How to refute this salafi argument?

[Cloud_Strife]

Assalamu alaykum.

A lot of salafis will say regarding good bidah, why would you do it if Islam is perfect and has no shortcomings? They are basically trying to imply we believe the religion is incomplete or has shortcomings.

How do we address these kinds of arguments? Islam is complete, has been completed already in Prophet SAW lifetime. It is perfect; it has no flaws.
So they ask if it has no flaws why add things to it?

Can anyone offer some good reasons for this?

One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.

Any other arguments? Jazak Allah khair!

[Hafiz Gee]

Salam

i know one scholar who classified bidah as those for the sake of islam and those introduced as a part of islam.

for example the womens section in masjids or lines (for saffs) are things which are not understood to be a part of islam only things done for the sake of islam, that is things which make practicing the din easier.

this video may also shed some light.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoEhaGHn7Vs

[Cloud_Strife]

Jazak Allah khair.

I have a real slow internet connection so I was thinking if someone could write out some things. I will try to see this vid when I can.

[Cloud_Strife]

If someone is insisting the world is flat because he sees to be flat and the other is saying no, do you think the former will change his mind because he/she purely relies on one faculty.
Even after proving the necessity of schools of Jurisprudance, they will resort to qualify or every single person in the same calibre as that of a capeble scholar.
Anyway go through the link below and take it from there.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?10524-Bibliography-Madhaahib-Taqleed-amp-Ijtihaad

Anything specific there I should look at to address the argument they make that if Islam is perfect why add so and so to it?
Jazak Allah khair

[maneatinglizard]

:salam:

If Islam was perfected in the sense that they understand it, then the Hadith sciences are a bid`a and should be abandoned, the university system is a bid`a and so Madinah University should be abandoned, reading the books of Shaikh Ibn Taymiyyah :rahma: is a bid`a and should be abandoned, etc.

Clearly, there is a defect in their understanding of the meaning of bid`a.

[Sulaiman84]

:salam:


Whoever innovates something reprehensible in this matter of ours that does not belong to it is rejected.

(Bukhari, Muslim)


"In this matter" i.e. religion - Islam. Defining "innovation," Qadi Iyad writes, "Whoever innovates an opinion in Islam that does not have any manifest (zahir) or obscure (khafi) or clear derived substantiation from the Qur'an and Sunna, then it is rejected."

Islam was preferred as a religion, and anyone who attempts to bring into it an unsubstantiated idea has undertaken a disliked practice - disliked because of the implication that Islam is incomplete or defective, and hence has need for some innovation. As for the words "that does not belong to it," they indicate that innovating something that is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunna (i.e. "which belongs to it") cannot be considered reprehensible. Imam Shafi'i said, "Any innovation that violates the Qur'an or Sunna or a statement [of the Companion - athar] or the consensus (ijma') [of Muslim scholars] is a deviance. And whatever good that has been innovated and does not contravene any of the above is not reprehensible" (Mirqat al-mafatih 1:366, 368).

Thus, according to Islamic law, bid'a is any new way in worship that is done with the intention of attaining more reward, but not proven from the words or the actions - explicit or tacit -of the Messenger :saw: or the four caliphs, Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, and 'Ali :anhum: , in spite of them having had the ability to do so (Shatibi, Al-I'tisam).

The Messenger of Allah :saw: strongly warned his Umma against innovating something into Islam saying, "When a people innovate something new into their religion, a sunna to that amount is lifted from them. Hence, holding fast to a sunna is superior to introducing a new innovation (Ahmad).

This is why extreme caution is required in the issue of bid'a. When there is doubt about whether or not something is a reprehensible innovation, it is superior to leave the action. Ibn 'Abidin, the great Syrian jurist, writes, "When there is confusion between the ruling of something being a sunna or bid'a, it is preferable that one abandon the [possible] sunna than enact the [possible] innovation" (Radd al-muthar 1:431)

New methods invented to fulfill human needs have nothing to do with bid'a, because they are not introduced as an act of worship or with the intention of earning reward. Hence, they are permissible as long as they do not violate any command of the Shari'a.

It also can be understood from the above explanation of bid'a that many things were not needed in the time of Allah's Messenger :saw: , but were established later to achieve a religious objective, cannot be included in the realm of bid'a (in the legal sense) either, [even though they may be considered bid'a in the literal sense, i.e., "an innovation" or "something new." Many times the later is intended when referencing a certain matter to be a good or bad bid'a, since every action legally considered a bid'a can only be reprehensible].

Some innovations that do not violate the Qur'an or the Sunna include the establishment of of madrasas with their organized curricula and classrooms and centers and institutions for spreading Islam (da'wa). Also included among these commendable innovations is the codification of sciences like Arabic grammar, syntax, etymology, rhetoric, and literature to better understand and interpret the Qur'an and hadith; the study of philosophy [or other relevant subjects] to repudiate heretical groups; and the use of certain modern weapons for the defense of Muslims.

Examples of [legally] reprehensible innovation include [unnecessary] decoration of masjids or the custom of shaking hands after the prayers. Mulla 'Ali al-Qari writes, "Some of our scholars have explicitly mentioned that it [shaking hands after prayer] is disliked, and for this reason it is from among the reprehensible innovations ([I]Mirqat al-mafatih 1:368, see also Radd al-muthar 5:244). [A] Conversely, one must also be cautious of ignorantly labeling something, which may be recommended or permissible, as a bid'a, since that is also detrimental to the faith.



Excerpt from, Provisions for the Seekers with commentary by Mufti Abdur-Rahman Ibn Yusuf


http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?69119-Bid-ah&highlight=bid%27ah

[Taliban1]

Why do you even want to refute the salafi? Is it because it feels good? Or is it because you want to sound good?

What's the reason man? Just let them do what they are doing.. and you do what you are required to do.... Leave them alone and concentrate on yourself. There are many better things to do then refute them. Call people who don't even know kalimah towards deen... its better than refuting salafis.

[aMuslimForLife]

Assalamu alaykum.

A lot of salafis will say regarding good bidah, why would you do it if Islam is perfect and has no shortcomings? They are basically trying to imply we believe the religion is incomplete or has shortcomings.

How do we address these kinds of arguments? Islam is complete, has been completed already in Prophet SAW lifetime. It is perfect; it has no flaws.
So they ask if it has no flaws why add things to it?

Can anyone offer some good reasons for this?

One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.

Any other arguments? Jazak Allah khair!

My reply to Salafis, is part of the religion being perfect is that ijithad (making new rulings) is permissible.

With regards to the hadith, Every innovation is a deviation.

There is a consensus among the scholars, that this does not refer to "all" new things, eventhough the word "every" is used in the hadith.

How Salafis understand the statement of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) Every innovation is a deviation is (if their scholars disagrees with that new thing, or their new ruling), it is deviation.

But the reality of the matter is, I don't have to follow their scholars.

SO they are a little bias in their approach, It is a mere tactic they use to guide the uneducated to their way of thinking. They are not honest, nor are they scholarly.

That is my reply to them.

And Allah knows best.

[حسان 30]

My reply to Salafis, is part of the religion being perfect is that ijithad (making new rulings) is permissible.

With regards to the hadith, Every innovation is a deviation.

There is a consensus among the scholars, that this does not refer to "all" new things, eventhough the word "every" is used in the hadith.

:salam:

So now show us the consensus and show us how the innovation in 'aqeedah, manhaj, 'ibada was not meant by "Every" According to consensus.....


So with that being said I would gander to say that there is no such consensus on 'aqeedah, manhaj, 'ibada NOT being part of that word every.... Because if anything the SALAF were the strictest against Innovation in 'Aqeedah,Manhaj, and 'Ibada and thus that was part of the word every...


So pretty please show us this consensus.

And explain to us the meaning of every according to you...

[Nomadic]

Consensus. I thought all this is biddah according to SS lot.

[Cloud_Strife]

Can we please stick to the topic and not debating within threads? Please brother.

Secondly someone

*mentioned why I even bother with this topic. I bother with this topic because I am tired of traditional masajids all across N America letting salafis give Khutbah and they in the Khutbah suggest we don't quite believe Islam is complete and free of shortcomings. How dare they accuse us of this? And we let them have the pulpit because theyre a revert or just a good speaker but not even knowledgeable on the deen.

What if we kept saying, why do you keep saying Allah has a chin you do know shirk Akbar lands you in hell for all eternity.

Im tired of their **** to be honest and their deceptive ways.*

Go to YouTube type sheikh mumtaz ul haq and see him tear their arguments to shreds.

My thing is even if they disagree with all us on bidah why suggest we don't believe Islam is complete why suggest we believe the deen has shortcomings?

30hasana, please do not turn this thread into that debate. Please make another thread and let's stick to the topic.

[Sulaiman84]

:salam:

It's a test, man. Make intention to learn your deen first and foremost so that you can worship Allah with baseerah. Then call others towards the same.

The mimbar is a place of Amaanah, not a place of Khidmah. Let the masjid Admins know that.

[aMuslimForLife]

:salam:

So now show us the consensus and show us how the innovation in 'aqeedah, manhaj, 'ibada was not meant by "Every" According to consensus.....


So with that being said I would gander to say that there is no such consensus on 'aqeedah, manhaj, 'ibada NOT being part of that word every.... Because if anything the SALAF were the strictest against Innovation in 'Aqeedah,Manhaj, and 'Ibada and thus that was part of the word every...


So pretty please show us this consensus.

And explain to us the meaning of every according to you...

Imam Malik said, "Recitation from a copy of the Quran (mushaf) in the masjid was not the practice of the very first people. Al Hajjah was the first to innovate it."

Imam Malik considered this an innovation, and he was from the Tabi Tabi'een. Reciting from the Mushaf is an act of ibadah, which was not practiced by the Sahaba according to Imam Malik. This innovation is considered permissible according to the Salafi scholars, and I've seen many salafis doing this in the masjid. This is an innovation, that Salafis engage in that the Sahaba did not engage in. Salafis pick and choose which innovations they want to embrace and which innovation they want to reject.

Another innovation that I've seen Salafis do, is holding the Mushaf in their hand, while leading Tarawih prayer. Show me one Sahaba who did that.

Going to the masjid to pray is an act of Ibadah. The Sahaba use to walk or ride their camels to the masjid. Driving a car to the masjid would be an innovation, since the Sahaba did not drive cars to the masjid. Salafis would consider this a permissble, thus it would be a permissible innovation.

There are permissible innovations that Salafis approve of.

What a Shafi scholar calls a good bidah, a salafi scholar calls, a linguistic bidah.
What a Shafi scholar calls a bad bidah, a Salafi scholar calls, a legal bidah.

The only difference between a Shafi scholar and a salafi scholar is what falls into those catorgories.

So there is a consensus, that "every" does not refer to "all" new things.

Prove to me that the above mentioned examples are NOT acts of ibadah. And prove to me that the above are NOT innovations by providing a hadith or an athar of the prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) or one of the companions doing the above.

And Allah knows best.

[dr.ati]

My best advise is to put your energy in effectively changing the situation. Get involved with traditional organisaiton like Zaituna or Seekersdigest

Allahualam

I wonder why you people run towards such people/organizations in the hatred of Salafis , with whom you yourself don't agree fully. The best advise is to pen down all the issues related to Salafis and send them to Mufti Taqi Uthmani DB , Mufti Zarwali or Mufti Ibrahim desai. If they something about the Salafis, it will have some weight.
Taking shelter in the camp of Nuh Killer , GF Haddad , Hamza Yusuf , Abdul Hakim Murad and Yaqubi in the enmity of Salafis and then the very next movement ,as the salafi-obsession is over for sometime , coming out of the shelter and pointing out mistakes in these mentioned individuals make no sense. Rather it looks daft.

[Usman]

Assalamu alaykum.

A lot of salafis will say regarding good bidah, why would you do it if Islam is perfect and has no shortcomings? They are basically trying to imply we believe the religion is incomplete or has shortcomings.

How do we address these kinds of arguments? Islam is complete, has been completed already in Prophet SAW lifetime. It is perfect; it has no flaws.
So they ask if it has no flaws why add things to it?

Can anyone offer some good reasons for this?

One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.

Any other arguments? Jazak Allah khair!

A good bid'ah in itself is not a bid'ah in shar'ee sense. Because for something to be condemnable ( a bid'ah ) , the requirement is that the people practicing it be considering it a part of deen, or what we say "Ihdath fid-deen" (addition into the religion). A good bid'ah in itself is not really an addition into the religion, it's the addition FOR the religion. For example, making a requirement that a person doing the commentary on the Qur'an should be well versed in such and such subjects. Of course the Sahabah (radhi Allahu anhum) never studied those things as a subject, but to generalize for the masses, these subjects comprise of all the necessary knowledge that even the Sahabah (radhi Allahu anhum) had for Tafsir.

Similarly, holding gatherings of Dhikr after Zuhr or any specific time, no one considers that partical gathering in itself, as deen, rather a means to become a practicing Muslim, etc etc.

I hope this helps.

[Maripat]

Taking shelter in the camp of Nuh Killer , GF Haddad , Hamza Yusuf , Abdul Hakim Murad and Yaqubi in the enmity of Salafis and then the very next movement ,as the salafi-obsession is over for sometime , coming out of the shelter and pointing out mistakes in these mentioned individuals make no sense. Rather it looks daft.

:salam:
Is there a brief assessment of these scholars done by a conservative scholar?
Wassalam

[dr.ati]

:salam:
Is there a brief assessment of these scholars done by a conservative scholar?
Wassalam

:salam:

I don't know if any orthodox scholar has done there assessment.I have come across random criticism of certain stances of these individuals .
:jazak:

[حسان 30]

Imam Malik said, "Recitation from a copy of the Quran (mushaf) in the masjid was not the practice of the very first people. Al Hajjah was the first to innovate it."

The statement of Imam Malik is not Daleel.


Imam Malik considered this an innovation, and he was from the Tabi Tabi'een. Reciting from the Mushaf is an act of ibadah, which was not practiced by the Sahaba according to Imam Malik. This innovation is considered permissible according to the Salafi scholars, and I've seen many salafis doing this in the masjid. This is an innovation, that Salafis engage in that the Sahaba did not engage in. Salafis pick and choose which innovations they want to embrace and which innovation they want to reject.



Did or did not the Sahaba write on paper and did or did not uthmaan burn the copies of different mushaf, and did or did not umar intend to go kill the Prophet :saw: until his sister read from the paper with the Quran on it?


Another innovation that I've seen Salafis do, is holding the Mushaf in their hand, while leading Tarawih prayer. Show me one Sahaba who did that.

I didn't ask you what salafis do or don't do, I said give us the proof of your statement that there is Ijma' that not every bida'a is bida'a in DEENI issues.


Going to the masjid to pray is an act of Ibadah. The Sahaba use to walk or ride their camels to the masjid. Driving a car to the masjid would be an innovation, since the Sahaba did not drive cars to the masjid. Salafis would consider this a permissble, thus it would be a permissible innovation.

If you really think that proves that you can do bida'a you need to go back to first grade.



So there is a consensus, that "every" does not refer to "all" new things.



Right it doesn't but it does refer to ALL new things fi AMRINA HATHA.... Using technology to arise at the same point is not the same as changing the point to a different point.

Example, our Masajid have rugs.... the Prophet :saw:'s masjid didn't but it is not CHANGING the salah it is making it easy by the way of technology.

Example of bida'a, celebrating the birthday of the Prophet :saw:.

So now show us once again where EVERY innovation is not talking EVERY innovation in the RELIGION not in TECHNOLOGICAL advancements. You're proof of the mushaf is bida'a is wrong because the Sahaba had a mushaf and read from them...

And lastly, their sunnah is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet :saw:.



Prove to me that the above mentioned examples are NOT acts of ibadah. And prove to me that the above are NOT innovations by providing a hadith or an athar of the prophet (sallahu alayhi wa salam) or one of the companions doing the above.

And Allah knows best.

I will once you give me proof for your crooked understanding of consensus of Bida'a.

[Cloud_Strife]

30, please stop hijacking my thread and take your arguments there. This is the second time I've asked you this. Please do me this favor.

Mods please keep the thread open as I'd like to get as much input on how to argue against these ideas as possible.

I know in Canada of one very ignorant popular speaker who is not a hafiz, or anything. He gives lectures in trad masajids all the time and always throws in the salafi manhaj stuff.

Can we please keep this on topic and take the arguments between people to another thread?


I don't hate salafis for the record. I have salafi friends but salafis are a huge fitnah for this ummah. I don't want to compare them to khawaarij but there's so much fitnah with them.

[rqsnnt]

....
...
I don't hate salafis for the record. I have salafi friends but salafis are a huge fitnah for this ummah. I don't want to compare them to khawaarij but there's so much fitnah with them.

:bism:
:salam:

Following formula is showing how to make something permissible, this formula will reduce fitnah. U can apply against them.

Although there is no proof from hadith for this, but also there is no hadith that saying this is prohibited.


:jazak:

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Assalamu alaykum.

A lot of salafis will say regarding good bidah, why would you do it if Islam is perfect and has no shortcomings? They are basically trying to imply we believe the religion is incomplete or has shortcomings.

How do we address these kinds of arguments? Islam is complete, has been completed already in Prophet SAW lifetime. It is perfect; it has no flaws.
So they ask if it has no flaws why add things to it?

Can anyone offer some good reasons for this?

One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.

Any other arguments? Jazak Allah khair!

:ws:

In order to counter the argument you need to understand both sides of the argument and rationalize what you are trying to counter.

Amongst the Hanafees Shah Waliullah (RA) and many others clearly denounce “Good Bid’ah” and state that there could be nothing “good” in an innovation!

Amongst the Shaf’aes it is a standard position that there are good Bid’aahs and bad Bid’aahs and a five part categorization of “Bid’ah.

The Shafa'e evidence is based on this Athar of Sayyidina Umar :ra:


وَعَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَبْدٍ الْقَارِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ خَرَجْتُ مَعَ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لَيْلَةً فِي رَمَضَانَ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَإِذَا النَّاسُ أَوْزَاعٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ يُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَيُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ فَيُصَلِّي بِصَلَاتِهِ الرَّهْطُ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنِّي أَرَى لَوْ جَمَعْتُ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَى قَارِئٍ وَاحِدٍ لَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ ثُمَّ عَزَمَ فَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى أُبَيِّ بْنِ كَعْبٍ ثُمَّ خَرَجْتُ مَعَهُ لَيْلَةً أُخْرَى وَالنَّاسُ يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاةِ قَارِئِهِمْ قَالَ عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هَذِهِ وَالَّتِي يَنَامُونَ عَنْهَا أَفْضَلُ مِنْ الَّتِي يَقُومُونَ يُرِيدُ آخِرَ اللَّيْلِ وَكَانَ النَّاسُ يَقُومُونَ أَوَّلَهُ


Narrated Abu Huraira (RA): Allah's Apostle :saw: said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

Salafees counter this by saying that this is a linguistic utterance

Imam Shaf'ae (RA) himself said:

[B]قال الإمام الشّافعيُّ رضيَ الله عنهُ: " الْمُحْدَثاتُ مِنَ الأمورِ ضَربانِ،أحَدُهُما ما أُحدِثَ مِمّا يُخالِفُ كِتاباً أو سُنّةً أو إجماعاً أو أثَراً،فهذهِ البِدعةُ الضّلالةُ، والثانيةُ ما أُحدِثَ مِنَ الخيْر ولا يُخالِفُ كِتاباًأو سُنّةً أو إجماعاً، وهذهِ مُحدَثَةٌ غيْرُ مَذمومَةٍ " رواهُ البيْهقيُّبالإسنادِ الصّحيح في كتابهِ " مَنَاقِبُ الشَّافِعيّ

"Innovations are of two types: that which contradicts the Quran, the Sunnah, or unanimous agreement of the Muslims is an innovation of deception, while a good innovation does not contradict any of these things."

[from al-Baihaqi Manaqib ash-Shafie]

Salafees counter this by saying that this is an extremely weak report with incomplete or non-existent chain

Shaykh Al-Albani (RA) the Master Muhadith of Salafees said that one of the greateest Hadeeth Scholars of Islam was Shaykh Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hajar_al-Asqalani) who wrote the magnum opus 17 volume commentary of Saheeh Bukhari entitled "Al-Fathul-Bari". In his commentary Shaykh Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hajar_al-Asqalani) clearly also affirms good innovations and the five categories in the following words:


قَوْلُهُ : ( قَالَ عُمَرُ : نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ ) فِي بَعْضِ الرِّوَايَاتِ : " نِعْمَتِ الْبِدْعَةُ " بِزِيَادَةِ تَاءٍ ، وَالْبِدْعَةُ " - مَعْنَاهَا - " أَصْلُهَا مَا أُحْدِثَ عَلَى غَيْرِ مِثَالٍ سَابِقٍ ، وَتُطْلَقُ فِي الشَّرْعِ فِي مُقَابِلِ السُّنَّةِ فَتَكُونُ مَذْمُومَةً ، وَالتَّحْقِيقُ أَنَّهَا إِنْ كَانَتْ مِمَّا تَنْدَرِجُ تَحْتَ مُسْتَحْسِنٍ فِي الشَّرْعِ فَهِيَ حَسَنَةٌ ، وَإِنْ كَانَ مِمَّا تَنْدَرِجُ تَحْتَ مُسْتَقْبَحٍ فِي الشَّرْعِ فَهِيَ مُسْتَقْبَحَةٌ ، وَإِلَّا فَهِيَ مِنْ قِسْمِ الْمُبَاحِ ، وَقَدْ تَنْقَسِمُ إِلَى الْأَحْكَامِ الْخَمْسَةِ .

Salafees can't counter the authenticity of it so they spin the words to mean something else OR don't address it at all!

Then there is the following Hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim:

Jabir b. Abdullah (RA) said: When Allah's Messenger :saw: delivered the sermon, his eyes became red, his voice rose. and his anger increased so that he was like one giving a warning against the enemy and saying:" The enemy has made a morning attack on you and in the evening too." He would also say:" The last Hour and I have been sent like these two." and he would join his forefinger and middle finger; and would further say:" The best of the speech is embodied in the Book of Allah, and the beet of the guidance is the guidance given by Muhammad. And the most evil affairs are their innovations; and every innovation is error." He would further say:, I am more dear to a Muslim even than his self; and he who left behind property that is for his family. and he who dies under debt or leaves children (in helplessness). the responsibility (of paying his debt and bringing up his children) lies on me." (Muslim)

Commenting on this matter the great commentator of Saheeh Muslim, Shaykh (Imam) Nawawi (RA) also agrees with the concept of good Bidah and re-confirms the five categories as follows:


قال النووى فى شرحه على صحيح مسلم"(6/154-155): قوله صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَسَلَّمَ: (وَكُلُّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ) هذا عامٌّ مخصوص، والمراد: غالب البدع. قال أهل اللُّغة: هي كلّ شيء عمل عَلَى غير مثال سابق. قال العلماء: البدعة خمسة أقسام: واجبة، ومندوبة، ومحرَّمة، ومكروهة، ومباحة. فمن الواجبة: نظم أدلَّة المتكلّمين للرَّدّ عَلَى الملاحدة والمبتدعين وشبه ذلك. ومن المندوبة: تصنيف كتب العلم وبناء المدارس والرّبط وغير ذلك. ومن المباح: التّبسط في ألوان الأطعمة وغير ذلك. والحرام والمكروه ظاهران، وقد أوضحت المسألة بأدلَّتها المبسوطة في (تـهذيب الأسماء واللُّغات) فإذا عرف ما ذكرته علم أنَّ الحديث من العامّ المخصوص، وكذا ما أشبهه من الأحاديث الواردة، ويؤيّد ما قلناه قول عمر بن الخطَّاب رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنْهُ في التّـَراويح: نعمت البدعة، ولا يمنع من كون الحديث عامًّا مخصوصًا قوله: (كُلُّ بِدْعَةٍ) مؤكّدًا بـــــــ كلّ، بل يدخله التَّخصيص مع ذلك كقوله تعالى: {تُدَمّرُ كُلَّ شَىءٍ} [الأحقاف،ءاية 25]اهـ


Salafees can't counter the authenticity of it so they spin the words to me an something else OR don't address it at all!

Salafees will counter with a typical line saying give me the words of Allah (SWT) & Rasool :saw: and not Asqalani (RA) or Imam Nawawi (RA) while they have no problems accepting Shaykh Al-Albani (RA)'s words on face value and you will go round and round in circles[/I]

Summary: It is an established position of Shaf'ae Madhab and all those who follow Madhabs should accept it while the Salafees won't EVER accept anybody other then themselves so the discussion is futile but the Salafees are not alone in rejecting the concept of "Good Innovation".

The Game: :


The Salafees will try to spin clear and blatant text of Shaykh Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hajar_al-Asqalani) to mean something which it doesn't
Hanafees who are involved in Bid'ah will quote Shaykh Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hajar_al-Asqalani) in their defense when this isn't the opinion of their own Hanafi Madhab!



: - ) And forums on the Internet are kept alive with spinning and weaving for days and weeks : - )

:jazak:

[حسان 30]

Can we please keep this on topic and take the arguments between people to another thread?

This thread is built upon arguments between people....

and you know an Ignorant Salafi who gives lectures, but you can't refute him... So that makes you extra ignorant right?

[AbuFatimah]

:salam:

If Islam was perfected in the sense that they understand it, then the Hadith sciences are a bid`a and should be abandoned, the university system is a bid`a and so Madinah University should be abandoned, reading the books of Shaikh Ibn Taymiyyah :rahma: is a bid`a and should be abandoned, etc.

Clearly, there is a defect in their understanding of the meaning of bid`a.

Acts of worship done for the sake of Allah that the prophet Salallahu Alayhi wassalam didnt do are bid'ah. Its this simple. Let me ask you, do you implement ALL of what the prophet Salallahu Alayhi wassalam did in worship? Do you read Suratul Kahf every friday? Have you memorised the qur'an? Do you stay up for Tahhajjud? Do you read qur'an till sunrise after fajr? Do you say all of the authentic invocations that the prophet Salallahu alayhi wassalam used to say (e.g. when he woke up Alhamdulillahilladhi...)?

If you dont do all of the acts of worship that the prophet Salallahu Alayhi wasslam did, why oh why would you start to invent your own practyices? Do you believe the religion of the prophet Sallallahu alayhi wassalam is incomplete? Did he forget something that brings you closer to Allah?

Talking about "how come we have books and hadeeth sciences" etc is dodging the issue. We are not talking about those things, we are talking about inventing new acts of worship into the religion taht the prophet Sallahu alayhi wassalam didnt do.

For those of us who werent born to sufi or shia parents its very easy to accept taht the religion of Islaam is perfect and when you see people spinning round and round or swinging there heads left and right saying "Huu, Huu" that this is clearly wrong, and that should we want to follow Islaam, the attitude that "if the prophet worshipped in this way I will do it inshAllah" is very clear cut for us. When your a revert, all this stuff loooks like a bit of a joke to be honest. Noone is going to believe that stuff.

Amr ibn Yahya narrated his father told him, “We used to sit at Abdullah Ibn Masood’s house before Fajr prayer. If he exited we would follow him to the musjid. Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari then came to us and asked us, ‘Did Abu Abur-Rahman (Abdullah Ibn Masood) come out yet?’ We said, ‘No’, so he sat with us till he emerged. We all stood up when he exited.

He (Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari) said, ‘O Abu Adur-Rahman, I just saw something which I did not recognize, and I did not see, all thanks to Allah, but good.’ He (Ibn Masood) said, ‘What is it?’ He (Abu Musa) said, ‘If you live you will see it. I saw in the musjid people sitting in circles waiting for the prayer. In each circle there is a leader, and they have stones in their hands. He (the leader) would say, ‘Say Takbir (Allahu Akbar) 100 times’, so they say Takbir 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tahil (La Ilaha Illa Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tahil 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tasbih (Subhana Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tasbih 100 times.

Ibn Masood said, ‘Did you not order them to count their evil deeds, and guarantee them that none of their good deeds will be lost?’ Then he and us left till we reached one of the circles. Then he (Ibn Masood) stood next to the circle and said, ‘What are you doing?’ They said, ‘O Abu Abdur-Rahamn, (these are) stones that we count our Takbir, Tahil, tasbih, and Tah’mid (Alhumdu’lillah).’

Ibn Masood said, ‘Count your evil deeds, for I guarantee that none of your good deeds will be lost. What is the matter with you, O nation of Muhammad? How soon you come to your destruction! The companions (of Muhammad) are still many, these are his clothes still not worn out and his cookware did not break yet. By whom my soul is in His Hands, you are either following a religion better than Muhammad’s or followers of a way of evil.’

They said, ‘By Allah, O Abu Abdur-Rahman, we sought only what is good.’ Ibn Masood said, ‘Many people seek good, but they do not reach it. The Messenger told us some people who read the Quran will not have the Quran leave their throats (to their hearts). By Allah I do not know if most of you are from them.’ Then he left them. Amr Ibn Salamah said, ‘We saw most of those people fighting against us, in the battle of Nahrawan with the Khawarij.’” (Tirmidhi)

Once a man sneezed in the presence of Ibn Umar and said, “Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the Messenger.’ Ibn Umar chastised the man and said, “The Prophet has only taught us to say Alhumdu’lillah.” (Tirmidhi)

[mospike]

This thread is built upon arguments between people....

and you know an Ignorant Salafi who gives lectures, but you can't refute him... So that makes you extra ignorant right?

Abottabad feeling about this

[AbuFatimah]

Also as a Salafi can I just say it saddens me to see deobandis defending bid'ah.

Ignorant Salafis think that you are misguided if you follow a madhab. The beef between Salafis and Deobandis is not about following a madhab. The issue is bid'ah, so I had hoped taht we would slowly see the deobandis moving away from clear cut innovations into teh religion. I pray in a deobandi masjid and we do not see all the madness that teh barellwi masjid down the road does. I really hope deoabdnis can leave bid'ah. If you want to stick to the madhab of abu hanifiyyah, tahts fine, Salafis need to be eductaed taht this is ok and that it shouldnt be a cause for division. But as for justiying just about any act of worship that you want into Islaam on the basis of it being aa "good bid'ah" then Allahu musta'aan, I sincerely hope this isnt the case. If it is, will Allah reward me for doing star jumps if I do thenm sincerely for his sake? Can this be a "good bid'ah". What about rolling down a hill? Or eating cheese every friday at 2 o clock? or waking up at exactly 1:36am every morning and saying "chimpanzee's and penguins" and going back to sleep. Are these good bid'ah too?

[Aspirer]

Also as a Salafi can I just say it saddens me to see deobandis defending bid'ah.

Ignorant Salafis think that you are misguided if you follow a madhab. The beef between Salafis and Deobandis is not about following a madhab. The issue is bid'ah, so I had hoped taht we would slowly see the deobandis moving away from clear cut innovations into teh religion. I pray in a deobandi masjid and we do not see all the madness that teh barellwi masjid down the road does. I really hope deoabdnis can leave bid'ah. If you want to stick to the madhab of abu hanifiyyah, tahts fine, Salafis need to be eductaed taht this is ok and that it shouldnt be a cause for division. But as for justiying just about any act of worship that you want into Islaam on the basis of it being aa "good bid'ah" then Allahu musta'aan, I sincerely hope this isnt the case. If it is, will Allah reward me for doing star jumps if I do thenm sincerely for his sake? Can this be a "good bid'ah". What about rolling down a hill? Or eating cheese every friday at 2 o clock? or waking up at exactly 1:36am every morning and saying "chimpanzee's and penguins" and going back to sleep. Are these good bid'ah too?

:salam:

I don't see how those are comparable.

Here's a discourse on the matter from one of the founders of Darul Uloom Deoband.


“[In regards to] his statement, ‘he who innovates in this matter of ours’, [it refers to] that which is not from the matter of religion, like food, drink and clothes, since people are given an option in all that is available in these things, although adherence to him (upon him be peace) is better than everything [else].
“[As for] his statement, ‘that which is not from it’, i.e. that which is not from its means, because means are included in [the matter of religion]. This is why Shaykh Mujaddid [al-Alf al-Thani] (Allah be pleased with him) said that the sciences which are a means to conduct religiously sanctioned matters, like Sarf and Nahw, are included in the sunnah and the designation of bid’ah is not used for them, because according him (Allah be pleased with him) there is no good in bid’ah at all. Therefore, he said, ‘We abstain from good bid’ah, even if its light is like the break of dawn, because bid’ah inevitably removes a sunnah. If one does something which he (upon him be peace) did not do, he is in opposition to him in this [practice], and if he did not do something that he (Allah bless him and grant him peace) did do, that is also the case.’ As a consequence, he (Allah be pleased with him) prohibited uttering one’s intention (niyyah) at the beginning of prayer because it is not established from him (Allah bless him and grant him peace), nor from the Companions, nor from any of the mujtahids.

“Some ‘ulama divide bid’ah into good and evil. Nonetheless, our ‘ulama said that performing one sunnah, even if it is a light matter like entering the lavatory with the left foot first, is better than a good bid’ah, even if it is a splendid matter, like building schools.”

The above is quoted from the article The Concept of Bid'ah in the Shariah (http://www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/principles-of-fiqh/the-concept-of-bidah-in-the-shariah/), which you may already have read, seeing your considerable history on this message board I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't linked you to it yet.

The point being that 'good bidah' would appear to be a Shafi'i discourse, though I can certainly make no serious conclusions about it from my light research into the matter, and I do not know the stances of other ulema on it. However, given that it is substantiated from Imam Shafi'i and the entirety of the Shafi'i school, it deserves the same scholarly respect as the opinions regarding other such things upon which there is disagreement.

It would seem that there is more agreement than you think in this regard with your own stance, although I believe that there would arise disagreement on the precise definition of bid'a and what it relates to exactly.

[AbuFatimah]

:salam:

I don't see how those are comparable.

Here's a discourse on the matter from one of the founders of Darul Uloom Deoband.



The above is quoted from the article The Concept of Bid'ah in the Shariah (http://www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/principles-of-fiqh/the-concept-of-bidah-in-the-shariah/), which you may already have read, seeing your considerable history on this message board I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't linked you to it yet.

The point being that 'good bidah' would appear to be a Shafi'i discourse, though I can certainly make no serious conclusions about it from my light research into the matter, and I do not know the stances of other ulema on it. However, given that it is substantiated from Imam Shafi'i and the entirety of the Shafi'i school, it deserves the same scholarly respect as the opinions regarding other such things upon which there is disagreement.

It would seem that there is more agreement than you think in this regard with your own stance, although I believe that there would arise disagreement on the precise definition of bid'a and what it relates to exactly.

Wa alaykum Salaam brother

Im not conerned with very finer details e.g. acting upon a hadeeth that is da'eef, as long as the brothers are against clear open innovation into the religion then this is khair. For example, Shaikh Al albani Rahimahullah said taht to fold your arms after ruku' is bid'ah. This type of bid'ah i.e. a weaker opinion that is still from the oppinions of the Salaf based upon clear fiqh principles that may not necesasarily be the strongest oppinion, I dont have an issue with and I dont waste my time debating with anyone on this. But as for whirling dirwishes and singing and dancing and tawwaf around graves and going to hindu shrines and these kinds of things which are clear acts of worship which are not from teh practice of the prophet Sallahu alayhi wassalam, along with clear shirk such as asking a saint to grant you a child or save you from a calamity, this is something that needs to be removed from the ummah inshAllah and I would be very surprised if the deobandi ulema support these things, and as such, if they are against it, I advise for those who have teh deobandoi fatawa to publish them here like brother aspirer just did and educate his deobandi bretheren inshAllah. Wallah the more we agree on the better and some things, as i mentioned, should be overlooked and there is no disagreement amongst the salafi scholars that there are areas of ijtihaad which are permissable to differ in and fundamentals that you cant differ in. The principle that " we worship how the prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam worshipped" is one of those principles and anyone who starts bringing "yeh but school, hadeeth sciences, universitys" etc etc, they are dodgiong left and right on a clear cut point to be honest, we are talking about ACTS OF WORSHIP!

Books and universities are hardly the same as what the haqqanis I used to know did, such meeting ina church every sunday to put a picture of "shaikh" nazim in the middle of teh circle and then "connect their hearts to him" and start going "Allahu, Allahu, Allahu, HAQH!!!". All of teh prophets came to bring the same message, that your worship should not be shared with anyone and should be solely for Allah. This point should not be belittled and it should be the unifiying point in our religion. Some deobandis I know would rather unite with barelwis that salafis, even though our beef is much less than the beef between muwahideen and barelwis. I really hope people are more educated in these matters inshAllah and Im sure the deobandi ulema dont sponsor what many of the followers say

[Aspirer]

Wa alaykum Salaam brother

But as for whirling dirwishes and singing and dancing and tawwaf around graves and going to hindu shrines and these kinds of things which are clear acts of worship which are not from teh practice of the prophet Sallahu alayhi wassalam, along with clear shirk such as asking a saint to grant you a child or save you from a calamity, this is something that needs to be removed from the ummah inshAllah and I would be very surprised if the deobandi ulema support these things, and as such, if they are against it, I advise for those who have teh deobandoi fatawa to publish them here like brother aspirer just did and educate his deobandi bretheren inshAllah.

You have read Taqiyat-ul Iman, yes? By Shaykh Shah Ismail Shaheed :rahim:? He spoke out against many of the above practices in strong and clear terms.

There are other matters where it is not so clear. Perhaps you could refer to Darul Mahmood (http://www.daralmahmood.org/tasawwuf_qa_1.html) for another Deobandi treatment of what does and does not constitute bidah and what does and does not constitute ibadah; I have found the above dissertation to be helpful in understanding the matter and the ikhtaalif myself.

This must be done, however. What constitutes bidah, precisely, in your terms? What constitutes ibadah? It is well known that many things constitute ibadah that would not seem so on first glance, such as satiating onself in a lawful manner with one's spouse. Adopting the manner of the Prophet :saw: is a form of ibadah, is it not? There is no disagreement on that. So how, exactly, would the scholars you refer to define ibadah? If seeking knowledge falls into that definition, then the madrassah system would indeed be a bidah, and furthermore, one in ibadah. If memorizing the Qur'an is ibadah, then utilizing methods of memorizing the Qur'an that were not utilized by the Salaf would be bidah, and if bidah meant the externality of the statement in the hadith then adopting alternate manners of doing so would be misguidance. So it is best that the terms are defined before the discussion is joined, such that we can have a clearer understanding of the respective stances at hand.

I would not characterize posting an article or copying the footnotes of an article to be educating anyone- if anyone has educated anyone, it is Shaykh Uthmani :rahim: and the team at deoband.org who undertook the difficult task of translating a scholarly treatise.

EDIT- a final note, the Usul principle regarding 'acting on hadiths which are da'eef' involves greater compatibility with the external (obvious) meaning of the Qur'an, as far as I understand it from Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. This is a reasonable principle, is it not? If not, why is that?

[AbuFatimah]

@Aspirer: Im not looking for a debate on bid'ah to be honest. I came for other purposes and just wanted to give my 2cents when I saw this thread as I saw the word salafi and wondered what is going on in the sufiVSsalafi debate these days. As for the principles and definitions, we salafis have a very clear definition and set of principles that i am satisfied with and I can tell you them but not willing to debate them with you so depends on if you are just curious to ask or if you are looking to redefine my definitions to meet deobandi standards.

A general rule is anything worldly such as food or sex is halal unless there is an evidence for it to be haraam and religious acts are considered haraam unless there is a proof for tehm to be halal. That is the explanation a Salafi from the general folk would be given just so he has a very simple principle to live according to taht isnt too confusing.

A Salafi student of knowledge is taught that there are two types of sunnah. Sunnah that the prophet did. And things that the prophet didnt do.
Something is considered innovation if the prophet Sallahu alayhi wassalam had both the need for it and the ability. SO microphones werent invented so the ability wasnt there. Going to aghanistan woudl have been technically possible for him but he didnt need to do that. Anything where he had teh need and the ablity but still left is considered bid'ah. This is was how it was explained to me by Shaikh Maher al Qahtani may Allah preserve him when he came to teh UK and blessed us with his presence and he went through some ebenficial books.

As for the scholarly understanding, for those who have reached a high level, and I suspect this is the definition you are looking for, with precise proofs and definitions and heavy details etc, then I dont know, Allahu a'lam. You woudl need to consult with a salafi Scholar if you are interested to know their position on this inshAllah. Perhaps ask a question at shaikh munajjids site or somethi9ng inshAllah.


@Kashmiri: Wow mashAllah you sufis are so deep and spritual, your "Prophet like manners and akhlaaq" taht you learned from your "Shaikh" really mesmorised me. After seeing such an astounding post, I can see that the salafis are truely on teh ropes now that they have to face this level of sprituality from the sufis. You truely sumarise hwo good sufis are compared with teh evil "wahhabis"

[AbuFatimah]

Br. Kashmir
You are ill mannered and is far removed from the Sunnah by the stance you take toward fellow muslim. I am not fond of salafism but even less fond of berlewism. Atleast the former (the scholarly) ones are respectful where as berlwism as a whole with the exception of few are emotionaly led. Calling everyone wahabi is not a rebuttle.
Br. David,
ignore Kashmir.
Allahualam

No problem brother, Jazak Allahu Khair, to be honest Im glad someone came here to respresent barelwis to show their great contribution to the debate.

If anyone wants to see what teh sufis have got, this debate is what I recommend inshAllah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAcYfwoA-M

it used to only be available by sufis and they edited it to have shaikh damashqia reciting nice qur'an followed by subtitles such as "the khawarij will recite qur'an and it wont go beyond their throats" so out of respect for the brother I thought it best to post up the salafi version but I dont mind if someone wants to post up the sufi version. On the side you can see anotehr one of his videos with a big red "wahhabi" stamp edited onto it lol. Jokes.

[Aspirer]

@Aspirer: Im not looking for a debate on bid'ah to be honest. I came for other purposes and just wanted to give my 2cents when I saw this thread as I saw the word salafi and wondered what is going on in the sufiVSsalafi debate these days. As for the principles and definitions, we salafis have a very clear definition and set of principles that i am satisfied with and I can tell you them but not willing to debate them with you so depends on if you are just curious to ask or if you are looking to redefine my definitions to meet deobandi standards.

A general rule is anything worldly such as food or sex is halal unless there is an evidence for it to be haraam and religious acts are considered haraam unless there is a proof for tehm to be halal. That is the explanation a Salafi from the general folk would be given just so he has a very simple principle to live according to taht isnt too confusing.

A Salafi student of knowledge is taught that there are two types of sunnah. Sunnah that the prophet did. And things that the prophet didnt do.
Something is considered innovation if the prophet Sallahu alayhi wassalam had both the need for it and the ability. SO microphones werent invented so the ability wasnt there. Going to aghanistan woudl have been technically possible for him but he didnt need to do that. Anything where he had teh need and the ablity but still left is considered bid'ah. This is was how it was explained to me by Shaikh Maher al Qahtani may Allah preserve him when he came to teh UK and blessed us with his presence and he went through some ebenficial books.

As for the scholarly understanding, for those who have reached a high level, and I suspect this is the definition you are looking for, with precise proofs and definitions and heavy details etc, then I dont know, Allahu a'lam. You woudl need to consult with a salafi Scholar if you are interested to know their position on this inshAllah. Perhaps ask a question at shaikh munajjids site or somethi9ng inshAllah.


:salam:

My point is only thus- there are two separate definitions of bid'ah clearly at work here. The madrassah system is considered to be the same kind of bid'ah as the dhikrs that some of your scholars charge to be bid'ah- the dhikrs are never the end, but merely the means. The end is ihsan. This is the same as the seeking knowledge (ends- to be of those who have inherited from the Prophets, means- from sitting at a scholar's feet to clicking things on the internet and listening from a Paltalk server to a talk given from one corner of the world reaching all of them) example which is commonly given.

Now, if you want to advance a technologically based definition of the term then that's all well and good, but there's clear ikhtaalif on the matter and the whole point of ikhtaalif is that we do not let it separate us. The Four Mujtahid Imams clearly all respected one anothers' work and one anothers' definitions and understandings of the hadiths, the sayings of the sahaba, and so-and-so.

The definition of bid'ah that has been advanced by your scholars is probably in line with Hanbali explanations of what constitutes bid'ah. I say probably because I have not checked anything by Ibn Qudama :rahim: or other early Hanbali scholars so as to gain certainty.

I am not interested in redefining your standards, only charging that such questions cannot be properly answered in a discussion concerning one matter or another if two parties have different definitions and understandings of terms- all of which are rooted in the same subject matter (the Shar'iah). But if you contest the possibility of separate definitions of terms, or state that one definition is 'more correct,' or 'more authentic,' or otherwise disparage the possibility of disagreement with the (possibly) Hanbali definition of bid'ah, then how is a discussion to be had in any case?

[AbuFatimah]

:salam:

My point is only thus- there are two separate definitions of bid'ah clearly at work here. The madrassah system is considered to be the same kind of bid'ah as the dhikrs that some of your scholars charge to be bid'ah- the dhikrs are never the end, but merely the means. The end is ihsan. This is the same as the seeking knowledge (ends- to be of those who have inherited from the Prophets, means- from sitting at a scholar's feet to clicking things on the internet and listening from a Paltalk server to a talk given from one corner of the world reaching all of them) example which is commonly given.

Now, if you want to advance a technologically based definition of the term then that's all well and good, but there's clear ikhtaalif on the matter and the whole point of ikhtaalif is that we do not let it separate us. The Four Mujtahid Imams clearly all respected one anothers' work and one anothers' definitions and understandings of the hadiths, the sayings of the sahaba, and so-and-so.

The definition of bid'ah that has been advanced by your scholars is probably in line with Hanbali explanations of what constitutes bid'ah. I say probably because I have not checked anything by Ibn Qudama :rahim: or other early Hanbali scholars so as to gain certainty.

I am not interested in redefining your standards, only charging that such questions cannot be properly answered in a discussion concerning one matter or another if two parties have different definitions and understandings of terms- all of which are rooted in the same subject matter (the Shar'iah). But if you contest the possibility of separate definitions of terms, or state that one definition is 'more correct,' or 'more authentic,' or otherwise disparage the possibility of disagreement with the (possibly) Hanbali definition of bid'ah, then how is a discussion to be had in any case?

I got your point and thankyou for having good manners, jazak Allahu khair.

Dhicker, however, is an act of worship and should be done how the prophet sallahu alayhi wassalam did it.

As for technilogical improvements etc, these even occured in teh life of the prophet and the times of the salaf. Such as khandaq, which was taken from the persians. Such as ships for war. Such as the harakaat on the qur'an. etc. But no knew religious practices were ever invented by them. Being a salafi means following the salaf so unless you have some narrations from the salaf in thsi regard?

[AbuFatimah]

:salam: to my dear brothers,

Please brothers dont argue these "muslim" brothers , they will take you to their level of understanding and beat you with experience and most of you know what level of understanding they have in deen.

Dont entertain their posts that's all. We dont need to prove anything.

why did you put the word muslim in speech marks bro?

[amr123]

@David
:salam: bro.
Do you agree that scholars from the 1st 200 years (after Hijra) is more knowledgeable than contemporary Scholars?

[Aspirer]

I got your point and thankyou for having good manners, jazak Allahu khair.

Dhicker, however, is an act of worship and should be done how the prophet sallahu alayhi wassalam did it.

As for technilogical improvements etc, these even occured in teh life of the prophet and the times of the salaf. Such as khandaq, which was taken from the persians. Such as ships for war. Such as the harakaat on the qur'an. etc. But no knew religious practices were ever invented by them. Being a salafi means following the salaf so unless you have some narrations from the salaf in thsi regard?

:salam:

Let us consider the example, as you have raised it, of dhikr. Is dhikr a means, or is it an end? Perhaps it is (or can be) both. Because if it is a means, then it falls into a similar category as that of the listed technological innovations; if it is an end, then it falls into quite a different category. If it is both, then it depends on context.

I have previously pointed out that there are clearly different existing definitions of bid'ah depending on fiqh-based understanding. Due to this fact, no one 'true' definition can be advanced to the extent that others are excluded. Let us place Hanbali and Shafi'i understandings of the matter on two ends of the spectrum. Where Hanafi understanding and Maliki understanding of the matter arises is different and I am unaware of the Maliki position, but the Hanafi position is quite clear and closer to that of the Hanbali position than the Shafi'i, as evinced by the posted article.

It is not my job or yours to convince one another of the situation at hand with proofs or what-have-you, since neither of us are of the capacity to fully understand said proofs. I am sure that all positions are well-rooted in the endlessly rich soil of the Shar'iah.

Wa iyakum.

[Cloud_Strife]

This thread is built upon arguments between people....

and you know an Ignorant Salafi who gives lectures, but you can't refute him... So that makes you extra ignorant right?

I didnt say I can't refute him.
I don't think salafis are ignorant but theres issues there.

Thanks for calling me ignorant, brother.

[rqsnnt]

Assalamu alaykum.
...
One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.
...


:bism:
:salam:

Brother Cloud_Strife, Islam is not only perfect but also COMPLETE. I think u failed to told them this. Is Islam is completed, then what r the items left by our prophet :saw: to ADD in Islam after his (:saw:) death? Can u plz make a list what r the items?


:jazak:

[حسان 30]

I didnt say I can't refute him.
I don't think salafis are ignorant but theres issues there.

Thanks for calling me ignorant, brother.


At least i called you ignorant to your face and didn't backbite about you over the internet.

[حسان 30]

@David
:salam: bro.
Do you agree that scholars from the 1st 200 years (after Hijra) is more knowledgeable than contemporary Scholars?

If that's the case your 'Aqeedah should be Athari and you should follow the Salaf. Right?

[Cloud_Strife]

At least i called you ignorant to your face and didn't backbite about you over the internet.

I think backbiting would entail me mentioning where I live and this man's name, etc.

Anyway please stay out of my threads. I don't want to develop hate for any Muslim out there, no matter how awful his Or her behavior may be.

Let's just make peace. Please don't post in this thread anymore. I forgive you for your words towards me but please forgive me as well and let those of us who follow a madhab discuss this issue. I am saying this with respect to you brother.

[burningmoon]

Assalamu alaykum.

A lot of salafis will say regarding good bidah, why would you do it if Islam is perfect and has no shortcomings? They are basically trying to imply we believe the religion is incomplete or has shortcomings.

How do we address these kinds of arguments? Islam is complete, has been completed already in Prophet SAW lifetime. It is perfect; it has no flaws.
So they ask if it has no flaws why add things to it?

Can anyone offer some good reasons for this?

One thing I tell them that yes Islaam is perfect, but it's a religion. It cannot protect itself so things were added to it after Prophet SAW died to help protect it.

Any other arguments? Jazak Allah khair!

Well we have the Quran and the Ahadith, then why do we need books of ibn tayimiah, throw them in dustbin, why do people need such additional books when we have the original.

[umar_italy]

Why do you even want to refute the salafi? Is it because it feels good? Or is it because you want to sound good?

What's the reason man? Just let them do what they are doing.. and you do what you are required to do.... Leave them alone and concentrate on yourself. There are many better things to do then refute them. Call people who don't even know kalimah towards deen... its better than refuting salafis.

You know, the problem isn't that we're going behind them looking for the occasions to refute them, actually it's the opposite and sometimes it's necessary to "defend" ourselves and the validity of our stances through refuting them.

Whoever have met "Salafis" who don't even pray their fard Salah but still inquisite you about "what kind of Muslim are you, "Dawah or Sunnah"?" (which would mean "Tablighi Jama'ah" or "Salafi") will easily understand what I mean..

[maneatinglizard]

At least i called you ignorant to your face and didn't backbite about you over the internet.

I asked if you has issues in another thread, I guess this one confirms it.

Seriously bro, perhaps you should talk with a Shaikh or something.