Imam Razi (ra) and debating

[haqq]

Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi [1149-1209] (Rahmatullah Alayhi) was a Shafi Scholar and a Mujtahid Imam. He debated against the sheyites and other deviant groups with logic. He wrote a 32 volume Quran Tafseer.

He had become very famous for his work. Before he died and after he had become famous, he looked for a Sheikh in Tasawwuf. He traveled a long distance and found a big Sufi Sheikh. He asked to be the Sheikh's mureed, the sheikh said ok but only if you leave all the debating and logic stuff that you learned. After a short while Imam Razi finally agreed.

So the sheikh made him sit down and put a blanket or sheet over the entire body of Imam Razi. As soon as the sheet went over his head he felt all the ilm, that he had acquired on debating, starting to leaving him. So Imam Razi immediately threw the sheet off. The Sheikh asked why he did that. So Imam Razi told him because he felt all of his knowledge going away. The Sheikh said but this is my condition for you to follow me and you agreed. Again the sheikh put the sheet on Imam Razi and again it had the same affect. And again Imam Razi threw it off. This time Imam Razi said he was sorry but he could not do it. But Imam Razi (rahmatullah alayh) asked that the sheikh make dua that he (imam razi) die with iman and the Sheikh agreed. Imam razi left and travelled all the way back to his home.

Some time later, maybe years, or months later, the Sheikh was walking with a jug full of water for wudhu. Suddenly he threw the jug full of water against the wall. Then he pointed to the wall and said "say, you believe in allah without daleel."

The people were shocked. They asked the sheikh what was the matter. Allah had given the sheikh khasf. He saw hundreds of miles away Imam Razi on his deathbed. Shaitan had come to Imam Razi with the challenge: prove Allah exists. So Imam Razi gave proof from logic and shaitan broke the proof with his logic. This went on for 99 times. Now Imam Razi had no more proofs. He was finished. At that time the Sheikh saw this because Allah showed him the condition of imam razi. When the shiekh said say you believe in allah with out daleel, Imam Razi heard it and said it then died straightaway.

This is the danger of getting into a field (debating) only the very pious can do. And we are no way near the level of Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (Rahmatullah Alayh).

This is Imam Razi (ra) who wrote 32 volumes Tafseer which is still used. Nobody today is writing 32 volume Tafseer. Recently, Ma'arful Quraan Volume 8 was translated into English and that still is 16 volumes less than Imam Razi's 24 Tafseer. And that too took two scholars (father and son) 35 years to complete into English.

Maluana Jalaluddin Rumi (rahmatullah alayh) Said:

"If intellect was sufficient for the comprehension of the revealed truths,
Then the rationalists, logicians and dialecticians would have also shared in the secrets of Religion.
And if the intellect could discern the true way in this question,
Then Fakhr al-Razi would be an expert in Religious mysteries."

Maulana Rumi felt that these sciences of debate and logic etc cloud the knowledge of reality and make the seeker of the truth skeptical. So, he says leave it alone, if you want to make your faith strong.

AND IT IS ONLY ALLAH WHO IS THE ONE THAT GUIDES THE HEARTS. WE ASK THAT HE GUIDE OUR HEARTS TO THE TRUTH.

- Maulana Hassan Ali Suleiman

[Sad ibn Abu Waqqas]

Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi [1149-1209] (Rahmatullah Alayhi) was a Shafi Scholar and a Mujtahid Imam. He debated against the sheyites and other deviant groups with logic. He wrote a 32 volume Quran Tafseer.

He had become very famous for his work. Before he died and after he had become famous, he looked for a Sheikh in Tasawwuf. He traveled a long distance and found a big Sufi Sheikh. He asked to be the Sheikh's mureed, the sheikh said ok but only if you leave all the debating and logic stuff that you learned. After a short while Imam Razi finally agreed.

So the sheikh made him sit down and put a blanket or sheet over the entire body of Imam Razi. As soon as the sheet went over his head he felt all the ilm, that he had acquired on debating, starting to leaving him. So Imam Razi immediately threw the sheet off. The Sheikh asked why he did that. So Imam Razi told him because he felt all of his knowledge going away. The Sheikh said but this is my condition for you to follow me and you agreed. Again the sheikh put the sheet on Imam Razi and again it had the same affect. And again Imam Razi threw it off. This time Imam Razi said he was sorry but he could not do it. But Imam Razi (rahmatullah alayh) asked that the sheikh make dua that he (imam razi) die with iman and the Sheikh agreed. Imam razi left and travelled all the way back to his home.

Some time later, maybe years, or months later, the Sheikh was walking with a jug full of water for wudhu. Suddenly he threw the jug full of water against the wall. Then he pointed to the wall and said "say, you believe in allah without daleel."

The people were shocked. They asked the sheikh what was the matter. Allah had given the sheikh khasf. He saw hundreds of miles away Imam Razi on his deathbed. Shaitan had come to Imam Razi with the challenge: prove Allah exists. So Imam Razi gave proof from logic and shaitan broke the proof with his logic. This went on for 99 times. Now Imam Razi had no more proofs. He was finished. At that time the Sheikh saw this because Allah showed him the condition of imam razi. When the shiekh said say you believe in allah with out daleel, Imam Razi heard it and said it then died straightaway.

This is the danger of getting into a field (debating) only the very pious can do. And we are no way near the level of Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (Rahmatullah Alayh).

This is Imam Razi (ra) who wrote 32 volumes Tafseer which is still used. Nobody today is writing 32 volume Tafseer. Recently, Ma'arful Quraan Volume 8 was translated into English and that still is 16 volumes less than Imam Razi's 24 Tafseer. And that too took two scholars (father and son) 35 years to complete into English.

Maluana Jalaluddin Rumi (rahmatullah alayh) Said:

"If intellect was sufficient for the comprehension of the revealed truths,
Then the rationalists, logicians and dialecticians would have also shared in the secrets of Religion.
And if the intellect could discern the true way in this question,
Then Fakhr al-Razi would be an expert in Religious mysteries."

Maulana Rumi felt that these sciences of debate and logic etc cloud the knowledge of reality and make the seeker of the truth skeptical. So, he says leave it alone, if you want to make your faith strong.

AND IT IS ONLY ALLAH WHO IS THE ONE THAT GUIDES THE HEARTS. WE ASK THAT HE GUIDE OUR HEARTS TO THE TRUTH.

- Maulana Hassan Ali Suleiman

What exactly is the isnad for the story above about Imam Razi? It seems to be a forgery. One should beware of lieing, even if it is for what seems to be a worthy cause, and one should beware of spreading lies.

There is a time and a place for debating. Imam Abu Hanifa debated the heretics in the masjid in Kufa. Imam Ash'ari entered countless debates against the M'utazilites.

Wa al-Salam...

[haqq]

What exactly is the isnad for the story above about Imam Razi? It seems to be a forgery. One should beware of lieing, even if it is for what seems to be a worthy cause, and one should beware of spreading lies.

There is a time and a place for debating. Imam Abu Hanifa debated the heretics in the masjid in Kufa. Imam Ash'ari entered countless debates against the M'utazilites.

Wa al-Salam...


ONE SHOULD SHE BEWARE OF CALLING NOBLE SHOLARS OF DEEN LIARS!!!!!!!!!

[Omar HH]

I don't know if it's exactly a "lie"

But I think what the brother is saying is that Imam Fakhr ad-Din Razi was at such a status with Allah (SWT) that it's hard to believe that this happened to him.

And Allahu 'Alam.

I liked the story though.

[talib al-habib]

salam

this story about Imam Fakhr ar-Razi is quite a famous one. As with many stories about the auliya-allah, it is not traceable through isnad as such. This is, of course, quite different from it being a forgery or a lie. In the science of hadith methodology, one often find that a hadith may be used (with conditions) for purposes of extolling the benefits of an action, or expounding wisdom, despite the fact that it is only weakly authenticated to Rasulullah (S). Even in the works of mawdu`at (hadith forgeries) one finds comments such as, 'this hadith is a forgery/unauthenticated but its meaning is true,' such as Mulla Ali Qari's commentary on the forgery, 'I was a hidden treasure...' (see GFH's translation at www.livingislam.org).

Similarly with the stories of the auliya-allah, the underlying purpose is not to establish shari`a rulings through them, not even to delineate historical truth, but rather to explain a point of wisdom or moral through the prism of a tale, so as to render it more digestible to minds and hearts. The same applies, for example, to the morals a child may learn form Aesop's fables, or Rumi's teaching tales in the Mathnawi, or Buddhist haikus - the point is not the truth in the words, but the truth within the words.

This story of Imam Fakhr may or may not have actually occured. The sufis say, 'Allahu fauqa kulli mumkin' - Allah is capable of bringing anything imaginable into being - and this matter is by no means beyond the scope of the karamat of the auliya (I think it iwas specifically Najm ad-Din al-Kubra in this instance). But if one gets too entangled in the words themselves, one misses the wood for the trees. The point is that there is a time and place for debate, but that it is not logic that is the foundation of one's belief (because it is prone to error and refutation), but actual experiential knowledge that imbues one with a certainty that cannot be put into words nor refuted. May Allah bless all of us with this.

was salam, talib