Time of Asr prayer

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Here is a hadeeth from Tirmidhee and Abu dawud

In Kitab Salah

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Gabriel (peace_be_upon_him) led me in prayer at the House (i.e. the Ka'bah). He prayed the noon prayer with me when the sun had passed the meridian to the extent of the thong of a sandal; he prayed the afternoon prayer with me when the shadow of everything was as long as itself; he prayed the sunset prayer with me when one who is fasting breaks the fast; he prayed the night prayer with me when the twilight had ended; and he prayed the dawn prayer with me when food and drink become forbidden to one who is keeping the fast.

On the following day he prayed the noon prayer with me when his shadow was as long as himself; he prayed the afternoon prayer with me when his shadow was twice as long as himself; he prayed the sunset prayer at the time when one who is fasting breaks the fast; he prayed the night prayer with me when about the third of the night had passed; and he prayed the dawn prayer with me when there was a fair amount of light.

Then turning to me he said: Muhammad, this is the time observed by the prophets before you, and the time is anywhere between two times.

and there is a hadeeth in Muslim in this meaning

So this hadeeth is clear, and majority of Fuqahas acted on it. Even some Ahnaf like Qadi Thanaullah Panipati in his ma la Budah minh and many others.

And this hadeeth came to tell time of prayer. so the daleel is from Ibaratu Nass, meaning clearly said in nass, also dalalahtu Nass, meaning the purpose of nass was to tell time of Salah.

Do Ahnaaf have a daleel clearly telling when times of Asr starts ?

May Allah guide us all

[Hamood]

salam aleykum

Here is a hadeeth from Tirmidhee and Abu dawud

In Kitab Salah

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Gabriel (peace_be_upon_him) led me in prayer at the House (i.e. the Ka'bah). He prayed the noon prayer with me when the sun had passed the meridian to the extent of the thong of a sandal; he prayed the afternoon prayer with me when the shadow of everything was as long as itself; he prayed the sunset prayer with me when one who is fasting breaks the fast; he prayed the night prayer with me when the twilight had ended; and he prayed the dawn prayer with me when food and drink become forbidden to one who is keeping the fast.

On the following day he prayed the noon prayer with me when his shadow was as long as himself; he prayed the afternoon prayer with me when his shadow was twice as long as himself; he prayed the sunset prayer at the time when one who is fasting breaks the fast; he prayed the night prayer with me when about the third of the night had passed; and he prayed the dawn prayer with me when there was a fair amount of light.

Then turning to me he said: Muhammad, this is the time observed by the prophets before you, and the time is anywhere between two times.

and there is a hadeeth in Muslim in this meaning

So this hadeeth is clear, and majority of Fuqahas acted on it. Even some Ahnaf like Qadi Thanaullah Panipati in his ma la Budah minh and many others.

And this hadeeth came to tell time of prayer. so the daleel is from Ibaratu Nass, meaning clearly said in nass, also dalalahtu Nass, meaning the purpose of nass was to tell time of Salah.

Do Ahnaaf have a daleel clearly telling when times of Asr starts ?

May Allah guide us all


Hazrat Abu Huraira (radhiallahu anhu) narrates: "When the length of your shadow (from the sun) is equal to your height then perform the zuhr salaah. When the length of your shadow becomes twice your height, perform the asr salaah. Perform the maghrib salaah when the sun has set. Perform the esha salaah before one-third (1/3) of the night passes. And perform the fajr salaah while it is still dark." [Muwatta Imaam Maalik vol.1, pg.8, Hadith 9]

Also, there is a difference of opinion in Hanafi fuqaha regarding the asr time....see: http://albalagh.net/qa/asr_time.shtml

Whats your point? There is something called 'ikhtilaf', I am sure your salafi scholars disagree on certain matters. So stop wasting time in trying to prove wrong the hanafis. We've been around for 1400 years now, so everything in our madhab is backed up by evidence, authentic ahadith.

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Is the saying of a Sahabi opposing saying of Prophet saw Hujjah ?

Specially when Jibrail came to teach Prophet saw times of prayer.

Secondly, Salafee scholars do differ, but when one thinks the hadeeth is saheeh and the other not, difference in understanding hadeeth, or making tatbeeq between different hadeeth.

As for ikhtilaf when there is a clear marfu' narration of the Prophet saw in Muslim, Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi, then I do not think this kind of ikhtilaf against Nass is permissible.

A mujtahid might not know these ahadeeth and his students might know it, but at the end action is on saying having strongest daleel

And here I do not see anythong stronger than this marfu narration that came to tell times and limits of prayer.

May Allah give us tawfeeq to accept saheeh hadeeth

[haqq]

THE TIME OF ASR SALAAT AND
THE EVIDENCE OF THE HANAFI MATHHAB

THE DISPUTE
Like many issues of the Deen, the time of Asr Salaat was resolved and settled fourteen centuries ago during the Khairul Quroon. The Four Math- habs (Hanafi, Maaliki, Shaafi and Hambali) have their Qur?aanic and Hadith proofs for their respective views and rulings on the vari- ous laws of the Shariah. The followers of the Four Math- habs which constitute the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama?ah have been practising the teachings and tenets of Islam in accordance with the expositions of their respective Math- habs throughout the passage of Islam?s centuries in ha r- mony, understanding and accepting the validity of the standpoints of all Math-habs. In recent times there has developed a sect of misguided people called Salafis who have resolved to make unneces- sary conflict and controversy a salient feature of their de- viated math- hab. Teachings of the Math- habs which have been settled and accepted fourteen centuries ago have been unnecessarily and baselessly criticized and branded as being in conflict with the Qur?aan and Sunnah. Although the Salafis criticize all Four Math-habs in gen- eral, they have displayed considerable rancour and gorged out much invective for the Hanafi Math-hab in particular. Their main allegation against the Ahnaaf is that Imaam Abu Hanifah (rahmatullah alayh) and the Fuqaha of the Hanafi Math- hab issued rulings in conflict with the Hadith, which ofcourse, has to be dismissed with contempt. The charge is utterly baseless.


ASR TIME
The present discussion is on the question of Asr time. When does it begin? According to the Ahnaaf, Asr time commences at Mithlain, i.e. when the length of the shadow of an object has reached twice the le ngth of the object plus Fay-e-Zawaal. If, for example, the length of the shadow of a meter stick at Zawaal is 10 centimetres, then Asr time will begin when the length of the shadow is two metres and 10 centimetres.

According to the deviant Salafis, Asr time commences at one Mithl, i.e. when the shadow equals one length of the object plus Fay-e-Zawaal. This is also the viewpoint of the other Math- habs.

The purpose of our booklet is not to refute the validity of the viewpoints of the other Math-habs. There is no dispute with them. However, the criticism and baseless charges directed against the Hanafi Math- hab by the Salafis have necessitated a response to show that the Hanafi view is based on the Hadith in the same way as the other Math- habs claim that their views are structured on the Hadith. Since the Salafis and other Ghair Muqallideen of their ilk, in obedience to desire and opinion, have embarked on spreading confusion in the Ummah on masaail which have been resolved many centuries ago, the need for this re- sponse and refutation developed. Insha?Allah, this discus- sion will debunk their baseless claim that the Hanafi Fu- qaha have employed logic in conflict with the Sunnah to formulate the rules of the Shariah. It is there allegation that the Ahnaaf resort to opinion and interpretation inspite of the existence of clear Hadith proofs to the contrary.

At the very outset we should say that on the issue of the beginning of Asr time, the Salafis have no Hadith which categorically asserts the Mithl view. They have resorted to interpretation of the Ahaadith in order to arrive at their opinion of Mithl. They simply lack even a single Hadith which clearly states the Mithl view. Thus, their charge of logic directed to the Ahnaaf rebounds on themselves and their opinion. It will, therefore, be correct for us to say that the Salafis have no Hadith evidence for their Mithl opinion. Let us now examine the basis and proofs of the two viewpoints on this question.

Click Here (http://books.themajlis.net/book/view/319) to read the book.

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Hanafi claim : Salafis have no Hadith which categorically asserts the Mithl view. They have resorted to interpretation of the Ahaadith in order to arrive at their opinion of Mithl. They simply lack even a single Hadith which clearly states the Mithl view.

Answer : In the hadeeth of Abu Dawood you have these words : "he prayed the afternoon prayer with me when the shadow of everything was as long as itself "

The words of hadeeth tell that the Jibrail prayed at Mithl view

What a great mistake for this hanafi

Allah's help is sought

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Another big mistake of this Hanafee : This particular Hadith which is their strongest daleel(proof) is of the Hasan cate gory. Ahaadith of this category are valid as basis by the Ahnaaf. But it devolves on Salafis who are so vociferous in their demand for Saheeh and Sareeh Ahaadith to produce such narrations. Presentation of narrations of a lesser category than Saheeh is improper for them.

Ahle hadeeth accept Hasan hadeeth as maqbool hadeeth, where did they say we do only act on saheeh hadeeth

Can he bring any quote for his claim or just puit some doubts

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Second claim : Although this Hadith mentions that on the first of the two occasions Asr was performed at one Mithl, it is am- biguous in view of the contradiction of Zuhr having been performed also at one Mithl on the second occasion. In terms of the principle: ?When the proofs are contradictory, they are discarded.?, this Hadith should not be ten- dered as proof for Asr time. The contradiction has con- strained the operation of this principle.

What a batil taweel for his madhab

The Sunnah is ambigous, so we do not act it, while it is clear for all other Fuqahas who acted on it.

Rejecting Sunnah with Ray

One can esaily understand that second day it was just before mithl, but some people are zahiri to reject saheeh ahadeeth

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Also this man did not recive tawfeeq to put all hadeeth of muslim, because putting it in his full will cancel his batil taweel

Insha Allah I will put it in full and show to people the batil taweel of this hanafee man

May Allah protec us from hadeeth rejection

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Saheeh Muslim, Kitab Masajid,

From ibn Amr : The Prophet saw said the time of Thuhr is from Zawal of sun and the shadow of man was to his length until Asr gets present, and time of Asr until sun gets yellow and time of Maghrib is until Shafaq disappears…

So one can see that beginning of Asr is not told, clearly meaning that his beginning is just after end of thuhr prayer, and the saying "the shadow of man was to his length " was to show limit.

In narration of Abu Mussa you have that a man asked the Prophet saw about time of prayers, and Prophet saw said to him to pray two days with him, and on second day Abu Mussa said the “ The Prophet saw delayed Thuhr until it was close to time of Asr yesterday”

So if we take all ahadeeth to explain each other, because the Sunnah makes its own tafseer, so one can see tatbeeq between hadeeth of Abu Dawood and these two of Muslim, to mean the Prophet saw prayed Thur just before shadow gets equivalent to mithl, and prayed Asr just after Mithl, and the time between them was close, as Jibrail’s aim was to teach limit.

Abu Mussa clearly told that time was qareeb between them

It is well known that rawi do riwayat bil Ma’na and if we take all ahadeeth into account the Sunnah will be clear to us, as it was to all fuqahah who did not find any contradictions in the Sunnah in this matter.

Also the aim of Jibrail saw was to teach the Prophet saw.

And there are a lot of ahadeeth in Muslim telling Jibrail came to teach the Prophet saw times of prayer, so if one cannot understand these ahadeeth, and there is contradiction and ambiguity, then what is the meaning of Jibrail telling the Prophet saw, if the information has no value for the Ummah.

It would mean that Jibrail’s telling had no purpose, since people are saying these reports are contradictory and ambiguous

La Hawla wa la Quwatt ila Billah

It is clear that Ahle hadeeth do not reject Hadeeth calling them ambiguous, rather they make their meaning clear.

Ahnnaf also say about hadeeth of Muslim that Prophet saw made masah of Imamah, that this narration has to be explained by the other of muslim that the Prophet saw made masah of head and Imamah.

So they say the riwayat is with Ma’na, and the second hadeeth explained the first.

They do not act on the thahir of first hadeeth that prophet saw made masah of Imamah.

But for Asr prayer, instead of explaining hadeeth between each others, they will find contradictions in order to make saying of Prophet saw saqit and useless.

Wali'azu Billah

Also all fuqahah did not find any contradiction or ambiguity on these ahadeeth.

It is very strange that sometimes Ahnaaf are Zahiri to reject some hadeeth, finding contradictions in zahir

And with Masah of Imamah they do not take Zahir of hadeeth rather say to explain one hadeeth with other.


Seriously, if Munkir hadeeth want to reject hadeeth, they will find here enough courses and can show that all sunnah is contradictory, unreliable, you cann reject any hadeeth you want.

May Allah guide us not to find Sunnah contradictory and make us love it and our Imam in ikhtilaf of Fuqahas

[Hamood]

Bro Abu Taymiah , most of what you say does not make sense to me. Not the meaning but the english..the grammar part is hard to make out.

I don't know what you are trying to pull here but all this ambiguity in your posts is driving me nuts. You have to sit down and try to drive all this ill-feelings towards the ahnaf out of your heart. Seriously. I can gaurantee you the ulema on this forum can disprove each and every invalid illogical point you make against the sunnis but they simply don't have the time.

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Shaykh Ubaydullah Rehmani Mubarakpuree said in his Mira’atul Mafateeh sharh Mishkat Al Masabeeh : “ Sayd Ahmad Dahlan said Imam Ahmad made ruju’ ( changed his position that salatul Asr begins ate two mithl) from Khazanatul Mufteen and Fatawa Thahiriyah, and they are trustworthy, and Sahib Durul Mukhtar gave fatwa according to that ( that it is single mithl of shadow). Ibn Abideen made a refutation that it is againt thahir saying, and there is not fatwa on this saying ( of single), and for me rajih is what Sahib Durul Mukhtar chose” Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee said : “ Daleel gives tarjeeh to their saying ( Dur Al Mukhtar and Dahlan)”

Shaykh Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee said in his kokab Ad Durree sharh Tirmidhee about Hadeeth of Imamah of Jibrail : “ Then he prayed Asr when things where according to shadow, meaning similar to shadow, and the meaning is close to ( similar of shadow ( Qareeban)), and if there was thimatu Fay, the case is clear, and whenever there is, then the meaning “he prayed Asr” is he started and its beginning (shuru’) and not its end ( firaghuhu) and completion ( Itmam).”

As for the second day Shaykh Gangohee said ; “ Then he prayed Thuhr on time of asr of yesterday, meaning close to it ( qareeban) not on its time ( la ‘Aynihi). Our shaykh ( probably Nanotwi) may Allah make his uluw and Majd long, said the verb Sala ( he prayed) is used as mots of verbs for beginning of action and end. So he prayed is in one of cases for finishing ( firaghah) and in second time it is for beginning ( shuru’). The meaning will be the Prophet saw finished ( prayer) the second day.( at mithl)”

He said at the end of the discussion on this topic after answering to hadeeth of Muwatta and hadeeth of jews and christians : “The Tahqeeq that necessitates Muhaqiq, is that Saheeh from Madhab is to act on narration of Mithl in Thuhr and after that time of Asr starts. And with this, the better is to complete prayer of Thur before end of Mithl with shadow of Zawal and he enters prayer of Asr after two Mithl, so there is no ikhtilaf in his prayer.”


Shaykh Abul Hassan Al Kabeer Sindhee said in his Hashyah on Nassai about the hadeeth of Jabir : “ He prayed Thuhr ( on Mithl) meaning he finished ( faragha) it, and for Asr on first day, it is he started, and this because of Waqt of prayer in two times necessitates to consider Shuru’ ( beginning) in first place, and completed ( fargha) in second place. This is the meaning of Jibrail in the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah : “ The prayer is between your prayer of yesterday and your prayer of today”

Taking meaning both prayer have ishtirak of time, this cancels the aim of definition of time of Jibrail’s imamat, because Imamat of first time is to tell beginning of first time, and second Imamat end of time, Khattabee and Nawawee said the similar to this”

Mulla Ali Qaree also explained praying Thur on second day at mithl to mean close to it.

Allamah Luknawee said : “ The justice is that Ahadeeth of Mithl are clear and saheeh and akhbar of two mithl are not clear wether Asr starts at two mithl, and hadeeth of two mithl are taken from Tawjih and Istinbat, and deducted things cannot precede over clear” ( Ta’liq Al Mumajad)

And when you read Urf Shazee and I'la Sunnan, you can clearly see they oppose Shaykh Ahmad Gangohee's view, and argue that the Hadeeth of Jibril does not suit Jumhoor.

Sahib I'la saying that What Nawawi and other do is taweel of hadeeth, meaning he prayed at mithl meaning close to mithl, and it is against Thahir.

While Shaykh Rasheed Ahmad said that this explanation is not hidden, meaning evident, and even grammar show this, not even a taweel

It is shoking to see that sometimes Ahnaaf are zahiri, sometimes they themselves make far taweel.

Look even ibn Humam agreed on meaning of Hadeeth of Jibrail, but he tried to show it was abrogated by hadeeth of Bukharee that tells to make Thuhr late, and said Jibrail prayed in Makkah, and order of ibrad was in madinah.

But scholars like ibn Hajar and other show that the Prophet told the man who asked times of prayer, and led him to days in prayer, and in hadeeth of Jabir in tirmidhee, Nassai you clearly have same words as hadeeth of Jibril, first day prayaing Asr at mithl, and second day thuhr at Mithl.

So the claim of naskh is wrong, rather one should try to make jam' and tatbeeq isntead of naskh abroigation, because it is wahee and we have to be carefull in abrogating Wahee.

Also some Ahnaaf give tarjih to less clear hadeeth, but at leats they do not distort meaning of majority of scholars clear hadeeth, calling it ambigous and many other things.

Personnally I get much more angry when I see people making Sunnah invalid, as Ahnaaf can be when they see people showing some weakness of their fiqh.

But at least, we try to remain scientific, and we do not attribute to opposing party thinsg they do not say like action is only on saheeh hadeeth, not hassan.

And we are not only ones in criticising fatawa of Ahnaaf opposing clear hadeeth and majority of scholars, Shafii scholars, Maliki also do the same in their books

Ibn Hajar said Abu Haneefah opposed Jumhoor, even his students left him, also Ibn Abdil barr talked of weakness and aloneless of Abu Haneefah in all Islamic world.

But problem of deobandi is that they cannot stand any scientific debate on any issues, they lose their temper when they see laymen reading daleel of other Fuqahah, they think that they will lose membert of their group.

Look at harshness of their words, for them showing strond daleel of others is and weakness of hanafi fiqh is like attacking Quran and Sunnah.


Ibnul Qayem said Muqalid judged the Sunnah instead of judging with the Sunnah.

And ask people who want to refute, also to refute their own great scholar Gangohee Sahib.

[faqir]

Time of ‘Asr in the Hanafï Madhhab


by GF Haddad

The Prophet said: “Your life in comparison to the lifetime of past nations is like the period between the time of the mid-afternoon prayer (‘asr) and sunset. Your example and the example of the Jews and Christians is that of a man who employed laborers and said to them: ‘Who will work for me until mid-day for one qiràt (a unit of meas*ure, part of a dinar) each?’ The Jews worked until mid-day for one qiràt each. Then the man said: ‘Who will work for me from mid-day until the ‘asr prayer for one qiràt each?’ The Christians worked from mid-day until the ‘asr prayer for one qiràt each. Then the man said: ‘Who will work for me from the ‘asr prayer until the maghrib prayer for two qiràt each?’ And that, in truth, is all of you. Truly you have double the wages. The Jews and the Chris*tians became angry and said: ‘We did more labor but took less wages.’ But Allàh said: ‘Have I wronged you in any of your rights?’ They replied no. Then He said: ‘This is My Blessing which I give to whom I wish.’”[1]

Imàm Abu Hanïfa deduced from the phrase “We did more labor” that the time of mid-day to ‘asr must always be longer than that between ‘asr and maghrib. This is confirmed by some reports:

· The Prophet hastened to pray zuhr and delayed praying ‘asr.[2]

· The Prophet said: “May Allàh have mercy on someone who prays four rak‘as before ‘asr.[3]

· ‘Alï delayed praying ‘asr until shortly before the sun changed and rep*rimanded the mu’adhdhin who was hurrying him with the words: “He is trying to teach us the Sunna!”[4]

· Ibràhïm al-Nakha‘ï said: “Those that came before you used to has*ten more than you to pray zuhr and delay more than you in praying ‘asr.”[5] Al-Tahànawï said: “Those that came before you” are the Companions.

· Ibn Mas‘ud delayed praying ‘asr.[6]

Sufyàn al-Thawrï and Abu Hanïfa therefore lengthened the time between Zuhr and ‘Asr by (1)considering that the time for ‘Asr began when the shadow of an object reached two lengths and (2) preferably delaying the latter prayer for as long as the sun did not begin to redden–upto one hour before Maghrib. An added benefit of this position is the increase of permitted time for nawàfil, as they are not permitted after ‘Asr.That the earlier time (one-length shadow) is both the beginning of ‘Asr time and the preferred time is the fatwa of the companions of the Imàm – Muham*mad ibn al-Hasan and Abu Yusuf, in line with the other Three Schools, on the basis of other sound evidence to that ef*fect.

The summation of the Hanafï position is as follows:

The top Scholars of the late Hanafï school have deemed the Imàm’s po*sition to be more sound, as expressed by Kamàl ibn al-Humàm in Fath al-Qadïr, Ibn Nujaym (very vociferously) in his monumental Bahr al-Rà’iq (and in a separate treatise he wrote just on the topic), as well as Ibn ‘Àbidïn himself in his Radd al-Muhtàr (al-Hàshiya), where he objected to al-Haskafï quoting that the fatwa is on the position of the Two Companions. Ibn ‘Àbidïn’s student, al-Maydànï, approvingly quotes his teacher’s position in his Lubàb fi Sharh al-Kitàb. Among the late Hanafï hadïth Masters – besides Ibn al-Humàm – who chose the Imàm’s position was Imàm Badr al-Dïn al-‘Aynï and Mullà ‘Alï al-Qàrï, as well as most of the great Hanafï hadith commentators and Fuqahà’ of the Indo-Pakistani sub-continent, except Imàm al-Lacknawï. As Ibn ‘Àbidïn mentions in his Hàshiya and Imàm Ashraf‘ Alï al-Tahànawï in his brilliant Imdàd al-Fatàwà, the princi*ple (asl) is to clear one’s obligations with certainty. Given the difference of the Imàm in this issue [whose proofs are well discussed in I‘là’ al-Sunan, Awjaz al-Masàlik, Badhl al-Majhud, and other works, as well as Fath al-Qadïr], it is religiously more precautionary to follow Imàm Abu Hanïfa’s position. Of course, our teachers–both from Syria and those from Pakistan (‘Allàma Muftï Mahmud Ashraf ‘Usmànï) – say that if it means missing a congregation or causing fitna, then it would be superior to act on the posi*tion on the Two Companions. [7]

[1]Narrated from Ibn ‘Umar by al-Bukhàrï.

[2]Narrated from Umm Salama by al-Tirmidhï and Ahmad with sound chains as stated in I‘là’ al-Sunan ( 2:42 #490).

[3]Narrated from Ibn ‘Umar by al-Tirmidhï who graded it hasan gharïb.

[4]Narrated from Zyàd ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmàn al-Nakha‘ï by al-Hàkim (1:192) who said it is sahïh, and al-Dhahabï concurred as stated in I‘là’ al-Sunan (2:43-44 #493) but Zyàd is actually unknown. Al-Dàraqutnï in his Sunan(1:251) names him Zyàd ibn ‘Abd Allàh al-Nakha‘ï–another unknown. And Allàh knows best.

[5]Narrated by ‘Abd al-Razzàq with a sound chain according to al-Tahànawï in I‘là’ al-Sunan ( 2:44 #494).

[6]Narrated from ‘Abd al-Rahmàn ibn Yazïd by ‘Abd al-Razzàq (1:551 #2089) and Ibn Abï Shayba (#22701) with sound chains according to I‘là’ al-Sunan (2:45 #496).

[7]Shaykh Faràz Rabbànï, private communication.