Kitrab tawheed and refutation of Jahmiyah of Imam Bukharee

[AbuTaymiyah]

salam aleykum

Imam Bukharee called the last chapter of his Saheeh, which is most authentic book after Kitabullah : “ Kitab At Tawheed wa Rad ‘ala Jahmiyah wa ghayrihim” meaning “ Kitab Tawheed and refutation of Jahmiyah and others”

And in it Imam Bukharee gathered Ahadeeth on Allah’s Sifat showing that believing in them is believing in Tawheed, and denying them like by Taweel is manhaj of Jahmiyah.

Why did salaf condemned Jahmiyah and gathered ahadeeth having Allah’s Hand, Foot, Allah’s Anger, Hapinees, Satisfaction…also Allah Seeing, Speaking, Being on His Arsh ?

Why were Jahmiyah condemned by Salaf ?

Only for not believing in Allah’s Speech, Seeing, Listening or also for denying Allah’s Hand, Feet, Istiwa, Nuzul.

Here are some ahadeeth quoted against Jahmiyah, and you can see how these ahadeeth are refutation of Jahmiyah.

If one says Salaf made tafweed in these ahadeeth, then did they also make that in hadeeth of Allah speaking, Seeing, as here imam Bukharee mentioned them all.

Why did Imam Bukharee mentioned Ahadeeth like Alla’s Nuzul, or Zaynab being proud that her Nikah was decide from above ( fawqa) 7 skyes to refute Jahmiyah.

What is the point refuting someone with hadeeth you do tafweed on, you can only refute someone if you affirm that your daleel have a meaning.

I will ask seekers of truth to read all ahadeeth and think what Sifat does Imam Bukharee affirm in it and how is it a refutation of Jahmiyah.

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "(The people will be thrown into Hell ( Fire) and it will keep on saying, 'Is there any more?' till the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say, 'Qad! Qad! (enough! enough!) By Your 'Izzat (Honor and Power) and YOUR KARAM (Generosity)!' Paradise will remain spacious enough to accommodate more people until Allah will create some more people and let them dwell in the superfluous space of Paradise. "

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?" '

Narrated Abu Musa:

We were with the Prophet on a journey, and whenever we ascended a high place, we used to say, "Allahu Akbar." The Prophet said, "Don't trouble yourselves too much! You are not calling a deaf or an absent person, but you are calling One Who Hears, Sees, and is very near." Then he came to me while I was saying in my heart, "La hawla wala quwwatta illa billah (There is neither might nor power but with Allah)." He said, to me, "O 'Abdullah bin Qais! Say, 'La hawla wala quwwata illa billah (There is neither might nor power but with Allah), for it is one of the treasures of Paradise." Or said, "Shall I tell you of it?"

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 485:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said to the Prophet "O Allah's Apostle! Teach me an invocation with which I may invoke Allah in my prayers." The Prophet said, "Say: O Allah! I have wronged my soul very much (oppressed myself), and none forgives the sins but You; so please bestow Your Forgiveness upon me. No doubt, You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 486:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet said, "Gabriel called me and said, 'Allah has heard the statement of your people and what they replied to you.'"


Volume 9, Book 93, Number 500:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "There is none having a greater sense of Ghira than Allah, and for that reason He has forbidden shameful deeds and sins (illegal sexual intercourse etc.) And there is none who likes to be praised more than Allah does." (See Hadith No. 147, Vol. 7)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 501:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When Allah created the Creation, He wrote in His Book--and He wrote (that) about Himself, and it is placed with Him on the Throne--'Verily My Mercy overcomes My Anger.'"

Narrated 'Abdullah:

Ad-Dajjal was mentioned in the presence of the Prophet. The Prophet said, "Allah is not hidden from you; He is not one-eyed," and pointed with his hand towards his eye, adding, "While Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a protruding grape."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 505:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Allah did not send any prophet but that he warned his nation of the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). He is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed, The word 'Kafir' (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes."

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah's Hand is full, and (its fullness) is not affected by the continuous spending, day and night." He also said, "Do you see what He has spent since He created the Heavens and the Earth? Yet all that has not decreased what is in His Hand." He also said, "His Throne is over the water and in His other Hand is the balance (of Justice) and He raises and lowers (whomever He will)." (See Hadith No. 206, Vol. 6)

( note Imam Tirmidhee under this hadeeth mentionned manhaj of ahle ilm was to belive in them, we do not say like Jahmiyah Allah created Adam with His power)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 509:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will grasp the whole Earth by His Hand, and all the Heavens in His right, and then He will say, 'I am the King." Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Apostle said," Allah will grasp the Earth...' "
Narrated 'Abdullah:

A Jew came to the Prophet and said, "O Muhammad! Allah will hold the heavens on a Finger, and the mountains on a Finger, and the trees on a Finger, and all the creation on a Finger, and then He will say, 'I am the King.' " On that Allah's Apostle smiled till his premolar teeth became visible, and then recited:--
'No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to him....(39.67) 'Abdullah added: Allah's Apostle smiled (at the Jew's statement) expressing his wonder and believe in what was said.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 511:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

A man from the people of the scripture came to the Prophet and said, "O Abal-Qasim! Allah will hold the Heavens upon a Finger, and the Earth on a Finger and the land on a Finger, and all the creation on a Finger, and will say, 'I am the King! I am the King!' " I saw the Prophet (after hearing that), smiling till his premolar teeth became visible, and he then recited: -- 'No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to him... (39.67)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 512:

Narrated Al-Mughira:

Sa'd bin 'Ubada said, "If I saw a man with my wife, I would strike him (behead him) with the blade of my sword." This news reached Allah's Apostle who then said, "You people are astonished at Sa'd's Ghira. By Allah, I have more Ghira than he, and Allah has more Ghira than I, and because of Allah's Ghira, He has made unlawful Shameful deeds and sins (illegal sexual intercourse etc.) done in open and in secret. And there is none who likes that the people should repent to Him and beg His pardon than Allah, and for this reason He sent the warners and the givers of good news. And there is none who likes to be praised more than Allah does, and for this reason, Allah promised to grant Paradise (to the doers of good)." 'Abdul Malik said, "No person has more Ghira than Allah."

Narrated Anas:

Zaid bin Haritha came to the Prophet complaining about his wife. The Prophet kept on saying (to him), "Be afraid of Allah and keep your wife." Aisha said, "If Allah's Apostle were to conceal anything (of the Quran he would have concealed this Verse." Zainab used to boast before the wives of the Prophet and used to say, "You were given in marriage by your families, while I was married (to the Prophet) by Allah from over seven Heavens." And Thabit recited, "The Verse:-- 'But (O Muhammad) you did hide in your heart that which Allah was about to make manifest, you did fear the people,' (33.37) was revealed in connection with Zainab and Zaid bin Haritha."

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When Allah had finished His creation, He wrote over his Throne: 'My Mercy preceded My Anger.'

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "The people will fall unconscious on the Day of Resurrection, then suddenly I will see Moses holding one of the pillars of the Throne." Abu Huraira said: The Prophet said, "I will be the first person to be resurrected and will see Moses holding the Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 525:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "(A group of) angels stay with you at night and (another group of) angels by daytime, and both groups gather at the time of the 'Asr and Fajr prayers. Then those angels who have stayed with you overnight, ascend (to Heaven) and Allah asks them (about you) ---- and He knows everything about you. "In what state did you leave My slaves?' The angels reply, 'When we left them, they were praying, and when we reached them they were praying.' "

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody gives in charity something equal to a date from his honestly earned money ----for nothing ascends to Allah except good---- then Allah will take it in His Right (Hand) and bring it up for its owner as anyone of you brings up a baby horse, till it becomes like a mountain." Abu Huraira said: The Prophet. said, "Nothing ascends to Allah except good."

Narrated Jarir:

We were sitting with the Prophet and he looked at the moon on the night of the full-moon and said, "You people will see your Lord as you see this full moon, and you will have no trouble in seeing Him, so if you can avoid missing (through sleep or business, etc.) a prayer before sunrise (Fajr) and a prayer before sunset (Asr) you must do so." (See Hadith No. 529, Vol. 1)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 530:

Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 531:

Narrated Jarir:

Allah's Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim:

Allah's Apostle said, "There will be none among you but his Lord will speak to him, and there will be no interpreter between them nor a screen to screen Him."

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "(There are) three (types of persons to whom) Allah will neither speak to them on the Day of Resurrections, nor look at them (They are):--(1) a man who takes a false oath that he has been offered for a commodity a price greater than what he has actually been offered; (2) and a man who takes a false oath after the 'Asr (prayer) in order to grab the property of a Muslim through it; (3) and a man who forbids others to use the remaining superfluous water. To such a man Allah will say on the Day of Resurrection, 'Today I withhold My Blessings from you as you withheld the superfluous part of that (water) which your hands did not create.' "

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If Allah loves a person, He calls Gabriel, saying, 'Allah loves so and so, O Gabriel love him' So Gabriel would love him and then would make an announcement in the Heavens: 'Allah has loved so and-so therefore you should love him also.' So all the dwellers of the Heavens would love him, and then he is granted the pleasure of the people on the earth." (See Hadith No. 66, Vol. 8)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 578:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "There are angels coming to you in succession at night, and others during the day, and they all gather at the time of 'Asr and Fajr prayers. Then the angels who have stayed with you overnight ascend (to the heaven) and He (Allah) asks them though He perfectly knows their affairs. 'In what state have you left my slaves?' They say, 'When we left them, they were praying and when we came to them they were praying.' "

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Every night when it is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Superior, the Blessed, descends to the nearest heaven and says: Is there anyone to invoke Me that I may respond to his invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone asking My forgiveness so that I may forgive him?. " (See Hadith No. 246,Vol. 2)

( Remember this hadeeth is in refutatiuon of Jahmiyah and believing in it is believing in Tawheed)

Narrated 'Abdullah:

A priest from the Jews came (to the Prophet) and said, "On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will place all the heavens on one finger, and the Earth on one finger, and the waters and the land on one finger, and all the creation on one finger, and then He will shake them and say. 'I am the King! I am the King!'" I saw the Prophet smiling till his premolar teeth became visible expressing his amazement and his belief in what he had said. Then the Prophet recited: 'No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to Him (up to)...; High is He above the partners they attribute to Him.' (39.67)


Insha Allah I will also bring ahadeeth from Imam Dawood from his Sunan in his chapter refutation of Jahmiyah

And how to refute Jahmiyah with ahadeeth that we do not know theur meanings, only Allah knows them.

May Allah protect us from jahmiyah

[samrqandi]

Assalaamu^alaikum

For your kind information, ashari's are not jahmi's get your facts right! Its like saying oh well jahmis believe in prophet muhammad so that means sunnis are jahmi's!

Also you cut and pasted alot of ahadeeth when in fact imam al-bukari qoutes many other traditions since all the hadeeth are related about Allah and how great Allah really is! Also the print of saheeh al-bukhari i have states kitab al tawheed [and finishes there]. Then it states: baab ma jaa^ fee dua'in-nabi ummatahu ila tawheed Allah tabaraka wa ta3ala. maybe the version i have hasnt got that in it allahu alam. maybe its in other prints.

Also imam al-bukhari states regarding the ayaat: "kulli shayin haalikun ila wajhahu" imam bukhari said the wording wajhahu meaning mulkahu’ (mulk means dominion e.g. paradise and hell). Which would be translated as; “everything shall perish except Allah’s dominion”.

As mentioned in the book of tafsir in saheeh al-Bukhari under the chapter of interpretation of surah al-qasas (28) ayat 88. Imam Bukhari’s taweel has not been fully translated by the author into English as can be seen in Dr Muhsin khans translation vol6 page 278, whereas he only translates the ayat but does not translate what imam bukhari has said regarding the ayat. In addition, if you read mahmood matrajis translation of bukhari under the same chapter, he fails to translate imam bukhari’s ta’weel, vol 6 page 237-8.

Simple question do you accept what imam bukhari has said here? does that sound a bit like a jahmi influenced statement?

[athari]

For your kind information, ashari's are not jahmi's get your facts right!

There are 3 types of Asharis.
1. Who followed the path of Abul Hasan Ashari when he is the Imam, the leader, the defender of heretic Mutazilites for 40 years
2. He abandoned the ways Mutazilites and took the path of Kullabiya sect (as mentioned by ibn Kathir)
3. He abandoned and made his way as it is in the book Ibanah,Maqalat (as mentioned by Ibn Asakir)

Abul Hasan claims to follow Izaja-system. We ask him and his likes One Simple Question. Since you have ijazas and follow ijaza system, why don't you (Asharites/Maturidis) and your contemporary Asharites like Wahbi Ghawji (also refuted) produce the last work or the final work or the work of ABul Hasan Ashari known as Ibanah ? where is that important book ? and what happened to the ijaza-system ? does the ijaza system only work with books which are full of theological rhetoric or does it work like books Ibanah and Maqalat ?

To answer your question:
Simple question do you accept what imam bukhari has said here? does that sound a bit like a jahmi influenced statement?

We accept that statement, there is nothing wrong with. At the same time we ask you a simple question (which your likes couldn't answer before in case of Saaq):
1. Do you accept that Wajh is an attribute of Allah or do you deny it like Mutazilites and Jahmites ?
2. Do you claim that Imam Bukhari didn't attribute Wajh to be an attribute of Allah ?


The other part of your question, could be answered:


On the other hand, there are some examples of real literalism in al-Bukhari's refutation of the Jahmis (Khalq Af`al al-`Ibad), and some spurious `Aqida texts attributed to Imams al-Shafi`i and Ahmad (cf. al-Radd `ala al Jahmiyya which he never authored).

http://*********************************index.php?showtop ic=119

So Who would say that Khalq Afal al-Ibaad wa Radd ala Jahmiyya would contain *REAL LITERALISM* since this book was authored against Jahmites.

As for the book of Imam Ahmad then Ibn Hajar Asqalani attributed it to Imam Ahmed, which is another refutation of both GF Haddad and Wahbi Ghawji (the teacher of ABul Hasan ?)

See http://lamppostproductions.org/articles/abdullahali/TheSpeechandWordofAllah.htm

The fact is the books Radd ala Jahmiyya of Bukhari and Ahmad contains anthropomorphism and literalism according to people of Kalaam. Just like Qurtubi said that Jiha is attributed to salaf. So people like GF Haddad go into state of denial.

[maturidi sufi]

"Athari" you are going in rounds and rounds without any conclusion. Which Scholar from Salaf or Khalaf said "Wajh" is an attribute ?

You seem to ascribe attributes whenever you like whatever you like ? is there any method or way you follow or just random ?

[athari]

You are one confused Maturidi Sufi.

Here is a recap:
Asharites say Allah has 7 attributes
Maturidis say Allah has 8 attributes (according to Ali Rida)
Faraz Rabbani said he has more than 7 attributes (see his website)

So you see adding or negating one attribute is serious thing. Anthropomorphists are called kafirs because they attributed something to Allah which he is not. The Jahmites/Mutazilites are kaafirs because they negated something which Allah is.

So ask your Ashari and Maturidi Muftis why there is so much difference in attributes of Allah if ye claim to be on the only right path.

You should also get some Ashari books. Read what Abul Hasan Ashari said about "Wajh" as reported by Ibn Asakir in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari. If you can't find the quote, I will be glad to post the views of Abul Hasan al-Ashari from Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari of Ibn Asakir which some of the Asharites of present day do not follow.

[faqir]

:salam:

What is clear from all of the above posted nonsense it that the true confused souls are pseudo-"athari" and his buddy from ahya, Abu Taymiyyah.

Since pseudo-"athari" is playing the numbers game I would be interested in exactly how many attributes he thinks Allah has and would like us to believe in? As for us, we [Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jam'ah] accept any attribute that Allah has affirmed for Himself in the divine texts. As explained by one of the Salaf [Imam Ahmad] regarding the texts, 'We believe in them, affirm them without how and without meaning.' [Lum`at ul-I`tiqaad, p. 6] [i.e. Tafwid]. However, if there is a need for interpretation in order to refute innovators and their like, then they [the Salaf] went ahead and applied interpretation [Imam Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim)].

Sure, unlike anthropomorphists such as yourself we do not attribute a direction or body to Allah swt - Alhamdolillah!! Is this what your beef is with us Sunnis O pseudo"athari"?

As for the nonsense you have implied above that the Asharis believe in only seven attributes and fulan believes in blah blah blah - it just shows up your utter ignorance of the creed of ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah.

I suggest you stop reading the b.s. your pseudo-Salafis and the few non Ashari/Maturidi scholars from the Middle Ages that you idolise [who themselves were guilty of errors in Creed] wrote about Ashari and Maturidi Creed but rather you go to the living teachers who are qualified to teach the texts from these two schools. Maybe then, you won't come across as such a fool [make du'a - Allah is merciful!]


Wasalam.

[samrqandi]

assalaamu^alaikum

i have seen responses but athari's response subhanallah!


There are 3 types of Asharis.
1. Who followed the path of Abul Hasan Ashari when he is the Imam, the leader, the defender of heretic Mutazilites for 40 years
2. He abandoned the ways Mutazilites and took the path of Kullabiya sect (as mentioned by ibn Kathir)
3. He abandoned and made his way as it is in the book Ibanah,Maqalat (as mentioned by Ibn Asakir)

Your three line definition of what the ashari’s are is just a waste of time and space! More like you’re giving a bibliographical sketch of Imam Abul Hasan Al-Ashari’s life. But you never seemed to answer what I said above but instead subdivided the Imam’s life into three phases. I mean you’re all over the place matey!


Abul Hasan claims to follow Izaja-system. We ask him and his likes One Simple Question. Since you have ijazas and follow ijaza system, why don't you (Asharites/Maturidis) and your contemporary Asharites like Wahbi Ghawji (also refuted) produce the last work or the final work or the work of ABul Hasan Ashari known as Ibanah ? where is that important book ? and what happened to the ijaza-system ? does the ijaza system only work with books which are full of theological rhetoric or does it work like books Ibanah and Maqalat ?

Is that supposed to be a refutation? Brother now all the akabir imams did not use kitab ul ibana as the decisive book in the matters of aqeeda, it was however referenced back time to time. [there is an entire debate on the book ibana] Also what really shows your biased mentality is that we have shown it on numerous occasions the summarisation of the ashari principles by hafidth an-nawawi was that hard to follow, you’re just wasting my time with shallow arguments! Understand what imam nawawi said then talk. Let me summarise it; the primary stance is tafweed, and secondary is ta’weel and tafweed is always followed only in circumstances ta’weel is used.

The imam wrote many books and you still have sanads going back to his books such as the book called istisaan al-khawd fil ilamul kalaam by Imam Abul Hasan al-Ashari. Shaykh Abdullah shows a full sanad for it going back to the imam [as can be seen on page 33] http://www.aicp.org/Arabic/IlmAlKalamBW.pdf

Now my question; show me one sanad you or your teachers possess going back to any of imam Abul Hasan’s books that is devoid of an ashari within the sanad! Or to make it easier for you; produce me your sanad in hadeeth or any other field that is devoid of having an ashari/maturidi or a sufi in it. Since you’re a claimant of following the Hanafi School!


We accept that statement, there is nothing wrong with. At the same time we ask you a simple question (which your likes couldn't answer before in case of Saaq):
1. Do you accept that Wajh is an attribute of Allah or do you deny it like Mutazilites and Jahmites ?
2. Do you claim that Imam Bukhari didn't attribute Wajh to be an attribute of Allah ?

Firstly my question was not answered, I asked the simple question: does that sound a bit like a JAHMI INFLUENCED statement? Or are you going to state that’s lexically correct I want an answer. [And if you say its ok to do taweel in this area i.e. wajh means dominion, then where is your daleel from nusoos to say its haraam in other areas]. I am trying to understand how you understand this principle.

I do not embark upon the sunnah of the mutazili’s nor the jahmi’s. Regarding the ayaat mutashbihaat I will state what imam Muhammad ibn idrees ash-Shaafi’ said: "I believe in what Allah revealed according to the meaning that Allah willed, and in what the Messenger of Allah conveyed according to the meaning that the Messenger of Allah willed."

As for what Allah has mentioned about himself i.e. issues of sifaat then we accept it and we do not interpret it nor seek the how of it. Its like what abu hanifa has said:


- وله يد ووجه ونفس كما ذكره الله تعالى في القرآن, فما ذكره الله تعالى في القرآن من ذكر الوجه واليد والنفس فهو صفات له بلا كيف.

This is my stance and every ashari’s stance the only time we do ta’weel is when a need arises to answer the deviant mushabiha. Like I said before about your innovating brothers from the hawa wa bida forum or any other forum, who translate saaq to mean shin did I get an answer for that or was there silence from the ahlul bida3 I would like to see you answer it.

I will leave it there since the rest of the questions should have been asked in the other thread. Also there I asked a question I would like to see an answer. Since just quoting imam Qurtabi’s words on this matter isn’t concrete evidence. Since the proof states the contrary!

you also went on to talk about the sifaat the ashari's mention to memorise since all those are established through clear cut proofs that are not mutashabihaat. what i find interesting is your statement:


So you see adding or negating one attribute is serious thing. Anthropomorphists are called kafirs because they attributed something to Allah which he is not. The Jahmites/Mutazilites are kaafirs because they negated something which Allah is.

Now you can tell us kindly how many sifaat does Allah have?

If your reply is just pure questions then I haven’t got time, since time is of the essence.

All mistakes are from me and all truth is from Allah the all knowing the all wise.

Wassalaamu^alaikum

[zulfiqaar_ali]

[/b]
Do the Asharis and Maturidis consider the narrations and reports below by Salaf us Salih giving direction to Allah since they mention that Allah is above/over/Alaa the throne (Arsh)

Above/Over = isn't this direction ?[/b]


[All the narrations are authentic according to the research done on this work by the great hadeeth scholar Badr al-Badr (RH), and are from the sahaabah or those who came soon after]:

“6) Wahb bin Jareer said, ‘The Jahmiyyah are heretics, they think that He has not risen over His Throne.’

13) Ibn al-Mubaarak said, ‘we do not say as the Jahmiyyah say that Allaah is on the earth, rather He has risen over His Throne.’

14) And it was said to him, ‘how should we know our Lord?’ He said, ‘above the Heavens, over/upon (‘alaa) His Throne’

29) Sufyaan ath-Thawree was asked about the verse, “and He is with you wheresoever you are”. He said, ‘His Knowledge.’

64) Sadqa said, ‘I heard Sulaymaan at-Taimee saying, ‘if I were asked, “where is Allaah?” I would say, “above (fee) the heaven”. And if it said, “where was the Throne before the Heaven?” I would say, “over the water.” And if it is said, “where was the Throne before the water?” I would say, “I do not know.”’ [This shows that the question ‘where is Allaah’ was considered allowed by the Salaf, and how could it be otherwise when the Prophet (SAW) himself asked the slave girl, “where is Allaah” as is established firmly in the saheeh of Imaam Muslim. So do not be misguided by the Jahmiyyah of today, Saqqaaf and al-Habbashee and their likes who try to declare the above hadeeth of Muslim as weak, and make out that the above question is a bid’ah, having only the classical Jahmiyyah as their precedents.]

And Imaam Bukhaaree said, ‘and that (i.e. his answer) was because of the saying of Allaah, “and they cannot encompass anything of His Knowledge except what He wills.” i.e. except what He explains.’

66) Muhammad bin Yusuf said (one of the teachers of Bukhaaree), ‘the one who says that Allaah is not over (‘alaa) His Throne is a kaafir. And the one who thinks that Allaah did not speak to Moses is a kaafir.’

103) Ibn Mas’ud (RA) said about His saying, “then He rose over His Throne”, - ‘the Throne is over the water, and Allaah is above (fawqa) the Throne, and He knows what you are upon.’

104) Qataada said about His saying, “and He is Allaah in the Heaven and in the Earth” - ‘the One Who is worshipped in the heaven and in the earth.’”

And now some points translated from 'Sharh Usul I'tiqaad' of al-Laalikaaee
660) Adullaah bin Abbaas said, 'Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement.' (pg.396)

662) Bashr bin Umar said, 'I heard more then one of the Mufassir say about the verse, "The Most Merciful istawaa upon the Throne" - istiwaa means rose above.' (pg.397)

665) Rabee' (one of the teachers of Maalik) was asked about the verse, "The Most Merciful rose over His Throne" - 'how did He rise?' He replied, 'al-istiwaa (rising) is known, and the how is not comprehensible, and from Allaah is the message, and upon the Messenger is the preaching, and upon us is believing.' (pg.397)

670) Maqaatil bin Huyaan said about His saying, "and there is no secret discourse of 3 people except He is the fourth, or of 5 people and He is the sixth" - 'He is above His Throne, and nothing is hidden from His knowledge.' (pg.400)

673) Imaam Ahmad was asked, 'Allaah is above the seventh heaven, above His Throne because that is from His creation, and His power and knowledge are in every place?' And he replied, 'yes, above the Throne and His knowledge is in every place.' (pg.401)

675) Imaam Ahmad was asked about the verse, "and He is with you wheresover you are", and the verse, "there is no secret discourse of 3 people except that he is the fourth.." - and he said, ' (meaning) His Knowledge, He is the Knower of the seen and the unseen, His knowledge encompasses everything, and our Lord is above the Throne without setting limits and giving description , and His Kursi is as the expanse of the heavens and the earth with His Knowledge. ' (pg.402)

Imaam Abdullaah bin Ahmad said, '....I bear witness that You are above Your Throne above the seven heavens. And this is not as the enemies of Allaah say, the heretics.' (Sharhus Sunnah of Imaam Abdullaah)

He also said, 'we know that our Lord is above the seven heavens over the Throne, and we do not say as the Jahmiyyah say that he is here,' and he pointed with his hand to the earth. (Sharhus Sunnah)

And Verily Allaah Knows Best.

[Quotes taken from Sunni Islamic Network Site]

[faqir]

:salam:

It is amazing how, these people jump from one subject to another as we answer each of their questions whilst they ignore all of ours!!

It would appear as though the pseudo-"athari" has reverted to his ahya forum username of Zulfiqaar Ali!


Never mind! :D


Allah swt says:

The Merciful established Himself over the Throne (20:5)

The majority of quotes you have brought [if they are even authentic] are merely repeating this well known ayah of the Qur'an [in Arabic] which has been discussed time and time again on this forum!

Now, let the Ulema adress your specific question!

Imam Nawawi states:

"We believe that {the Merciful established Himself over the Throne} (20:5), and we do not know the reality of the meaning of this nor what is meant by it (la na`lamu haqiqata mi`na dhalika wa al-murada bihi), while we do believe that {There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him} (42:11) and that He is exalted far above the most elevated of created things. That is the way of the Salaf or at least their vast majority, and it is the safest because one is not required to probe into such matters."

Al-Tamimi relates from Imam Ahmad [RH]:

[Istiwa']: It means height/exaltation (`uluw) and elevation (irtifa`). Allah - Most High - is ever exalted (`ali) and elevated (rafi`) without beginning, before He created the Throne. He is above everything (huwa fawqa kulli shay'), and He is exalted over everything (huwa al-`ali `ala kulli shay'). He only specified the Throne because of its particular significance which makes it different from everything else, as the Throne is the best of all things and the most elevated of them. Allah - Most High - therefore praised Himself by saying that He {established Himself over the Throne}, that is, He exalted Himself over it (`alayhi `ala). It is impermissible to say that He established Himself with a contact or a meeting with it. Exalted is Allah above that! Allah is not subject to change, substitution, nor limits, whether before or after the creation of the Throne.

[Ibn Abi Ya`la, Tabaqat al-Hanabila (2:296-297)]

So my dear brother, what is clear is that the quotes you have brought do not necessitate a direction or limit or movement for Allah [may Allah protect us from such anthropomophism]! On the contrary, 'You should know that Quraafi and others have related from ash-Shaafi`ii, Maalik, Ahmad and Abu Hanifa (RAA) the statement in which they proclaimed the kufr of those speaking of direction and having a body (for Allah) and on this statement they are agreed in that.' [Imaam Ibn Hajar al-Haitami RH, Al-Hadramiyyah, p. 224]

Wasalam.

[faqir]

Elsewhere (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=64919&postcount=63) I posted a useful article highlighting the Aqida of the Salaf on placing limits on Allah swt. It may be worthwhile highlighting the relevant sections here [Please see link for complete references]:


The Salaf on Allāh Not Possessing a Limit (Hadd)



It is a leitmotiv of anthropomorphists – much emphasized by Ibn Taymiyya – that Imām Ahmad upheld the doctrine that Allāh [swt] possesses a limit, although Ahmad, like the rest of the Salaf, held the position that Allāh [swt] has no limit. Yet Ibn Taymiyya asserts:

"Al-Qād.ī [Abū Ya‘lā] said that Ahmad asserts in absolute terms that Allāh [swt] had a limit but he negates it in Hanbal’s narration, saying: ‘We believe that Allāh is on the Throne in the manner He wishes and however He wishes, without limit nor description anyone could give or define Him by.’ So he negated the limit that pertains to the description he mentioned, meaning the limit known by creatures… And that is the meaning of Ah.mad’s statement: ‘Allāh I has a limit that only He knows.’"


The latter phrase is in blatant contradiction of what is authentically reported from Imām Ahmad:


[1] by al-Khallāl: “Allāh [swt] has a Throne and the Throne has carriers carrying it while Allāh [swt] is on His Throne although He has no limit, and Allāh I knows best its limit";

[2] by Hanbal ibn Ishāq, the Imām’s cousin: “Allāh [swt] is not to be described more than whatever He described Himself with, or His Prophet described Him with, without limit nor delimitation (bilā h.addin walā ghāya)";

[3] by Haanbal also, as cited above: "We believe that Allāh is on the Throne in the manner He wishes and however He wishes, without limit nor description anyone could give or define Him by."

[4] by Hanbal also, in commentary of the verse ( And He is with you wheresoever you may be) (57:4): "[I.e.] His knowledge. His knowledge encompasses all, and our Lord is over the Throne without limit (bilā hadd) nor description."

[5] by Abū al-Fadl al-Tamīmī: “Allāh I is not subject to change, substitution, nor limits, whether before or after the creation of the Throne."



The same position is narrated from the following:

‘Alī ibn Abī T.ālib t : "He I spoke to Mūsā directly (taklīman) without limbs, without organs, without lips, and without uvula! Glorified is He above the imposition of modality by attributes. Whoever claims that our God has boundaries is ignorant of the Creator Who is worshipped. Whoever says that locations encompass Him is inevitably heading for perplexity and confusion."

Ibn al-Mājishūn: “As for He Who never changes, never ceases to exist, has always existed without beginning, and like unto Whom there is nothing and no one: no one knows "how" He is except He. How could He be known as He is Who has no beginning, does not die, and does not turn to dust? How can the attribute of anything of His possess a limit ( hadd ) or an endpoint ( muntahā ) that anyone might get to know or the extent of which he might define?!"

Al-Tustarī: “I heard the Shaykh Abū ‘Abd al-Rah.mān al-Sulamī say: I heard Mans.ūr ibn ‘Abd Allāh say: I heard Abū al-H.asan al-‘Anbārī say: I heard Sahl ibn ‘Abd Allāh al-Tustarī say: ‘The believers shall look at Him with their eyesights ( bil-absār ) without encompassment ( ihāta) nor attainment ( idrāk ).’"

Ibn Kullāb, Abū H.ātim al-Rāzī, al-Khattābī, Ibn H.ibbān: "The position that He is above the Throne but has no limit (h.add) nor dimension nor body is that of many of the upholders of the Divine Attributes (al-s.ifātiyya) among the followers of Ibn Kullāb and the Ash‘arī Imāms including their early authorities and whoever agrees with them among the jurists,… the h.adīth scholars, and the S.ūfīs... among them Abū H.ātim, Ibn H.ibbān, and Abū Sulaymān al-Khat.t.ābī." On Ibn H.ibbān see also his biographical notice in the chapter on al-Shāfi‘ī.

Abū Dāwūd [al-Tayālisī] said: “Sufyān al-Thawrī, Shu‘ba, Hammād ibn Zayd, Hammād ibn Salama, Sharīk, and Abū ‘Awāna did not hold [that Allāh [swt] had] a limit nor a likeness nor a similitude. They would narrate the hadīths [of the Attributes] without saying ‘how’. If asked, they would answer with whatever was transmitted. And this is also our position."

Ja‘far al-Sādiq: "Whoever claims that Allāh is in ( fī ) something or from (min) something or on ( ‘alā ) something has associated something to Him. For if He were on something He would be carried; and if He were in something He would be limited; and if He were from something He would be created."

Abū al-H.asan al-Ash‘arī: Al-Subkī said: "Al-Ash‘arī and most of the Scholars of kalām have declared as disbelievers any innovator whose innovation constitutes or leads to disbelief. For example, if he claims that the object of his worship possess an image ( sūra ), or a limit ( hadd ) and boundary ( nihāya ) , or that it is permissible to attribute to him movement and stillness."

Mālik ibn Anas: “He is neither ascribed a limit nor likened with anything" (lā yuh.addad walā yushabbah). Ibn al-‘Arabī al-Mālikī said after citing it: “This is a pinnacle of tawh.īd in which no Muslim preceded Mālik.”

Al-Tahāwī in his ‘Aqīda (§38): "He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being confined, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are" (wata‘ālā ‘anil-h.udūdi wal-ghāyāti wal-arkāni wal-a‘d.ā’i wal-adawāt, lā tah.wīhi al-jihātu al-sittu kasā’iri al-mubtada‘āt).

Ibn Khafīf in his ‘Aqīda (§31): "They will see Him without encompassment (ih.āt.a) nor delimitation (tah.dīd) within any given limit (h.add), whether from the front, the back, above, below, right, or left."

Ibn Fūrāk: “The Teacher Abū Bakr ibn Fūrāk also mentioned the above method in interpretation from one of our companions who said: ‘He established Himself in the sense of elevated.’ Then he said that such elevation is not in the sense of distance, nor boundary, nor place in which He is firmly fixed. Rather, he means by it what Allāh meant when He said: ( Have you taken security from Him Who is in the heaven…) (67:16-17), that is, above it, together with the preclusion of limit (h.add) for Him and the fact that He admits neither of being contained by a heavenly stratum nor of being encompassed by an earthly expanse of space. Allāh Almighty was described thus in the evidence transmitted, and so we do not dispute what the evidence said."

Al-Qushayrī: “( He established Himself over the Throne) (7:54; 13:2; 20:5; 25:59; 32:4), however, the One without beginning has no limit (al-qadīm laysa lahu h.add). He ‘established Himself over the Throne,’ however, it is impermissible to attribute to Him proximity with His Essence nor remoteness. He ‘established Himself over the Throne,’ however, the Throne would be the most needful of all things to an iota of connection (al-wis.āl) [with Him] if it were only alive! But it is a lifeless solid, and when did solids ever possess volition? He ‘established Himself over the Throne,’ however, He is the Everlasting Sovereign (al-Samad) without rival, the Unique without limit!"

[Abul Hasan]

:salam:

It is amazing how, these people jump from one subject to another as we answer each of their questions whilst they ignore all of ours!!

It would appear as though the pseudo-"athari" has reverted to his ahya forum username of Zulfiqaar Ali!


.


Wa alaikum salam

You've hit the nail on the head! This vicious slanderer (of many contributors here) has truly exposed himself time and time again with his abhorrent language, digression, racist attitude, "hit and run tactics", not to forget how he is the one who posts under various screen names, like: "Athari" - who claimed to be a "Hanafi" - now he is back with his original screen name: "Zulfiqaar Ali" - who claims to be a "Hanbali" - but when he came here nearly a year ago - he didn't know what Madhhab he belonged to!

One only needs to read his exchanges here from that time to see what I mean. Anyway, Br. Faqir he thinks you have become a Bangladeshi brother, when I clearly know you are not! What an embarrassment these people are becoming for their movement with every post they make they show what a disgrace these pseudo-Salafiyya really are! This is why they have always been known as Hashwiyya!

Anyway, let not the readers forget how "Zulfiqaar" stirred fitna here and how we responded to his twaddle and tittle-tattle last year:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1090&page=3&pp=10

Don't forget the statement he made that Qadiyani's are better than Barelwi's! These people have become adepts at kicking up rows and controversies here - but virtually all of the time they stirred up fitna they have been answered here - Alhamdulillah!

We now know for a fact that this "Athari" has been shouting his mouth off at his Ahwa site, as has Abu Taymiyah (who admitted there today that he is Abu Alqama) - both of whom are full of hatred, rage and enmity for the Sunni contributors here, who have taken the time to refute the Abatil of their Manhaj, Aqeeda and Fiqhi errors! They can continue their rant on Ahwa and the so called "Sunni" press - we have no real time for outbursts and childish taunts and tantrums. They can also complain of being banned there, just as We have been at Ahwa in the past with no warning! May Allah guide them. Amin.


Let's see if they come back again under new screen names! :$

Wassalam

Abul Hasan

[al-Qassam]

these deabtes are so funny.


"hit and run tactics",