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Colonel_Hardstone
16-03-2010, 01:35 PM
:salam:

It has been my intention to register on a PRO-PAKISTAN-ARMY forum and taking on all the PAK-ARMY Supporters head-on, Insha'Allah on the issue of Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa.

But I need some information and one of them being upon which their whole straw-man argument is based...

They say that if hunderds of boys and girls were indeed massacared and a lot of them are missing to this day where are the official police reports of missing people (called FIR in Pakistan).

1) Is it simply that many of the Parents never engaged the Police due to their mistrust in Busharraf Government?

2) Police never registered any complains of missing people?

3) Police purged the official records?

There is no doubt that PAK-ARMY used white phosphorus and other deadly weapons against children who were engaged in learning the Deen of Allah (SWT) and their bodies were disfigured and a lot of times unidentifiable.

May Allah (SWT) accept all the Shuhada of Jamia Hafsa/Lal Masjid.

P.S: Zaid Hamid fully supported this PAK-ARMY massacare and still does to this day!

The Fake Shaykh
16-03-2010, 01:43 PM
may allah swt deal with them and give them what they deserve

The Fake Shaykh
16-03-2010, 01:49 PM
The master of martyrs (sayyid al-shuhada) is Hamza, and a man who stands up to a tyrant ruler and gives him nasiha (advice). And so the ruler kills him"

The Prophet (SAW) continued to say : 'By Allah you have to enjoin good (Maroof) and forbid evil (Munkar), and hold against the hand of the unjust ruler (Zalim), and force him on the truth strongly, or you have to limit him to the truth'. By this evidence, which is the hadith commenting on the verse, Allah (SWT) has prohibited us from remaining silent against the evil (Munkar), and He commanded us to remove it. Allah (SWT) commanded the Muslims to enjoin Maroof and deny Munkar, and made it a duty upon them to do so. Allah (SWT) said; 'Let it be from among you a group who call to the good, enjoin Maroof and deny Munkar'. Allah (SWT) also said: 'You have been the best nation (Ummah) brought to the people, because you enjoin Maroof and deny Munkar'. [Musnad of Ahmad]

'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood (radiallaahu 'anhu) used to say:

"Whoever aids an oppressor or taught him an argument to nullify the right of an ordinary Muslims, has drawn upon himself the anger of Allaah".

Colonel_Hardstone
16-03-2010, 02:28 PM
:salam:

These people who are defending the actions of Busharraf and PAK-ARMY with regards to Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa should really Fear for their Eemaan. I do worry about that a lot...

Adeel bin Minhaj
16-03-2010, 02:39 PM
:salam:

The crimes that occurred on this institution of deen and against students/teachers of Deen will go down in history as one of the biggest tragedies that I have ever come to know.

I listen to this Nasheed and thoughts of Lal Masjid come to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZqPOTG-HV8

Ahmad_shakeel
16-03-2010, 04:59 PM
:salam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZqPOTG-HV8

:subh:

caravan of martyrs
16-03-2010, 05:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJh3A42gVRA

vagabond
16-03-2010, 05:46 PM
:salam:

The crimes that occurred on this institution of deen and against students/teachers of Deen will go down in history as one of the biggest tragedies that I have ever come to know.

I listen to this Nasheed and thoughts of Lal Masjid come to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZqPOTG-HV8

As far as tragedies, massacres, as loss of Muslim life is concerned - unfortunately the horrific slaughter at Lal Masjid barely registers in the history books ... :(

Just a reality check ...

Sunnionline.english
16-03-2010, 06:14 PM
:salam:

These people who are defending the actions of Busharraf and PAK-ARMY with regards to Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa should really Fear for their Eemaan. I do worry about that a lot...

You are absolutely right, they must do Tawba. I read some where Mr. Tahir Alqadri was supporting Busharraf to damage Jamia Hafsa and students over there. I remember statements of Sunni Tehreek (extremist Brelwis, this organasation was founded by support of Shiites in Krachi, Pakistan to takfeer Deobandis) and all organasations of Shia at that time they were encourging Busharraf to efface innocent students and their children. What was the fault of Shaheed A.Rasheed Ghazi's mother?? and dozens kids teachers and students of Jamia Hafsa?

flyingphtm
16-03-2010, 07:37 PM
May Allah forgive us all . Sometimes i cannot sleep at nights thinking of those poor kids who were brutally masacared and when this happened i remember lots of pakistani's i talked to were making excuses for Busharraf. I remember thinking to my self how can pakistan be ok after this?

saqfu
16-03-2010, 08:51 PM
the good news in this massacre is that i know what happend to the main imam in his grave. i am a sufi and i have connections with people who have kashf. they tell us that the main imam who died has attained a very high level of martyrdom and that he reads bukhari hadithhes to a group of people in his grave

Jawad_ Khan
17-03-2010, 04:33 AM
May Allah forgive us all . Sometimes i cannot sleep at nights thinking of those poor kids who were brutally masacared and when this happened i remember lots of pakistani's i talked to were making excuses for Busharraf. I remember thinking to my self how can pakistan be ok after this?

Actually Pakistan has not been ok since the Lal Masjid Massacre........ I heard from many Ulama at that time that this will come back to haunt the whole nation.......May Allah(SWT) elevate the status of the martyrs and help Pakistan recover.

MohammadMufti
17-03-2010, 05:03 AM
One thing always bothers me about the Lal Musjid Massacre. It seemed very fishy about why the students would for no apparent reason have chosen this particular time for their acting out against the vices. Ijaz ul Haq (PML-Z) even suggested after his discussion with Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi as-shaheed that it seemed to him that Mawlana had been somehow forced into this confrontation. This is the particular question I wanted to raise when president Musharraf came a few days ago but unfortunately the selection of questioners was rather co-ordinated anyways and only 2 of the important questions were able to get raised.

Concerning the claims of the martyrdom of children/women, they argue that there wasn't any children at the Masjid at the time they destroyed it. Here's what the Prez said concerning it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkHMWtQwvBo


the good news in this massacre is that i know what happend to the main imam in his grave. i am a sufi and i have connections with people who have kashf. they tell us that the main imam who died has attained a very high level of martyrdom and that he reads bukhari hadithhes to a group of people in his grave

I don't know about that but I do remember seeing how even after death, mawlana was smiling and some people attested to their having been a fragrance from his grave.


... and all organasations of Shia at that time they were encourging Busharraf to efface innocent students and their children.

Mawlana actually mentioned over the phone how the squad sent in to attack the jamia were yelling Ya 'Ali as they riddled the Jamia with holes and sent the Masjid on fire, and there were also reports of brave soldiers who refused orders to do this attack against their brothers/sisters. It stands to reason that no Sunni, no Muslim would have been willing to go through with this kind of barbarism at a House of God so they had to rely on those guys instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2h5ECa_qE

Abu_Bilal
17-03-2010, 09:00 AM
Assalam Alaikum.

I will never ever forget the 10 days, during which the Lal Masjid Operation was carried out.

Those 10 days are the most horrible, cruel, barbaric and sad days of my life.

I was there at the scene! I can not disclose a lot, since this is a public forum, but i lost so many friends. I knew Muftis, Sheikh-ul-Hadeeths, tons of Huffaz, all of whom were amongst the shuhuda. I was not destined to become a martyr, otherwise I also would have been amongst those great people.

Anyways, I will never ever forgive the Pakistan Army. My father served in the Army for 30 years, and i loved the noble army of his era. But I have lost ALL the respect for them now.

I don't know what to say. I can write so much on the topic, but i don't see the use in it. Since no one of the great ulema can come back. I can just cry, and shed all the tears that i have, and that's about it.

I still have with me, some soil and dust from the grave of Ghazi Sahab. It still gives the smell of roses. I pray to Allah, that on the day of Qayamah, may I also stand alongwith the shuhuda. Ameen.

Abu_Bilal
17-03-2010, 09:08 AM
:salam:

They say that if hunderds of boys and girls were indeed massacared and a lot of them are missing to this day where are the official police reports of missing people (called FIR in Pakistan).

1) Is it simply that many of the Parents never engaged the Police due to their mistrust in Busharraf Government?

2) Police never registered any complains of missing people?

3) Police purged the official records?



Walikum-us-salam.

Following are the answers ..

1) Most of the parents did not goto Police, and they just left it to Allah. Since most of the parents were themselves Ulema and pious people, they saw no use in going to the Police, who was working under a corrupt regime.

2) Police did register the complains and FIRs. Go to google and try searching "Khalid Khawaja". He is a retired Air Force Officer, and he was behind all the FIRs for the missing persons. There is a lot of detail behind it, and i am sure you can find it online.

3) Yeah, a lot of record was purged. The total number of shuhuda were around 1200. See the link below, and it should make you cry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzv0lFnwjbs

sussana
17-03-2010, 09:21 AM
This is the result of the massacre of poor students in lal masjid that our country is facing troubles these days. the shortage of food, water, energy etc etc...

Colonel_Hardstone
17-03-2010, 11:11 AM
Walikum-us-salam.

Following are the answers ..

1) Most of the parents did not goto Police, and they just left it to Allah. Since most of the parents were themselves Ulema and pious people, they saw no use in going to the Police, who was working under a corrupt regime.

2) Police did register the complains and FIRs. Go to google and try searching "Khalid Khawaja". He is a retired Air Force Officer, and he was behind all the FIRs for the missing persons. There is a lot of detail behind it, and i am sure you can find it online.

3) Yeah, a lot of record was purged. The total number of shuhuda were around 1200. See the link below, and it should make you cry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzv0lFnwjbs

:ws: Maulana,

This is what I was looking for.

:jazak:

Here is a recent interview of Khalid Khawaja:

http://www.azaantv.tv/intellecttalk_detail.asp?str_mid=46

I will listen to it again for any clues on Lal Masjid

binte sulaiman
17-03-2010, 07:16 PM
Wa alaikumus salam

Can anybody explain what happened at Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa?

marco100
17-03-2010, 07:59 PM
:salam:

Why bring this up? It's a very difficult and painful topic for any mo'min to have to read about. :cry:

المفكّر
17-03-2010, 09:54 PM
Wa alaikumus salam

Can anybody explain what happened at Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa?

I second this request. I too want to know about the real story behind this incident, since the way it was presented by the mass media seemed real dodgy to me. Then I saw that picture of the deceased smiling Maulana in my local newspaper (and truth be told, he looked like someone asleep rather than dead) and my suspicions were confirmed.

a_muslim
17-03-2010, 10:38 PM
:salam:


I second this request. I too want to know about the real story behind this incident, since the way it was presented by the mass media seemed real dodgy to me. Then I saw that picture of the deceased smiling Maulana in my local newspaper (and truth be told, he looked like someone asleep rather than dead) and my suspicions were confirmed.

And I third the request. Maybe just a brief outline would be enough. :jazak:




Mawlana actually mentioned over the phone how the squad sent in to attack the jamia were yelling Ya 'Ali as they riddled the Jamia with holes and sent the Masjid on fire, and there were also reports of brave soldiers who refused orders to do this attack against their brothers/sisters. It stands to reason that no Sunni, no Muslim would have been willing to go through with this kind of barbarism at a House of God so they had to rely on those guys instead.



Not only shi'as yell Ya 'Ali.

MohammadMufti
17-03-2010, 11:56 PM
Not only shi'as yell Ya 'Ali.

Can you give an example in history where a Sunni was yelling "Ya 'Ali" while attacking a Sunni Musjid? Mawlana was there, I think I'll trust his understanding of what they were yelling and why when they attacked as opposed to anonymous conjecture. Not to mention the context of one of the first controversial acts of the jamia students was the shutting down of a brothel run by Shi'a under the pretense of mut'a...

binte sulaiman
18-03-2010, 12:20 AM
Wa alaikumus salaam

@marco100- Brother, do we have no right to know what happened to our brothers and sisters? Please brother, please tell us.

caravan of martyrs
18-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Can you give an example in history where a Sunni was yelling "Ya 'Ali" while attacking a Sunni Musjid? Mawlana was there, I think I'll trust his understanding of what they were yelling and why when they attacked as opposed to anonymous conjecture. Not to mention the context of one of the first controversial acts of the jamia students was the shutting down of a brothel run by Shi'a under the pretense of mut'a...

brealwis. infact i was on one of their sites and they were boasting how the shia stole all the slogans from them lol. just pop over to that satanic brealwi site ( you know which one im referrign to) and you will see the kufr shirk slogans they have

arius
18-03-2010, 04:54 AM
The Lal Masjid massacre was the second gravest most serious tragedy in the history of Pakistan Movement after the separation of East Pakistan as Bangladesh. Inna Lillah-i-wa inna Ilaihay rajiun.
Pakistan was separated from India on the basis of all Muslims being a single separate nation; the next step of the Movement was to be the unity of Ummah-- perhaps in a Nato-type alliance with the attack on one Muslim nation being considered an attack on all, but look at what a bunch of Munafiqs at the helm has done to the Pakistan Movement-- the very existence of Pakistan itself is in danger.

ahb
18-03-2010, 07:31 AM
thanks and very nice

pawlak
18-03-2010, 09:29 PM
The Lal Masjid massacre was the second gravest most serious tragedy in the history of Pakistan Movement after the separation of East Pakistan as Bangladesh. Inna Lillah-i-wa inna Ilaihay rajiun.
Pakistan was separated from India on the basis of all Muslims being a single separate nation;

Hmm, you seems to be deceived by the propaganda of the British imperialists. Please check the following link to understand
one of the greatest hoaxes of the 20th century.


http://www.sasnet.lu.se/ishtiaqtext.html

Whatever may be said about limitations of the ideology of the Western educated Muslim Professionals and the salariat (and

of the feudals in the final round) who mobilised support for the creation of Pakistan, religious ideology was never a part

of it … Fundamentalist Islamic ideology has played no part in the origins of Pakistan.


The great skill of Jinnah was that until the last moment he did not explain what his idea of Pakistan was. It is not

surprising that his 11 August 1947 speech to the Pakistan Constituent Assembly in which he spelt out the vision of a

secular and democratic Pakistan surprised many of his followers. His sympathetic biographer Stanley Wolpert has recorded

this point succinctly (Wolpert, 1993: 340).


The strategy not to discuss the ideology of Pakistan provided Jinnah with considerable flexibility and room to manoeuvre

his campaign for Pakistan as and when the situation required. The task was formidable and the adversaries strong and well

organised. Thus in late January 1947 when the Muslim League launched its direct action campaign in the Punjab against the

government of Khizr Tiwana, the Punjab governor, Sir Evan Jenkins, met the visiting all-India Muslim League leader Khawaja

Nazimuddin on 18 February and later wrote in his fortnightly report to the viceroy:

In our first meeting Khawaja Nazim-ud-Din admitted candidly that he did not know what Pakistan means, and that nobody in

the ML knew, so it was difficult for the League to carry on long term negotiations with the minorities. (March 1947: L/P &

J/5/250, p. 3/79).

a_muslim
18-03-2010, 10:28 PM
:salam:


Can you give an example in history where a Sunni was yelling "Ya 'Ali" while attacking a Sunni Musjid? Mawlana was there, I think I'll trust his understanding of what they were yelling and why when they attacked as opposed to anonymous conjecture. Not to mention the context of one of the first controversial acts of the jamia students was the shutting down of a brothel run by Shi'a under the pretense of mut'a...

The ending of this video, i think, is an example in history where a "sunni" was yelling ya ali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCRX_q739g&feature=related

And I'm sure you have heard "narey haideri"s before frm people who aren't shi'a.

From the rest of your post it seems that you thought i did not believe what you or Mawlana Abu Bilal were saying. Brother, wallahi, almost every post i've read on this thread i've learnt something new and the thought didn't even cross my mind that Mawlana wasn't telling the truth. In fact, on topics like this one (i.e about Pakistan e.g. recent assasssination of Mawlana Saeed Jalalpuri), I look forward to reading posts from Mawlana Abu Bilal, Colonel_Hardstone and yourself. I just mentioned that not only shias do it as a side note.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
19-03-2010, 12:24 AM
:salam:
The ending of this video, i think, is an example in history where a "sunni" was yelling ya ali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCRX_q739g&feature=related


lol @ these videos, both sides need some serious kicking in the behind, it's like this is how it would be if forum members would "discuss" such issues. astaghfirullah

arius
19-03-2010, 04:54 AM
Hmm, you seems to be deceived by the propaganda of the British imperialists.
The founder of the Pakistan Movemnent was Mujadid-i-Alf Thani Hazrat Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi Naqshbandi, who countered the Mughal Emperor Akbar's efforts to merge Muslims with Hindus. The British Divide and Rule policy was used by the spiritual patrons of the Pakistan Movement to further the separation of Muslims from the Hindus until the gulf became unbridgable. The Bihar massacre proved to be the undoing of the Cabinet Mission plan of the British to keep India united. In other words things got out of hand
for the British and they had no choice but to go along with the creation of Pakistan.
This exclusivist (Mulla-oriented) current of Pakistan Movement is to be superceded by the inclusive Sufism-oriented current only after the formation of a Nato-type alliance of the Islamic states, when this alliance would be strong and dominant enough for its say to have effect in the ultimate dialogue between the civilizations on the basis of mysticism. Ulema need to emulate the example of such founders of the Pakistan Movemnent as the Shaikh of Sirhind and Shah Waliullah and incorporate the Sufi current in their teachings to become an effective part of the Pakistan Movement relevant in the age of mysticism and Globalism/Universalism.

binte sulaiman
19-03-2010, 05:03 AM
@arius - Regarding the ulama of deoband; were they against/with the creation of pakistan??

MohammadMufti
19-03-2010, 05:44 AM
I wasn't suggesting that Sunna haven't given naray haideri - I just doubted that a Sunni would be yelling it while attacking a Sunni musjid. Otherwise, I believe we're in complete agreement.

arius
19-03-2010, 07:13 AM
@arius - Regarding the ulama of deoband; were they against/with the creation of pakistan?? Hazrat Shabbir Ahmad Usmani supported the Muslim League. The Pakistan Movement is basically a Sufi Movement, therefore only the Ulema with a strong Sufi orientation would be relevant in the context of this movement of pan-Islamism. May the Deobandis adopt the Sufi orientation, like the Tablighis have done to some extent.

Dhul-Qarnayn
19-03-2010, 11:08 AM
Hazrat Shabbir Ahmad Usmani supported the Muslim League. The Pakistan Movement is basically a Sufi Movement, therefore only the Ulema with a strong Sufi orientation would be relevant in the context of this movement of pan-Islamism. May the Deobandis adopt the Sufi orientation, like the Tablighis have done to some extent.The Tablighis ARE Deobandis.

The Pakistan Movement was a secular political movement of Jinnah and Muslim League.

But the idea for Pakistan was an Islamic one and it belonged to Muhammad Iqbal. Reknown for his Sufi poetry he was also influenced by Deobandi Ulema, like Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri (ra).

“The Past five hundred years of Islamic history can not produce the like of Mawlana Kashmiri” - Iqbal

You can say indirectly Pakistan had "Islamist" beginnings, both Sufi and political Deobandi (Anwar Shah Kashmiri (ra) sat at the head of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind, JUH, which was opposed to partition initially and he himself, like many senior Deobandi Ulema, were Sufis).

When partition seemed inevitable, the JUH compromised and Ulema like Shabbir Ahmad Usmani (ra) began to support Jinnah and the Muslim League while JUH concentrated on worrying about Indian Muslims who wouldn't become a part of Pakistan. The JUI was formed for Pakistan later.

Deobandis do accept four Sufi tariqas, Naqshbandi, Suharwardi, Chisti, Qadiri. You live in Pakistan so I'm surprised you don't know all this already. But Deobandis do have a much stronger presence in Karachi.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?18292-Allamah-Sayyid-Muhammad-Anwar-Shah-Kashmiri

Jawad_ Khan
19-03-2010, 11:44 AM
Hazrat Shabbir Ahmad Usmani supported the Muslim League. The Pakistan Movement is basically a Sufi Movement, therefore only the Ulema with a strong Sufi orientation would be relevant in the context of this movement of pan-Islamism. May the Deobandis adopt the Sufi orientation, like the Tablighis have done to some extent.

Brother, Tablighi Jamat are actually deobandi.......The pakistan movement was supported by the Great Aulia of that time like Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi R.A and other leading Ulama like Hazrat Mufti Shafi Sahab R.A.......

Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab has just recently given a detailed interview on this very subject.....i think anyone with doubts should listen to it

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
19-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Brother, Tablighi Jamat are actually deobandi.......The pakistan movement was supported by the Great Aulia of that time like Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi R.A and other leading Ulama like Hazrat Mufti Shafi Sahab R.A.......

Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab has just recently given a detailed interview on this very subject.....i think anyone with doubts should listen to it

Please post the direct link to the interview. Jazakallah khair

Adeel bin Minhaj
19-03-2010, 05:10 PM
Please post the direct link to the interview. Jazakallah khair

http://azaantv.tv/islamichistory_detail.asp?str_mid=33

saqfu
19-03-2010, 05:25 PM
This is the result of the massacre of poor students in lal masjid that our country is facing troubles these days. the shortage of food, water, energy etc etc...

ur absolutley correct, thats what our seniors say. they explain that the load shedding, hortage of food and water ect is all a collective punishment on pakistant for the attack on lal masjid

Ahmad_shakeel
19-03-2010, 05:26 PM
salam,

Jinnah and Scholars
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?23967-Jinnah-and-Scholars&highlight=jinnah

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?39046-Muhammad-Ali-Jinnah-Did-he-make-tawbah&p=328057&viewfull=1

seeker_ikb
20-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Brother, Tablighi Jamat are actually deobandi.......The pakistan movement was supported by the Great Aulia of that time like Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi R.A and other leading Ulama like Hazrat Mufti Shafi Sahab R.A.......

Mufti Rafi Usmani sahab has just recently given a detailed interview on this very subject.....i think anyone with doubts should listen to it

Zinnah seems to be a master con- man. Check the pages 170 - 176 of this book " Prisoners of Malta "

http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=856

There you will see how Zinnah contacted the Ulema of JUH in 1936 and won their trust. Then due to the charismatic leadership of Mawlana Hussain Ahmad Madani ( RAH ) and his associates, grassroot support for Muslim League (ML ) achieved to such extent that ML had a great success in the subsequent elections.

Then what happened ? Zinnah broke the promises made ealier to the Ulema of JUH !!!!

A master con-man indeed !!!!!!!!! Is this difficult or impossible for this man to cheat some saints ( Aulia ) of that time in India ?

arius
20-03-2010, 04:53 AM
Zinnah seems to be a master con- man. This is outrageous; Jinnah (May God forgive and bless him)'s strength of character happens to be one of the means used by the spiritual patrons of the Pakistan Movement for the creation of Pakistan.
Moreover, twisting the tongue to distort meanings of words and especially names of people is totally un-Islamic. I am deeply hurt and offended by this comment, as every pro-Pakistan mind would be.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
20-03-2010, 05:51 AM
Zinnah seems to be a master con- man. Check the pages 170 - 176 of this book " Prisoners of Malta "

http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=856

There you will see how Zinnah contacted the Ulema of JUH in 1936 and won their trust. Then due to the charismatic leadership of Mawlana Hussain Ahmad Madani ( RAH ) and his associates, grassroot support for Muslim League (ML ) achieved to such extent that ML had a great success in the subsequent elections.

Then what happened ? Zinnah broke the promises made ealier to the Ulema of JUH !!!!

A master con-man indeed !!!!!!!!! Is this difficult or impossible for this man to cheat some saints ( Aulia ) of that time in India ?


Wow, if I had the power to ban you, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Anyways, you've been reported.

seeker_ikb
20-03-2010, 08:32 AM
This is outrageous; Jinnah (May God forgive and bless him)'s strength of character happens to be one of the means used by the spiritual patrons of the Pakistan Movement for the creation of Pakistan.
Moreover, twisting the tongue to distort meanings of words and especially names of people is totally un-Islamic. I am deeply hurt and offended by this comment, as every pro-Pakistan mind would be.

Please back up your emotional outburst with an authentic reference. From my side, I have given you a credible reference.
The book " Prisoners of Malta " is really an amazing book. The issue of Zinnah's deception is mentioned in pages 170-175 which
can be downloaded from the following link.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uzcibl

arius
20-03-2010, 10:25 AM
What are you talking about? Jinnah was the fundamental pivot around which the Pakistan Movement revolved for nearly 20 years. Even his enemies acknowledged his strength of charachter in commitment to his principles. On the other hand a major faction of the Deobandis were unable to perceive the spiritual significance of the Pakistan Movement because of a not-so-strong sufi perspective, and did oppose the creation of Pakistan

xs11ax
20-03-2010, 11:02 AM
Wow, if I had the power to ban you, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Anyways, you've been reported.

what has he written thats so bad that he deserves to be banned?

he has put forward his opinion and argument. if you think he is wrong then put forth a counter argument. thats how discussion forums work.

caravan of martyrs
20-03-2010, 01:06 PM
you people should calm down. he is just expressing an opinion. why do pakistanis get soo excited over jinnah. i have heard PERSONALLY from a senoir deobanid mufti of indian who is in his 70s, a khulafa of hazrat shaikh hussain madani (ra), who was activiely involved witht he politics of the division and he said openly JINNAH was a KAAFIR masjoosi. he lied to many ulema and went back on his words numersous times. you shoudl fear Allah (swt) when calling any tom **** and harry a wali allah. the best stance to have on his is to be silent. as senior ulema have both shown supported and opposition to him

xs11ax
20-03-2010, 02:39 PM
you people should calm down. he is just expressing an opinion. why do pakistanis get soo excited over jinnah.

my pakstani friends hate it when i remind them that jinnah was a indian gujarati :cheesygri

marco100
20-03-2010, 03:13 PM
my pakstani friends hate it when i remind them that jinnah was a indian gujarati :cheesygri

:salam: brother

he was probably a huge fan of khitchri kurri with papad too ;)

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
20-03-2010, 04:38 PM
what has he written thats so bad that he deserves to be banned?

he has put forward his opinion and argument. if you think he is wrong then put forth a counter argument. thats how discussion forums work.

It's nothing to do with his argument. Why does he use "Zinnah" instead of his actual name?

hussainahmed
20-03-2010, 06:48 PM
I study in darul uloom and many of my teachers who are from Pakistan are now saying, looking at the current situation hazrat hussain ahmed (RAH) had a better strategy for the muslims. creation of pakistan resulted muslims splitting into 3 nations, pakistan, bangladesh and those in india, while at the same time combining the hindus, sikhs and other baatil religions into one. who gained from creation of pakistan. even in pakistan true muslims and islam are mazloom. the main fear of the muslims that wanted to create pakistan was that when the english leave hindus will overcome us. stance of jamiaat hind was for muslims to be more brave. if muslims were together they could have easily overcome the hindus with the help of allah (by looking at Indian history we can see hindus are cowards and never fight). the english had most to gain as it is their policy divide and rule and they want to weaken the position os islam and muslims. jinnah was just putting their plan into practice. where was jinnah educated and who did he spend his time with?) ulamaa were mislead into beleiving all this was in the name of ismal and that in the end they would have an islamic state, therefore sacrificed their blood for the creation of pakistaan. now look at the situation of pakistan. how much of a say do ulamaa have in anything. so many have been made shaheed and are still getting killed. creation of pakistan also weakened the position of muslims in india. also maulanna ashraf ali thanvi had many conditions in the support of pakistan. that it would be ruled according to islam etc. i dont think he would have supported the creation of pakistan if he knew it would end up in the mess it is in. is seems maulana madni knew the english better due to his experiences with them and with his time spent with shaikh ul hind, so he knew the broader picture and he understood the game the english were playing in dividing the country to weaken muslims and strenghted kuffar.
i dont know much on this subject, this is just my basic understanding so i apologize for any mistakes and ALLAH knows best
there will certainly be some hikmah in the creation of pakistaan as whatever happens due to the will of allah has hikmah in it.
may allah have mercy on the nation of Pakistaan and guide its rulers.

lastly question comes to mind. if the english left (without dividing the country) could the muslims once again take over and rule the whole of hundustaan as it had done for over a thousand years before? would (true) muslims be in a stronger position to what they are in now.?

any answers...

saqfu
20-03-2010, 08:31 PM
arius i do zikr and we have people who have kashf and what they tell us of jinnah, who he actually was and what is happening in his grave. if u new too u wouldnt support him any longer

binte sulaiman
21-03-2010, 06:07 AM
http://azaantv.tv/islamichistory_detail.asp?str_mid=33

Jazakallahu Khayran

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
21-03-2010, 06:36 AM
arius i do zikr and we have people who have kashf and what they tell us of jinnah, who he actually was and what is happening in his grave. if u new too u wouldnt support him any longer

what is happening?

seeker_ikb
21-03-2010, 11:11 AM
arius i do zikr and we have people who have kashf and what they tell us of jinnah, who he actually was and what is happening in his grave. if u new too u wouldnt support him any longer

Are you bayah to any Sufi Shaykh ? If so , which silsilah ?

saqfu
21-03-2010, 02:58 PM
what is happening?

jinnah was not the saviour of pakistan. he was an agent of the british. he has died on kuffar and thus is in eternal punishments

saqfu
21-03-2010, 02:59 PM
Are you bayah to any Sufi Shaykh ? If so , which silsilah ?



yes i am bayt to hazrat maulana allah yar khan r.a i follow the silsala naqshbandia awaisia.

Adeel bin Minhaj
22-03-2010, 03:07 AM
:salam:

The information from brother saqfu seems to be contrary to the opinions on this forum, from which I learned that Jinnah at the end of his life was Sunni and learning from great Ulema such as Shabbir Ahmed RA, and that he was the one who led his Janazah prayer.

avid
22-03-2010, 03:27 AM
Assalamualaikum,

One thing that I have been uneasy about since the whole incident was the sisters out in the streets protesting with sticks and/or enforcing some kind of law. All the information is obviously from the mainstream media and therefore designed to paint the most biased picture, so I was wondering if anyone had any more information on the aforementioned episode, what it was all about, etc.

JazakAllahu Khairan.

Jawad_ Khan
22-03-2010, 05:10 AM
I think being muslims we should be more concerned with our own graves rather than those who have passed away.

Whether Jinaah was a good man or not doesnt matter anymore....his case is with Allah(SWT) and we should avoid interfering.

And just to elaborate on what brother Adeel Bin Minhaj said, top Ulema including Hazrat Thanvi R.A had good words to say about Jinnah........It obviously does not mean that Mr. Jinnah was 100% correct, but it does mean that our Akabir kept Husn e Zan with him....so we should also keep it to just that.

Allah(SWt) will decide when the time comes.

maneatinglizard
22-03-2010, 08:44 AM
What are you talking about? Jinnah was the fundamental pivot around which the Pakistan Movement revolved for nearly 20 years. Even his enemies acknowledged his strength of charachter in commitment to his principles. On the other hand a major faction of the Deobandis were unable to perceive the spiritual significance of the Pakistan Movement because of a not-so-strong sufi perspective, and did oppose the creation of Pakistan

You make it seem as if everything rests on Sufism.

Anyways, they say that Jinnah kept a wine glass with him even till his last speech, so I guess that should be a good enough indicator of his dedication to Islam.

Let's not forget his daughter, either.

Not being a Pakistani, or Indian, I can say from my limited (but hopefull unbiased) perspective that it seems that the creation of Pakistan was a bad idea, both for the Muslims of Pakistan and India, and, of course, Bangladesh as well.

المفكّر
22-03-2010, 10:52 AM
:salam:

I too agree with the opinions of the brothers who believe that the creation of Pakistan has not really benefited Islam. To start with, it has divided what was the most concentrated and highest Muslim population block in the world into three different nations, thereby not only weakening the individual nations of Pakistan and Bangladesh but also the Muslim Ummah in the subcontinent as a whole. Adding insult to injury is the fact that neither of these two nations ever got anywhere close to fulfilling the empty promises of providing a proper Islamic state. Not to mention that the partitions only weakened the Muslim population in India where it is constantnly being marginalized and oppressed both socially and economically by the combined forces of the disbelievers. I still believe that the Ulama who disagreed with the creation of Pakistan were blessed with the correct foresight, because then Muslims in India would've had at least a 25% majority instead of the measly 12% they are now and would have had major political power over the governance of the nation. The current condition of both Pakistan and Bangladesh serves only to reaffirm those convictions.

MohammadMufti
22-03-2010, 11:15 AM
Adding insult to injury is the fact that neither of these two nations ever got anywhere close to fulfilling the empty promises of providing a proper Islamic state.

You can put a well in a village to quench people's thirst but will you be guilty if somebody else poisons it? What happened afterward isn't an inherent fault of Pakistan's existence.


I still believe that the Ulama who disagreed with the creation of Pakistan were blessed with the correct foresight, because then Muslims in India would've had at least a 25% majority instead of the measly 12% they are now and would have had major political power over the governance of the nation.

Akhi, if those ulema had the correct foresight than they would've thrown their cards in with Pakistan and encouraged hijrah. By speaking against it, they held back a considerable number of people from migrating when Pakistan inevitably came into existence and that hasn't benefited anybody in our present whatsoever. That 12% need not have been needlessly a minority and the religious amongst them could've supported Pakistan's being maintained as an Islamic republic instead of helping (by their non-presence) it become what it is. If they had put aside their reservations, and if only for the sake of unity, supported their peers who believed in Pakistan, than it's possible that neither would their descendants be suffering in India as you describe them and Pakistan would've actually become an Islamic state. The Muslim League didn't envision the complete lack of support, in fact, vehement opposition, from certain quarters when they were making their ideas into reality.

I don't intend to blame any of our ulema for their differences in ijtihad - it's just that two can play at that game. We have what we have, we should work with it. The lesson to take back from history isn't whether or not Pakistan was such a good idea, but what our lack of solidarity from the most responsible of us did with this good/bad idea by making it worse. We would be better off suffering as a 25% minority in India or as a foundling nation, if only we stuck together in either of them.

Adeel bin Minhaj
22-03-2010, 11:58 AM
I think Jawed bhai said it best, if such great Ulama has respectful words for Jinnah then we should also or not speak at all. Everything is between Allah and him.

In terms of Pakistan's creation, we should forget the past, and worry about the present situation and how we can make it better etc.

So back to the topic, can anyone elaborate on the women's "aggressive" role that was portrayed. Are women not allowed to carry sticks and protest when they have exhausted other non violent means?

المفكّر
22-03-2010, 12:33 PM
You can put a well in a village to quench people's thirst but will you be guilty if somebody else poisons it? What happened afterward isn't an inherent fault of Pakistan's existence.

Only in this case, I believe that the well was never intended to quench anyone's thirst to begin with. It is irrelevant then whether somebody poisons it or not. May Allah :taala: guide me if I am mistaken, but throughout its brief existence, I haven't seen Pakistan nor Bangladesh ever properly live up to the claims it was founded on.


Akhi, if those ulema had the correct foresight than they would've thrown their cards in with Pakistan and encouraged hijrah. By speaking against it, they held back a considerable number of people from migrating when Pakistan inevitably came into existence and that hasn't benefited anybody in our present whatsoever. That 12% need not have been needlessly a minority and the religious amongst them could've supported Pakistan's being maintained as an Islamic republic instead of helping (by their non-presence) it become what it is. If they had put aside their reservations, and if only for the sake of unity, supported their peers who believed in Pakistan, than it's possible that neither would their descendants be suffering in India as you describe them and Pakistan would've actually become an Islamic state. The Muslim League didn't envision the complete lack of support, in fact, vehement opposition, from certain quarters when they were making their ideas into reality.

And that was their mistake. Their wrong assumption that making hijrah is an easy thing when it's not, especially when one is not living under hostile conditions and oppression. The scholars and the religious people can make huge sacrifices but the layman cannot. You try to convince a random Muslim on the street anywhere in the world to completely leave his livelihood, the place he calls home and the people he knows, pack up all his bags and go to someplace new starting a new life from scratch all over again for the simple sake of 'unity' and chances are you won't exactly get a positive response. India was a vast country in geographical terms and it was utterly unrealistic to demand that people leave one corner of the country and go to another. There is reason why the demographic of Pakistan consists primarily of Muslims who trace their ancestry from the Northern part of India and Bangladeshi Muslims from the Eastern part.

And then there are sentimental reasons. Muslims ruled India for 700 years and left an indelible mark on the country in the form of shrines, masajid, historical relics and cultural treasures. Even if there are no material reasons, surely one has to expect that the masses would have some sort of attachment to the legacy of their ancestors. Not to mention such a massive division of Muslims only emboldened the kuffaar and gave them ammunition to spark conflict by playing on nationalist sentiments even within the moderates to promote their ultimate agenda to ethnically cleanse India from 'Babur ki awlaad'. Perhaps this is one of the hikmah of Allah :taala: with regard to Muslims who stayed back in India. Keeping in mind the campaign of Hindu hardliners to alter history books to erase or defame the chapter of Muslim rule over India, you think the Muslim cultural heritage throughout the country would've been safe had we all just packed up and left?


I don't intend to blame any of our ulema for their differences in ijtihad - it's just that two can play at that game. We have what we have, we should work with it. The lesson to take back from history isn't whether or not Pakistan was such a good idea, but what our lack of solidarity from the most responsible of us did with this good/bad idea by making it worse. We would be better off suffering as a 25% minority in India or as a foundling nation, if only we stuck together in either of them.

I agree with you here, brother, but I also I think it can't be argued that it would've been a heck a lot easier had we stuck together in India. 25% may sound like a minority but in political terms it is an Earth shattering statistic, especially if you consider the fact that despite their religious differences, the Muslim vote bank in India acts as a single block rather than a dispersed demographic. It is why you see political parties (aside from hardline Hindu nationalists of course) in India pandering so much to Muslims and minorities come election year, even if it is actually nothing more than lip service.

But then again like you said, what's done is done and there is no point in arguing over spilled milk (or blood, in this case). But helplessness and misery in the present often forces one to look at the past and ponder in reflection over what crime was committed to deserve such punishment. I hope we see Allah :taala:'s wisdom in decreeing this fate for the Muslim Ummah. I'm sure considering The Almighty's grand plan, it is for the best and pray for the day when our hearts are relieved from this unbearably heavy burden of guilt and regret.

London786
22-03-2010, 01:19 PM
having been to pakistan and india I would say that inshallah in the future there are great things for pakistan inshallah. In India muslims are treated as 2nd class citizens and they are the new untouchables. Anyone who says that in india muslims have equal rights is seriously joking. I remember my first incident at Mumbai airport when I was young and from that day on it became obvious that we are strangers in this so-called homeland of ours. Obviously this varies from place to place. I'm assuming that the muslims in hyderabad are treated well as they make up the majority but this is definitely not the case in Gujrat. In all public sector jobs muslims are descriminated against. They call it the land of the world's biggest democracy but its all a joke. They also have close relations with Israel. With regards to pakistan its had the worst rulers that a person can imagine except general zia ul haq. Anyone who listens to General Zia would think that its an alim speaking mashallah.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
22-03-2010, 01:42 PM
having been to pakistan and india I would say that inshallah in the future there are great things for pakistan inshallah. In India muslims are treated as 2nd class citizens and they are the new untouchables. Anyone who says that in india muslims have equal rights is seriously joking. I remember my first incident at Mumbai airport when I was young and from that day on it became obvious that we are strangers in this so-called homeland of ours. Obviously this varies from place to place. I'm assuming that the muslims in hyderabad are treated well as they make up the majority but this is definitely not the case in Gujrat. In all public sector jobs muslims are descriminated against. They call it the land of the world's biggest democracy but its all a joke. They also have close relations with Israel. With regards to pakistan its had the worst rulers that a person can imagine except general zia ul haq. Anyone who listens to General Zia would think that its an alim speaking mashallah.

you got to be kidding? why do you say that??

London786
22-03-2010, 01:46 PM
I will inshallah post a speech given by general zia ul haq shaheed. I'm not saying he was perfect but by far the best pakistan had

المفكّر
22-03-2010, 01:51 PM
I'm not saying he was perfect but by far the best pakistan had

...which isn't saying much considering the competition. :D

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
22-03-2010, 01:52 PM
President General Ziaul Haq will be deleted from Pakistan’s constitutional history when the 18th Amendment, to be moved in parliament in a few days, is passed.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27911

:D

saqfu
22-03-2010, 02:04 PM
having been to pakistan and india I would say that inshallah in the future there are great things for pakistan inshallah. In India muslims are treated as 2nd class citizens and they are the new untouchables. Anyone who says that in india muslims have equal rights is seriously joking. I remember my first incident at Mumbai airport when I was young and from that day on it became obvious that we are strangers in this so-called homeland of ours. Obviously this varies from place to place. I'm assuming that the muslims in hyderabad are treated well as they make up the majority but this is definitely not the case in Gujrat. In all public sector jobs muslims are descriminated against. They call it the land of the world's biggest democracy but its all a joke. They also have close relations with Israel. With regards to pakistan its had the worst rulers that a person can imagine except general zia ul haq. Anyone who listens to General Zia would think that its an alim speaking mashallah.

london 786 the people with kashf tell us that only 3 pakistan leaders died with iman and are not in punishments in their grave one of them is general zia ul haq

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
22-03-2010, 02:04 PM
london 786 the people with kashf tell us that only 3 pakistan leaders died with iman and are not in punishments in their grave one of them is general zia ul haq

the other 2?

saqfu
22-03-2010, 02:07 PM
the other 2?

alama iqbal and i think a person called shah faisal

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
22-03-2010, 02:20 PM
alama iqbal and i think a person called shah faisal

never heard of Shah Faisal

Colonel_Hardstone
22-03-2010, 02:23 PM
I will inshallah post a speech given by general zia ul haq shaheed. I'm not saying he was perfect but by far the best pakistan had

:ws:

As previously answered to you in another thread which perhaps you didn't read...

General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) was made Commander-in-Chief by forcibly retiring “several competent and able Generals” of Pakistan Army INCLUDING General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (RA) (DG ISI who actually plotted and defeated the Russian Army in Afghanistan).

The genius and Islam of General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (RA) was/is never been in doubt and he proved his military genius spectacularly against the Russians by grinding them down and eventually have them kicked out.

The Islam of General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (RA) was/is has never been in doubt because he is ONE OF THE ONLY generals who:

a) Never drank/party’ed
b) Never had a scandal from childhood till death
c) Never missed their prayers
d) Even though made Junior to General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) swallowed his pride and served him ably in Afghan Jihad (i.e. didn’t make ego an issue).

So why was General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) preferred over General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (RA)?

Because of his APPEASING history:

1) Brigadier Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) was deployed in Jordan when he opened FIRED and KILLED on PRO-PALESTINIANS (Army and Civilians) on Black-September (16th of September) . This was HIS ONLY SHOT at Fame and he executed it beautifully and it sent the message that this man would do anything to prove his loyalty:

a. He had no business commanding Jordanian Army while part of Pakistan Army BUT Jordanian Government trusted him to SHOT PALESTINIANS instead of their generals and he complied

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/01/role-of-general-zia-ul-haq-in-events-of.html

2) When Zulfiqar Bhutto was looking for a Commander-in-Chief he met Brigadier Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) who shook his hands and said, “Sir, I will stay loyal to you no matter what” Zulfiqar Bhutto retired Senior Generals and hand-picked a Junior/incompetent/ APPEASING…Also don’t forget that the Americans also had no issues with him i.e. Henry Kissinger (Jew) to be exact…

As far as Islam and achievements of General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) is concerned, then consider this:

a) Ulama of Pakistan HAD UNITED and launched “Nimaz-e-Shariat” movement and General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) actually destroyed it by promising Shariah (which he never delivered) BUT he did take concrete steps due to public pressure. IF “Nimaz-e-Shariat” movement was allowed to continue Pakistan would have bee a different country today

b) The credit for Afghan Jihad goes to General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (RA) he planned it and General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) REFUSED TO BELIEVE HIM at first (its public knowledge) BUT later on agreed and supported him.

General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) was an incompetent soldier with no noteworthy combat experience in the British (Indian) Army or Pakistan Army so he couldn’t possibly achieve anything in Afghanistan.

His noteworthy achievement is commanding Jordanian Army and KILLING PALESTINIANS.

He has now passed away but let’s not make him a martyr. Ulama have good opinion of him BECAUSE he did make some good Islamic reforms but look at the whole picture and public pressure which caused him to do what he did.

P.S: I have nothing against General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) and he has passed away but I am trying to make you see history as it occured rather then how its reported. My family was part of Civilian and Pakistan Army so I know all of this is true. The Army was actually shocked when he was made Commander-In-Chief because he was realy incomptent! I have actually read the glowing words and praises of Shaykh Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) and other Ulama about General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA)

Adeel bin Minhaj
22-03-2010, 03:18 PM
wow Colonel sahab, I need to meet you InshaAllah and hang out. When are you coming to NY again? lol

Colonel_Hardstone
22-03-2010, 03:21 PM
wow Colonel sahab, I need to meet you InshaAllah and hang out. When are you coming to NY again? lol

:ws:

Its funny how people who praise Ziaul-Haq (RA)'s Islam never discuss his history in British Army and Pakistan Army BEFORE 1977! Why judge him POST-1977?

Lets evaluate his Islam throughout his life...

Ziaul-Haq's Islamic achievements were/due to significant pressure from Ulama of Deoband & Jamaat-e-Islami. Don't forget Mufti Mahmood (RA) and Aalami Khatm-e-Nabuwwat and intense pressure from.

People have short-term memories....

http://www.gowanusbooks.com/party.htm

Basically Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto admitted to drinking in public (he thought it was a small matter) Ulama had galvanised Pakistanees on an Islamic platform against Qadiyanees and for Islamisation...

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto miscalculated the emotions of people of Pakistan and paid for it with his life.

General Ziaul-Haq promised Shariah and therefore Islamic movement was disbanded!

WHAT A COLOSSAL MISTAKE BY ULAMA IN TRUSTING THIS GUY!

General Ziaul-Haq actually mixed Soda & Whiskey for Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto during their meeting and thats also public record!

Adeel bin Minhaj
22-03-2010, 03:38 PM
Basically Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto admitted to drinking in public (he thought it was a small matter) Ulama had galvanised Pakistanees on an Islamic platform against Qadiyanees and for Islamisation...

....

General Ziaul-Haq actually mixed Soda & Whiskey for Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto during their meeting and thats also public record!


:hawla:

xs11ax
22-03-2010, 04:33 PM
salaam

i was told by one of the groups of the naqshbandi owaisi people that general zia ul haq used to sit in the company of and take mashwera from their shaikh akram awan.

Colonel_Hardstone
22-03-2010, 04:44 PM
salaam

i was told by the one group of the naqshbandi owaisi people that general zia ul haq used to sit in the company of and take mashwera from their shaikh akram awan.

:ws:

I went to School and grew up in Islamabad during Ziaul-Haq's time. I do have some recollection of the event when thefamous Liquor Shop in Super-Market was demolished due to Islam , I was a little boy but I do remember because I asked my dad why are people breaking these coloured bottles :-) :-) :-)

I remember that everybody started praying Salah all of a sudden, due to Islam .

I remember that all the women starting partially covering their head of a sudden, due to Islam .

I remember Afghan Jihad and saw little Muslim kids with body parts missing, due to Islam .

I also remember learning about Prostitutes, drugs and P ORN movies because we (Pakistanees) knew nothing about it before the Afghans came to us.

:-) I do remember coming home and asking my Sister and my Mother about Blue-Print (P ORN) movies and what they were! :-) Since they didn't really know I never got punished

I remember getting my little Auto-graph book signed by General Ziaul-Haq I have narrated the incident in another thread

I remember Madrasas/Masajid spring up in every nook and corner

I remember as a little boy that PIA stopped serving coloured liquid to older people but I still got my Toffees so thats all I cared about...:-) :-) :-)

So a lot of good/bad things happened but I will tell you the stories when we meet and my sources.

xs11ax
22-03-2010, 04:52 PM
:ws:

I went to School and grew up in Islamabad during Ziaul-Haq's time. I do have some recollection of the event when thefamous Liquor Shop in Super-Market was demolished due to Islam , I was a little boy but I do remember because I asked my dad why are people breaking these coloured bottles :-) :-) :-)

I remember that everybody started praying Salah all of a sudden, due to Islam .

I remember that all the women starting partially covering their head of a sudden, due to Islam .

I remember Afghan Jihad and saw little Muslim kids with body parts missing, due to Islam .

I also remember learning about Prostitutes, drugs and P ORN movies because we (Pakistanees) knew nothing about it before the Afghans came to us.

:-) I do remember coming home and asking my Sister and my Mother about Blue-Print (P ORN) movies and what they were! :-) Since they didn't really know I never got punished

I remember getting my little Auto-graph book signed by General Ziaul-Haq I have narrated the incident in another thread

I remember Madrasas/Masajid spring up in every nook and corner

I remember as a little boy that PIA stopped serving coloured liquid to older people but I still got my Toffees so thats all I cared about...:-) :-) :-)

So a lot of good/bad things happened but I will tell you the stories when we meet and my sources.


did he have any connections with the owaisi's?

Colonel_Hardstone
22-03-2010, 04:54 PM
did he have any connections with the owaisi's?
No Clue...

seeker_ikb
22-03-2010, 09:28 PM
:ws:

.

P.S: I have nothing against General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA) and he has passed away but I am trying to make you see history as it occured rather then how its reported. My family was part of Civilian and Pakistan Army so I know all of this is true. The Army was actually shocked when he was made Commander-In-Chief because he was realy incomptent! I have actually read the glowing words and praises of Shaykh Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) and other Ulama about General Mohammed Ziaul-Haq (RA)

Would you please give us a reference in support of your claim about Shaykh Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi ( RAH ) ?

Regarding Lal masjid massacre ,I read somewhere that the leader of the Jamia Hafsa had strong ties with ISI for many years. His friends in ISI should have informed him of the Musharraf's plan for massacre. But , it looks like he was betrayed !!!

saqfu
22-03-2010, 09:39 PM
did he have any connections with the owaisi's?

yes he did take mashwera from akram awan. rememebr akram awan olny went astray in the 90s back in the 80s he was on the right path

saqfu
22-03-2010, 09:40 PM
never heard of Shah Faisal

well then i cant remember the third person. except for these 3 everyone else has died on kuffar including jinnah

saqfu
22-03-2010, 09:43 PM
colnel hardstone i must tell u that people with kashf say that general zia ul haq is in najaat in his grave. the reason why allah has forgiven him is because of the stance he took in regards to the afghan jihad. so why diss him?

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
22-03-2010, 10:20 PM
colnel hardstone i must tell u that people with kashf say that general zia ul haq is in najaat in his grave. the reason why allah has forgiven him is because of the stance he took in regards to the afghan jihad. so why diss him?

so what do they say about Sh Ahmad Rada Khan?

and how much punishment is Mirza Ghulam Qadiani receiving?

seeker_ikb
22-03-2010, 11:31 PM
I think Jawed bhai said it best, if such great Ulama has respectful words for Jinnah then we should also or not speak at all. Everything is between Allah and him.

In terms of Pakistan's creation, we should forget the past, and worry about the present situation and how we can make it better etc.



We should analyze the past in order to learn lessons which will help us avoid the same mistakes done by the ancestors.

Regarding Zinnah and some other leaders , I think, the prophesy of Hazrat Neamtullah ( RAH ) as mentioned in the page 20 of the following book is applicable.


http://www.sendspace.com/file/v0no7n

According to the prophesy , the so called Muslim leaders will have a secret alliance with the enemies of Islam !!!

xs11ax
22-03-2010, 11:37 PM
According to the prophesy , the so called Muslim leaders will have a secret alliance with the enemies of Islam !!!

thats most world leaders isnt it?

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
23-03-2010, 01:01 AM
Bro, where in sunnah do you see the Prophet changing the names of people to Zinnah and other such nasty labels?

saqfu
23-03-2010, 01:42 AM
We should analyze the past in order to learn lessons which will help us avoid the same mistakes done by the ancestors.

Regarding Zinnah and some other leaders , I think, the prophesy of Hazrat Neamtullah ( RAH ) as mentioned in the page 20 of the following book is applicable.


http://www.sendspace.com/file/v0no7n

According to the prophesy , the so called Muslim leaders will have a secret alliance with the enemies of Islam !!!

i got this book at home!

saqfu
23-03-2010, 01:48 AM
so what do they say about Sh Ahmad Rada Khan?

and how much punishment is Mirza Ghulam Qadiani receiving?

according to people with kashf mirza qadiani is in severe punishments but one of the punishments he is getting is that when his followers read darood they angles fire an arrow made of fire at him, so there is a shower of arrows constantly hitting him.

as with ahmad raza khan there is no real difference in punishment with him and qadyani

seeker_ikb
23-03-2010, 07:18 AM
:


There is no doubt that PAK-ARMY used white phosphorus and other deadly weapons against children who were engaged in learning the Deen of Allah (SWT) and their bodies were disfigured and a lot of times unidentifiable.





The whole issue of independence of Pakistan in 1947 seems to be a big show. Just check what Robert Fist says about
his recent trip to Pakistan.

---------------

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisks-world-as-things-get-worse-in-pakistan-the-optimism-continues-to-soar-1924375.html


I couldn't help noticing that the street where the bombs exploded is in the RA Barracks area of Lahore – and it took a time before I discovered that RA stands for Royal Artillery. Yes, our imperial ghosts continue to stalk this place while America's more recent empire ensures that its people suffer as they did under the Raj. Will freedom at midnight never come

----------------

This is 2010 and still you can see " Royaaaaaaaalllll !!

The Lal-Masjid massacre is just another proof of this "independence ". The good ulema who supported Pakistan with high hope seem to be cleverly exploited by the Imperialists and their puppets. They have used the reputation of those Ulema tactfully to sell their agenda to the public while maintaing a steady stream of false promises to keep the Ulema happy.

What an art of manipulation !!

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
24-03-2010, 07:44 AM
:salam:

is it true Zia-ul-Haq made alcohol halal during his time?

arius
24-03-2010, 10:22 AM
as with ahmad raza khan there is no real difference in punishment with him and qadyaniWhat is this nonsense? On the other side, I have heard that some people claim to have seen in kashf that Maudoodi's face has been turned into the face of some animal after death as punishment

arius
24-03-2010, 10:32 AM
The founder of welfare organization Darul Ehsan,Hazrat Sufi Barkat Ali Ludhianvi (Rahmatullah aliah) (d.1996), who was a great Waliullah (although rejected by some extremist Barevlis for his Deobandi leanings), used to say that a day would come when the UN would consult Pakistan in world affairs. Pakistan is the symbol of a potentially explosive pan-Islamic movement. It is no coincidence that the West is so concerned about Pakistan--the Satan has warned his friends as to the significance of Pakistan Movement.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
24-03-2010, 11:08 AM
What is this nonsense? On the other side, I have heard that some people claim to have seen in kashf that Maudoodi's face has been turned into the face of some animal after death as punishment

seriously, i don't believe him either. Allahu alam.

maneatinglizard
24-03-2010, 12:47 PM
:salam:

What did Ahmad Raza Khan do that was good for our Ummah?

Lie about the Ulema of Deoband?

Speak about Allah :taala: in disrespectful terms?

Write a translation of the Quran that claims to be more respectful than others by distorting the original words? He thinks putting Allah as the first word in his translation of Bismillah is more respectful, even though the actual words of the Quran aren't like this!

What about twisting around rulings to make it appear as if Adhan at a grave is a praiseworthy action?

Or maybe demotivating the Muslims of India from Jihad?

Seriously, I'd love it if a brother can mention one good thing Ahmad Raza Khan did for the Ummah. And nothing about Halwa, please.

:jazak:

caravan of martyrs
24-03-2010, 01:18 PM
:salam:

What did Ahmad Raza Khan do that was good for our Ummah?

Lie about the Ulema of Deoband?

Speak about Allah :taala: in disrespectful terms?

Write a translation of the Quran that claims to be more respectful than others by distorting the original words? He thinks putting Allah as the first word in his translation of Bismillah is more respectful, even though the actual words of the Quran aren't like this!

What about twisting around rulings to make it appear as if Adhan at a grave is a praiseworthy action?

Or maybe demotivating the Muslims of India from Jihad?

Seriously, I'd love it if a brother can mention one good thing Ahmad Raza Khan did for the Ummah. And nothing about Halwa, please.

:jazak:


salaam


erm made it easier for us to spot the munafiqs like himself

xs11ax
24-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Seriously, I'd love it if a brother can mention one good thing Ahmad Raza Khan did for the Ummah. And nothing about Halwa, please.



die.....

am i going to get banned now :(

saqfu
24-03-2010, 07:38 PM
:salam:

is it true Zia-ul-Haq made alcohol halal during his time?

no he eradicated alcohol from pakistan, that is just one of his achievements

saqfu
24-03-2010, 07:41 PM
What is this nonsense? On the other side, I have heard that some people claim to have seen in kashf that Maudoodi's face has been turned into the face of some animal after death as punishment

yes i thought so the truth is hard to swallow for breywis like ur self. if u dont believe me why dont u find a person with kashf and they tell will also tell u the sad story of ahmad raza khan. i grew up with people with kashf , i know information about what is happening in graves for even people like princess diana and sadam hussein

a_muslim
24-03-2010, 10:49 PM
yes i thought so the truth is hard to swallow for breywis like ur self. if u dont believe me why dont u find a person with kashf and they tell will also tell u the sad story of ahmad raza khan. i grew up with people with kashf , i know information about what is happening in graves for even people like princess diana and sadam hussein

:salam:
What on (under) earth are those 2 upto then?


Brother, since your quite interested in kashf, and you say you are deobandi (well you're not barelwi), i suggest you read this article written by Mufti Muhammad Taqi Uthmani in Discourses on Islamic way of Life:

http://darulislam.info/Sections-article117-p1.html

Below are some excerpts:

If someone by chance has "Kashf, the common people think that the man is a great saint, even though this man may not be following the path of the Sunnah during his waking hours. Bear in mind that the criterion of a man's superiority and righteousness does not lie in dreams and "Kashf. The real criterion for this depends on whether or not a man's living is according to the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saws). If a man's living during his waking hours is not according to the Sunnah, if he is not refraining from sins, nor is he obeying Allah, he is not a righteous person, whatever the numbers of supernatural feats displayed at his hands. Nowadays people have become awfully misguided in this matter. This display of miraculous or supernatural feats is considered an inseparable part of the mystic system of spiritual education and training. Ignorant men are always hankering after true dreams, disclosure of hidden secrets (Kashf) and supernatural performances.

And also:

Injunctions of the Shari ah about Dreams and 'Kashf” etc.
It requires a great courage of conviction to say: I take all responsibilities for sins, if any, invovled in this judgment.. Allah, however, sends such brave and dauntless souls for the protection of His Deen. If it is accepted even once that the injunctions of the Shari 'ah can be changed through dreams, then the Shari ah would go with the wind in no time. How many ignorant "Pirs" (guides) and "Professors" there are who claim miracles! The term "Kashf means bringing to light hidden secrets by spiritual insight, but its authenticity is not recognized in the Shari 'ah. So, the rules of the Shari ah cannot be replaced or amended through these processes.

And also:

Hazrat Maulana Thanawi (rah); has said that Kashf is a phonomenon which is sometime seen from madness and even infidels.

SORRY FOR BEING OFF-TOPIC!

Colonel_Hardstone
25-03-2010, 12:27 AM
Would you please give us a reference in support of your claim about Shaykh Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi ( RAH ) ?

Regarding Lal masjid massacre ,I read somewhere that the leader of the Jamia Hafsa had strong ties with ISI for many years. His friends in ISI should have informed him of the Musharraf's plan for massacre. But , it looks like he was betrayed !!!

:ws:


Shaykh Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) has written a three (3) volume book called "Puranay Sharagh (Golden Lamps)" and he praises General Ziaul-Haq (RA) in there.

I am in US so can't quote the exact volume at the moment

Adeel bin Minhaj
25-03-2010, 02:51 AM
:ws:


Shaykh Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) has written a three (3) volume book called "Puranay Sharagh (Golden Lamps)" and he praises General Ziaul-Haq (RA) in there.

I am in US so can't quote the exact volume at the moment

:salam:

Where in the US?

arius
25-03-2010, 05:01 AM
Pakistan is the only Muslim nation in the world built not on the basis of a common ethnicity or language but on the basis of a common religion,i.e. Islam. This is why one of the slogans of Muslim League's 1946 election campaign was "Pakistan ka matlab kya (what is the meaning of Pakistan?) --La-Ilaha Il-Allah. That was why the newly built capital of Pakistan (built in 1960) was named Islamabad. It is an altogether different matter that some Munafiqs have turned Islamabad into a spiritually-suffocating Nifaq-Barbad by policies like the Lal Masjid operation and the ruthless suppression of the so-called Taliban (the only thing that can be confirmed about a majority of whom is that they are Pakistani citizens). Pakistan is being bled to death --both ideologically and physically --by the anti-Islam Munafiq-traitors from within.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
25-03-2010, 11:27 AM
Yes br. To all those badmouthing Pakistan, please look where you live, where you come from. Millions have died for a hope of a Muslim only state. Now forget the past and try to encourage a Muslim state rather than discourage it. By not supporting it, you're supporting the kuffar, be they Hindus/Sikhs who murdered and raped our mothers and daughters or be they Jews/Christians who are murdering our Muslim families all over the world. Have some shame.

MohammadMufti
25-03-2010, 11:56 AM
yes i thought so the truth is hard to swallow for breywis like ur self. if u dont believe me why dont u find a person with kashf and they tell will also tell u the sad story of ahmad raza khan. i grew up with people with kashf , i know information about what is happening in graves for even people like princess diana and sadam hussein

I don't think it's a Barelwi thing, I find it hard to believe as well though I can't say I've actually met anybody who claims it on a recurrent basis, I'm skeptical even of the one-timers...

maneatinglizard
26-03-2010, 08:22 PM
Naudhu-Billah. This sectarian approach is another major hurdle in the realisation of the dream of pan-Islamism.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide me with one service to the Deen which Ahmad Raza Khan has provided.

Maybe we could ask GF Haddad, since he considers anyone who doesn't recognize his greatness a nincompoop who should wear a dunce hat.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
26-03-2010, 11:40 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to provide me with one service to the Deen which Ahmad Raza Khan has provided.

Maybe we could ask GF Haddad, since he considers anyone who doesn't recognize his greatness a nincompoop who should wear a dunce hat.

really, and what have u done?

maneatinglizard
27-03-2010, 05:43 AM
really, and what have u done?

:salam:

Well, since my followers don't call me "Ala Hazrat," a Mujaddid, and say :anhu: for me as if I was a Sahabi, I don't think it is very relevant to the discussion. In fact, since I've never told anyone to hold fast to my ways, what I've done doesn't matter as much what Ahmad Raza Khan did (or didn't) do.

Besides that, attempting to divert the discussion towards me will not help in finding praiseworthy things Ahmad Raza Khan did. You should work on that.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
27-03-2010, 05:32 PM
:salam:

Well, since my followers don't call me "Ala Hazrat," a Mujaddid, and say :anhu: for me as if I was a Sahabi, I don't think it is very relevant to the discussion. In fact, since I've never told anyone to hold fast to my ways, what I've done doesn't matter as much what Ahmad Raza Khan did (or didn't) do.

Besides that, attempting to divert the discussion towards me will not help in finding praiseworthy things Ahmad Raza Khan did. You should work on that.

I'm in no way trying to praise him but at the same time nor am I bringing him down like people in this thread are doing.

arius
01-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Some Lal Masjid survivors said that the days of Lal Masjid operation were the most physically difficult yet most spiritually blissful days of their lives; on the other hand some officials who opened fire on them were reported to have given statements about their spiritually miserable condition and restlessness since the tragedy

muminah
01-04-2010, 07:58 PM
Rageh Omar did a documentary for Al Jazeerah on Lal Masjid - its a good watch.

student of deen
03-04-2010, 01:20 PM
:salam:
i was in pakistan while the whole jamia fareeiyah, jamia hafsa and lal masjid thing happened. first of all only a few select ulema were allowed to enter the majid, of whom were maulana saleem ullah khan maulana abdur razaq sikander maulana haneef jalandari and sheikhain(mufti taqi usmani and mufti rafi usmani). iv listened to maulana haneef jalandari's and maulana abdur razaq sikander's biyaans on the episode and they both say the same thing over.
busharraf wanted to knock down roughly 86 masaajid in and around islamabad because these masaajid were in the way and it would be easy for these cities to be 'talibanised'. they knocked down about 6-8 masaajid and then they came across lal masjid and jamia hafsa, they were after lal masjid but jamia hafsa is connected to it, theres only a 10-12 foot high wall all around segragating the 2. the women immidiatly took over a neighboring library in protest because its there madrassah. eventually in july the government surrounded the seminary and tried negotiating. maulana saleemullah khan was the go between and after taking off his turban and putting it between the feet of maulana abdulaziz he convinced him to give in. the government said to him to come out and they would drive him to his village and give the madrassah to wifaq ul madaris, everyone agreed. the government told maulana abdul aziz ghazi DB to come out amongst women and wear a veil so media wouldnt recognise him and interfere.when he came out they grabbed him and went against there word and immidiatly imprisoned him. then they tried negotiating with abdul rasheed ghazi and he refused to negotiate as they went back on their word, eventually after talks abdur rasheed ghazi said do what you want with me but release umme hassaan(maulana abdul aziz's wife and head of jamia hafsa) and my mother, everyone agreed again and wifaq had a bigger hand in this time as the government went back on their word earlier, after abdur rasheed ghazi RA signed the conditions the governments go between said wait here and we will be back in 20 mins after we get the contract signed by busharraf. wifaq started discussing who should take over the jamia and started making biryani for people as outside jamia families of students were there hungry and worried.instead of taking 20 mins they took 2 and a half hours and the whole contract changed to say were going ahead with our operation, thats when they started bombing the madrassah. an agreement was reached twice and twice they went back on it.
noone had the intention to resolve the matter peacefully other than the ulema and students. maulana abdur razaq sikander is vice president of wifaq and senior sheikh ul hadeeth of jamia binnori town in karachi. every year 600 ulema graduate from there as his bukhari students, he said with his own mouth that they burned little kids alive and opened fire upon unarmed students. thats enough for me to accept that it happened. no point debating with pakistan's mal'oon army.
:salam:

True Life
03-04-2010, 01:53 PM
:salam:

Is the speech by Hadhrat Maulana Abdur Razaq Sikander available online?

student of deen
03-04-2010, 02:00 PM
:salam:
i dont know, i heard it live at the khatam e bukhari of that year. look for binnori town khatam e bukhari for 2007.

curious-traveller
03-04-2010, 07:11 PM
:salam:
i was in pakistan while the whole jamia fareeiyah, jamia hafsa and lal masjid thing happened. first of all only a few select ulema were allowed to enter the majid, of whom were maulana saleem ullah khan maulana abdur razaq sikander maulana haneef jalandari and sheikhain(mufti taqi usmani and mufti rafi usmani). iv listened to maulana haneef jalandari's and maulana abdur razaq sikander's biyaans on the episode and they both say the same thing over.
busharraf wanted to knock down roughly 86 masaajid in and around islamabad because these masaajid were in the way and it would be easy for these cities to be 'talibanised'. they knocked down about 6-8 masaajid and then they came across lal masjid and jamia hafsa, they were after lal masjid but jamia hafsa is connected to it, theres only a 10-12 foot high wall all around segragating the 2. the women immidiatly took over a neighboring library in protest because its there madrassah. eventually in july the government surrounded the seminary and tried negotiating. maulana saleemullah khan was the go between and after taking off his turban and putting it between the feet of maulana abdulaziz he convinced him to give in. the government said to him to come out and they would drive him to his village and give the madrassah to wifaq ul madaris, everyone agreed. the government told maulana abdul aziz ghazi DB to come out amongst women and wear a veil so media wouldnt recognise him and interfere.when he came out they grabbed him and went against there word and immidiatly imprisoned him. then they tried negotiating with abdul rasheed ghazi and he refused to negotiate as they went back on their word, eventually after talks abdur rasheed ghazi said do what you want with me but release umme hassaan(maulana abdul aziz's wife and head of jamia hafsa) and my mother, everyone agreed again and wifaq had a bigger hand in this time as the government went back on their word earlier, after abdur rasheed ghazi RA signed the conditions the governments go between said wait here and we will be back in 20 mins after we get the contract signed by busharraf. wifaq started discussing who should take over the jamia and started making biryani for people as outside jamia families of students were there hungry and worried.instead of taking 20 mins they took 2 and a half hours and the whole contract changed to say were going ahead with our operation, thats when they started bombing the madrassah. an agreement was reached twice and twice they went back on it.
noone had the intention to resolve the matter peacefully other than the ulema and students. maulana abdur razaq sikander is vice president of wifaq and senior sheikh ul hadeeth of jamia binnori town in karachi. every year 600 ulema graduate from there as his bukhari students, he said with his own mouth that they burned little kids alive and opened fire upon unarmed students. thats enough for me to accept that it happened. no point debating with pakistan's mal'oon army.
:salam:

You Pakistanis have not yet seen the brutality of an army yet. This Lal Masjid massacre is much smaller than Hama massacre.

Check the following link.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Estimates of casualties vary from an estimated 7,000 to 35,000 people killed, including about 1,000 soldiers.[1] Robert Fisk, who was in Hama shortly after the massacre, estimated fatalities as high as 10,000.[10] The Independent estimates death toll as up to 20,000.[11] According to Thomas Friedman Rifaat later boasted of killing 38,000 people.[12] Amnesty International initially estimated the death toll was between 10,000 and 25,000, the vast majority innocent civilians.[13]

Reports by the Syrian Human Rights Committee estimate "over 25,000"[14] or between 30,000 to 40,000 people were killed.

------------
So get your nerves strong enough to withstand the coming ....... !!!!!

Mathbooh
06-04-2010, 05:47 PM
:salam:

http://www.inkofscholars.com/inkofscholars.php?file=article.php&id=796

curious-traveller
06-04-2010, 10:12 PM
:salam:

http://www.inkofscholars.com/inkofscholars.php?file=article.php&id=796

Another link for the same article is shown below.

http://al-haq.themajlis.net/node/115

Who is the author of this article ?

marco100
06-04-2010, 10:28 PM
:salam:

http://www.inkofscholars.com/inkofscholars.php?file=article.php&id=796

:salam: brother

that article is full of wisdom which many brothers and sisters would do well to read and take on board.

sis samiyya
06-04-2010, 11:09 PM
:salam: brother

that article is full of wisdom which many brothers and sisters would do well to read and take on board.

The article argues that the right of women/girls is to be at home. It uses references from the saying of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) for this i have no objection against.
However it points out that girls should not attend madrassers either! Im confused how is one (sisters) suppose to acquire deen (knowledge) then? Please help me out im kinda not getting it!

marco100
06-04-2010, 11:26 PM
The article argues that the right of women/girls is to be at home. It uses references from the saying of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) for this i have no objection against.
However it points out that girls should not attend madrassers either! Im confused how is one (sisters) suppose to acquire deen (knowledge) then? Please help me out im kinda not getting it!

:salam:

I'm not a scholar so I can't comment on fiqh issues. However, I don't think the author is against women's education, but that of taking girls out of the arms of the mother into an institution, when they could learn what they needed; Islamic education just like they do in a madrassah, from their mothers who ought to be the best teachers. The article has to be taken into it's full context, such as when he/she mentions how women in Niqab were brandishing sticks in the streets which is unbecoming of a woman due to their inherent soft nature. The cause of this is due in a large part to taking the girl out of the arms of the mother, into an external medium such as a madrassah. That's how serious this issue becomes. I kind of get the jist of what they're saying in the article, but not being from Pakistan, I wouldn't be confident in my opinion. It's just what I understand reading the article.

There may also be a cultural basis to the article too, for example women and driving in Saudi has nothing to do with women across the world, just in that area where due to culture, Ulema there imposed a ban on women driving to avoid fitnah in that part of the world only. They know their people better than someone sitting in the UK or France who has no experience with the cultural norms in that country etc.

Allah SWT knows best.

sis samiyya
06-04-2010, 11:48 PM
:salam:

I'm not a scholar so I can't comment on fiqh issues. However, I don't think the author is against women's education, but that of taking girls out of the arms of the mother into an institution, when they could learn what they needed; Islamic education just like they do in a madrassah, from their mothers who ought to be the best teachers. The article has to be taken into it's full context, such as when he/she mentions how women in Niqab were brandishing sticks in the streets which is unbecoming of a woman due to their inherent soft nature. The cause of this is due in a large part to taking the girl out of the arms of the mother, into an external medium such as a madrassah. That's how serious this issue becomes. I kind of get the jist of what they're saying in the article, but not being from Pakistan, I wouldn't be confident in my opinion. It's just what I understand reading the article.

There may also be a cultural basis to the article too, for example women and driving in Saudi has nothing to do with women across the world, just in that area where due to culture, Ulema there imposed a ban on women driving to avoid fitnah in that part of the world only. They know their people better than someone sitting in the UK or France who has no experience with the cultural norms in that country etc.

Allah SWT knows best.
Jazakalllah khair, that kinda helps me make more sense of what the author intended however it is percieved differently when its read, esp perhaps by a female audiance.

SomeGuySeekingKnowledge
07-04-2010, 12:04 AM
:salam:

I'm not a scholar so I can't comment on fiqh issues. However, I don't think the author is against women's education, but that of taking girls out of the arms of the mother into an institution, when they could learn what they needed; Islamic education just like they do in a madrassah, from their mothers who ought to be the best teachers. The article has to be taken into it's full context, such as when he/she mentions how women in Niqab were brandishing sticks in the streets which is unbecoming of a woman due to their inherent soft nature. The cause of this is due in a large part to taking the girl out of the arms of the mother, into an external medium such as a madrassah. That's how serious this issue becomes. I kind of get the jist of what they're saying in the article, but not being from Pakistan, I wouldn't be confident in my opinion. It's just what I understand reading the article.

There may also be a cultural basis to the article too, for example women and driving in Saudi has nothing to do with women across the world, just in that area where due to culture, Ulema there imposed a ban on women driving to avoid fitnah in that part of the world only. They know their people better than someone sitting in the UK or France who has no experience with the cultural norms in that country etc.

Allah SWT knows best.


:salam:

I know there were good intentions by the author and mash'Allah, very well written. But there are some facts missing. For example, some of the girls studying there were orphans taken from the earthquake area. So they had no mothers to go back to anyway..

Mathbooh
07-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Another link for the same article is shown below.

http://al-haq.themajlis.net/node/115

Who is the author of this article ?

:salam:
The author of the article is Ml.A.S. Desai,who has two papers,The Majlis(shar'i issues e.t.c.) and Al-Haq(current affairs).
The author is against girls madrasahs,and believes that it is the duty of the parents and the male members of the family to educate the females(if i'm not mistaken).If i'm not mistaken,when girls madrasahs were being opened,he was fully against it,and was one of the Ulema or probably the only aalim that was openly against it,while other ulema were for it.Today,years later,we are seeing the effects and the hikmah of his teachings.Initially,it looked like a success.However,(mayb only in the circles I frequent) even Ulema don't want to send their daughter,fitnah is taking place,people don't want to get married to aalimah's e.t.c.
And Allah knows best

a_muslim
07-04-2010, 11:06 AM
:salam:
The author of the article is Ml.A.S. Desai,who has two papers,The Majlis(shar'i issues e.t.c.) and Al-Haq(current affairs).
The author is against girls madrasahs,and believes that it is the duty of the parents and the male members of the family to educate the females(if i'm not mistaken).If i'm not mistaken,when girls madrasahs were being opened,he was fully against it,and was one of the Ulema or probably the only aalim that was openly against it,while other ulema were for it.Today,years later,we are seeing the effects and the hikmah of his teachings.Initially,it looked like a success.However,(mayb only in the circles I frequent) even Ulema don't want to send their daughter,fitnah is taking place,people don't want to get married to aalimah's e.t.c.
And Allah knows best

:ws:

Are you referring to girls madrasahs in South Africa only or all over the world. Haven't there always been madrasahs for females in India/Pakistan.
I know an alim in England regarding whom I have heard that he is also against girls madrasahs.
And about fitnah I think that is true.

Abu_Bilal
07-04-2010, 11:16 AM
Assalam Alaikum.

This view was originally started from Mufti Rasheed Ahmad (RA). He was against women going to a madressah, for living and boarding purposes. He said that it has signs of fitnah. Many ulema agree with him.

However, if there is no chance of fitna, and a girl goes and lives in a madressah, then ulema have deemed it permissible.

DefendingIslam
07-04-2010, 11:55 AM
people don't want to get married to aalimah's

Why wouldn't a Muslim man want to marry a woman who is educated in Islam and its rules and regulations?

If it is because he is afraid that the woman will know her rights in Islam and not let him trample her, then shame on him. If it is for some other reason, then that reason has to be seen.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 12:10 PM
:salam:

I'm not a scholar so I can't comment on fiqh issues. However, I don't think the author is against women's education, but that of taking girls out of the arms of the mother into an institution, when they could learn what they needed; Islamic education just like they do in a madrassah, from their mothers who ought to be the best teachers. The article has to be taken into it's full context, such as when he/she mentions how women in Niqab were brandishing sticks in the streets which is unbecoming of a woman due to their inherent soft nature. The cause of this is due in a large part to taking the girl out of the arms of the mother, into an external medium such as a madrassah. That's how serious this issue becomes. I kind of get the jist of what they're saying in the article, but not being from Pakistan, I wouldn't be confident in my opinion. It's just what I understand reading the article.

There may also be a cultural basis to the article too, for example women and driving in Saudi has nothing to do with women across the world, just in that area where due to culture, Ulema there imposed a ban on women driving to avoid fitnah in that part of the world only. They know their people better than someone sitting in the UK or France who has no experience with the cultural norms in that country etc.

Allah SWT knows best.

:ws:

Last time I raised the issue of Girls' Darul-ulooms a particular Alimah went for my neck and to this day she still has to provide PROOF of a iinstitution in Islamic history where girls were lodged and boarded and they acquired Islamic education.

This is simply very strange phenomenon and the answer given to us is Ulama of Darul-uloom Bury have authorised this or that...

However, in Lal Masjid many of the students were orphans etc so I do see the point of it.


Assalam Alaikum.

This view was originally started from Mufti Rasheed Ahmad (RA). He was against women going to a madressah, for living and boarding purposes. He said that it has signs of fitnah. Many ulema agree with him.

However, if there is no chance of fitna, and a girl goes and lives in a madressah, then ulema have deemed it permissible.

:ws:

WHO and HOW does one make sure that there is chance of Fitnah?

xs11ax
07-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Why wouldn't a Muslim man want to marry a woman who is educated in Islam and its rules and regulations?

If it is because he is afraid that the woman will know her rights in Islam and not let him trample her, then shame on him. If it is for some other reason, then that reason has to be seen.

i have heard from a few different scholars that non alims should avoid marrying alimas.

reason given is that the alima may feel superior to her husband and this could cause problems in the home.

Mathbooh
07-04-2010, 12:34 PM
Why wouldn't a Muslim man want to marry a woman who is educated in Islam and its rules and regulations?

If it is because he is afraid that the woman will know her rights in Islam and not let him trample her, then shame on him. If it is for some other reason, then that reason has to be seen.

:salam:

IMHO:
there is skepticism due to the perceived turmoil and divorces experianced in marriages with aalimahs.amongst the complaints are akhlaq issues,negligence in domestic afairs e.t.c.(i'm not talkin about rights being trampled-basic issues like rearing the children)
are you suggesting that woman who are not aalimahs are being trempled upon?
I don't know about your part of the world,but in S.A.,at maktab level,girls and boys are taught what are their rights and responsibilities in the shariah and their are papers like the majlis e.t.c. that talk about it,and Mufti A.K. every monday speaks about it.Even from the mimbar the Ulama speak and we have transmitters e.t.c. that allow woman to be educated also.
As far as majlis being the only aalim against it,i meant in S.A.However,he is the only aalim I personally knew of that was against it.

And Allah knows best

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 12:37 PM
i have heard from a few different scholars that non alims should avoid marrying alimas.

reason given is that the alima may feel superior to her husband and this could cause problems in the home.

:ws:

I have also heard and discussed this matter with Ulama and I have been informed that many Alimahs have an "ego issue" by Ulama although no direct experience to verify.

BUT having travelled around and dealt with and trying to resolve Alimah issues in person and via emails it appears that there is something wrong with the system because many of them (I am not saying all) are seriously deficient in what they have learned and have no tactical or strategic view on how to go about imparting it. But Young Alims are also unexperienced when they first start out but through experience they learn and incorporate many good things.

I suppose Alimahs don't get many oppurtunites like their male counter-parts to learn and improve, perhaps?

You give some young girl a certificate and a title of a "Scholar" and then she reads the virtues of Ulamas I can see how it can get to someone's head...I have noticed the same with young female Soldiers give'em a gun and uniform and all of a sudden they think of themselves as a cut above the rest...

marco100
07-04-2010, 01:00 PM
:ws:

I have also heard and discussed this matter with Ulama and I have been informed that many Alimahs have an "ego issue" by Ulama although no direct experience to verify.

BUT having travelled around and dealt with and trying to resolve Alimah issues in person and via emails it appears that there is something wrong with the system because many of them (I am not saying all) are seriously deficient in what they have learned and have no tactical or strategic view on how to go about imparting it. But Young Alims are also unexperienced when they first start out but through experience they learn and incorporate many good things.

I suppose Alimahs don't get many oppurtunites like their male counter-parts to learn and improve, perhaps?

You give some young girl a certificate and a title of a "Scholar" and then she reads the virtues of Ulamas I can see how it can get to someone's head...I have noticed the same with young female Soldiers give'em a gun and uniform and all of a sudden they think of themselves as a cut above the rest...

:salam:

It's a tough one which requires so much wisdom especially in these delicate times. One also has to take into consideration that the author hasn't laid the blame of the situation that happened at Lal Masjid solely on the madrassah system as boys were also massacred. However, they lay a lot of the blame on the Ulema at Lal masjid/Jamia Hafsa taking traitors such as ISI as their friends. This went against what Sahaba did in the past and the result was what we saw. Those that are happy to take government funds in the UK and US would do well to take on board these lessons as they always serve as an exercise on future conduct. Once you compromise yourself in Deen , then you have got serious problems in the long run and we'll see that in the west, don't worry. It might not be in the form of some military or police coup, but it's already in place in the form of "legislations".

Regards alimahs and marriage, it's a question of compatibility like anything else. I know of one situation whereby the "alimah" is not even in Hijab and dresses completely inappropriately, yet "engaged" to a non alim. This is the product of the current system, and even if ONE has failed, in my eyes, that's an indictment of the WHOLE system in an area.

It seems the vast vast majority of muslims just don't even understand exactly what the word fitnah actually means. It's similar to a talk by Maulana Khatani in which he states that ONE Sunnah of Muhammad SAW was broken by taking the veil between a man and woman away in the form of "feminism" and look at the catastrophic results that ensued in society. Just one Sunnah and this is what happens.

This is not against women's education, or women working etc at all. However, please at least exercise some wisdom as muslims in crazy times like these. If we can't exercise it, then refer to those who have acquired it and listen to their advice. We might just save ourselves from serious ruin.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 01:15 PM
:salam:

It's a tough one which requires so much wisdom especially in these delicate times. One also has to take into consideration that the author hasn't laid the blame of the situation that happened at Lal Masjid solely on the madrassah system as boys were also massacred. However, they lay a lot of the blame on the Ulema at Lal masjid/Jamia Hafsa taking traitors such as ISI as their friends. This went against what Sahaba did in the past and the result was what we saw. Those that are happy to take government funds in the UK and US would do well to take on board these lessons as they always serve as an exercise on future conduct. Once you compromise yourself in Deen , then you have got serious problems in the long run and we'll see that in the west, don't worry. It might not be in the form of some military or police coup, but it's already in place in the form of "legislations".

Regards alimahs and marriage, it's a question of compatibility like anything else. I know of one situation whereby the "alimah" is not even in Hijab and dresses completely inappropriately, yet "engaged" to a non alim. This is the product of the current system, and even if ONE has failed, in my eyes, that's an indictment of the WHOLE system in an area.

It seems the vast vast majority of muslims just don't even understand exactly what the word fitnah actually means. It's similar to a talk by Maulana Khatani in which he states that ONE Sunnah of Muhammad SAW was broken by taking the veil between a man and woman away in the form of "feminism" and look at the catastrophic results that ensued in society. Just one Sunnah and this is what happens.

This is not against women's education, or women working etc at all. However, please at least exercise some wisdom as muslims in crazy times like these. If we can't exercise it, then refer to those who have acquired it and listen to their advice. We might just save ourselves from serious ruin.

:ws:

100% agree.

When Muslims try to solve problems in a arbitrary manner and disregard Sunnah the results are disastrous. For 1200-1300+ years in Islam there was no such thing as Girls Darul-ulooms and YET we had Muslimahs of highest quality, integrity and knowledge.

Muslimahs engaged in knowledge, wrote poetry, penned books etc and were educated.

Now we have Girls Darul-ulooms and the situation is far worse but the general state of the Ummah is also bad.

I can go through many incidents from Hajj where Alimahs informed women on the Masail of Hajj and were blatantly wrong and had no clue of what they were talking about and also on Masail related to Talaq, Khul etc.

Non-practising Alimah situation is similar to Alims, they are humans and also influenced by pressures from greater society.

I have been informed by some (who have knowledge of these matters) that email exchanges/text message exchanges between members of opposite sex is rife in Darul-ulooms both for boys and girls and I hope in the Mercy of Allah (SWT) that this doesn't happen


Internet and Cell (Mobile) Phones are destroying the Haya of the Ummah!

The system is failing and failing BIG-TIME but no one cares and we and our generations will continue to pay dearly for it. My daughter and daughters of the Ummah will be advised by these graduates and its a very scary thought!

safinatun_naja
07-04-2010, 02:17 PM
:ws:

100% agree.

When Muslims try to solve problems in a arbitrary manner and disregard Sunnah the results are disastrous. For 1200-1300+ years in Islam there was no such thing as Girls Darul-ulooms and YET we had Muslimahs of highest quality, integrity and knowledge.

Muslimahs engaged in knowledge, wrote poetry, penned books etc and were educated.

Now we have Girls Darul-ulooms and the situation is far worse but the general state of the Ummah is also bad.

I can go through many incidents from Hajj where Alimahs informed women on the Masail of Hajj and were blatantly wrong and had no clue of what they were talking about and also on Masail related to Talaq, Khul etc.

Non-practising Alimah situation is similar to Alims, they are humans and also influenced by pressures from greater society.

I have been informed by some (who have knowledge of these matters) that email exchanges/text message exchanges between members of opposite sex is rife in Darul-ulooms both for boys and girls and I hope in the Mercy of Allah (SWT) that this doesn't happen


Internet and Cell (Mobile) Phones are destroying the Haya of the Ummah!

The system is failing and failing BIG-TIME but no one cares and we and our generations will continue to pay dearly for it. My daughter and daughters of the Ummah will be advised by these graduates and its a very scary thought!

As Salamu 'alaikum wa RahmatuLlah,


I notice that the term Dar al-'Ulum comes up here, are these problems for the most part limited to Dar al-'Ulums or other education institutes for women in countries like Syria or Yemen as well ?

My family studied for some time in both South Africa and Yemen and in both places the behavior was the same in regards to texting back and forth between boys and girls and dating which seems quite rampant in the former. In countries like Yemen, perhaps they do not yet realize the great danger of cellphones as they are not banned in some of their schools.

My personal opinion is that many parents completely rely on the Dar al-'Ulum to turn their child into a saint, not realizing their duty as a parent. Many Dar al-'Ulums seem to be dump off places for troubled children and no longer attract the bright students. What really troubles me is how parent with have the nerve to blame the Dar al-'Ulum if their child goes bad.....

marco100
07-04-2010, 02:19 PM
:ws:

100% agree.

When Muslims try to solve problems in a arbitrary manner and disregard Sunnah the results are disastrous. For 1200-1300+ years in Islam there was no such thing as Girls Darul-ulooms and YET we had Muslimahs of highest quality, integrity and knowledge.

Muslimahs engaged in knowledge, wrote poetry, penned books etc and were educated.

Now we have Girls Darul-ulooms and the situation is far worse but the general state of the Ummah is also bad.

I can go through many incidents from Hajj where Alimahs informed women on the Masail of Hajj and were blatantly wrong and had no clue of what they were talking about and also on Masail related to Talaq, Khul etc.

Non-practising Alimah situation is similar to Alims, they are humans and also influenced by pressures from greater society.

I have been informed by some (who have knowledge of these matters) that email exchanges/text message exchanges between members of opposite sex is rife in Darul-ulooms both for boys and girls and I hope in the Mercy of Allah (SWT) that this doesn't happen


Internet and Cell (Mobile) Phones are destroying the Haya of the Ummah!

The system is failing and failing BIG-TIME but no one cares and we and our generations will continue to pay dearly for it. My daughter and daughters of the Ummah will be advised by these graduates and its a very scary thought!

:salam:

Well if the product of a Darul-Uloom is someone like Maulana Abuhajira Saheb or others on here, then one can easily say that the system is working. ( You owe me some rand for that maulana saheb! ;) )

Fitnah and wisdom are the 2 key words from this exercise and I'm sad to say 99% of muslims, myself included don't even understand the terms or how to apply them.

If people really want to be shocked, then let me tell you, I've heard from reliable sources and this happened in India, of an alimah who somehow, got mixed up with a hindu bloke. She not just ran away with him, but was seen performing in adult movies. Now, the parents were confronted over this and all they could say was "it's not our fault, we only sent her to madrassah, we didn't know what she was getting up to". Therein lies the wisdom of the article. Even if it was a noble intention on the part of the parents, they failed to understand what fitnah actually means and didn't exercise wisdom based on it's meaning.

This is how sensitive and dangerous these times are. One small slip even if you mean well, and the results are potentially catastrophic.

marco100
07-04-2010, 02:26 PM
As Salamu 'alaikum wa RahmatuLlah,


I notice that the term Dar al-'Ulum comes up here, are these problems for the most part limited to Dar al-'Ulums or other education institutes for women in countries like Syria or Yemen as well ?

My family studied for some time in both South Africa and Yemen and in both places the behavior was the same in regards to texting back and forth between boys and girls and dating which seems quite rampant in the former. In countries like Yemen, perhaps they do not yet realize the great danger of cellphones as they are not banned in some of their schools.

My personal opinion is that many parents completely rely on the Dar al-'Ulum to turn their child into a saint, not realizing their duty as a parent. Many Dar al-'Ulums seem to be dump off places for troubled children and no longer attract the bright students. What really troubles me is how parent with have the nerve to blame the Dar al-'Ulum if their child goes bad.....

:salam:

Exactly!. The institutions are seen by parents for the Tarbiyyah of their child like any schooling system, be it secular or religious. When you are relying on an external medium to carry out the tarbiyyah what are you expecting to happen?. You've already given up control so you can't blame anyone but yourself.

2 words: Culture and Medium

In a laboratory setting when one places some culture of say bacteria in a particular medium, the growth of the bacteria is reflected by the medium. In other words, you control the medium and you control the growth. Similarly, youth culture is absolutely dependent on that very same medium. You nurture it, you implement Taleem and Tarbiyyah and there is a very good chance the child will grow in the manner they were intended.

Again, who understands all this in the Ummah these days?

Mathbooh
07-04-2010, 02:33 PM
:salam:

I dunno if it's only me that sees things like this,but IMHO generally bad boys go 2 madrasah n wen they graduate,come out better.Good girls go to madrasah,and a significant amount of times......(thinkin of the top of my head,i can't think of a good boy that went to DU,graduated n came out worse.)
As far as adult videos are concerned,I've heard stories of a similiar type and similiar kinda stuff goin on....
If i'm not mistaken,I know of an aalimah(or at least her bro gave the impression) that even after graduation was linkin her bro with diff. girls,n sometimes innocent young girls that hadnt xperianced that kinda stuff b4....
This issue is what really makes me respect majlis,coz he came under xtreme criticism 4 it and he was accused of takin woman back to the dark ages e.t.c., and was one man standing.He stood by his stance over the years,despite pressure,and IMHO today a lot of ppl r gona eat humble pie(if they not constipated with it already).



And Allah knows best.

insufficient
07-04-2010, 02:35 PM
In a laboratory setting when one places some culture of say bacteria in a particular medium, the growth of the bacteria is reflected by the medium. In other words, you control the medium and you control the growth. Similarly, youth culture is absolutely dependent on that very same medium. You nurture it, you implement Taleem and Tarbiyyah and there is a very good chance the child will grow in the manner they were intended.

Again, who understands all this in the Ummah these days?

:salam:

:mash: a beautiful analogy

safinatun_naja
07-04-2010, 02:51 PM
If we look at the lives of some of the greatest 'Ulama, we will find that the child was first educated by his/her father. Parents, who may mean well, are sending their children to school expecting the teacher to fill the enormous void which is problematic for the developing child who needs their parent's direction at this very crucial age.

It is noble to send your child for Dar al-'Ulum studies but the parent must not forget that they also need to acquire 'Ilm and be a role mode for their children.

l

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 04:05 PM
:ws: Brothers,

Its impossible to have genuine control over the eductaion of your daughter once she is in a Darul-uloom, how can you do it?

1) She is inside an instiutution where due to Shariah reasons I am not allowed
2) I can't interact and speak with teachers due to Shariah reasons
3) I can't interact and keep an eye on her friends and classmates etc. due to Shariah reasons

Once I put her in a black-box ITS DONE, ITS OVER and I have no idea what goes in. My wife can have some input but I am getting indirect news so its still imperfect.

With a boy, I can go speak to teachers, look at the environment, look at who he is hanging out with etc.

Do you see the difference between the boys and girls Darul-uloom system?

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 04:42 PM
@ Uncle Colonel, with respect to you uncle, I cant see how you are trying to resolve the aalimah issue? you cant meet any, you cant speak to any and the ones you have interacted with publically, you have completely misunderstood and misjudged them. on the other hand, I have recently met quite a few allimahs. Every one of them was an inspiration and admirable. The alimahs spend their lives learning islam and following deen and the ones who go to university spend their lives mixing with boys and learning secular values. They are not the same.

you wife cannot monitor your son in darul uloom and you cannot monitor your daughter in darul uloom. why is that different? She comes home on wekeends and holidays and you talk to her on the phone. You do the same when your daughter is in university.

This is not personal or intended to anyone but I look at the alimahs and feel a bit jeaulous of how they spent their teenage years, and they are married with good naik husbands and have naik kids doing good things because they have naik mums and dads. All in all, they are confident in their islam and happy with Allah's deen. I wish I had that iinstead of uni.

But not all alimahs are good. but some are very good. dont let personal prejudices affect judging them. lots of alims marry alimahs and are happy becuase they have good wives who teach and follow islam.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 05:00 PM
@ Uncle Colonel, with respect to you uncle, I cant see how you are trying to resolve the aalimah issue? you cant meet any, you cant speak to any and the ones you have interacted with publically, you have completely misunderstood and misjudged them. on the other hand, I have recently met quite a few allimahs. Every one of them was an inspiration and admirable. The alimahs spend their lives learning islam and following deen and the ones who go to university spend their lives mixing with boys and learning secular values. They are not the same.

you wife cannot monitor your son in darul uloom and you cannot monitor your daughter in darul uloom. why is that different? She comes home on wekeends and holidays and you talk to her on the phone. You do the same when your daughter is in university.

This is not personal or intended to anyone but I look at the alimahs and feel a bit jeaulous of how they spent their teenage years, and they are married with good naik husbands and have naik kids doing good things because they have naik mums and dads. All in all, they are confident in their islam and happy with Allah's deen. I wish I had that iinstead of uni.

But not all alimahs are good. but some are very good. dont let personal prejudices affect judging them. lots of alims marry alimahs and are happy becuase they have good wives who teach and follow islam.

:ws: Sister,

It is not my place to resolve anything. This is a forum where people offer their opinions so why I do I get singled out? I am not offending anyone and trying to discuss the matter in an amicable manner without insulting anyone and I expect that other can do the same.

Why get all emotional about the issue? I have neither raised the issue of P ORN movies and Alimahs and neither commented on it, please read carefully. There are others saying the same things and quoting Fatawa so why single me out?

Now, lets get back and discuss what I am saying instead of misunderstanding my point.

The upbringing of my children (both boys and girls) is my primary responsibility and I believe that I will be held accountable for it.

For my boys my wife needs to do nothing I can look after them, meet their teachers and do whatever I need to do to monitor them.

For my girls, they go in a black-box I can do nothing but rely on 2nd hand information from my wife who may or may not be able to correctly read the situation inside a Darul-uloom. The primary responsibility is not hers but mine.

The girls Darul-ulooms isn't a phenomenon which has existed in the history of Islam. Men travelled long distances and acquired knowledge girls NEVER DID. If someone thinks that girls Darul-ulooms are a good idea then know that Islamic history appears empty of this good idea.

As far as Naik Muslimahs getting Naik husbands and bringing up Naik children issue is concerned then being Naik (pious) has nothing to do with attending Darul-ulooms (either boys or girls).

There are plenty of pious people (men and women) who have never set foot in a Darul-uloom.

There are plenty of sinners (men and women) who have spent over half of their life in a Darul-uloom and their parents, grand-parents are Ulama and Scholars.

I hope that ONCE EVERYBODY GETS THE POINT that I have nothing against anybody,

Alimahs or Non-Alimahs
Alims or Non-Alims

I did and am simply questioning the precedence and existence of girls Darul-ulooms from Islamic history where girls travelled long distances and boarded and lived away from their Parents/Maharim/Families and acquired Islamic knowledge.

For some people girls Darul-ulooms is a brilliant idea for example:

1) Orphans girls with no families

2) Revert Sisters with no Islamic family or community support and living in predominently unIslamic or Anti-Islamic environments

3) Single Mothers with no Islamic family or community support

For 1, 2 & 3 it gives a chance to bring Islamic support and sense of community and cohesion I really see the point in girls Darul-ulooms in certain cases. Here the Fiqh principle of Haraj needs to be looked into...I mean what do we do abandon Muslimahs in predominently Kuffar environments with no help and support? Absolutely not we bring them together with like-minded Muslimahs and try to make the situation as best as we can for them.

Here we ensure that these Sisters and their needs are well looked after and they are provided assistence with all their needs and getting married etc.

In other cases where a young Muslim girl is growing up under the watchul eyes and supervision of her parents and you take her away and drive her 200 miles and put her in a hostel and she is interacting with all sorts of girls and getting influence, I don't see the point.

At the end of the day its my personal opinion and I believe that I am allowed to make personal decisions which are better for my own children.

For those who want to ship their daughters out and put then in an alien environment and then have no control over their upbringing then thats their decision and their call.

If you want to know the simple solution then I have also highlighted it previously

a) Setup as many local Darul-ulooms and institutions as possible so girls can be taught locally and they come home.

b) Where nothing exists locally then Parents should either MOVE or MAKE arrangements with Maharim of the young girls getting educated and then coming to some sort of a home environment.

c) Using the Internet i.e. something which Mufti Yusuf Mullan has setup with live interaction with Ulama and girls can educate themselves and also become Alimahs again under the supervision of their Parents

http://www.shariahprogram.ca/

d) For part timers Ulama should also use the Internet and the Lessons can be taken in an offline mode, something along the lines of what Shaykh Raiyadhul-Haq's Bukhari Lessons, again under the supervision of their Parents

http://www.akacademy.eu/

Note that the difference between c & d is DIRECT VS INDIRECT interaction with Ulama, whatever suits Muslimahs and they can choose.

f) Using video conferening facilities for NON-LOCAL students where femals Alimahs provide guidence and there needs to be some sort of technical checks to ensure that these Lessons cannot be recorded and those who are logged ON are checked and scrutinisied.

e) For Tazkiyyah Muslimahs can interact with their Shaykh via letters or emails. It has been done via letters this for centuries.

In Tassawuff there has NEVER BEEN DIRECT INTERACTION between a Shaykh and a girl so again no need for a Darul-uloom for Tarbiyah

The point is to educate girls and also look after them and do their Tarbiyyah and I honestly believe that there is no REASON OR HINDERENCE in Muslimahs acquiring knowledge all we need to do is fine-tune the methods a little bit.


All Sisters who think I am Anti-Girls-Eductaion either get my point or they don't and to Allah (SWT) is everybody's intentions.

The same rules should be applied to Secular i.e. university education.

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 05:11 PM
Ok uncle colonel, I know other people answered these posts but I like your posts so I read yours EXTRA carefully, hehe :D So I like to answer to ur posts becoz you are sometimes angry, sometimes happy, sometimes jokey and sometimes even a bit embarassing. :$ This is all a joke uncle so please dont get agry. You are a good uncle becoz you are challenging so I look out for your posts and read them properly. Ok? No hard feelings.

I just wanted to say that even if you are not a revert, or orphan or a single mum you can become an alimah and change your life. My life was going in a direction of peer pressure, friends, fashion, uni, even boys and my mum and dad tried to marry me to a cousin in pakistan and i knew my life was going to be totally messed. But i managed to make small small changes, about 5%-10% changes and my life changed in a BIG BIG way. so now i wish an alimah so i could know how to be naik then i would always be happy with allahs decision. this is what an alimah taught me.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 05:22 PM
Ok uncle colonel, I know other people answered these posts but I like your posts so I read yours EXTRA carefully, hehe :D So I like to answer to ur posts becoz you are sometimes angry, sometimes happy, sometimes jokey and sometimes even a bit embarassing. :$ This is all a joke uncle so please dont get agry. You are a good uncle becoz you are challenging so I look out for your posts and read them properly. Ok? No hard feelings.

I just wanted to say that even if you are not a revert, or orphan or a single mum you can become an alimah and change your life. My life was going in a direction of peer pressure, friends, fashion, uni, even boys and my mum and dad tried to marry me to a cousin in pakistan and i knew my life was going to be totally messed. But i managed to make small small changes, about 5%-10% changes and my life changed in a BIG BIG way. so now i wish an alimah so i could know how to be naik then i would always be happy with allahs decision. this is what an alimah taught me.

:ws:

I am not offended Sister, don't worry :-)

Absolutely every Muslimah should acquire knowledge and also engage and interact with other pious Muslimahs and I would like to say that IT IS OBLIGATORY on a girl as well as a boy.

Please see many options given in the post and you will find one or the other which fits your lifestyle. And its NEVER too late you should and can still become an Alimah.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?56666-Lal-Masjid-Jamia-Hafsa-and-massacre-of-Students-of-Islam&p=471928&viewfull=1#post471928

There are Sisters with children who are becoming Alimahs so anything is possible.

Islam places no limits or restrictions on age or marital status etc.

I am a Pakistani and I deal with these cousin marraige business all the time in person and via email and girl Darul-ulooms don't help their either. I knew of a Sister in Bradford who was an Alimah and ran away from home because she didn't want to marry her cousin and no one was listening to her.

May Allah (SWT) assist all Muslims.

Remember! The world is your oyster. You want to be an Alimah whatever your age is IT'S NEVER TOO LATE, you want to become Naik (pious) then seek the company of pious Sisters or get connected to a Shaykh. The possibilities for you are endless.

I am questioning the methods and not the goals. The goals are within the bounds of Shariah.

Also Remember! Men are ultimately responsible for taking care of and looking after women so if a WIFE of DAUGHTER says that she wants to be an Alimah then MEN should make the sacrifice and accomodate that request as best as they can...

sudoku
07-04-2010, 05:27 PM
:ws:

Remember! The world is your oyster. You want to be an Alimah whatever your age is IT'S NEVER TOO LATE, you want to become Naik (pious) then seek the company of pious Sisters or get connected to a Shaykh. The possibilities for you are endless.


:salam:

Very true. I knew an aunty (she was I reckon over 50 and had two grown children and one teen) and she completed her alima course, along with wifely and motherly duties, :mash:.

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 05:27 PM
but i dont want to be an internet alimah :rolleyes:
i want to spend time with good naik sisters who will have good effect on me.

sudoku
07-04-2010, 05:33 PM
but i dont want to be an internet alimah :rolleyes:
i want to spend time with good naik sisters who will have good effect on me.

:salam:

Ah sis, nothing wrong with being an internet Alimah if the teachers are bona fide :-)

As for naik sisters, I may sound lame, but I am being totally honest when i say that I have found them on SF, especially having no one around where I live.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 05:36 PM
but i dont want to be an internet alimah :rolleyes:
i want to spend time with good naik sisters who will have good effect on me.

Then find them locally or with long-distance Sisters chat with them on phone, text messages or MSN whatever and even travel to them in the company of male members of your family.

You can even use your video camera to chat with good Muslim Sisters.

Sister, we are running a project with Sisters across Europe and they particapte in our Shura and give us advice etc.

Here is the site:

http://www.euro-sunni.com/

Here is the forum where we discuss things:

http://islam.forumup.it/profile.php?mode=register&agreed=true&mforum=islam

Sisters across countries talk and interact with each other and it all works.

There are Sisters across the world who interact with their Shaykh via email or phone and have NEVER seen them and have gone from non-practising to being very Naik (pious).

Its all possible.

P.S: Men in girls Darul-ulooms teach from behind the screen and here is Shaykkh Riyadhul-Haq's Bukhari Lesson in video on the Internet:

http://www.akacademy.eu/bukhari/index

Where is the problem?

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 05:46 PM
its a bit like all these pple who come on Sf isnt it? Theres naik ppl here but its different from spending time with them in their companay. You can see them and observe them. Lots of things remain unsaid. I might start doing alimah course with the shariah program but after you learn arabic i think if you want to be a proper alim aor alimah you need to be in the company of your teachers. what do you think? I think the internet is good like sudoko says but its not a substitute for real life is it?

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 05:58 PM
its a bit like all these pple who come on Sf isnt it? Theres naik ppl here but its different from spending time with them in their companay. You can see them and observe them. Lots of things remain unsaid. I might start doing alimah course with the shariah program but after you learn arabic i think if you want to be a proper alim aor alimah you need to be in the company of your teachers. what do you think? I think the internet is good like sudoko says but its not a substitute for real life is it?

If you live in UK then you can't be very far away from Naik Sisters. I am pretty sure that if you go in the private section and say where you live you will find someone who will direct your accordingly.

Interact with Naik Muslimahs locally

Interact with Naik Muslimahs globally using Technology OR with the help, advise and assistence of your male family members husband included

Study locally without any issues

Study globally using Technology OR with the help, advise and assistence of your male family members husband included

If you are not married then ask your potential husband that you would like to become an Alimah and would like his help in it.

If you are not married then ask your potential husband that you would like to interact with Naik Sisters and you can go and meet Sister Sudoko in person :-)

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 06:04 PM
:jazak: for your advice. I am lucky to have met some very good naik sisters and also email them sometimes for my problems. I havent got a husband yet but i hope i can marry a good alim who can teach me islam. I just wanted to say that the alimahs i have met are more naik then any of the other non alimah ladies. if you take 50 alims and alimah and 50 nonalims and nonalimah and compare all their practice on deen and their acceptance of deen and even their happiness then the alims/alimahs will come toip. This is not my scientific experiement but just my humble observation. I think ppl who are not alims will disagree but what i say is true.

Thankyou for your advice uncle colonel.

marco100
07-04-2010, 06:06 PM
@ Uncle Colonel, with respect to you uncle, I cant see how you are trying to resolve the aalimah issue? you cant meet any, you cant speak to any and the ones you have interacted with publically, you have completely misunderstood and misjudged them. on the other hand, I have recently met quite a few allimahs. Every one of them was an inspiration and admirable. The alimahs spend their lives learning islam and following deen and the ones who go to university spend their lives mixing with boys and learning secular values. They are not the same.

you wife cannot monitor your son in darul uloom and you cannot monitor your daughter in darul uloom. why is that different? She comes home on wekeends and holidays and you talk to her on the phone. You do the same when your daughter is in university.

This is not personal or intended to anyone but I look at the alimahs and feel a bit jeaulous of how they spent their teenage years, and they are married with good naik husbands and have naik kids doing good things because they have naik mums and dads. All in all, they are confident in their islam and happy with Allah's deen. I wish I had that iinstead of uni.

But not all alimahs are good. but some are very good. dont let personal prejudices affect judging them. lots of alims marry alimahs and are happy becuase they have good wives who teach and follow islam.

:salam: sister

I think you misunderstood the point made in the article. No one is disputing that an aalimah can be pious, nor that a non aalimah can be pious. However, the salient point is how one gives up control when they change the medium in which a child is learning their education.

The example the author gave was that of Niqabi sisters running in the streets brandishing sticks. That is unbecoming of a woman but that was the product of a medium whereby the harsh conditions provided the catalyst for such behaviour. Just ponder on that sometime.

The second a child, boy or girl sets foot outside the home, the medium has changed and control has been passed to someone else. In a time like this, when fitnah is at an all time high, if a parent wants to take that chance, then that's their prerogative.

This is not an issue of education so please refrain from that. Everyone deserves an education, and the best education at that, but as Uncle has said above the method always has to be looked at.

I brought up the examples of non hijabi aalimah, and the aalimah who went off the rails and into a life of vice, because it's happened. It's not fiction. So, if even one apple turned out bad in a system that was geared to producing exemplary muslimahs, not to question the validity of the methods used to educate girls and even boys for that matter is in my humble opinion suicidal.

marco100
07-04-2010, 06:08 PM
:jazak: for your advice. I am lucky to have met some very good naik sisters and also email them sometimes for my problems. I havent got a husband yet but i hope i can marry a good alim who can teach me islam. I just wanted to say that the alimahs i have met are more naik then any of the other non alimah ladies. if you take 50 alims and alimah and 50 nonalims and nonalimah and compare all their practice on deen and their acceptance of deen and even their happiness then the alims/alimahs will come toip. This is not my scientific experiement but just my humble observation. I think ppl who are not alims will disagree but what i say is true.

Thankyou for your advice uncle colonel.

:salam:

how about comparisons between 50 aalimah's that went to madrassah versus 50 aalimah's that were trained up in the same manner but by their mothers. Based on what I've said with regards to a few bad apples, which method is better?

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 06:13 PM
:jazak: for your advice. I am lucky to have met some very good naik sisters and also email them sometimes for my problems. I havent got a husband yet but i hope i can marry a good alim who can teach me islam. I just wanted to say that the alimahs i have met are more naik then any of the other non alimah ladies. if you take 50 alims and alimah and 50 nonalims and nonalimah and compare all their practice on deen and their acceptance of deen and even their happiness then the alims/alimahs will come toip. This is not my scientific experiement but just my humble observation. I think ppl who are not alims will disagree but what i say is true.

Thankyou for your advice uncle colonel.

:ws:

In the Dhikr/Dua book of Shaykh (Mufti) Nizamuddin Shamzai Shaheed (RA) there are some duas for finding a Naik and compatible husband. For some bizarre reason its not mentioned in the English translation but only in the Urdu version.

Please ask Sisters to get the book and get you the duas and you can recite them, Insha'Allah.

:jazak:

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 06:17 PM
:salam:

how about comparisons between 50 aalimah's that went to madrassah versus 50 aalimah's that were trained up in the same manner but by their mothers. Based on what I've said with regards to a few bad apples, which method is better?

how can you train to be an alimah by your mother? if you are talking about house training then alimahs get that too. What about university girls? you cant compare them to alimah. I go to uni. I wish i went to a madresa instead.

marco100
07-04-2010, 06:20 PM
how can you train to be an alimah by your mother? if you are talking about house training then alimahs get that too. What about university girls? you cant compare them to alimah. I go to uni. I wish i went to a madresa instead.

:salam:

methodology sister. I'll leave it there.

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 06:20 PM
ok. whatever! :rolleyes:

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 06:22 PM
how can you train to be an alimah by your mother? if you are talking about house training then alimahs get that too. What about university girls? you cant compare them to alimah. I go to uni. I wish i went to a madresa instead.

:salam:

Throughout Islamic history Alimahs were trained by mothers. As I have been asking for yonks on this forum :-)

Someone give me examples of girl Darul-ulooms from Islamic history i.e. how many existed where and how did they teach?

Jamia Al-Azhar (for boys/men) has existed for over 1000 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Azhar_University

Someone give me a female equivalent of it and that would be fine.

P.S: Lets not discuss their Manhaj and methodology of Al-Azhar as thats not my intention, Insha'Allah.

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 06:39 PM
ummm... thats not my field. but uncle colonel if you want an answer i think you should go to the alims who run the madresa becoz no one here on sf will give you any answer on this one. the laymen dont know these answers and the scholars tend to stay away from these debates becoz they see them as a waste of time.

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 07:04 PM
would you prefer it that your wife or your daughter or your sister learn islam from a man or woman?
if you say man, then ok, but why is there no fitnah? plus how can she change her amal if she has no female role model?
If you saya woman then you need an alimah. not some half knowledge ppl like on the al magrib courses.

i know i want to go to a woman to learn most of my deen becoz only women know hoe to explain to women. when a man says 'do pardah! serve your husband! obey you mum and dad! ' I feel like saying GET LOST MATE :$

but when a women explain in a nice, soft gentle and caring way I feel guilty for disobeying my paretns and want to change myself. so you need alimah. good alimahs like the ones i go to. :D

happinessx100
07-04-2010, 07:11 PM
final note: this is directed at nobody in general and i'm not arguing or looking to argue but i see that too many men sit and judge women without proper knowledge. how can you judge alimahs when you never meet them? it always alimah this and alimahs that but you ppl who have never met them are saying things becoz u come in with minds already made up.

If I become and alimah and disagree with someone and then ppl say I am going for their neck just becoz I politely disagree with them then I think this is just a sign of a bad loser. If a woman disgrees with you then be gentleman and stay polite.

i never understood why men sit heer saying alimah this and alimah that when they nothing about what real alimahs are like. i hope i can become an alimah one day. i want to have enuf knowlege that i fully understand and accept all of Allah's rulings. i dont want to have just a bit of knowledge to get by but i want to understand quran and hadith and all the wisdom behind rulings of allah. so plz make dua for me and when i come back in 6-7 years time i hope some members have got over their predjudices.so i am welcome here :-)

maneatinglizard
07-04-2010, 08:10 PM
:salam:

So are the criticisms being directed at Girls' Darul Ulooms in general, or only to sending girls to live in those Darul Ulooms?

I'd imagine that alot of these problems would be avoided if the girls attends a Darul Uloom that allows her to remain with her family.

Colonel_Hardstone
07-04-2010, 09:50 PM
final note: this is directed at nobody in general and i'm not arguing or looking to argue but i see that too many men sit and judge women without proper knowledge. how can you judge alimahs when you never meet them? it always alimah this and alimahs that but you ppl who have never met them are saying things becoz u come in with minds already made up.

If I become and alimah and disagree with someone and then ppl say I am going for their neck just becoz I politely disagree with them then I think this is just a sign of a bad loser. If a woman disgrees with you then be gentleman and stay polite.

i never understood why men sit heer saying alimah this and alimah that when they nothing about what real alimahs are like. i hope i can become an alimah one day. i want to have enuf knowlege that i fully understand and accept all of Allah's rulings. i dont want to have just a bit of knowledge to get by but i want to understand quran and hadith and all the wisdom behind rulings of allah. so plz make dua for me and when i come back in 6-7 years time i hope some members have got over their predjudices.so i am welcome here :-)

:ws: Sister,

Channel your emotions the right way, Insha'Allah.

We need someone to be the co-ordinator for our Euro-Sunni project as the Sister who was previously doing the job has asked to be excused due to personal reasons as she needs some time off.

You sound like a good person to take our and co-ordinate various translation activties. Please look at my post and register on our forum and browse our activities and if you want to help then go ahead. You will find many of the SF people on that forum too and some new people as well.

You job will include beating people up when they don't deliver their projects on time. Please consult the Alimahs whom you are in touch as to how they feel if you volunteer and work with us and then let us know. If you turn it down then we will advertise and approach someone else.

All you need is a PC, Internet connection and a brain. Do you think that you can manage with all of these? :-) :-) :-)

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?56666-Lal-Masjid-Jamia-Hafsa-and-massacre-of-Students-of-Islam&p=471940&viewfull=1#post471940


:salam:

So are the criticisms being directed at Girls' Darul Ulooms in general, or only to sending girls to live in those Darul Ulooms?

I'd imagine that alot of these problems would be avoided if the girls attends a Darul Uloom that allows her to remain with her family.

:ws:

Just voicing personal concerns regarding sending girls to live in these institutions away from home and Parental supervision. Muslimahs can stay local and learn as much as they can.

This is my personal and unqualified opinion.

Although the Ulama of Majlis seem to be taking a more stringent approach.

happinessx100
08-04-2010, 12:19 AM
If you want a qualified and informed opinion on women alimahs then go to Shaikh abdurrahman and Shaikh abdurrahim or hafez patel of markaz or so many other ulamah of the uk who have sent their wives, sisters, daughters and granddaughters to become alimahs in girls madresas. if it so bad there or if it is against islam then ask them. Becoz they are alims they will give you a proper qualified answer. But if you have already made your mind up and dont want to listen to the alims opinion then forget it.

Uncle Col, I tried registeringon the Euru Sunnit Forum but it is all in French I think.:$

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 08:56 AM
:ws: Sister,

Channel your emotions the right way, Insha'Allah.

We need someone to be the co-ordinator for our Euro-Sunni project as the Sister who was previously doing the job has asked to be excused due to personal reasons as she needs some time off.

You sound like a good person to take our and co-ordinate various translation activties. Please look at my post and register on our forum and browse our activities and if you want to help then go ahead. You will find many of the SF people on that forum too and some new people as well.

You job will include beating people up when they don't deliver their projects on time. Please consult the Alimahs whom you are in touch as to how they feel if you volunteer and work with us and then let us know. If you turn it down then we will advertise and approach someone else.

All you need is a PC, Internet connection and a brain. Do you think that you can manage with all of these? :-) :-) :-)

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?56666-Lal-Masjid-Jamia-Hafsa-and-massacre-of-Students-of-Islam&p=471940&viewfull=1#post471940


.

:salam: uncle colonel or other euro sunni ppl,
how can I acess the euro forum? I have registered but I havent been approved yet on the forum. I got an email, not sure which language tho.? I am interested in what colonek said so plz reply to this.

xs11ax
09-04-2010, 09:55 AM
If you want a qualified and informed opinion on women alimahs then go to Shaikh abdurrahman and Shaikh abdurrahim or hafez patel of markaz or so many other ulamah of the uk who have sent their wives, sisters, daughters and granddaughters to become alimahs in girls madresas. if it so bad there or if it is against islam then ask them. Becoz they are alims they will give you a proper qualified answer. But if you have already made your mind up and dont want to listen to the alims opinion then forget it.



or you could ask moulana yusuf motala about what happened at his girls madrasa in bradford.

and while you are doing that find out about the girls school in dewsbury just behind the markaz.

it works both ways.

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 10:10 AM
I dont believe rumours.
If you have seen anything with ur own eyes then tell us. If you are spreading rumours then I dont want to be a part of it.
Where did you go to study brother xs? Tell us some stories from your school or college or ur uni. Nothing to tell? they must be all angels that went 2 ur school or uni!! Or maybe u pick on madresas coz u like 2 criticize? OH! and u like going to jamat dont u? Nooneever smoked or sneaked off in jamaat ever?? No one makes mistakes when they go jamaat? OR maybe u r selective in ur criticism like i saw u do on another thread? maybe we shud all stop going jamaat coz SOMETIMES 1 or 2 ppl in jamaat do things wrong so EVERYBODY who goes to jamaat is in the wtrong? Maybe we shud all ask hafez patel about that one guy in jamaat who snuck off to do drugs one night??? What dyu say hafez patel ji...... IS UR WHOLE ORGANISATION CORRUPT?????
*sarcastic look*

OF COURSE NOT!!!! I cant beleive I answer to such silly posts. N e way, believe what you want cant be bothered with biased ppl.

colonel, just plz answer my Q about the euro sunni thing. I cant be bothered with all the other arguments. Thanks.

xs11ax
09-04-2010, 10:21 AM
I dont believe rumours.
If you have seen anything with ur own eyes then tell us. If you are spreading rumours then I dont want to be a part of it.
Where did you go to study brother xs? Tell us some stories from your school or college or ur uni. Nothing to tell? they must be all angels that went 2 ur school or uni!! Or maybe u pick on madresas coz u like 2 criticize? OH! and u like going to jamat dont u? Nooneever smoked or sneaked off in jamaat ever?? No one makes mistakes when they go jamaat? OR maybe u r selective in ur criticism like i saw u do on another thread? maybe we shud all stop going jamaat coz SOMETIMES 1 or 2 ppl in jamaat do things wrong so EVERYBODY who goes to jamaat is in the wtrong? Maybe we shud all ask hafez patel about that one guy in jamaat who snuck off to do drugs one night??? What dyu say hafez patel ji...... IS UR WHOLE ORGANISATION CORRUPT?????
*sarcastic look*

OF COURSE NOT!!!! I cant beleive I answer to such silly posts. N e way, believe what you want cant be bothered with biased ppl.

colonel, just plz answer my Q about the euro sunni thing. I cant be bothered with all the other arguments. Thanks.

i am sorry that i replied to your post.

i am making a mental note never to reply to your posts again.

you fail to grasp the discussion and the context of the arguments given.

by your posts i assume that you have very little experience of life. you are probably very young.

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 10:34 AM
No need to be patronizing. You are probably very narrow minded thats why you dont like to accept that I have made sum good points. That is why I said I cant be bothered answering your posts. I may be young, but I still have a mind.
But hey bro, thanks for one thing I will save your this quote

i am sorry that i replied to your post.

i am making a mental note never to reply to your posts again.

you fail to grasp the discussion and the context of the arguments given.

by your posts i assume that you have very little experience of life. you are probably very young.

and use it everytime someone gives me an answer that I have no reply to. Its a good line to use when you dont have anything else good to say. :cheesygri

sudoku
09-04-2010, 11:09 AM
:salam:

Okay, let's stay calm and cool and harness our emotions when replying to one another. Rasulullah :saw: taught us the best way to respond to someone you are disagreeing with, did he not? Remember that your words that you write on a forum will also count for or against you in the sight of Allah. Remember that there are real people with real emotions who read and write, and how Muslims are those who are soft amongst one another, in fact this is how it is mentioned by Allah in the Qur'aan. So, be careful and think about how others may feel when they read comments. Think before you write, and if you're in the state of anger, better not type anything at the moment at all, because you cannot be sure whether you are typing due to zeal in a matter, or simple pride.

not known
09-04-2010, 12:20 PM
:salam: uncle colonel or other euro sunni ppl,
how can I acess the euro forum? I have registered but I havent been approved yet on the forum. I got an email, not sure which language tho.? I am interested in what colonek said so plz reply to this.

:salam:

hope this will help http://translate.google.co.in/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fislam.forumup.it%2Findex.php%3Fmfor um%3Dislam&sl=it&tl=en

:insh:

xs11ax
09-04-2010, 12:25 PM
No need to be patronizing.

then you go on to say...


You are probably very narrow minded thats why you dont like to accept that I have made sum good points.

???

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 12:28 PM
:salam: uncle colonel or other euro sunni ppl,
how can I acess the euro forum? I have registered but I havent been approved yet on the forum. I got an email, not sure which language tho.? I am interested in what colonek said so plz reply to this.

:ws:

Brother who is our Admin is in UK and I think he should approve your Account in the next day or so, Insha'Allah.



I dont believe rumours.
If you have seen anything with ur own eyes then tell us. If you are spreading rumours then I dont want to be a part of it.
Where did you go to study brother xs? Tell us some stories from your school or college or ur uni. Nothing to tell? they must be all angels that went 2 ur school or uni!! Or maybe u pick on madresas coz u like 2 criticize? OH! and u like going to jamat dont u? Nooneever smoked or sneaked off in jamaat ever?? No one makes mistakes when they go jamaat? OR maybe u r selective in ur criticism like i saw u do on another thread? maybe we shud all stop going jamaat coz SOMETIMES 1 or 2 ppl in jamaat do things wrong so EVERYBODY who goes to jamaat is in the wtrong? Maybe we shud all ask hafez patel about that one guy in jamaat who snuck off to do drugs one night??? What dyu say hafez patel ji...... IS UR WHOLE ORGANISATION CORRUPT?????
*sarcastic look*

OF COURSE NOT!!!! I cant beleive I answer to such silly posts. N e way, believe what you want cant be bothered with biased ppl.

colonel, just plz answer my Q about the euro sunni thing. I cant be bothered with all the other arguments. Thanks.



If you pick up a standard brochure from any university it talks about a few things (in Summary):

1) Talks about its facilities
2) Talks about its faculty and staff
3) Talks about its graduates and how education at the institutions has fulfilled their ambitions and how successful they are in their respective careers and how the institution has helped them fulfil their goals

Darul-ulooms were first established in UK in the Mid-70’s and now we have a multitude of fulltime Darul-ulooms and plethora of part time institutions which offer Alim or Alimah courses. I don’t have statistics but I am sure that we easily have a few thousand Alims or Alimahs in UK.

Where is the finished product from these institutions and what are they doing and achieving?

In the thread below somewhere are statistics of Al-Maghrib given by Maulana e-teacher (an Alim himself and someone who knows the system in which he himself studied)

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?57195-Al-Maghrib-and-Al-Kauthar/page19

Compare the statistics of AL-Maghrib and what they are doing to a multitude of fulltime Darul-ulooms and plethora of part time institutions which offer Alim or Alimah courses in UK with thousands of graduates and this sad reality will HIT YOU IN THE FACE:

A) There is NO OFFICIAL Fatwa site in UK of any Major institution

B) There is NO WAY to even get a phone answered or an email replied professionally in UK of any Major institution

C) There are NO Statistics on what happened to thousands of young men and women who diligently worked hard for years and passed through the halls of these prestigious institutions (as we see in Uni-lingo!)

D) There is NO WAY to get in touch with Alims or Alimahs in these institutions when you have Islamic queries, you have to someone who has to know someone who has to know someone

E) Graduates of these institutions a few miles apart from each other and replicate efforts and duplicate/double-use resources. Bradford and Leicester are prime examples of this phenomenon you have Academies a few miles apart DOING THE SAME THING without enforcing any standards or methodologies and all of them have MASSIVE FANCY BUILDINGS and are massively in debt due to it.

F) Standard issues like moonsigting ( Ramadhan, Eid) and prayer times are neither resolved nor discussed! Take a look at prayertimes in Bardford of two Mosques ½ mile apart and they are different…

Al-Maghrib is delivering packed courses weekend after weekend while our institutions and its graduates (Alims and Alimahs) at least in UK do next to nothing when their efforts are placed on a graph against the huge number of Alims and Alimahs which we have.

Nobody is criticising the Ulama here but we are suggesting to look at the ailing system and management because its failing to deliver because of a few simple problems:

a) Lack of Vision/Objective: There is NO UNIFIED vision or objective of Deobandees in UK? I mean seriously simple questions like why are we here? What are we doing? What do we hope to achieve in the next few years? Short-term? Mid-term? Long-term?

b) Lack of Management/Administrative skills: Ulama are not natively trained to administer/manage institutions. The only way to learn is on the job training i.e. a young boy enters a Darul-uloom and becomes a Maulana then someday he teaches and then he advances UNTIL eventually he heads the Darul-uloom? Is that effective in today’s climate? We have people who spend a lifetime teaching management and administration. Simple point is that if you pick up the phone and leave a message for someone at a British Darul-uloom, chances are that it won’t get answered. If you send an email it won’t get responded to. And if you don’t speak Urdu then Allah (SWT) help you trying to make initial contact

c) Institutional Goals and Objectives: What are your graduates supposed to achieve? A young man or a woman puts 6-7 years of hard work and then how are you supposed to mould their personality. Military is able to mould personalities in 4 months of training, boarding Schools do it over a few years…What do Darul-ulooms want to do with the hearts and minds of a young boy or a girl?

d) Feedback and Scrutiny: Without feedback and independent scrutiny you cannot improve anything and there is no such in Darul-ulooms. In fact there is no independent anything!

e) Indian/Pakistani Culture: Those who run these Darul-ulooms are mainly graduates from India/Pakistan and so they have taken the techniques which they acquired during their time over 40-50 years ago and applied it lock, stock and barrel in UK. Do they work? Indian/Pakistanees with a Deobandi mindset get by BUT it’s a major TURNOFF for Arabs/Reverts and even 2nd/3rd generation Asians.

This is a brief summary and you are free to disagree with it.

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 12:48 PM
unc colonel you said the same thing in so many posts man! thats not my field and liks bro xs says i am too young to meddle in big ppls affairs ike heads of darul ulooms. I think u might be big timer on that level, i dont know. But i am def not. So not going to poke my nose into the matters that i dont nkow much about. Lots of other members do it but i'm not gonna.

Bro xs, i'm supposed to be replying back to u, but i cant stop giggling over what u write. U make me laff bro. No offense but i just imagine you sitting there with a big beard and long hair and dark eys with adead serious look on ur face shaking ur head at my posts. So chill out bro. I'm not issuing afatwa against u or owt. were all cool. Dont worry bout it.

@ bro need no name. Thnx but i dont even know what language to ask mr ggogle to translate from. Help!

marco100
09-04-2010, 01:07 PM
unc colonel you said the same thing in so many posts man! thats not my field and liks bro xs says i am too young to meddle in big ppls affairs ike heads of darul ulooms. I think u might be big timer on that level, i dont know. But i am def not. So not going to poke my nose into the matters that i dont nkow much about. Lots of other members do it but i'm not gonna.

Bro xs, i'm supposed to be replying back to u, but i cant stop giggling over what u write. U make me laff bro. No offense but i just imagine you sitting there with a big beard and long hair and dark eys with adead serious look on ur face shaking ur head at my posts. So chill out bro. I'm not issuing afatwa against u or owt. were all cool. Dont worry bout it.

@ bro need no name. Thnx but i dont even know what language to ask mr ggogle to translate from. Help!

:salam:

You've proved the point of the article. In fact you've clarified it in such crystal clear terms for those who can understand.

You're the living emobodiment of EXACTLY what the author talks about.

Can you also maintain some haya befitting of a muslim woman please, for your own sanity or just stay quiet? Otherwise you'll get reported and banned.

You should also apologise to brother xs11ax for the mocking tone you're using.

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 02:02 PM
No chance of an apology mate unless you show me exactly what I did wrong. Disagreed with your friend? Is that all. Cant take it? This is why ppl like you show learn how to give dawah properly. If you want to make me understand a point do it the way bro colonel and sudoku did to me: WITHOUT FINGER POINTING OR PATRONIZING.

FYI I am not an alima or even a quarter of an alima or even a tenth of one. I go to uni and live away from home bcoz I have no choice at the moment. but I have a dream to leave everything and go and study islam. I hope it will make me more understanding of the views of ppl like you who act like a bossy headmaster with a cane.

Btw, the article is about Pakistani alimahs who are probabaly all influenced by the pakistani culture of being a bit loud and in ur face. I know a few Brittish alimah. I dont think any of them wud go about with sticks and poles shouting and chanting. Not all women are like that. If anyine thinks they are then that is stereotyping and male chauvenism. Typical, looking downo n women and tut tutting but not bothering about yourself.

Leave you all to it mates. Allah be with you all and give you all some hikmah.

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 02:08 PM
No chance of an apology mate unless you show me exactly what I did wrong. Disagreed with your friend? Is that all. Cant take it? This is why ppl like you show learn how to give dawah properly. If you want to make me understand a point do it the way bro colonel and sudoku did to me: WITHOUT FINGER POINTING OR PATRONIZING.

FYI I am not an alima or even a quarter of an alima or even a tenth of one. I go to uni and live away from home bcoz I have no choice at the moment. but I have a dream to leave everything and go and study islam. I hope it will make me more understanding of the views of ppl like you who act like a bossy headmaster with a cane.

Btw, the article is about Pakistani alimahs who are probabaly all influenced by the pakistani culture of being a bit loud and in ur face. I know a few Brittish alimah. I dont think any of them wud go about with sticks and poles shouting and chanting. Not all women are like that. If anyine thinks they are then that is stereotyping and male chauvenism. Typical, looking downo n women and tut tutting but not bothering about yourself.

Leave you all to it mates. Allah be with you all and give you all some hikmah.

:ws:

I change my mind due to new information. In your case YOU SHOULD JOIN a Madrasa and become an Alimah because you fall into one of the categories which I mentioned earlier.

And you should do so ASAP. You should discuss the matter with Naik Sisters and gain access to a Darul-uloom ASAP.

This is just my personal opinion.

:jazak:

The Deen
09-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Who organises Al Maghrib / Al Kauthar courses? The Salafi 'Ulama or non-'Alims?

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Who organises Al Maghrib / Al Kauthar courses? The Salafi 'Ulama or non-'Alims?

:ws:

Many of the Al-Maghrib teachers are from Salafi Dawah and if you know the situation in UK where massive numbers of Deobandi boys & girls are flocking to attend their courses then my Sister in Islam you have the right to be very concerned.

marco100
09-04-2010, 02:15 PM
No chance of an apology mate unless you show me exactly what I did wrong. Disagreed with your friend? Is that all. Cant take it? This is why ppl like you show learn how to give dawah properly. If you want to make me understand a point do it the way bro colonel and sudoku did to me: WITHOUT FINGER POINTING OR PATRONIZING.

FYI I am not an alima or even a quarter of an alima or even a tenth of one. I go to uni and live away from home bcoz I have no choice at the moment. but I have a dream to leave everything and go and study islam. I hope it will make me more understanding of the views of ppl like you who act like a bossy headmaster with a cane.

Btw, the article is about Pakistani alimahs who are probabaly all influenced by the pakistani culture of being a bit loud and in ur face. I know a few Brittish alimah. I dont think any of them wud go about with sticks and poles shouting and chanting. Not all women are like that. If anyine thinks they are then that is stereotyping and male chauvenism. Typical, looking downo n women and tut tutting but not bothering about yourself.

Leave you all to it mates. Allah be with you all and give you all some hikmah.

:salam: the fact that you can't even address muslims first with salams says a lot in my book. Secondly, I don't know what university you go to, but if you can't grasp the context of the article and apply it, then that is an oxymoron in your arrogant tone where you request others to apply "hikmah".

Brother xs11ax is not my "mate" but he is my "brother" in Islam. Just because someone doesn't conform to YOUR view of the world, they're suddenly a "chauvinist"????? This is logic in your book??? ;)

I find it interesting that you always have to have the last word. You said on a number of occasions that you're "leaving" but then can't help yourself.....

It's a fascinating insight into your character and again, how well that article applies to some people...

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 02:17 PM
What category is that? I'm not an orphan :-) I left my home city to come to uni and go back home on weekends. Living with some mates in a rented house, not on campus anymore.

The Deen
09-04-2010, 02:18 PM
:ws:

Many of the Al-Maghrib teachers are from Salafi Dawah and if you know the situation in UK where massive numbers of Deobandi boys & girls are flocking to attend their courses then my Sister in Islam you have the right to be very concerned.

Assalamu Alaykum,

Apologies, I should have written more clearly. What I mean is, do their scholars (the Salafi scholars) organise the courses or do the non-scholar Salafis organise them?

A long time ago I signed up to Muhammad al-Shareef's emails and didn't really know much about him but he used to send out one hadeeth every week with a little explanation that felt very relevant to life. On top of that, his emails almost sound personal when he invites the subscribers to his courses and gives beneficial lessons in those emails. I know a lot of our sisters send those emails around to each other as they are easy to understand and relevant. That in turn encourages people to sign up to his courses and attend.

I guess what we're looking for is as you've mentioned in your posts: one Deobandi organisation in the UK - this organisation can consist of people from a range of backgrounds. People who send out emails like Al Maghrib, and scholars who can teach and answer questions efficiently. But it seems the opposite is happening with us. Instead of coming under one umbrella, more and more people/'Ulama want to establish their own thing and not come together under one banner to spread deen.

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 02:20 PM
Whatever marco111! . I'll leave the forum when I want to . Its not your private property. Everyone has a right to be here.
This is my last word. So go ahead and write somethin else patronising about me if you want the last word. I'm fine with that. I only came back here again so see colonels answer.

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 02:22 PM
What category is that? I'm not an orphan :-) I left my home city to come to uni and go back home on weekends. Living with some mates in a rented house, not on campus anymore.

:ws:

You are away from your home city and renting a place with mates so being in a Girls Darul-uloom is no different to your current scenario EXCEPT that you will be in an Islamic environment and as you learn and increase your closeness to Allah (SWT) you will make the correct choices which will conform to the Sunnah and change your life for the better.

In your situation being in a Girls Darul-uloom will help you become "Naik"

happinessx100
09-04-2010, 02:24 PM
Ok. Gerrit now. Thanx

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 02:27 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Apologies, I should have written more clearly. What I mean is, do their scholars (the Salafi scholars) organise the courses or do the non-scholar Salafis organise them?

A long time ago I signed up to Muhammad al-Shareef's emails and didn't really know much about him but he used to send out one hadeeth every week with a little explanation that felt very relevant to life. On top of that, his emails almost sound personal when he invites the subscribers to his courses and gives beneficial lessons in those emails. I know a lot of our sisters send those emails around to each other as they are easy to understand and relevant. That in turn encourages people to sign up to his courses and attend.

:ws:

AlMaghrib offers a range of courses so the organisers and teachers are different depending on the kind of course being offered but almost exclusievly they belong to Salafi Dawah with a few exceptions like Imam Suhaib Webb because Al-Maghrib are big now and offer to pay their staff lucratively other can join in and their reach is pretty big.

But their approach to Aqeedah & Fiqh is exclusively Salafi!

Their business approach and advertisement is very professional and designed to lure people into their programs and courses something Deobandees can't even imagine let alone try to implement.



I guess what we're looking for is as you've mentioned in your posts: one Deobandi organisation in the UK - this organisation can consist of people from a range of backgrounds. People who send out emails like Al Maghrib, and scholars who can teach and answer questions efficiently. But it seems the opposite is happening with us. Instead of coming under one umbrella, more and more people/'Ulama want to establish their own thing and not come together under one banner to spread deen.

:-) Wow! Somone is actually awake :-)

The Deen
09-04-2010, 02:38 PM
:ws:

AlMaghrib offers a range of courses so the organisers and teachers are different depending on the kind of course being offered but almost exclusievly they belong to Salafi Dawah with a few exceptions like Imam Suhaib Webb because Al-Maghrib are big now and offer to pay their staff lucratively other can join in and their reach is pretty big.

But their approach to Aqeedah & Fiqh is exclusively Salafi!

Their business approach and advertisement is very professional and designed to lure people into their programs and courses something Deobandees can't even imagine let alone try to implement.



:-) Wow! There is an Alimah in UK who is actually awake :-)

Assalamu Alaykum,

I am not an 'Aalimah but I have certainly seen what Al Maghrib has done, although I don't know too much about how and who. But I've seen too many posters with a big free sign (sisters events) and a lot of sisters get drawn to that easily.


:salam:

I honestly don't see the wisdom in that unless it was forming a khilafah. That's something else of course but everyone operating under one organization is a recipe for failure in my honest opinion. There should be mashawarat within the ulama so they can focus jointly on certain issues but they should work independently in their own circles of ulama and communities to produce real results. Al-Maghrib is just hype and good marketing. Doesn't mean they are necessarily producing the right type of results.

I don't think they have to come under one as in always working together. But basically one main body which can be responsible for inviting scholars to do these weekly/weekend courses and advertise and invite people as much as they can and provide beneficial results.

For example, let's say it is called "Al-Sunni" (made-up, just take the name).

Now we know there are many 'Ulama in London such as Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf, or in Leicester such as Shaykh Riyadh ul Haq. This Al-Sunni organisation can invite these scholars for courses instead of having loads of courses from different places e.g. Al Kawthar Academy presents, Turath presents, blah presents.

Maybe the success of Al Maghrib and Al Kauthar is that they have well-known Salafi scholars but all under one organisation name. I do agree that Turath, Al Kawthar Academy etc. can have their own courses too but if it was done under Al-Sunni or whatever people want to call it then the name will be more recognised and that way more people will want to attend.

Imagine someone not so practising, they want to start learning about Islam and barely know Arabic words, they're going to start getting confused remembering all the names of these organisations and trying to work out which one is right and which one is wrong. Once the course takes place, each individual 'Aalim can refer the attendees to their organisation.

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 02:50 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

I am not an 'Aalimah but I have certainly seen what Al Maghrib has done, although I don't know too much about how and who. But I've seen too many posters with a big free sign (sisters events) and a lot of sisters get drawn to that easily.



I don't think they have to come under one as in always working together. But basically one main body which can be responsible for inviting scholars to do these weekly/weekend courses and advertise and invite people as much as they can and provide beneficial results.

For example, let's say it is called "Al-Sunni" (made-up, just take the name).

Now we know there are many 'Ulama in London such as Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf, or in Leicester such as Shaykh Riyadh ul Haq. This Al-Sunni organisation can invite these scholars for courses instead of having loads of courses from different places e.g. Al Kawthar Academy presents, Turath presents, blah presents.

Maybe the success of Al Maghrib and Al Kauthar is that they have well-known Salafi scholars but all under one organisation name. I do agree that Turath, Al Kawthar Academy etc. can have their own courses too but if it was done under Al-Sunni or whatever people want to call it then the name will be more recognised and that way more people will want to attend.

Imagine someone not so practising, they want to start learning about Islam and barely know Arabic words, they're going to start getting confused remembering all the names of these organisations and trying to work out which one is right and which one is wrong. Once the course takes place, each individual 'Aalim can refer the attendees to their organisation.

:ws:

May Allah reward you for getting the picture.

Individual (unkown) efforts will have the same results as your "The Deen" initiative i.e. in order for a massive Deobandi Knowledge Revolution to work in UK it needs to be done from the top. Not necessarily the top doing it but the top endorsing it and being part of the Shura.

The courses and seminars can be centralised or de-centralised or both as the Shura decide according to the circumstances.

As they say "The proof is in the pudding". We will know when the Darul-uloom system is WORKING EFFECTIVELY by looking at their graduates and their involvement in their communities and their efforts for the deen. When you see our Alims and Alimahs adopting all HALAL means at their disposal to PUSH the message through to the rest of the Muslims basically cascading it downwards you will know that the Darul-uloom system is WORKING EFFECTIVELY

Until then Brothers & Sisters will start things like the "The Deen" initiative with sincere intentions and some will visit/use it once in a while but largely it will a drop in an ocean. Eventually sincere and good Brothers & Sisters will give up because their drop in the Ocean will neither be appreciated nor properly utilised.

Off course our reward is with Allah (SWT) but everyone needs a little pat on the back once in a while :-)

The Deen
09-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Are you basically saying you would like to see more work done by the graduates so we can see that in the UK, the work that the Darul 'Ulooms are doing is actually successful?

If so, how do you expect that to happen: by the scholars pushing themselves or by non-Scholars helping and pushing the 'Alims to do more work within the community?

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 03:19 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Are you basically saying you would like to see more work done by the graduates so we can see that in the UK, the work that the Darul 'Ulooms are doing is actually successful?

If so, how do you expect that to happen: by the scholars pushing themselves or by non-Scholars helping and pushing the 'Alims to do more work within the community?

:ws:

In places like Leicester, Bolton, Blackburn, Bradford, Dewsbury etc there are many hundreds of Young Alims in communities to the extent in many Masajid at any given time there are 10+ Alims in Salah. When you look at the programs offered at these Masajid there are hardly ANY!

• The regular feature in most Deobandi Masajid is Ta’leem which is usually done by the Imam
• The “in-thing” for the last few years is mini-Taleem after every Salah on the format of 1-minute Madrasa of Maulana Abrarul-Haq Hardoi (RA) e.g. a Mas’ala or two is told to the congregation
• Many Masajid have Tajweed lessons for Adults but not all of them
• Many Masajid have Dhik’r Majalis supplemented by “in-thing” for the last few years which is Salat-O-Salam Majlis (Thursday nights usually)
• Minority have Arabic Lessons
• Minority have Qur’aan Tafseer
• Even smaller minority have any Hadeeth Lessons and if they do they are usually read from established books with commentaries read verbatim which are written in an Indian/Paki setting and context

I don’t have any facts or figures actually nobody does but vast majority of these Ulama are severally underutilised. How come an American organisation like Al-Maghrib is able to get into Bardford and deliver packed house lectures when Bardford literally has hundreds of Native Ulama who know the scene and know the communities?

Coming from USA I can tell you that almost all of Al-Maghrib tutors have a very heavy presence in their local communities and they are actually catapulted to “National or International fame” based on their local work in their respective communities.

Our Ulama spend 6-7 in a Darul-uloom setting and then come back and:
a) Either teach in Maktabs
b) OR Get some sort of qualification/skill/job because they have to feed their families
c) OR some Masha’Allah get involved in Islamic Schools

I discussed Point (b) with Maulana Bilal and Maulana Abdur-Raheem back in 2000 (or 2001) that you have been graduating all these people for decades and all new graduates have the same issues:

1) How I am going to get married? Or maybe he is already engaged…
2) How am I going to afford a family?
3) How am I going to use what I have learned? OR How am I going to live an Islamic lifestyle?

Same basic questions cross the minds of EVERY YOUNG ALIM. Same basic questions cross the mind of a practising Muslim boy who graduates from a university because human nature is the same.

Any boy who gets into a Darul-uloom and then puts in 6-7 years is a rough-cut-diamond which the community needs to care of
and nurture and address his basic needs. Instead he gets bogged down with issues or maybe doesn’t get encouraged or maybe doesn’t have the initiatives and hardly benefits the community where he came from.

Darul-ulooms repeat the same procedure year in and year out, its their system which is FAILING to take care of the graduates which is failing communities which is allowing Al-Maghrib to move into the vacuum.

It’s a simple issue of supply and demand. As more Muslims begin to wake up and try to live their life according to Sunnah they DEMAND their Islamic needs to be met. When the graduates don’t or won’t SUPPLY , somebody else will and in this case its Al-Maghrib or XYZ.

Darul-uloom system needs to look at why their graduates are UNABLE to SUPPLY the DEMANDS of the local communities i.e. what is lacking!

Simple, pimple.

The Deen
09-04-2010, 05:15 PM
Darul-uloom system needs to look at why their graduates are UNABLE to SUPPLY the DEMANDS of the local communities i.e. what is lacking!

Simple, pimple.

Jazakallah. I do understand all of that but that means at the end of the day, all of this needs to go to the Darul 'Ulooms but who will do that? I believe I've read in your posts your attempts to help them by giving your suggestions but nothing happens, so instead can't the 'Ulama on this forum, who have studied in these Darul 'Ulooms convey the message instead, they may have a better chance? Or is that not simple? I can say from what I've seen from graduates, and I'm talking about the females here, is that compared to the earlier graduates in the UK, the standard of teaching and tarbiyyah is not as high in the Madaris so when they come out - what do they expect to give to others?

ENIGMA
09-04-2010, 05:51 PM
I concur with Colonel. The problem is effort. Imams/scholars want a ready made community and maybe expect everything on a plate. Time,effort,hardwork etc is required from the scholars in their local community to establish these classes etc. That requires time on their part and sheer bloody hard work. And when they look at they are being paid,some may feel its not worth the effort.

Unfortunately,I know many alims whose aim as soon as they got farig was to cement themselves a job. And teaching in the madrassa is more of a supplement to their wage.

I also blame the public for trying to keep the status quo. 'Jesa hai aisa chalnay doh' attitude is also a major stumbling block. I know scholars who ahve taken a lead on various issues such as the moon issue and their have been villified.

muminah
09-04-2010, 05:58 PM
I think one point to bear in mind is the pay scale. We are finding that high calibre aalims instead of working in the community, are forced to work as Imams in prison and hospital etc, and of course in other professions, because they of course have their own life and families to feed.

Its not just about effort. Its about support and inspiration from their top teachers. If the darul ulooms taught their students how to serve the community, they would do it that way. An instiutional change is required.

muminah
09-04-2010, 06:01 PM
I also blame the public for trying to keep the status quo. 'Jesa hai aisa chalnay doh' attitude is also a major stumbling block. I know scholars who ahve taken a lead on various issues such as the moon issue and their have been villified.

I don't have a problem with the moon issue at all. But I really feel there are many more important issues that the ulamaa could work on instead of the moon issue. I have lived in the south london muslim community, and its just sad that the efforts of some aalims here are at times solely focused on this issue. There are much more important issues to work on.

meelash
09-04-2010, 06:33 PM
It's very easy to blame large abstracts, like "the ulama" or "the public". The reality is, everything start (and ends) with individuals. Even if something like "the Ulama" were to get better as a whole, it would be the efforts of individual ulama that led to the change, not some magical switch to change the whole group at once. The real question is, "What are you and I doing?" If you believe there are too many 'aalims with bad qualities, then become an 'aalim of good quality, make your children ulamaa of good quality, encourage your friends to become 'ulamaa of good quality, or all of the above. Then you will tilt the scale in the correct direction. Always complaining that the people of sacrifice are not sacrificing enough is counter-productive.

This is just a reminder to myself and others who may be faulty, I'm sure that the other posters are already making sacrifice in their own ways, and just offering sincere advice to the 'ulamaa.

sudoku
09-04-2010, 06:39 PM
It's very easy to blame large abstracts, like "the ulama" or "the public". The reality is, everything start (and ends) with individuals. Even if something like "the Ulama" were to get better as a whole, it would be the efforts of individual ulama that led to the change, not some magical switch to change the whole group at once. The real question is, "What are you and I doing?" If you believe there are too many 'aalims with bad qualities, then become an 'aalim of good quality, make your children ulamaa of good quality, encourage your friends to become 'ulamaa of good quality, or all of the above. Then you will tilt the scale in the correct direction. Always complaining that the people of sacrifice are not sacrificing enough is counter-productive.

This is just a reminder to myself and others who may be faulty, I'm sure that the other posters are already making sacrifice in their own ways, and just offering sincere advice to the 'ulamaa.

:salam:

Two :thumbsup:. :mash: couldn't have said it better myself!

The Deen
09-04-2010, 07:27 PM
I concur with Colonel. The problem is effort. Imams/scholars want a ready made community and maybe expect everything on a plate. Time,effort,hardwork etc is required from the scholars in their local community to establish these classes etc. That requires time on their part and sheer bloody hard work. And when they look at they are being paid,some may feel its not worth the effort.

Unfortunately,I know many alims whose aim as soon as they got farig was to cement themselves a job. And teaching in the madrassa is more of a supplement to their wage.

I also blame the public for trying to keep the status quo. 'Jesa hai aisa chalnay doh' attitude is also a major stumbling block. I know scholars who ahve taken a lead on various issues such as the moon issue and their have been villified.

I don't think the 'Ulama can be totally blamed. It's not about having everything on the plate either. Teaching requires effort, preparation etc. and all that is hard work, it would make it easier if someone else with the skills could organise the course and find a suitable venue etc. Or even if one 'Alim teaches and another organises it, if they're not too keen on teaching a number of people at once and so on.

daywalk3r
09-04-2010, 07:33 PM
I don't have a problem with the moon issue at all. But I really feel there are many more important issues that the ulamaa could work on instead of the moon issue. I have lived in the south london muslim community, and its just sad that the efforts of some aalims here are at times solely focused on this issue. There are much more important issues to work on.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The Deen
09-04-2010, 08:06 PM
Mufti Abdur Rahman's Masjid has a lot of good efforts for both brothers and sisters, this needs to be implented in other Masjids too, that way there will be graduates who will get the opportunity to teach, and attendees who will have the opportunity to learn from authentic sources.

UmHasan
09-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Sis Quraatulain is right in that teaching requires a lot of time and effort. A good teacher /muqarrir puts in many hours of research and preparation before teaching and this in addition to earning a living is often more than enough for one person to handle.

Although there may be hundreds of aalims in the UK, the Muslim population is also increasing day by day. If the aalims are expected to teach at these events AND organise them, AND earn an income to supplement the wage received from the Masjid AND see to the needs of the family then this is expecting too much and obviously, something will end up being neglected. But if the public devoted some of their time and resources into helping organise events/ programmes/ classes this would ensure a much better delivery.

Every person has a skill that can be used to further the cause of Islam. You may be good at designing leaflets, booking venues, advertising, arranging equipment, catering etc. All these skills can be used to help arrange events and classes. If nothing else, simple jobs such as cleaning, running around doing odd jobs etc will all contribute towards making Al Magrib style classes and events possible.

Another problem in some areas is the public wanting everything for free. If the public do not dig into their pockets and donate to fund these events the aalims will inevitably end up working for deen part time only.

Yes, unfortunately many aalims do not spend any time at all spreading the knowledge they devoted their youth in acquiring but its about a combined effort. The aalims need to be freed up to do more for deen and the public need to donate time, money and free skills to support projects.

UmHasan
09-04-2010, 08:46 PM
Also an umbrella body under which all our organisations work is an exciting but ambitious plan. There are lots of practical issues that spring to my mind when envisioning it but I don’t think it’s an impossible feat. However if it happens, it would be a phenomenal accomplishment. I am told that some of the top UK scholars and heads of Idarahs did work together under the Jamiat Ulamah Britain at one point in recent history put then opted out after the organisation went in another direction.
I think a more realistic starting point would be to connect under one umbrella on a regional/ local level. This would be much easy to manage and once that was established, they could move onto connecting under a national level.

A few years ago, the ulamah where I live did begin to gather the Madaaris together under one board. It was a revolutionary step and the ulamah worked together excellently while it lasted. Unfortunately, due to other commitments it could not continue but I do hear they are planning on reviving it.

There are also other efforts and initiatives to bring all the ulamah /idaarahs together. For example, the ulamah of the city meet for a monthly meeting every month in which local and national issues are discussed. It is well attended and successful.
So all is not lost. In the meantime, the individual efforts of idaarahs and ulamah are doing much for the local communities and this is worth supporting.

sudoku
09-04-2010, 08:51 PM
:salam:

Everything needs to start from the bottom at the beginning; the only place where you start at the top is when digging a hole.

I know someone who loves the Qur'aan, both reading and teaching it. Along with his normal work, he would teach on the weekends in his free time, he would even go to the jails where he lived and teach the inmates there. Slowly but surely he began a set weekend class, which gradually grew to such an extent that :mash: now he has his own onsite and online academy where he teaches both hifdh and qiraat. One sincere person is more than enough to start something.

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 09:52 PM
For the record I have neither disrespected Ulama nor blamed them for anything. I keep emphasing management issues which are to blame for almost all of these problem.

1) Individual Ulama are absolved of these problems to a large extent because their education DOES NOT prepare them to deal with the challenges ahead. The system is not preparing the graduates adequately

2) Individual laymen are absolved because they have NO INPUT or SAY in how Darul-ulooms are run. Public is only contacted when an organisation is in massive debt and needs to pay it off. No input is EVER WELCOME as to how Darul-ulooms are doing or what can be improved etc.

Public donates money and deals with the product i.e. graduates and thats about it. I DO NOT KNOW if people were EVER invited for an input or how to improve the work of Ulama in their communities etc.

Unlike universities or public Services where public input is all appreciated.

Starting point is Islamic organisations coming together but its a pipe-dream at the moment. At this point I would like to cross over to another thread and highlight this post:


:salam:

Uncle Colonel, do you think the blame lies squarely at the graduates' door? Like you said, they come out of Darul Ulooms feeling exactly the same as university graduates do - number 1 priority is sustaining themselves and their family. I think there needs to be a strong interest within communities of having local scholars share knowledge locally - centres need to be set up which cater for the admittedly knowledge-hungry masses, but those masses first need to be shown what lies at their door. Using Leicester as an example, everyone knows how rich our community is is scholars, but no-one knows how to approach these people unless it's a case of approaching the Imam after salah. Masaajid provide some education, but again, it is usually the imam's responsibility and the organization is haphazard, to say the least. If you weren't a 5-times-a-day attendee at the masjid, you really wouldn't know about the all gatherings which take place.

There are exceptions, I would not like to name names but there are a couple of Aalims who have done a fantastic job of making themselves approachable (and I'm sure you know who I'm talking about) and also provding well-catered-for, well-advertised and engaging regular events, but they are few and far between. The rest of our scholars just don't know what to do - there is no institutional backbone from which they can project themselves. Now, it's easy to say that the responsibility for creating such an institution lies in the hands of the scholars themselves, but I somehow think support from the wider community as a whole, both financial and physical, is an essential starting point. I am completely with you on the issue of lavish masaajid and the debt entailed therewith, especially when our real wealth - the people of knowledge - are not being given what they need, nor fulfilling the trusts we should rightly be placing in them - ie. using their knowledge for the benefit of the masses.

The scholars have vision, I am sure, but if we do nothing to facilitate them, we cannot then complain about how little they are benefiting us. Yes, it takes time and hard work to organize events which rival Al Maghrib in scale and professionalism. The communities need to be made to understand this - they need to be shown the potential that lies in our young scholars, they need to understand the importance of local solutions to local problems, they need to know that yes, it will take a few years and much investment of time and money to bring these things to a level where we have institutions we can be proud of and do not need to begin importing seminars from elsewhere, along with all the problems that can bring...

:ws:

Takes time??? Darul-ulooms in UK:

1) Predate Al-Maghrib by at least two decades
2) Have local knowledge
3) Have control over a lot of people

I have nothing against Al-Maghrib as they are serving the Deen of Allah (SWT) to the best of their abilities and intentions but amongst those who run Darul-ulooms and those who have graduated from them should take some time and ponder over the sucess of Al-Maghrib.

How can a foreign organisation come on your turf and completely out-do you in your local communities. Think in terms of business and strategy. I do see that Alims and Alimahs are getting up and noticing Al-Maghrib encroaching on their turf (not just SF :-) I Know Ulama are discussing this) but its time to ask some hard questions about what Darul-ulooms did in two decades and the quality of their graduates.

INSTEAD

What I see is people making excuses

BECAUSE

At the end of the day those run Darul-uloom are CONSIDERED INFALLIBLE in practical terms:

a) They can do no wrong
b) A Non-Alim (like me or anyone else) CANNOT possibly say anything worthy of attention and CANNOT possibly contribute positively to the discussion.

:-) Actually there is no bloody discussion :-) We are just wasting our time on a forum. Those how holds the reins of power couldn't care less! There is no discussion my Brothers & Sisters, no discussion because nobody is listening. :-)

The situation is absolutely HOPELESS because when the next generation (of Ulama) take over they will do very similar things because Hazrat XYZ did similar things in their life.

Success of HT caused masic panic amongst Deobandi Ulama in the 90's because many Young Gujratees from Deobandi families crossed over and now its Al-Maghrib doing the same (i.e. Young Gujratees from Deobandi families attending in massive numbers) and I heard it from an Alim 2-3 days ago...Tomorrow it will be Government backed Secular & Sufi organisations who will be better organised...


I don't have a problem with the moon issue at all. But I really feel there are many more important issues that the ulamaa could work on instead of the moon issue. I have lived in the south london muslim community, and its just sad that the efforts of some aalims here are at times solely focused on this issue. There are much more important issues to work on.



:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

:salam: Respected Brother & Sister,

You are failing to see the big picture. It isn't about the moonsighting issue specifically BUT a process issue.

An issue has been allowed to linger and fester for over two decades while you know that professionally most organisations would have agreed on some sort of a way forward, an uneasy consensus.

It's about how it has been mishandled. Don't concentrate on specific issues rather the way the issues are raised and addressed. I was hoping that by quoting moonsighting most readers will make the connection with Management Failure and understand. I didn't mean to discuss moonsighting specifically as an issue rather as a type of issue.

Off course there are bigger issues

xs11ax
09-04-2010, 10:12 PM
:salam:

mashallah uncle really does have a point there.

a big shake up is definately required.

but who will do this?

The Deen
09-04-2010, 10:13 PM
I just saw a friend who said to me "Al Kauthar have their event this weekend innit?". I was thinking "er... so?" Our Masajid could probably easily facilitate these types of events Deobandi styles but someone who has the position to be able to convince those in the commitee or wherever should say something to them. It seems we have ideas on this forum, now we just need the right people or individuals to help further it. I have one Scholar member in mind on this forum for London. : )

Colonel_Hardstone
09-04-2010, 10:25 PM
I just saw a friend who said to me "Al Kauthar have their event this weekend innit?". I was thinking "er... so?" Our Masajid could probably easily facilitate these types of events Deobandi styles but someone who has the position to be able to convince those in the commitee or wherever should say something to them. It seems we have ideas on this forum, now we just need the right people or individuals to help further it. I have one Scholar member in mind on this forum for London. : )

:salam:

To be honest and with a professional hat on with Post-graduate business qualification, nearly two decades of professional experience behind me and after consultation with a lot of good professional brothers with savvy business knowledge and investigating those who have attended Al-Maghrib courses


With the resources and public support at our disposal in UK Al-Maghrib can be severly dented in less then 6 months.

And I say that with 100% CONFIDENCE in Allah (SWT) and with trust in the professional abilities of people within our communities.

With my reality hat onNothing will happen. By the time token, de-spirited efforts are made by Ulama here and there Al-Maghrib would have moved up a few notches.

Those who can fix the problem WILL NEVER be allowed to give their input and if they are given a chance their recommendations will NEVER be implemented or thoroughly considered.


What is needed is a TOTAL SYSTEMATIC REVIEW of the entire Darul-uloom System in UK from teaching in Urdu to the process of ordering Toilet papers, look under the desks where the students stick their chewing gum to the Library where the Sharh of Saheeh Bukhari is kept....

If the professional approach isn't feasible and valid THEN one or two shining star Shaykhs like Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadhul-Haq should be thoroughly examined and it should be learned as to what they are doing RIGHT and their examples should be broken down process by process, strand by strand and publicised. They came from the same system so what made them excel?

Again I have nothing against Al-Maghrib or their teachers or the work they are doing and may Allah (SWT) reward them for their sincere

muminah
09-04-2010, 10:28 PM
At the end of the day those run Darul-uloom are CONSIDERED INFALLIBLE in practical terms:

a) They can do no wrong
b) A Non-Alim (like me or anyone else) CANNOT possibly say anything worthy of attention and CANNOT possibly contribute positively to the discussion.



True. If Hadhrat doesn't give the nod its not gonna happen (some of you probably know what I'm talking about). End of story.

muminah
09-04-2010, 10:33 PM
If the professional approach isn't feasible and valid THEN one or two shining star Shaykhs like Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadhul-Haq should be thoroughly examined and it should be learned as to what they are doing RIGHT and their examples should be broken down process by process, strand by strand and publicised. They came from the same system so what made them excel?



They excelled due to their own efforts. Him, Shaykh Abdur Rahman, and Mufti Ibn Adam were top students in their times. They had that edge even when they were studying. They all went from DU and studied further.

insufficient
09-04-2010, 10:34 PM
For the record I have neither disrespected Ulama nor blamed them for anything. I keep emphasing management issues which are to blame for almost all of these problem.

1) Individual Ulama are absolved of these problems to a large extent because their education DOES NOT prepare them to deal with the challenges ahead. The system is not preparing the graduates adequately

2) Individual laymen are absolved because they have NO INPUT or SAY in how Darul-ulooms are run. Public is only contacted when an organisation is in massive debt and needs to pay it off. No input is EVER WELCOME as to how Darul-ulooms are doing or what can be improved etc.

Public donates money and deals with the product i.e. graduates and thats about it. I DO NOT KNOW if people were EVER invited for an input or how to improve the work of Ulama in their communities etc.

Unlike universities or public Services where public input is all appreciated.

Starting point is Islamic organisations coming together but its a pipe-dream at the moment. At this point I would like to cross over to another thread and highlight this post:



Takes time??? Darul-ulooms in UK:

1) Predate Al-Maghrib by at least two decades
2) Have local knowledge
3) Have control over a lot of people

I have nothing against Al-Maghrib as they are serving the Deen of Allah (SWT) to the best of their abilities and intentions but amongst those who run Darul-ulooms and those who have graduated from them should take some time and ponder over the sucess of Al-Maghrib.

How can a foreign organisation come on your turf and completely out-do you in your local communities. Think in terms of business and strategy. I do see that Alims and Alimahs are getting up and noticing Al-Maghrib encroaching on their turf (not just SF :-) I Know Ulama are discussing this) but its time to ask some hard questions about what Darul-ulooms did in two decades and the quality of their graduates.

INSTEAD

What I see is people making excuses

BECAUSE

At the end of the day those run Darul-uloom are CONSIDERED INFALLIBLE in practical terms:

a) They can do no wrong
b) A Non-Alim (like me or anyone else) CANNOT possibly say anything worthy of attention and CANNOT possibly contribute positively to the discussion.

:-) Actually there is no bloody discussion :-) We are just wasting our time on a forum. Those how holds the reins of power couldn't care less! There is no discussion my Brothers & Sisters, no discussion because nobody is listening. :-)

The situation is absolutely HOPELESS because when the next generation (of Ulama) take over they will do very similar things because Hazrat XYZ did similar things in their life.

Success of HT caused masic panic amongst Deobandi Ulama in the 90's because many Young Gujratees from Deobandi families crossed over and now its Al-Maghrib doing the same (i.e. Young Gujratees from Deobandi families attending in massive numbers) and I heard it from an Alim 2-3 days ago...Tomorrow it will be Government backed Secular & Sufi organisations who will be better organised...






:salam: Respected Brother & Sister,

You are failing to see the big picture. It isn't about the moonsighting issue specifically BUT a process issue.

An issue has been allowed to linger and fester for over two decades while you know that professionally most organisations would have agreed on some sort of a way forward, an uneasy consensus.

It's about how it has been mishandled. Don't concentrate on specific issues rather the way the issues are raised and addressed. I was hoping that by quoting moonsighting most readers will make the connection with Management Failure and understand. I didn't mean to discuss moonsighting specifically as an issue rather as a type of issue.

Off course there are bigger issues

:salam:

I'm constantly getting confused between this thread and that, seeing as it is pretty much the same discussion now.

You sure have given me some things to ponder on. I agree, the mentality you have mentioned is so encroached that even us, the laymen, take it for granted and are loathe to offer 'suggestions' because we know what the response will be. Your '20 years' point is interesting. I was speaking more with regards to an issue of engagement - traditional scholarship in the UK, generally, has failed to 'keep up with the times'. This touches on a lot of things Ali Al-Hanafi said in the other thread. Not that I am advocating the 'Al-Maghrib methods' as such, but times have changed and the Ulama need to be aware of this and how to deal with it. The 'time' that I was speaking of is the time taken to adapt to more attractive methods of engagement with the youth and working adults of today.

Anyway, I feel way out of my depth here, so I'll leave it at that. the more you say, Colonel Sahib, the more powerless I feel. I came into this discussion truly believing there was something you or I could do about the situation, because it is an upsetting one.

:ws:

muminah
09-04-2010, 10:36 PM
I just saw a friend who said to me "Al Kauthar have their event this weekend innit?". I was thinking "er... so?" Our Masajid could probably easily facilitate these types of events Deobandi styles but someone who has the position to be able to convince those in the commitee or wherever should say something to them. It seems we have ideas on this forum, now we just need the right people or individuals to help further it. I have one Scholar member in mind on this forum for London. : )

You are contradicting yourself. It doesn't need to be in a Mosque. Hire a venue. Anyhow I look forward to attending it inshaAllah!

The Deen
09-04-2010, 10:37 PM
Assalamu Alaykum,

Our system does lack though. Comparing education from Darul 'Ulooms/Madrasahs and universities, I feel I am ten times more equipped with what I've learnt to unversity and I know how to spread and use what I learn when I go outside. But with Madrasah, you step out and think: what next? Only those people are lucky who have real good connections with the managers and heads. But at the same time it can push a graduate to feel like, you know what, I can change something here and use my skills somewhere else. If a 'aalim stepped into a college or university and talked they would attract a large audience, just how the Salafi 'Ulama do. The problem is, not many do that. The latest talk at my old college had a large audience (females only), a Deobandi 'Aalimah, and amonsgt the audience was the female head of the Church of England. Similarly, although Moulana Yunus Dudhwala right now doesn't do many talks, I heard that last year he was invited to speak at a big conference for the NHS and a non-Muslim came all the way from Birmingham to hear his wise words, just because he was going to talk.

So br Colonel and sis sudoku are right, it doesn't take much, just effort to go out, maybe at times out of your comfort zone and put a brave cap on for a few minutes - people will flock towards our 'Ulama because what they have is knowledge.

The Deen
09-04-2010, 10:39 PM
You are contradicting yourself. It doesn't need to be in a Mosque. Hire a venue. Anyhow I look forward to attending it inshaAllah!

I didn't say it needs to be a Masjid. It was merely as an example, but one I linked to an older post. Apologies, I should have been clearer (as mentioned in sisters section I've forgotten how to communicate on forums).

Anyways, it was sort of addressing the side of: what if we don't have a venue and there are problems involved with paying for it etc. etc. etc.

ssjkakarot
09-04-2010, 10:56 PM
Asalamu alaykum,

Can somebody make a list please, who exactly are the big ulema in the UK that would need to be convinced in order to effect some sort of change?

I think the Deobandi understanding of islam is the most moderate path Alhamdulilah and the one that makes most sense. It's upsetting, however, that it seems to stay localised to the desi community.

Is it realy true that the ulema here keep things being taught in urdu?

Allah brought the deobandi understanding of Islam to the UK. The language of the UK is English and that is probably the most used language in the world. There's a tremendous opportunity to spread the ilm, noor and understanding of our deobandi scholars to the entire world if they utilised English. Really is a shame it's being missed.

xs11ax
09-04-2010, 11:24 PM
:salaam:

colonel, can you tell about your meeting with bury.

what did you say? how did they react?

:jazak:

arius
10-04-2010, 05:58 AM
I heard that Ghazi Abdul Rashid and some others on his side had lots of basharat (bushra)? They were reported to have been guided and encouraged in what they were doing in their dreams. Theirs dreams must have become true for them at levels other than the physical. Am I right?

muminah
10-04-2010, 12:05 PM
So br Colonel and sis sudoku are right, it doesn't take much, just effort to go out, maybe at times out of your comfort zone and put a brave cap on for a few minutes - people will flock towards our 'Ulama because what they have is knowledge.

That is true. And we all have an individual responsibility to give dawah etc, and I think we shouldn't forget that and just throw all the responsibility on the ulamaa. The truth is that the ulamaa don't need to organise this umbrella organisation (whether locally or nationally), we have project managers and senior managment personnel in our community who can do that, and do it well. They should organise it and then get the ulamaa on board. May Allah give us tawfeeq to serve his deen. Aameen.

seeker_of_ilm
10-04-2010, 01:13 PM
That is true. And we all have an individual responsibility to give dawah etc, and I think we shouldn't forget that and just throw all the responsibility on the ulamaa. The truth is that the ulamaa don't need to organise this umbrella organisation (whether locally or nationally), we have project managers and senior managment personnel in our community who can do that, and do it well. They should organise it and then get the ulamaa on board. May Allah give us tawfeeq to serve his deen. Aameen.

:thumbsup:



Although there may be hundreds of aalims in the UK, the Muslim population is also increasing day by day. If the aalims are expected to teach at these events AND organise them, AND earn an income to supplement the wage received from the Masjid AND see to the needs of the family then this is expecting too much and obviously, something will end up being neglected. But if the public devoted some of their time and resources into helping organise events/ programmes/ classes this would ensure a much better delivery.

I agree 100%



I think a more realistic starting point would be to connect under one umbrella on a regional/ local level. This would be much easy to manage and once that was established, they could move onto connecting under a national level.

A few years ago, the ulamah where I live did begin to gather the Madaaris together under one board. It was a revolutionary step and the ulamah worked together excellently while it lasted. Unfortunately, due to other commitments it could not continue but I do hear they are planning on reviving it.

There are also other efforts and initiatives to bring all the ulamah /idaarahs together. For example, the ulamah of the city meet for a monthly meeting every month in which local and national issues are discussed. It is well attended and successful.
So all is not lost. In the meantime, the individual efforts of idaarahs and ulamah are doing much for the local communities and this is worth supporting.

Another excellent point which I think offers realsitic and managable solutions.


It's very easy to blame large abstracts, like "the ulama" or "the public". The reality is, everything start (and ends) with individuals. Even if something like "the Ulama" were to get better as a whole, it would be the efforts of individual ulama that led to the change, not some magical switch to change the whole group at once. The real question is, "What are you and I doing?" If you believe there are too many 'aalims with bad qualities, then become an 'aalim of good quality, make your children ulamaa of good quality, encourage your friends to become 'ulamaa of good quality, or all of the above. Then you will tilt the scale in the correct direction. Always complaining that the people of sacrifice are not sacrificing enough is counter-productive.

This is just a reminder to myself and others who may be faulty

Individual efforts are much more far reaching and are the ones that have really made a difference to the UK.

The main question is what would be the point of an umbrella organisation and how would it help to spread islam better in the uk?

The Deen
10-04-2010, 01:50 PM
That is true. And we all have an individual responsibility to give dawah etc, and I think we shouldn't forget that and just throw all the responsibility on the ulamaa. The truth is that the ulamaa don't need to organise this umbrella organisation (whether locally or nationally), we have project managers and senior managment personnel in our community who can do that, and do it well. They should organise it and then get the ulamaa on board. May Allah give us tawfeeq to serve his deen. Aameen.

Yep, I've seen this mentioned many a time and it is true, efforts should be put together coming from all types of people, not one type, like the other organisations. Whatever skill a person has they should utilise for the good, like 'Ulama can teach, a graphics designer can make posters etc. or individual da'wah as well as you've mentioned.


Individual efforts are much more far reaching and are the ones that have really made a difference to the UK.

The main question is what would be the point of an umbrella organisation and how would it help to spread islam better in the uk?

An umbrella organisation would be linked to something like Al Maghrib or Al Kauthar. They have many Salafi scholars under them who have their own institutions too but at the end of the day, they will come under this "umbrella organisation" of Al Maghrib or Al Kauthar and the general masses recognise deen from this more and flock towards it.

muminah
10-04-2010, 01:51 PM
Can somebody make a list please, who exactly are the big ulema in the UK that would need to be convinced in order to effect some sort of change?

.

There are probably quite a few great ulema that need convincing, but starting with Maulana Yusuf Motala saheb would probably be a good start. He has great influence over many other scholars in the UK.

student of deen
10-04-2010, 04:14 PM
:salam:
@ happinessx100, if you want to study i recommend you dont sit down and do nothing about it, shaytan will tell you tomorrow but there is no tomorrow, i went to college till i was 18 and done a levels, when i finished i went uni for a few months and then quit and went madrassah, done my degree in law as homelearning, and almost finish my aalim course, best decision i ever made.

@ colonel sahib, imagine a jaahil like me went to my doctor and started making recommendations like prescribe this or that for such or such illness, everyone would say im stupid and arrogant. i'll apply that same principle here and say its wrong of someone who isnt an aalim to start criticising the madaaris. in my part of england theres a saying YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE PROPERLY DO IT YOURSELF. youv criticised maulana mehmood madani(his family tree joins up with Hussain RA) before without thinking, either make your own madrassah and become an aalim yourself or stop your remarks that are critical of ulema and madaaris.
on another note in some instances its better to go to boarding madrassah then day madrassah on the basis that some girls tell family that im going madrassah and they wag and go meet up boys, in strict boarding madrassah's they arent allowed out and maintain modesty. another thing is education is a must in england and the boarding madaaris are probably the best alternative. my teacher in fiqh mufti taqi uddin shamzai DB (bin mufti nizam uddin shamzai RA) has a whole 3-4 page fatwa on this issue and it depends on the family the atmosphere and other valiables. generally 99% of ulema i know(which is quite a few) say its not permitted but under extreme circumstances its allowed. in england we come under those people who are under the rule of an oppressor, because we dont have an option, we HAVE to go school.

student of deen
10-04-2010, 04:18 PM
:salam:
another thing is madaaris dont need reforming, the ulema need encouragement and responsibilities. in 5 years iv never been told to do anything EVER, other then 1 jumah 2 nikahs and a funeral. i think theres too many laymens opinions and less ulema and talabaa opinions on this thread when it concerns the ulema and talabaa.

hussainahmed
10-04-2010, 05:13 PM
im studying at the moment in darul uloom and i like many other students would agree with colonel. Madaris need to have a reveiw or account of what their ulamaa are doing and how they can be helped to work in their communities.

muminah
10-04-2010, 05:25 PM
:
@ colonel sahib, imagine a jaahil like me went to my doctor and started making recommendations like prescribe this or that for such or such illness, everyone would say im stupid and arrogant. i'll apply that same principle here and say its wrong of someone who isnt an aalim to start criticising the madaaris. in my part of england theres a saying YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE PROPERLY DO IT YOURSELF. youv criticised maulana mehmood madani(his family tree joins up with Hussain RA) before without thinking, either make your own madrassah and become an aalim yourself or stop your remarks that are critical of ulema and madaaris.


How do YOU know he isn't an aalim? Stop being so petty.

student of deen
10-04-2010, 05:31 PM
:salam:
the rant isnt directed at colonel sahib, my post is general and not specific unless stated otherwise. its not petty its being a realist. ulema know more about madaaris then the laymen and noone sees any problems. what do you propose then sister??

Ruslan
10-04-2010, 05:47 PM
There is deffo a need for ulema to excel in their potential. However they do need the support of some local to help them with their goals. Having spoken to a head of one of the main darul ulooms in the UK, it is apparent that some graduates do not even refer back to their teachers for guidance and mashwera once they graduate. Those who I have seen make changes in thier community and take a leading role have all acted with the mashwera of their ustaads even after graduating, have the support of a handful of locals who aid them in arranging events, helping with technical matters etc. Its not easy work and we should not expect results in weeks. We are not doing this for name or fame or numbers. Its quality over quantity. So honestly, we should all walk the walk, approach our local Aalims, express our desire for whatever events or seminars we want to see, offer techinical support, financial support etc and go with the mashwera of elders. One head of the darul ulooms stated its all good getting big shot names to do bayans but then what? You want local Alims to take a pivotol role and form a jamat within cities and towns who are ALWAYS physically accessible to the locals to tend to their deeni needs.

uddin
10-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Salaams
I just wanted to add, although constructive criticism can be useful, there is a lot of emphasis in the scriptures on every individual fulfilling one's own duties. The Ulama say that the Prophet (SAW) taught every individual their own deen. For example, poor people have been told not to beg at the same time as rich people being warned not to turn away beggars. For us here what is important is that the Ulama make every effort to serve their communities with whatever little or lot Allah had given them. The non-Ulama must fulfil their duties as Muslims and will have to answer individually to Allah. Let's try not to get tangled in a mud-slinging session where the participants forget their own duties.
I'm not attempting to doBad Gumaani (soo Zann) but just remind of possible satanic traps.

Colonel_Hardstone
10-04-2010, 08:22 PM
:salam:
@ happinessx100, if you want to study i recommend you dont sit down and do nothing about it, shaytan will tell you tomorrow but there is no tomorrow, i went to college till i was 18 and done a levels, when i finished i went uni for a few months and then quit and went madrassah, done my degree in law as homelearning, and almost finish my aalim course, best decision i ever made.

@ colonel sahib, imagine a jaahil like me went to my doctor and started making recommendations like prescribe this or that for such or such illness, everyone would say im stupid and arrogant. i'll apply that same principle here and say its wrong of someone who isnt an aalim to start criticising the madaaris. in my part of england theres a saying YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE PROPERLY DO IT YOURSELF. youv criticised maulana mehmood madani(his family tree joins up with Hussain RA) before without thinking, either make your own madrassah and become an aalim yourself or stop your remarks that are critical of ulema and madaaris.
on another note in some instances its better to go to boarding madrassah then day madrassah on the basis that some girls tell family that im going madrassah and they wag and go meet up boys, in strict boarding madrassah's they arent allowed out and maintain modesty. another thing is education is a must in england and the boarding madaaris are probably the best alternative. my teacher in fiqh mufti taqi uddin shamzai DB (bin mufti nizam uddin shamzai RA) has a whole 3-4 page fatwa on this issue and it depends on the family the atmosphere and other valiables. generally 99% of ulema i know(which is quite a few) say its not permitted but under extreme circumstances its allowed. in england we come under those people who are under the rule of an oppressor, because we dont have an option, we HAVE to go school.



:salam:
another thing is madaaris dont need reforming, the ulema need encouragement and responsibilities. in 5 years iv never been told to do anything EVER, other then 1 jumah 2 nikahs and a funeral. i think theres too many laymens opinions and less ulema and talabaa opinions on this thread when it concerns the ulema and talabaa.

:salam: Maulana Saheb,

With the greatest respect and humility and I hope that you don't get offended.

It is precisely to eradicate your kind of thinking that the Darul-uloom system needs reformation. I have spoken about this but let me put the catch 22 situation which you have suggested.

a) We know that Ulama need to get involved but they are not being pro-active and according to you I CAN NEITHER criticise nor recommend anything

b) You tell me to do it myself, if I do it myself you will be the first one refuting me right here that I am not an Alim so how dare I take up the work of Ulama.

c) You say that you havn't been able to do anything and Ulama need encouragment and responsibilites. What in the world does that mean? That is extremely inconsistent position. At one hand the laymen can't do anything on the other hand you want the laymen to provide you with encouragement?

So I can't do anything, can't recommend, I can't start something...What am I to do?

You don't know my background and particularly my family background and you certainly can't recollect what I said about Hazrat Madni (DB) so I leave your accusations for you to defend in front of Allah (SWT) on the day of judgement. But if you want to discuss the matter properly and thoroughly please make your accusations correctly and give me a chance to respond.

IF you are an Alim THEN Islamic Shariah DEMANDS you to CORRECT me and SHOW me my error BUT please do so in a way which I can understand and REPENT in case I have made an error as this YOUR DUTY.

:jazak:

:salam:

Howz Al Maghriq - name for the umbrella deobandi organisation

:jazak:
:Salam:

:ws:

:-) We are in no need to borrow anything from Al-Maghrib, neither their name nor their methodology :-) We have enough talent amongst us and Takawwul upon Allah (SWT) to establish the Deen of Allah (SWT).


Salaams
I just wanted to add, although constructive criticism can be useful, there is a lot of emphasis in the scriptures on every individual fulfilling one's own duties. The Ulama say that the Prophet (SAW) taught every individual their own deen. For example, poor people have been told not to beg at the same time as rich people being warned not to turn away beggars. For us here what is important is that the Ulama make every effort to serve their communities with whatever little or lot Allah had given them. The non-Ulama must fulfil their duties as Muslims and will have to answer individually to Allah. Let's try not to get tangled in a mud-slinging session where the participants forget their own duties.
I'm not attempting to doBad Gumaani (soo Zann) but just remind of possible satanic traps.

:salam:

In Islam we are supposed to seek the best:

1) Company
2) Teacher
3) Shaykh

Throughout our history laymen have travelled great distances and flocked to great Ulama and Mashaykh to seek their copmany and to benefit from them.

seeker_of_ilm
10-04-2010, 08:24 PM
How do YOU know he isn't an aalim? Stop being so petty.

Please don't turn this thread into an argument with comments like that. It may make people get defensive and argumentative. Although he is quite knowledgable, Colonel has said so many times that he is not a scholar and describes himself as a layman to make his position clear.

This is sucha beneficial thread because no one is being ridiculed or talked down to which means people are free to paticipate without fear of being told off and quitenen down. I request that you all please continue with this neneficial discussion as it is the first time we ar ebeing allowed to hear both sides of the argument instead of a one sided one.

The Fake Shaykh
11-04-2010, 05:32 AM
:salam:
another thing is madaaris dont need reforming, the ulema need encouragement and responsibilities. in 5 years iv never been told to do anything EVER, other then 1 jumah 2 nikahs and a funeral. i think theres too many laymens opinions and less ulema and talabaa opinions on this thread when it concerns the ulema and talabaa.

i wrote a reply to this but after reading brother seeker of ilm posts below decided it was not appropriate and didnt want to derail the thread, so ill save it for another time.


Please don't turn this thread into an argument with comments like that. It may make people get defensive and argumentative. Although he is quite knowledgable, Colonel has said so many times that he is not a scholar and describes himself as a layman to make his position clear.

This is sucha beneficial thread because no one is being ridiculed or talked down to which means people are free to paticipate without fear of being told off and quitenen down. I request that you all please continue with this neneficial discussion as it is the first time we ar ebeing allowed to hear both sides of the argument instead of a one sided one.

UmHasan
11-04-2010, 06:58 AM
Student of Deen raises some valid points. This is a forum of awaam not ulamah and consequently the opinions of the awaam are the ones that are the loudest. I have not read through the whole thread but upon reading through the last few pages I can see that besides myself and maybe one or two other members, no one here has ever been a long term student or a teacher of a DU. Therefore there is little or no experience/knowledge of how a Madrasah is run, managed and the process of decision making, which is maybe why there is frustration at the response of the Ulamah. (I maybe wrong as I do not know everyone's background.)

Yes, the Darul Uloom systems need reformation and many ulamah have accepted this. But I cannot see them allowing the public to go in and do the shake up for them especially when:

a) They have no experience of managing (or even attending) such organisations.

b) They do not understand the decision making process, which is based on the methods of DarulUlooms around the world and the practice of the elders.

c) They do not understand the purpose, direction and the aims of the Madaaris

d) Suggestions are offered based on secular universities which are completely different from Madaaris in so many ways.

I would like to add that I am neither criticizing or directing my post at anyone. It is a general contribution to the discussion. I apologise if anyone feels this. This is a forum with mostly brothers participating and therefore I try to keep my posts free of any sentimentality that may soften the point I am trying to convey.

EDIT: I am not at all suggesting the management of these institues ( or the ulamah in general) are infalliable or that they should not accept any sort of mashwera from the awaam. Rather, the point I am trying to convey is, that to give sound advice that can be implemented, one needs to understand the fundamental points of institutes. You can be a non alim and do that-of course. Hafez Patel Sahab DB is also not a a scholar but he understands the methodology and shares the same general vision as the founders of these institutes.

ENIGMA
11-04-2010, 02:02 PM
changed my mind.

UmHasan
11-04-2010, 02:26 PM
'Laymen' have contributed to the Darul Uloom managment and teaching system for years. In fact, I think every Deeni institute has non aalims working within it. But generally these people go in and work alongside the ulamah in a complementary role, taking on certain tasks that they are better at. I don't think this is what is being suggested though, as this has already being going on for years. The words 'reformation' and 'shake up' suggest something on a larger scale.

I think many people contributing are in agreement about most things that need to happen. It is just the method of this suggested action that needs refining. The fikr of the ummah exists and this is why certain points are being stressed.

There are British Ulamah who are members of SF who don't ever contribute to these discussions. Also when individual aalims are approached they tend to listen but not take the advice on board. It needs to be asked WHY? Why do the Ulamah not take this advice on board? The answer is pretty obvious to me: they don't agree with the proposals and are not convinced. If you want to change hearts and minds, you have to detach yourself and listen to them AND take their criticisms on board.

There needs to be a convincing reason as to why this umbrella organisation is needed. So far I have read two or three reasons that are good, but not convincing enough to justify the need. One of the suggestions was that so that the public could recognise who the bona fide organisations are and take their Islam from them. I think that could work both ways. We have our Madrasah in a predominantly Barelwi area and it is well attended because we do not make this obvious. They people are generally ignorant of deen but consider ‘Wahhabis’ (as they call them) to be misguided. If we said we are affiliated with the Deobandi school of thought 90% of the learners would go elsewhere. At the same time if Al Magrib openly advertised themselves as a ‘Salafi’ organisation, I think many students would be wary of them.

On a final note:
Where I live, Salafism is not such a big threat. There are very few Salafi set ups here and I am told by an insider that they exaggerate the figures to appear successful. Anyone who walks in through the doors is counted as a ‘student’ to boost the figures. The problem here are the Barelwis who are not only ignorant of the basic principles of deen but are also the least practising and it is these we need to tackle.

Bas, that the end of my contribution, insha allah.

ENIGMA
11-04-2010, 02:38 PM
'Laymen' have contributed to the Darul Uloom managment and teaching system for years. In fact, I think every Deeni institute has non aalims working within it. But generally these people go in and work alongside the ulamah in a complementary role, taking on certain tasks that they are better at. I don't think this is what is being suggested though, as this has already being going on for years. The words 'reformation' and 'shake up' suggest something on a larger scale.

I think many people contributing are in agreement about most things that need to happen. It is just the method of this suggested action that needs refining. The fikr of the ummah exists and this is why certain points are being stressed.

There are British Ulamah who are members of SF who don't ever contribute to these discussions. Also when individual aalims are approached they tend to listen but not take the advice on board. It needs to be asked WHY? Why do the Ulamah not take this advice on board? The answer is pretty obvious to me: they don't agree with the proposals and are not convinced.

There needs to be a convincing reason as to why this umbrella organisation is needed. So far I have read two or three reasons that are good, but not convincing enough to justify the need. One of the suggestions was that so that the public could recognise who the bona fide organisations are and take their Islam from them. I think that could work both ways. We have our Madrasah in a predominantly Barelwi area and it is well attended because we do not make this obvious. They people are generally ignorant of deen but consider ‘Wahhabis’ (as they call them) to be misguided. If we said we are affiliated with the Deobandi school of thought 90% of the learners would go elsewhere. At the same time if Al Magrib openly advertised themselves as a ‘Salafi’ organisation, I think many students would be wary of them.

On a final note:
Where I live, Salafism is not such a big threat. There are very few Salafi set ups here and I am told by an insider that they exaggerate the figures to appear successful. Anyone who walks in through the doors is counted as a ‘student’ to boost the figures. The problem here are the Barelwis who are not only ignorant of the basic principles of deen but are also the least practising and it is these we need to tackle.

I think you're wrong. I think they are more scared about what people will say. Sticking your head above the parapit brings along the verbal lashings which is so prevalent in our communities. Some scholars do agree with the proposals mentioned here,but the hassle they would get for making such suggestions would be too much and thus they rather keep the status quo.

I think this al maghrib thing is a Brum and London issue. but we know London's full of characters anyway :;):

I think this is more of a passing fad much like what HT was in the 90's. One thing I do know. :alhamd: our darul ulooms have stood the test of time against all odds.

I tend to find al maghrib,HT etc don't get much of a look in the North.

True Life
11-04-2010, 03:05 PM
:salam:

I have a genuine question for those that are critizising the classical Darul 'Uloom system, how do you feel about institutions like Shaykh Saleem Dhorat's IDA for example? Have they managed to fulfill the needs of place & time or are they as well adhering too strict to old traditions? I think there is generally nothing bad in reformations or introducing new methods without leaving the path of your righteous elders. Wasn't the Dars-e-Nizami as well a new invention to tackle the difficulties of it's time and place in propagating Deen?

Btw. there's a new Bayan of Shaykh Saleem Dhorat giving 5 principles for success of Deeni institutions: 1. Ikhlas 2. Ittiba-e-Sunnah (which includes path of righteous elders) 3. Taqwa 4. Ittifaq 5. Ruju' Ilallah.

muminah
11-04-2010, 06:36 PM
I think you're wrong. I think they are more scared about what people will say. Sticking your head above the parapit brings along the verbal lashings which is so prevalent in our communities. Some scholars do agree with the proposals mentioned here,but the hassle they would get for making such suggestions would be too much and thus they rather keep the status quo.

.

I agree with Engima. Aalims/as are very scared to publicly criticize the institutions and the methodology used, as it would look like they are criticizing the owners of such institutions. And the culture is of such extreme respect, that to even suggest you are criticizing puts you in a very dangerous position.

muminah
11-04-2010, 06:38 PM
I tend to find al maghrib,HT etc don't get much of a look in the North.

Al Maghrib wouldn't be opening up a new branch in Manchester if that is the case. They are increasing in popularity.

ENIGMA
11-04-2010, 07:11 PM
Al Maghrib wouldn't be opening up a new branch in Manchester if that is the case. They are increasing in popularity.

You don't remember the HT fad in the 1990's??

ENIGMA
11-04-2010, 07:14 PM
Al Maghrib wouldn't be opening up a new branch in Manchester if that is the case. They are increasing in popularity.

I'll probably take them more seriously when Al Maghrib start making in roads in places like Blackburn,Preston and Bolton.

To me,it seems like its aimed at the 18-30 year old age market. I wouldn't mind attending one actually to see how its set up.

Can I ask whats the general age range?

muminah
11-04-2010, 07:25 PM
I'll probably take them more seriously when Al Maghrib start making in roads in places like Blackburn,Preston and Bolton.

To me,it seems like its aimed at the 18-30 year old age market. I wouldn't mind attending one actually to see how its set up.

Can I ask whats the general age range?

Well all the places you mentioned are within one hour range of Manchester. So in essence it is there. But I can see your point, but it'll happen. There are people attending from these places you mentioned but of course it is not being advertised in the mosques there, just online.

I think the age range you mentioned is probably right.

muminah
11-04-2010, 07:26 PM
You don't remember the HT fad in the 1990's??

No, do enlighten me.

seeker_of_ilm
11-04-2010, 09:36 PM
I was also thinking why so many alims dont speak up against their heads of madresas so I asked an alim in the mosque this question. Two alims were standing together and both had different backgrounds. Thwy were very amused that I thought they were scared and said it is becasue the heads usually know what they are doing and dont need the input of us inexperienced alims. They have been running the places for tens of years and have lots more hikmah. THey said that it is also out of love and respect and not fear. Like why would you not disagree with your shaikh in public? Not because you are scared of them but becasue you accept their judgementand love and respect them.

Lots of people in the the younger generation do not understand respect and when it is brought up on sunniforum people tend to dismiss it. Respect does not mean agreeing with every opinion of your shaikh. But it does mean you dont openly disgree with them in a way that leads to the public criticising them.

This is no offence to anyone on either sides of the argument. If you cannot read threads without taking them personally then I dont think you should read threads.

ENIGMA
11-04-2010, 10:14 PM
No, do enlighten me.

I'll presume you know who HT is. HT were a pretty big organisation in the 90's and early 2000. Their effort was based around 'recruiting' young 18-25 year old muslims in universities for their cause of 'World wide Islamic Khilafa'. Now HT made effort so that Muslims(especially students) were made politically active. But it wasn't just that but they went about with various other slogans.

basically,it was all about 'you old guys(early immigrants in to the UK)move over. we are educated and the Islam you follow is cultural. We know what actual Islam is' etc etc.


Alot of guji students got caught up in all of this primarily because it was all new and they'd never seen articulate Muslims be vocal. Gujis who got caught up in the whole HT thing generally came from Indian/Pakistani background where you got told what to do,but no one actually explained anything. So being with people who spoke english,and talked in detail about Islam which most of these gijus had never heard of appealed to them. This then lead to these young guji HT members to rebel against their own elders and communities.

So to me,this Al Maghrib thing is abit like that. making people have that 'superior' feeling that this is real knowledge and the Islam that our parents follow is somehow more cultural and what Al Maghrib is teaching is somehow more 'pure'.

daywalk3r
11-04-2010, 11:10 PM
I'll presume you know who HT is. HT were a pretty big organisation in the 90's and early 2000. Their effort was based around 'recruiting' young 18-25 year old muslims in universities for their cause of 'World wide Islamic Khilafa'. Now HT made effort so that Muslims(especially students) were made politically active. But it wasn't just that but they went about with various other slogans.

basically,it was all about 'you old guys(early immigrants in to the UK)move over. we are educated and the Islam you follow is cultural. We know what actual Islam is' etc etc.


Alot of guji students got caught up in all of this primarily because it was all new and they'd never seen articulate Muslims be vocal. Gujis who got caught up in the whole HT thing generally came from Indian/Pakistani background where you got told what to do,but no one actually explained anything. So being with people who spoke english,and talked in detail about Islam which most of these gijus had never heard of appealed to them. This then lead to these young guji HT members to rebel against their own elders and communities.

So to me,this Al Maghrib thing is abit like that. making people have that 'superior' feeling that this is real knowledge and the Islam that our parents follow is somehow more cultural and what Al Maghrib is teaching is somehow more 'pure'.

difference to me would be the Salafi orgs are much better organised then HT are and ever will be and HT's had mainly clean shaved guys with long pants etc giving their talks mainly whereas salafi have their ulama, beards, thobes etc...... and are obviously better bank rolled from Saudi etc

i remember a HT stall outside our masjid donkeys years ago - my mates dad who was also our muezzin (since passed away - may Allah shower his mercy and blessings on him and grant him a lofty rank in jannah) got a broomstick from the masjid and smashed it up :p

Then there was that incident again donkeys years back when the HT guys tried to have a discussion with Mufti Saeed Palunpuri- they kept on refering to him as "Uncle" when speaking to him - i thought what the...!! But then again Omar Bakari, so i heard, when he headed them, also came down another year to visit Mufti Sab purely on the basis of respect of such an eminent scholar and no discussion on any issue took place.

arius
12-04-2010, 06:14 AM
The discussion has drifted away to some other topic of which I cannot make a head or tail. The point raised by me about the basharats of Lal Masjid victims has been buried deep within this discussion, which is not immediately relevant to the topic of this thread. I cannot even find my post myself. The Sunniforum should appoint an editing team to start new threads with relevant titles when a discussion veers off to some other topic, the title of the discussion over the last few pages would perhaps be "Studying in madressahs" or something similar. The editors should also delete the unnecessary threads and posts so that the more valuable ones become more easily accessible to a visitor.

muminah
12-04-2010, 10:15 AM
I'll presume you know who HT is. HT were a pretty big organisation in the 90's and early 2000. Their effort was based around 'recruiting' young 18-25 year old muslims in universities for their cause of 'World wide Islamic Khilafa'. Now HT made effort so that Muslims(especially students) were made politically active. But it wasn't just that but they went about with various other slogans.

basically,it was all about 'you old guys(early immigrants in to the UK)move over. we are educated and the Islam you follow is cultural. We know what actual Islam is' etc etc.

Alot of guji students got caught up in all of this primarily because it was all new and they'd never seen articulate Muslims be vocal. Gujis who got caught up in the whole HT thing generally came from Indian/Pakistani background where you got told what to do,but no one actually explained anything. So being with people who spoke english,and talked in detail about Islam which most of these gijus had never heard of appealed to them. This then lead to these young guji HT members to rebel against their own elders and communities.
.

JazakAllah for explaining. Are the guji bros in question still with HT or moved on?

muminah
12-04-2010, 10:17 AM
I was also thinking why so many alims dont speak up against their heads of madresas so I asked an alim in the mosque this question. Two alims were standing together and both had different backgrounds. Thwy were very amused that I thought they were scared and said it is becasue the heads usually know what they are doing and dont need the input of us inexperienced alims. They have been running the places for tens of years and have lots more hikmah. THey said that it is also out of love and respect and not fear. Like why would you not disagree with your shaikh in public? Not because you are scared of them but becasue you accept their judgementand love and respect them.


I'm glad you asked an aalim. However, what I said was from my exposure to aalims/as. I suspect it may differ slightly from instiution to instiution, and shaykh to shaykh.

London786
12-04-2010, 10:31 AM
Well. Let me give my 2pence. Al-Maghrib will find it very difficult to penetrate places like blackburn, bolton, preston. The fact is that the gujratis are very narrow minded and anything they are not used to they are very sceptical of. I remember when some al-muhajiroun guys set up a stall outside our masjid they got a lot of violence directed against them (which is wrong). The way to speak to them would be like how mufti sadrudeen persuaded them with reason etc. Some people were making some lame excuses like go preach to christians..we are all muslims here etc. Anyway mufti saheb invited them to his house and gave them some nice tea…then banged them with his knowledge in a nice way…and next thing you know those same guys became mufti saab’s best mates…some even attend his zikr. With regards to comparing al-maghrib to HT it’s a completely different ball game. The amount of knowledge someone like shaykh tawfique chawdury from australia has or the eloquence of muhammad al shareef then im afraid very few of our ulema can compare. Actually having listened to both speakers I mashallah applaud them. Even I would attend their talks. So yes the guys up north will not be effected. But in places like london its different. Up north there are 2 general mentalites…your either a tablighi or a non-practicing muslim. In london however there are many mixtures…its good and bad….

The Fake Shaykh
12-04-2010, 11:43 AM
Well. Let me give my 2pence. Al-Maghrib will find it very difficult to penetrate places like blackburn, bolton, preston. The fact is that the gujratis are very narrow minded and anything they are not used to they are very sceptical of. I remember when some al-muhajiroun guys set up a stall outside our masjid they got a lot of violence directed against them (which is wrong). The way to speak to them would be like how mufti sadrudeen persuaded them with reason etc. Some people were making some lame excuses like go preach to christians..we are all muslims here etc. Anyway mufti saheb invited them to his house and gave them some nice tea…then banged them with his knowledge in a nice way…and next thing you know those same guys became mufti saab’s best mates…some even attend his zikr. With regards to comparing al-maghrib to HT it’s a completely different ball game. The amount of knowledge someone like shaykh tawfique chawdury from australia has or the eloquence of muhammad al shareef then im afraid very few of our ulema can compare. Actually having listened to both speakers I mashallah applaud them. Even I would attend their talks. So yes the guys up north will not be effected. But in places like london its different. Up north there are 2 general mentalites…your either a tablighi or a non-practicing muslim. In london however there are many mixtures…its good and bad….
its time for my 2pence,

bro when your up north you cant speak about anything but the 6 points, if you do they think you on some next flex, i remember when i was there and i started talking about the moon and salat timetable issue bro i had to debate about 20 of them, no matter what proof i gave them they just didnt want to accept anything i was saying, so they then got some ulama from there to talk to me which they did, and i didnt want to but i put them in thier place aswell, now when they see me they do salam from far and cross the road.;)

no offence to bro enigma because he is from a very few tj bro's who are unlocked to all 4 networks:-), but up north they are very narrow minded, closed off to many legit deobandi teachings, in one way you can say it is good because they just stick to the same things so no chance of any deviations but then when they do get exposed to different kind of thinkings specially when they come to tabligh up south then they do struggle to adapt and take a different approach when reqiured.

muminah
12-04-2010, 11:46 AM
Some good points regarding the northerners, but again, we are generalising. Things are slowly changing even up north.