can you be a doctor and alima?

[hijabiforever]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

[hijabiforever]

ps- i know you can be hafiza but that is different.

[AbdullahbinAbdullah]

Mashallah, you have high aims and may Allah Ta3ala fulfill those.

Although I have a couple of things which I would ask my self:

1. What does it mean to be an Aalima? Is it that people regard one as such, or that people say "look she/he follows Islam so completely" or "mashallah, she is so knowledgeable" or to give lecture and right fatwas e.t.c? or is it a degree a course an Ijazah?
2. One can practice Islam even without being an Aalima
3. Anything that is a reaction does not last (generally speaking) This choice should not be a reaction, but be a conscious choice rising from a internal drive for the sake of The One who is The Truth

[Colonel_Hardstone]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

:ws:

Doctor as in Medical Doctor or Phd Doctor?

[laystur]

:salam:

Yes, you can be both.

[Nomadic]

If an Alim can be doctor, business men and specilise in ohter wordly subject, it is good for the ummah as long as the islamic ethics are adhered to and being implemented through them.
I think teaching and being doctor is a good choice for an Alimah. Mufti Zubair Butt a lecterer at university and sits in contemporary Sharaih Advisory panel also do programs for muslim doctors educating them in ethics etc.
Rarely one person can master both at the same time. One has to finish one course first and then move on to the other course. On a side issue many of the so called islamic school is really not islamic per say but rather simply provides a muslim environment with some basic subject where as Darul ulm focuses predominanatly on islamic science. Some one who has no idea of the Islamic syllabus often thinks darul ulm can do both. The subject matter is often more demanding then worldy degrees. It is like saying A Level strudent should also be studying degree in engineering.
However inorder to be relevent, some minor modern social science or subject should be introduced. Shaikh Abdul Hakim Murad has started this with some alims now sitting with him.
Masalam

[suleimanibnsalim]

In Syria, children are tested, and by law the most clever are signed up to be doctors, the engneers etc until the least brilliant people are signed of to study shari`ah. This is extremely bad for the state of the `ulama. However, people like Shaykh Samir an-Nas, a doctor, is an `alim, faqih, muhaddith and qari', who has mastered the 10 qira'aat and teaches al-hidayah at ma`had al-fath, and tasawwuf texts through the night, do exist, alhamduliLlah. Perhaps people like him may serve as an inspiration, though you should question your intentions.

was-salam

[hijabiforever]

Yes I mean medical doctor not doctor with a Phd
Alima means someone who went to darululoom and becomes and alima, they study quran and Islamic kitabs. I'm not saying everyone has to be an alima, but it is also a good thing to become. I know lots of people i ask say that you can do both and oh that's really good, but when I ask if they know anyone, they all say no, or they know a doctor who is a hafiz or goes to jamat. So somebody must have done it in all of England?

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Yes I mean medical doctor not doctor with a Phd
Alima means someone who went to darululoom and becomes and alima, they study quran and Islamic kitabs. I'm not saying everyone has to be an alima, but it is also a good thing to become. I know lots of people i ask say that you can do both and oh that's really good, but when I ask if they know anyone, they all say no, or they know a doctor who is a hafiz or goes to jamat. So somebody must have done it in all of England?

:ws:

There are two kinds of "Alims" amongst men

1) Ones who are going to teach after learning

2) Ones who study a cut-down curriculum so its enough for their own rectification and Islaah and some of them are professionals or adult-students etc.

Which track do you want to take?

[muminah]

Yes of course you can! I know someone who did Alima course whilst at school/college, and then read medicine at university.

[muminah]

Mashallah, you have high aims and may Allah Ta3ala fulfill those.

Although I have a couple of things which I would ask my self:

1. What does it mean to be an Aalima? Is it that people regard one as such, or that people say "look she/he follows Islam so completely" or "mashallah, she is so knowledgeable" or to give lecture and right fatwas e.t.c? or is it a degree a course an Ijazah?
2. One can practice Islam even without being an Aalima
3. Anything that is a reaction does not last (generally speaking) This choice should not be a reaction, but be a conscious choice rising from a internal drive for the sake of The One who is The Truth

You shouldn't worry about what people think. The purpose of becoming an aalima is to gain knowledge and become a better person and become closer to Allah. That is the primary purpose. If after that, you want to teach or study further, that is up to you. Of course one can practice without becoming an aalima, but wouldn't it be great if you could understand the Qur'an when you are reading it? Don't you think that will add khushoo' to your salah? Of course there are alternative routes to learning that, but for some people, aalima route is the most convenient.

[sudoku]

Yes of course you can! I know someone who did Alima course whilst at school/college, and then read medicine at university.

:salam:

Yah I agree. Just two days ago my mom was telling me about her best friend, a divorcee in her last forties/fifties with 6 children, who's now in her final year of Alima course, :mash:. I must say it was quite inspiring to hear that.

[hijabiforever]

jazakallah everyone for replying. I want to learn everything properly. That's what i dont understand that if you become an alima and what happens if you can't teach afterwards or something. I know some alimas don't teach at mosque afterwards so I wan to learn to be a better Muslim and understand quran but also to teach other people too coz that's the best thing. The problem is after you become a doctor I think it's hard to keep learning and teaching and tbh i want to wear purdah too.
muminah, that's really good mashalah. So is she a proper alima, can she understand arabic and studied all the kitabs and then went to university? Does she wear purdah and jubba? Did she say it was hard and when will she become a doctor. I know it takes about 6 years. I'm really happy now i know someone did it alhamdulilah i knew i was right.

[Hamza81]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, anything is possible sister but i would concetrate on becoming an Aalima first and that way you can teach Islamand the Qur'an to children and to women as well as giving dawah.

Dr Zakir Naik himself gave up his medical profession to devote himself to giving dawah as he knew that it would benefit him more in the hereafter.

Therefore concentrate on your hereafter and become an Aalima as i think there is a shortage of women scholars to help other women. At the same time you can also write articles and do so much for Islam.

Ask of Allah to do what is best for you and please remember me in your dua's to.

And Allah knows best in all matters

[Slave-Of-Allah]

As-salamu alaikum.

I belive Shaykh Husain Abdul Sattar is a good example of being both a doctor and a scholar;

http://www.sacredlearning.org/shaykh-husain/category

[Helper_man]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

Sister that indeed is a noble choice you made. There are many brothers and sisters who are trying to follow these footsteps. Its pretty common that best of students are put to medicine and engineering, law and the lowest scoring are diverted towards shariah sciences. So a reverse in this tread is great.

According to Shaykh Abdul Hussain Sattar, he mentioned that as soon as you realize your aims of becoming both, start immediately ! Do not wait to get done with medicine and then start. He suggests to continue medicine full time and study islamic topics part time either by urself or by the help of local scholars. By this way, you do not waste your time and start ahead.

Shaykh Hussain covered up most of his islamic schooling in a short time due to this, he got exempted so was able to graduate from darul ulooms quicker than other students. One other thing is that where you are studying medicine, does matter. If its in the US, it could be better. You could take up arabic, islamic sciences and biology majors and then enter med school, which is only 4 years. If you are in the UK its 5 or more. But you enter med schools directly.
If you are elsewhere, then med schools are 7 years ! :(
Medicine is a very long career, its "studying" that makes a good doctor, its "practise" that makes you one.

A trend seen in most of the scholars is that they often end up taking a study leave in the middle of the medical career, then come back and finish their med schools.



You have to really sit down and think about your aims, objectives and in reality how practical situation would be. You intensions should be very clear. Its very difficult and you need very high amount of dedication to do both. If you are doing medicine at the moment, youd realize how demanding and exuasting it is and if you are planning to read medicine then you have to be careful in planning.

Put down your steps and have a clear picture and then work on them one by one.

I am sure some one has inspired you to do this, and so when you become an alima and a doctor, ud inspire many other girls following you footsteps,

sister GO ahead and do it, May Allah guide you and all of the youth to the right direction. Ameen.

[ayesha1909]

I've never met a doctor and an alimah but it has happened ued end up going university late if you went to a madrassah first becasue they dont have the proper education.

[laystur]

I've never met a doctor and an alimah but it has happened ued end up going university late if you went to a madrassah first becasue they dont have the proper education.

Not true.

I know someone who was doing an Alimah course at a madrassah whilst simultaneously undertaking her A levels. She completed the Alimah course just recently and also had offers to study medicine at two universities in England. If she accepts one of the offers she'll be starting at 18, the minimum age required to be able to begin the degree.

[ayesha1909]

Oh thats good. I didn't think it could be possible to do both and still start univeristy at the normal time.

[muminah]

Not true.

I know someone who was doing an Alimah course at a madrassah whilst simultaneously undertaking her A levels. She completed the Alimah course just recently and also had offers to study medicine at two universities in England. If she accepts one of the offers she'll be starting at 18, the minimum age required to be able to begin the degree.

Ditto.

[muminah]

jazakallah everyone for replying. I want to learn everything properly. That's what i dont understand that if you become an alima and what happens if you can't teach afterwards or something. I know some alimas don't teach at mosque afterwards so I wan to learn to be a better Muslim and understand quran but also to teach other people too coz that's the best thing. The problem is after you become a doctor I think it's hard to keep learning and teaching and tbh i want to wear purdah too.
muminah, that's really good mashalah. So is she a proper alima, can she understand arabic and studied all the kitabs and then went to university? Does she wear purdah and jubba? Did she say it was hard and when will she become a doctor. I know it takes about 6 years. I'm really happy now i know someone did it alhamdulilah i knew i was right.

Yes 'proper' aalima. Theres no criteria that says you must teach, just teach your children, that is more than enough :)

If you want to wear purdah then I don't know what to say - you most likely can't in the UK. So unless you want to study abroad (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE or Egypt) and work abroad, I don't think there is a way out. I personally don't know any full time niqabi studying medicine, it isn't possible. However, if you are willing to remove when you are on placement, then it is fine.

[Helper_man]

You could try www.ilmessentials.com

It fits the motives you mentioned sister.

If anyone has taken courses, please comment.

[seeker247]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.


Assalamulykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh dear sister,

i know few doctors who practice full pardah but have actually finished med school and maybe seeking further education(Md and alimah)..

if you want more information,or if i can be of any use sister,,,feel free to contact me :-).

but i feel...deen comes 1st...so mayb doing alimah course 1st is better...i dono ...and maybe inshAllah you can do both together!
best and most important is to do istikhara.
Allah taala alone knows best and may He guide you to whats best...ameen

wassalamulykum wrwb

[Imperium]

As-salamu alaikum.

I belive Shaykh Husain Abdul Sattar is a good example of being both a doctor and a scholar;

http://www.sacredlearning.org/shaykh-husain/category

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Yahya al-Ninowy is another. Although I don't believe he ever practised medicine.

[hijabiforever]

Jazakallah everyone for your replies. It's good to see that there are ulamas who do other things to coz in my community, we don't really have ulamas like this unless i don't know them (no disrespect).
I dont wear purdah atm, but inshalah one day I want to, even though I don't think my family will let me anyway, and I won't be allowed to go abroad to another country to study as well. I still haven't made up my mind because I know it's gonna be really hard to be a doctor and it takes so long. And the problem is darululooms don't really like it if you do other things because they think it's western taleem and not good. It sounds like it's more advanced in america than here.
Please remember me in your duas, jazakllah.

[UmHasan]

This thread was an interesting read. I'm afraid to say I disagree with most of the posts. :-) But only on a personal level and not some official fiqhi position so may Allah guide you towards whats best for your deen, dunya and aakhirah.

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

My aunt is a practicing doctor (MBBS) and an alimah (completed her takhassus). In Karachi.

[UmHasan]

:mash: May Allah increase the benefit she brings to the ummah. I assume she became a doctor in Pakistan in which case she is in a different situation form the sister who started the thread.

[Helper_man]

This thread was an interesting read. I'm afraid to say I disagree with most of the posts. :-) But only on a personal level and not some official fiqhi position so may Allah guide you towards whats best for your deen, dunya and aakhirah.

Asalam alykum Sister Soupy,

I always like to read your posts, they are beneficial. Could you please mention why you disagree with most of the posts? that is if you prefer to reply.

[insufficient]

Asalam alykum Sister Soupy,

I always like to read your posts, they are beneficial. Could you please mention why you disagree with most of the posts? that is if you prefer to reply.

:salam:

I concur :)

[molwisaab]

masha Allah if you go bradford you will find enough people wo are doctors and from other professions and at the same time they are studiying aalim course at mufti saifulislam sh. d.b place.there are even people who are close to their 50's 60's they are doctor and at the same time becoming an aalim.

it would be a great choise because the ummah is in need of people who have their earning through their profession and at the same time they have deep knowledge of islam.

jazakallah

[Mansy]

salaams
If i want to learn to be an alima and be a doctor as well is that possible? I know someone who is a doctor and she thinks this is not really possible and doesn't know anyone like this. So I am wondering is there anyone who has done this or knows someone who has.
Either they went to madresa first and became an alima or became a doctor then became an alima. I don't see why someone cant do it if they really have the desire coz you can help people in the deen and dunya, but she says i dont understand and also that darul ulooms don't have the right standard of education and that if someone went to university afterwards they wouldn't fit in, and wouldn't be able to follow deen properly, so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

Assalamaualikum sister this is something which is not intrinsically impossible, however it will take a long time, longer than normal because of the two different path ways. Here is the path that a friend of mine took. Maulana Ishaq Sayed from Clapton, finished DU Bury in 2001 being an Alim and a hafiz. He then went with me to Al-azhar Univerisity and completed a degree in hadith. We came back in 2004 and he started his GCSE that year. He is now in his fourth year of medicine and pushing 30, but inshallah he will finally get there. Hope that helps

take care
wassalam
Maulana Dr Mansur (PhD)

[nuke]

Assalamaualikum sister this is something which is not intrinsically impossible, however it will take a long time, longer than normal because of the two different path ways. Here is the path that a friend of mine took. Maulana Ishaq Sayed from Clapton, finished DU Bury in 2001 being an Alim and a hafiz. He then went with me to Al-azhar Univerisity and completed a degree in hadith. We came back in 2004 and he started his GCSE that year. He is now in his fourth year of medicine and pushing 30, but inshallah he will finally get there. Hope that helps

take care
wassalam
Maulana Dr Mansur (PhD)

:salam:

Maulana sahab i am in the final year of my PhD (Engineering) , and inshAllah plan to serve deen after that ( i am relatively young early-mid 20's). One of my friends suggested shariah program as the staring point, can you please direct me in this regard ?
Which path would you take ? ... I need someone who's been there to guide me as mostly
the feedback i got was not very encouraging.
I am based in greater Manchester area.

:jazak:

:ws:

[Helper_man]

Assalamaualikum sister this is something which is not intrinsically impossible, however it will take a long time, longer than normal because of the two different path ways. Here is the path that a friend of mine took. Maulana Ishaq Sayed from Clapton, finished DU Bury in 2001 being an Alim and a hafiz. He then went with me to Al-azhar Univerisity and completed a degree in hadith. We came back in 2004 and he started his GCSE that year. He is now in his fourth year of medicine and pushing 30, but inshallah he will finally get there. Hope that helps

take care
wassalam
Maulana Dr Mansur (PhD)

Asalam Alykum Maulana Dr Mansur,

Thank you for the post. We need individuals like yourself to stay on the forums. So thank you for being here.
Id just like to ask your opinion about doing the reverse of what your friend did. Completing medicine and then taking up an Alim course? If so, when should one start the alim course? After medical college comes internship, then residency, so on. So when should one begin if he is already in the middle of medical college.
Is it advisable to do a long distance online course whilst being a training doctor? Should one give up the medical training?
If you could direct me to someone, id be glad.

JazakAllah kahirn

[treo-guy]

Please remember me in your duas, jazakllah.

:salam:

May Allah accept your efforts. I have a request for you. Please study to be an orthopedic doctor, or better yet, a surgeon. There are almost no females in this field and it is getting very hard for sisters in purdah who have bone related problems. I feel this path will earn you more hasanat than any other thing you might be thinking.

Thanks.

[bint_iftikhar]

I think the best thing to do would be to do one at a time, focus on one field then turn to the other. This is because both fields are EXTREMELY demanding fields, med school is not a joke and neither is alim course. what i suggest is that while you are doing your undergraduate studies to take programs such as shariahprogram.ca or others like that part time, so that you can build your base. Shaykh Hussain (DB) did something similar to that, i believe, as well as Shaykh Omar Hussaini in that they seperated med school and alim studies towards the later years. Initial studies are not as difficult as the later years, so it would be easier to combine the first few years of both fields and then focus on finishing one and then moving on to the other. thats just my opinion.

[London786]

Did I read correctly. So mufti mansy saheb you are giving the advice that a girl can/should go to become a doctor. Maulana if it was a muslim country with complete segregation then I can understand but what justfication can there be for putting a girl in such an environment? Also there is the problem of wearing niqab which would cause many problems. Niqab would just be the beginning of the problem. There is the issue of group work too and exchanging numbers, emails in this regard. I mean for a man there can be a bit of justification as he needs to provide rizq for his family etc but what justification is there for a lady to be put in such an environment? Let me give you a personal example. I was once involved in group work at university. There were 4 members in the group. Me, a muslim guy, a european guy and some russian girl. Anyway we had loads of meetings etc and worked together and had to exchange numbers/emails....thereafter in the next semester the russian girl is in one of my classes and remembers that we worked together and she sits next to me. I thought that it was just a coincidence. She did this a few times and started getting too friendly. I then missed the rest of the classes for that module in the semester. These kind of incidents are very common.....Group work leads to a lot of interaction and leads to a lot of problems....Unless someone is gay or extremely unattractive they will no doubt fall into temptation. Maulana Mansy saheb a quick look at any college with a sizable muslim presence would show you what is really going on. I mean you were raised in the UK so I'm sure you are aware (though many of the older generation born in the indopak would not be aware or maybe they choose to ignore it and still insist on sending their children to such filthy places)

Also how about marriage etc??? Many of these ladies will delay marriage and unfortunetely the longer marriage is delayed in the west the more problems there are. Either zina will happen or the lady will find it difficult to get married as any lady past the age of 25 the chances of getting married get slimmer by the day. I have personally witnessed many girls becoming alimahs and going into secular education and going astray. I know that the female teachers at the daruloom in Bradford are totally against it.

Maulana Mansy saheb don't you think that the role of the lady needs to be defined these days. I mean now it seems many ladies put their career before marriage, family and children. Before anyone comes up with the issue of neccesity then I do understand however the relatives in my family who work don't really need to work. Yes, they need to work if they want to keep up buying those 500 pounds gucchi handbags but otherwise if they want to lead a simple life then they don't need to work....

Anyway it is time someone addressed these issues. Maulana Mansy saheb this is not a rant against you but just some thoughts that I have. It would be great for some feedback. Please forgive me for any disrespect inshallah

[UmHasan]

Could you please mention why you disagree with most of the posts? that is if you prefer to reply.

I started a writing a reply a couple of days ago but left it unfinished. I know find that Brother London786 has already written exactly what was in my head, but thought I’d post my version anyway:

For male scholars (aalims) it’s a different matter. They are responsible for the household finances and therefore will need a well paid job to support their families. They also have less responsibilities pertaining to homemaking so can combine the two professions with ease.

For a female scholar (aalimah) it’s a different case. If she becomes a doctor first then by the time she becomes an aalimah, then unless she’s doing a part time course after she’s married and is good at balancing two profession and a home life, she’ll be quite old and will have delayed marriage which is not advisable for a young girl. If she becomes an aalimah first and then chooses to become a doctor then that will mean she has to forsake many of the Islamic values that aalimahs try to spread in the community such as preventing intermingling with the opposite gender, pardah, emphasis on home making and nurturing children etc. An aalimah is an supposed to be an example to the community and this responsibility, whether she like it not means she has to act upon things that may be permissible but are best avoided.

It also means that she’ll probably end up practising as a doctor rather than an aalimah, as that is the better paid job. One less aalimah for the community of Muslim women to benefit from.

My personal view is that unless you are living in a community with an abundance of aalims/ aalimah and where the situation of the Muslims is not worrying, an aalimah should use the extra time she has after her home duties to spread Islamic knowledge. There are is so much ignorance amongst women and so much work to do on the Muslim female population. Aalimahs who are capable and are intelligent enough to become a doctor can bring so much benefit to the community.

If there is a need for female doctors, then you don’t need to be an alimah to be a Muslim female doctor. A practising Muslimah, who is able to work and who is aware of the Islamic rulings related to her profession (permissible medication, treatment, etc) could do a good enough job. Save the aalimahs for deeni work.

Obviously this would only apply to aalimahs who are capable and practising themselves. A graduate from the dars nizaami course who is not very practising and does not adhere to the shari’ requirements in pardah etc would be a poor example and not be much use to the community.
I

[muminah]

For male scholars (aalims) it’s a different matter. They are responsible for the household finances and therefore will need a well paid job to support their families. They also have less responsibilities pertaining to homemaking so can combine the two professions with ease.

First of all, an 'aalimah is not a profession. When one completes an aalima course, one is still a student of knowledge, and not a muhadditha/faqeehah/mufassirah etc. One still has much to learn, and no where does it say that one has to make it as a profession and spread the knowledge to others. This is not cumpolsory. Also, you are assumuing that a woman wants to become a doctor to earn money. Has it ever occured to you that a woman may be becoming a doctor/spe******t to she can treat Muslim female patients who wouldn't feel as comfortable showing her private parts to men? I know of many women who have been for surgery and feel utterly embarassed and not comfortable when treated by male spe******ts. If the Muslim women are not going to take this responsibility, then who is? Didn't Umar RA encourage his wife to work as a midwife? Didn't Umar RA make a woman the head of the markets in Madinah, managing them 24/7?


For a female scholar (aalimah) it’s a different case. If she becomes a doctor first then by the time she becomes an aalimah, then unless she’s doing a part time course after she’s married and is good at balancing two profession and a home life, she’ll be quite old and will have delayed marriage which is not advisable for a young girl.

A woman can quite easily become an alima (or study the alima course as I would prefer to say) until the age of 16/18, and do her schooling at the same time, and when 18 go on to medical school.


If she becomes an aalimah first and then chooses to become a doctor then that will mean she has to forsake many of the Islamic values that aalimahs try to spread in the community such as preventing intermingling with the opposite gender, pardah, emphasis on home making and nurturing children etc. An aalimah is an supposed to be an example to the community and this responsibility, whether she like it not means she has to act upon things that may be permissible but are best avoided.

Well she may have to forsake purdah (face veil), where there is a legitimate difference of opinion anyways. She will not have to foresake intermingling. There are many many practising Muslims in the medcine field. And anyhow why have a different rule for women anyways? Is intermingling more haram on women? With regards to home making and nurturing the kids, say she doesn't have children or is not even married? Who says a woman can't delay getting married? In fact a woman or man doesn't need to marry at all if they don't want to. Who are we to enforce our own man made opinions on others?

An 'aalima (UK anyways) is just a student of knowledge, nothing more. Unless an 'aalima studies the deen further and spe******es in any field, then she would be in a true sense of the word an 'aalima.


It also means that she’ll probably end up practising as a doctor rather than an aalimah, as that is the better paid job. One less aalimah for the community of Muslim women to benefit from.

Well there are many 'aalimas who don't benefit the community, who are busy at home nurturing the kids, as you mentioned or just not doing anything. Also, don't you think a practising doctor/spe******t is even more beneficial to the community than the normal bog standard alima who teaches at maktab once a week? For example, a practising Muslimah GP with Islamic knowledge in a Muslim area, who sees Muslim patients on a daily basis, would be an immense benefit to the community as she would be able to advise where appropiate with her Islamic knowledge too.



My personal view is that unless you are living in a community with an abundance of aalims/ aalimah and where the situation of the Muslims is not worrying, an aalimah should use the extra time she has after her home duties to spread Islamic knowledge. There are is so much ignorance amongst women and so much work to do on the Muslim female population. Aalimahs who are capable and are intelligent enough to become a doctor can bring so much benefit to the community.

I agree that everyone, whether aalima or not, should contribute to the community. However, they are many ways of contributing, the best way is not always, via maktab.


If there is a need for female doctors, then you don’t need to be an alimah to be a Muslim female doctor. A practising Muslimah, who is able to work and who is aware of the Islamic rulings related to her profession (permissible medication, treatment, etc) could do a good enough job. Save the aalimahs for deeni work.

This is where you are completely wrong. Do you really think people become 'aalimas so that they can be known as 'aalimas and people will look up to them, and that they must now go and spread that? There are people who study the 'aalima course so they can gain knowledge and become better Muslims internally. And this is what it should be about. Unfortuantely the way the alima course is advertised is, come over, study the aalima course, you are now a scholar, go and enforce it on others. The truth is we all know the aalima course doesn't make you a scholar, it doesn't make you anywhere near a scholar. It is just the start of being a student of knowledge. And to somehow restrict people from learning the religion of Islam (which was revelead to ALL - not just aalimas) is a gross injustice.

[UmHasan]

My dear sister muminah. You have repeatedly made your disdain for aalimahs pretty clear and this post makes that all the more evident. I was initially reluctant to give my opinion because I anticipated an emotional and indignant response. I disagree with much of what you have written, but will address it later on in the day or week :insh:. Sometime these SF threads move too fast for me; you write a post and the next time you visit it has enough pages to fill a book.

In the meantime, I would request that if you want to listen to an opinion other than what you have expressed, please tone down the emotive language.

[muminah]

My dear sister muminah. You have repeatedly made your disdain for aalimahs pretty clear and this post makes that all the more evident. I was initially reluctant to give my opinion because I anticipated an emotional and indignant response. I disagree with much of what you have written, but will address it later on in the day or week :insh:. Sometime these SF threads move too fast for me; you write a post and the next time you visit it has enough pages to fill a book.

In the meantime, I would request that if you want to listen to an opinion other than what you have expressed, please tone down the emotive language.

JazakAllah for your naseeha :) I look forward to your response.

However, I have no disdain for aalimas. I have a lot of respect for 'aalimas. My point was just that they are not scholars, rather students of knowledge. And this view I have heard from not only many scholars, but also from many senior aalimas too.

[London786]

See the point is that a man has to earn for his family. I don't expect 1 penny from my wife. In such a case I'm not saying it's more halal for men but the fact is the responsilbility to provide is not on the woman but the man. I understand that in situations of neccesity there is some flexibility however in most cases it is just not neccessary. It's all about buying expensive handbags and going on holiday twice a year and buying a expensive house on interest with huge monthly installments. Let me give you an example. In the UAE the arab women are filthy rich but they still decide to work. The reason is that many of them see it as a social thing. I know many parents who don't want their daughters to work and have provided all their needs but these daughters brainwashed by western ideals want some bloody freedom....What freedom? I mean if you told me that I could chill at home all day and never work a day in my life I would be over the moon and start doing other things. This is actually one of the signs of the final hour. Women working....

Also I agree we need female doctors examining females however to be frank with you I am not prepared to sacrifice the imaan of my daughter for such things. I have never let a man see my wife and always requested females. Maybe we should start some lobby group in this regard as I'm sure we will get many non-muslims supporting us.

Sister Muminah your telling me that freemixing will not occur at university? I gave you my personal example. Now unless someone has something seriously wrong with them they will commit haraam. I mean it's just not natural to put young men and women together and have girls giving their numbers and email addresses and conversing for long periods and not feeling attraction. Even those that don't actually commit zina spend their time fantizing about it etc. I was at university and even the practicingg brothers and sisters were all talking about husband/wife...

Most affairs start from the workplace. The lady/man meet someone charming at work and bingo they hit it off. Even kuffar statistics prove this.

I am also not keen on men studying at university and even working in a mixed environment however due to neccesity what other choice do they have?

Anyway I am totally against women working and studying in mixed environments. I am also against women working in a totally segregated environment if that means putting the poor kids into nursery from 6 months for 7-10 hours per day. I have personally witnessed this myself...

[muminah]

Sister Muminah your telling me that freemixing will not occur at university? I gave you my personal example. Now unless someone has something seriously wrong with them they will commit haraam. I mean it's just not natural to put young men and women together and have girls giving their numbers and email addresses and conversing for long periods and not feeling attraction. Even those that don't actually commit zina spend their time fantizing about it etc. I was at university and even the practicingg brothers and sisters were all talking about husband/wife...

I know many Muslimahs who have gone through university without free mixing (group work was an ALL female group) and without exchanging numbers or even talking. I have been to university too, and what you describe, I have not found amongst the practising sisters. Maybe you are looking at things from a male perspective and I am from a female perspective? Because of the natural urge of the male species, they find it harder to survive in a mixed environment without falling into temptation?


Most affairs start from the workplace. The lady/man meet someone charming at work and bingo they hit it off. Even kuffar statistics prove this.

Most affairs start online or with the gardner. The sharee'ah can't ban something just on the basis of some people falling in that trap. If we take that analogy, do we ban window cleaners near our windows too?

[muminah]

I am also against women working in a totally segregated environment if that means putting the poor kids into nursery from 6 months for 7-10 hours per day. I have personally witnessed this myself...

As a personal opinion, I agree with you too (and it is actually something I feel very strongly about), especially when this is just funding a lavish lifestyle (poor kids). However, this is my personal opinion, and unless I had concrete evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah (not something where there is a difference of opinion), I wouldn't impose my opinion on others justifying as it being as part of the laws of Allah.

[London786]

gotta dash and I agree that it's more of a male thing but let me tell you so many sisters are gulliable and prone to getting abused....well leaving the house is not allowed except in certain cases.....anyway sister I will leave it as I know you believe strongly in female rights :cheesygri kdding and I will leave appa soupy to answer the questions....As one of the salaf said if women knew what goes around in the heads of men they would look themselves up and never come out....Anyway don't want to offend you or anybody. I shall let other sisters answer your objections

[muminah]

gotta dash and I agree that it's more of a male thing but let me tell you so many sisters are gulliable and prone to getting abused....well leaving the house is not allowed except in certain cases.....anyway sister I will leave it as I know you believe strongly in female rights :cheesygri kdding and I will leave appa soupy to answer the questions....As one of the salaf said if women knew what goes around in the heads of men they would look themselves up and never come out....Anyway don't want to offend you or anybody. I shall let other sisters answer your objections

You haven't offended me at all and wouldn't (despite whatever you say), I'm glad that I have had this discussion with a non female. Sometimes it is good to get the other side's perspective, jazakAllah!

[Helper_man]

I started a writing a reply a couple of days ago but left it unfinished. I know find that Brother London786 has already written exactly what was in my head, but thought I’d post my version anyway:

For male scholars (aalims) it’s a different matter. They are responsible for the household finances and therefore will need a well paid job to support their families. They also have less responsibilities pertaining to homemaking so can combine the two professions with ease.

For a female scholar (aalimah) it’s a different case. If she becomes a doctor first then by the time she becomes an aalimah, then unless she’s doing a part time course after she’s married and is good at balancing two profession and a home life, she’ll be quite old and will have delayed marriage which is not advisable for a young girl. If she becomes an aalimah first and then chooses to become a doctor then that will mean she has to forsake many of the Islamic values that aalimahs try to spread in the community such as preventing intermingling with the opposite gender, pardah, emphasis on home making and nurturing children etc. An aalimah is an supposed to be an example to the community and this responsibility, whether she like it not means she has to act upon things that may be permissible but are best avoided.

It also means that she’ll probably end up practising as a doctor rather than an aalimah, as that is the better paid job. One less aalimah for the community of Muslim women to benefit from.

My personal view is that unless you are living in a community with an abundance of aalims/ aalimah and where the situation of the Muslims is not worrying, an aalimah should use the extra time she has after her home duties to spread Islamic knowledge. There are is so much ignorance amongst women and so much work to do on the Muslim female population. Aalimahs who are capable and are intelligent enough to become a doctor can bring so much benefit to the community.

If there is a need for female doctors, then you don’t need to be an alimah to be a Muslim female doctor. A practising Muslimah, who is able to work and who is aware of the Islamic rulings related to her profession (permissible medication, treatment, etc) could do a good enough job. Save the aalimahs for deeni work.

Obviously this would only apply to aalimahs who are capable and practising themselves. A graduate from the dars nizaami course who is not very practising and does not adhere to the shari’ requirements in pardah etc would be a poor example and not be much use to the community.
I

JazakAllah khair sister, I appreciate your point of view. Logical.

[ummitaalib]

assalaamu 'alaykum ww

reading the posts here something comes to mind which i've often heard ...If even Hasan al Basri and Rabiyyah Basriyyah were to be in today's university/college environment, they would be likely to fall prey to Shaytaan's ploys...or something to that effect.

I would most likely upset a lot of people here but the fact remains that women are not allowed to leave their homes without necessity and when they do when the necessity arises, they have to comply by the shar'ee rules of hijaab...i'm all for women contributing in society however it has to be done by remaining well within the limits of the sharee'ah.

[ummitaalib]

The sharee'ah can't ban something just on the basis of some people falling in that trap.

Sis muminah, i must say i find this statement quite upsetting and worrying. The sharee'ah is the law of Allah and no one can "ban" or even "unban" at their own descretion...and every prohibition is nothing but the mercy of Allah subhaanahu wata'ala as He is saving us from harm

[muminah]

Sis muminah, i must say i find this statement quite upsetting and worrying. The sharee'ah is the law of Allah and no one can "ban" or even "unban" at their own descretion...and every prohibition is nothing but the mercy of Allah subhaanahu wata'ala as He is saving us from harm

You are correct, I wrote that in haste, without making myself clear. What I meant was we can't ban something just because some people may fall into the trap, without having a shar'ee basis to do so.

JazakAllah for pointing it out :)

[festa]

The responses to the sisters initial question typifies the lack of understanding, knowledge and erroneous beliefs prevelent in the ummah today. Alhumdullilah we have people like sister soupy and london786, who have highlighted this!

My two cents sister, find some pious and knowledgeable people and make mushwera with them, where are you exactly the least we could do is to point you to some suitable people!

[muminah]

I would most likely upset a lot of people here but the fact remains that women are not allowed to leave their homes without necessity and when they do when the necessity arises, they have to comply by the shar'ee rules of hijaab...i'm all for women contributing in society however it has to be done by remaining well within the limits of the sharee'ah.

Who defines what necessity is? Is going shopping a necessity? Why not do it online? Is going to teach at maktab a necessity? Why not conduct the class online whilst sitting at home? There is no fatwa that I have seen that bans a woman from going shopping. However, when a woman wants to contribute to society whether thats by going out to become an alima or a doctor, we have fatwas discouraging that. Is that the Prophetic way?

Is going to university for men (who don't require a degree to work) a necessity too when they are more prey to fall into fitnah than women are?

Dr. Mansur, what is your take on this?

[ummitaalib]

Who defines what necessity is? Is going shopping a necessity? Why not do it online? Is going to teach at maktab a necessity? Why not conduct the class online whilst sitting at home? There is no fatwa that I have seen that bans a woman from going shopping. However, when a woman wants to contribute to society whether thats by going out to become an alima or a doctor, we have fatwas discouraging that. Is that the Prophetic way?

Is going to university for men (who don't require a degree to work) a necessity too when they are more prey to fall into fitnah than women are?

Dr. Mansur, what is your take on this?

The sharee'at defines what is a "necessity"...yes if a woman does not have the support of a mahram then she can go shopping and to earn a living and in fact lets add to that and say she can go visiting the sick, to do taa'ziyat, to attend a lecture at a masjid and a whole load of other permissible activies as long as its within the limits of the sharee'at. I did not say there is a fatwa which bans a woman from going shopping. In fact if a woman became a doctor, dentist etc in a woman only university and then practised by seeing ony women/children then who can deny her? The point is there is no such facility and women generally do not comply with the shar'ee hijab when going out. So a woman would be sinful wherever she goes if she leaves the home without the shar'ee hijab

As for men, they are sinful too if they do not comply with the laws of the sharee'ah.....even when out shopping or at the doctor's or at work they too have to comply with the laws of Islam....

[Helper_man]

Asalam Alykum,

This thread was a good read and it has different view points so it s great reading them.

But after reading some brother and sisters view points I feel you complicate the deen, since when does islam say there has to be 100% gender segregation? Why cant female medical students interact with males in group study or environment as far as their "intension" is to work. How did sahaba interact at their times? I very well remember watching interviews of great scholars agreeing that Sahabiy and sahabiyye used to interact without complete segregation. And those times, the land was lawless so im assuming problems would have been there but different from what we face now.

The times have changed and we need female scholars and doctors to save the next generation. It IS our necessity that we need female scholars and doctors to approach the future fitnah in a better way. It is totally dependent on the individual on which route he or she takes to acheive the goals depending on the fact that Allah swt has chosen them to be an alim and a doctor.

To young sisters opting this path, may Allah swt bless your way and guide you correctly.

[Fatima Noor]

Asalaamualakum,

I wanted to become a doctor so snap I understand ur situation. I wanted to become one so bad I used to say I wont let anything get in my way i am definatly going to become one astaghfirullah. I asked my self one very simple question what is life and how will the medical profession help me? I slowly started to incline towards deen and I realised:

1.one must keep a balance between deen and duniya
2.we need money to live but that does not mean that we live for the sake of money
3.have duniya but nit at the cost of ur deen
4.men and women are equal but their roles are different

I as a woman am obliged in life to be as supportive wife and look after the needs of my husband, look after my kids and nurturing my children and by the way bringing kids up is one of the most difficult jihaad ever, it is not to be taken lightly because our kids will be a part of the muslim community and they are not brought up to be steadfast muslims they will not be able to aid the spread of Islam. What does the ummah need more? What are in need of more at this current time of crises? Doctors of the soul or doctors of the body. Also, medicine is a profession which requires lifetime commitment and despite whatever one says in the case of women this is at the cost of your deen because as a doctor in this modern time and the rapid rate of medical technological advancement you will have to study and pass exams all your life in order to maintain your practitioners certificate. The most lineant hijab for a woman is the Kihmer and Jilbaab (A headscarf and an outercover to cover you clothes), and yes this is possibble when beocming a doctour at uni.

Also sister dont take becoming an aalima lightly. From your words it seems you think its at matter of a period of time and then thats it youll now the tafsir and hadeeth but that not the case shaikh thalaabee said knowledge is an ocean which has no shore! Even if we study all our life we will not completley cover all our deen- its not possible. We have many doctors of medicine but very few doctors of the deen and maybe thats why we have neglected our souls so much that we are in state of such disunity and helplessness. Sister, you are young and I believe you deserve to give more time to your Islam. I love medicine in fact I have purchased some medical encyclopedias which read and enhance my knowledge. Sister I am not saying dont do a degree of educate, I am saying dont do a degree or choose a profession that will make you compramise your deen and islamic values. And the profession of becoming an aalima is a very noble profession as Allah SWT says in the Quran that the noblest of you is the one who learns the Quran and teaches the Quran.

Lastly, sister I think that you shoudl do istikhara and seek Allah's guidence.

Take Care
Asalaamualkaum :)

[UmHasan]

Discouraging the free intermingling of men and women is not something that extremists have thought up. It is a part of Islam and has been since the days of the Prophet :saw: . There are many ahadeeth and fiqhi rulings that will clarify it. As Muslims we are not suggesting men and women live in completely separate and parallel worlds where no man ever speaks to or comes into contact with a female. That would be unrealistic and impractical. But free and restrictive intermingling should be avoided. An environment, where men and women sit next to each other, make friends with one another, are often alone with one another is a breeding ground for fitnah and immoral relationships.

See http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=1341
and http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=d3e93a1484c5c5e4c6a17a6704f30c30

As a Muslim community, we should look for alternatives and in the case of need, make decisions wisely. My sister went into higher education but she chose a course where her class was a group of females only. She did not have any male friends and I would be surprised if she even had a complete conversation with another boy during her time there. When she had children she retrained and the second time round chose a course that also had a class of females only. It is possible to be educated and do so within the limits of shariah. You just need to be a bit creative in finding solutions.

Anyway, secular education of women has need discussed and discussed on this forum and some very sensible and knowledgeable people have given their opinions. Please seek these discussions out if you wish to see both sides of the argument and do what you think is closer to what Allah and His Messenger command. If you prefer the opinion of scholars then seek out ones you trust and have confidence in and act upon their advice.

There is no need to exaggerate by suggesting shariah is ‘banning’ women from secular education. Education refines a person and shariah does not ban women from studying at all. Every women should be educated in deen and dunya and if my daughter decided to stop studying after her GCSEs, I would be a very disappointed parent.

Anyway, the real discussion of this thread is AALIMAS becoming doctors. Not Muslim women become doctors. Not aalims becoming doctors. But aalimahs. This is what we are discussing here. So don’t mix these groups up and tackle them as one as the advice given to each is completely different.

Sister muminah, I’ll respond to your post later :insh: because as usual, I have so much to say to you. :-)

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Discouraging the free intermingling of men and women is not something that extremists have thought up. It is a part of Islam and has been since the days of the Prophet :saw: . There are many ahadeeth and fiqhi rulings that will clarify it. As Muslims we are not suggesting men and women live in completely separate and parallel worlds where no man ever speaks to or comes into contact with a female. That would be unrealistic and impractical. But free and restrictive intermingling should be avoided. An environment, where men and women sit next to each other, make friends with one another, are often alone with one another is a breeding ground for fitnah and immoral relationships.

See http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=1341
and http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=d3e93a1484c5c5e4c6a17a6704f30c30

As a Muslim community, we should look for alternatives and in the case of need, make decisions wisely. My sister went into higher education but she chose a course where her class was a group of females only. She did not have any male friends and I would be surprised if she even had a complete conversation with another boy during her time there. When she had children she retrained and the second time round chose a course that also had a class of females only. It is possible to be educated and do so within the limits of shariah. You just need to be a bit creative in finding solutions.

Anyway, secular education of women has need discussed and discussed on this forum and some very sensible and knowledgeable people have given their opinions. Please seek these discussions out if you wish to see both sides of the argument and do what you think is closer to what Allah and His Messenger command. If you prefer the opinion of scholars then seek out ones you trust and have confidence in and act upon their advice.

There is no need to exaggerate by suggesting shariah is ‘banning’ women from secular education. Education refines a person and shariah does not ban women from studying at all. Every women should be educated in deen and dunya and if my daughter decided to stop studying after her GCSEs, I would be a very disappointed parent.

Anyway, the real discussion of this thread is AALIMAS becoming doctors. Not Muslim women become doctors. Not aalims becoming doctors. But aalimahs. This is what we are discussing here. So don’t mix these groups up and tackle them as one as the advice given to each is completely different.

Sister muminah, I’ll respond to your post later :insh: because as usual, I have so much to say to you. :-)

:ws:

Not for becoming a Doctor but for anything else...

2 words = Open University

Yes many courses have Summer & Tutorial sections but there is a lot of choice in picking a female tutor and also picking courses (like IT) which has minimal face-to-face contacts.

:jazak:

[abuhajira]

JazakAllah for your naseeha :) I look forward to your response.

However, I have no disdain for aalimas. I have a lot of respect for 'aalimas. My point was just that they are not scholars, rather students of knowledge. And this view I have heard from not only many scholars, but also from many senior aalimas too.

:salam: sister,

this is not a response to you. It is actually what came to my mind when I read your post, especially the bold part. And to top it all off it is in form of poetry I just read the other day. The crux and my message is depicted in the last couplet..

@Aapa Soupy, and all who can understand urdu.

Please read the following. I cannot pen down my thought of this moment better than whats below...


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5092/hazratwalakirayehamainm.jpg

:ws:

[bint_iftikhar]

sometimes a woman is not blessed with the ideal islamic family values where the husband provides and the wife is not expected to support herself. in my experience, the parents force the daughter to study in this field or the husband forces the wife to work, or maybe the situation just arises in that they need both parents to work in order to survive. sometimes its not always about "handbags" but more about putting food on the table for their children. sure you don't need to study for years and become a doctor just to get a job, but in other fields, intermingling does occur, right? I go to a college and I find no problem in staying away from opposite gender, when I need to do partner work I pick a girl, I sit primarily on my own or with other females, I don't know, I just don't feel that it is impossible and that my iman is at stake. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[abuhajira]

If the Muslim women are not going to take this responsibility, then who is? Didn't Umar RA encourage his wife to work as a midwife? Didn't Umar RA make a woman the head of the markets in Madinah, managing them 24/7?


:salam:

I was really not going to get into this SAME thread again. Sister muminah, we HAD discussed almost ALL the points you are making. Please make use of the search facility and re-read our past discussion. In a quicky...

a. If Males are not available to take care of the needs of women, THEN only will the women given rukhsah to take care of themselves. That is the basic jist of women emerging from homes...
b. Being a midwife (in that day and age) was 1100% different than what it is today. No that was not a typo, and yest that was an exageration to convey the point. Are you willing to also deliver a stranger's baby in a shanty motel outside your community? If you are, please get permission from the Health dept as you will be the culprit and not a helper. Things are different now. There are many facilities available. Before jumping for the rukhsa situations, atleast exploit the avenues which have already been provided.
c. NO, Umar r.a did not appoint any lady to govern the whole market. This was already discussed last time. please go back and read up.

:ws:

[muminah]

c. NO, Umar r.a did not appoint any lady to govern the whole market. This was already discussed last time. please go back and read up.

Umar RA appointed Shifa bint Abdillah (a sahabiyyah) to supervise the markets of madinah.

[muminah]

b. Being a midwife (in that day and age) was 1100% different than what it is today. No that was not a typo, and yest that was an exageration to convey the point. Are you willing to also deliver a stranger's baby in a shanty motel outside your community? If you are, please get permission from the Health dept as you will be the culprit and not a helper. Things are different now. There are many facilities available. Before jumping for the rukhsa situations, atleast exploit the avenues which have already been provided.

How is being a midwife any different? The aim was the same thing, help the mother whilst she gives birth. In fact there is more need today, as women are afraid to even think about giving birth without a professional midwife on call.

[ummitaalib]

salaams
so i want to prove that she is wrong, and you can be an alima and learn deen then study too and wear islamic clothes jubba etc. (i know purdah is not allowed but some alimas don't wear purdah so it's not that bad i think).
thank you, jazakallah.

dear sister, i've come back to your post as something kept bothering me. Basically you are saying that if you are not allowed full purdah then its ok as "some alimas dont wear purdah so its not that bad"...do you see whats happened here? You feel its ok not to do purdah because "some alimas" dont...

A person who studies Qur'an and Hadith and becomes an 'Aalim/ ' Aalimah has a responsibility to the awwaam. They are now inheritors of the Ambiyaa and as such they have a "shaan" to uphold. To act contrary to the sharee'ah is now unthinkable.

If you were to become an alima and a doctor to "prove a point" (as you say) and you cant/dont do purdah while studying and practicing as a doctor then how does it reflect on the Ulama? Others will follow thinking (as you think now) that its ok for an 'aalimah not wear purdah and attend universities! Please do think about this and since you care about your deen, i hope you make mashwara with a scholar

[ILM_Sika]

Subhaa'Allah sister, your doing a great job, keep up the good work. Please ignore people's negative advice, especially if it's got nothing to do with Quran and Sunnah. Just put your best foot forward, and keep within the guidelines Allah s.w.t has set for you, sky's your limit ;)

[muminah]

A person who studies Qur'an and Hadith and becomes an 'Aalim/ ' Aalimah has a responsibility to the awwaam. They are now inheritors of the Ambiyaa and as such they have a "shaan" to uphold. To act contrary to the sharee'ah is now unthinkable.

Isn't it always unthinkable to act contrary to the sharee'ah, whether you are an aalima or not? If someone is told the rulings related to for example hijab, whether they are 'aalima or not, they still have to act upon it. Does something really become more fardh if you are an 'aalima?

It is really sad, but I know at least 20 girls who left the 'aalima course mid way because they thought Muslim society wouldn't allow them to live without wearing niqab (and this is ofcourse reflected in your opinion and others). And that was the only reason. It is sad that these individuals left the blessed study of hadeeth just because the public expects them to be somehow holier than them, even though the public are also aware of the same knowledge (pertaining to niqab) in exactly the same way as these potential aalimas.

[bint_iftikhar]

well yes it is always unthinkable, but its a very big role to fulfill once you've become an alim/alimah. you are now an example for the masses. so it is imperative to behave well because others will use how you behave as proof for their own actions. but this isn't only limited to ulema, anyone who dons more religious clothing or is known to be more religious will be an example for others and a representation of islam. but more so for the ulema bc they have actually put in so much time to study and they are supposed to be the "shepherds of the flock" so to say, a source of guidance for the general public. and if you see your "leader" doing something wrong, that will be a blow to your own iman, or you will start thinking its okay and do it as well, or disregard that particular thing.

[abuhajira]

Umar RA appointed Shifa bint Abdillah (a sahabiyyah) to supervise the markets of madinah.

:salam:

Please read the full statement... "This was already discussed last time. please go back and read up.".. Here is where it was discussed. The issue was brought up by Umm Sabr, and then on my request Enigma finally managed to search the information about her. Upon which I had commented later on. Here is the link : http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?52631-What-are-your-opinions-on-women-in-the-workplace/page5

Occasionally we simply dramatize something unusual and make it our proof. This is one of those cases. Its amazing that we do not go to such length of using isolated single events to establish home as the sanctuary for women. We wont talk about ansaar looking like crows because of jilbab. We wont dramatize Sahabiya taking firm resolve to make her inner most room as masjid and never to leave her home for salah. No sister, we will only glamorize these isolated special scenarios and construct a make belief set of guidelines for ourselves, because it suits our nafs and more so, it conforms with the norms of our times.



How is being a midwife any different? The aim was the same thing, help the mother whilst she gives birth. In fact there is more need today, as women are afraid to even think about giving birth without a professional midwife on call.

Yes, go and be a midwife and deliver babies at home. I will commend you. As per my understanding there is a huge market for natural birth midwives. So then I wonder, why make it an issue to be a gynecologist when MOST of the general situations can easily be tackled by a home midwife.

GP position can also be done through home. If someone is willing to do MD and be a General Practitioner, then they can take the trouble of moving to Pakistan and doing some studies in all women medical schools. The only problem I would have is that it is not required to have a female GP. A female Non muslim, or a Male muslim GP is as good. But then so is a non muslim female gyne or a Male gyne (if the first is not available). If the patient feels unconfortable then the patient has to gain some courage, not that you open the doors for other muslimahs to go and get into haram while they study, just so that you dont feel uncomfortable.

:ws:

[Rahmaniyyah]

:salam:

Sister muminah: I see your perspective/understand where your coming from on a lot of you points. Just one thing - the bit about something being more fardh on an Alimah - it's not about being more fardh, but she just has a billion times more responsibility. Possessing knowledge makes you accountable - and more knowledge makes you more accountable.

A very experienced scholar, who is well-acquainted with Western audiences and is influential amongst Muslims (he is also educated at Uni and is probably more "modern" than senior Ulama may like) would say that the Ulama need to up their level way beyond the Awaam. And this includes in dress. They need to wear the Sunnah FULL because the Awaam always have a tendency to sit themselves one-notch-below the scholar - and this is an observable truth. Even if it's not a physical difference at least in their thinking and their tolerance, there will be a tendency to feel more comfortable in a position lower to that of the practice of the scholar. The Ulama are viewed by the Awam as Khawas so they will always feel that the Ulama should be a position above the average.

So I'm not saying it's a good thing those sisters dropped out of Alimah course because of Niqab, but I think the pressures are justified to some extent. Even if they don't believe it to be Wajib, it is at least recommended and the scholar should be firm on the recommended for the reason above. Maybe if they pursued their studies and maintain a connection to their field they would also agree with the above.

:ws:

[muminah]

:salam:

Please read the full statement... "This was already discussed last time. please go back and read up.".. Here is where it was discussed. The issue was brought up by Umm Sabr, and then on my request Enigma finally managed to search the information about her. Upon which I had commented later on. Here is the link : http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?52631-What-are-your-opinions-on-women-in-the-workplace/page5

Occasionally we simply dramatize something unusual and make it our proof. This is one of those cases. Its amazing that we do not go to such length of using isolated single events to establish home as the sanctuary for women. We wont talk about ansaar looking like crows because of jilbab. We wont dramatize Sahabiya taking firm resolve to make her inner most room as masjid and never to leave her home for salah. No sister, we will only glamorize these isolated special scenarios and construct a make belief set of guidelines for ourselves, because it suits our nafs and more so, it conforms with the norms of our times.

You are clearly ignoring evidence (as clearly seen in the thread you linked too - you are fooling no one), as 'your norm' is not to allow women out of the house. Well anyhow, you are not a scholar, I'd much rather take my deen from someone who is, and basis his evidence clearly on the Qur'an and Sunnah, and practices of the Sahaba, instead of sticking admantly to your own cultural norm.

[muminah]

:salam:

Sister muminah: I see your perspective/understand where your coming from on a lot of you points. Just one thing - the bit about something being more fardh on an Alimah - it's not about being more fardh, but she just has a billion times more responsibility. Possessing knowledge makes you accountable - and more knowledge makes you more accountable.

A very experienced scholar, who is well-acquainted with Western audiences and is influential amongst Muslims (he is also educated at Uni and is probably more "modern" than senior Ulama may like) would say that the Ulama need to up their level way beyond the Awaam.

JazakAllah for the explanation.

[ummitaalib]

Isn't it always unthinkable to act contrary to the sharee'ah, whether you are an aalima or not? If someone is told the rulings related to for example hijab, whether they are 'aalima or not, they still have to act upon it. Does something really become more fardh if you are an 'aalima?

It is really sad, but I know at least 20 girls who left the 'aalima course mid way because they thought Muslim society wouldn't allow them to live without wearing niqab (and this is ofcourse reflected in your opinion and others). And that was the only reason. It is sad that these individuals left the blessed study of hadeeth just because the public expects them to be somehow holier than them, even though the public are also aware of the same knowledge (pertaining to niqab) in exactly the same way as these potential aalimas.

Yes of course that goes without saying sis muminah...if something is fardh it is so for everyone...
but dont you think a person of knowledge who is supposed to set an example should not even think as these 'aalimas thought who left their studies? This surely does mean it is "more" fardh on them. The public is not asking them to be "holier than thou" and in fact none of us should be so. Their leaving aalimah studies for this reason shows that perhaps the laws stated in the Qur'an and Hadith are not important to them...what is the point of having 'ilm of the Qur'an and Hadith and then not applying it and not becoming a means for others to apply it. Just take the example of the sister who started this thread, she felt it was "not bad" if one became an 'aalimah and then in becoming a doctor if one is not allowed the niqab its not a bad thing

[ummitaalib]

I'd much rather take my deen from someone who is, and basis his evidence clearly on the Qur'an and Sunnah, and practices of the Sahaba, instead of sticking admantly to your own cultural norm.

dear dear sister, this is not a "cultural norm"...to do full hijaab is part of our deen, to not go out without necessity is also a command. Once the command was revealed the Sahaabiyaat (the best of women) all did purdah from the Sahaabah (the best of men)! I always find it amazing how we argue about this time and again when their examples stare us in the face and we are certainly not the at the level of piety they were!

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

I'd like to contribute,however,I don't have the time atm,so I' will just paste something here. :insh: this will be of benefit:

given my privelagege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be
something I'm not--and in all honesty--don't want to be: a man. As
women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic
men, and value the beauty in our own Allah-given distinctiveness.
On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah
(Friday) prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being
more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our Allah-given
liberation? I don't think so.
What we so often forget is that Allah has honoured the woman by giving
her value in relation to Allah-not in relation to men. But as western
feminism erases Allah from the scene, there is no standard left-but men.
As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to
a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has
accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full
human being until she becomes just like a man-the standard.
When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a
man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these
things for no other reason than because the 'standard' had it. What she
didn't recognize was that Allah dignifies both men and women in
their distinctiveness--not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim
women made the very same mistake. For 1400 years there has been a
consensus of the scholars that men are to lead prayer. As a Muslim
woman, why does this matter? The one who leads prayer is not
spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a
man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it's leading.
Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn't
the Prophet have asked Ayesha or Khadija, or Fatima-the greatest
women of all time-to lead?
These women were promised heaven-and yet they never lead
prayer. But now for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man
leading prayer and we think, 'That's not fair.' We think so although Allah
has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of Allah than the one who prays behind. On the other
hand, only a woman can be a mother. And Allah has given special
privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet
of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So
why is that not unfair? When asked who is most deserving of our kind
treatment? The Prophet replied 'your mother' three times before
saying 'your father' only once. Isn't that sexist? No matter what a
man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother. And
yet even when Allah honors us with something uniquely feminine, we
are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it-or
even notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything
uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult,
becoming a mother-a degradation.
In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and selfless
compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme.
As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all
that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it-we want it too. If
men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray
in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer
to Allah, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we've
accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some
indication of one's position with Allah.
A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She
has Allah as a standard. She has Allah to give her value; she doesn't
need a man.
In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped
to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some
cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men.
Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left
the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told
that it was women's liberation to abandon the raising of another human
being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a
36
factory was superior to raising the foundation of society-just because a
man did it.
Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman-the perfect
mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker-and have the perfect
career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman
having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by
blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers
and soon recognized the privilege we'd given up.
And so only now-given the choice-women in the West are choosing
to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States
Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies,
and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working
full-time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by
Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they
would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work
due to 'financial obligations'. These 'obligations' are imposed on
women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed
from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam.
It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to
realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago.
Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to
be something I'm not--and in all honesty--don't want to be: a man.
As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying
to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own Allah-given
distinctiveness.
If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose
compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and
heaven at my feet-I choose heaven.


as well as:http://al-haq.themajlis.net/node/115

was salaam

[abuhajira]

You are clearly ignoring evidence (as clearly seen in the thread you linked too - you are fooling no one), as 'your norm' is not to allow women out of the house. Well anyhow, you are not a scholar, I'd much rather take my deen from someone who is, and basis his evidence clearly on the Qur'an and Sunnah, and practices of the Sahaba, instead of sticking admantly to your own cultural norm.

:salam:

Jazak allah for confirming exactly what the other thread was intended for. Apparently no amount of evidence will help you see the Bright Light of a Mid day Sun glaring in your face. So Who am I to claim that I will convince you.

Please read that thread again, and then also read the thread on women and grave. and also the thread about women getting higher education. ALL these threads have sufficient evidences from Quran and Sunnah. Unless maybe you are seeking clarity from some other Shariah.

:ws:

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

I'd like to contribute,however,I don't have the time atm,so I' will just paste something here. :insh: this will be of benefit:



as well as:http://al-haq.themajlis.net/node/115

was salaam

Jazakallah for posting this....what wisdom...and from a woman too!!!

[UmHasan]

Yes, every aalim and aalimah is a student of knowledge and will remain so. Hadhrat Shaykh Zakariyyah RA listed his profession as ‘student’ on his passport. Anyone aalim who is a student of Mawlana Hashim sahib (male or female) will have heard his naseehah on the importance of continuing to seek knowledge after graduating. He emphasizes it by saying, that by gaining this knowledge you now have the salaahiyat to seek further knowledge. This is just the beginning and you are now able engage in further fields of knowledge. He emphasizes the importance of an ongoing relationship with our elders and asaatidha and advises that we recite a chapter of ahaadeeth every day. Otherwise you lose your connection with knowledge. So yes, I still consider myself a student of knowledge :insha: minal mahdi illal lahd: from the cradle to the grave.

But I disagree with you that ulamah are not professionals. Not every professional who has completed his studies will be good at what he does, that doesn’t disqualify him. There have been people in every generation who have belittled the work of the ulamah and considered it a lowly vocation, aimed at the poor and the intellectually disabled. But in the eyes of Allah and his pious servants they have a high ranking in this world and the hereafter. I pray that Allah makes me amongst them because at the moment, I acknowledge I have very far to go.


A woman can quite easily become an alima (or study the alima course as I would prefer to say) until the age of 16/18, and do her schooling at the same time, and when 18 go on to medical school.

There are many problems with this. Access to such great knowledge at such a young age, does not make one appreciative of it and neither will the seeker fully grasp the depth of the subjects he/she is studying. On the one hand you make suggestions such as this and then on the other hand we see you complaining that the young aalimahs don’t understand what they are talking about and are immature. At 16, of course they will be immature.


Well she may have to forsake purdah (face veil), where there is a legitimate difference of opinion anyways. She will not have to foresake intermingling. There are many many practising Muslims in the medcine field. And anyhow why have a different rule for women anyways?

The ruling of the niqab according to the Ahnaaf and the other three imams is that it is wajib. This has been stated over and over again. If you follow the Hanafi school of thought then you need to accept this and move on to thinking of practical ways of implementing it if you feel it difficult to adopt. I find it difficult to understand why you prefer your own interpretation over that of the scholars when in your own words: you prefer to take the deen from scholars.

If the scholars deem something to be wajib, or something to be prohibited why do we seek to disapprove that, find leeways, or attribute it to cultural norms? These rulings have been the opinion of the majority of Islamic scholars for centuries since the time of the sahabah and have not been thought up by some fuddy duddy orange bearded scholars sitting in a remote Indian village.


Is intermingling more haram on women? With regards to home making and nurturing the kids, say she doesn't have children or is not even married?

Yes, intermingling is more haram for women than men, because women have been commanded to conceal themselves and men have been commanded to lower their gaze. The menfolk have not been advised that the best thing for them is that they see no man and no man sees them. They have not been advised to remain in the homes. If you think this is also a cultural thing amongst the Indopak scholars then please read the ruling below provided by an Arab, salafi scholar:

The basic principle is that a woman should remain at home, and not go out except for necessary purposes. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance”
[al-Ahzaab 33:33].

Although this is addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it also applies to the believing women. It is only addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because of their honour and status with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and because they are examples for the believing women.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman is ‘awrah, and if she goes out, the shaytaan raises his hopes (of misguiding her). She is never closer to Allaah than when she stays in her house.” Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and Ibn Khuzaymah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Shaheehah, no. 2688.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning a woman’s prayer in the mosque: “Their houses are better for them.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (567) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

For more information please see the answer to question no. 6742.

Secondly:
It is permissible for a woman to go out of her house for work, but that is subject to certain conditions. If they are met, it is permissible for her to go out. They are:

- That she needs to work in order to acquire the money she needs, as in your case.

- The work should be suited to the nature of woman, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, sewing, and so on.

- The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no mixing with non-mahram men.

- Whilst at work she should observe complete shar’i hijab.

- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.

- Her going out to work should not involve committing any haraam action, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahrams can smell it.

- That should not lead to her neglecting things that are more essential for her, such as looking after her house, husband and children.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said: The field in which a woman works should be only for women, such as if she works in teaching girls, whether in administration or technical support, or she works at home as a seamstress sewing clothes for women and so on. As for working in fields that are for men, this is not permissible for her because it requires her to mix with men, which is a great fitnah (source of temptation and trouble) and should be avoided. It should be noted that it is proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have not left behind me any fitnah that is more harmful to men than women; the fitnah of the Children of Israel had to do with women.” So the man should keep his family away from places of fitnah and its causes in all circumstances. End quote.

Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah (2/981)

If these conditions are met in your work, then there is nothing wrong with you doing it in sha Allaah.
We ask Allaah to grant you a righteous husband, for He is able to do that.
And Allaah knows best.

The above was taken from the website of Shaykh Al Munajjid.


Who says a woman can't delay getting married? In fact a woman or man doesn't need to marry at all if they don't want to. Who are we to enforce our own man made opinions on others?

The Messenger of Allah :saw: is the one who advised that marriage should not be delayed. He is the one who advised that we should marry. The command of Allah and His Messenger may not be acceptable to every human being but it is surely sufficient for the believer.

The Prophet :saw: said ‘Do not delay in three things; 1) The offering of the obligatory prayer. 2) The offering of the funeral prayer when the deceased’s body is present . 3) The marriage of a woman when her couple is found’

He also said ‘A person who posses the means to marry and refrains from doing so, then he is not from amongst us .’

Hence there is ‘no enforcing of man made laws’ going on here.


Well there are many 'aalimas who don't benefit the community, who are busy at home nurturing the kids, as you mentioned or just not doing anything.

A woman’s primary duty is to Allah. Then her husband, her parents, her children and other relatives and neighbours. If a knowledgeable woman chooses not to teach and stays at home to fulfill these duties, this is commendable and :insh: she will gain a high status in the eyes of Allah.

But what would happen if every aalimah decided to stay at home? Who would you go to for matters that you could not speak to an ajnabi male about? Who would teach young girls over the age of 9? Who would encourage and invite other Muslim women to adopt Islamic practices and be a role model to them? You, like many other Muslim women, have benefitted from aalimahs at some point in your life.

The women of today are inquisitive and outgoing by nature, and dare I say it, we can also be stubborn and argumentative. We need knowledgeable and intelligent aalimahs to talk to these women/girls and show them the Islamic path. We all know women are far more receptive to difficult advice when it comes from a fellow woman. If she teaches by example, then it is even more effective.


Also, don't you think a practising doctor/spe******t is even more beneficial to the community than the normal bog standard alima who teaches at maktab once a week? For example, a practising Muslimah GP with Islamic knowledge in a Muslim area, who sees Muslim patients on a daily basis, would be an immense benefit to the community as she would be able to advise where appropiate with her Islamic knowledge too.

I disagree with you that a female GP is more beneficial to the community than an aalimah. One deals with everyday health issues; one deals with matters of deen. In my eyes, the one who deals with deeni matters is more valuable to the community.

And here in your paragraph above you have ignored the crux of this thread: Can a person be an aalimah and doctor? Everyone agrees that a practising Muslimah who works as a doctor can do good to the community. It is about whether an AALIMAH who- as a person who is supposed to be more knowledgeable and is looked on as an example- should thereafter study to become a doctor.

My personal advice is that if that results in her:

a) forsaking certain principles of deen, whether they are wajib or not

b) if it means she has to put marriage on hold, because let’s be realistic; she spends 5-7 years in madrasah and adds what, 8 years to become an doctor?By that time she’s definitely delayed marriage.

c) if it means she will end up sacrificing her duties as mother and wife and daughter, because again, to be a mother/wife and a doctor is demanding enough. To be mother/wife an active aalimah is also demanding . To be all three she’d need an extra 6 hours in her day and the energy of two. Or she’d need to be superwoman.

d) if it means that she is a highly intellectual and knowledgeable aalimah with much potential and she forsakes teaching Islam to become a doctor which is a profession that can be carried out by non-aalimah

...then in my opinion: no, she should either become a doctor, serve her people and practise Islam to the best of her ability. Or she should become an aalimah and serve her people and practise Islam to the best of her ability. Why put pressure on her by advising her to combine the two?

There are some, very few, women who will balance all these roles successfully. They are very few and these gems are hard to find. So it is not the general advice that should be given to any unknown sister who asks over the internet whether she can become an aalimah and a doctor.

---

As for your comments on teaching maktab. Well, this is what I found most disagreeable in your post. There are many people who belittle this blessing, when in reality it is one of the most important khidmaat of deen. In countries where makaatib are not prevalent you will find the people backward in practising Islam. A steady system of maktab in any country will reform its people. It is the foundation of inculcating deen within a person. Ask the Eurosunni team about the advice nearly every scholar they asked gave them, when they approached them about spreading deen in European countries.

And this is not confined to the aalims/ aalimah at the lower end of the scale. My husband tells me how Mufti Abdurrahim Lajpuri sahab, who was considered mufti ul hind in his lifetime, would come to the maktab every year to listen to the nazira recitation of little children and to test them. Even now, you will find aalims of high calibre in the UK involved in the grassroot teaching of maktab.

I consider it a huge, huge and overwhelming privilege to be able teach a young child the kalimah; to teach her the tasmiyyah and to teach her salah. The very first time the kalimah leaves her mouth, the very first time she recites Allah’s words from the Quran and the very first time she offers her salah it is because you have taught her, The sadaqah jaariyah that this will create when she goes on to teach her children/community and they in turn will teach other children is like a never-ending and limitless lottery of thawab. This thought of this blessing overwhelms me. I have taken on a number of projects in my life; none of them gave me as much benefit and pleasure as maktab.

Hadhrat Mawlana Yusuf Motala sahab once said that to teach maktab is one of the highest privileges because you are the person who is connecting a child to Allah’s ibaadah for the very first time. He said that teaching maktab is more virtuous than teaching Bukhari or any other hadeeth kitab at the highest level.

The Messenger of Allah said :saw: ‘ The best from amongst you is the one who learns the Quran and teaches it.’ Maktab teaching is the essence of this.

After this looooooong post, you may still disagree with me. That’s fine. I only wanted to give another perspective. If in the end, a young girl chooses to become a doctor and an aalimah then there is nothing to stop her. I am merely offering her advice and not imposing or restricting anything for her.

(To everyone else reading this, let me assure you there is no love lost between sister muminah and myself. We have had many open and frank discussions in the sisters section and have both benefitted from them. She’s one of my favourite members and hey, I know I’m one of hers too :) )

[ummitaalib]

Jazakillah khayran Aapa soupy......May the young sister who was seeking advice, benefit from your enlightening post and may Allah ta'ala elevate your status in Jannah. Please remember us all in your du'a

[sudoku]

Jazakillah khayran Aapa soupy......May the young sister who was seeking advice, benefit from your enlightening post and may Allah ta'ala elevate your status in Jannah. Please remember us all in your du'a

:salam:

Seconded :)

[bint_iftikhar]

thirded! :)

I just wanted to say that no it is not impossible to wear niqab while being a medical doctor, I am currently studying in the field and am finding no trouble wearing it. I know some sisters who are fully practicing and are wearing it as well. So if people are saying its impossible, well it's not if you really set your mind and don't let the insecurities get to you. If you don't hold to your values then all the little whisperings of shaytan and of people who do not have the same conviction as you will convince you that it would be ok to take it off. But as was mentioned before, it is wajib. and I would rather sacrifice the field than sacrifice the law of Allah swt. And not to mention that your peers and those whom you report to will also respect you all the more for sticking to your values and beliefs.

Also, I go to school in a mixed setting, and as mentioned before I cover myself and keep my gender interaction to a minimum. I don't go to school because of a passion that i have for the field but because of my parents telling me to do so. Is this wrong?

[Mansy]

Did I read correctly. So mufti mansy saheb you are giving the advice that a girl can/should go to become a doctor. Maulana if it was a muslim country with complete segregation then I can understand but what justfication can there be for putting a girl in such an environment? Also there is the problem of wearing niqab which would cause many problems. Niqab would just be the beginning of the problem. There is the issue of group work too and exchanging numbers, emails in this regard. I mean for a man there can be a bit of justification as he needs to provide rizq for his family etc but what justification is there for a lady to be put in such an environment? Let me give you a personal example. I was once involved in group work at university. There were 4 members in the group. Me, a muslim guy, a european guy and some russian girl. Anyway we had loads of meetings etc and worked together and had to exchange numbers/emails....thereafter in the next semester the russian girl is in one of my classes and remembers that we worked together and she sits next to me. I thought that it was just a coincidence. She did this a few times and started getting too friendly. I then missed the rest of the classes for that module in the semester. These kind of incidents are very common.....Group work leads to a lot of interaction and leads to a lot of problems....Unless someone is gay or extremely unattractive they will no doubt fall into temptation. Maulana Mansy saheb a quick look at any college with a sizable muslim presence would show you what is really going on. I mean you were raised in the UK so I'm sure you are aware (though many of the older generation born in the indopak would not be aware or maybe they choose to ignore it and still insist on sending their children to such filthy places)

Also how about marriage etc??? Many of these ladies will delay marriage and unfortunetely the longer marriage is delayed in the west the more problems there are. Either zina will happen or the lady will find it difficult to get married as any lady past the age of 25 the chances of getting married get slimmer by the day. I have personally witnessed many girls becoming alimahs and going into secular education and going astray. I know that the female teachers at the daruloom in Bradford are totally against it.

Maulana Mansy saheb don't you think that the role of the lady needs to be defined these days. I mean now it seems many ladies put their career before marriage, family and children. Before anyone comes up with the issue of neccesity then I do understand however the relatives in my family who work don't really need to work. Yes, they need to work if they want to keep up buying those 500 pounds gucchi handbags but otherwise if they want to lead a simple life then they don't need to work....

Anyway it is time someone addressed these issues. Maulana Mansy saheb this is not a rant against you but just some thoughts that I have. It would be great for some feedback. Please forgive me for any disrespect inshallah

Assalamualaikum brother jazakallah for your nasihat, I don't want to engage in a debate with you neither do I have the time. It's seems that we don't share the same worldview and that's why we're just going to be beating round the bush. You missed one vital point. The russian girl, was she an alima? You talk about looking at college enviroment, we are talking about alimas. Are you trying to say that our alimas are not strong in their iman to study in a college? we studied in college and universities in the midst of all fitnas and alhamdulillah we are still alright. You talk about prolonging nikah will/may lead to zina. I find that very offensive and disrespectful to our alimas (my wife is an alima), it is almost an innundo that we can't trust them. Your comment about age +25 and difficulty in marriage is a fair point. If the husbands allow their wives to study and work then why should we have a problem? As a uni lecturer and researcher on Muslim chaplaincy in the UK I have come across many Alimas who are also chaplains in prisons and the NHS, some are even graduates of the mother institutions Bradford and have the blessings of their apas. As for the whole niqab issue then that is really not a problem. We are living in a pluralistic society where if we know the law and know how to go about it, it can be done. We have many senior chaplains in the NHS such as Maulana Yunus Dhudwala who have made the NHS a very friendly enviroment to work in for Muslim staff. I will leave by saying one thing. What need did sayyiduna Umar b. Khattab have to make a woman by the name shifa the market inspector of Madina? You may want to respond to this post if you want I will not respond back. You have made a point and I have made a point. If you want to have deep ilmi philosophical debates regarding these issue then pop down to cardiff uni one day and we will discuss this over some Bengali biryani. Duas
wassalam
Mansur

p.s. if you are going to use the segregation argument fairly and consistently then this will mean that muslim men are not even allowed to become doctors as they will need to have contact with non-mahram female staff. non-muslim male doctors fulfil the necessity of male muslim doctors? In fact everyone should just stay home because this whole society is anti-segregation. We can order our food and clothes through the internet.:D

[Mansy]

:salam:

Maulana sahab i am in the final year of my PhD (Engineering) , and inshAllah plan to serve deen after that ( i am relatively young early-mid 20's). One of my friends suggested shariah program as the staring point, can you please direct me in this regard ?
Which path would you take ? ... I need someone who's been there to guide me as mostly
the feedback i got was not very encouraging.
I am based in greater Manchester area.

:jazak:

:ws:
Assalamaulaiakum Can you please send me an email, you can get my email through the moderators. I don't want to hijack the thread from it's original topic
wassalam
Mansur

[muminah]

Assalamualaikum brother jazakallah for your nasihat, I don't want to engage in a debate with you neither do I have the time. It's seems that we don't share the same worldview and that's why we're just going to be beating round the bush. You missed one vital point. The russian girl, was she an alima? You talk about looking at college enviroment, we are talking about alimas. Are you trying to say that our alimas are not strong in their iman to study in a college? we studied in college and universities in the midst of all fitnas and alhamdulillah we are still alright. You talk about prolonging nikah will/may lead to zina. I find that very offensive and disrespectful to our alimas (my wife is an alima), it is almost an innundo that we can't trust them. Your comment about age +25 and difficulty in marriage is a fair point. If the husbands allow their wives to study and work then why should we have a problem? As a uni lecturer and researcher on Muslim chaplaincy in the UK I have come across many Alimas who are also chaplains in prisons and the NHS, some are even graduates of the mother institutions Bradford and have the blessings of their apas. As for the whole niqab issue then that is really not a problem. We are living in a pluralistic society where if we know the law and know how to go about it, it can be done. We have many senior chaplains in the NHS such as Maulana Yunus Dhudwala who have made the NHS a very friendly enviroment to work in for Muslim staff. I will leave by saying one thing. What need did sayyiduna Umar b. Khattab have to make a woman by the name shifa the market inspector of Madina? You may want to respond to this post if you want I will not respond back. You have made a point and I have made a point. If you want to have deep ilmi philosophical debates regarding these issue then pop down to cardiff uni one day and we will discuss this over some Bengali biryani. Duas
wassalam
Mansur

p.s. if you are going to use the segregation argument fairly and consistently then this will mean that muslim men are not even allowed to become doctors as they will need to have contact with non-mahram female staff. non-muslim male doctors fulfil the necessity of male muslim doctors? In fact everyone should just stay home because this whole society is anti-segregation. We can order our food and clothes through the internet.:D

:thumbsup: JazakAllah for taking the time to reply, exactly my sentiments :)

[UmHasan]

Respected Mawlana, there are two points in your post that I was quite uncomfortable with.


You talk about prolonging nikah will/may lead to zina. I find that very offensive and disrespectful to our alimas (my wife is an alima),


I have come across many Alimas who are also chaplains in prisons and the NHS, some are even graduates of the mother institutions Bradford and have the blessings of their apas.

Hastening nikah is recommended in the hadeeth and something that the apas at Bradford, along with many of our senior ulamah and mashaaikh have always encouraged and emphasised. Everyone is prone to the deception of shaytaan whether you are an aalim or an aalimah.

Also by reading your post above, some members may assume that the apas at Jamea encourage or support their faarigaats to take on jobs after graduating, by giving them their ‘blessing’. I would like to point out to the other members that this is not the case. They don’t categorically forbid them, but do emphasis that if they wish to seek employment, they should recognise the importance of taking jobs that do not expose them to environments where free mixing and casual relationships amongst sexes is common.

It is not the same for every job. There are public sector jobs such as chaplains, teachers, advisors and community workers that would benefit from being carried out by an aalimah and enable her to use her knowledge to benefit the community in a positive way. If we bypass these opportunities then they will be taken up by people with less knowledge and wisdom who may cause more harm than good. Therefore, if she feels she will not fall into haram because of it, they don’t discourage these jobs. That ‘haram’ is not limited to full blown zinah.

The apas at Jamea are quite firm in matters of the shariah and advise the faarigats to exercise caution in many matters that are generally permissible but not recommended, without being completely unmindful of the changes in time and the needs of society and individuals. They still discourage driving, swimming, attending mixed universities and taking on certain types of jobs etc which many would consider permissible.

I myself, am employed in a public sector job with the local council, which I took up after consultation with my elders. Many aspects were discussed such as the extent of intermingling and ‘exposure’, the employers acceptance of my niqab, their response at my refusal to participate in certain activities along with the effect it would have on my commitment to other khidmaat of deen, before mashwera was given.

Also, I would like to mention that a few years ago I was offered a job in a girls school as Islamic advisor where some of the staff are male and took mashwera from Hadhrat, who simply shook his head to indicate no and said ‘jobs like this are not for us’ (i.e. our women).

By the above, I do not mean to refute your quotes, but just wanted clarify a few things as my experience on SF has taught me that people very easily latch onto a vague statements, add a bit of mirch-masala and then make huge claims in future threads that 'Jamea apas encourage their faarigats to take up employment in mixed environment.'

Finally, the case of a male doctor is surely different from the female, Muslim, aalimah and the two cannot be compared. Nevertheless, there are restrictions for males as well, but of a lower degree. Please see: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?49650-Being-a-female-Doctor...what-are-my-limitations

[nuke]

Assalamaulaiakum Can you please send me an email, you can get my email through the moderators. I don't want to hijack the thread from it's original topic
wassalam
Mansur

JazakAllah Maulana ...
Mods can i have Maulana Dr Mansur's email address please ?!

:ws:

[Antivirus]

I am absolutely shocked by the language and tone used by certain layperson here when they address scholars such as Mawlana Abuhajira and Aapa Soupy. Its sooo depressing. Has this ummah stoop to such a level where not only we dont listen to what ulemas has to say but we have guts to up our voice against their scholarly views, which are absolutely correct according to shariah? No wonder this ummat is in such a bad shape. May Allah forgive us and give us the tawfiq and hidayah to remain firm in the obedience of the rightly guided ulemas. Ameen.

[Helper_man]

I am absolutely shocked by the language and tone used by certain layperson here when they address scholars such as Mawlana Abuhajira and Aapa Soupy. Its sooo depressing. Has this ummah stoop to such a level where not only we dont listen to what ulemas has to say but we have guts to up our voice against their scholarly views, which are absolutely correct according to shariah? No wonder this ummat is in such a bad shape. May Allah forgive us and give us the tawfiq and hidayah to remain firm in the obedience of the rightly guided ulemas. Ameen.

I agree brother, I was thinking the same. Whether its Maulana or a pious person with experience, no one is ready to listen and take advice from them.
Some members here need to learn some adab..

[Fatima Noor]

You talk about prolonging nikah will/may lead to zina. I find that very offensive and disrespectful to our alimas (my wife is an alima), it is almost an innundo that we can't trust them.

Asalaamualkum,
With all due respect, you are and many other people are knowledgeable than me here but I have myself read in the Quran that nikaah should be done A.S.A.P. If the Quran confirms this then how can you say that is offensive to you. I mean to say that Allah has created us and knows us better than we know ourselves; Allah knows we have desires and if Allah has said that it is preferable to get your daughter and sons married of at an early age how can we get up and say its not necessarily important. Astaghfirullah. Allah has even said that it is better for us to get married as it makes it easier to lower our gaze and guard their chastity. It is in the Quran!

I feel, again with all due respect, that this is not an issue of emaan. I dont think we should look at Islam with such a narrow view. This person is not trying to say that aalimas have low emaan, Allah knows best what is concealed in the hearts, rather he is trying to imply that not getting married and increased contact with men will build up desire and the shaytaans wasaas do have an effect on everybody, nobody is perfect. Thus he is trying to say that if you delay nikaah and then on top of that have close contact with men, it will lead to, (as we are all Human and Allah has created us with desire) , this will lead to Zinah.

I hope you understand what I am trying to explain
Asalaamualkum.

[molwisaab]

assalaam u alaikum wr wb,

hazrat alaamah sahib d.b we are really greatfull and thankfull to you that you take your precious time out to answer on this thread , may Allah swt give you barakah in your time and life and knowledge.

with all due respect i agree on many points with you and i think there is a need for our ulema (alims and alimah's) to go further into different fields and proffessions ,as this is a need of the whole ummah.

but the tone that you have used in your reply it seems like the alimashave come down from paradise.Alhamdulillah all of our alimah sisters are more muttaqi then me as i'm a very weak person but the truth is that all of our sisters have their worldly desires with them.

and have the nafs and shaytaan with them like all of us ,and any of us can mistake's.


so please hazrat moulana sahib there is no need to get offended as none of our wifes have come down from jannah .if your wife is an aalimah masha Allah i gues so is brother786 's wife maybe an aalilamas as well.nut that still doesn't make them a saint.

plz forgive me for any disrespect.

jazakallah

[Mansy]

Assalamualaikum Dear all sorry if I caused any offense, I did say that I will not respond but I think people are quoting me out of context and with out understanding the point I was making. Let me try to explain myself. The first post that I posted was a direct response to this thread 'can you be a doctor and alima?' I answered this question without looking at the discussions and replies of others as it is not my nature to engage in debates, I just simply answered the question posed in the topic of the thread. Now there are two ways to interpret this title: (1) Is it in the intelectual capacity of an alima to be a doctor?, (2) Is it permissible for an alima to be a doctor? You can read the title either way. I took the first meaning and that's why I said:


Assalamaualikum sister this is something which is not intrinsically impossible, however it will take a long time, longer than normal because of the two different path ways.

i.e. our alimas are not deficient in their intellect hence it is in their capability if they want to become doctors then they can, like the way an alim if he wants to become a doctor it's not out of his capability. I gave the example of Maulana Ishaq to show longevity of the matter, that he is pushing 30 and yet has not finished. You will notice that I have not mentioned anything about permissibility or impermissibility. You will also notice that I have not engaged in any of the debates as I said what I needed to say. Then brother london786 said


Did I read correctly. So mufti mansy saheb you are giving the advice that a girl can/should go to become a doctor.

First of all I am not a Mufti. I am your average molvi. Secondly can a girl be a doctor, yes it is not out of her intellectual capacity. Should she be a doctor, I have not commented on that. The brother is assuming that I am giving advice. Notice brother uses the word girl in general where the discussion is about are Alimaas who are a bit more than a normal girl.

Brother London786 gave me the whole scenario which I appreciate and grateful to him for, however like I mentioned I don't share the same binary world view as he. I don't see things in just black and white and that's where I responded to what he wrote. You may notice that I have not still given an opinion on is it permissible or impermissible. Where the discussion is specifically about alimas being doctors the brother is relating to us his incident with the Russian girl. This is much appreciated but I think out of context. You may beg to disagree.

The next portion is the bit that everyone is finding it had to swallow, from our apa soupy, to sister Fatima Noor to Mowlwisaab. In fact mowli saab you have added a personal flare to it. First of all let me tell you that all of you have taken me out of context and it is not fair for you to that. Lets have a look at the proofs: brother London786 wrote


Also how about marriage etc??? Many of these ladies will delay marriage and unfortunetely the longer marriage is delayed in the west the more problems there are. Either zina will happen or the lady will find it difficult to get married as any lady past the age of 25 the chances of getting married get slimmer by the day. I responded


You talk about prolonging nikah will/may lead to zina. I find that very offensive and disrespectful to our alimas (my wife is an alima), it is almost an innundo that we can't trust them. Your comment about age +25 and difficulty in marriage is a fair point. If the husbands allow their wives to study and work then why should we have a problem.

My whole argument here revolved about trusting our alimas and having confidence in the vigourous training and tarbiyya that they went through that inshallah in the face of adversaries and fitnas they will be able to stand up to the challenge , I wasn't mentioning anything about not marrying at an early age. The correlation the brother makes here with prolonging the marriage WILL lead to zina is a very binary view. I think that is quite insulting to our scholarship, our tarbiyya and our sisters in general. No where do I mention that the sister SHOULD procrastinate the marriage or that it is not good practice to marry early. In fact if you carry on reading what i've written (and that's why I say i'm being quoted out of context) I write


Your comment about age +25 and difficulty in marriage is a fair point. If the husbands allow their wives to study and work then why should we have a problem.
Here i'm talking about husband and wife, i.e. the sister is already married. Reference to my wife was only a passing comment. FYI brother mowli saheb, I married my wife when she was 19.

I hope that makes things a bit clear.

As for my view is it permissible for an alima to be a doctor. Then the answer is yes, providing that she and her parents have confidence in her tarbiyya. If she is married then provided that her husband does not have a problem with it. Providing that she is practicing and abides by the laws of the sharia to the best of her God given ability. I have yet to come across an unequivocal text with explicit connotations saying otherwise.

I hope people have understood my writings and I pray not to quote me out of context. Even the views above that i have expounded are not so simplistic and there are many points of usul al-fiqh and maqasid al-sharia that are work. It is not my nature to debate, if any of the ulama want to further carry on this discussion on an usuli level then feel free to converse with me through email. I thought i needed to respond because it was getting a bit personal. May Allah give us the tawfiq to love everyone despite our differences. And as the arabs say:
In lam yakun, fa bika yakun
wassalam
Mansur (PhD, Hadith studies)

p.s. my email address can be found here
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=25398944&postID=2282023612387514460

[UmHasan]

:jazak: for the clarification. It is much appreciated.

[Talib84]

If there is a need for female doctors, then you don’t need to be an alimah to be a Muslim female doctor. A practising Muslimah, who is able to work and who is aware of the Islamic rulings related to her profession (permissible medication, treatment, etc) could do a good enough job. Save the aalimahs for deeni work.

Assalamu Alaikum

I dont understand this point. If someone once to become a doctor but also once to study deen ( and thereafter earns the title of aalima after graduating) whats the problem? And if a practising Muslimah could do a good enough job as a doctor, then why cant an aalimah do it? Does the shariah apply differently to an aalimah and a practising Muslimah? Either both can do it or both can't.

I am not getting into the issue of permisibility or impermisibility, but I just dont understand what you were trying to say.

[UmHasan]

Please would you read the rest of the posts after the one you have quoted, especially post 72 and and then the posts of sister ummitaalib who explained why things are different for an aalimah compared to any other Muslimah. The answers have all been given there :insh:

I have always maintained here and on other threads that my personal opinion is that as long she does not compromise her adherence to the shariah and its requirements, she doesn’t end up neglecting her duties as a wife and mother, and she doesn’t unnecessarily delay marriage then there is nothing stopping a muslimah becoming a doctor or an astronaut- as long as she does it within the limits of what shariah allows. How that is defined is a long discussion that depends on many issues.

I believe this is not too different to what Mawlana Mansy wrote too and once he clarified his points, that became clear.



As for my view is it permissible for an alima to be a doctor. Then the answer is yes, providing that she and her parents have confidence in her tarbiyya. If she is married then provided that her husband does not have a problem with it. Providing that she is practicing and abides by the laws of the sharia to the best of her God given ability. I have yet to come across an unequivocal text with explicit connotations saying otherwise.


Additionally, I also expressed that as there are so few competent, intelligent, pious and mature aalimahs in the community who fulfil the duty of educating the Muslim women in Islam, for such a aalimah to direct her time and energies to becoming a doctor it would probably be at the expense of her service to deen. (This was my personal view based own my own experience and observations and I am not talking about permissible/impermissible)

Khayr, I have said more than enough on this topic and it is boring the living daylights out of me now, :-) so I hope you will not mind if I excuse myself from this thread now. :jazak:

[ummitaalib]

I have always maintained here and on other threads that my personal opinion is that as long she does not compromise her adherence to the shariah and its requirements, she doesn’t end up neglecting her duties as a wife and mother, and she doesn’t unnecessarily delay marriage then there is nothing stopping a muslimah becoming a doctor or an astronaut- as long as she does it within the limits of what shariah allows.
:jazak:

Well put Aapa, i for one agree.....muslimah astronaut! hmmm, question of mehram when travelling thread!! Sorry just being cheeky

[UmHasan]

Well put Aapa, i for one agree.....muslimah astronaut! hmmm, question of mehram when travelling thread!! Sorry just being cheeky

hmmm..... are you sure it's over 48 miles? =)

[layman]

Please keep all joking strictly in the gender-specific areas. Also the topic must be strictly stuck to - not going off into space. Also note that the official view of our madhab is not '48 miles' the search function should be strictly used to find out matters such as this.

This discussion is now over. Thread closed.

P.S. The above comments shold strictly not be taken seriously

P.P.S. I'd love to really say the second paragraph. Oh the power. Mods are just so lucky.

[laystur]

To young sisters opting this path, may Allah swt bless your way and guide you correctly.

Ameen.