ANSWERED: Stoning and Lashing

[al-kushiari]

asalaamu alaikum

certain people dont take the hadeeth on stoning as they consider it to "contradict" the Qur'an whereas it doesnt as stoning is mass-transmitted in ahadeeth. I know that a non-married people will get lashes and married stoning..

But where is the proof of this from Quran and Ahadeeth? how is it distinguished that stoning is for married and lashing for non-married?

[Mossy]

Salam,

I've never really seen why this actually matters.

1) Hadd punishment can only be applied when Shariah is extant
2) Hadd punishment occurs when both the rights of Allah (swt) and society are infringed upon
3) The criterion for "conviction" is either a confession or a certain number of witnesses at the time of penetration, who must, of course, be of good character
4) Thus if witnesses of this number are present it must be a public order offence and we go back to 1)
5) When Ma'iz asked Abu Bakr/Umar, they indicated he should repent and be quiet about his sin..

It's a funny old story though is Ma'iz's..

I'll leave this topic for now and let people with knowledge of the Hanafi perspective take over - however, crack open Bukhari book 82 and give it a skim for some hadith pertaining to why Hanafi's believe it is the case. Well, that plus the doctrine of naksh (it's considered naksh and not takhsis, right?)..

ws

Mossy

[ibnu Rashid]

There is an aayah, which is now ghayr-matloo (no longer recited) which contains the hukm.

Insha'Allah one of the 'ulama can finish it, but i believe it started with the words"ash-shaykhu wa ash-shaykatu." Wallahu a'alam.

[Mossy]

There is an aayah, which is now ghayr-matloo (no longer recited) which contains the hukm.

Insha'Allah one of the 'ulama can finish it, but i believe it started with the words"ash-shaykhu wa ash-shaykatu." Wallahu a'alam.

Ash-shaykhu wa ash-shaykatu itha zanaya farjumu huma al-battata?

It's in Malik.. But not Muslim or Bukhari?

I've never understood how recitation abrogating/ruling established worked. Someone care to enlighten me?

[al-kushiari]

ive not gone as far as learning naskh

seems like an interesting topic

[eat-halal guy]

‏حدثني ‏ ‏أبو الطاهر ‏ ‏وحرملة بن يحيى ‏ ‏قالا حدثنا ‏ ‏ابن وهب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏قال أخبرني ‏ ‏عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة ‏ ‏أنه سمع ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عباس ‏ ‏يقول قال ‏‏ عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏وهو جالس على منبر رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏
‏إن الله قد بعث ‏ ‏محمدا ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏بالحق وأنزل عليه الكتاب فكان مما أنزل عليه آية الرجم قرأناها ووعيناها وعقلناها ‏ ‏فرجم ‏ ‏رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ورجمنا ‏ ‏بعده ‏ ‏فأخشى إن طال بالناس زمان أن يقول قائل ما نجد ‏ ‏الرجم ‏ ‏في كتاب الله فيضلوا بترك فريضة أنزلها الله وإن ‏ ‏الرجم ‏ ‏في كتاب الله حق على من زنى إذا ‏ ‏أحصن ‏ ‏من الرجال والنساء إذا قامت ‏ ‏البينة ‏ ‏أو كان الحبل أو ‏ ‏الاعتراف

( صحيح مسلم )




'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession. (Muslim)


Also see: http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002095.aspx

[eTeacher]

This stoning to death is not only according to Islam but even in the Jewish and Christian religion, they have stoning to death. Check out the following interesting Hadith from Sahih Muslim:

'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
A Jew and a Jewess, who had committed adultery, were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for those guilty of adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hands on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. 'Abdullah bin Salam who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

It's even in the Christian religion. If stoning was still prevalent today, Kobe Bryant would have been history!

[Mariah]

"The adulterer and the adulteres, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred strips. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from the obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness thier punishment."

(Surah Noor, Verse 2)

[Mossy]

..or it there is pregnancy..

Is this an agreed upon position extrapolated from that hadith? I remember there was some dispute as to sr Lawal's case on this one..

It's also caused problems regarding Pakistan's "implementation" of the huddud ordinances pertaining to rape..

The sections pursuant to stoning in the old testament are Deuteronomy 22:23 and Leviticus (fun book) 20:10. Again the exact language is interesting.. According to Talmudic tradition you can get stoned for all sorts of things.. This hadith is interesting also as a corollary to 5:43 in the Qu'ran, especially when you see the other narrations..

With reference to the Judaic punishment, I have a query.

We have the following two hadiths:


Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 804:
Narrated Ash Shaibani:

I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa, 'Did Allah's Apostle carry out the Rajam penalty ( i.e., stoning to death)?' He said, "Yes." I said, "Before the revelation of Surat-ar-Nur or after it?" He replied, "I don't Know."

Referring of course to the ayat sr Mariah referenced.

We also have an alternate narration of the hadith that brother eTeacher referenced in Sunan Abu Dawud:


Sunan Abu Dawud Book 38, Number 4435:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

(This is Ma'mar's version which is more accurate.) A man and a woman of the Jews committed fornication.

Some of them said to the others: <b>Let us go to this Prophet, for he has been sent with an easy law. If he gives a judgment lighter than stoning, we shall accept it, and argue about it with Allah, saying: It is a judgment of one of your prophets.</b> So they came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) who was sitting in the mosque among his companions.

They said: AbulQasim, what do you think about a man and a woman who committed fornication? He did not speak to them a word till he went to their school.

He stood at the gate and said: I adjure you by Allah Who revealed the Torah to Moses, what (punishment) do you find in the Torah for a person who commits fornication, if he is married?

They said: He shall be blackened with charcoal, taken round a donkey among the people, and flogged. A young man among them kept silent.

When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) emphatically adjured him, he said: By Allah, since you have adjured us (we inform you that) we find stoning in the Torah (is the punishment for fornication).

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: So when did you lessen the severity of Allah's command? He said:

A relative of one of our kings had committed fornication, but his stoning was suspended. Then a man of a family of common people committed fornication. He was to have been stoned, but his people intervened and said: Our man shall not be stoned until you bring your man and stone him. So they made a compromise on this punishment between them.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: So I decide in accordance with what the Torah says. He then commanded regarding them and they were stoned to death.

Az-Zuhri said: We have been informed that this verse was revealed about them: "It was We Who revealed the Law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will.

The part I'm curious about is highlighted (the rest adds some detail).. A generalised easy law (Islam is easy after all), or the specific one of public humiliation instead of death?

Still, the standard position is as br ibnu Rashid indicated - the recitation is abrogated on the basis of Umar's narration and the number of sahih (but ahad?) hadith to this effect - something which is permissable according to the tenets of naksh in Hanafi doctrine as hadith can abrogate Qu'ran and vice versa if deemed sufficiently authentic.

And as before, it doesn't really matter.. Does it?

[eat-halal guy]

Is this an agreed upon position extrapolated from that hadith? I remember there was some dispute as to sr Lawal's case on this one..

It's also caused problems regarding Pakistan's "implementation" of the huddud ordinances pertaining to rape..





وقال الشافعي وأبو حنيفة وجماهير العلماء : لا حد عليها بمجرد الحبل سواء لها زوج أو سيد أم لا , سواء الغريبة وغيرها , وسواء ادعت الإكراه أم سكتت فلا حد عليهامطلقا إلا ببينة أو اعتراف ; لأن الحدود تسقط بالشبهات

( صحيح مسلم بشرح النووي )


According to Imams Shafi` and Abu Hanifah, as well as the majority of scholars (Rahmtullahe `Alaihim), there is no hudd (i.e. the punishment) due to pregnancy, regardless of whether or not the accused has a husband or a master.....regardless of whether she claims force (i.e. rape) or remains quiet, there is no hudd for her, except with proof or confession, because the hudood (punishments prescribed by the Shariah) are dropped due to doubt.

(Sharh al-Nawawi ala Sahih Muslim - commentary on Sahih Muslim)




And as before, it doesn't really matter.. Does it?

True, it really doesn't. :p

[al-kushiari]

salaam

jazakAllahu Khair for all the help :D