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Braveheart2009
17-03-2011, 12:34 AM
Although the Quran mentions him was he a prophet or Musa brother or relative? And why is he referred to as the green one?

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 01:01 AM
Although the Quran mentions him was he a prophet or Musa brother or relative? And why is he referred to as the green one?

Salam Aleykum,

al-Khadir was a Prophet of Allah who was given knowledge by Allah and carries out orders of Allah, he was more knowledgeable than Musa PBUH because Musa PBUH told Bani Israel that he was the most knowledgeable Human so Allah wanted to teach him that he was not.
Musa PBUH then met him and he never knew him before this.
He's not alive also.

Salam Alekum,

ImamGhazzaali
17-03-2011, 01:44 AM
Although the Quran mentions him was he a prophet or Musa brother or relative? And why is he referred to as the green one?

Shaykh Salman Younas:
"Khidr, literally meaning "the green one", is an individual referred to extensively in surah al kahf of the Qur'an as a companion of Sayyidina Musa (Allah bless him and grant him peace) whom the latter sought out for his knowledge.

Although this individual mentioned in Surah al Kahf is not specified by name, hadith literature establishes him as none other than Khidr himself. The reason he was named "Khidr" was "because he sat in a bare dry land and then it began to quiver with green after him." (Bukhari)"

There is Ikhtilaaf if Khidr is a Prophet or a Wali of Allaah. AskImam states it as Wali, but Imam Nawawi considers him as a Prophet. Anyways, al-Ikhtilaaf Ummati Rahmah.

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 02:00 AM
The Majority is that he's a Prophet, a Wali can't kill little boys and sink ships because he thinks he knows the future, he's not infallible.

Al-Tha'alabi and Ibn Hajar and al-Nawawi and al-Shanqiti, al Fakhr al Razi, Abu Hayyan, Abu Bakr al Ambari, al-Qurtubi, al-Alusi... all said explicitly: "The saying of the Jumhour(VAST MAJORITY) is that he's a Prophet".

MujahidAbdullah
17-03-2011, 02:35 AM
He's not alive also.


Why do say this as a fact when Imam Nawawi and others beleived he is alive?

Rifai
17-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Sayyidina Khadir being alive is attested by numerous ´ulama and majority of Sufis.

AbuMuslimKhorasani
17-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Is it mentioned in Quran that Prophet Khidr (as) is alive? or Authentic Sunnah?


al-Ikhtilaaf Ummati Rahmah

Is this authentic statement? I heard Imam Suyuti (rah) said he couldn't find the sanad of this saying. How is 'Ikhtilaf' a Rahma?

ImamGhazzaali
17-03-2011, 02:15 PM
There is ikhtilaaf in this so people should calm down.

mercyofAllah
17-03-2011, 02:35 PM
Bismillahirrahmanirraheem
Is al-Khadir (AS) alive, or is he dead?

The event related to al-Khadir (AS) mentioned in the Qur’an has nothing to do with the question of his life or death after it. Therefore, no clear statement in this regard is present in the Qur'an, and Sunnah. Some reports suggest his being alive till now while others tell us otherwise. Thus, scholarly opinion has always been at variance in this matter. Those who hold that he is alive argue on the basis of the narrative from Sayyidna Anas (RA) carried by al-Hakim in his al-Mustadrak. It says, 'when the Holy Prophet (SAW) left this mortal world, there came a person in black and white beard. Tearing the crowd of people, he reached inside and started weeping. Then, turning to the noble Companions, he said the following words:

Indeed, in Allah there is endurance against all distress, and recompense of everything taken away, and He is the real caretaker for He alone survives after everyone is dead. So, return to Allah, turn to Him passionately and long for Him alone - because, deprived is he who has been deprived of the reward of enduring distress.

After having said these words, when the visitor departed, Sayyidna Abu Bakr (RA) and Sayyidna 'Ali (RA), said, 'he was al-Khadir (AS). This narrative has also been reported by Ibn al-Jazri in his al-Hisn al-Hasin where the compiler is particular about including nothing but what is authentic.

And in Sahib Muslim, it appears that Dajjal (Imposter) will reach a point close to Madinah when a man of Madinah will come out to confront him. He will be the best of men during that time, or among the better ones. Abu Ishaq said, 'this person will be al-Khadir (AS). (Qurtubi)

And Ibn Abi ad-Dunya has reported in Kitab-al-Hawatif with necessary chains of authority that Sayyidna 'Ali (RA) met al-Khadir (AS) who told him about a Du'a' which, if recited by anyone after every Salah, would bring for him great reward, forgiveness and mercy. That prayer is given below:

0 He whose hearing of one thing does not hamper His hearing of the other,
And 0 He who never errs in responding to (millions of? Requests simultaneously,
And 0 He who never becomes weary of the plaints made repeatedly by those who make them in prayers, let me, in Your mercy, have a cool taste of Your forgiveness and sweetness of Your pardon. (Qurtubi)

Then, within the same book, exactly the same event, the same prayer and the same incidence of meeting with al-Khadir has been reported from Sayyidna 'Umar (RA) as well. (Qurtubi)

Similar to this, there are countless events relating to al-Khadir (RA) that have been attributed to the community's men of Allah (awliya').

As for those who do not accept the likelihood of al-Khadir (RA) being alive, their major argument comes from the Hadith of Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar (RA) appearing in Sahih Muslim. He says, 'one night, the Holy Prophet led the 'Isha' prayer for us during the latter days of his blessed life. After having turned for salam, he rose and said these words:

Do you see this night of yours? And after a hundred years from this night, not one of those present over the land will be alive!

After having narrated this report, Sayyidna Ibn 'Umar (RA) said, 'people say different things about it. But, what the Holy Prophet meant to say was that this age will be over after hundred years.'

This narrative has been reported in Sahih Muslim also from Sayyidna Jabir ibn 'Abdullah, almost in the same words. But, after having quoted this report, Allamah al-Qurtubi said, 'it offers no conclusive argument for those who hold that the notion of al-Khadir (AS) being alive is false because, in this narrative, the words used for the entire progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) are general with a strong emphasis on the generality. Yet, it contains no decisive authority (nass) to prove that this generality covers the entire progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) necessarily. The reason is that Sayyidna (RA) too is among the progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) who has not died, nor was he killed. Therefore, as obvious, the letters: alif-lam in the words: 'ala al-ard: over the land) is the alif-lam of 'ahd,' (which points out to something familiar to the addressees), and means the land of Arabia. It does not include the whole land mass of the world out of which the Arabs had never heard even the names of the land of Gog and Magog (Ya'juj and Ma'jui), the far East and the Islands of the West.' This was the view of 'Allamah al-Qurtubi.

Similarly, some people have taken the issue of the Finality of Prophet-hood as contrary to the notion of al-Khadir (AS) being alive. The answer to this is also clear. It can be said that the way the 'life' of Sayyidna Isa (AS) is not contrary to the Finality of Prophet-hood, the 'life' of al-Khadir can also be quite similar.

Some people have raised a doubt about the 'life' of al-Khadir (AS). They say, if he were present during the blessed period of the Holy Prophet (SAW),it would have been mandatory for him to come to him and to serve the cause of Islam under him. Because, it was said in Hadith "Had Musa been alive [today], he would have had no choice but to follow me [for my coming has resulted in the abrogation of the Faith of Musa (AS).” But, not far out is the possibility that the 'life' and prophet-hood of al-Khadir (AS) may be different from that of the usual Shariah-bearing prophets. Since he is charged with the duty of carrying out certain affairs of creation (takwin) entrusted with him by Allah Ta'ala, He takes care of this appointed duty staying aloof from people at large. As for following the SharTah of the Last Prophet, it is not a far out proposition that he may have started acting in accordance with it after the advent of the prophet-hood of Sayyidna Muhammad al-Mustafa (SAW). (Allah knows best)

In Tafsir al-Bahr al-Muhit, Abu Hayyan has reported events of several pious elders having met al-Khadir (AS) but, along with it, he has also said:

As for the majority of religious scholars, they hold the position that al-Khadir (AS) has died. (al-Bahr al-Muhit, p. 147, vol..6)

In Tafsir mazhari, Qadii Thana'ullah of panipat has said, 'the resolution of all these difficulties lies in what Sayyid Ahmad al-Sarhandi, known as the reviver of the second Islamic millennium, said on the basis of his mukashafah (discovery through induced illumination). His words are: 'I personally asked al-Khadir (AS) about this matter in a state of kashf. He said', "I and Ilyas (AS) are both not alive. But, Allah TaAla has granted us the ability to appear in the guise of living men and help people in different ways." (Allah, the Pure, the Exalted, knows best)

Conclusion
I have said earlier that none of our articles of faith or problems of religious practice is connected with the death or life of al-Khadir (AS). Therefore, no clarification or explanation was given in the Qur'an, and Sunnah about it. So, there is just no need to enter into unnecessary discussion or debate in it, nor have we been obligated to believe in any one of the sides of the issue. But, as this problem has found currency on a wider level, details have been provided.

Maariful Quran, Volume -5, pp: 642-646.

AbuMuslimKhorasani
17-03-2011, 02:59 PM
w

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 03:59 PM
al-Khadir is dead and Hadiths stating otherwise are VERY VERY (x100) weak.

Allah (swt) tells his Prophet PBUH:
{And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if you die - would they be eternal?} (21:34)

Meaning: If we wanted humans to live eternally on earth then you'd be the first because of your virtue and rank BUT since you're going to die then no one will abide forever on this earth.

Imam Ibn Katheer (rah) said: "If al-Khadir is a Human being then h most certainly falls under this general verse, it is impermissible to say that he is an exception except with a Authentic Proof".
(Al Bidayah wal Nihayah 1/334).

Allah says:
{And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [Allah] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."} [3:81]

IF al-Khadir PBUH was alive during our prophet's PBUH time then at least he could be at his service and follow him, Imam Ahmad narrates from Jabir: The Prophet PBUH said: "By Him who holds my soul in his hand, if Musa was alive today then he would not have had any other choice but to follow me".

If any Prophet was alive then it is obligatory upon him to follow and serve our Prophet PBUH as he'd be a part of this covenant, thus if al Khadir was a Wali then al-Siddiq was much better and if he were a Prophet then Musa PBUH is much better.

On the other hand we see that al Khadir PBUH was nowhere to be found during that time, not even Badr not even when the angels themselves descended to hep the Muslims he was not there.

In another narration he PBUH says: "If Musa and Isa were alive then they'd ect..."

Even when Isa PBUH descends in he final days, he will not follow his own Sharia but the Sharia of Rassulullah Muhammad PBUH and will do Jihad with the Muslims.

What's the point of al-Khadir's PBUH life if he only appears to do minor things like what's been mentioned in some myths? reminds me of the Mahdi of the Shiites who won't help his followers in Bahrain.

Imam ibn al-Qayyim says: "How can al Khadir be alive and he won't pray Jama'ah or Jumu'ah or make Jihad with the Prophet PBUH? Doesn't Prophet Isa pray behind an Imam of this nation just out of respect for our Prophet PBUH?"

Ibn Umar (ra) narrated from the Prophet PBUH: The Prophet Muhammad (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) once prayed the prayer of al-Isha and said: "Do you see this night, after a hundred years from it, no living person on this earth will be alive". Ibn Omar said: "He meant the end of his century". Ibn al-Jawzi (May Allah have mercy on him) said: "These sound narrations cut off the roots of the claim that al-Khadir (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is still alive".
Imam al Bukhari (rah) also used this Hadith to prove his death.

The Prophet PBUH says in another sound Hadith in Ghazwat Badr: O Allah fulfill what you've promised me, O lord if these people from Ahlul-Islam are killed then you will no longer be worshiped on the face of the earth".

If al-Khadir was alive somewhere then I assume he'd be worshiping Allah, The Hadith proves he was not alive during those times.

in the Sahihayn the Prophet PBUH "May Allah have mercy upon Musa! I wish if musa could show more patience then Allah would tell a (fuller) story of both of them".

If al-Khadir was alive he would've been able to meet him in person.

Ibn al Jawzi(rah) narrated from al-bukhari(rah) from Ali ibn Musa al Rida (rah) that al-Khadir is dead.

The two imams Ibrahim bin Ishaq al Harbi and Abu al Hussein ibn al Munadi also spoke that he was dead, also al Qadi abu Ya'ala narrated that he was dead from some of the companions of Ahmad.

There is pretty much consensus that al-Khadir PBUH is dead, those who said he was alive are only a few which can be counted on the fingers and their names are stated by the scholars who refuted them, they are:
-Imam al-Nawawi.
-Ibn al Salah.
-al Tha'alabi.
-al Qurtubi.
-al Mnawi.

As for the Modern day scholars we have:
-Mulla Ali Qari.

may Allah have mercy on all.
Salam aleykum,

ImamGhazzaali
17-03-2011, 04:19 PM
There is Ikhtilaaf so people stop "refuting" the other view[s].

Abu_Tamim
17-03-2011, 04:34 PM
al-Khadir is dead and Hadiths stating otherwise are VERY VERY (x100) weak.

Allah (swt) tells his Prophet PBUH:
{And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if you die - would they be eternal?} (21:34)

Meaning: If we wanted humans to live eternally on earth then you'd be the first because of your virtue and rank BUT since you're going to die then no one will abide forever on this earth.

Imam Ibn Katheer (rah) said: "If al-Khadir is a Human being then h most certainly falls under this general verse, it is impermissible to say that he is an exception except with a Authentic Proof".
(Al Bidayah wal Nihayah 1/334).

Allah says:
{And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [Allah] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."} [3:81]

IF al-Khadir PBUH was alive during our prophet's PBUH time then at least he could be at his service and follow him, Imam Ahmad narrates from Jabir: The Prophet PBUH said: "By Him who holds my soul in his hand, if Musa was alive today then he would not have had any other choice but to follow me".

If any Prophet was alive then it is obligatory upon him to follow and serve our Prophet PBUH as he'd be a part of this covenant, thus if al Khadir was a Wali then al-Siddiq was much better and if he were a Prophet then Musa PBUH is much better.

On the other hand we see that al Khadir PBUH was nowhere to be found during that time, not even Badr not even when the angels themselves descended to hep the Muslims he was not there.

In another narration he PBUH says: "If Musa and Isa were alive then they'd ect..."

Even when Isa PBUH descends in he final days, he will not follow his own Sharia but the Sharia of Rassulullah Muhammad PBUH and will do Jihad with the Muslims.

What's the point of al-Khadir's PBUH life if he only appears to do minor things like what's been mentioned in some myths? reminds me of the Mahdi of the Shiites who won't help his followers in Bahrain.

Imam ibn al-Qayyim says: "How can al Khadir be alive and he won't pray Jama'ah or Jumu'ah or make Jihad with the Prophet PBUH? Doesn't Prophet Isa pray behind an Imam of this nation just out of respect for our Prophet PBUH?"

Ibn Umar (ra) narrated from the Prophet PBUH: The Prophet Muhammad (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) once prayed the prayer of al-Isha and said: "Do you see this night, after a hundred years from it, no living person on this earth will be alive". Ibn Omar said: "He meant the end of his century". Ibn al-Jawzi (May Allah have mercy on him) said: "These sound narrations cut off the roots of the claim that al-Khadir (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is still alive".
Imam al Bukhari (rah) also used this Hadith to prove his death.

The Prophet PBUH says in another sound Hadith in Ghazwat Badr: O Allah fulfill what you've promised me, O lord if these people from Ahlul-Islam are killed then you will no longer be worshiped on the face of the earth".

If al-Khadir was alive somewhere then I assume he'd be worshiping Allah, The Hadith proves he was not alive during those times.

in the Sahihayn the Prophet PBUH "May Allah have mercy upon Musa! I wish if musa could show more patience then Allah would tell a (fuller) story of both of them".

If al-Khadir was alive he would've been able to meet him in person.

Ibn al Jawzi(rah) narrated from al-bukhari(rah) from Ali ibn Musa al Rida (rah) that al-Khadir is dead.

The two imams Ibrahim bin Ishaq al Harbi and Abu al Hussein ibn al Munadi also spoke that he was dead, also al Qadi abu Ya'ala narrated that he was dead from some of the companions of Ahmad.

There is pretty much consensus that al-Khadir PBUH is dead, those who said he was alive are only a few which can be counted on the fingers and their names are stated by the scholars who refuted them, they are:
-Imam al-Nawawi.
-Ibn al Salah.
-al Tha'alabi.
-al Qurtubi.
-al Mnawi.

As for the Modern day scholars we have:
-Mulla Ali Qari.

may Allah have mercy on all.
Salam aleykum,
:ws:
Most the meetings with al Khidr have probably taken place in dreams. Many centuries ago, this Ummah decided to go to sleep. A sleepy people dream a lot.

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Reply to Sister MercyofAllah:



The event related to al-Khadir (AS) mentioned in the Qur’an has nothing to do with the question of his life or death after it. Therefore, no clear statement in this regard is present in the Qur'an, and Sunnah. Some reports suggest his being alive till now while others tell us otherwise. Thus, scholarly opinion has always been at variance in this matter. Those who hold that he is alive argue on the basis of the narrative from Sayyidna Anas (RA) carried by al-Hakim in his al-Mustadrak. It says, 'when the Holy Prophet (SAW) left this mortal world, there came a person in black and white beard. Tearing the crowd of people, he reached inside and started weeping. Then, turning to the noble Companions, he said the following words:

Indeed, in Allah there is endurance against all distress, and recompense of everything taken away, and He is the real caretaker for He alone survives after everyone is dead. So, return to Allah, turn to Him passionately and long for Him alone - because, deprived is he who has been deprived of the reward of enduring distress.

After having said these words, when the visitor departed, Sayyidna Abu Bakr (RA) and Sayyidna 'Ali (RA), said, 'he was al-Khadir (AS). This narrative has also been reported by Ibn al-Jazri in his al-Hisn al-Hasin where the compiler is particular about including nothing but what is authentic.

Ok so now he appears after the Prophet PBUH died? was he busy before? It seems he's wearing black now I thought only green right? How did Abu bakr and Ali may Allah be pleased with them know that he was al-Khadir? is there secret mark or password? if you meet a person and he tells you he's al Khadir PBUH then is it permissible to believe him if there is no verse or Sahih hadith stating that he's alive?

This narration from Anas ibn Malik (ra) was narrated through four chains each weaker than the other and Ibn Kathir (rah) discussed the Sanad of each one in detail.


And in Sahib Muslim, it appears that Dajjal (Imposter) will reach a point close to Madinah when a man of Madinah will come out to confront him. He will be the best of men during that time, or among the better ones. Abu Ishaq said, 'this person will be al-Khadir (AS). (Qurtubi)

True there will be a pious Man who faces him but the hadith never mention al-Khadir PBUH nor does he live in madinah nor did the Prophet PBUH tell us who that man was.


And Ibn Abi ad-Dunya has reported in Kitab-al-Hawatif with necessary chains of authority that Sayyidna 'Ali (RA) met al-Khadir (AS) who told him about a Du'a' which, if recited by anyone after every Salah, would bring for him great reward, forgiveness and mercy. That prayer is given below:

0 He whose hearing of one thing does not hamper His hearing of the other,
And 0 He who never errs in responding to (millions of? Requests simultaneously,
And 0 He who never becomes weary of the plaints made repeatedly by those who make them in prayers, let me, in Your mercy, have a cool taste of Your forgiveness and sweetness of Your pardon. (Qurtubi)

Sanad is weak, have you not read this verse?

{This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.} [5:3]

Why didn't the Prophet PBUH teach us this Dua? this narration is an insult to 'Aql and Naql.


Then, within the same book, exactly the same event, the same prayer and the same incidence of meeting with al-Khadir has been reported from Sayyidna 'Umar (RA) as well. (Qurtubi)


Which is weaker than the first one in Sanad.


Similar to this, there are countless events relating to al-Khadir (RA) that have been attributed to the community's men of Allah (awliya').

Men of Allah? And we the rest of the Muslims are Men of Satan? What a Sufi sheikh sees in his dream or narrates from his Father or his Sheikh of tariqa is NO HUJJA upon the nation.


As for those who do not accept the likelihood of al-Khadir (RA) being alive, their major argument comes from the Hadith of Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar (RA) appearing in Sahih Muslim. He says, 'one night, the Holy Prophet led the 'Isha' prayer for us during the latter days of his blessed life. After having turned for salam, he rose and said these words:

Do you see this night of yours? And after a hundred years from this night, not one of those present over the land will be alive!

After having narrated this report, Sayyidna Ibn 'Umar (RA) said, 'people say different things about it. But, what the Holy Prophet meant to say was that this age will be over after hundred years.'

Imam Bukhari was the one who placed it in his book and he himself used it to deny the life of al-Khadir PBUH, I think bukhari knew what it meant.

Muslim said the last companion died in 110 A.H exactly as the Hadith stated and he was abu tufayl 'amir bin wathila.


This narrative has been reported in Sahih Muslim also from Sayyidna Jabir ibn 'Abdullah, almost in the same words. But, after having quoted this report, Allamah al-Qurtubi said, 'it offers no conclusive argument for those who hold that the notion of al-Khadir (AS) being alive is false because, in this narrative, the words used for the entire progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) are general with a strong emphasis on the generality. Yet, it contains no decisive authority (nass) to prove that this generality covers the entire progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) necessarily. The reason is that Sayyidna (RA) too is among the progeny of Sayyidna Adam (AS) who has not died, nor was he killed. Therefore, as obvious, the letters: alif-lam in the words: 'ala al-ard: over the land) is the alif-lam of 'ahd,' (which points out to something familiar to the addressees), and means the land of Arabia. It does not include the whole land mass of the world out of which the Arabs had never heard even the names of the land of Gog and Magog (Ya'juj and Ma'jui), the far East and the Islands of the West.' This was the view of 'Allamah al-Qurtubi.

Isa PBUH is not alive like we're alive, They did not kill or crucify him but Allah lifted him to himself, he's in a Totally different world.


Similarly, some people have taken the issue of the Finality of Prophet-hood as contrary to the notion of al-Khadir (AS) being alive. The answer to this is also clear. It can be said that the way the 'life' of Sayyidna Isa (AS) is not contrary to the Finality of Prophet-hood, the 'life' of al-Khadir can also be quite similar.


Isa PBUH is not on planet earth.


Some people have raised a doubt about the 'life' of al-Khadir (AS). They say, if he were present during the blessed period of the Holy Prophet (SAW),it would have been mandatory for him to come to him and to serve the cause of Islam under him. Because, it was said in Hadith "Had Musa been alive [today], he would have had no choice but to follow me [for my coming has resulted in the abrogation of the Faith of Musa (AS).” But, not far out is the possibility that the 'life' and prophet-hood of al-Khadir (AS) may be different from that of the usual Shariah-bearing prophets. Since he is charged with the duty of carrying out certain affairs of creation (takwin) entrusted with him by Allah Ta'ala, He takes care of this appointed duty staying aloof from people at large. As for following the SharTah of the Last Prophet, it is not a far out proposition that he may have started acting in accordance with it after the advent of the prophet-hood of Sayyidna Muhammad al-Mustafa (SAW). (Allah knows best)

In Tafsir al-Bahr al-Muhit, Abu Hayyan has reported events of several pious elders having met al-Khadir (AS) but, along with it, he has also said:

As for the majority of religious scholars, they hold the position that al-Khadir (AS) has died. (al-Bahr al-Muhit, p. 147, vol..6)

exactly, he's dead.


In Tafsir mazhari, Qadii Thana'ullah of panipat has said, 'the resolution of all these difficulties lies in what Sayyid Ahmad al-Sarhandi, known as the reviver of the second Islamic millennium, said on the basis of his mukashafah (discovery through induced illumination). His words are: 'I personally asked al-Khadir (AS) about this matter in a state of kashf. He said', "I and Ilyas (AS) are both not alive. But, Allah TaAla has granted us the ability to appear in the guise of living men and help people in different ways." (Allah, the Pure, the Exalted, knows best)

ALSO It could be a Devil you know.

mercyofAllah
17-03-2011, 05:02 PM
Bismillahirrahmanirraheem
I am not that knowledgable brother and I always fear posting here lest I utter something wrong and would earn me the wrath of Allah SWT and I just posted whatever given in the tafsir Maariful Quran as it is from someone knowlegable who gave both the views and presented before. One view I higlighted so it can be distinguished from the other and sorry for my bad. Allahu alam.

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 07:11 PM
Bismillahirrahmanirraheem
I am not that knowledgable brother and I always fear posting here lest I utter something wrong and would earn me the wrath of Allah SWT and I just posted whatever given in the tafsir Maariful Quran as it is from someone knowlegable who gave both the views and presented before. One view I higlighted so it can be distinguished from the other and sorry for my bad. Allahu alam.

سلام

Nor am I "knowledgeable" but we're here to discuss things and this forum is mainly for laymen, sorry if I sound aggressive in my posts.

I think u shouldn't be afraid of posting, just post what you know and if it's wrong then someone will correct it inchallah and that'd be good for you.

mercyofAllah
17-03-2011, 07:25 PM
سلام

Nor am I "knowledgeable" but we're here to discuss things and this forum is mainly for laymen, sorry if I sound aggressive in my posts.

I think u shouldn't be afraid of posting, just post what you know and if it's wrong then someone will correct it inchallah and that'd be good for you.

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem
Hmmm yeah I can post from some source as I did but I cant bring the refutation like you did for that would require me to have more knowledge to refute some scholar's point and how can a layman like me do that. Ofcourse you brought another scholars point of view and not your own. Even if I did that it would be like questioning a scholar and that wont fit me as a layman isn't? May be I am wrong. I am not blaming you if you are to misunderstand me for I just gave an example. But yeah good to read different views and that taught me many things and mainly it showed me more of my ignorance and tolerant to other gps as there are difference of opinion in almost everything. Wa Allahu alam. khair your post is not aggressive.
Wassalam

MujahidAbdullah
17-03-2011, 07:42 PM
al-Khadir is dead and Hadiths stating otherwise are VERY VERY (x100) weak.

Allah (swt) tells his Prophet PBUH:
{And We did not grant to any man before you eternity [on earth]; so if you die - would they be eternal?} (21:34)

Meaning: If we wanted humans to live eternally on earth then you'd be the first because of your virtue and rank BUT since you're going to die then no one will abide forever on this earth.

Imam Ibn Katheer (rah) said: "If al-Khadir is a Human being then h most certainly falls under this general verse, it is impermissible to say that he is an exception except with a Authentic Proof".
(Al Bidayah wal Nihayah 1/334).

Allah says:
{And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [Allah] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."} [3:81]

IF al-Khadir PBUH was alive during our prophet's PBUH time then at least he could be at his service and follow him, Imam Ahmad narrates from Jabir: The Prophet PBUH said: "By Him who holds my soul in his hand, if Musa was alive today then he would not have had any other choice but to follow me".

If any Prophet was alive then it is obligatory upon him to follow and serve our Prophet PBUH as he'd be a part of this covenant, thus if al Khadir was a Wali then al-Siddiq was much better and if he were a Prophet then Musa PBUH is much better.

On the other hand we see that al Khadir PBUH was nowhere to be found during that time, not even Badr not even when the angels themselves descended to hep the Muslims he was not there.

In another narration he PBUH says: "If Musa and Isa were alive then they'd ect..."

Even when Isa PBUH descends in he final days, he will not follow his own Sharia but the Sharia of Rassulullah Muhammad PBUH and will do Jihad with the Muslims.

What's the point of al-Khadir's PBUH life if he only appears to do minor things like what's been mentioned in some myths? reminds me of the Mahdi of the Shiites who won't help his followers in Bahrain.

Imam ibn al-Qayyim says: "How can al Khadir be alive and he won't pray Jama'ah or Jumu'ah or make Jihad with the Prophet PBUH? Doesn't Prophet Isa pray behind an Imam of this nation just out of respect for our Prophet PBUH?"

Ibn Umar (ra) narrated from the Prophet PBUH: The Prophet Muhammad (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) once prayed the prayer of al-Isha and said: "Do you see this night, after a hundred years from it, no living person on this earth will be alive". Ibn Omar said: "He meant the end of his century". Ibn al-Jawzi (May Allah have mercy on him) said: "These sound narrations cut off the roots of the claim that al-Khadir (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is still alive".
Imam al Bukhari (rah) also used this Hadith to prove his death.

The Prophet PBUH says in another sound Hadith in Ghazwat Badr: O Allah fulfill what you've promised me, O lord if these people from Ahlul-Islam are killed then you will no longer be worshiped on the face of the earth".

If al-Khadir was alive somewhere then I assume he'd be worshiping Allah, The Hadith proves he was not alive during those times.

in the Sahihayn the Prophet PBUH "May Allah have mercy upon Musa! I wish if musa could show more patience then Allah would tell a (fuller) story of both of them".

If al-Khadir was alive he would've been able to meet him in person.

Ibn al Jawzi(rah) narrated from al-bukhari(rah) from Ali ibn Musa al Rida (rah) that al-Khadir is dead.

The two imams Ibrahim bin Ishaq al Harbi and Abu al Hussein ibn al Munadi also spoke that he was dead, also al Qadi abu Ya'ala narrated that he was dead from some of the companions of Ahmad.

There is pretty much consensus that al-Khadir PBUH is dead, those who said he was alive are only a few which can be counted on the fingers and their names are stated by the scholars who refuted them, they are:
-Imam al-Nawawi.
-Ibn al Salah.
-al Tha'alabi.
-al Qurtubi.
-al Mnawi.

As for the Modern day scholars we have:
-Mulla Ali Qari.

may Allah have mercy on all.
Salam aleykum,

Like the brother said though - there is Ikhtilaaf on this issue - I was pointing out the fact that you cite Imam nawawi as a source that kidhr was a nabi, but you ignore him as a source for kidhr being alive.

Im just saying, that maybe it would be better to cite the fact that many reputable scholars, with full knowledge of the strength of the ahadeeth, still beleived kidhr to be alive, rather then stating YOUR oppinion as cold hard fact.

Imam Nawawi reports to have spoken with Kidhr on numerous occasions - would say he was a fool?

ibn kathir states -
“If there exist many narrations regarding one issue, then even if they are weak, they can be accepted.” [Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Surah Al-An’am, verse 123]

Imam Bayhaqi said regarding the narrations of kidhr:
“These narration’s are weak, but there are so many similar narrations, which suggests that they do have some origin. The coming of Khidr upon the death of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace).

Now if you could ask one of the Taba tabieen if he thought kidhr was alive, Im sure you would take his word for it.
Well we just happen to have a statement from one of them here -
narrated from Abu Ishaq Dajjaal will kill a person once and then bring him back to life, then he will ask him, “Do you believe that I am God?” That person will reply, “No! I am convinced that you are the Dajjaal of which the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) informed us”. Dajjaal will throw him in his fire, which in reality will be Paradise.The narrator of this Hadith is Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam).

(Sahih Muslim, Chapter on Dajjaal)

Abu Is-haaq was amongst the Taba’tabi’een and it was common knowledge during that period that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was alive and his death will occur at the time of Dajjaal.

Oh and you forgot a few names on the list of scholars who beleived him to be alive -
Ibn Hajar Asqalani
Imam bayhaqi
Ibn Kathir
Imam Dhahabi
Even Muhamed Ibn Abdul wahab

Thats an impressive set of refrences

Now this isnt a matter of Aqeedah, Kuffr, or Imaan, so you are free to have your own oppinion on the matter. But when you speak sarcasticly and matter of factly regarding this issue, you are insulting those who held the oppinion that he is alaive - men whose opinions are worth much more than either of our opinions. You have made a sound argument that he has passed, but some big big big name scholars have disagreed with you on this matter.

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 09:32 PM
Like the brother said though - there is Ikhtilaaf on this issue - I was pointing out the fact that you cite Imam nawawi as a source that kidhr was a nabi, but you ignore him as a source for kidhr being alive.

Im just saying, that maybe it would be better to cite the fact that many reputable scholars, with full knowledge of the strength of the ahadeeth, still beleived kidhr to be alive, rather then stating YOUR oppinion as cold hard fact.

Imam Nawawi reports to have spoken with Kidhr on numerous occasions - would say he was a fool?

ibn kathir states -

Imam Bayhaqi said regarding the narrations of kidhr:

Now if you could ask one of the Taba tabieen if he thought kidhr was alive, Im sure you would take his word for it.
Well we just happen to have a statement from one of them here -

Oh and you forgot a few names on the list of scholars who beleived him to be alive -
Ibn Hajar Asqalani
Imam bayhaqi
Ibn Kathir
Imam Dhahabi
Even Muhamed Ibn Abdul wahab

Thats an impressive set of refrences

Now this isnt a matter of Aqeedah, Kuffr, or Imaan, so you are free to have your own oppinion on the matter. But when you speak sarcasticly and matter of factly regarding this issue, you are insulting those who held the oppinion that he is alaive - men whose opinions are worth much more than either of our opinions. You have made a sound argument that he has passed, but some big big big name scholars have disagreed with you on this matter.

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

let me address these points:

1- Firstly "Prophet or Wali", I said the consensus of the Muhaqqiqeen(researchers) is that he was a Prophet and that this was the saying of the Jumhour(Vast Majority), when al-Nawawi agreed with the majority on this issue I quoted him and in reality I was quoting the scholars of the Ummah through him.
Secondly, you do not want me to quote from the Imam? If I disagree with al-Nawawi (rah) on whether al-Khadir PBUH is alive or dead this means I can't quote al-Nawawi anymore? funny.

2- Imam al-Nawawi (rah) meeting a person and talking to him is not a Hujja upon anyone in any matter, we work with the Quran and the Sunnah only. The scholars (Majority) who disagree with al-Nawawi certainly don't think he's a fool, it is not a condition that the Man you disagree with is a fool.

3- Then you quote Imam al Bayhaqi (rah) who says the narrations of al-Khadir PBUH being alive are weak "These narrations are weak" , yes I believe so too.

4- You say that in Sahih Muslim it is said:
"The narrator of this Hadith is Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam)."

I say this is not what I came across, In Sahih Muslim 2938 there is a Sahih hadith mentioned about al-Dajjal(LA) who cuts a pious man from Madinah in half then rejoins him again to revive him.

Then Imam Muslim writes:

قال ابو اسحق: يقال: ان هذا الرجل هو الخضر عليه السلام

"Abu Ishaq said: it is said that: this man is al-khadir PBUH."

This proves that Abu Ishaq (rah) does not believe in this because he said "yuqal" which means "It is said that" and anyone who knows a little bit about Hadiths knows that this by default weakens any saying which comes after it and proves that he who is saying it does not believe in it but he's just mentioning it.

I also opened "Sharhu al Nawawi 'ala Muslim" and found the same exact thing, whereas what you quoted is:
"Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam)."

VERY BIG difference between the two, I suggest you verify.

5- Then you quote a set of scholars and you say that they believe al-Khadir PBUH is alive, I'll take the first scholar in your list:

Abu a Fadl Ahmad bin Ali bin Muhammad bin Ahmad ibn Hajar al 'Asqalani (died 852 A.H), it just so turns out that this scholar wrote an entire book on al Khadir PBUH:
- al Zahr al Nadir fi hal al Khadir الزهر النضر في حال الخضر

He said on page 35:

لا يخفى على طالب الحديث الذي له أدنى إلمام بقواعد نقد الحديث أن الأحاديث المرفوعة والموقوفة في استمرار حياة الخضر وكذلك الأخبار والحكايات الواردة بهذا الصدد واهية الصدور والإعجاز لا تقوم بمثلها حجة
Translation: "it is not concealed from any student of Hadith who has learned the basics of this science that the Marfu'u and Mawquf narrations which state that al-Khadir is alive are all extremely weak and so are the stories and rumors and they are not acceptable as a Hujjah(argument to prove his existence)."

He said at the end of his book on page 162:

والذي تميل إليه النفس من حيث الأدلة القوية خلاف ما يعتقده العوام من استمرار حياته
Translation: "After reviewing the proofs the Nafs(myself) leans towards what opposes the saying of the laymen who say that he is alive".

Allah knows if you were trying to be sarcastic with that list you made because from what I know the rest of the names you mentioned all believe him to be dead.

Salam Aleykum,

MujahidAbdullah
17-03-2011, 09:50 PM
:ws:

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

let me address these points:

1- Firstly "Prophet or Wali", I said the consensus of the Muhaqqiqeen(researchers) is that he was a Prophet and that this was the saying of the Jumour(Vast Majority), when al-Nawawi agreed with the majority on this issue I quoted him and in reality I was quoting the scholars of the Ummah through him.
Secondly, you do not want me to quote from the Imam? If I disagree with al-Nawawi (rah) on whether al-Khadir PBUH is alive or dead this means I can't quote al-Nawawi anymore? funny.

Perfectley understandable


2- Imam al-Nawawi (rah) meeting a person and talking to him is not a Hujja upon anyone in any matter, we work with the Quran and the Sunnah only. The scholars (Majority) who disagree with al-Nawawi certainly don't think he's a fool, it is not a condition that the Man you disagree with is a fool.

Also reasonable, however, his scholarly opinion and his sworn testimony are not worthless


3- Then you quote Imam al Bayhaqi (rah) who says the narrations of al-Khidar PBUH being alive are weak "These narrations are weak" , yes I believe so too.

No one is arguing with you that many of the narrations are weak, and if you agree with Bayhaqi, then Im assuming you agree with the rest of the quote -"..but there are so many similar narrations, which suggests that they do have some origin."




4- You say that in Sahih Muslim it is said:
"The narrator of this Hadith is Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam)."

I say this is not what I came across, In Sahih Muslim 2938 there is a Sahih hadith mentioned about al-Dajjal(LA) who cuts a pious man from Madinah in half then rejoins him again to revive him.

Then Imam Muslim writes:


"Abu Ishaq said: it is said that: this man is al-khadir PBUH."

This proves that Abu Ishaq (rah) does not believe in this because he said "yuqal" which means "It is sad that" and anyone who knows a little bit about Hadiths knows that this by default weakens any saying which comes after it and proves that he who is saying it does not believe in it but he's just mentioning it.

You are much more fluent in Arabic then I, so I trust you are correct here as well



5- Then you quote a set of scholars and you say that they believe al-Khadir PBUH is alive, I'll take the first scholar in your list:

Abu a Fadl Ahmad bin Ali bin Muhammad bin Ahmad ibn Hajar al 'Aqalani (died 852 A.H), it just so turns out that this scholar wrote an entire book on al Khadir PBUH:
- al Zahr al Nadir fi hal al Khadir الزهر النضر في حال الخضر

He said on page 35:

Translation: "it is not concealed from any student of Hadith who has learned the basics of this science that the Marfu'u and Mawquf narrations which state that al-Khadir is alive are all extremely weak and so are the stories and rumors and they are not acceptable as a Hujjah(argument to prove his existence)."

He said at the end of his book on page 162:

Translation: "After reviewing the proofs the Nafs(myself) leans towards what opposes the saying of the laymen who say that he is alive".

Allah knows if you were trying to be sarcastic with that list you made because from what I know the rest of the names you mentioned all believe him to be dead.

No sarcsm there, from what I ahve found - those whom I listed all beleive Kidhr :alyhis: to be alive

Hafidhh Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in his A’sabah that Khidr’s name is in the list of Companions of our Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace).)

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir writes: “ When the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) departed from this world, Umar heard someone come into the house but saw no-one, when he asked, Umar said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam)”. Then a voice was heard which said, ‘O household of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace), be patient’. Ali said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam).” (Sirat-un-Nabi and Tareekh ibn Kathir chap Demise of Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) by Hafidhh ibn Kathir).

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir states that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was the son of Adam (Alay hissalaam), who prayed to Allah: ‘O Allah, give my son Khidr a long life so that he lives until the Day of Judgement’. Adam (Alay hissalaam) also told Khidr (Alay hissalaam) ‘O my son, you shall bury me after my death’. He also gave him news of his long life. Khidr (Alay hissalaam) also sat in the boat of the Prophet Nuh (Alay hissalaam).

[Tareekh by Ibn Kathir, Volume One, Chapter ‘Musa and Khidr’]

Imam Dhahabi writes, Umar bin Abdul Aziz was talking with a man. After he had finished talking with him, he returned and someone asked him who, he had been talking with. He replied, “He was Khidr and he came to give me some good news, that I will be the ruler of the Muslim world.”

(Tadkarahtul Huffaz biography of Umar bin Abdul Aziz by Imam Dhahabi)

My opposition to your posts does not come from an opposition to the proofs that he is alive or dead, my opposition comes from the way in which you speak so boldly as if you know better then those scholars who disagree with you. my point being, it would be better to say - "but many great scholars beleive him to be alive" in your original response to the question rather then saying "hes dead" (and thats that) totally disregarding the valid oppinions of real life scholars with access to the same evidence if not more than you.
Imam Nawawi and Ibn kathir were presented with the same evidence, if not more than you, yet you know better?

Simallarly, you make sarcastic remarks reagrding weather Al Kidhr is wearing black or green in a weak narration -

Umm-Ul-Hasan
17-03-2011, 10:22 PM
Bismillahirrahmanirraheem
Hmmm yeah I can post from some source as I did but I cant bring the refutation like you did for that would require me to have more knowledge to refute some scholar's point and how can a layman like me do that. Ofcourse you brought another scholars point of view and not your own. Even if I did that it would be like questioning a scholar and that wont fit me as a layman isn't? May be I am wrong. I am not blaming you if you are to misunderstand me for I just gave an example. But yeah good to read different views and that taught me many things and mainly it showed me more of my ignorance and tolerant to other gps as there are difference of opinion in almost everything. Wa Allahu alam. khair your post is not aggressive.
Wassalam

MashaAllah, we need more people like this. Knowledge comes with humillity and respect. Imam Maalik rahimahullah said: 'Half of knowledge is saying I don't know, when you don't know!' SubhanAllah, many SunniForumers will answer questions without knowledge and fear. Such a shame.
And sarcasm has become a common ridiculing technique. What is the need for sarcsam? It's rude. If someone's wrong, suffice it to point that out.
May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

ImamGhazzaali
17-03-2011, 10:26 PM
What is wrong with people not accepting Ikhtilaaf in Fiqh?

Umm-Ul-Hasan
17-03-2011, 10:35 PM
But we do have Ikhtilaaf in Fiqh.

TripolySunni
17-03-2011, 11:53 PM
:ws:


Perfectley understandable



Also reasonable, however, his scholarly opinion and his sworn testimony are not worthless



No one is arguing with you that many of the narrations are weak, and if you agree with Bayhaqi, then Im assuming you agree with the rest of the quote -"..but there are so many similar narrations, which suggests that they do have some origin."





You are much more fluent in Arabic then I, so I trust you are correct here as well




No sarcsm there, from what I ahve found - those whom I listed all beleive Kidhr :alyhis: to be alive

Hafidhh Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in his A’sabah that Khidr’s name is in the list of Companions of our Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace).)

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir writes: “ When the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) departed from this world, Umar heard someone come into the house but saw no-one, when he asked, Umar said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam)”. Then a voice was heard which said, ‘O household of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace), be patient’. Ali said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam).” (Sirat-un-Nabi and Tareekh ibn Kathir chap Demise of Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) by Hafidhh ibn Kathir).

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir states that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was the son of Adam (Alay hissalaam), who prayed to Allah: ‘O Allah, give my son Khidr a long life so that he lives until the Day of Judgement’. Adam (Alay hissalaam) also told Khidr (Alay hissalaam) ‘O my son, you shall bury me after my death’. He also gave him news of his long life. Khidr (Alay hissalaam) also sat in the boat of the Prophet Nuh (Alay hissalaam).

[Tareekh by Ibn Kathir, Volume One, Chapter ‘Musa and Khidr’]

Imam Dhahabi writes, Umar bin Abdul Aziz was talking with a man. After he had finished talking with him, he returned and someone asked him who, he had been talking with. He replied, “He was Khidr and he came to give me some good news, that I will be the ruler of the Muslim world.”

(Tadkarahtul Huffaz biography of Umar bin Abdul Aziz by Imam Dhahabi)

My opposition to your posts does not come from an opposition to the proofs that he is alive or dead, my opposition comes from the way in which you speak so boldly as if you know better then those scholars who disagree with you. my point being, it would be better to say - "but many great scholars beleive him to be alive" in your original response to the question rather then saying "hes dead" (and thats that) totally disregarding the valid oppinions of real life scholars with access to the same evidence if not more than you.
Imam Nawawi and Ibn kathir were presented with the same evidence, if not more than you, yet you know better?

Simallarly, you make sarcastic remarks reagrding weather Al Kidhr is wearing black or green in a weak narration -
Salam,
dang I wrote a reply and it got deleted because of my slow connection...

in short
-Ibn Hajar al Asqalani doesn't believe he is alive (He explained in detail in his research).
-al Dhahabi mentioned an acceptable Isnad which has been severely weakened by many scholars but the events of the Hadith took place before the 100 years so it's acceptable for some.
-ibn Kathir believes he's not alive (He explained extensively in al-Bidayah wal nihayah).
-Bayhaqi I don't know, if it's a hadith he narrated then that doesn't mean he believe it, many of the scholrs who say he is dead have narrated Hadith about him being alive in their books.
-ibn abdulWahhab, he's modern day scholar so ... I dunno I never read any of his books yet.

ImamGhazzaali
18-03-2011, 01:16 AM
But we do have Ikhtilaaf in Fiqh.

And that is what Deobandis, Baraylwiyyah, Salafi, Hanafi, Maaliki, Shawaafi' and all other people of Qiblah need to gulp down, whether it is hard or easy for them.

mukhtar
18-03-2011, 11:10 AM
MashaAllah, we need more people like this. Knowledge comes with humillity and respect. Imam Maalik rahimahullah said: 'Half of knowledge is saying I don't know, when you don't know!' SubhanAllah, many SunniForumers will answer questions without knowledge and fear. Such a shame.
And sarcasm has become a common ridiculing technique. What is the need for sarcsam? It's rude. If someone's wrong, suffice it to point that out.
May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

Salaam.
Yes! We do need more people like this...
I agree with the people who have talked about the lack of etiquette from the brother.

Brother, we could write hundreds of lines to refute your lack of etiquette.
You should repent from the sarcasm you have exposed. You are sitting comfortably (like all of us) in front of your machine, typing and smiling....while those who have held opinions on certain matters, among the 'ulama of the past, and some of the present, had to suffer great pains for it....the accounts of those pains are too many to write here...It is enough to say that Al Nawawi RA has saved any one who came after him regarding the 'uluum of hadeeth...we could go on and on....

It is an experienced matter that those who insist in bad etiquette are tested with suu al khaatima (an unfortunate ending)...may Allah protect us and you.

Mukhtar