Maturidis vs Asharis

[abuhajira]

Assalam o Alaikum WarahmatAllahi

Since we have some really in depth posts here from Alims, I was wondering if any one of you could explain the differences of Matarudiya and Ashariya ... I have read it before.. but I am still looking for some info about it in layman's terms..

Jazak Allah u Khair..

Wassalam o Alaikum

[Saleel]

:salam:

:jazak: for bringing this up... it's something I'd like to learn about too.

Perhaps we can move this to Islam Q&A at the end, though.

:salam:

[salman]

sallamu alaikum

I know The Maturudi Aqidah states Iman is "conviction in the heart and affirmation by the tongue" without adding "action of the limbs" as Asharis do and also the topic of "Increase and Decrease of Iman".

Second there is a difference when it comes to Ikhtiyar and Iktisab (Freedom of choice and acquisiton). I do not know the exact details though but know that there interpretation of Kasb was different. Wallahu A'lam on this one!

There is a book Ilm al‑Kalam by As Shibli which discusses the points. In total they are 6 which are minor.

[Mossy]

Hmm.. I can give my lay person view if you like.. The four main differences I can see seem to be on:

1) Iman: as br salman indicated.. Iman is more of an absolute in the Maturidi position, set at the moment of the profession of belief..
2) Qadr: actions are a part of the creation Allah (swt) in the Ashari position, therefore with regards to kasb, man is the acquirer..
3) Attributes: the Ashari position has some attributes as not being active, eg he does not provide before he creates.. The Maturidi one is that all attributes are active eternally..
4) The hellfire: the Maturidi position is that all with a speck of iman will get to heaven, with the aid of intercession etc.. Ashari position seems to be that not all will necessarily get to heaven as the final decision is that of Allah (swt). Related to this and point 1), even a superbad sin doesn't remove a man from iman and thus from heaven under the Maturidi view..

That's enough rambling today, anyone feel free to correct me.. I can ramble some more if anyone wants too..

ws

Mossy


PS Weren't there 9 differences in Shibli's book?

[Azhar]

I don’t understand why some people have hair splitting debates on whether or not one is considered to be a member of Ahlu Sunnah Wal Jamah if they do not subscribe to the ‘Ashari and Maturidi schools. Aren’t these schools of kalam which the layman is not absolutely required to learn or know about. Isn’t is sufficient to have belief in the basic tenets of faith as outlined in the Gabriel Hadith?

I thought the schools of kalam developed to combat the deviant philosophical ideas that arose in middle generations of Islamic scholarship, and that some of the Imams of Tasawwuf did not fit into either school, but rather had their own Theology which was still consistent with the fundamentals of Islamic belief?

[Mustafa]

I thought the schools of kalam developed to combat the deviant philosophical ideas that arose in middle generations of Islamic scholarship, and that some of the Imams of Tasawwuf did not fit into either school, but rather had their own Theology which was still consistent with the fundamentals of Islamic belief?

As-salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah

Because deviant aqeedas are still out there, and so it becomes neccesary to differentiate the sunnis from them. I don't know anything about Maturidi aqeeda, but basic bare-bones Ashari aqeeda is not hard to learn and understand.

Which Imams of tasawwuf are you referring to?

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Azhar]

Wa 'alaikum assaalam wr wb,

I’m not exactly sure….I will look into it. I agree that Ashari/Maturidi schools define sunni orthodoxy but these labels are often used so cheaply just for the sake of argument. According to sunnipath.com, taqlid in Aqidah is not allowed because one must be convinced of correct beliefs themselves. Given that kalam is a vastly complicated science, how much is the average person required to know? Is it sufficient that one believes in a basic set of points that are equivalent to the Tahawi Aqidah?

Wassalam.

[Goldi]

Wa 'alaikum assaalam wr wb,

I’m not exactly sure….I will look into it. I agree that Ashari/Maturidi schools define sunni orthodoxy but these labels are often used so cheaply just for the sake of argument. According to sunnipath.com, taqlid in Aqidah is not allowed because one must be convinced of correct beliefs themselves. Given that kalam is a vastly complicated science, how much is the average person required to know? Is it sufficient that one believes in a basic set of points that are equivalent to the Tahawi Aqidah?

Wassalam.


I once asked this to Mufti Yusuf and he basically said that for everyday purposes and for most people, you just need to know the bare essentialls like you mentioned (think how in desi lands, you learn, the iman mufassal and the other one and the six kalimas, the tahawi aqidah comes to mind as well). For daily worship and for the average person, it really really is overkill if you start introducing him to the world of Ash'ari and Maturidi schools of Aqeedah.

[faizan]

Assalamu alaikum,

Mufti AbdurRahman's dars on Aqida Tahawiya here (http://www.zamzamacademy.com/page3.html) has a detailed explanation on the differences of two schools.

[AbuZayd]

Assalamu alaykum,

There was an article on this by Shaykh G.F. Haddad was there not? I can't seem to find it. If anyone has access to it could they please post it here as this topic is often brought up by the Salafiyya.


Interestingly Mufti Ebrahim Desai (may Allah preserve him) has made his position clear of late:


http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11948


Question: Please clarify whether the Imaams of Masjid-e-Haraam
(Shuraim & Sudais) belong to Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaat. Which fiqh do
they follow?



The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, that are found today, are made up of
two groups viz. the Ashaa'irah and the Maatudridiyyah. The wahabis
are classified as AHLUL BID'AH and OUT OF the Ahlus Sunnah wal
Jamaa'ah. (Al-Muhannad Pg.46).




In order to ascertain whether the Imams of the Haram are Wahabis or
not, it will be necessary to enquire from them. It is not possible to
pass a ruling without asking the person himself, unless he openly
declares being a wahabi and not from the Ashaa'irah or Maaturidiyyah.
As for their fiqh, some claim that they are ghair-muqallids while
others say they are Hambalis. Here too, it will be necessary to
enquire directly from them

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

CHECKED & APPROVED: Mufti Ebrahim Desai

[AbuZayd]

In "A Flash through the Formation of the Sects" Sheikh Muhammad Zaahid Al-Kautharee mentioned the following:




However, the like of that didn’t happen to his contemporary, The Imam of Guidance, Aboo Mansoor Al-Maatureedee, the Sheikh of the Sunnah from what is beyond the river (maa waraa an-nahr), due to the Sunnah’s complete victory there over the (different) kinds of heretics whereas their mischievous ways didn’t appear in his presence. As a result, he was able to pursue complete balance in his views. So he gave transmitted information its right and logic its (proper) ruling.

And the Maatureedeeyah are the middle path between the Ash’arees and the Mu’tazilah, and very seldom is a Mutasawwif found amongst them. So Al-Ash’aree and Al-Maatureedee are the Imams of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah in eastern regions of the earth and its western regions.

The have countless books. And the difference of opinions found between these two Imams is under the category of ‘expressional differences.’ A number of books have been written about that, and Al-Bayyaadee did well in summarizing them in ‘Ishaaraatul-Muraadi fee ‘Ibaaraatil-Imaami.’ Az-Zabeedee transmitted its text in Sharhul-Ihyaa along with numerous typographical errors.

[Ibrahim Salah]

I have some books in Arabic on the issue of ilm al kaalaam, and they are difficult to understand. It is important that one discusses these subjects with care, in case one falls into error.

Can you let me know where I can read Sheikh Shibli Numani's book on Ilm Kalaam. Is it available in Arabic or english anywhere?

your brother

[ilm_seeker]

As sallamu alaikum

What is 'Kalam'? I have heard of this term before but I didn't understand what the word meant. Please explain the definition of the word, not the actual belief itself.

Wa alaikum as sallam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

"kalâm: Lit. "Discourse," "discussion," "speech"; dialectic, speculative, or systematic theology; theological discourse and the science of tawhîd in general, also called us.ûl al-dîn and al-fiqh al-akbar. In the terminology of the Four Imams it refers to the doctrines and methods of the Mu`tazila and their Qadarî and Jahmî sub-sects. Later, "a science consisting in the proofs of the credal doctrines through rational evidence and the rebuttal of the heretics who strayed from the way of the Salaf and Ahl al-Sunna" (Ibn Khaldûn, Muqaddima). Al-Kalâm also refers to the Qur'an." [Shaykh GF Haddad]

[Mossy]

I have some books in Arabic on the issue of ilm al kaalaam, and they are difficult to understand. It is important that one discusses these subjects with care, in case one falls into error.

Can you let me know where I can read Sheikh Shibli Numani's book on Ilm Kalaam. Is it available in Arabic or english anywhere?

your brother

Hmm.. Have you read Harry Wolfson's book on it? Somewhat.. Weighty reading..

Having studied a dash of western philosophy, I've found the best way to keep myself out of trouble when it comes to theological discussions/investigations is to work from the basis that I'll never know anything.. Aside from the basic tenets of faith of course. The unseen is not susceptible to anything more than a vague interpretation, which should never be relied upon..

I've only Maulana Shibli's book on kalam referenced and not read it myself, but a brief look around shows there was an edition published by Ma'arif press in Karachi (?) in 1976. I'd imagine it would be in urdu most likely as opposed to english/arabic - his other works (sirat ul nabi etc) are all available in that.. I've seen chapters and excerpts translated (into english) in various papers, so I doubt it would be that hard to find if you give it a good rummage..

[phoenix]

Assalamalikum,
JAzakAllahu Khayr for posting this question and thread... i have been trying to find an answer to that question and trying to educate myself on this topic for the past two weeks and although i went out and bought a lot of books on Aqeeda and searched the internet, I couldnt find much...:(

Wassalam

[phoenix]

I have some books in Arabic on the issue of ilm al kaalaam, and they are difficult to understand. It is important that one discusses these subjects with care, in case one falls into error.

Can you let me know where I can read Sheikh Shibli Numani's book on Ilm Kalaam. Is it available in Arabic or english anywhere?

your brother


I am reading Moulana Shibli NAumani's book on Abu Hanifa right at present and it is in English. It has a lot on Fiqu and Kalam too and it is in an Excellent book. The book is titled "Abu Hanifa- Life and Works" and it was translated by M. Hadi Hussein in English. I live in India so i got it in Hyderabad but the book is widely available. I havent read the one on Kalam (only). I have read half the book but only once have i come across the Maturidi and Asha'ri and that too it was only one sentence! "This gave rise to the Science of Kalam , which in due course acquired such a high status that important Imams, as, for example, Ash'ari and Abu Mansoor Maturidi, were proud of their contribution to it."

But may I add that it is really an excellent book. Shibli NAumani has written a lot of books on Islamic Scholars and and he does a lot of research. in this book too he has done a lot of research and has quoted what is said in all the books he has read... The language of M.HAdi Hussein is also very good. I am still reading the Kalam section and yes may i mention that the Fiqu section is larger than the Kalam section...

[hanbali]

I once asked this to Mufti Yusuf and he basically said that for everyday purposes and for most people, you just need to know the bare essentialls like you mentioned (think how in desi lands, you learn, the iman mufassal and the other one and the six kalimas, the tahawi aqidah comes to mind as well). For daily worship and for the average person, it really really is overkill if you start introducing him to the world of Ash'ari and Maturidi schools of Aqeedah.

I am not sure if Mufti Yusuf meant the same thing, But I got this reply from a Shaykh discouraging from getting into this, Its pretty confusing though, I think what he meant was not to worry about it and if you follow the quran and sunnah (my comments: by learning from scholars of your fiqh, not on your own!!) you should be okay...... :cheesygri

--
Question:
Does anyone who does not follow the -Asha'ari and Matureedi approach to Aqeedah- not from Ahle-Sunna Wal-Jamah? Many groups say that only these two groups are part of ahle-sunnah , rest are not. Jazakallah-Khair.

Answer:
By Sheikh `Abd Allah Umar al-Dumayjî
Professor at Umm al-Qurâ University

The Ash`arîs and Mâturîdîs are Muslims that approach Islamic beliefs using scholastic theology.

Al-Ghazâlî, a major Ash`arî scholar, told us of his own experience in theology. He says: “Someone may think one of the advantages of theology is that it will uncover facts as they really are, but theology can never fulfill this noble task .Falsehood and error are more likely to be uncovered than truth.” He continues, “If you hear this from a hadîth scholar or Hashawî, (he means Ahl al-Sunnah), you think that people aggress against what they do not know. So listen to this coming from someone who is experienced in theology, who has studied it thoroughly to the utmost possible extent, moreover, exceeded that by acquiring other sciences that are associated with the study of theology, only to arrive at the conclusion finally that the path to the truth in this way is blocked.” (from Ihyâ’ `Ulûm al-Dîn by al-Ghazâlî)

Here is what Abu `Abd Allah Muhammad b. Umar al-Râzi, a leading Ash`arî theologian, wrote in his book on forms of enjoyment:

The outcome of rational undertakings is incapacity
Those so engaged mostly chase after error.

Our souls are in bewilderment of our bodies,
And the consequence of all our droning is injury and harm.

We have gained nothing from our lifetimes spent in research
Except a collection of idle talk.

Thereafter he said: “I have investigated the methods of the theologians and philosophers and found that they neither remedy any problems nor fulfill any needs. I found that the best method is that of the Qur’ân. On the one hand, I read that it makes assertions by saying: ‘The Beneficent is mounted on the throne’ and: ‘Unto Him rises the good word.’ Then, on the other hand, I read that it negates matters by saying: ‘There is nothing like unto Him’ and: ‘Knowledge does not comprehend Him.’ Whoever has had the experience that I have had will have come to know what I know.”

Al-Shahrastânî writes:

By my life, I have attended all the discourses

And explored all ends of those teachings

Yet I have achieved nothing but to place a confused hand

Upon my chin, or to regretfully tap my teeth.

Abu al-Ma`âlî al-Juwaynî , another leading Ash`arî scholar, said : “ My colleagues, do not involve yourselves in theology. If I had known it will lead me to where I am now, I would never have gotten involved in it.” On his deathbed, he said: “I had entered into a deep ocean and left the Muslims and their knowledge behind. I had entered into what they forbade me from. Now if Allah does not shower me with His Mercy, then it is woe for Ibn al-Juwaynî! I hereby die onto my mother’s creed.” It is possible he might have said: “… on the creed of the old women of Nîsâbûr.”

Such statements are numerous. They regretted the long time they spent gaining nothing but suspicion and confusion.

The way to attain true, correct, and certain faith is to go to the divine source; Allah’s book and His Prophet’s (peace be upon him) Sunnah. These sources are the true and clear path for believers, and they alone provide certainty in faith.

We must go back to the creed of the earliest believers (the Salaf), the creed of the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) and his Companions and those who followed their path up to today.

We must leave theology alone, as well as the Ash`ariyyah , Mu`tazilah, and other sects.

Al-Amîr Muhammad b. Isma`îl al-San`anî, responded to al-Shahristan’s poem by saying:

It is because you neglected the discourses of the Prophet

And those of knowledge who met him.


For anyone who follows the guidance of Muhammad,

Will never be found regretting his time.

Taking into consideration the dangers posed by scholastic theology and what it leads to of suspicion and confusion, it has been forbidden by the scholars. The same can be said for the scholastic theologians of the Mâturîdî school.

Abû Yûsuf said: “Whoever seeks religion through theology will become an atheist.”

Al-Shâfi`î said: “My rule on theologians is to have them beaten by palm fronds and shoes and have them paraded before the tribes with the announcement: “This is the punishment on who dispenses with Allah’s book and the Sunnah for the sake of theology.” Then, he continued: “I have read some things written by the theologians that I had never thought a Muslim could utter. If a person falls into every sin except polytheism, then it would be better for him than to engage in theology.”

The remedy for this sickness is the one given by our Prophet (peace be upon him) who used to begin his night prayer by saying: “O Allah the Lord of Gabriel, Michel and Israfîl, Creator of the heavens and the Earth, it is You who will judge between Your servants in those matters about which they have differed. Guide me to the truth about which they differ. You indeed guide Your servants to a straight path.” [Sahîh Muslim: 770]

The safest approach is to adhere to Allah’s book and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and to follow the path of the pious predecessors – the Companions, and those who followed them – and to avoid all innovations that the Prophet (peace be upon him) warned us against when he said: “Each and every innovation is a deviation.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) guided us to our salvation when he said about the saved people that they are: “…those who are emulating me and my Companions”

He said: “I have left among you two things, if you hold to them firmly, you will never go astray: Allah’s book and my Sunnah.”

He said: “Hold fast my Sunnah and Sunnah of the Rightly Guided Caliphs who will come after Seize onto it with your molars. And avoid innovations, as each and every innovation is a deviation.”

May Allah guide me and you to the right path.

[hanbali]

The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, that are found today, are made up of two groups viz. the Ashaa'irah and the Maatudridiyyah.

Shaykh Musa Furber (hanbali scholar) said: "As for "Ahl Al-Sunnah", anyone who stays within the Ash`ari, Maturidi, and Athari approaches to `aqidah should be considered Ahl Al-Sunnah"

[Mossy]

Mufti Desai made a slip up saying that.. I hope.

Al-Ghazali wrote a book with an interesting title called Iljam al-awamm 'an
ilm al-kalam. I imagine if you search for it on google and read arabic you can have a flick through. It's not too long, although their has been quite a degree of disputation about it (apparently his last work..).

[AbuZayd]

Shaykh Musa Furber (hanbali scholar) said: "As for "Ahl Al-Sunnah", anyone who stays within the Ash`ari, Maturidi, and Athari approaches to `aqidah should be considered Ahl Al-Sunnah"

I recall Sh. Abu Ja'far al Hanbali from www.htspub.com mentioning that the Atharis generally tended to be lumped in with the Asharis and Maturidis.

But we all agree that the "Salafi" Creed differs from the Hanbali/Athari Creed do we not?

In this regard the forums of www.htspub.com are brilliant.

[Zaid 'Abdur-Rahman]

:bism:

Anyone know of any texts or websites that accurately depict Ashari and Maturidi Aqidah?

:jazak:



Wasalaam,
Zaid

[Mossy]

Well, I've merged it into the thread asking where they differed.. You may wish to look at the zamzamacademy.com talks on Aqida Tahawiya.

[talib al-habib]

salaams

I think the general consensus building on this thread is corrct, which is that the differences between Ashari and Maturidi aqida are minimal and not really a matter that should concern anyone except scholars. In terms of what we should be worried about - our meeting with Allah - then what is contained in the hadith of gibril is sufficient: '[iman is] that you believe in Allah, the Last Day, the prophets, the angels, the scriptures, and fate - that good and evil are from Allah.' Therefter it is about actualising faith in the form of spiritual certainty, good actions and developing purity of heart.

I have just finished translating a simple aqida text - the Risala an-Nafiyya of Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Farfur, which furnishes the doctrinal beliefs of the Ahl as-Sunnah - both A and M - along with basic textual and rational proofs. I'm just getting it checked and then insha-allah it will be up on my [not-yet-set-up] website: www.habibiyya.org if anyone wants to have a read. Give me about a month... ;)

The six points mentioned in the hadith of gibril have been expanded on by Imam Tahawi in his `aqida, which encompasses the basic doctrinal beliefs of the Ahl as-Sunnah in concise form. Both Ashari and Maturidi `aqida may be found within it, though the Maturidi's trace their doctrinal school back to Abu Hanifa's own formulation. Consequently, most Hanafi's are Maturidi - though honestly the fact that few if any of us can tell the difference between the two schools should be evidence enough of the insignificance of the divergences. Generally, one should avoid poking one's nose into doctrinal disputes, as it seldom leads to any spiritual benefit. Our time is probably better spent on purification of the heart at the hands of a spiritual master than delving into qadr, iktisab and the like. The exception to this is, of course, the scholars of kalam, whose duty it is to clearly define the boundaries of Islamic belief and cleanse it of the bid`ah of incorrect doctrine. This is why the great Imams such as Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari and Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Maturidi accomplished thier work.

[Yusuf]

From 'ask imam':
Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them("A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1. A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah

2. A- Speech (Kalaam) of Allah can be heard
M- Kalaam of Allah cannot be heard; what is heard is that which points to it.

3. A- Hikmah meaning "perfection" is not a quality of Allah
M- It is a sifah of Allah

4. A- Both the Ridha(Pleasure) and Irada (intention) of Allah is connected to everything.
M- The Irada of Allah is connected to everything, not the Ridha

5. A- "Takleef ma laa yutaaq"(Burdening more than is bearable) is Jaiz
M- Not Jaiz

6. A-Laws connected to "Takleef" can only be received directly from Nass
M- Some such laws can be grasped by intellect
7. A-Forgiving Kufr is Jaiz Aqlan not Sam'an
M- Not Jaiz

8. A- Possible for a mu'min to remain in Jahannum forever and for a kaafir to remin in Jannah forever
M- Not possible

9. A- Being a male is not a condition for being a Nabi
M- Being a male is a condition

[Ansari]

I am reading Moulana Shibli NAumani's book on Abu Hanifa right at present and it is in English. It has a lot on Fiqu and Kalam too and it is in an Excellent book. The book is titled "Abu Hanifa- Life and Works" and it was translated by M. Hadi Hussein in English. I live in India so i got it in Hyderabad but the book is widely available. I havent read the one on Kalam (only). I have read half the book but only once have i come across the Maturidi and Asha'ri and that too it was only one sentence! "This gave rise to the Science of Kalam , which in due course acquired such a high status that important Imams, as, for example, Ash'ari and Abu Mansoor Maturidi, were proud of their contribution to it."

But may I add that it is really an excellent book. Shibli NAumani has written a lot of books on Islamic Scholars and and he does a lot of research. in this book too he has done a lot of research and has quoted what is said in all the books he has read... The language of M.HAdi Hussein is also very good. I am still reading the Kalam section and yes may i mention that the Fiqu section is larger than the Kalam section...
Salaam Alaikom

Is it this book: http://www.azharacademy.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=158 ?

Could you also tell me who exactly Allamah Shibli Nu'mani is? Did he wrote some good books?

[Zaid 'Abdur-Rahman]

:bism:

From 'ask imam':
Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them("A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1. A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah

2. A- Speech (Kalaam) of Allah can be heard
M- Kalaam of Allah cannot be heard; what is heard is that which points to it.

3. A- Hikmah meaning "perfection" is not a quality of Allah
M- It is a sifah of Allah

4. A- Both the Ridha(Pleasure) and Irada (intention) of Allah is connected to everything.
M- The Irada of Allah is connected to everything, not the Ridha

5. A- "Takleef ma laa yutaaq"(Burdening more than is bearable) is Jaiz
M- Not Jaiz

6. A-Laws connected to "Takleef" can only be received directly from Nass
M- Some such laws can be grasped by intellect
7. A-Forgiving Kufr is Jaiz Aqlan not Sam'an
M- Not Jaiz

8. A- Possible for a mu'min to remain in Jahannum forever and for a kaafir to remin in Jannah forever
M- Not possible

9. A- Being a male is not a condition for being a Nabi
M- Being a male is a condition

Interesting...
I believe in a little of both. Here's a breakdown (If I agree with the Ashari viewpoint, I put an "A" and vice versa)


1 No clue
2 A
3 A
4 Who cares? That's for Allah azza wajjal to know.
5 Definitely M
6 M
7 A
8 M *
9 A

As for number 8, lets look at it. The Ashariyyah position, as dictated above, contains a logical fallacy. It mentions a mu'min, i.e. a true believer, staying in jahannam for all eternity. This raises two points: The Mu'min did something truly heinous against the law of Allah, and was unforgivable save by the Mercy of Allah, OR, he did something heinous and simply did not repent. Now, would a mu'min intentionally do something heinous (mass rape, mass murder, idolatry, etc), and NOT repent? Methinks not (and Allahu Alim). However, I disagree with the Maturidi side a little, as well: If a kafir (weather a Jew, Christian, etc) is righteous, and has no knowledge of Islam, he will go to Jannah, if Allah Wills. And before the lot of you get your panties in a twist, this is a subject that the scholars agree on, including Fakhr Ad-Din Ar-Razi, author of the best Tafsir, and a far better scholar than any of us. The relevant ayat of the Qur'an HAVE NOT been abrogated. I could go into this further, but I've said all that is relevant to the subject at hand.


Wasalaam,
Zaid

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

I would, Insha'Allah like to comment on Akhi Zaids remarks on point 8. Firstly, it should be known that i am Maturidi to the bone, and so i agree with them. The Ashari position states that Allah can do what He wills, without anything stopping Him. He is not bound by Universal laws. In simple terms it means that we cannot say "Allah has to do such and such" because the fact is simple, Allah has to do nothing that He doesnot wish to do. Based on the Qur'anic verses we do know that Allah will send the righteous to Heaven but IF HE WILLED not to (And this is just a scenario) there is no one to question Him and He is all powerful. Imam Al Harmayn (A Ashari) gives this example:

-- Similarly, with a person who is highly respected within His family, if he is generous with his son and provides all his needs, and the son honors him, respects him and seeks his approval and strvies to earn it, therefore, that person is not owed in regard for his assistance anymore then he has already obtained from the beneficence that has accrued to his credit.

If then this is the situation with a person who provides services to another like himself, a servant who tried to compare his own acts of service with Gods bounteous generosity to him in any single instance would find the beneficence of God completely acquitted and fulfilled in regard to any of his own good deeds.

[...]

How could the servant, who is already immensed in the favors bestowed by God, be owed additional rewards for the small trifling deeds that are not alreadythe result of Gods overwhelming genersity?

(Kitab Al Irshad Ila Qawati Al Adilla Fi Usil Al Itiqad)


Sallam

[Strive4Allah]

Allama shibli nomani was a great alim..never come accross anyof his books but i guess he has written some great books..or am I mixing him up with molanaa manzur nomani? he has written some wonderful books

[Mossy]

From 'ask imam':
Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them("A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1. A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah

2. A- Speech (Kalaam) of Allah can be heard
M- Kalaam of Allah cannot be heard; what is heard is that which points to it.

3. A- Hikmah meaning "perfection" is not a quality of Allah
M- It is a sifah of Allah

4. A- Both the Ridha(Pleasure) and Irada (intention) of Allah is connected to everything.
M- The Irada of Allah is connected to everything, not the Ridha

5. A- "Takleef ma laa yutaaq"(Burdening more than is bearable) is Jaiz
M- Not Jaiz

6. A-Laws connected to "Takleef" can only be received directly from Nass
M- Some such laws can be grasped by intellect
7. A-Forgiving Kufr is Jaiz Aqlan not Sam'an
M- Not Jaiz

8. A- Possible for a mu'min to remain in Jahannum forever and for a kaafir to remin in Jannah forever
M- Not possible

9. A- Being a male is not a condition for being a Nabi
M- Being a male is a condition

How intriguing. I wonder why they didn't list the other three :)

Just in case anyone is wondering about 1), I think it can be kinda translated thus:

1. A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
The action of bringing stuff into creation is an of the active (filiyah) attribute of Allah (swt) - ie not passive and is narrated (?)
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah
The action of bringing stuff into creation a part of the passive (zatia?) attribute of begininglessness (cool word)

It's basically point 3) that I originally referenced..

5/6 are interesting - surely these have a direct and pretty major impact on fiqh?

[Zaid 'Abdur-Rahman]

:bism:




5/6 are interesting - surely these have a direct and pretty major impact on fiqh?


My thoughts exactly.

I'm actually surprised that those two tenets didn't start a big ashari/maturidi rift along the same vein of the madhhab rift we had back in the ye olden tymes of the Ummah. They are downplayed as minor, but they are glaringly striking in my opinion.


Care to begin a discussion, insha'Allah, on the possible ramifications in fiqh and aqeedah, akhi Mossy? ;)


Wasalaam,
Zaid

[Mossy]

I'm off on holiday next week, so I'll leave it to someone more qualified and learned than myself to initiate such a discussion should it be desired for the time being.

However, I would imagine 2:286 would be a good starting point for 5 and for 6, the hadith of the crazy man, sleepin man and lil lad, along with principles such as istislah/maslahah (you should like those ;)) with reference to takleef of the mukallaf and whether the parameters of this must stay fixed and indeed their relation to principles such as this when determining the formations of fardh/wajib which fall within the boundaries of this obligation. It would also do well to look at matter with a careful eye - for example a common condition when considering maslahah is that it cannot conflict with any clear nass, which would mean..

It's bedtime :)

[Mossy]

No takers?

[Djibril]

How intriguing. I wonder why they didn't list the other three :)

Just in case anyone is wondering about 1), I think it can be kinda translated thus:

1. A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
The action of bringing stuff into creation is an of the active (filiyah) attribute of Allah (swt) - ie not passive and is narrated (?)
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah
The action of bringing stuff into creation a part of the passive (zatia?) attribute of begininglessness (cool word)

It's basically point 3) that I originally referenced..

5/6 are interesting - surely these have a direct and pretty major impact on fiqh?

assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh,

isn't more like..

1) takwin is an attribute of action, is not eternal and enters into existence
2) takwin is from the attributes of eternity

wallahu alam

[Djibril]

assalam alaikoum wa rahmatoullah wa barakatouh,

Here is the full text by sheikh kamal bacha explaining the differences between the two schools :


رسالة في الاختلاف بين الأشاعرة والماتريدية
للمحقق العلامة شيخ الإسلام ابن كمال باشا
وقد طبعت هذه الرسالة باستانبول ضمن مجموعة فيها خمس رسائل، سنة 1304هـ، ص 57-59.
قال الأستاذ: اعلم أن الشيخ أبا الحسن الأشعري إمام أهل السنة ومقدمهم، ثم الشيخ أبو منصور الماتريدي، وإن أصحاب الشافعيّ وأتباعه تابعون له، أي لأبي الحسن الأشعري في الأصول وللشافعيّ في الفروع. وإن أصحاب أبي حنيفة تابعون للشيخ أبو منصور الماتريدي في الأصول، ولأبي حنيفة في الفروع، كما أفادنا بعض مشايخنا رحمه الله تعالى، ولا نزاع بين الشيخين وأتباعه إلا في اثني عشر مسألة.
الأولى: قال الماتريدي: التكوين صفة أزلية قائمة بذات الله تعالى كجميع صفاته، وهو غير المكوّن، ويتعلق بالمكوّن من العالم، وكل جزء منه بوقت وجوده كما أن إرادة الله تعالى أزلية يتعلق بالمرادات بوقت وجودها، وكذا قدرته تعالى الأزلية مع مقدوراتها.
وقال الأشعريّ: إنها صفة حادثة غير قائمة بذات الله تعالى، وهي من الصفات الفعلية عنده لا من الصفات الأزلية، والصفات الفعلية كلها حادثة كالتكوين والإيجاد، ويتعلق وجود العالم بخطاب كن.
المسألة الثانية
قال الماتريدي: كلام الله تعالى ليس بمسموع، وإنما المسموع الدال عليه.
وقال الأشعريّ: مسموع كما هو المشهور من حكاية موسى عليه السلام.
قال ابن فورك: المسموع عند قراءة القارئ شيئين: صوت القارئ وكلام الله تعالى.
وقال القاضي الباقلاني: كلام الله تعالى غير مسموع على العادة الجارية، ولكن يجوز أن يسمع الله تعالى من شاء من خلقه على خلاف قياس العادة من غير واسطة الحروف والصوت.
قال أبو إسحاق الإسفرايني ومن تبعه: أن كلام الله تعالى غير مسموع أصلا، وهو اختيار الشيخ أبي منصور الماتريدي كذا في البداية.
المسألة الثالثة
قال الماتريدي: صانع العالم موصوف بالحكمة سواء كانت بمعنى العلم أو بمعنى الإحكام.
وقال الأشعري: إن كانت بمعنى العلم فهي صفة أزلية قائمة بذات الله تعالى، وإن كانت بمعنى الإحكام فهي صفة حادثة من قبيل التكوين، لا يوصف ذات الباري بها.
المسألة الرابعة
قال الماتريدي: إن الله يريد بجميع الكائنات جوهرا أو عرضا طاعة أو معصية، إلا أن الطاعة تقع بمشيئة الله وإرادته وقضائه وقدرته ورضائه ومحبته وأمره، وإن المعصية تقع بمشيئة الله تعالى وإرادته وقضائه لا برضائه ومحبته وأمره.
وقال الأشعريّ: إن رضاء الله تعالى ومحبته شامل بجميع الكائنات كإرادته.
المسألة الخامسة
تكليف ما لا يطاق ليس بجائز عند الماتريدي، وتحميل مالا يطاق عنده جائز، وكلاهما جائزان عند الأشعريّ
المسألة السادسة
قال الماتريدي: بعض الأحكام المتعلقة بالتكليف معلوم بالعقل، لأن العقل آلة يدرك بها حسن بعض الأشياء وقبحها، وبها يدرك وجوب الإيمان وشكر المنعم، وإن المعرف والموجب هو الله تعالى، لكن بواسطة العقل كما أن الرسول معروف الوجوب والموجب الحقيقي هو الله تعالى لكن بواسطة الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى قال: لا عذر لأحد في الجهل بخالقه، ألا يرى خلق السموات والأرض ؟! ولو لم يبعث رسولا، لوجب على الخلق معرفته بعقولهم.
وقال الأشعري: لا يجب شيء ولا يحرم إلا بالشرع لا بالعقل، وإن كان للعقل أن يدرك حس بعض الأشياء، وعند الأشعريّ جميع الأحكام المتعلقة بالتكليف تلقاه بالسمع.
المسألة السابعة
قال الماتريدي: قد يسعد الشقيّ وقد يشقى السعيد.
وقال الأشعريّ: لا اعتبار بالسعادة والشقاوة إلا عند الخاتمة والعاقبة.
المسألة الثامنة
العفو عن الكفر ليس بجائز.
وقال الأشعريّ: يجوز عقلا لا سمعا.
المسألة التاسعة
قال الماتريدي: تخليد المؤمنين في النار، وتخليد الكافر في الجنة لا يجوز عقلا، ولا سمعا.
وعند الأشعري: يجوز.
المسألة العاشرة
قال بعض الماتريدية: الاسم والمسمى واحد.
وقال الأشعريّ: بالتغاير بينهما وبين التسمية، ومنهم من قسم الاسم إلى ثلاثة أقسام: قسم عينه، وقسم غيره، وقسم ليس بعينه ولا بغيره، والاتفاق على أن التسمية وغيرها وهي ما قامت بالمسمى، كذا بداية الكلام.
المسألة الحادية عشر
قال الماتريدي: الذكورة شرط في النبوة، حتى لا يجوز أن يكون الأنثى نبيا.
وقال الأشعريّ: ليست الذكورة شرطا فيها، والأنوثة لا تنافيها، كذا في بداية الكلام.
المسألة الثانية عشر
قال الماتريدي: فعل العبد يسمى كسباً لا خلقاً، وفعل الحق يسمى خلقاً لا كسباً، والفعل يتناولهما.
وقال الأشعري: الفعل عبارة عن الإيجاد حقيقة، وكسب العبد يسمى فعلاً بالمجاز، وقد تفرد القادر خلقاً وما لا يجوز تفرد القادر به كسباً.
تمت الرسالة الشريفة لابن كمال باشا رحمه الله تعالى

[slave of allah]

salaam

recently i went for a 2 day aqeedah course at azhar academy in london. it was held by mufti abdul rahman ibn yusuf (authour of fiqh ul imaam). alhamdulillah it was very beneficial. the point i wanted to raise was he said in reality there was no real differences between the two just a different methodoligies. eg regarding imaan the only reason why one said action is part of imaan and there other said it wasnt was due to certain groups within their locations. the khawrij considered a big sin to be kufr so the imam ashari said imaan is only confession and conviction to differintiate. mufti saab also gave us other examples but i have seem to forgotten them

[Djibril]

salaam

recently i went for a 2 day aqeedah course at azhar academy in london. it was held by mufti abdul rahman ibn yusuf (authour of fiqh ul imaam). alhamdulillah it was very beneficial. the point i wanted to raise was he said in reality there was no real differences between the two just a different methodoligies. eg regarding imaan the only reason why one said action is part of imaan and there other said it wasnt was due to certain groups within their locations. the khawrij considered a big sin to be kufr so the imam ashari said imaan is only confession and conviction to differintiate. mufti saab also gave us other examples but i have seem to forgotten them

assalam alaikoum wa rahmatoullah wa barakatou,

akhi there are differences that are real too.
mufti abdul rahman ibn yusuf said that imam as-subki said that there are 13 difference between ash'aris and maturidis, 7 are only differences of formulation but 6 are real differences.

(note that sheikh kamal basha said there are 12 differences, not 13)

[Insaniac]

Would someone do us who don't understand arabic a big favour and translate the text by shaikh Kamal..?

[faqir]

Here is a rough translation of the introduction:





A study of the differences between the Ashariya and the Maturidiya by Sheikh Ibn Kamal Pasha.






This study was published in Istanbul among a collection of 5 studies in 1304 Hijri.

The Ustad said :

Know that Abu Al-Hassan Al-Ashari is one of the Imams of Ahlus-Sunnah as is Shaykh Abu Mansour AL Maturidi.

The followers of Al Shafi'i follow Al Ashari in regards the fundamentals and Al Shafi'i in the branches. Abu Hanifa's followers follow Al Maturidi in regard to fundamentals and follow Abu Hanifa in the branches, as concluded by some of our scholars [may Allah swt have mercy upon them].

The two Imams are on agreement except on 12 issues:





[Hopefully the experts will do the rest]

[Djibril]

Would someone do us who don't understand arabic a big favour and translate the text by shaikh Kamal..?

assalam alaikoum wa rahmatoullah wa barakatouh,

Knowing arabic isn't enough on this one akhi, the article is heavy. You need some theological formation.
I asked a brother who is a native arabic speaker about the 3 remaining differences, he couldn't understand some sentences...

1)maturidi : "the name and the named one are one and the same"
ash'ari "there is a difference between the name, the named one and the nomination"
(note that there is disagreement inside the ash'ari school on this question. Al-ash'ari's own students didn't agree with each other on this. In his treatise about divine names, imam ar-razi says that most ash'aris hold the opinion that there is no difference. The opinion that there is a difference is imam al-ghazali's, and ar-razi gives his preference to it. However, from the opinion reported in the text of Ibn Kamal Basha, it would seem that most latter ash'ari scholars followed al-ghazali and ar-razi on this matter)
The sheikh goes on saying that "some ash'aris divided the name in three : a) qismu 3aynihi b) qismu ghayrihi c) qismun laysa bi 3aynihi wa lâ bi ghayrihi"

2)maturidi : one who is unhappy can become happy and one who is happy can become unhappy
ash'ari : we can only take into consideration happiness and unhappy at the end of one's life, and more especially in the hereafter.

3) the last one has to do with kasb (earning)

fi3lu al 3abdi yusamà kasban là khalqan wa fi3lu al 7aqqi yusamà khalqan là kasban wa alfi3lu yatanàwaluhumà, al fi3lu 3ibàratun 3ani al yjàdi 7aqyqatan, wa kasbu al 3abdi yusamà fi3lan bi lmajàz, wa qad tafarrasa al qàdiru khalqanwa mà là yajuzu tafarrada al qàdiru bihi kasban

"The act of the servant is called kasb (earning), not khalq,
the act of the God is called khalq, not kasb
Act is the expression of giving birth in the reality, the kasb of the servant is called act metaphorically, Allah is the only one to do it."
Sorry the last sentence remains untranslated...

[Brother]

Is there is a tree diagram available showing all the sects "per say" from the time of Prophet SAW to now.. Something that will show, where current days deobandi's, barelwi's, salafi/wahabis, syrian hanafis etc etc go back to.

A Heirarichal diagram which shows, major madahibs and thier mapping to Asharis, Maturidis, Khwarij's and even bring the shias into the picture i.e Jaafaris etc.

Is there one available? Or may I ask, can one of the knowledgable members of the forum create one?

Jazakallah Khair!!