And I realised why none of the details are in the Quran...

http://www.aididsafar.com

- I read the whole publication presented there ("The Hijacking of Islam"), and criticisms made of it, and I found that it was generally correct, despite minor mistakes which were addressed and amended in updated editions and on other websites.

But then I was still not satisfied, so I began to research what Sunni's say about rejecting hadith books external to the Quran, and I found that the arguments presented were not supported by the Quran at all (though I may be proven wrong here in this forum, in which case I will feel no shame in changing my view to be in line with the truth), in fact the Quran encouraged the opposite. I found that I needed to seek answers from people with knowledge, so I came here and joined a discussion in a thread, but that bore no fruit for me.

I was pretty convinced up to that point, and I read an on-line book, which firmed my belief in the non-sectarian Islam that was revealed to the prophet. http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm. (Please do not follow this link if you will be easily offended, I had previously posted a portion of the book on this forum, and I got banned, so I don't want to do that again, please do not follow the link, unless you genuinely want to see what I mean. I mean no offence to anybody). To the moderators: If you feel it right to remove this link from my post, please do so, but please don’t ban me.

After that thread got locked and my temporary ban was over, I decided that I would be more objective, and I opened this thread. My query was not intended to question Sunnism, but to seek the Sunni understanding of 68:37 with regards to hadith-al-qudsy, to understand why people accept hadith books external to the Quran. What I wanted to know is that to me this verse makes it clear that we don’t need any other book besides the Quran, and God is actively discouraging it, so I wanted to know what the Sunni understanding of this verse is.

Salaam.

[Omar HH]

Monotheist,

I suggest you do the following. Leave and pre-concieved notions that you have. Quit debating with people, even if your right. Put your hands up in prayer to God and ask him sincerely from the bottom of your heart to be guided to him. And don't come back on the board and say "you were wrong God guided me to hadith rejection" because it's ok - we have no interest in arguing with you. Just be sincere. Remember every breath is a footstep to death and that you are going to die. Nobody wants to die with the wrong beliefs. When it's all over it doesn't matter who won what argument, it's the Day of Judgement. May God bless you.

[monotheist]

Salaam.

Omar said:

Leave and pre-concieved notions that you have.

I am trying to do exactly that - this is why I ask for the Sunni interpretation of 68:37

Omar said:

Quit debating with people, even if your right.

Please refer to post #27.


My query was not intended to question Sunnism, but to seek the Sunni understanding of 68:37 with regards to hadith-al-qudsy

This is all I am asking for, I'm not saying that I am right, I want to know whether I am or not. The contents of my last post were only there because...

Usman said:

we would like to know what leads you to deny the ahadeeth?

Usman said:

It would be better if you rather ask us the Authority of Sunnah in Islam.

In your post…

Omar said;

Nobody wants to die with the wrong beliefs.

That’s why I wanted to ask about hadith-al-qudsy.

Omar said:

Not praying for your enemies is jealousy. - Imam Nawawi.

Make du'a for me.

I am a brother of yours in Islam, thus God willing I will make du'a for you, not because I think you are my enemy, though it appears you believe otherwise.

All I want to ask for is the Sunni interpretation of 68:37. I just want to know what the Sunni view is on the kinds of ‘other books’ God is talking about – I’m not here on this thread to ‘debate’ on ‘Hadith and Sunnah’ – I only wrote what I did in my last post because I was asked specifically by brother Usman. I apologise for any offence caused.

Salaam.

[Omar HH]

Thank you,

I apologize for saying you were arguing. We will insha Allah give you the Sunni understanding. I just ask that you ask God to guide you, because if you ask him he will put you on the right path - as long as you ask him out of sincerity, and you will not have to worry.

Without starting a debate or anything, what is your interpretation of why all the major Sunni and Shi'a imams of the past 1400 years have accepted the hadith?

And Imam at-Tahawi was the first to write a doctrine of belief about 300 years after hijrah. It was the codifying of the beliefs of the Salaf. You should read it, search "Tahawi" on sunniforum.

God bless you.

The Sunni interpreation of that verse, ask someone who has a tafsir handy.

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

Ya Akhi Monotheism - I would have to state with utmost Adab and praying that you do not get offended that certain claims of yours are basically unfounded.

Sidi, you stated:


After doing more research I realised that such key differences and reasons for dividing into sects was that different people believed different hadiths.

The above is not true at all. Rather there have been many differences in 'Aqida aswell as in Fiqh because of the limited understanding the people have of the Qur'an. Anyone who has studied the classical Arabic language will know that it abounds in metaphors, metonyms, figures of speech and rhetorical embellishments for indeed a scripture devoid of such features would hardly be looked upon as "revealed" or 'divine" by the Arabs.

Due to this, the language of the Qur'an and the verses of the Qur'an are open to interpretation.

The Khawarij used the Qur'anic verse, "The decision rests with Allah only" (6:57, 12:40, 12:67) to rebel against Sayyidina Ali. The Shias use the verse "Obey Allah and His Messenger and those in authority" (4:59) to prove the infallibility of the Ulul Al Amr due to the fact that there obedience is coupled with Allahs and the Prophets. Some people consider Sayyidina Isa to be dead due to the word "Mutawafika" which in the Arabic language is a "strange word" constituting multiple meanings. Similarly, the period of Iddah is a debated issue not because of Hadith, but because of the multiple meanings of the word used for it in the Qur'an, both of which can make perfect sense.

You further have those who say Allah is sitting next to me due to the verse "He is with you everywhere you are" (57:4), the belief that He has "hands" and a "shin" and that He "descends" and moves like creatures due to the various verses mentioning "Yad" and "saq" etc.

Does this my dear brother seem to you like differences that arose because of Hadith?

You my Habib then said:


I researched what was called the ‘science of hadith collection’ but I realised that that was of no significance, because even in the most ‘authentic’ or ‘sahih’ hadith books like ‘sahih al bukhari’ there were more than enough instances of hadiths, which cannot possibly be true (and they haven’t been filtered out even today!), and nobody could ever present to me a complete collection of authentic hadiths external to the Quran.

But Ya Habibi, how can you expect to come to a valid conclusion or even get to the root of the issue when your access to the books on the science of Hadith is limited?

You claimed that there are Hadith in Bukhari which "cannot possibly be true" but is this our 'Aql telling us it cannot be true, and if it is then how do we place our 'Aql over the Lawmaker i.e. Allah and His Messenger? The non-muslims have mustered up much from the Quran to show that "so and so is not true" and that "so and so is contradictory" but we do not take their words for it.


The only way out was to see what God and his messenger said in the best, perfect and divinely preserved hadith book ever, the Quran

Hadith is simply an Arabic word which can have different connotations depending on context. It is the same as the claim of the Shia that just because the word "Shia" is in the Qur'an that they are right - which is Highly illogical from a linguistic point of view.

Let us look at some examples:

وَهَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى

1. Has the Hadith of Moses reached you? ( 20:9)

هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى

2. Has the Hadith of Moses reached you? (79:15)

هَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ ضَيْفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْمُكْرَمِينَ

3. Has the Hadith reached you, of the honored guests of Abraham? (51:24)

هَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ الْجُنُودِ

4. Has the Hadith reached you, of the Forces? (85:17)

There are many, many other examples...

Insha'Allah Sidi this will serve as a starter - I will over this weekend (or probably after tuesday) bring explanations to the verses you have asked for.

Wasalam

[monotheist]

Salaam

Dear brother Salman, you da man! I will write a post in response after you put up the post you poromised here...


I will over this weekend (or probably after tuesday) bring explanations to the verses you have asked for.

For now though, could you please tell me what the following terms meant in your post, (I know for a fact their not insults, rest assured, I'm not accusing you brother) I'm just not familiar with the following terms...

Ya Akhi - Sidi - You my Habib - Ya Habibi

Salaam.

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

They mean (starting from left to right):

- Ya Akhi (Oh My brother)

- Sidi (My master)

- You my Habib (you my beloved)

- Ya Habibi (Oh my beloved)

Wasalam

[monotheist]

Thanks! (In anticipation of your post)

[Usman]

bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,

Noble brother monotheist,

as you stated :


After the events of 9-11 etc, I began to think why people who call themselves Muslims doing things like killing innocent people, killing themselves, and general hatred towards people who aren’t exactly the same as them, and so I went back to square one, and verified my beliefs,

also:



I have been brought up as someone who accepts hadith books external to the Quran, and as a young child I would go to the mosque with my father, and I would notice a few people in the mosque who would raise their hands extra times. On the way out of the mosque I can clearly remember how I used to ask my father "why didn't we do that?", and he would answer "becuase we are hanafi", or "because we follow Imam hanifa". I would ask why that was and my father would just laugh and drop the topic saying that I am too young to worry about these things. I grew a lot older and I still thought the same way. And whoever I would ask, they would tell me that their way is the right way, regardless, and I did not understand why there were so many ways about it, even between sunni mosques there were different ways people did things, like reciting/not reciting loudly immediately after congregational prayer, whilst some people were still performing 'non-Fardh' ritual prayer.

Let us take the first part(partial). Apparently, the reason why you changed was because you were afraid of what happened at 9/11. This turns out more like a psychological problem than religious. I suggest you visit :
www.shariah-institute.org and listen to the Lecture "Signs of the days of fitnah" by Maulana Riyadhul Haqq sahib (Damat Barakatuhum).

After that, let us see what Qur'an tells us about listening to news and events. In Surah Hujaraat, "If a Fasiq brings news to you, do research". We are told if a sinner MUSLIM brings us the news, we should verify. For almost 99% of people who today talk against Taliban, and the Mujahideen, and so called "AlQaida Terrorism Network", haven't seen them, or their work, even once a glimpse.

It's strange to see we beleive the words of the enemies of Islam, rather than beleiving the words of the Islamic Emirates, who said they are not responsible.
Hence, saying, or rather, thinking that people who are not EXACTLY the same as AlQAIDA or stuff, should be killed, "According to them", is not correct.
These very people whose hatred led you to re-evaluate your views on Islamic beleifs, have more tolerance for their Muslim fellows, than the common Muslims themselves.

The second part of what I quoted, is also related to the first one. These so-called extremist, terrorist people (let's take as Hanbalis and Shafiis), have been seen "NOT" raising their hands when praying behind their hanafi fellow "terrorists".

The question arises, why do they do such and act, should be understandible in my next post. coming .................. now

[Usman]

The following is an excerpt from Mufti Ahmed Mumtaz Sahib (damat barakatuhum)'s "EIGHT RULINGS" Preface.


Islam, from its start to the end, is a collection of virtues and perfections. One of its virtues is that, its rulings are categorized, following which, the orders of Islam are acted upon with great beauty and magnificence.

Similarly, its significance can be estimated by the fact that the one who lifts an act, or ruling of an ordinary level , to the higher category, gets listed among the "Dhalleen" , due to exaggeration, and the one who inferiors the ruling of higher order to the lower, is counted one of the "Maghdhoobun alaihim" , due to understatement.

An explanation of this abstraction is that , for example "salaah", is a hukme Shar'ee , and a categorization in this hukm is in the manner that, one category is Fardh, such that two raka'at of fajr, four of zuhr,asr and isha, and three of maghrib. The second category is of Wajib, such as Salaatul witr, Salaatul Eid etc. The third category is of Sunnat Maukkadah , such as two Sunnah of fajr, four and two (total six) of zuhr, etc. Fourth category is of Sunnah ghayr zayd and nafil, such as four or two or four raka'at of nafil before Asr, or Isha etc. etc.

In the same manner, let's take infaq fisabeelillah(spending money in the path of Allah). The category of fardh includes Zaka'ah, wajib includes sadqatul fitr and sacrifice and nafil includes the nafil charity, etc.

Respected readers! Identically, there are various categories of differences, each having a separate ruling.


Classes of Difference

First Category:

Is the difference of Islam and Kufr (disbelief). Faith in all necessary Islamic beliefs is Islam, and denial of a single out of them, is Kufr. Such is the difference between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

Ruling:

Ruling on this category is that this different is contemptible; whomsoever joins a religion other than Islam, with be deviated and reprobated. Allah Almighty states in the Qur'an "ومن يبتغ غير الاسلام دين فلن يقبل منه" and at another instance, "انّ الدين عند الله الاسلام".

Second Category:

Is the difference of Sunnah and Bid'ah(innovation). Accepting the creed of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, a person enters the Ahlus sunnah wal Jama'ah, and starts to walk upon their, and the one who strays from it, joins the ahlul-bid'ah or ahlul-hawa, and wanders in the darkness of innovations.

Ruling:

Ruling on this category is also contemptible, for Rasoolullah(صلى الله عليه وسلم) said "My Ummah will be divided into seventy three (73) sects, out of whom one will be naji, and all others will be naari." When the Sahabah (رضى الله عنهم) asked about the naaji(saved) sect, Rasoolullah(صلى الله عليه وسلم) told the sign of them as : " ما انا عليه و اصحابه" meaning those whose actions are like me and my ash'hab(companions), will be the saved-sect. All others , whether they are Qadriyah, or Jabriyah or Mu'tazillah etc. will be infernal.
Consequently, it can be deduced from the aforementioned hadeeth, that this sort of difference is also contemptible, and all other sects other than the "Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah" are infernal.

Third Category:

Is the difference of Ijtihad2, for one Mujtahid's implication is totally contradictory to the suggestion of another mujtahid.

Ruling:

Ruling of this difference is that it is praiseworthy. Every mujtahid(as per Hadeeth of Bukhari and Muslim) is granted either two, or one ajr(reward), and reward, is the daleel of the fact, that every mujtahid is commendable, upon the right path, and a leader of the convoy to Jannah(heaven).

___________Xx ________Xx _____________xX_____

Dear brother, the differences you mentioned, esp. the ones about raising hands in Rukoo , Saying aameen loud or low, fall into the third category.

This is the way of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah [ Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki, Hanbali] that we do not debate with each other over these issues, because we have our views, proven through Qur'an, Hadeeth, Ijma , Qiyaas.

The only people you will find going against this categorization, are the Ghayr Muqallideen/Pathless/salafi/AhleHadeeth. They belong to a deviant group other than the Ahlus SUnnah wal Jama'ah.

Frankly, I would not feel a single bit wrong if I pray behind a Maliki who doesn't fold his hands, or a Shafii, who does Rafa Yadayn etc. etc. Rather, we all pray behind Hanbali Imams when we pray in Ka'aba.

[Usman]

Just to add , the verse you mentioned (of Surah Qalam), is connected to other verses too, and is an extension of the previous ones. Just taking one ayat, and making ones own decision according to is, is not the right way. Besides, saying that Hadeeth itself is another book, is incorrect too.

The way of the Ahlus SUnnah wal Jama'ah, is that Hadeeth is the context and explanation of Qur'an, the code of Life. That is why I asked you if you would like to know the Authority of Sunnah in Islam. There are many ayaat which explicate the Sunnah of Rasoolullah(Alaiih salaatu wasSalaam), to be Hujjah in Islamic jurisprudence. I will inshaAllah post them, once you respond that the first posts clear your mind regarding the respective issues.

wasSalaam,
Usman

[monotheist]

Sorry about the delay people, bin very busy, I'll be back with my posts soon insh-allah

[salman]

Salamu Alaikum

Brother Mono, I apologies i havent provided the explanation to the verse yet - beene xtremely busy (uni, tests etc)

[Abu Suliman]

to abu suliman who stated
"brother we should believe he is a sunni unless we find clear evidence that he is not, we should have good opinion of him and pray for him"

wat makes u think being a sunni is such a good thing??

it is ur opinion that it is.

well atleast we wont be punished for our aqeedah and it is defientely million times better then being a shia.

[Muawiyah]

From elsewhere regarding Ahmed deedat/Muhammad Shaikh


Assalamoalaikum..
This is Waqas Samana (from Durban, South Africa) ... I visited my Uncle on July 14th 2005.. my Uncle who was awarded King Faisal International award ... The Great Islamic Soldier "SHEIKH AHMED DEEDAT". I don't think that there is any need to write more about him as the whole world knows that he has done a lifttime struggle to propagate Islam and to defend Islam against the onslaught missionaries... he is not only an Islamic Scholar.. but a real Islamic Soldier.

On July 14th, 2005 at 4:00 PM ... Sheikh Ahmed Deedat clearified that "Sheikh Ahmed Deedat DISAGREES with the teachings of Mohammed Sheikh" in his residence at 49, Treveren Road, Lotusville, Verulam, South Africa.

He further clearified that the person who denies Hadith of Prophet Mohammed Peace Be Upon Him is a weak Muslim.

IPCI's director sent me to see Sheikh Ahmed Deedat & his son Yousuf Deedat in their own IPCI's car from Durban to Verulam.

ALHAMDULILLAH it was a great pleasure to see him again n one more unforgettable day of my life.

Message from Yousuf Deedat s/o Sheikh Deedat to Mohammed Sheikh of IIPC. "If u say that u r a student of Sheikh Deedat then why u never came to see Sheikh Deedat?.. the whole world is coming to see him everyday but you never came since many years.. we want you to come & see Sheikh Ahmed Deedat."