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Colonel_Hardstone
04-02-2010, 04:23 PM
:salam:

I don't know anything in Islamic Shariah which permits Parents to leave their young girls at an institution which is more then Shariah distance away to be housed and boarded.

Where do they get this idea from?

a) Women cannot travel to Hajj without Mahram
b) Women cannot travel outside of city limits without Mahram

But a young girl can go from Leicester and live in a Darul-uloom in Dewsbury with other girls? Where does this idea come from?

If a girl is allowed to do that then she is also allowed to go and study at a university (in Niqab) and be housed in a Hostel as long as there are other girls around, she should be fine...The principle is the same

And we know what goes in these girls Darul-ulooms and Hostel :cry: You bend the Shariah, you pay the price.

If a girl can get educated locally and then come home thats a different story. There is ABSOLUTELY NO PRECEDENCE IN ISLAMIC HISTORY OF WOMEN TRAVELLING AND STAYING OVER WITHOUT MAHRHAM!

:jazak:

The Fake Shaykh
04-02-2010, 04:27 PM
:salam:

I don't know anything in Islamic Shariah which permits Parents to leave their young girls at an institution which is more then Shariah distance away to be housed and boarded.

Where do they get this idea from?

a) Women cannot travel to Hajj without Mahram
b) Women cannot travel outside of city limits without Mahram

But a young girl can go from Leicester and live in a Darul-uloom in Dewsbury with other girls? Where does this idea come from?

If a girl is allowed to do that then she is also allowed to go and study at a university (in Niqab) and be housed in a Hostel as long as there are other girls around, she should be fine...The principle is the same

And we know what goes in these girls Darul-ulooms and Hostel :cry: You bend the Shariah, you pay the price.

If a girl can get educated locally and then come home thats a different story. There is ABSOLUTELY NO PRECEDENCE IN ISLAMIC HISTORY OF WOMEN TRAVELLING AND STAYING OVER WITHOUT MAHRHAM!

:jazak:

:salam:
:thumbsup:
100% agreed on, has anyone asked a mufti for a fatwa on this?:rolleyes:

UmHasan
04-02-2010, 04:43 PM
:salam:
:thumbsup:
100% agreed on, has anyone asked a mufti for a fatwa on this?:rolleyes:
Obviously, they have. Many of the girls madrasahs are either run by muftis and knowledgable people or they have them on the advisory board.


:salam:

I don't know anything in Islamic Shariah which permits Parents to leave their young girls at an institution which is more then Shariah distance away to be housed and boarded.


Have you found something that prohibits it?



But a young girl can go from Leicester and live in a Darul-uloom in Dewsbury with other girls? Where does this idea come from?


For many it is a choice of sending their daughters to a non Muslim state school where they are exposed to the cultures, immodesty, whims and desires of their peers or sending them to a Madrasah. Not every parent can home-educate; not every family can provide a good Islamic environment at home; not every parent can counteract the negative influence of teenage girls.



If a girl is allowed to do that then she is also allowed to go and study at a university (in Niqab) and be housed in a Hostel as long as there are other girls around, she should be fine...The principle is the same


The difference between a Madrasah and a university is blatant. I cannot understand how you have compared the two. Free mixing of sexes, brainwashing, culture of drugs and booze, freedom of movement.... universities have it all.




And we know what goes in these girls Darul-ulooms and Hostel :cry: You bend the Shariah, you pay the price.


How do you know what goes on? You obviously have not been in one and have probably heard a few stories here and there and based your entire judgement on that. There is much good that goes on behind the closed doors. If some parents bring their children home in the holidays or after graduating and expose them to every thing they have learnt to stay away from in Madrasah, it is hardly the fault of the Madrasah.
Time may have changed, but my own experience of Madrasah life is soooo different from the impression you have of it.



If a girl can get educated locally and then come home thats a different story.
There are those who argue against part time aalim/aalimah course and those who say it is better 'to give a more balanced life experience'. Each to his/ her own opinion.

Colonel_Hardstone
04-02-2010, 05:02 PM
Obviously, they have. Many of the girls madrasahs are either run by muftis and knowledgable people or they have them on the advisory board.



Have you found something that prohibits it?



For many it is a choice of sending their daughters to a non Muslim state school where they are exposed to the cultures, immodesty, whims and desires of their peers or sending them to a Madrasah. Not every parent can home-educate; not every family can provide a good Islamic environment at home; not every parent can counteract the negative influence of teenage girls.



The difference between a Madrasah and a university is blatant. I cannot understand how you have compared the two. Free mixing of sexes, brainwashing, culture of drink and booze, freedom of movement.... universities have it all.



How do you know what goes on? You obviously have not been in one and have probably heard a few stories here and there and based your entire judgement on that. There is much good that goes on behind the closed doors. If some parents bring their children home in the holidays or after graduating and expose them to every thing they have learnt to stay away from in Madrasah, it is hardly the fault of the Madrasah.
Time may have changed, but my own experience of Madrasah life is soooo different from how the impression you have of it.


There are those who argue against part time aalim/aalimah course and those who say it is better 'to give a more balanced life experience'. Each to his/ her own opinion.

:ws: Appa,

You havn't answered the question anywhere:

Q1) Where is the Shariah permission for sending your daughter from Leicester to Dewsbury without Mahram?

Q2) Give us examples from Islamic history where girls used to go study over long distances and live there without Mahram?

Please don't try to be Barelwee by posing questions like, "Have you found something that prohibits it?" :-)

We know very well what goes on in Girls Darul-uloom & Hostels, lets just leave it because this is an Islamic forum and not "The Daily Sun"

P.S: I said "in principle" girls staying long distances for Madrasah is the same as university, "in principle", "in principle" "in principle"

ENIGMA
04-02-2010, 05:21 PM
O


The difference between a Madrasah and a university is blatant. I cannot understand how you have compared the two. Free mixing of sexes, brainwashing, culture of drink and booze, freedom of movement.... universities have it all.



So it that why the head Mufti of Bury darul uloom encourages both male and female graduates to go to university??

do you think by going to darul uloom some how they will be saved from the fitna of universities??


and colonel is talking about the 'principal' of going more than the shari guidelines without a mahram AND also staying there. 2 seperate issues. one is travelling for distance more than the shari guidelines without a mahram and point 2 is staying over without a mahram.

UmHasan
04-02-2010, 05:22 PM
Q1) Where is the Shariah permission for sending your daughter from Leicester to Dewsbury without Mahram?


I knew I shouldn't have responded ;) .Didn't really want to be drawn into this argument!

A mahram is for travelling and all the girls who come to madrasah are brought by a mehram. Are you suggesting it is sin for a girl to stay anywhere, away from home without a mahram?



Q2) Give us examples from Islamic history where girls used to go study over long distances and live there without Mahram?

Please don't try to be Barelwee by posing questions like, "Have you found something that prohibits it?" :-)


I stand by that. Unless you have some solid proof that it is prohibited it would be condsidered mubah. For something to be classified as haram 'prohibited' you have to provide shari' evidence to support it. YOU consider it to be prohibited, YOU need to bring forth your evidence.



We know very well what goes on in Girls Darul-uloom & Hostels, lets just leave it because this is an Islamic forum and not "The Daily Sun"


That is sensationalist and misleading. If you cannot support your claim, do not have reliable witnesses to this statement or do not want to divulge the information then you should not have made this statement. Unfortunaltey, shananigans occur in boys darul ulooms too. Actually they occur in every organisation.

ENIGMA
04-02-2010, 05:25 PM
There are those who argue against part time aalim/aalimah course and those who say it is better 'to give a more balanced life experience'. Each to his/ her own opinion.


personally, I would like locally run extensive COURSES for females. this helps the women in the sense that they are local,and also does not burden them with the title 'ALIMAH' which alot these girls find hard to take on. The problem is attaching the title Alimah,which puts undue pressure on the girls. lets face it, these alimahs become alimahs at the age of 18-20,and when they come back into their own localities,they're not like alims who become Imams. so these girls then either stay home all day,or then meet up with friends who may not be so religeous. thus this makes the alimahs be under peer pressure and then when they err,people start pointing.

ENIGMA
04-02-2010, 05:29 PM
A mahram is for travelling and all the girls who come to madrasah are brought by a mehram. Are you suggesting it is sin for a girl to stay anywhere, away from home without a mahram?

I stand by that. Unless you have some solid proof that it is prohibited it would be condsidered mubah. For something to be classified as haram 'prohibited' you have to provide shari' evidence to support it. YOU consider it to be prohibited, YOU need to bring forth your evidence.



seriously sister, you're saying a mahram is for travelling only??

ENIGMA
04-02-2010, 05:38 PM
A mahram is for travelling and all the girls who come to madrasah are brought by a mehram. Are you suggesting it is sin for a girl to stay anywhere, away from home without a mahram?


when the place they are staying is over the distance which shariah allows her to travel on her own.

I also know of alimahs who travel well over 100 miles from their home town to help out at their darul uloom when the darul uloom needs extra assistance. they travel the distance without a mahram.

UmHasan
04-02-2010, 06:01 PM
personally, I would like locally run extensive COURSES for females. this helps the women in the sense that they are local,and also does not burden them with the title 'ALIMAH' which alot these girls find hard to take on. The problem is attaching the title Alimah,which puts undue pressure on the girls. lets face it, these alimahs become alimahs at the age of 18-20,and when they come back into their own localities,they're not like alims who become Imams. so these girls then either stay home all day,or then meet up with friends who may not be so religeous. thus this makes the alimahs be under peer pressure and then when they err,people start pointing.

I do agree with alot of what you say. I personally see some of the younger graduates of girls madrasah and it hurts my heart to see them so disattached from deen. The thing is, a graduate from a girls boarding madrasah does not automatically become an 'aalimah'. It is society that gives her that label not the madrasah itself. I recall many conversations with the heads of these institutes and they do not refer to past students as aalimahs, they always say 'faarigaats' or 'graduates'.

And the fact of the matter is, a graduate of a girls madrasah is not an 'aalimah'. She has gained some knowledge and that does not put her in the same league as an aalim. Nor does she expect to be treated like one.

As you say, they ARE very different from aalims who become imams. The role of an aalimah is different. She does not aspire to be a ‘scholar’ and discuss the ikhtilaf in moonsighting, the issue of the Quran being a creation or created, or to give rulings on inheritance and hadd, etc.Her knowledge is sought to nurture within herself and her family a love and affiliation to deen and an unquestioning submission to the rulings of Islam. She uses her knowledge to understand and appreciate the beauty of Islam and use it to improve her own life, the life of her family, to give good advice to those who consult her, to teach ignorant women the fundamentals of fiqh, Aqeedah and Islamic morals and generally live a more pious lifestyle.

Many people have too high expectations of aalimahs and expect them to be on the same pedestal as the male ulamah. No wonder they are all disappointed and like many brothers on this forum are constantly critical of females who chose to spend their youth seeking ilm. ( and brother colonel, I am not referring to you!)


when the place they are staying is over the distance which shariah allows her to travel on her own.

I also know of alimahs who travel well over 100 miles from their home town to help out at their darul uloom when the darul uloom needs extra assistance. they travel the distance without a mahram.

If they do then that is on their heads. I do not consider it permissable and nor would I ever do so myself. I personally would not travel from Bradford to Dewsbury without my mehram. But if the mehram of a woman drops her off to, let's say, her sisters house 200 miles away and then returns a week later to pick her up, then this is permissible. Same principle applies.

UmHasan
04-02-2010, 06:22 PM
So it that why the head Mufti of Bury darul uloom encourages both male and female graduates to go to university??


Are you claiming that Mufti Shabbir Sb encourages female graduates to go to university? I would never believe that until I heard it from his own mouth. Please bring proof to support your claim.



do you think by going to darul uloom some how they will be saved from the fitna of universities??


Of course not! Are you serious?? Where did I ever claim that? I am completely against young, impressionable girls attending university. And not because they have to travel , but rather to save themselves from the fitnah of university culture. Whether they are aalimah or non aalimahs. Please reread my post and correct yourself.

The Fake Shaykh
04-02-2010, 06:28 PM
personally, I would like locally run extensive COURSES for females. this helps the women in the sense that they are local,and also does not burden them with the title 'ALIMAH' which alot these girls find hard to take on. The problem is attaching the title Alimah,which puts undue pressure on the girls. lets face it, these alimahs become alimahs at the age of 18-20,and when they come back into their own localities,they're not like alims who become Imams. so these girls then either stay home all day,or then meet up with friends who may not be so religeous. thus this makes the alimahs be under peer pressure and then when they err,people start pointing.

like what sister soupy said i dont want to be drawn into a long discussion (its thursday night,markaz night) but i agree with bro.enigma on his pioint and on colonels bhais point (don't need to say to much when brothers like these say it so well), also what sister soupy said :
(qoute)
"I personally see some of the younger graduates of girls madrasah and it hurts my heart to see them so disattached from deen. The thing is, a graduate from a girls boarding madrasah does not automatically become an 'aalimah'. It is society that gives her that label not the madrasah itself. I recall many conversations with the heads of these institutes and they do not refer to past students as aalimahs, they always say 'faarigaats' or 'graduates'.

And the fact of the matter is, a graduate of a girls madrasah is not an 'aalimah'. She has gained some knowledge and that does not put her in the same league as an aalim. Nor does she expect to be treated like one.

As you say, they ARE very different from aalims who become imams. The role of an aalimah is different. She does not aspire to be a ‘scholar’ and discuss the ikhtilaf in moonsighting, the issue of the Quran being a creation or created, or to give rulings on inheritance and hadd, etc; her knowledge is sought to nurture within herself and her family a love, affiliation to deen and an unquestioning submission to the rulings of Islam. So she can understand and appreciate the beauty of Islam and use it to improve her own life, the life of her family , to give good advice to those who consult her, to teach ignorant women the fundamentals of fiqh, Aqeedah and Islamic morals."
(end qoute)

as for the rest sister soupy no comment, but the word obviuosly in our ulamas vocabarly is not existent, when you see the confusion on many topics (moonsighting, salah times)the truth is obviuos but that dont stop the endless debates!!

ps: how do i use the multi quote?

UmHasan
04-02-2010, 07:10 PM
as for the rest sister soupy no comment, but the word obviuosly in our ulamas vocabarly is not existent, when you see the confusion on many topics (moonsighting, salah times)the truth is obviuos but that dont stop the endless debates!!

ps: how do i use the multi quote?

Did not quite understand that sentence, sorry, can you please rephrase it?

Multiquote: click on the small icon with the plus sign that sits beside the 'reply with quote' icon. It will change to a tick. Then click on all the postings you want to quote before selecting the 'reply to thread' tab.

ssjkakarot
04-02-2010, 08:18 PM
There are two issues here. One is to travel without a Mahram. The other is to stay without a Mahram.

It is prohibited to travel a distance of 3 days and 3 nights without a Mahram. The 3 days and 3 nights refer to the mode of transport during the time of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam]. Generally, a distance of 48 miles used to be covered by a camel in three days.

The other issue is living abroad without a Mahram. There is no specific requirement in Shari’ah to live abroad with a Mahram. However, the general rule is one should be safe and guarded against Fitna and evils. If you will be travelling with a Mahram and living abroad with only females and there is no Fitnah, then there is nothing un-Islamic in that.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai


Source (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=8d0f51219e5919a59f1d756f5f45040e).

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 09:04 AM
Are you claiming that Mufti Shabbir Sb encourages female graduates to go to university? I would never believe that until I heard it from his own mouth. Please bring proof to support your claim.


I have heard it myself from him when he stated that he has no opposition in girls educating themselves,and more so he says its a good thing. He stated this publically in my local masjid a few ramadhans ago. His reasoning was this: if a women is atleast educated,and for some reason,after marriage,the husband is not able to do so(WORK),she can then go out and support her family and not survive on state handouts. Bury Darul uloom(boys) are actively encouraged by mufti sahib and others to educate themselves and go to uni. Alot of the alims and alimahs who are studying at UCLAN have affiliations with Bury. He may not actively say YOU MUST GO but he is favourable to idea and does not discourage them. alot of the girls who study at these part time alimah courses(affiliated with bury) go to uni in the day time.

and if you dont believe me,ask MUMINAH on this forum who has stated that she phoned mufti sahib to get his view on wether she should go to uni or not. She has stated on this forum that his advice was one of encouragement.

personally I dont understand one thing. Do these niqabis not realise that once they graduate and want to work,most probably,they will have to compromise on the niqab.

Im 100% in favour of our girls/women getting secular education. but with uni,i believe they are other viable alternatives for alot of the courses they attend. the open uni is fantastic(i have studied with them) and provides just as good a quality of education as going to a 'normal' uni. but the good thing with the open uni is that it is home based and you only have to go to a 'class' on a few occasions. their range of courses are growing every year and actually employers think very highly of a degree attained with the open uni.

my own wife has educated herself after marriage with 100% backing from me. I have no issue with women and education and I encourage it. We need more practising Muslim women in the field of marriage guidance,women who can treat depression etc. I am 100% for every local masjid to have facilities for women to pray,meet,socialise,learn knowledge etc.

I do feel that giving these young girls the title of alimahs is a unfair burden on them as they are kids themselves. And that is why I am more in favour of local masjids arranging comprehensive and detailed courses for the females without the baggage of the alimah title.

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 09:17 AM
Here are my queries...


:ws: Appa,

You havn't answered the question anywhere:

Q1) Where is the Shariah permission for sending your daughter from Leicester to Dewsbury without Mahram?

Q2) Give us examples from Islamic history where girls used to go study over long distances and live there without Mahram?

Please don't try to be Barelwee by posing questions like, "Have you found something that prohibits it?" :-)

We know very well what goes on in Girls Darul-uloom & Hostels, lets just leave it because this is an Islamic forum and not "The Daily Sun"

P.S: I said "in principle" girls staying long distances for Madrasah is the same as university, "in principle", "in principle" "in principle"

Here is our dear Aapa' replies...


I knew I shouldn't have responded ;) .Didn't really want to be drawn into this argument!

A mahram is for travelling and all the girls who come to madrasah are brought by a mehram. Are you suggesting it is sin for a girl to stay anywhere, away from home without a mahram?

I stand by that. Unless you have some solid proof that it is prohibited it would be condsidered mubah. For something to be classified as haram 'prohibited' you have to provide shari' evidence to support it. YOU consider it to be prohibited, YOU need to bring forth your evidence.



That is sensationalist and misleading. If you cannot support your claim, do not have reliable witnesses to this statement or do not want to divulge the information then you should not have made this statement. Unfortunaltey, shananigans occur in boys darul ulooms too. Actually they occur in every organisation.

Anyone who knows how to read would know that the reply is actually a non-reply.


Jazakumullah khayr for your patronising reference. :-) I assume it was because you did not understand my intent and not because you intended to belittle it. Oh how I hate arguing when there is no hope of a mutual understanding! And how I hate arguing with brothers!



I assumed (and oh, how I hate assuming!) that by this remark you were suggesting that girls travel to Madrasah without a mehram. I pointed out that actually, they travel with a mehram. The rules state that students should travel with a mehram and the names of two mehrams, besides her father who she will travel with are provided on the form at the outset.


By this statement I assumed that you were questioning the permissibility of staying over anywhere (a distance over 48 miles) without a mehram. To which I replied that I considered it permissible and brother ssjkakarot has provided a link to a fatwa (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=8d0f51219e5919a59f1d756f5f45040e) that supports this.

And what part of that was a non-reply?

And with regards to brother Enigma’s statement about Mufti Sb encouraging females to attend university, I retract my claim that I do not believe he said this. If sister Muminah has indeed received this guidance from him then I have no reason to doubt her. I will suffice to say that in all humbleness, I respectfully disagree with this stance.

As you have suggested there are alternatives to going to uni. I have also studied with the Open University and I am currently involved in a project that enables women to study university courses at alternative venues where there is no fear of freemixing etc. Until these avenues have been exhausted, university is not an option for me.

:ws: Appa,

What else can I do when replies have no relevance to the issue?

Still no Shariah evidence of women staying in a foreign (as opposed to local) land for extended periods without Mahram provided.

Still no historical evidence from Islamic history where such Darul-ulooms ever existed (for girls)

Maulana Abu Hajira suggested that women are not allowed to emerge outside of homes without necessity, since when did girls Darul-uloom become har'i Duroorah?

All you have to do is to give us examples from history where Parents left their daughters in cities of knowledge (Bara, Kufa, Egypt etc.) to acquire knowledge and we will be done.

P.S: Before giving example of India/Pakistan please understand what actually happens in Pakistan (at least) a lot of these girls are in a Shelter/Orphanage and others are local I speak from personal knowledge of three separate girls Darul-ulooms. Its a different setup. I don't know anyone who sends their daughters from Peshawar to Karachi to study and leaves them there for years on end!

:jazak:

UmHasan
05-02-2010, 10:03 AM
Jazakumullah khayr for your patronising reference. :-) I assume it was because you did not understand my intent and not because you intended to belittle it. Oh how I hate arguing when there is no hope of a mutual understanding! And how I hate arguing with brothers!



a) Women cannot travel to Hajj without Mahram


I assumed (and oh, how I hate assuming!) that by this remark you were suggesting that girls travel to Madrasah without a mehram. I pointed out that actually, they travel with a mehram. The rules state that students should travel with a mehram and the names of two mehrams, besides her father who she will travel with are provided on the form at the outset.



b) Women cannot travel outside of city limits without Mahram

By this statement I assumed that you were questioning the permissibility of staying over anywhere (a distance over 48 miles) without a mehram. To which I replied that I considered it permissible and brother ssjkakarot has provided a link to a fatwa (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=8d0f51219e5919a59f1d756f5f45040e) that supports this.

And what part of that was a non-reply?

And with regards to brother Enigma’s statement about Mufti Sb encouraging females to attend university, I retract my claim that I do not believe he said this. If sister Muminah has indeed received this guidance from him then I have no reason to doubt her. I will suffice to say that in all humbleness, I respectfully disagree with this stance.

As you have suggested there are alternatives to going to uni. I have also studied with the Open University and I am currently involved in a project that enables women to study university courses at alternative venues where there is no fear of freemixing etc. Until these avenues have been exhausted, university is not an option for me.

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 10:20 AM
Jazakumullah khayr for your patronising reference. :-) I assume it was because you did not understand my intent and not because you intended to belittle it. Oh how I hate arguing when there is no hope of a mutual understanding! And how I hate arguing with brothers!



I assumed (and oh, how I hate assuming!) that by this remark you were suggesting that girls travel to Madrasah without a mehram. I pointed out that actually, they travel with a mehram. The rules state that students should travel with a mehram and the names of two mehrams, besides her father who she will travel with are provided on the form at the outset.


By this statement I assumed that you were questioning the permissibility of staying over anywhere (a distance over 48 miles) without a mehram. To which I replied that I considered it permissible and brother ssjkakarot has provided a link to a fatwa (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=8d0f51219e5919a59f1d756f5f45040e) that supports this.

And what part of that was a non-reply?

And with regards to brother Enigma’s statement about Mufti Sb encouraging females to attend university, I retract my claim that I do not believe he said this. If sister Muminah has indeed received this guidance from him then I have no reason to doubt her. I will suffice to say that in all humbleness, I respectfully disagree with this stance.

As you have suggested there are alternatives to going to uni. I have also studied with the Open University and I am currently involved in a project that enables women to study university courses at alternative venues where there is no fear of freemixing etc. Until these avenues have been exhausted, university is not an option for me.

Replied in the original post...

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 10:28 AM
As you have suggested there are alternatives to going to uni. I have also studied with the Open University and I am currently involved in a project that enables women to study university courses at alternative venues where there is no fear of freemixing etc. Until these avenues have been exhausted, university is not an option for me.

Of course some courses can only be studied at 'normal' uni's. I dont know why practising sisters who want to study subjects which the open uni provides don't look at that option. Soupy,is this a local scheme you are a part of? any links for more info.

If you can give me more info,I shall pass it over to a few scholars who might be interested in doing something where I live for the women. I think the open uni is great and both the guys and girls should really look at that as a perfectly viable option for the traditional courses such as Law,accounting etc. They will be able to attain a perfectly good degree without the intermingling.

ssjkakarot
05-02-2010, 10:59 AM
Still no Shariah evidence of women staying in a foreign (as opposed to local) land for extended periods without Mahram provided.

Asalamu alaykum bro colonel,

I don't get it. Isn't this issue dealt with in the fatwa I posted? If there was such a prohibition, wouldn't the mufti know about it and would have taken it into account in his fatwa?

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 11:48 AM
Asalamu alaykum bro colonel,

I don't get it. Isn't this issue dealt with in the fatwa I posted? If there was such a prohibition, wouldn't the mufti know about it and would have taken it into account in his fatwa?

:ws:

If this issue is so clear cut and simple then surely there shouldn't be any problems with Aapa giving example after example from Islamic history where women travelled with their Maharim and were left for extended period to acquire knowledge in foreign lands.

We should have bucket loads of women Scholar traversing and zig-zagging Islamic lands, don't you think?

Anyone who reads the Fatwa will realise that it discussing university education which Aapa is vehementally against.

Read my post again, If girls are allowed to live in foreign land in girls dormitories then why are they not allowed to study in all-girls universities and stay there? And that is the principle she cannot seem to comprehend, in addition to giving us examples of where this occured in Islamic history and how wide-spread was this?

Give us some famous Islamic women travellers in the path of knowledge!

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 01:09 PM
Asalamu alaykum bro colonel,

I don't get it. Isn't this issue dealt with in the fatwa I posted? If there was such a prohibition, wouldn't the mufti know about it and would have taken it into account in his fatwa?

basically,from what I understand:

sister soupy is saying that the women only needs mahram whilst travelling and does not need one when she has reached the destination. so she states the girls who go to the darul uloom fulfill that obligation as they are accompanied by a mahram whilst tarvelling.

bro colonel is saying that not only do they need a mahram whilst travelling but would also need their mahram with them where they are staying. colonel sahib is asking where is the proof for mufti sahibs fatwa.

mufti Ebrahims fatwa sides with sister soupys opinion.

verdana
05-02-2010, 01:14 PM
:ws:

If this issue is so clear cut and simple then surely there shouldn't be any problems with Aapa giving example after example from Islamic history where women travelled with their Maharim and were left for extended period to acquire knowledge in foreign lands.

We should have bucket loads of women Scholar traversing and zig-zagging Islamic lands, don't you think?

Anyone who reads the Fatwa will realize that it discussing university education which Aapa is vehementally against.

Read my post again, If girls are allowed to live in foreign land in girls dormitories then why are they not allowed to study in all-girls universities and stay there? And that is the principle she cannot seem to comprehend, in addition to giving us examples of where this occurred in Islamic history and how wide-spread was this?

Give us some famous Islamic women travelers in the path of knowledge!

:salam:

In the history of Islam or Muslims, we don't see so complex and corrupt era like ours. In old good times we had our local instituions in every corner. There was no need for girls to stay apart from their parents in a far away distance from home with some mahrams (in a Muslim girls only environment of course). There was no need because either father, mother or both were huffaz and they could easily provide basic Islamic knowledge to their children. However, today not only we are scattered around world, especially in Western lands, but also we don't have local Islamic institutions everywhere. On top of that, in many cases, there is not even single family member who can properly recite Qur'an with tajweed.

So in the lands where locally there is,
-no hafiz
-no tajweed
-no sunni 'Alim
-no sound Islamic knowledge
-no option to migrate to Muslims lands..

then
how do you expect Muslim girls to survive?
how do you expect Muslim girls to learn sound Islamic knowledge?
how do you expect Muslim girls to protect themselves from the fitna/disbelief/fisk that's attacking them from all directions?

Here where I live, there are "Muslim" families who actually have no rituals at all, no knowledge and they live the life on go as it comes. Also, although parents are against it but they can't stop their daughters from "dating" kuffar males.

Certainly this is a calamity that we don't see in our Islamic history.

UmHasan
05-02-2010, 02:20 PM
..............................where women travelled with their Maharim and were left for extended period to acquire knowledge in foreign lands.

You are twisting the reality to mould your argument. It does not necessarily involve travelling to foreign lands. I personally studied in a Madrasah 10 mins from my home.



We should have bucket loads of women Scholar traversing and zig-zagging Islamic lands, don't you think?

How did you equate women studying in a Madrasah to traversing and zig-zagging Islamic lands. You have again used your sentiments to portray a picture that is not a true reflection of reality. They go to madrasah- the doors are closed. They have plenty of opportunity to roam the inner gardens for fresh air and do not leave madrasah except when a mehram comes to pick them up at holiday time.



Anyone who reads the Fatwa will realise that it discussing university education which Aapa is vehementally against.


This is completely wrong . You are totally and utterly mistaken that I am against university education. From where did you glean this information? It is an assertion that is wide off the mark. There is a difference between ‘university education’ and ‘university culture’. The latter is what I advise to abstain from.

For the record I will state: I am 100% in favour of women educating themselves and do not limit this education to the rudimentary basics. It is an issue that I feel strong enough to fight for. Women have been educated from the time of the Prophet :saw: and in many instances exceeded their male counterparts in attaining and spreading knowledge. This has not been limited to Islamic knowledge. Islamic history unveils females who excelled in all aspects of knowledge. A glimpse into the past of Muslim women will reveal that there have been women grammarians, experts in medicine and alchemy; women who made astrolabes and were leading calligraphist.

Ummul Mu’mimeen Aa’ishah :ra: was well versed in medicine and poetry as well as Islamic law. Her sister Sayyidah Asma bint Abi Bakr knew well the science of dream interpretation in addition to other things.

But I stand by statement that university culture in a mixed environment is something to avoid, and how can one avoid it other than distancing themselves from it? Sisters should seek alternatives and pursue them as this is safer for the conservation of their imaan and their chastity.
If the alternative is to attend a girls only university then that is ideal. If the alternative is to attend a local women only educational provision then that is also superb. Is there is no alternative then the open university is another option. There will be more options. Each will seek her own solution. If my daughter grows up wanting to study medicine, I will be more than eager to support her to pursue her dream through halal means. If I could find a university for women I will send her there. But I cannot imagine myself supporting her decision to attend a mixed university. There is a difference.



Read my post again, If girls are allowed to live in foreign land in girls dormitories then why are they not allowed to study in all-girls universities and stay there? And that is the principle she cannot seem to comprehend, in addition to giving us examples of where this occured in Islamic history and how wide-spread was this

So you see brother Colonel, it is YOU who has failed to comprehend my view. Why should I bother providing you with evidence against women studying in all-girls universities when I have never opposed them? They are the ideal solution and we need more of them here, in the UK and other western countries.



[U]All you have to do is to give us examples from history where Parents left their daughters in cities of knowledge (Bara, Kufa, Egypt etc.) to acquire knowledge and we will be done.

As for your request to quote examples from history; I have chosen to refrain from this. Quoting practices of sahabah as evidence in arguments is the job of a scholar and I refuse to quote random examples from my limited knowledge to use as proof. If you really want evidence ask a scholar. I will suffice to say that look through the history books. Did the women acquire hadeeth and ijazats by asking scholars to come to them? Or was all the knowledge just available in their local neighbourhood?

Or do you suppose they occasionally travelled with a mehram to acquire knowledge?

The latter,I believe

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Or do you suppose they occasionally travelled with a mehram to acquire knowledge?

The latter,I believe

I dont want to get in the middle of a tiff between you and colonel,BUT colonels point is where in islamic history have women travelled with a mahram to another place(outside the shari guideline distance) and then the mahram has come back to his home and leaving his wife/daughter in the place they have travelled to without a mahram.

that is what colonel is asking I believe.

anyway,any info on my post,please?

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 02:38 PM
But I stand by statement that university culture in a mixed environment is something to avoid, and how can one avoid it other than distancing themselves from it? Sisters should seek alternatives and pursue them as this is safer for the conservation of their imaan and their chastity.
If the alternative is to attend a girls only university then that is ideal. If the alternative is to attend a local women only educational provision then that is also superb. Is there is no alternative then the open university is another option. There will be more options. Each will seek her own solution. If my daughter grows up wanting to study medicine, I will be more than eager to support her to pursue her dream through halal means. If I could find a university for women I will send her there. But I cannot imagine myself supporting her decision to attend a mixed university. There is a difference.



pretty much mine and my wifes view on the education of our children, :alhamd:

UmHasan
05-02-2010, 03:07 PM
Of course some courses can only be studied at 'normal' uni's. I dont know why practising sisters who want to study subjects which the open uni provides don't look at that option. Soupy,is this a local scheme you are a part of? any links for more info.

If you can give me more info,I shall pass it over to a few scholars who might be interested in doing something where I live for the women. I think the open uni is great and both the guys and girls should really look at that as a perfectly viable option for the traditional courses such as Law,accounting etc. They will be able to attain a perfectly good degree without the intermingling.

The project (http://omnbradford.org/) is an initiative to address educational under achievement amongst south asian communities and women in particular. Part of the project involves bringing the university courses to the women to get over the reservation Asian women have of attending university. At the moment, this year we have started off with two courses (NVQ in Arabic and PTLLS which is a preliminary teaching course). As it is a three year project, the option will increase once we are comfortable with the working relationship.

As part of the project we are creating links with the local college and university to provide the courses at madrasahs.

There needs to be more initiatives like this. It s not enough to tell our young women to seek knowledge but university is fitnah. You have to offer them alternative solutions and other options to gain knowledge. Not everyone is content with being a housewife, mother and well behaved daughter. Women also need mental stimulation and if we want to keep them modest and safe the Muslim community needs to be proactive in making the provision available.

Lastly, I would just like to say, this is not an additional task to be lumbered unto the shoulders of the ulamah. They have enough responsibilities in spreading Islamic knowledge. This is a job for the masses of practicing awaam to take on board under the guidance of the ulamah. You do not need an understanding of the Islamic sciences to set up provision for secular education in the community. You need the experience of brothers working in the community sector and educational fields, the time, commitment and passion of the educated Muslim public will make this possible.

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 03:12 PM
You are twisting the reality to mould your argument. It does not necessarily involve travelling to foreign lands. I personally studied in a Madrasah 10 mins from my home.



How did you equate women studying in a Madrasah to traversing and zig-zagging Islamic lands. You have again used your sentiments to portray a picture that is not a true reflection of reality. They go to madrasah- the doors are closed. They have plenty of opportunity to roam the inner gardens for fresh air and do not leave madrasah except when a mehram comes to pick them up at holiday time.



This is completely wrong . You are totally and utterly mistaken that I am against university education. From where did you glean this information? It is an assertion that is wide off the mark. There is a difference between ‘university education’ and ‘university culture’. The latter is what I advise to abstain from.

For the record I will state: I am 100% in favour of women educating themselves and do not limit this education to the rudimentary basics. It is an issue that I feel strong enough to fight for. Women have been educated from the time of the Prophet :saw: and in many instances exceeded their male counterparts in attaining and spreading knowledge. This has not been limited to Islamic knowledge. Islamic history unveils females who excelled in all aspects of knowledge. A glimpse into the past of Muslim women will reveal that there have been women grammarians, experts in medicine and alchemy; women who made astrolabes and were leading calligraphist.

Ummul Mu’mimeen Aa’ishah :ra: was well versed in medicine and poetry as well as Islamic law. Her sister Sayyidah Asma bint Abi Bakr knew well the science of dream interpretation in addition to other things.

But I stand by statement that university culture in a mixed environment is something to avoid, and how can one avoid it other than distancing themselves from it? Sisters should seek alternatives and pursue them as this is safer for the conservation of their imaan and their chastity.
If the alternative is to attend a girls only university then that is ideal. If the alternative is to attend a local women only educational provision then that is also superb. Is there is no alternative then the open university is another option. There will be more options. Each will seek her own solution. If my daughter grows up wanting to study medicine, I will be more than eager to support her to pursue her dream through halal means. If I could find a university for women I will send her there. But I cannot imagine myself supporting her decision to attend a mixed university. There is a difference.



So you see brother Colonel, it is YOU who has failed to comprehend my view. Why should I bother providing you with evidence against women studying in all-girls universities when I have never opposed them? They are the ideal solution and we need more of them here, in the UK and other western countries.



As for your request to quote examples from history; I have chosen to refrain from this. Quoting practices of sahabah as evidence in arguments is the job of a scholar and I refuse to quote random examples from my limited knowledge to use as proof. If you really want evidence ask a scholar. I will suffice to say that look through the history books. Did the women acquire hadeeth and ijazats by asking scholars to come to them? Or was all the knowledge just available in their local neighbourhood?

Or do you suppose they occasionally travelled with a mehram to acquire knowledge?

The latter,I believe

:salam: Respected Appa,

If you read carefully then perhaps you would avoid your blood pressure going up and you would actually write something which is pertinent:

1) I have not said anything about being educated locally.

Here is the quote in full again, I am Sorry for marking it in RED because it is rude but you don't seem to be getting the point...


:ws: Appa,

You havn't answered the question anywhere:

Q1) Where is the Shariah permission for sending your daughter from Leicester to Dewsbury without Mahram?

Q2) Give us examples from Islamic history where girls used to go study over long distances and live there without Mahram?

Please don't try to be Barelwee by posing questions like, "Have you found something that prohibits it?" :-)

We know very well what goes on in Girls Darul-uloom & Hostels, lets just leave it because this is an Islamic forum and not "The Daily Sun"

P.S: I said "in principle" girls staying long distances for Madrasah is the same as university, "in principle", "in principle" "in principle"

Now lets stick to the subject to

1) A family living in Leicester (for example)
2) Leaving their daughter in Dewsbury (for example) at a Girls Madarsa

Where in Islamic history is this precedence shown of girls being dropped off and getting educated in this manner in a foreign land (i.e. not in foreign in terms of English like France to England but foreign in Shariah i.e. Non-Musaafir land)?

It isn't about girl education but girls staying at boarding houses and hostels, where and when did this happen in Islam? Please give examples from history.


:salam:

In the history of Islam or Muslims, we don't see so complex and corrupt era like ours. In old good times we had our local instituions in every corner. There was no need for girls to stay apart from their parents in a far away distance from home with some mahrams (in a Muslim girls only environment of course). There was no need because either father, mother or both were huffaz and they could easily provide basic Islamic knowledge to their children. However, today not only we are scattered around world, especially in Western lands, but also we don't have local Islamic institutions everywhere. On top of that, in many cases, there is not even single family member who can properly recite Qur'an with tajweed.

So in the lands where locally there is,
-no hafiz
-no tajweed
-no sunni 'Alim
-no sound Islamic knowledge
-no option to migrate to Muslims lands..

then
how do you expect Muslim girls to survive?
how do you expect Muslim girls to learn sound Islamic knowledge?
how do you expect Muslim girls to protect themselves from the fitna/disbelief/fisk that's attacking them from all directions?

Here where I live, there are "Muslim" families who actually have no rituals at all, no knowledge and they live the life on go as it comes. Also, although parents are against it but they can't stop their daughters from "dating" kuffar males.

Certainly this is a calamity that we don't see in our Islamic history.

Brother Verdana,

There are plenty of oppurtunites in most cities in UK to learn Tajweed etc. Please look at the specific cities which I am mentioning and if you don't know the local scene then it is best that you stay out of it.

The argument is about a girl staying at a Darul-uloom and acquiring knowledge.

Your argument is futile BECAUSE although basic facilities existed throughout Islamic lands but centers of excellence existed (for men) and I know no examples where they existed for women and women came and stayed in boarding houses etc.

If the need is to teach basics then a girl should study basics and return to her Parents house (or Mahram) but in a Darul-uloom you are taught all sorts of things (above and beyond the basics).

Let me try rephrase for both of you: Girls travelling far distances, staying in boarding houses and getting knowledge (ABOVE AND BEYOND basics) where is the precedence for that in Islamic history?

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 03:25 PM
The project (http://omnbradford.org/) is an initiative to make address educational under achievement amongst south asian communities and women in particular. Part of the project involves bringing the university courses to the women to get over the reservation Asian women have of attending university. At the moment, this year we have started off with two courses (NVQ in Arabic and PTLLS which is a preliminary teaching course). As it is a three year project, the option will increase once we are comfortable with the working relationship.

As part of the project we are creating links with the local college and university to provide the courses at madrasahs.

There needs to be more initiatives like this. It s not enough to tell our young women to seek knowledge but university is fitnah. You have to offer them alternative solutions and other options to gain knowledge. Not everyone is content with being a housewife, mother and well behaved daughter. Women also need mental stimulation and if we want to keep them modest and safe the Muslim community needs to be proactive in making the provision available.

Lastly, I would just like to say, this is not an additional task to be lumbered unto the shoulders of the ulamah. They have enough responsibilities in spreading Islamic knowledge. This is a job for the masses of practicing awaam to take on board under the guidance of the ulamah. You do not need an understanding of the Islamic sciences to set up provision for secular education in the community. You need the experience of brothers working in the community sector and educational fields, the time, commitment and passion of the educated Muslim public will make this possible.

:jazak: for the link. I'll look into it when I get home :insha:

fully agree with your last 2 paragraphs.

this project,is it only local? any chance of other areas getting in touch and seeing how it works?

The Fake Shaykh
05-02-2010, 03:31 PM
:salam: Respected Appa,
1) I have not said anything about being educated locally.

Now lets stick to the subject to

1) A family living in Leicester (for example)
2) Leaving their daughter in Dewsbury (for example) at a Girls Madarsa

Where in Islamic history is this precedence shown of girls being dropped off and getting educated in this manner in a foreign land (i.e. not in foreign in terms of English like France to England but foreign in Shariah i.e. Non-Musaafir land)?

It isn't about girl education but girls staying at boarding houses and hostels, where and when did this happen in Islam? Please give examples from history.



Brother Verdana,

There are plenty of oppurtunites in most cities in UK to learn Tajweed etc. Please look at the specific cities which I am mentioning and if you don't know the local scene then it is best that you stay out of it.

The argument is about a girl staying at a Darul-uloom and acquiring knowledge.

Your argument is futile BECAUSE although basic facilities existed throughout Islamic lands but centers of excellence existed (for men) and I know no examples where they existed for women and women came and stayed in boarding houses etc.

If the need is to teach basics then a girl should study basics and return to her Parents house (or Mahram) but in a Darul-uloom you are taught all sorts of things (above and beyond the basics).

Let me try rephrase for both of you: Girls travelling far distances, staying in boarding houses and getting knowledge (ABOVE AND BEYOND basics) where is the precedence for that in Islamic history?

Al-Bukhaari (7310) and Muslim (2634) narrated from Abu Sa’eed that a woman came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, the men have taken all your time; give us a day when we can come to you and you can teach us what Allaah has taught you.” He said, “Gather together on such and such a day in such and such a place (according to a report narrated by Ahmad (7310), your appointment is in the house of So and so).” So they gathered and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to them and taught them what Allaah had taught him. Then he said, “There is no woman among you whose three children die (before her) but they will be a shield for her from the Fire.” A woman asked, “O Messenger of Allaah, what about two?” and she repeated it twice. He said, “And two, and two, and two.”

Abu Zakariya Yahya
05-02-2010, 03:39 PM
Let me try rephrase for both of you: Girls travelling far distances, staying in boarding houses and getting knowledge (ABOVE AND BEYOND basics) where is the precedence for that in Islamic history?

:salam:

Assuming that the girl is brought there by her mahram, then the burden is on you to prove that the situation above is not permissible not the other way around.

UmHasan
05-02-2010, 04:07 PM
You need not worry about my blood pressure. I am, all praise be to Allah, calm. You made incorrect assumptions about me and my views that I sought to correct. That is all.

I can see that we are going round and round in circles here and therefore I will make this my last contribution to this thread- unless something else is falsely attributed to me.

I do not have any past evidence to of girls studying in a Darul Uloom to give to you, but just because this is not at my fingertips, or there is no precedence of something in history, it does not automatically become a wrong deed. There is also no precedence for boys Darul Ulooms, khanqahs etc; they are considered good and beneficial innovations. The same principle applies.

There is nothing ‘Barelwi’ about it, as you have alleged. If you are comparing it to the celebration of meelad then there is a big difference. One is carried out under the false assumption that it is an essential part of deen and necessary, the other is not. Sending your daughter to darul uloom is not considered an essential part of deen, rather it is done to acquaint her with an Islamic lifestyle and to avoid sending her to a mixed state school.

As I said if you want proof that it is halal or haram: go to a scholar. Maybe someday, when I have the time or the inclination I will seek out the Islamic ruling of girls attending darul uloom and post it. At the moment, I can see that devoting my time and effort to convince you would be pointless and of no benefit. This thread has already taken up too much of my valuable time.

My apologies if I have said anything untoward or offensive. I really did not mean to argue for the sake of arguing.


:jazak: for the link. I'll look into it when I get home :insha:

fully agree with your last 2 paragraphs.

this project,is it only local? any chance of other areas getting in touch and seeing how it works?

The project is a pilot project limited to four madrasahs only for the time being. But if it something you think you could utilise to an advantage in your area then you may contact one of the moulanas at our madrasah. Alternatively if a female member of your family contacts me I will explain all the details. Will not bore others here :-)

verdana
05-02-2010, 04:31 PM
:salam:

For a matter to be Halal/permissible, why should there be an example in the history? What if there was one but was burned down by the soldiers of Jingiz Khan? Example from Bukhari is a good one.

Brother Colonel_Hardstone, you should give up the matter to Appa Soupy as she is the winner in this issue. :D

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 04:33 PM
:salam:

I am not too smart and my writing skill are not excellent.

But Alhumdolillah I am glad that many hours later, we are on the same page. Please do research this issue and post/share whatever you could.

I would love to know where Girls Darul-ulooms (or centers of excellence is a better word) existed in the Islamic world where women came from their local lands, resided (without Mahram) and gained knowledge on a long term basis. We know that plenty of such places existed for men.

Because this will have a collosal impact on our understanding of Duroora (necessity) i.e. for what reason can the women emerge from their houses. And we along with Maulana Abu Hajira, Sr Mumina, Sr Sudoko and others were trying to figure out Duroora and what defines and shapes it.

Studying Mantiq isn't Duroora by anyone's understanding...

Dear Br Abu Zakariya Yahya! If you can help with the query it will be of great help. Please note that I am neither a Mufti nor a scholar so the word Halal/Haram has not been used throughout my entire conversation.

I was stating that Ulama decide on Duroora a the needs of the day and time changes and this is one example of Duroora has been extended to attending Darul-uloom in far away lands and without Mahram .

Here is a Darul-uloom Bury article on Hijab and Purdah (http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/Hijbdu.html)

Point 11 is where all this long conversation ties into...

:jazak:

She is our Aapa and her win is our win but it doesn't help me understand the issue due to my thick head :-)


:salam:

For a matter to be Halal/permissible, why should there be an example in the history? What if there was one but was burned down by the soldiers of Jingiz Khan? Example from Bukhari is a good one.

Brother Colonel_Hardstone, you should give up the matter to Appa Soupy as she is the winner in this issue. :D

The Fake Shaykh
05-02-2010, 04:38 PM
:salam:
:thumbsup:
has anyone asked a mufti for a fatwa on this?:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Soupy;452128]Obviously, they have. Many of the girls madrasahs are either run by muftis and knowledgable people or they have them on the advisory board.


[QUOTE=Soupy;452438]
As I said if you want proof that it is halal or haram: go to a scholar. Maybe someday, when I have the time or the inclination I will seek out the Islamic ruling of girls attending darul uloom and post it.


sister soupy that's was my point, can someone (colonel bhai) write to a competant mufti who will give you a straight answer (no lefts or rights) on this issue.

verdana
05-02-2010, 04:41 PM
How about simplifying the matter, shall we?

Do you agree that if there is no local solution then girls can stay abroad in Darul Ulums (in girls-women-only and safe environment) to learn tajweed and/or Hifz of Qur'an, then return back?

happinessx100
05-02-2010, 04:43 PM
Bro Colonel,
I would politely suggest that in future you converse a bit more politely with sis soupy. Coz although she does not say ( I think out of humblenes) she is a scholar. Wel, at least that is what YOU have told me in another thread. and a muslim sister deserves some respect from other muslim brother first and foremost. So it would be nice if you were a bit more polite and respectful (as that would teach us younger 'uns a lesson or two on how to converse with learned people.
please do not be offended. I am too young to give you advice. But just thougt I would note it.:$ :$ :$

ssjkakarot
05-02-2010, 04:43 PM
Asalamu alaykum,

Colonel, I see your point now.

- Women shouldn't leave the house without there being a necessity.
- Women leaving to learn at distant darul ulooms does not constitute a necessity.

Interesting thoughts. I would like to see an 'explanation' for this from ulema InshaAllah.

The Fake Shaykh
05-02-2010, 04:51 PM
here is a article by mufti muhammed ibn adam al kawtari, there are many point raised in this discussion that can be understood and clarified by reading it

Can Women Travel Without A Mahram?
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1993&CATE=143

although the article is not specifacaly on the discussion but many things can be understood from reading the answer by mufti saab

Colonel_Hardstone
05-02-2010, 04:59 PM
Obviously, they have. Many of the girls madrasahs are either run by muftis and knowledgable people or they have them on the advisory board.




As I said if you want proof that it is halal or haram: go to a scholar. Maybe someday, when I have the time or the inclination I will seek out the Islamic ruling of girls attending darul uloom and post it.


sister soupy that's was my point, can someone (colonel bhai) write to a competant mufti who will give you a straight answer (no lefts or rights) on this issue.

:jazak:


How about simplifying the matter, shall we?

Do you agree that if there is no local solution then girls can stay abroad in Darul Ulums (in girls-women-only and safe environment) to learn tajweed and/or Hifz of Qur'an, then return back?

:ws:

This is a well known principle in Islamic Shariah, rules of Hijab are relaxed when there is Duroora and tightened backup when the Duroora is fulfilled. To be honest I don't know many cities in UK where a Sister is unable to learn Tajweed etc.

Moreever this can be easily done using technology and no need to leave the comfort of your house, these days. Show me WHY ITS IMPOSSIBLE for a Sister in the West to learn her basics via the net?

I mean Darul-uloom Deoband and Shariahprogram (Tornoto) are offering full Alimh courses online, so why can't basics be taught online?

Allah (SWT) knows best.


Bro Colonel,
I would politely suggest that in future you converse a bit more politely with sis soupy. Coz although she does not say ( I think out of humblenes) she is a scholar. Wel, at least that is what YOU have told me in another thread. and a muslim sister deserves some respect from other muslim brother first and foremost. So it would be nice if you were a bit more polite and respectful (as that would teach us younger 'uns a lesson or two on how to converse with learned people.
please do not be offended. I am too young to give you advice. But just thougt I would note it.:$ :$ :$
:ws: My Sister,

Good advise and I apologise to Aapa unreservedly and ask for her forgiveness.

But it is very important for you to understand the point I am making here.


Asalamu alaykum,

Colonel, I see your point now.

- Women shouldn't leave the house without there being a necessity.
- Women leaving to learn at distant darul ulooms does not constitute a necessity.

Interesting thoughts. I would like to see an 'explanation' for this from ulema InshaAllah.

To my limited knowledge and undertanding there is absolutely no historical precedence for women acquiring knowledge in this manner. We have had some great women Scholars in our history but no precedence of women travelling and staying in foreign land without Mahram and mot certainly NOTHING from the Salaf or from the era of the great Imams.

If some examples can be given (by someone please) then this was neither common nor mainstream.

The whole dicussion is about interpretation of Duroora (necessity), whoever has understood it is from Allah (SWT) and whoever is still confused is from my stupidity.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

ENIGMA
05-02-2010, 05:04 PM
What colonel is saying is can a women stay in a place that is outside the shari guidelines in terms of distance without a mahram.

This is not about travelling but the actual staying over for long periods of time,well over the shari allowance(in terms of distance) without a mahram present.

If the place of stay is within the shari guidelines(distance) then its not much of a issue as a woman can travel within the distance thus stay over.

the issue is can she STAY FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN A PLACE THAT IS WELL AWAY FROM HER HOME(in terms of distance,shari distance) WITHOUT A MAHRAM.

THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT TRAVEL ITSELF BUT THE STAYING OVER WITHOUT A MAHRAM.

And colonel is asking where is a shari proof or a historical account of Muslim women doing that in the past. If Muslim women did travel to seek knowledge,then a mahram would have not only accompanied them but also stayed with them(im assuming). If a mahram is staying with them then its a non story.

ps. im not siding with either side,but i thought i'd clarify colonels stance as others here seem to have not grasped his point.

women travels from leicester to dewsbury with a mahram= NO ISSUE

ISSUE IS THE MAHRAM GOES BACK HOME AND THE WOMAN STAYS AT THIS PLACE WHICH IS WELL OVER THE PRESCRIBED DISTANCE IN SHARIAH.

phew!

verdana
05-02-2010, 05:34 PM
the issue is can she STAY FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN A PLACE THAT IS WELL AWAY FROM HER HOME(in terms of distance,shari distance) WITHOUT A MAHRAM.

Aren't muslim girls in "girls-only" darul ulums considered mahrams for a girl? If so, then why do you say staying "without mahram" ?

hope1
06-02-2010, 04:30 AM
Assalamu aliakum,

I think it is allowed to stay over at a different place by oneself as I have never heard any prohibition against it. Once the girl reaches the Darul Uloom she will make that her watn. Once that is her watn then what's incorrect if she stay there alone? There is nothing connecting a woman's watn with her mahrams.

Suyuti
06-02-2010, 08:02 AM
Colonel sahib i salute you. This is a good thread. The issue of female darul ulooms has been a subject of debate amongst deobandi ulama from the time of shaikh ashraf ali thanwi r.a. Shaikh thanwi was of the opinion that to leave girls in a darul uloom is a Fitnah. Later the great shaikh mufti rasheed ahmed ludhyanwi also gave the same fatwa(ahsanul fatawa) Mufti rasheed sahib also issued a fatwa against masturaat jamaat(based on the same principle) this fatwa was endorsed n signed by hundreds if not thousands of indo-pak ulama.
I too have studied in a madrasa for many years and i know that what the people say about darul ulooms is very close to the truth. Majority of the students in darul ulooms are different to your everyday muslims music drugs women films etc were a everyday topic of discussion.
Somebody on this thread used the mufti sahib of darul uloom bury as evidence to say it is ok to attend university for male n female students...firstly Mufti sahib is my ustaad n a v v knowledgable person but he is not a shari' daleel. Shari' daleels are quran sunnah ijmaa n qiyaas. Secondly the honourable mufti sahibs daughter was in egypt last year n yes she travelled without a mahram but with a group of girls. This group of girls went to egypt with only one male companion who was the husband of one of the girls and not a mahram of the others. I know mufti sahib did go to egypt to visit his daughter but that was just a visit.
My point is that we cant use scholars n muftis actions as evidence in shariah, they are human after all. Mufti sahib may have had pressure from his family to allow his daughter to go he may even consider imam shafis opinion to be correct (a woman is allowed to travel with a group of trustworthy women) But under no circumstances can we say yes it is allowed for a woman to travel to egypt without a mahram because the mufti of darul uloom bury allowed his daughter to go

The Deen
06-02-2010, 07:41 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

I don't have a ruling but I have read a number of times regarding this issue that females should be sent locally and not away from the parents.

For example: http://www.khanqah.org/books/show/the-rights-of-husband (page 38 of the booklet mentions a girl should go to the school during the day and return at home at night) but of course that is the opinion of one Shaykh amongst many.

ENIGMA
06-02-2010, 08:21 PM
Colonel sahib i salute you. This is a good thread. The issue of female darul ulooms has been a subject of debate amongst deobandi ulama from the time of shaikh ashraf ali thanwi r.a. Shaikh thanwi was of the opinion that to leave girls in a darul uloom is a Fitnah. Later the great shaikh mufti rasheed ahmed ludhyanwi also gave the same fatwa(ahsanul fatawa) Mufti rasheed sahib also issued a fatwa against masturaat jamaat(based on the same principle) this fatwa was endorsed n signed by hundreds if not thousands of indo-pak ulama.
I too have studied in a madrasa for many years and i know that what the people say about darul ulooms is very close to the truth. Majority of the students in darul ulooms are different to your everyday muslims music drugs women films etc were a everyday topic of discussion.
Somebody on this thread used the mufti sahib of darul uloom bury as evidence to say it is ok to attend university for male n female students...firstly Mufti sahib is my ustaad n a v v knowledgable person but he is not a shari' daleel. Shari' daleels are quran sunnah ijmaa n qiyaas. Secondly the honourable mufti sahibs daughter was in egypt last year n yes she travelled without a mahram but with a group of girls. This group of girls went to egypt with only one male companion who was the husband of one of the girls and not a mahram of the others. I know mufti sahib did go to egypt to visit his daughter but that was just a visit.
My point is that we cant use scholars n muftis actions as evidence in shariah, they are human after all. Mufti sahib may have had pressure from his family to allow his daughter to go he may even consider imam shafis opinion to be correct (a woman is allowed to travel with a group of trustworthy women) But under no circumstances can we say yes it is allowed for a woman to travel to egypt without a mahram because the mufti of darul uloom bury allowed his daughter to go

Well this is the problem,isn't it. These people champion Hanafi fiqh yet themselves use other schools for leeway. No wonder the laymen have also started to pick and choose. I mean why do people here bash salafis when our own esteemed scholars are picking and choosing.

In the real world,people will look at the actions of the scholars as proof. its just natural. Its no point saying we cant do this that etc and then people look at the scholars doing exactly what we are told not to. What do you mean Mufti sahib had pressure from his household??!!! he is one of the highest ranking hanafi mufti's in the UK and if you're saying due to pressure from family,he is prepared to change rulings to suit them,well, that is out of order. If his daughter went without his blessing then he should make it clear that she has done so without my approval as I(Mufti sahib)is against it. Just because she wants to go dosent mean he has to let her. Im assuming she is a laimah. if not,then atleast she will be well versed in the masail of travel. so she shoudl know herself she cannot travel without a mahram.

Im telling you,the bashing of salafis is out of order seeing as our own DEOBAND elders of the UK are clearly picking and choosing.

Im sorry, but I find it offensive that from the pulpits they will say we cannot do this,we cannot do that yet themselves,for their own issues will do exactly the opposite. No wonder people lose confidence with the scholars.

his daughter might say I want to cut my hair short,or do xyz. does that mean mufti sahib will allow it??

hope1
06-02-2010, 09:00 PM
Well this is the problem,isn't it. These people champion Hanafi fiqh yet themselves use other schools for leeway. No wonder the laymen have also started to pick and choose. I mean why do people here bash salafis when our own esteemed scholars are picking and choosing.

In the real world,people will look at the actions of the scholars as proof. its just natural. Its no point saying we cant do this that etc and then people look at the scholars doing exactly what we are told not to. What do you mean Mufti sahib had pressure from his household??!!! he is one of the highest ranking hanafi mufti's in the UK and if you're saying due to pressure from family,he is prepared to change rulings to suit them,well, that is out of order. If his daughter went without his blessing then he should make it clear that she has done so without my approval as I(Mufti sahib)is against it. Just because she wants to go dosent mean he has to let her. Im assuming she is a laimah. if not,then atleast she will be well versed in the masail of travel. so she shoudl know herself she cannot travel without a mahram.

Im telling you,the bashing of salafis is out of order seeing as our own DEOBAND elders of the UK are clearly picking and choosing.

Im sorry, but I find it offensive that from the pulpits they will say we cannot do this,we cannot do that yet themselves,for their own issues will do exactly the opposite. No wonder people lose confidence with the scholars.

his daughter might say I want to cut my hair short,or do xyz. does that mean mufti sahib will allow it??

Assalamu aliakum brother,

This is a very disturbing thing and we had discussed this many times on other threads with Mufti Husain. Even that day I went to the airport and one imam was dropping off his family to go to England. If ulema cannot set the example then how do they expect laymen to follow.

One other thing I have noticed is that there are some issues that Deobandis don't want to compromise and other issues they are willing to compromise - no usool is clear as to why they pick one to be more important than the other. Salafi bashing is unjustified not only because we are picking and choosing, but the "traditionalists" pick and choose as a matter of principle and they are not attacked - it's only the salafis.

Colonel_Hardstone
08-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Assalamu aliakum,

I think it is allowed to stay over at a different place by oneself as I have never heard any prohibition against it. Once the girl reaches the Darul Uloom she will make that her watn. Once that is her watn then what's incorrect if she stay there alone? There is nothing connecting a woman's watn with her mahrams.

:ws:

very simple...

If this is Islam then why was over 1000+ years of Islamic history devoid of any such practice and institutions?

I actually took the time to visit a Deobandi Maulana who is associated with Girls Darul-ulooms (in Pakistan) whom I provide humble assistance with translations etc and Shaykh (DB) absolutely backed my point of view about Pakistan i.e:

a) A vast number of Sisters are Orphans, without families, from broken families so Darul-uloom looks after them and that's why Darul-ulooms (from Pakistan) accept Zakat money.

b) Other Sisters are local students

There is NO CASE WHICH THE SHAYKH knew of a girl travelling from Peshawar to Karachi (just an example) to acquire knowledge, this is something which doesn't happen (at least in Pakistan).


Assalamu Alaykum,

I don't have a ruling but I have read a number of times regarding this issue that females should be sent locally and not away from the parents.

For example: http://www.khanqah.org/books/show/the-rights-of-husband (page 38 of the booklet mentions a girl should go to the school during the day and return at home at night) but of course that is the opinion of one Shaykh amongst many.

:ws:

That is all I am saying i.e. girls should be educated locally and not put in Hostels in far away lands this leads to Fitnah and Fasad.

Fatwa may permit this sort of thing but to apply and give a blanket permission for girls to stay in hostels for years on end, simply has no example or precedence in Islamic history.

Those who are claiming this, please provide your evidence of institutions and hostels for girls. I can categorically say that this is not something which was wide-spread or common.

What the Ulama of Darul-uloom Bury do on a daily basis is their business and my daughter untill she becomes Baaligh is my business.

London786
08-02-2010, 11:49 AM
Bro the situation in the girl’s madaris is very sad to say the least. I want some suggestions as I am looking to write to some of the darulooms and one of my respected teachers runs a local girl’s daruloom but mashallah he is very open to reform……I mean you would understand a few rotten apples…….but out of a class of 30 how many of them actually learn and act sensibly……the figure even an optimistic one is very low

Live for Islam
09-02-2010, 10:58 AM
This is not an issue for non-Ulama to sit here and discuss. And the discussing of the personal issues of a Mufti's household (especially) on a public forum is completely out of order. How can we be so judgemental?

Thread closed. Do not discuss that which is of no benefit to you and avoid discussing the family of a Scholar. Have some respect.