praying infront of the imam

[caravan of martyrs]

salaam

am i right that if someone stands ahead of the imam during salaah then his salaat is invalid, if this is the case what about praying in masjid i haram during hajj time and ramadhan because the imams are inside and not even in the mataf never mind right at the front. there are 1000s of people ahead of them is their salaah invalid?

[meelash]

salaam

am i right that if someone stands ahead of the imam during salaah then his salaat is invalid, if this is the case what about praying in masjid i haram during hajj time and ramadhan because the imams are inside and not even in the mataf never mind right at the front. there are 1000s of people ahead of them is their salaah invalid?

You are correct that it is a prerequisite that the heels of the muqtadi cannot be ahead of the heels of the imam.

In Madinah, there are markings and signs outside in the courtyard surrounding the masjid that delineate where the imam stands and in front of which you cannot stand during jamaat. In Mecca, when I was there for Hajj, the imam did stand in the mataaf directly in front of the Maqaam-e-Ibraahim, about 10-15 feet from the kaabah, and so all the people were behind him. When I went for Umrah in the summer, the Imam stood in the building part of the masjid, so people had to be educated and aware and not pray in the mataaf. A few people did (in spite of the intense heat), but I guess that is the condition of lack of compulsory knowledge.

Unless there is some exception in masjid-e-haraam?

[caravan of martyrs]

You are correct that it is a prerequisite that the heels of the muqtadi cannot be ahead of the heels of the imam.

In Madinah, there are markings and signs outside in the courtyard surrounding the masjid that delineate where the imam stands and in front of which you cannot stand during jamaat. In Mecca, when I was there for Hajj, the imam did stand in the mataaf directly in front of the Maqaam-e-Ibraahim, about 10-15 feet from the kaabah, and so all the people were behind him. When I went for Umrah in the summer, the Imam stood in the building part of the masjid, so people had to be educated and aware and not pray in the mataaf. A few people did (in spite of the intense heat), but I guess that is the condition of lack of compulsory knowledge.

Unless there is some exception in masjid-e-haraam?

salaam

jazakAllah for the reply. majority of the time excluding hajj and ramadhan time imam either stands behind maqam i ibraheem (as) and everyone stands behind the imam who are on his side however the opposite side are allowed to stand right next to the kabah. also a few times the imam will stand just a foot away from the kaba and no one on the same side as him will be ahead of him. however during busy periods they pray in the balcony and no one announces it. i think it must be an exception otherwise why will the authorites not make an effort to tell the people? also it wont be feasble as a packed out mataf can hold 1000s of people. i dont get why the imas just dont stand right at the front next to the multazam and lead. if you haramain recordings you can most salaah is by maqam i ibraheem (ra) and fajr is mostly right at the front..

[Husain]

:ws:

If the musalli's aren't on the same side of the Ka'bah as the Imam, then it isn't an issue.
If they are, then the Maliki madhab allows them to be in front of the Imam. This- to the best of my knowledge- is a general rule in the maliki madhab and isn't restricted to the Haram.

[caravan of martyrs]

wasalaam

jazakAllah for the reply. as a hanafi is my salah accepted if the imams pray in the balcony area and i am praying in the mataf area?

['Abd al-Baari]

wasalaam

jazakAllah for the reply. as a hanafi is my salah accepted if the imams pray in the balcony area and i am praying in the mataf area?

From what Hadhrat Mufti Saheb said, (and I also asked my Ustaadh who said the same thing) then yes your Salaah is fine in the Mataaf. This is because the area in front of the Imaam is cordoned off, and only those that are performing tawaaf come directly between the Imaam and the Ka'abah, the Musallis are on the other sides of the Ka'abah.

Can be seen in this pic:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3545/mataafsalaah.png

[caravan of martyrs]

From what Hadhrat Mufti Saheb said, (and I also asked my Ustaadh who said the same thing) then yes your Salaah is fine in the Mataaf. This is because the area in front of the Imaam is cordoned off, and only those that are performing tawaaf come directly between the Imaam and the Ka'abah, the Musallis are on the other sides of the Ka'abah.

its not like this during hajj and ramadhan time. the imams pray inside the first floor right at the front. just below them it is the mataaf and people are praying there. il try finding a picture or go to haramain recordings and look at tarawih salaah you will see what i mean.

ps no one has answered my other thread. does hajj become fard for anyone who is in makkah on eid day and after?

['Abd al-Baari]

Yh, sometimes during Hajj this happens, and what my ustaadh said, is that if you are performing salaah in front of the Imaam (in between the Imaam and the Ka'abah), then this is not permisssible. It very rarely happens though during Ramadhaan.

[meelash]

For two or three days of the Hajj days, it would be very impossible for the guards to do the cordoning off in front of the imam. There are very simply way too many people, and no free space for maneuvering at all. In fact, many times, by chance, or by not being aware of the time, there is a good chance you might be stuck somewhere else (like some tightly packed portion of sa'ee, etc) that would result in the inability to pray in the jamaat and its not even possible to move to a suitable spot, because it is simply impossible to move at all.

I guess you should just take this difficulty with patience, do your best to be aware of the time and schedule your activities so you are in a correct area at the time of jamaaa'ah (this is quite difficult, it can easily take more than an hour between your intending to go to a certain spot and your actually getting there [hopefully you aren't bulldozing through the crowds :eek: :frown:]), and if there's any question about the validity of your salaah, then following the jamaa'ah get to a good spot and repeat it on your own.

[Usama2]

its not like this during hajj and ramadhan time. the imams pray inside the first floor right at the front. just below them it is the mataaf and people are praying there. il try finding a picture or go to haramain recordings and look at tarawih salaah you will see what i mean.

ps no one has answered my other thread. does hajj become fard for anyone who is in makkah on eid day and after?

:salam:

Indeed. Ramadan and Hajj are different simply because of the volume of people and logistics of the salaat. Even if the imam wanted to pray on the balcony and the guards TRIED to block the sitra, the sitra would be overrun by those rushing to be near the Kaaba. Its possible you could pray on steps, either making sajdah on a single step, or even down steps, let alone making sajdah on the back of someone in front of you.

What's most important for the individual is not to be between the kaaba and the imam. The fuqaha make some distinctions for salaat in the Haramain precisely because it IS the destination. That that pertains to salaat there does not necessarily apply anywhere else.

And Allah knows best.

[Ibn_Adam]

:salam:

wasalaam

jazakAllah for the reply. as a hanafi is my salah accepted if the imams pray in the balcony area and i am praying in the mataf area?

I think Mufti Husain sahab's reply is clear. That is what the local (Hanafi) mufti says too. You aren't allowed to pray in front of the imam only on the side of the Ka'bah where the imam is standing. On the remaining three sides, you can pray in the Mataf, or near the Ka'bah even when the Imam's saff (when extrapolated) goes behind you.

One important thing that should be considered while you are in Makkah is to make sure you are truly facing the Ka'bah while praying. Sometimes due to crowd, you may not find a place where the saff is marked on the floor. I have seen people praying towards the pillars many times, even though the saff marking on the floor was clearly visible. Sometimes the carpet is not propery aligned according to the saff marking. This is very dangerous for those who don't know.

The carpets below the mukabbir (where the Imam leads in Taraweeh) are NOT aligned properly. Most of them face straight in line with the Imam's musalla and when you stand on them, you go slightly to right or left of the Ka'bah. Care should be taken always. Only the marking on the floor (marble & granite) is correct.