Subcontinent fatiha pronunciation

[faqir]

as-salamu alaikum sh. Husain / abu Hajira / others,

I've noticed our imam often recites

Şirāţa Al-Lazīna 'An`amta

instead of

Şirāţa Al-Ladhīna 'An`amta

Could you please comment on the validity of his and our prayer.

JazakumAllahu khayran.

[Saad]

Assalam o alaykum,

There is a detailed discussion by 'Allamah Sarfaraz Khan Safdar (may Allah have mercy on him) in Tanqid Matim (http://www.4shared.com/file/81223781/bb4463ea/Tanqid-i-Matim_-_Allamah_Sarfraz_Khan.html). It starts on p.23 of the book and p.34 of the file.

He touches this masala in even more detail in Itmam al-Burhan but this book is not available online at the moment.

[True Life]

:salam:

Arabs pronounce it "dh", but Pakistanis say it's "z".
So, what is the correct pronounciation of the letter: "z" or "dh"?

[sudoku]

:salam:

It's الذين, ie with a ذ.

http://www.quranicsciences.com/NooraaniQaaidah/OneSheetNooraaniQaaidah.asp?lessonno=1&visitormonid=422071

Click the letter ذ for it's pronunciation.

[faqir]

as-salamu `alaikum sa'ad

does the shaykh specifically deal with the verse i am referring to above in the document?

[sudoku]

:salam:
as-salamu `alaikum sa'ad

does the shaykh specifically deal with the verse i am referring to above in the document?
Yes, please check the following link.

http://www.quranicsciences.com/QuranReciter.asp?lessonno=1&visitormonid=422071&reciter=mkhan&toggletajweedrules=&firstayah=1&lastayah=7#1

:insh: hope this helps!

edit: Use IE for this site


edit #2: just saw the sa'ad part. :rolleyes:

[faqir]

`alaikum salam

err... i meant in saad's link of Tanqid Matim - but thanks anyway!

[abuhajira]

`alaikum salam

err... i meant in saad's link of Tanqid Matim - but thanks anyway!

:salam:

The sheikh deals with change of letters while reciting in Salah. He starts the discussion under the "Dhua" (ض)being interchanged with "Za"(ظ or ز). and then continues to give example of Dhal (ذ)being changed with Zaa (ز) or Zua (ظ)

The book is in urdu.. you can get it read out and explained. You can also check the arabic excerpts he has give.

I remember once talking to Mufti Ebrahim Desai Saheb about this issue and he mentioned that there is a difference in understanding among the fuqaha, those who have close liking towards the field of tajweed are very stern on the issue, while those who are more inclined to usool and fiqh, tend to find leeway for those who try to correct themself but are unable to because of some reason.

My tajweed teacher (urdu speaking) was one of the stern ones, but he mentioned that what is required of the person is that he realizes this deficiency and make an effort to rectify it. As long as he does so, even if he takes years to master it, his Salah will be valid and not void of any Barakah.

As for the fiqhi understanding of it, the book seems detail enough. But nonetheless, i will get a better answer from my Qari br. in law.. Fatawa Rasheediya Pg 271 talks about pronouncing ض from makharij of ظ د , provided that he does not do so out of deliberation rather as a ma'zuri while trying to rectify.

:ws:

[AbdullahbinAbdullah]

:salam:

Arabs pronounce it "dh", but Pakistanis say it's "z".
So, what is the correct pronounciation of the letter: "z" or "dh"?

Bismillah

Sayyidi I don't know the fiqh of this but from the little I know of Tajweed (ref: Jazariyyah, almuhakhallas almufid fi al3lm altajweed):

Zay: Exit point: the tip of the tongue near the end (tip/cutting part) of the top incisors but not touching them (important)

Dhal: tip of the tongue touching the tip (cutting end) of top incisors .

Other than Makharij/ exit points the letters have Sifat/ characteristics. The only difference between the two letters (Zay and Dhal) is that Zay has Safir (Whisteling) which Dhal does not have. Traditionally whistling is mentioned as the sound of a certain bird but it is more closer to a hiss as one of my teachers said. And Allah Ta'ala knows best.

So to summarize the letters have two differences: Makhraj (Exit point) and one Characteristic.

[faqir]

:salam:

The sheikh deals with change of letters while reciting in Salah. He starts the discussion under the "Dhua" (ض)being interchanged with "Za"(ظ or ز). and then continues to give example of Dhal (ذ)being changed with Zaa (ز) or Zua (ظ)

The book is in urdu.. you can get it read out and explained. You can also check the arabic excerpts he has give.

I remember once talking to Mufti Ebrahim Desai Saheb about this issue and he mentioned that there is a difference in understanding among the fuqaha, those who have close liking towards the field of tajweed are very stern on the issue, while those who are more inclined to usool and fiqh, tend to find leeway for those who try to correct themself but are unable to because of some reason.

My tajweed teacher (urdu speaking) was one of the stern ones, but he mentioned that what is required of the person is that he realizes this deficiency and make an effort to rectify it. As long as he does so, even if he takes years to master it, his Salah will be valid and not void of any Barakah.

As for the fiqhi understanding of it, the book seems detail enough. But nonetheless, i will get a better answer from my Qari br. in law.. Fatawa Rasheediya Pg 271 talks about pronouncing ض from makharij of ظ د , provided that he does not do so out of deliberation rather as a ma'zuri while trying to rectify.

:ws:


as-salamu `alaikum sidi

please try to get an answer specific to the ayah I mentioned above in post 1. i'm not too worried about the daaliin / zaaliin issue as it is not relevant to our imam but it may be worth clarifying that in addition.

[Talib84]

I remember once talking to Mufti Ebrahim Desai Saheb about this issue and he mentioned that there is a difference in understanding among the fuqaha, those who have close liking towards the field of tajweed are very stern on the issue, while those who are more inclined to usool and fiqh, tend to find leeway for those who try to correct themself but are unable to because of some reason.

My tajweed teacher (urdu speaking) was one of the stern ones, but he mentioned that what is required of the person is that he realizes this deficiency and make an effort to rectify it. As long as he does so, even if he takes years to master it, his Salah will be valid and not void of any Barakah.

As for the fiqhi understanding of it, the book seems detail enough. But nonetheless, i will get a better answer from my Qari br. in law.. Fatawa Rasheediya Pg 271 talks about pronouncing ض from makharij of ظ د , provided that he does not do so out of deliberation rather as a ma'zuri while trying to rectify.

But how can the above apply to this case? Once a person knows the different makhraj of the dhal and za, he just has to try to differentiate between the two letters. How can there be a leeway for him? I understand if he has some natural problem which prevents the letter from sounding correct, but the point is he has the knowledge and is trying. In my 10 years of madrasah days, all of the Alims and masjid Imams that taught me never saw the need to teach me how to differentiate a single letter. Initially I learnt the basics of the different makharij a few years back by reading a book on tajweed. One can even read the notes on the back of the Quran.

[abuhajira]

as-salamu `alaikum sidi

please try to get an answer specific to the ayah I mentioned above in post 1. i'm not too worried about the daaliin / zaaliin issue as it is not relevant to our imam but it may be worth clarifying that in addition.

:salam:

InshAllah I will. Here is the pertinent piece from the book Saad bhai gave.


http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1098/lahanharfbadalnasalah.jpg

however, you will find the mas'ala under this same discussion of duaaleen and zaaleen. The issue pertains more to the Tashabuh between the the interchanged letters.

:ws:

[faqir]

as-salamu `alaikum

interestingly when I asked a brother studying the shafi'i madhhab abroad who i did some tajwid lessons with in the past he said that according to what he had been taught the salah would be invalid in his madhhab.

i've asked another hanafi shaykh for an answer specific to my query above but anyway I thought I'd also share here some excerpts from fatawa ridawiyya:



fatawa ridawiyyah vol.6, pg.339

question 505:

zayd says that it is necessary to learn the makharij and pronounce properly is obligatory. yes, if one cannot do that in spite of trying hard, if one cannot pronounce he/she has a valid excuse. if a person does not know the makhraj at all or he knows about them, but does not pronounce accordingly, then: his namaz/salat is not valid at all.

[after all] if most muslims omit an obligatory action or commit a forbidden action, it doesn't make it permissible just because this majority has committed it.

first of all, muslims don't pray at all. and those who pray are not regular in their prayer. 99% of them do not abstain from backbiting.

are zayd's comment correct or not?

---
answer:

all of zayd's comments above are correct except the words: 'salat is not valid if makharij are not known'. it is not necessary to know about the makharij; but it is important to pronounce the letter properly. there are many people who cannot describe the makharij but they can recite properly and they have learnt it by just hearing it (from reciters) and practice.

even an illiterate urdu speaker can pronounce the letters of his language correctly but cannot describe the makhraj.

Allah ta'ala knows best.



fatawa ridawiyyah vol.6, pg.339

question 506:
please describe where in the books of fiqh is it written that it is farD ayn (obligatory for one and all) to recite the qur'an with (minimum) tajwid that every letter is pronounced distinctly; if true, in which book is it present and in which place in that book. if you can recall a hadith at the moment in this regard, please include it in the answer.

---
answer:

it is clearly written in all the books that if one letter is replaced with another in recitation namaz is invalid when the meaning is violated and if:

- it is due to inability according to the correct and relied upon opinion (madh'hab)
- it is due to error according to our imams
- when such a word is not found in the qur'an, according to imam abu yusuf

it is impossible to avoid it unless one learns it (from a reciter). and it is farD ayn to protect oneself from such things that cause one's prayer to be invalid. Allah ta'ala has said: 'do not invalidate your deeds'.


in muqaddimah al-jazriyyah it is written:
idh wajibun alayhimu muHattamu
qabla al-shuru'uyi awwalan an ya'alamu

makharij al-Hurufi wa's Sifati
li yanTiqu bi afSahi'l lughaati

so it is obligatory and necessary
before starting to recite the qur'an to know

the articulation of letters and their attributes
so that one can properly pronounce the most eloquent of languages.

Allah ta'ala knows best.


Hopefully I will get a more specific and clear reply to my specific query from a Hanafi.......[!!!]

was-salam

[faqir]

as-salamu `alaikum abu Hajira
did you get a chance to ask your tajwid teacher?