Are Ash'ari following Jahmiyah ?

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

I found in Kawakib Ad Durari of Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee that after saying of Imam Tirmidhee that Ahle Ilm have Iman in these narrations, he said that this is madhab of Mutaqadimeen and mutakahreen chose way of Jahmiyah so these ayah are no more from Mutashabihah.

So does Abul Hassan and hios freind agree that he is on Jahmi's way like his shaykh Gangohee said or is Gangohee Sahib mistaken ?

[Muawiyah]

I'm not knowledgable of whether he did say this or not, or of what exactly he meant, but generally speaking Imam ul Hind Shah Waliullahullah rahimahullah did not like taweel, so most people in his silsilah do not do taweel either. Hadhrat Gangohi especially, was strongly against mantiq and kalam as was Shah Fadhl ur Rahman Ganjmuradabi, Nawab Sideeq Hasan Khan's shaykh in the Naqshbandi silsilah, Rahimahumullah. Hadhrat Gangohi even had banned the teaching of mantiq in the Dar ul `Uloom for some time.

[iqadeer]

Brother Muawiyah,

I wonder if you also know as to why Shaykh Gangohi was against mantiq and kalam? Is it because it gives rise to religious disputations among Muslims that we see so much nowadays? Or, is it that intellect should not be employed on sensitive matters such as talking about or trying to understand Allah's attributes?

[Abul Hasan]

salam aleykum

I found in Kawakib Ad Durari of Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee that after saying of Imam Tirmidhee that Ahle Ilm have Iman in these narrations, he said that this is madhab of Mutaqadimeen and mutakahreen chose way of Jahmiyah so these ayah are no more from Mutashabihah.

So does Abul Hassan and hios freind agree that he is on Jahmi's way like his shaykh Gangohee said or is Gangohee Sahib mistaken ?


Since I see my name being mentioned as a rhetorical question adressed to me - I don't know what you are trying to imply! What do you mean "his Shaykh Gangohee"? Since when did I ever say that he was my Shaykh? And, what do you mean "Jahmi's way"?! You quoted nothing and made assumptions. It would be good if you can quote everything he said in all passages connected to narrations on the Sifat of Allah - in his Kawakib.

If you believe Ta'wil is the way of Jahmiyya - then please answer this post below and show if Hadrat Ibn Abbas (ra) was on the "Jahmi Way" or not?! Then say if it applies to al-Hakim, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Hajar et al or not... With reference to the Ta'wil of al-Saaq.

Tell me if Qadi Iyad was a Jahmi or not?

Read this carefully:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4030&page=6&pp=10

[athari]

Abul Hasan, since this forum censors and deletes the opposing views while some members on this forum like muslim786/faqir can call or imply to other members that they are misguided and call names, I have posted some replies to your claims at http://www.*************** forum which can be accessed by http://s3.invisionfree.com/sunnipress

You should also check the scanned pages against Asharis and Maturidis on that forum. Including what Ahmad Sirhindi known as Mujaddid Alf Thani and Anwar Shah Kashimiri said about Asharism and Maturidism.


As for your repeated claim that anyone who does Tawil should be labelled a Jahmi then your reasoning is faulty. It needs to be corrected. Check the posts here:
http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=89

http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=89

http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=37

I ask you one final question, since you are a scholar defending Ahl al-Kalaam, on the forum here:

The Jahmiyya and The Mutazila and others from Ahl al-Kalaam chose Tawil to deny the attributes of Allah. Ahl al-Hadith wal Athar chose the way of Salaf us Salih and proved attributes for Allah and denied Tawil of Jahmi - Mutazili type

My question: Do you, Abul Hasan, accept that Allah has attributes ? If so, then how many attributes and how did you conclude the number of attributes and how did you prove that Allah has attributes ?

[Abul Hasan]

Abul Hasan, since this forum censors and deletes the opposing views while some members on this forum like muslim786/faqir can call or imply to other members that they are misguided and call names, I have posted some replies to your claims at http://www.*************** forum which can be accessed by http://s3.invisionfree.com/sunnipress

You should also check the scanned pages against Asharis and Maturidis on that forum. Including what Ahmad Sirhindi known as Mujaddid Alf Thani and Anwar Shah Kashimiri said about Asharism and Maturidism.


As for your repeated claim that anyone who does Tawil should be labelled a Jahmi then your reasoning is faulty. It needs to be corrected. Check the posts here:
http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=89

http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=89

http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=37

I ask you one final question, since you are a scholar defending Ahl al-Kalaam, on the forum here:

The Jahmiyya and The Mutazila and others from Ahl al-Kalaam chose Tawil to deny the attributes of Allah. Ahl al-Hadith wal Athar chose the way of Salaf us Salih and proved attributes for Allah and denied Tawil of Jahmi - Mutazili type

My question: Do you, Abul Hasan, accept that Allah has attributes ? If so, then how many attributes and how did you conclude the number of attributes and how did you prove that Allah has attributes ?

So, i see you still have the audcaity to ask me questions when you have so far failed to defend yourself on the issues you raised here earlier this month! Have you forgotten your Istiqrar aqeeda and Ibn Qutayba?! You asked me to call him a Mushabbih - so why didn't you answer Imam al-Bayhaqi calling him a Karrami?!

What about all the other points I raised O you who claims to be a "Hanafi"?! Why hide your ID? Tell us who you are and what is your posting ID on ahwa.org - just as I asked Abu Taymiyah this before! You think that we wouldn't have our posts censored and get banned from ahwa.org - if there is something the admin objects to?! I have had my previous posts at ahwa.org censored then i got banned without warning! So who are you O majhul to come here and ask us to do this and that?!

Your colleagues like: "abu-Jafer" and "Zulfiqaar Ali" have clearly lied against me - and I have challenged them both to a Mubahala and I will show them the Thabat of Shaykh al-Fadani also that I have - so why don't they accept they lied against me? Your colleague: AR Qadri also spread distortions from Amr Abdal Mun'im (see my reply under the Ta'wil of the Sahaba thread)...

I haven't got time and energy to play games. You have had over 10,000 typed words from me to you in the past - so you can play your slanderous and abusive games at ahwa.org and the so called "Sunnipress".

Fact is: You and your ilk don't really know the Way of the Salaf and nor are you "Ahlul-Hadith wal Athar" in totality. Produce for us your Asanid to the Qur'an and at least the Sihah Sitta if you claim to be Ahlul-Hadith - otherwise you stand accused and suspected as mere claimers...


You people have such awful and abusive manners and writing styles - so you can continue to play on at your own forums while we present our findings here Insha'allah.

PS - those links you gave don't lead to nothing as I am not registered to read the slurs, slanders and twaddle that exist in it - alhamdulillah. I advise no Sunni from here to sign upto to those types of forums if your levels of Ilm are not up to standard to refute their half-baked claims.

[athari]

Abu Hasan, that was nice way to escape a challenge. Diversion, I should say.

What has Zulfiqar or Abu Jafer have to do with this thread ? I don't know them, neither I care about them. I am not responsible for everyone posting on ahya . org ?!

But the truth is you can't face the truth. I asked you a simple question, since you are the scholar of this forum defending Ahl al-Kalaam
The Jahmiyya and The Mutazila and others from Ahl al-Kalaam chose Tawil to deny the attributes of Allah. Ahl al-Hadith wal Athar chose the way of Salaf us Salih and proved attributes for Allah and denied Tawil of Jahmi - Mutazili type

My question: Do you, Abul Hasan, accept that Allah has attributes ? If so, then how many attributes and how did you conclude the number of attributes and how did you prove that Allah has attributes ?

Instead you replied with an outburst and slandered me and even made a FALSE CLAIM like "Fact is: You and your ilk don't really know the Way of the Salaf and nor are you "Ahlul-Hadith wal Athar" in totality. Produce for us your Asanid to the Qur'an and at least the Sihah Sitta if you claim to be Ahlul-Hadith - otherwise you stand accused and suspected as mere claimers..."


Who am I? why don't you enlighten us by first telling WHO YOU ARE? where you studied and who are your teachers. and what is your real fullname.
Then i assure you I will tell you who am I ?

Really you didn't check sunnipress forum ? and your advice to others to not register there makes me smile. Can't face the Truth ?

Well, I expect more slurs, and insults to be posted against Ahl al-Hadith wa Athar and against me since we have seen and shown you how BIASED one can be.

So let us see if Abul Hasan can answer to the posts which refute him or will he play his diversion tactics and bring up 1000 lines of unrelated issues and then claim, 'you didn't reply' !!

[Abul Hasan]

Abu Hasan, that was nice way to escape a challenge. Diversion, I should say.

What has Zulfiqar or Abu Jafer have to do with this thread ? I don't know them, neither I care about them. I am not responsible for everyone posting on ahya . org ?!

But the truth is you can't face the truth. I asked you a simple question, since you are the scholar of this forum defending Ahl al-Kalaam
The Jahmiyya and The Mutazila and others from Ahl al-Kalaam chose Tawil to deny the attributes of Allah. Ahl al-Hadith wal Athar chose the way of Salaf us Salih and proved attributes for Allah and denied Tawil of Jahmi - Mutazili type

My question: Do you, Abul Hasan, accept that Allah has attributes ? If so, then how many attributes and how did you conclude the number of attributes and how did you prove that Allah has attributes ?

Instead you replied with an outburst and slandered me and even made a FALSE CLAIM like "Fact is: You and your ilk don't really know the Way of the Salaf and nor are you "Ahlul-Hadith wal Athar" in totality. Produce for us your Asanid to the Qur'an and at least the Sihah Sitta if you claim to be Ahlul-Hadith - otherwise you stand accused and suspected as mere claimers..."


Who am I? why don't you enlighten us by first telling WHO YOU ARE? where you studied and who are your teachers. and what is your real fullname.
Then i assure you I will tell you who am I ?

Really you didn't check sunnipress forum ? and your advice to others to not register there makes me smile. Can't face the Truth ?

Well, I expect more slurs, and insults to be posted against Ahl al-Hadith wa Athar and against me since we have seen and shown you how BIASED one can be.

So let us see if Abul Hasan can answer to the posts which refute him or will he play his diversion tactics and bring up 1000 lines of unrelated issues and then claim, 'you didn't reply' !!


I have nothing to hide - and you know very well that i asked you to make telephonic contact with me. Come to the "Brothers Section" - then i will give you my email and we can arrange a time and place to meet. Fact is - I have typed up over 10,000 words for your benefit and all you have done is left the forum for a few weeks and evaded all of my earlier posts and now come on here to demand more answers from me!

Like I said: I haven't got time and energy to waste.

[Ibn_Abi_Yala]

What makes you afraid to contact me? Personally?