Imam ibn Jahbal al-Kilabi and his refutation of Ibn Taymiyya

[Abul Hasan]

:salam:

One of the Imams of the Ash'ari school who refuted Ibn Taymiyya in his time was the Shafi'i Mufti: Ibn Jahbal al-Kilabi. Dr GF Haddad has been preparing a full translation and annotation of Imam Ibn Jahbal's radd on Ibn Taymiyya in English for some time now. I will mention what he has said to date on this issue and post the full arabic edition with notes at the end as an attachment (by another contemporary). Dr Haddad said:

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Ibn Jahbal on Ibn Taymiyya


As-Salamu `alaykum:

The publication of the full English translation of this work with introduction, notes, and indexes is forthcoming insha Allah.

"The reason for this small work is that recently someone produced something in which he asserted direction (jiha) for Allâh Most High. He deceived those who have no firm foothold in learning, no mastery in knowledge, no share of understanding, and no ability to see with the light of wisdom. I decided to speak about the doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jamâ`a and then show the corrupt nature of what he said.... Then I produced proofs from the doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna and what pertains thereunto." - Ibn Jahbal.

OUTLINE OF QADI IBN JAHBAL AL-KILABI'S (670-733) REFUTATION OF IBN TAYMIYYA'S (661-728) ATTRIBUTION OF DIRECTION TO THE DEITY IN HIS FATWA HAMAWIYYA (698)

(Al-Raddu `ala Man Qâla bil-Jiha)

Translator's Introduction:


The Controversy Around Ibn Taymiyya's Orthodoxy
The Sunni Stand Against Anthropomorphism


I. Author's Introduction

The Hashwiyya or Vulgar Anthropomorphists
Mâlik and al-Shâfi`î's Understanding of Tawhîd
The Ash`arîs are Near the Salaf Unlike the Hashwiyya
The Doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna
The Requisites of Transcendence (Wazâ'if al-Taqdîs)


II. Refutation of Ibn Taymiyya's Claims

The Fallacy of His "Proofs from the Qur'ân"
and the Hashwiyya's Self-Contradictions
The Fallacy of His "Proofs From the Sunna"
His Peculiar Understanding of "with," "in," "above," and "on"
His Understanding of the Heaven to Mean "the Height"
His Rhetoric Against the Mutakallimûn
The Absurdity of His Literalism
His Calumnies Against the Sunnî Theologians
His Attribution of Unbelief and Heresy to the Ulema
His Unreliable Manner of Quoting the Salaf
Imâm al-Ghazzâli's Ethics of Tawhîd
(i) Upholding Divine transcendence (al-taqdîs)
(ii) Belief (al-îmân)
(iii) Confirmation (al-tasdîq)
(iv) Admission of Incapacity (al-i`tirâfu bil-`ajz)
(v) Keeping Silent (al-sukût)
(vi) Refraining from Paraphrasing (al-imsâk `an al-tasarruf)
(vii) Stopping Cogitation (kaff al-bâtin)
(viii) Holding firmly that the Prophet - upon him blessings
and peace - Knows (i`tiqâd `ilm al-Nabî Sallallahu `alayhi wa-Sallam)
Kalâm Dialectic in the Qur'ân and the Rejection of Imitation
Warnings of the Great Sûfî Shaykhs against Literalism
Leave Qur'anic Exegesis to Its Experts
Qur'anic Proofs in Negation of Direction
Qur'ân and Sunna Yield no Evidence to Anthropomorphists


IBN JAHBAL AL-KILABI THE MUFTI OF THE MUSLIMS


Ahmad ibn Muhyî al-Dîn Yahyâ ibn Tâj al-Dîn Ismâ`îl ibn Tâhir ibn Nasr Allâh ibn Jahbal, al-Qâdî Shihâb al-Dîn or Nâsir al-Dîn Abû al-`Abbâs al-Kilâbî al-Halabî al-Dimashqî al-Shâfi`î al-Ash`arî, known as Ibn Jahbal (670-733), is described in al-Dhahabî's Siyar A`lâm al-Nubalâ' as "the erudite scholar, the guiding leader of Muslims" and in his `Ibar fî Khabari Man `Abar as "The mufti of the Muslims."1 He took fiqh from Abû al-Faraj Sharaf al-Dîn al-Maqdisî, al-Sadr ibn al-Wakîl, Ibn al-Naqîb, Muhammad ibn `Umar Sadr al-Dîn ibn al-Murahhal al-`Uthmânî, and hadîth from Abû al-Hasan ibn al-Bukhârî, `Umar ibn `Abd al-Mun`im ibn al-Qawwâs, Ahmad ibn Hibat Allâh ibn `Asâkir, and others. He narrated in Makka, Madîna, al-Qudus, and Damascus He taught in the Salâhiyya School in al-Qudus then moved to Damascus where he assumed the headmastership of Dâr al-Hadîth at al-Zâhiriyya. When the headmaster of the Bâdirâ'iyya School died he replaced him while al-Dhahabî took over Dâr al-Hadîth. He died in Damascus at age sixty-three and was buried in Maqbarat al-Sûfiyya. His older brother, the headmaster of the Atâbakiyya School, vice-governor of Damascus and qâdî of Tripoli, Muhyî al-Dîn Abû al-Fidâ Ismâ`îl ibn Yahyâ (666-740) survived him seven years and was buried next to him.

Al-Dhahabî said of Ibn Jahbal: "There was great goodness and pious devotion in him; he possessed excellent traits, great merits, and perspicuity in the ramifications of knowledge." Ibn Kathîr named him "the Shaykh, the admirable Imâm, the Mufti of the Muslims" and said: "He was among the authoritative fuqahâ'. He took nothing from the Bâdira'iyya nor the Zâhiriyya which he did not already know." Ibn al-Kutbî said: "He was a scrupulously Godwary `âlim. When he fell sick he spent a great deal in charity, including his clothes." After relating the above, Ibn Hajar said: "Our Shaykh al-Burhân al-Shâmî narrated to us what he heard from him." Ibn Jahbal also taught the historian and hadîth Master `Alam al-Dîn al-Birzâlî and the lexicographer Majd al-Dîn al-Fayrûzâbâdî who read Sahîh Muslim to him in Damascus in three days.2 Allâh have mercy on him and benefit us and all Muslims with his knowledge. Amîn.


NOTES

1 Al-Dhahabî, al-`Ibar (4:96-97).
2 Cf. al-Qâsimî's Qawâ`id al-Tahdîth (p. 262).


Hajj Gibril
GF Haddad

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Let us look forward to the English edition soon Insha'Allah.

Wassalam

Abul Hasan

[athari]

Abul Hasan, let us see if you one of those who pick and choose and selective quote when it suits your purpose and when refuted and exposed you come up with lame excuses like ' you don't have energy and time to waste' or 'contact me thru phone' or 'jahil majhul' whereas you yourself are unknown "majhul"

Anyway, the Imam Qurtubi who you quoted from a translation done by Aisha Bewley of Murabitun (murabitun Asharis recently attacked GF Haddad murshed Nazim Haqqani and was also attacked by GF Haddad) has to say about Jiha.

Do you accept what Imam Qurtubi said about Jiha.

OR

Will show the old traits: selective quote when it suits your personal agenda and run when it opposes your creed ?

here is what Imam al-Qurtubi said about Jiha [don't quote the distortion of GF Haddad on this issue....]:

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&bm=&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=7&nAya=54&taf=KORTOBY&tashkeel=0



ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ


هَذِهِ مَسْأَلَة الِاسْتِوَاء ; وَلِلْعُلَمَاءِ فِيهَا كَلَام وَإِجْرَاء . وَقَدْ بَيَّنَّا أَقْوَال الْعُلَمَاء فِيهَا فِي ( الْكِتَاب الْأَسْنَى فِي شَرْح أَسْمَاء اللَّه الْحُسْنَى وَصِفَاته الْعُلَى ) وَذَكَرْنَا فِيهَا هُنَاكَ أَرْبَعَة عَشَر قَوْلًا . وَالْأَكْثَر مِنْ الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَالْمُتَأَخِّرِينَ أَنَّهُ إِذَا وَجَبَ تَنْزِيه الْبَارِي سُبْحَانه عَنْ الْجِهَة وَالتَّحَيُّز فَمِنْ ضَرُورَة ذَلِكَ وَلَوَاحِقِهِ اللَّازِمَة عَلَيْهِ عِنْد عَامَّة الْعُلَمَاء الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَقَادَتهمْ مِنْ الْمُتَأَخِّرِينَ تَنْزِيهه تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى عَنْ الْجِهَة , فَلَيْسَ بِجِهَةِ فَوْق عِنْدهمْ ; لِأَنَّهُ يَلْزَم مِنْ ذَلِكَ عِنْدهمْ مَتَى اِخْتَصَّ بِجِهَةٍ أَنْ يَكُون فِي مَكَان أَوْ حَيِّز , وَيَلْزَم عَلَى الْمَكَان وَالْحَيِّز الْحَرَكَة وَالسُّكُون لِلْمُتَحَيِّزِ , وَالتَّغَيُّر وَالْحُدُوث . هَذَا قَوْل الْمُتَكَلِّمِينَ .

وَقَدْ كَانَ السَّلَف الْأَوَّل رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُمْ لَا يَقُولُونَ بِنَفْيِ الْجِهَة وَلَا يَنْطِقُونَ بِذَلِكَ , بَلْ نَطَقُوا هُمْ وَالْكَافَّة بِإِثْبَاتِهَا لِلَّهِ تَعَالَى كَمَا نَطَقَ كِتَابه وَأَخْبَرَتْ رُسُله . وَلَمْ يُنْكِر أَحَد مِنْ السَّلَف الصَّالِح أَنَّهُ اِسْتَوَى عَلَى عَرْشه حَقِيقَة . وَخُصَّ الْعَرْش بِذَلِكَ لِأَنَّهُ أَعْظَم مَخْلُوقَاته , وَإِنَّمَا جَهِلُوا كَيْفِيَّة الِاسْتِوَاء فَإِنَّهُ لَا تُعْلَم حَقِيقَته . قَالَ مَالِك رَحِمَهُ اللَّه : الِاسْتِوَاء مَعْلُوم - يَعْنِي فِي اللُّغَة - وَالْكَيْفَ مَجْهُول , وَالسُّؤَال عَنْ هَذَا بِدْعَة . وَكَذَا قَالَتْ أُمّ سَلَمَة رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهَا . وَهَذَا الْقَدْر كَافٍ , وَمَنْ أَرَادَ زِيَادَة عَلَيْهِ فَلْيَقِفْ عَلَيْهِ فِي مَوْضِعه مِنْ كُتُب الْعُلَمَاء . وَالِاسْتِوَاء فِي كَلَام الْعَرَب هُوَ الْعُلُوّ وَالِاسْتِقْرَار . قَالَ الْجَوْهَرِيّ : وَاسْتَوَى مِنْ اِعْوِجَاج , وَاسْتَوَى عَلَى ظَهْر دَابَّته ; أَيْ اِسْتَقَرَّ . وَاسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء أَيْ قَصَدَ . وَاسْتَوَى أَيْ اِسْتَوْلَى وَظَهَرَ . قَالَ : قَدْ اِسْتَوَى بِشْرٌ عَلَى الْعِرَاق مِنْ غَيْرِ سَيْفٍ وَدَمٍ مِهْرَاق وَاسْتَوَى الرَّجُل أَيْ اِنْتَهَى شَبَابه . وَاسْتَوَى الشَّيْء إِذَا اِعْتَدَلَ . وَحَكَى أَبُو عُمَر بْن عَبْد الْبَرّ عَنْ أَبِي عُبَيْدَة فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى : " الرَّحْمَن عَلَى الْعَرْش اِسْتَوَى " [ طَه : 5 ] قَالَ : عَلَا . وَقَالَ الشَّاعِر : فَأَوْرَدْتهمْ مَاء بِفَيْفَاء قَفْرَة وَقَدْ حَلَّقَ النَّجْم الْيَمَانِيّ فَاسْتَوَى أَيْ عَلَا وَارْتَفَعَ . قُلْت : فَعُلُوّ اللَّه تَعَالَى وَارْتِفَاعه عِبَارَة عَنْ عُلُوّ مَجْده وَصِفَاته وَمَلَكُوته . أَيْ لَيْسَ فَوْقه فِيمَا يَجِب لَهُ مِنْ مَعَانِي الْجَلَال أَحَد , وَلَا مَعَهُ مَنْ يَكُون الْعُلُوّ مُشْتَرَكًا بَيْنه وَبَيْنه ; لَكِنَّهُ الْعَلِيّ بِالْإِطْلَاقِ سُبْحَانه . " عَلَى الْعَرْش " لَفْظ مُشْتَرَك يُطْلَق عَلَى أَكْثَر مِنْ وَاحِد . قَالَ الْجَوْهَرِيّ وَغَيْره : الْعَرْش سَرِير الْمُلْك . وَفِي التَّنْزِيل " نَكِّرُوا لَهَا عَرْشَهَا " [ النَّمْل : 41 ] , " وَرَفَعَ أَبَوَيْهِ عَلَى الْعَرْش " [ يُوسُف : 100 ] . وَالْعَرْش : سَقْف الْبَيْت . وَعَرْش الْقَدَم : مَا نَتَأَ فِي ظَهْرِهَا وَفِيهِ الْأَصَابِع . وَعَرْش السِّمَاك : أَرْبَعَة كَوَاكِب صِغَار أَسْفَل مِنْ الْعُوَاء , يُقَال : إِنَّهَا عَجُز الْأَسَد . وَعَرَّشَ الْبِئْر : طَيَّهَا بِالْخَشَبِ , بَعْد أَنْ يُطْوَى أَسْفَلهَا بِالْحِجَارَةِ قَدْر قَامَة ; فَذَلِكَ الْخَشَب هُوَ الْعَرْش , وَالْجَمْع عُرُوش . وَالْعَرْش اِسْم لِمَكَّة . وَالْعَرْش الْمُلْك وَالسُّلْطَان . يُقَال : ثُلَّ عَرْش فُلَان إِذَا ذَهَبَ مُلْكه وَسُلْطَانه وَعِزّه . قَالَ زُهَيْر : تَدَارَكْتُمَا عَبْسًا وَقَدْ ثُلَّ عَرْشُهَا وَذُبْيَان إِذْ ذَلَّتْ بِأَقْدَامِهَا النَّعْلُ وَقَدْ يُؤَوَّل الْعَرْش فِي الْآيَة بِمَعْنَى الْمُلْك , أَيْ مَا اِسْتَوَى الْمُلْك إِلَّا لَهُ جَلَّ وَعَزَّ . وَهُوَ قَوْل حَسَن وَفِيهِ نَظَر , وَقَدْ بَيَّنَّاهُ فِي جُمْلَة الْأَقْوَال فِي كِتَابِنَا . وَالْحَمْد لِلَّهِ .


Two important points coming from Imam al-Qurtubi:

1. Imam Qurtubi said: "And the Salaf of the very first times - may Allaah be pleased with them all - never used to negate direction (al-jihah) for Allaah and nor did they used to express this (negation). Rather, they, and all of the others, used to speak with its affirmation for Allaah, the Most High just as His Book has spoken about it and just as His Messengers informed of it. And not a single one of the Salaf denied that his ascending (istawaa) the Throne was real and true (haqeeqah) (as opposed to metaphorical, majaaz). And Allaah specified the Throne with istawaa because that is the greatest of all His creation. However they assumed ignorance only of the exact nature (kaifiyyah) of istiwaa, for the true nature of that is not known.

2. And Imam Qurtubi also said: "Istiwa according to Arabic language is ISTIQRAR AND ULUWW"

3. The view of Ahl Kalaam (Mutakalimeen = people of speculative theology) is according to Al-Qurtubi what Abul Hasan and his friends are trying to propagate.

4. Abul Hasan, before you reply to me on this make sure you read all the 14 sayings mentioned in the other book of al-Qurtubi and make sure you understand the arabic text. Some have even said, your arabic comprehension skills need some work.

[Abul Hasan]

Abul Hasan, let us see if you one of those who pick and choose and selective quote when it suits your purpose and when refuted and exposed you come up with lame excuses like ' you don't have energy and time to waste' or 'contact me thru phone' or 'jahil majhûl' whereas you yourself are unknown "majhûl"

Anyway, the Imam Qurtubi who you quoted from a translation done by Aisha Bewley of Murabitun (murabitun Asharis recently attacked GF Haddad murshed Nazim Haqqani and was also attacked by GF Haddad) has to say about Jiha.

Do you accept what Imam Qurtubi said about Jiha.

You will be exposed in the 20 page radd to you and your ilk that I have just put together in a few short hours after you posted here! See the attachment O readers and judge for yourselves what this majhûl is on. Indeed, he is the majhûl - for to date he has hidden his name and whereabouts, were as I am known personally here to some readers, indeed some of my students are also regular readers here. I have been teaching Shari’a topics for some years now - and will continue to do so here in London to those whom i consider are keen and capable via the traditional Ijaza system - alhamdulillah.

He is such a half-truth conveyer – that he also fails to tell the reader that Dr Haddad has also replied to the claims of the Murabitun writer. This is a personal thing between their organisations, and has no bearing to me or the topic at hand!

Indeed, the topic was about what Imam Ibn Jahbal compiled in radd to Ibn Taymiyya, but this majhûl decided to digress onto other issues as well! If he wanted to discuss his claims regarding Imam al-Qurtubi – he could have raised it calmly in another thread! Subhanallah! They are Masters of Distortion and Digression.




OR

Will show the old traits: selective quote when it suits your personal agenda and run when it opposes your creed ?

here is what Imam al-Qurtubi said about Jiha [don't quote the distortion of GF Haddad on this issue....]:

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&bm=&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=7&nAya=54&taf=KORTOBY&tashkeel=0



ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ


هَذِهِ مَسْأَلَة الِاسْتِوَاء ; وَلِلْعُلَمَاءِ فِيهَا كَلَام وَإِجْرَاء . وَقَدْ بَيَّنَّا أَقْوَال الْعُلَمَاء فِيهَا فِي ( الْكِتَاب الْأَسْنَى فِي شَرْح أَسْمَاء اللَّه الْحُسْنَى وَصِفَاته الْعُلَى ) وَذَكَرْنَا فِيهَا هُنَاكَ أَرْبَعَة عَشَر قَوْلًا . وَالْأَكْثَر مِنْ الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَالْمُتَأَخِّرِينَ أَنَّهُ إِذَا وَجَبَ تَنْزِيه الْبَارِي سُبْحَانه عَنْ الْجِهَة وَالتَّحَيُّز فَمِنْ ضَرُورَة ذَلِكَ وَلَوَاحِقِهِ اللَّازِمَة عَلَيْهِ عِنْد عَامَّة الْعُلَمَاء الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَقَادَتهمْ مِنْ الْمُتَأَخِّرِينَ تَنْزِيهه تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى عَنْ الْجِهَة , فَلَيْسَ بِجِهَةِ فَوْق عِنْدهمْ ; لِأَنَّهُ يَلْزَم مِنْ ذَلِكَ عِنْدهمْ مَتَى اِخْتَصَّ بِجِهَةٍ أَنْ يَكُون فِي مَكَان أَوْ حَيِّز , وَيَلْزَم عَلَى الْمَكَان وَالْحَيِّز الْحَرَكَة وَالسُّكُون لِلْمُتَحَيِّزِ , وَالتَّغَيُّر وَالْحُدُوث . هَذَا قَوْل الْمُتَكَلِّمِينَ .

وَقَدْ كَانَ السَّلَف الْأَوَّل رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُمْ لَا يَقُولُونَ بِنَفْيِ الْجِهَة وَلَا يَنْطِقُونَ بِذَلِكَ , بَلْ نَطَقُوا هُمْ وَالْكَافَّة بِإِثْبَاتِهَا لِلَّهِ تَعَالَى كَمَا نَطَقَ كِتَابه وَأَخْبَرَتْ رُسُله . وَلَمْ يُنْكِر أَحَد مِنْ السَّلَف الصَّالِح أَنَّهُ اِسْتَوَى عَلَى عَرْشه حَقِيقَة . وَخُصَّ الْعَرْش بِذَلِكَ لِأَنَّهُ أَعْظَم مَخْلُوقَاته , وَإِنَّمَا جَهِلُوا كَيْفِيَّة الِاسْتِوَاء فَإِنَّهُ لَا تُعْلَم حَقِيقَته . قَالَ مَالِك رَحِمَهُ اللَّه : الِاسْتِوَاء مَعْلُوم - يَعْنِي فِي اللُّغَة - وَالْكَيْفَ مَجْهُول , وَالسُّؤَال عَنْ هَذَا بِدْعَة . وَكَذَا قَالَتْ أُمّ سَلَمَة رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهَا . وَهَذَا الْقَدْر كَافٍ , وَمَنْ أَرَادَ زِيَادَة عَلَيْهِ فَلْيَقِفْ عَلَيْهِ فِي مَوْضِعه مِنْ كُتُب الْعُلَمَاء . وَالِاسْتِوَاء فِي كَلَام الْعَرَب هُوَ الْعُلُوّ وَالِاسْتِقْرَار . قَالَ الْجَوْهَرِيّ : وَاسْتَوَى مِنْ اِعْوِجَاج , وَاسْتَوَى عَلَى ظَهْر دَابَّته ; أَيْ اِسْتَقَرَّ . وَاسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء أَيْ قَصَدَ . وَاسْتَوَى أَيْ اِسْتَوْلَى وَظَهَرَ . قَالَ : قَدْ اِسْتَوَى بِشْرٌ عَلَى الْعِرَاق مِنْ غَيْرِ سَيْفٍ وَدَمٍ مِهْرَاق وَاسْتَوَى الرَّجُل أَيْ اِنْتَهَى شَبَابه . وَاسْتَوَى الشَّيْء إِذَا اِعْتَدَلَ . وَحَكَى أَبُو عُمَر بْن عَبْد الْبَرّ عَنْ أَبِي عُبَيْدَة فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى : " الرَّحْمَن عَلَى الْعَرْش اِسْتَوَى " [ طَه : 5 ] قَالَ : عَلَا . وَقَالَ الشَّاعِر : فَأَوْرَدْتهمْ مَاء بِفَيْفَاء قَفْرَة وَقَدْ حَلَّقَ النَّجْم الْيَمَانِيّ فَاسْتَوَى أَيْ عَلَا وَارْتَفَعَ . قُلْت : فَعُلُوّ اللَّه تَعَالَى وَارْتِفَاعه عِبَارَة عَنْ عُلُوّ مَجْده وَصِفَاته وَمَلَكُوته . أَيْ لَيْسَ فَوْقه فِيمَا يَجِب لَهُ مِنْ مَعَانِي الْجَلَال أَحَد , وَلَا مَعَهُ مَنْ يَكُون الْعُلُوّ مُشْتَرَكًا بَيْنه وَبَيْنه ; لَكِنَّهُ الْعَلِيّ بِالْإِطْلَاقِ سُبْحَانه . " عَلَى الْعَرْش " لَفْظ مُشْتَرَك يُطْلَق عَلَى أَكْثَر مِنْ وَاحِد . قَالَ الْجَوْهَرِيّ وَغَيْره : الْعَرْش سَرِير الْمُلْك . وَفِي التَّنْزِيل " نَكِّرُوا لَهَا عَرْشَهَا " [ النَّمْل : 41 ] , " وَرَفَعَ أَبَوَيْهِ عَلَى الْعَرْش " [ يُوسُف : 100 ] . وَالْعَرْش : سَقْف الْبَيْت . وَعَرْش الْقَدَم : مَا نَتَأَ فِي ظَهْرِهَا وَفِيهِ الْأَصَابِع . وَعَرْش السِّمَاك : أَرْبَعَة كَوَاكِب صِغَار أَسْفَل مِنْ الْعُوَاء , يُقَال : إِنَّهَا عَجُز الْأَسَد . وَعَرَّشَ الْبِئْر : طَيَّهَا بِالْخَشَبِ , بَعْد أَنْ يُطْوَى أَسْفَلهَا بِالْحِجَارَةِ قَدْر قَامَة ; فَذَلِكَ الْخَشَب هُوَ الْعَرْش , وَالْجَمْع عُرُوش . وَالْعَرْش اِسْم لِمَكَّة . وَالْعَرْش الْمُلْك وَالسُّلْطَان . يُقَال : ثُلَّ عَرْش فُلَان إِذَا ذَهَبَ مُلْكه وَسُلْطَانه وَعِزّه . قَالَ زُهَيْر : تَدَارَكْتُمَا عَبْسًا وَقَدْ ثُلَّ عَرْشُهَا وَذُبْيَان إِذْ ذَلَّتْ بِأَقْدَامِهَا النَّعْلُ وَقَدْ يُؤَوَّل الْعَرْش فِي الْآيَة بِمَعْنَى الْمُلْك , أَيْ مَا اِسْتَوَى الْمُلْك إِلَّا لَهُ جَلَّ وَعَزَّ . وَهُوَ قَوْل حَسَن وَفِيهِ نَظَر , وَقَدْ بَيَّنَّاهُ فِي جُمْلَة الْأَقْوَال فِي كِتَابِنَا . وَالْحَمْد لِلَّهِ .



No we won't quote or reply like in the distorted fashion you and your folk have been already exposed for - like with the issue of Ibn Qutayba Ya Miskin! Insha'Allah!


I see the Miskin is still trying to tell me who not to quote and trying to get me to declare this and that to satisfy his nafs! Will he ever comply with all the posts i have put out to date in radd to him - consisting of to date more than 15,000 words?! Or is it that we will see him scarper from here like he did for some 3 weeks when he was exposed over his humiliation over the Ibn Qutayba issue - then he came back and planted more questions and demands?! :$




Two important points coming from Imam al-Qurtubi:

1. Imam Qurtubi said: "And the Salaf of the very first times - may Allaah be pleased with them all - never used to negate direction (al-jihah) for Allaah and nor did they used to express this (negation). Rather, they, and all of the others, used to speak with its affirmation for Allaah, the Most High just as His Book has spoken about it and just as His Messengers informed of it. And not a single one of the Salaf denied that his ascending (istawaa) the Throne was real and true (haqeeqah) (as opposed to metaphorical, majaaz). And Allaah specified the Throne with istawaa because that is the greatest of all His creation. However they assumed ignorance only of the exact nature (kaifiyyah) of istiwaa, for the true nature of that is not known.

2. And Imam Qurtubi also said: "Istiwa according to Arabic language is ISTIQRAR AND ULUWW"

3. The view of Ahl Kalaam (Mutakalimeen = people of speculative theology) is according to Al-Qurtubi what Abul Hasan and his friends are trying to propagate.

4. Abul Hasan, before you reply to me on this make sure you read all the 14 sayings mentioned in the other book of al-Qurtubi and make sure you understand the arabic text. Some have even said, your arabic comprehension skills need some work.


Let us see where he plagiarised the above point (no. 1)! He took this from HERE (http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD05&articleID=AQD050003&pfriend=) - but didn't have the honesty to give credit to his fellow pseudo-Salafi publicists! Now he reminds me of his "authority" he quoted from a few days back: Salim al-Hilali (another well known distorter, thief and plagiarist according to some of these same pseudo-Athariyya!)

Imam al-Qurtubi did not affirm personally that he believed that Allah’s Istiwa means Istiqrar or Uluw in a literal sense - rather he only mentioned that in Arabic Istiwa has several meanings, and Istiqrar and Uluw are some of these meanings. This doesn't mean that he believed that the only 2 definite and accepted meanings for Allah's Istiwa is just Istiqrar and Uluw in the Haqiqi and Zahiri sense - like these pseudo-Salafi claimants are propagating these days! The attachment will show the true state of Imam al-Qurtubi - Insha'allah!

Once again, the majhûl "Athari" tried to put up a smoke screen by forgetting to mention what the Kibar Ulama like: Abu Hanifa and Malik had said in negation of Istiqrar as well as Jiha! This is enough proof that he is a pseudo-Salafi! Proof is in the PDF file (see link below)
Indeed, he is majhûl and it is he and his folk who lack comprehension of Arabic, even if they were born Arabs and lived to see 80 years - they have still made major blunders and have been refuted time and time again. And, who are these "some" who think that my Arabic comprehension needs work on?! Rather, virtually all of the Western based pseudo-Salafiyya are Ajami's who have learned a smattering of Arabic! Who from Ahwa posts rudud on us as an Arab - with the exception of al-Ghuzayli of Morocco - under the Ash'ari/Maturidi bashing thread?!

Let us also summarise what the reality of this majhûl “Athari” has been to date here:


“Athari” exposed for his exaggerations and half truths regarding the issue of al-Istiqrar an Ibn Qutayba:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6114&page=1&pp=10

I said in that article above to him:


Once again the claimants to “Salafiyya/Athariyya” come on this forum and barrage it with their famous divertory tactics, by failing to answer what was posted to date on this issue of Istiqrar! Subhanallah. I am not going to waste my time on things unconnected to the topic at hand if I can help it, unless there is an urgent need to do so with relevancy. I have already typed up over 5000 words in less than 24 hours for this majhûl “Athari” and his Way in the past, and I am sure he may just continue to mock us and digress further. Wallahu a’lam.

One only need's to read the impudent and arrogant style of his rhetorically linked outbursts that he thinks are questions in need of sincere answers! He came on with pre-conceived bias, and is now trying to dictate to me what to do, and trying to incite me to fall for the traps that he thinks he has set for us in the few posts he dropped here in a pejorative and diminutive way!


Recently I said the following under this link:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6841&page=2

But, as per usual this individual who takes his “knowledge” from dubious people like: Salim al-Hilali and the one accused (and found guilty by some) of spreading the Bid’a of anthropomorphism: Abu Ya’la al-Hanbali – fled from replying and digressed onto this issue of Jiha (direction) for Allah, and what he thinks Imam al-Qurtubi may have believed from his one sided look at a few lines! As per usual, these claimants to the Salaf have failed to mention the other places in the same Tafsir of al-Qurtubi what he had said about Istiwa, Jiha, Uluw al-Makan etc.

This impudent majhûl said in mockery of me:


As for filthy tongues accusing that Imam Khallal considered Imam Tirmidhi to be Jahmi then exposed of the OBVIOUS and OUTRAGEOUS LIE then someone did crawl back to the hole.

Seems like you people have very short memory. You accuse and when exposed "crawl back to the hole" by saying 'oh oh now we understand this was not the case' , I ask, what is the use by slandering and lying then after getting refuted, saying 'we did mistake' !!

To which I said:



Ya Majhul - have you forgotten how we exposed your gross distortion regarding Ibn Qutayba?! Who are you trying to fool here?! Either admit to your distortion or I will continue to expose your "Athari" Masters soon.

You claimed to be a Hanafi - but tell me why did you not admit to Imam Abu Hanifa's rejection of Istiqrar?!

If any one wants to see how al-Albani cut up the words of Qadi Iyad - give me the nod. Ya Miskin - your conveyer of distortions: AR Qadri spread the baseless claim from Amr Abdal Mun'im that the Ta'wil of the Saaq as in Mustadrak al-Hakim is da'eef - and where is his admittance to the fact that the likes of Imam al-Dhahabi declared that narration to be Sahih and the Tahsin of ibn Hajar to add?!

Seems like even the people at Sunni-port have exposed the claims of this Qadri and his colleague: Abu Taymiyah - who seems to be none other than Abu Alqama - posting the same distortions at Ahwa!

Why have you remained silent Ya Majhul on Ibn Qutaybah being a Mu'awwil also?!

Let us not also forget Ya Majhul - how your friends in miscomprehension and lying: "abu-Jafer" - lied againt me and what I said about the Thabat of al-Fadani, and not to forget also: The die-hard Kadhhab - the one who said that Qadiyani's are better than Barelwi's: Zulfiqaar Ali - and his spreading of the lie that I apparently was in contact with GF Haddad with regard to the claim of talks about exchanging Ijazat!

Let us also not forget - Why haven't you been able to re-produce the so called emails you sent to Dr GF Haddad? Bring them on - and we'll see how you stand in your claims. Come now, talk about your "Mahdi" from "Athariyya" who got what he deserved in Nov. 1979/Muharram 1400 AH.

You have been approached by me politely to contact me and meet me - but you have shown yourself to be nothing but one who who sheepishly hides cowardly behind an unknown screen name.

I see you are still asking me to do this and that - go and admit your own faults before you try to take the mick out of me Ya Majhul! You people are too proud, haughty, slanderers, lack Ilm, sincerity as well as having in the main no Sanad to the Principal Books of Ilm.


Keep reading and you may learn something.

Let not the reader forget to read this expose on this majhûl “Athari” and His school of “thought”:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6261&page=3&pp=10

We are still awaiting his formal response to this and his claims of emails sent to DR GF Haddad! Cowards can run but they will Insha’allah be exposed when the need arises.

Please see the attached 20 page PDF file in further clarification of the distortions of the pseudo-Salafiyya – in another thread here:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63522#post63522


Wassalam

Abul Hasan

[faqir]

:salam:

MashaAllah Sidi Abul Hasan, thank you for compiling the article.

These people will do anything to prove their deviant Creed - even if it means openly tampering and twisting the words of the Ulema from the past. May Allah guide the likes of this pseudo-Athari. Ameen.

Wasalam.

[athari]

Abul Hasan, I don't know by what standards you qualify to teach sharia. since when have the teachers of sharia started to use vile language against those who they disagree calling them names like "Maskin". Looks like you can't control your temper when you get exposed and refuted. like the example when you accused Khalaal then he said Hafidh Tirmidhi was Jahmi. This is your scholarship. So congratulations for teaching these types of things and then accuse those who expose you of "Maskin" and what not.
And then you disappear and run away when confronted.
Anyway, I reply to your distortion and half truths by:
I laugh at your outbursts and childish vile accusations. Especially when you use the words like "Maskin" and "Majhul" whereas your team of Majhul revilers (abusing and accusing us without any proof) are mashallah good students of a good teacher.

There is a website launched by unknown group (Barelwis or Salafis) which says that 3 brothers Karim Abdullah, Azeem etc.. who were students of knowledge are actually Hussain Sayf Ahmed and his brothers.

And it even has pics of Hussain Sayf Ahmed and his brothers coming out of mosque..

They have on their website POSTS from sunnah.org forum and they establish the style of Karim Abdullah and other Deobandi majhul authors and that it matches with Hussain Sayf Ahmed's and his brothers.

So may be you should spent time now on that since Allah has exposed the trouble makers.


As for Al-Qurtubi then he said Salaf which means Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifah. No care is given to what people from Ahl al-Kalaam allege be it anyone.


I really don't care if Abdullah al-Habashi al-Hariri al-Ashari comes up and says to me that what al-Qurtubi says is Kufr and blah blah.. So, if you want to convince us, then bring up scholars who are accepted the ones like Dhahabi etc.
Your another distortion and half truth was exposed about Ibn Hajar Asqalani. see the thread: http://*********************************index.php?showtopic=76

Interesting how you twist the words of scholar and how you selective quote to suit YOUR OWN PERSONAL AGENDA whereas people Like Mahmood Saeed Mamduh and others seem to follow a path different then yours. Ever checked what Mahmood saeed Mamduh wrote about Tafwid al-Mana and Tafwid al-Kayf ?

Abul Hasan, please no need for name-calling. we are all grown up here. no need for you to address me as "Maskin". I thought you were a scholar ?

[faqir]

Poor pseudo-"athari" is whimpering pathetically. Someone please step up and pat him on the head.

[samrqandi]

assalaamu^alaikum

Alhamdulillah some of the issues that are dealt with here are good, i mean the statement made by al-athari:


As for Al-Qurtubi then he said Salaf which means Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifah. No care is given to what people from Ahl al-Kalaam allege be it anyone.

The question should be asked was al-qurtubi considered an ashari or not? and he takes from him, and al-athari answer why you dont take what abul hasan has said of what abu hanifa, malik said about negating istiqrar and jiha etc. Also why does your statement suggest that reference is being made to abu hanifa and malik? where did you get that from? However what is confirmed from them is the opposite!

if you can provide a detailed critique of the evidence abul hasan presented on the views of abu hanifa and malik, also what i have asked i would be more then welcome to read your post otherwise your just ranting on and asking questions on top of questions! Since by the looks of it you have supposedly studied these issues in depthed and have the materials available, so i would like to see YOUR OWN RESEARCH ON IT!

Just to ask further, al-athari what are the standards to qualify to teach sharia, i would really like to know it, im talking about your standards? what texts must a person study? etc I mean what scholarship do the modern salafis have, a scholarship of confusion!

I have been reading your posts and they dont seem to be anything special its the same typical salafi think i.e. jahmee, etc the same words are re-iterated time and time again. I will leave it here!

If people want to base their beleifs on mistakes then so be it! And stick to the thread on ibn taymiya who was surely misguided in the tenets of faith!

barak allah feekum
wassalaamu alaikum

[tilmeedh]

A copy of this book, with a prettier font :):
http://bsd09.livedepot.net/IKfScK243966/J365UYLJ/qdwkGUqIgZpX9doUvF4qC6T2nxx3

[Sunni Muslim]

A copy of this book, with a prettier font :):
http://bsd09.livedepot.net/IKfScK243966/J365UYLJ/qdwkGUqIgZpX9doUvF4qC6T2nxx3


Link does not work.