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al-Hanbali
01-08-2005, 01:06 PM
As Salam Alaikum,

Let me just say at the start that I am not totally against the Jama'atut-Tabligh. I have gone with them and sat with them several times and have seen first hand the benefit that they have brought to countless people who were in heedlessness. May Allah reward them for that and increase them in good-Amin.

After spending some time with them and listening to their speeches (given by their more experienced ones) recently, I started to question their approach in light of Tasawwuf and specifically, the writtings of Imam al Ghazali in his Ihya'.

It seems to me that the Jama'atut-Tabligh focus mostly on Fada'il, increasing the love of Allah, and giving hope (the concept of Raja'). When comparing this method for addressing the common Muslims (ourselves) with the words of al Ghazali, one cant help but see some discrepency.

Imam al Ghazali (as well as those who summerized his work such as Ibn al-Jawzi and Ibn al-Qudamah) held the view that the people were in such a state of Ghaflah, that they should be addressed with Fear and the evil consequences of sins. They should not, in al Ghazali's view, be goaded to the right way via the route of Raja' (hoping).

I see the need for a balance between both ways- i.e. Targhib and Tarhib together. But my question here is for those who are familliar with the Jama'ah as well as the Ihya': Do you see a discrepency between the way of the Jama'ah and the way mentioned by al Ghazali? Which one in your view is better? If we leave the way mentioned by al Ghazali then why? and couldnt we say that as an Ummah we are in worse state than we were in the time of al Ghazali?

I am not asking these questions to open a door to any polemics agaisnt the Jama'ah. This is a serious question that has been heavy on my mind for some time, and I would appreciate anyone who can shed some light on this.

Jazakum Allah Khaira

Muawiyah
01-08-2005, 01:29 PM
I've had discussions with Tableeghis over this issue, their PoV is that since we are dealing mostly with totally irreligious people, there is no other way for us to create talb in everyone or at least not to make any of them antagonistic without using the fadhail only approach.

I've seen two groups who are firmly convinced that everything in their methodology is 100% correct no matter what anyone says. The first are the jamatis and the second are the Tablighis.

Alhumdulillah
01-08-2005, 01:50 PM
Assalamoalaykum...

There is a balance between Fada'il and Raja together with Fear and the evil consequences of sins - just look at the Fadhail Amaal itself: There will be a section on benefits of Salaat, and there will be a section on warnings against negect of Salaat. So there is a balance between both things.

Check this other thread about Fadhail e Amaal in the in depth section, where someone mentions that they were very 'scared' after reading something:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6849

So you see, there is an emphasis on Fear, as well as an emphasis on Hope.

I don't see what the big issue is here. There are different methods and approaches, and what does it really matter if the approach of Imam Ghazali is different from the approach of Maulana Ilyas? The beneficial effects of Maulana's approach is definately established.

Why can't there be different approaches? What was sucessful in the personal opinion of Imam Ghazali from his experience with his students, might not be the best approach for the people nowadays, in the experience of the Ulema today.

Like you yourself acknowledge, the Ummah is not in the same state as it was in the time of Imam Ghazali. So don't you think the methodology has to change too, taking into account the condition of the people? As long as their methods do not go against the shariah, then what is the problem?

I don't understand what the problem or issue is?

Maulana Ilyas was Naqshbandi, in fact he had permission in all 4 silsila. What is more, the founders of the movement were extremely conversent with the teachings of Imam Ghazali - you just have to read the Fadhail e Sadaqat of Shaykul Hadith Khandelvi to note how many times he quotes from and mentions the teachings of Imam Ghazali (May Allah Ta'ala have mercy on all of them).

Wasalaam.

Hamood
01-08-2005, 09:26 PM
What was sucessful in the personal opinion of Imam Ghazali from his experience with his students, might not be the best approach for the people nowadays, in the experience of the Ulema today.

Imam Ghazali was high level scholar. I would like to ask you why you think his approach might not be the best for people nowadays? What authority do you have in making such determination? What experiences of Ulema are you talking about??

The tablighi jamaat has all kinds of people, there are the wacko tablighis who are extremely biased and are mistaken to think that the only right path is tabligh and of course there are the normal ones and also some who realize tasawwuf importance and regularly get involved in it. It depends on who you talk to. We have to realize that tablighi jamaat is soooo huge that there are varying and often contradicting opinions you will get.

I fully support the original tablighi jamaat. Its a blessed effort.

Harris Ibn Qureshi
01-08-2005, 10:34 PM
Good thread..

Tabligh Jamaat have done tremendous great works in the sub-continent and alot of muslims( and non-muslims) fail to ever include maulana ilyas and the great ulema of the deoband as revivers of islam in the 20th century. I personaly find islamic historians fail to mention them because of their bias of them being desis. This is just me and i could be wrong allah hu alam.

Like al-hanabli i would like to point out, i have nothing against the tableeghs. Like brother hanabli said they only have one way of teaching muslims in their jamaat. Yes it's true their may be irreligious ppl in the jamaat, but you will see Tj OG's (brothers who have spent alot of time traveling the world, doing the 3 days/40 days-4 months on the regular) still learning the same thing over and over again. Even though i never have done 40 days or 4 months (inshallah i will do it soon) judging from these guys it seems that no matter how long you been with the effort of tabligh, you do the same thing and never progess in learning the different traditional sciences of islam. This and the fact that they stay away from supporting islamic causes in the world discourages many of us muslims into joining them. I mean we just take what good they offer and just go out looking for a islamic group that tackles all the issues of the muslims...

Sunni_Student786
02-08-2005, 06:58 AM
I've seen two groups who are firmly convinced that everything in their methodology is 100% correct no matter what anyone says. The first are the jamatis and the second are the Tablighis.

Aren't Jamatis and Tablighis the same thing, since the name of the movement is "Tablighi Jamaat" or "Jamaat ut Tablighi"?

Or by "Jamatis" do you mean people that belong to "Jamaat i Islami"?

tazkiyyah
02-08-2005, 07:50 AM
I read in the malfuzaat of mawlana ashraf ali thanwi(alayhi rahmah) that there are 2 ways to reach God.
One is mujahada...the heart is filled with weeds...and you uproot them one by one..slowly slowly..get rid of each one with fear.The second way is mahabbah...
You light the fire of lOVE and it just burns everything besides Allah from the heart.
He said...given the times we are in the second is better given its more rapidity.

It has been the way of indian chishti tasawuf to light the fire of Love..and talk more of love than fear.
Imam Ghazzali is one imaam from the imaams of tasawuf..There are many others.
and they use different techniques..

To insist that only one of these techniques should be used is an error because this is similar to the salafi fiqhi approach of saying myway or the highway.
If we look at the effects of tableegh..we see it has changed the lives of millions...Has actually taken them away from sin (without necessarily focusing on khawf)
Perhaps it has catered for those who were scared by the ulema delivering khawf lectures------no bad thing.
You find also some western ulema doing the same thing..Shaykh Hamza Yusuf for example emphasises rahmah...and positivity...and rarely(if ever) talks of jahannam.
We want to bring people back.
The evidence for this is the Prophetic hadeeth

Bashiroo Wa Laa Tu'Nafiru

Give glad tidings and do not scare people away.

May ALlah(swt) keep us open minded in recognising the spectrum of broadness in our deen and benefit from the numerous springs of khayr he has blessed us with
Ameen

mospike
02-08-2005, 08:40 AM
it seems that no matter how long you been with the effort of tabligh, you do the same thing and never progess in learning the different traditional sciences of islam.


I agree with the Brother; i am an active member of the Tabligh Jamaat and the majority seem to be going nowhere in terms of learning more about deen. I am one of those who ntend Inshallah to change this from withing. My forst goal is to get the view that TABLIGH is the only way out of the minds and guide towards staying away from Compartmentalising deen.

To all the TJ's Keep up the good work and please KEEP an open mind.


o' TJ's take the Fazail approach because it is a tried and tested method from within

Abu Talaal
02-08-2005, 10:42 AM
I personally see Tabligh as a group that invites people to start practicing Islam like they're supposed to. This is great.

I don't really see them as much more than that - and I don't think they try to be much more than that but I could very well be wrong.

By the way, has anyone noticed that some people are ****** off with them? Sometimes they try a little too hard perhaps to get people to go on their outings :cheesygri

Muawiyah
02-08-2005, 11:14 AM
Or by "Jamatis" do you mean people that belong to "Jamaat i Islami"?

yeah "Jamaat i Islami" Jamatis

tazkiyyah
02-08-2005, 01:59 PM
Umm going back to the original topic.
If you open the book of fadail e a'maal...which is the compendium,primer and enchiridion of Tableegh, and spread open its pages, you will discover the chapter that deals with the merits of salaah.

Mawlana Khandalwi(alayhi rahmah) splits it into 3 sections.
One deals with those individuals who have no yearning for salaah.To these he gives many virtues for prayer.
The next deals with those who are not motivated and need SCARING....This deals with the punishments for leaving salah- some very scary ahadeeth.
And then he deals with those who pray but not in congregation, and includes virtues and threats.

I personally think he tackles the subject amazingly and offers different remedies for different patients which is synoptic, expansive and all-embracing. And how could it not be when the author is himself proficient in the sciences of the soul and also adept in the sciences of hadeeth.
When these two qualities coalesce, stunning and breathtaking things happen!!!
Its like when the energy of one set of waves is combined with the energy of others- unimaginable energy is released in the form of hydraulic power plants. This spiritual generation is happening worldwide- hidden - but truly spiritually explosive

About him the arab Ulema said...:-

Shaykh and honorable Imam; jurist and noble scholar of hadith; fragrant flower of India and Arabia; master of spiritual realities [haqiqa] and allusions [majaz]; our leader and our blessing (from Allah).” —Shaykh 'Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghudda, Halab, Syria

“Morally outstanding, hadith scholar, remnant of the predecessors and splendor of the successors, blessed Imam, caller to Allah, my master and my teacher: Shaykh Muhammad Zakariyya.” —Sayyid Muhammad Ibn 'Alawi al-Maliki, Madina Munawwara

Muawiyah
03-08-2005, 02:09 PM
we're talking about the methodology of Tablighis bro Tazkiyyah, not what's written in the tablighi nisab.

Alhumdulillah
03-08-2005, 02:36 PM
Assalamoalaykum

Brother Muawiyya, what do you mean? Tablighi Nisab is like the syllabus for the Tabligh Jamaat. The Tablighi brothers study this book in detail. Brother Tazkiyya has made an excellent point which answers the original question.

Wasalaam.

Muawiyah
03-08-2005, 03:16 PM
well, they speak on fadhail mostly, they even say "fadhail only". Tablighi jama't does not teach fighting in the way of Allah, the Tablighi nisab still has narrations regarding ghazwat - get my point?

tazkiyyah
03-08-2005, 03:17 PM
Sidi Muawiyah...You mean the gently gently encouraging approach?

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: A bedouin urinated in the mosque and some people rushed to beat him up. The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Leave him alone and pour a bucket of water over it. You have been sent to make things easy and not to make them difficult.''
[Al-Bukhari].


Allah, the Exalted, says:

"...who repress anger, and who pardon men; verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (the good-doers).'' (3:134)

"Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish (i.e., don't punish them).'' (7:199)

"The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e., Allah orders the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly) then verily he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend. But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient - and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of happiness in the Hereafter, i.e., Jannah and of a high moral character) in this world.'' (41:34,35)

"And verily, whosoever shows patience and forgives that would truly be from the things recommended by Allah.'' (42:43)

632. Ibn `Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said to Ashaj Abdul-Qais (May Allah be pleased with him), "You possess two qualities that Allah loves. These are clemency and tolerance.''

Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Allah is Forbearer and loves forbearance in all matters.''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
Aishah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Allah is Forbearer and He loves forbearance, and rewards for forbearance while He does not reward severity, and does not give for any thing besides it (forbearance).''
[Muslim]

Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Whenever gentleness is added to something, it adorns it; and whenever it is withdrawn from something, it leaves it defective.''
[Muslim].

Anas (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Make things easy and do not make them difficult, cheer the people up by conveying glad tidings to them and do not repulse (them).''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim

Jarir bin `Abdullah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "He who is deprived of forbearance and gentleness is, in fact, deprived of all good.''
[Muslim].

Abu Ya`la Shaddad bin `Aus (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Verily Allah has prescribed Ihsan (kindness) for everything. So when you kill, you must make the killing in the best manner; when you slaughter, make your slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife and give ease to his animal (in order to reduce his pain).''
[Muslim].

Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: Whenever the Prophet (PBUH) was given a choice between two matters, he would (always) choose the easier as long as it was not sinful to do so; but if it was sinful he was most strict in avoiding it. He never took revenge upon anybody for his own sake; but when Allah's Legal Bindings were outraged, he would take revenge for Allah's sake.
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Ibn Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Shall I not tell you whom the (Hell) Fire is forbidden to touch? It is forbidden to touch a man who is always accessible, having polite and tender nature.''
[At-Tirmidhii

tazkiyyah
04-08-2005, 10:59 AM
Well...The Tableegh deals in islaah, using the 6 point method.
It doesnt teach specific masail...True.
But then it doesnt make that claim....

Since the times of the Khalaf there has always been specialisation...Khanaqahs dont deal with the specific legal rulings of Ghazwaat..

Madaaris rarely engage in khanaqahi activities of islaah and discussing the depths of tasawwuf and poetry et al.

I think your confusing the issue..

Yes there are jaahil "tablighis" that claim tableegh is all the ummah needs and all else is defunct. But then there are mut'asib people in all groups and movements who, due to immersing all their energies in a particular direction, forget that things exist outside their little bubble(until it bursts)

Harris Ibn Qureshi
05-08-2005, 05:36 AM
Asalaam Alaikum

Yeah the tablighis never ever talk about the situation of the ummah, most of the members of the tabligh don't know what is going on in the world. However their are exceptions..

They also teach Ikram ul-muslimeen unfortunately it seems that learning about the muslim struggles worldwide doesn't fall into that categorie. Nonthe less the movement is good and despite it's flaws, their pros outweigh the cons. May allah bless them for bringing many non-practicing muslims back to islam. I just hope some of their ulema who are influential in the movement talk more about CHechnya,Kashmir etc and maybe even get their imams to recite dua qunoot for the opressed muslims sometimes..

Brother
05-08-2005, 06:04 AM
How do you claim that tablighees dont know what is going on in the world? In this day and age, where information can reach pretty much anywhere; I highly doubt that any if not all tablighees are well aware of what is going on. And, IN SIMPLE WORDS, whatever is going on is because of Allah SWT Nizam as well as the result of the muslim ummah's doings and being severely astrayed from the straight path.

All in all, the effort to Tabligh is without doubt noble. Not to be called a "JAAHIL" "BIASED" tablighi or anything; but if we really look into this last century, if there was anything that kept tradiotional islam going, bringing the talb of deen in youth, re-starting the desire for knowledge/ilm, preserving the sunnah and often giving re-birth to tasawwuf jamaats all over the world, the credit simply goes to the fact that Allah SWT used Tablighi Jamaat for it.

And, btw, I am not in any way a tablighi.

al-Hanbali
05-08-2005, 01:49 PM
Jazakum Allah Khairan for all of your replies.

I recall Imam al-Ghazali saying in his Ihya that Raja' (hope) is resorted to in two situations:

1. The person who is close to Tawbah but the Shaytan is telling him that he has too many sins to be saved. For this person he should be encouraged with hope.
2. The person who is getting lazy (although normally active) in worship. He is told about the Fada'il to increase his hope and push him to do more.

taalibah
05-08-2005, 06:04 PM
bismillah, was-salaatu ala rasulillaah.

An important point here, which I think is often overlooked by many involved in the jamaa'at ut-tabligh, is that there are different methods in which to approach different people. I agree with the 'fadaa'il-view' when we are looking at people who have no real concept of Islam, people, who, if you told them the puinishment for missing one salaah, really couldn't care less. This is because, in my opinion from what I have seen, there is frankly no other approach that works.

What I have a problem with, is this approach being used for everyone. So, like it was mentioned before, you have people who have spent 30-40 years saying the same thing over and over again. They could recite practically the whole of the fadaa'il a'maal by heart, yet not read the qur'an with proper tajweed, yet still not be learning Arabic, yet still have no decent knwoledge of fiqh. This is completely ridiculous, and I believe entirely against the traching of Mawlana Ilyaas rahimahullah. His vision was of a movement, a means to reaching the goal, he never ever claimed it was the only way, or the place where everything ends.

After the initial stage, I think for the majority of Muslims, it is only fear that gets us along. When I wake up for Fajr in winter, I usually think of the consequence of not praying, rather than the consequence of praying, and only the fear can overcome your desires.
I think there is a stage after, for example, when you wake up for qiyaam ul-layl, it isn't a fear that gets you up, but a hope, and a desire for reward. So in these extra acts you tell people about the fadaa'il and what they will get out of it.

If you miss out he 'scaring' stage, it doesn't really work. And I have seen this many many times, and there are even some from the jama'ah that say "we do amr bil-ma'ruf but not nahy anil-munkar because we don't want to turn people away" wal-iyaadhi billaah. We can only follow the example of Rasulullah salAllahu alayhi wa sallam, and he told people about the rewards, but also about the punishments, he told people to do good, but also forbade them when they did wrong. Obviously we have to use hikmah and talk to people on their level, but there is a feeling sometimes that some concepts (such as the no nahy anil-munkar one) seem to go round unhindered within the jama'ah creating much confusion or the common people.

wAllahu a'lam.

Abu Suliman
05-08-2005, 09:44 PM
A lot of people misunderstand the tablighi jamaat because of what they see in those who are in this jamaat.we should not judge this jamaat according to those who partcipate in it rather what the leaders and ulema of this jamaat say.
And i have noticed it is competely different what the awaam and the leaders and ulema say.The ulema say the effort of the tablighi jamaat is to revive all branches of Islam so those who join this jamaat can make effort so they know about the teachings of Islam.
I f you look at the 6 points of the jamaat one of them is ilm & Zikr ie they should increase there ilm by going to ulema and study more about Islam, but unfortunely many dont do that and rest of us get immpresion that they only stick to the tablighi jamaat way.
But also Alhumdulilah alot of people have become ulema and huffaz because they got hidayaa through the effort of jamaat and went further to increase there ilm.

Harris Ibn Qureshi
06-08-2005, 03:05 AM
LOL br brother chill out. Your saying exactly whatsome extremist tj's have said, That Tableeghis are the only ones who brought sunnah and preserved traidtional islam in our time. Subhnallah now thats hilarious. Even though they have preserved traditional islam, their not THE ONLY ONES..

None the less like Abd says big up to Maluana ILyas and the whle deoband movement.

BTW-I am not a tabligh and i also spent some time with them and also like them alot.However, like other groups their not perfect...

tazkiyyah
06-08-2005, 12:44 PM
I have many times responded to similar things-we are going round in circles.

Try getting hold of shaykh zakarriya khandalwi's work
Jamaat e tableegh pay etheraazaat kay jawabaat

It answers all this -and whats more shaykh zakariyya was himself not a tableeghi but more into the khanaqahi sufi chishti nizaam

tazkiyyah
06-08-2005, 12:52 PM
[
What I have a problem with, is this approach being used for everyone. So, like it was mentioned before, you have people who have spent 30-40 years saying the same thing over and over again.
____

Thats the whole concept of tadhkira- u have people in sufi orders that will do the same wird for years
______

They could recite practically the whole of the fadaa'il a'maal by heart, yet not read the qur'an with proper tajweed, yet still not be learning Arabic
+______
Learning arabic is not a fard ain at the moment in the hanafee madhab.
The salafis have good arabic knowledge and tajweed and yet are deviant!
Whats more the chapter on fadail e quran has a section on the importance of pronouncing the letters with correct tajweed.
_________________________________________________
, yet still have no decent knwoledge of fiqh.
_________________
They should learn the basics to traverse the journey of Life-TRue.Agreed.
There is much improvement in this in england at least.
Sadly one finds amongts non tableeghis that whilsrt ulema have circles teaching knowledge...very few people attend because there is no zeal.
Tableegh can certainly fill mosque circles
_______


After the initial stage, I think for the majority of Muslims, it is only fear that gets us along. When I wake up for Fajr in winter, I usually think of the consequence of not praying, rather than the consequence of praying, and only the fear can overcome your desires.
_____
Many people are motivated by different things.
Love can be important too..Shaykh Thanwi's malfuzat have an incident of a professor that was about to leave islam , then he discovered the mathnawi of mawlana rumi which overpowered him with love.


If you miss out he 'scaring' stage, it doesn't really work. And I have seen this many many times, and there are even some from the jama'ah that say "we do amr bil-ma'ruf but not nahy anil-munkar because we don't want to turn people away" wal-iyaadhi billaah.
____

Tableegh's job is not amr bil maruf and nahi anil munkar.
They simply dont have the knowledge.Its for the ulema to do that.
This iswhat mawlana khandalwi and mawlana thanwi said.
tableegh is just an alarm clock.SImple- it rings and tingles and says..Wake up your gonna die...get ready
The rest is upto us

MinSid
06-08-2005, 03:00 PM
Those who have any "step backs" concerning the effort of Tableegh, then go to Nizamuddin, Raiwind & Kakrail Markazez and discuss with the Ulama.

Doesn't make sense debating on this forum about a mere issue.

al-Hanbali
07-08-2005, 03:21 PM
A lot of people misunderstand the tablighi jamaat because of what they see in those who are in this jamaat.we should not judge this jamaat according to those who partcipate in it rather what the leaders and ulema of this jamaat say.

I see what you are saying but im not sure that i agree 100%. As it is said, the fruit doesnt fall far from the tree. If you find the majority of a group taking a certain approach, rest assured that they are getting it from somewhere.

In no way am I implying anything bad toawards the Masha'ikh of the Tabligh, but somewhere, somehow, the brothers of the Tabligh get their ideas.

Take an example, if we did a cut and paste of your quote above, and then did a cut and replace on the word Tablighi Jamaat and replaced it with "Salafis" this is what it would look like:


A lot of people misunderstand the salafis because of what they see in those who are in this jamaat.we should not judge this jamaat according to those who partcipate in it rather what the leaders and ulema of this jamaat say.

Perhaps if someone said that we would reply differently. We would probably say: what the salafis say, their scholars say. Their highhandedness with the scholars of the past and the assumption of Ijtihad come directly from their scholars.

Everyone plays a role for the upliftment of this Ummah. The problem is when one group thinks that it is the only group doing any good(I mean the goups that are working for the Deen like the Tabligh, Fuqaha', Mujahidun, buisness people who spend on the good causes-not those who bring the Ummah down like the Salafis or the modernists)

Abu Suliman
07-08-2005, 06:34 PM
I see what you are saying but im not sure that i agree 100%. As it is said, the fruit doesnt fall far from the tree. If you find the majority of a group taking a certain approach, rest assured that they are getting it from somewhere.


I know what you mean recently i went to the tablghi Markaz and the leaders and ulema were giving them naseeha on how to do the work and they blasted them for not respecting ulema and learning from them.
I have been and seen the people who are with this jamaat when you are with this jamaat you want everyone to join this effort like any other group will do who want everyone to join them so it is natural if the thinking comes that this is the only way.
The more knowlege you have the less narrow minded you become and know that there is more to Islam then just what you or your jamaat does. We should all strive to do every act of Islam and help our fellow muslim who are in other efforts of Islam instead of looking down upon them.

Frazza
08-08-2005, 03:56 AM
I read this forum a lot, but this is my first time posting...

I'm not an expert in the efforts of Tablighi Jamaat, but from my limited understanding, there are very valid and important reasons why they may outwardly appear not to worry about world issues. As it stands, the blessed efforts of this group are all over the world, and alhamdolillah Allah SWT has protected the workers thus far from significant hindrance.

As soon as the brothers in this effort get too much into politics, I expect that it will also be attacked by enemies of Islam. As a grassroots effort, the work has been extremely successful, but as soon as it goes out of it's boundaries, things get risky. At the same time, I know many brothers in the effort who will not publicly make statements about world issues, but are probably doing more donating to charities to help the people suffering in the world. Most of us don't see this because of the ikhlaas of the brothers involved.

Also, regarding the oft-repeated criticism that brothers from Tablighi jama'at don't have much knowledge, I find that to be generally false. However, it is true that there are some who emphasize so much on knowing the words of the six points without actually knowing the details of it. The quality they emphasize regarding Knowledge and Remembrance asks of them to gain at least that much knowledge which will allow them to distinguish between halal and haram, pure and impure, etc.. Not everyone needs to be an 'alim, but the efforts do strongly emphasize that one when is in doubt, that they must consult them.

Ultimately, the effort is really the stepping stone from which people develop the desire to learn and practice, from where people will either stay in the effort or seek other Islamic pursuits. Either way, people have benefitted more from this effort than perhaps any other effort in the world throughout the 20th century. It has done wonders for young muslims here in North America, though much of what they have done goes unrecognized. Again, because of the ikhlaas of the workers, they don't go around announcing about all the masaajid they have produced, all the 'ulama and huffaz that started out with their effort.

May Allah SWT protect them and enable all of us to benefit from all sources of good.

Abu Suliman
08-08-2005, 02:08 PM
.

Ultimately, the effort is really the stepping stone from which people develop the desire to learn and practice, from where people will either stay in the effort or seek other Islamic pursuits. Either way, people have benefitted more from this effort than perhaps any other effort in the world throughout the 20th century. It has done wonders for young muslims here in North America, though much of what they have done goes unrecognized. Again, because of the ikhlaas of the workers, they don't go around announcing about all the masaajid they have produced, all the 'ulama and huffaz that started out with their effort.

May Allah SWT protect them and enable all of us to benefit from all sources of good.

I agree with you brother and Aameen to your dua.

tazkiyyah
09-08-2005, 08:25 AM
Ameen...Thumma Ameen.


Mustafaa Jaan-e-rehmat pay laakhon Salaam
Sham3a-e-bazm-e-hidaayat pay Laakhon Salaam

Countless Blessings be Upon the Chosen One-The Essence of Mercy
The Shining Candle of Guidance Of the Prophetic Assembly

(Imaam Ahmad Rida Khan
Alayhi Rahmah...)

Hamood
11-08-2005, 04:53 AM
Once again, the success of one group does not necassarily mean they are free from mistakes.

Many many tablighis are anti-tasawwuf. Why? Even though the elders were hardcore sufis. Is it because the new generation of tablighi scholars does not emphasize on tasawwuf?

The topic is after all Jamaat ut tabligh and Tasawwuf.

tazkiyyah
11-08-2005, 02:37 PM
Everything is both simpler than we can imagine,
and more complicated that we can conceive.
- Goethe

tazkiyyah
11-08-2005, 02:39 PM
We struggle with the complexities
and avoid the simplicities.
- Norman Vincent Peale

Einstein was a man who could ask immensely simple questions. And what his work showed was that when the answers are simple, too, then you can hear God thinking.”

~ Jacob Bronowski
Historian

“Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated.”

~ Confucius

Straightforwardness and simplicity are in keeping with goodness.”

~ Seneca
from Letters from a Stoic

The ability to simplify means to eliminate
the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak.
- Hans Hofmann, Introduction to the Bootstrap, 1993

Man is an over-complicated organism. If he is doomed to extinction
he will die out for want of simplicity.
- Ezra Pound

Poor and content is rich and rich enough.
- William Shakespeare

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
- Leonardo da Vinci

kshahz
05-03-2012, 12:17 AM
I read this forum a lot, but this is my first time posting...

I'm not an expert in the efforts of Tablighi Jamaat, but from my limited understanding, there are very valid and important reasons why they may outwardly appear not to worry about world issues. As it stands, the blessed efforts of this group are all over the world, and alhamdolillah Allah SWT has protected the workers thus far from significant hindrance.

As soon as the brothers in this effort get too much into politics, I expect that it will also be attacked by enemies of Islam. As a grassroots effort, the work has been extremely successful, but as soon as it goes out of it's boundaries, things get risky. At the same time, I know many brothers in the effort who will not publicly make statements about world issues, but are probably doing more donating to charities to help the people suffering in the world. Most of us don't see this because of the ikhlaas of the brothers involved.

Also, regarding the oft-repeated criticism that brothers from Tablighi jama'at don't have much knowledge, I find that to be generally false. However, it is true that there are some who emphasize so much on knowing the words of the six points without actually knowing the details of it. The quality they emphasize regarding Knowledge and Remembrance asks of them to gain at least that much knowledge which will allow them to distinguish between halal and haram, pure and impure, etc.. Not everyone needs to be an 'alim, but the efforts do strongly emphasize that one when is in doubt, that they must consult them.

Ultimately, the effort is really the stepping stone from which people develop the desire to learn and practice, from where people will either stay in the effort or seek other Islamic pursuits. Either way, people have benefitted more from this effort than perhaps any other effort in the world throughout the 20th century. It has done wonders for young muslims here in North America, though much of what they have done goes unrecognized. Again, because of the ikhlaas of the workers, they don't go around announcing about all the masaajid they have produced, all the 'ulama and huffaz that started out with their effort.

May Allah SWT protect them and enable all of us to benefit from all sources of good.
Asalam o Alaikum Brother,

I am new to Ottawa, just want to know is there any tablighi markaz here.

Jazak'Allah,
Kashif.

The Fake Shaykh
29-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Once again, the success of one group does not necassarily mean they are free from mistakes.

Many many tablighis are anti-tasawwuf. Why? Even though the elders were hardcore sufis. Is it because the new generation of tablighi scholars does not emphasize on tasawwuf?

The topic is after all Jamaat ut tabligh and Tasawwuf.

And the new generation of non-tabligee ulama are also in the same boat

Sulaiman84
29-05-2012, 03:58 PM
Assalamu alaykum

Tableeghi brothers have high esteem for ahle-tasawwuf and shuyookh of tasawwuf. What we are taught is that mujahidah in tasawwuf and mujahidah in Tableegh are aimed at achieving the same goal.

So we can say that they are parallel paths.

That is what our br faizanakram is trying to explain.


صدقت

purana.paapi
01-06-2012, 10:48 AM
Can we have a mixture of both .

Both sit & learn from each other and teach.

I mean a master is tasawwuf doing work of tableegh & vice versa

AbdAllah313
01-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Asalaam Alaikum

Yeah the tablighis never ever talk about the situation of the ummah, most of the members of the tabligh don't know what is going on in the world. However their are exceptions..

They also teach Ikram ul-muslimeen unfortunately it seems that learning about the muslim struggles worldwide doesn't fall into that categorie. Nonthe less the movement is good and despite it's flaws, their pros outweigh the cons. May allah bless them for bringing many non-practicing muslims back to islam. I just hope some of their ulema who are influential in the movement talk more about CHechnya,Kashmir etc and maybe even get their imams to recite dua qunoot for the opressed muslims sometimes..

Brother this is the work of Nubuwat ok....
in nubwat work its not depend upon situation the nubuwat work goes with Allah's command and Pophets style.:-)

Talhah
02-06-2012, 08:29 AM
Assalamualaikum brother...!
well brother tassawuff follows tariq and tabligh follows sabeel...!
tassawuff is the way of saleh salf (ulema from tabeen till now)
and tabligh is the way of prophets (alaihimussalaam) and suhabah (Allah be pleased with them)(companions of our beloved prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam))...!
Maulana Manzoor Nomani Rh.A. in his book Qurb-Elahi Kay Do Rastay that the closeness to Allah By Qurb-e-Faraiz i.e. the effort of deen or tabligh is much more than the closeness to Allah By Qurb-e-Nawafil i.e. by tasawuff...!
Practicing tabligh in the way suhabah (radhiyallahu Anhum) did i.e. the the way our elders say will lead a muslim to completely reform himself...In other words practicing tabligh will reform a muslim in the same way tasawuff does...but practicing tasawuff will not reform a muslim in the way tabligh does...becoz tabligh includes islah (complete reformation) as well as fikr (worry) of others and tasawuff only contains islah...!
Thus masters of tabligh are already masters of tasawuff but the vice-versa is not true...!
Clearly...Maulana Illyas Rh.A, Maulana Yousuf Rh.A, Maulana Inamul-Hassan Rh.A, Maulana Umar Palanpuri Rh.A, Maulana Saeed Ahmad Khan Sb Rh.A, Munshiji Ala-Data Rh.A(Ameer of 1st jamaat which came J&K,India in 1950's 0r 60's), Maulana Saad Sb DB, Haji Abdul Wahab Sb DB, Hafiz Patel Sb DB, Hazrat Ameer Sb DB(Ameer Of J&K, India), Peer Shamsudin Sb DB (One of the elders in J&K, India), etc (these all) are elders of tabligh or masters of tabligh and they are also masters of tasawuff...you may listen to karguzari from elders of your side of all or some of them about their tabligh work and qurbani and their ruhaaniyat (closeness to Allah or level in tasawuff)...!

I have attached the book...urdu knowing people may read and may translate it to english so that others too can read it...!
7931

:salam:

Brother, unfortunately, you seem to have many misconceptions and misunderstandings. Its better to remain silent on matters less known to oneself.

Before i begin, let me make it clear that Tablighi Jamat is indeed a very blessed Jamat, especially in these times of Fitnah. It was founded by our great Akaabir (elders) and has enjoyed support by many other such Akaabir and Ulamaa'. Its achievements are also quite known. There does not seems to be a need to expound the aforementioned points.

Now, lets come to the points where you slipped..

Firstly, Tasawwuf is not just all about "Nawafil". Rather, it forms a very small part of it. It bascially deals with the Tazkiyyah or reformation of one's heart and character. This includes attaining Allah's :taala: love, Rasool's :saw: love, attaining Ikhlaas (thus abstaining from Riyaa' or Show off), clearing one's heart from the love of those which are besides Allah (i.e. those whose love is antagonist to Allah's), creating Tawaazu' (humbleness) etc. Now if you see, this forms a very integral part, or it will be more appropriate to say "Rooh", of the Shari'ah. This is also among the Maqasid-i-Nabuwwah (duties of Prophethood). The primary duties of Nabi :saw: for which he was sent by Allah have been mentioned in the following Aayah of Surah Al Baqarah (Aayat number 128):


And, our Lord, raise in their midst a Messenger from among them, who should recite to them Your verses, and
teach them the Book and the wisdom, and cleanse them of all impurities. Indeed You, and You alone, are the
All-Mighty, the All-Wise..

Translation by Mufti Taqi Usmani

The original Arabic phrase for the translation marked bold in Roman format is "Wa Yuzakkeehim" i.e. the Nabi :saw: does Tazkiyah of the Sahaabah.

So now you can understand the blatant flaw that you made while making the following statement:


tassawuff is the way of saleh salf (ulema from tabeen till now)
and tabligh is the way of prophets (alaihimussalaam) and suhabah (Allah be pleased with them)(companions of our beloved prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam))...!

What you wrote above will also imply that the work of Nabi and Sahabah was not carried on further by the later generations uptill now, until the Tablighi jamat appeared. Na'oozu billah min Zaalik (we seek refuge in Allah from such statements).

Another important misunderstanding that many laymen among tablighi jamat have got is that they believe that the only method of doing Tabligh is that which is according to the method designed by Maulana Ilyas :rahim:,
. Whereas, this is not true. Tableegh means "conveying" of Islam. This does not necessarily means to convey Islam by going out for 3 days, 40 days etc. The method of Tablighi Jamat is very beneficial, indeed, but that does not means that its the "only" method of doing Tableegh. For example if the Ulama are giving lectures in a Masjid then they too are doing Da'wah and Tableegh though they may not be doing it under the rules of Tablighi Jamat. Moreover, Tablighi Jamat restricts to itself to 6 points while there are many other aspects of deen besides those 6 points. The Tabligh of those aspects is carried out by other Ulama and people. Now for example the Tablighiz convey the virtues of Salaah (Namaaz; Daily Prayers) to the laymen but conveying the Masaa'il (various rulings) of Salaah is not a duty which they have undertaken. The obligation of conveying the Masaai'l will therefore be fulfilled by Ulamaa'. So the obligation of Tableegh is not restricted to Tablighi Jamat.

I must make myself clear once more that i am not against the method of Tablighi Jamat. Who am i to oppose it when it was formed by one of the greatest and most pious Ulama and has been getting support from similar personalities! The method of Da'wah of Tablighi Jamat was restricted to 6 points by Maulana Ilyas since he felt that the Ummah is getting void of even basics of deen. So there is a dire need to emphasize on such basics which he tried to sum up in 6 points. Maulana's aim was to create a Talab (thirst) of Deen among the 'Awaam (masses). If a person is not interested in Salaah, then it will be not much useful to teach him its Masaa'il, nor will he be motivated enough to learn them. So there's a need to make him realize the importance of Salaah. If he starts appreciating the need to offer Salaah five times daily then he will himself worry to offer it in the correct manner and will therefore seek guidance from Ulamaa'. Maulana Ilyas's aim was to work in this manner on the most basic aspects of deen. If one gets his base made strong, it can be expected from him that he can pursue further with other aspects of Deen like learning Masaa'il etc. Maulana Ilyas himself realised the importance of other aspects of Deen as well, that is why he associated himself with Tasawwuf (on the hands of Maulana Rahseed Ahmad Gangohi) and even Jihad (which today, unfortunatley, many people who claim association with Tablighi Jamat oppose in some way or the other). The latter aspect of his life has been described here (http://www.central-mosque.com/biographies/milyas.htm) as such:


Together with Zikr, Saga (spiritual exercises and exertions) Nawafil and Ibadaat, Maulana Mohammad Ilyas was, also, infused with the spirit of Jehad. Throughout his life, he was never without it, and had, in fact, taken the pledge of Jehad at the hand of Maulana Mahmood Hasan for that very reason.

Maulana Manzoor Nu'mani's article does not supports your calims. You would have understood the reasons for it by now.

Wallahu A'lam

So i hope now that you will have some of your major misconceptions cleared

I apologize if any of my words hurt your feelings. Do remember this sinful person in your du'aaz as well..

Wassalamu alaikum

syamuj
02-06-2012, 03:51 PM
Sometimes a thing that bothers Me is that some of Us has brought a big gap between both the terminology and the real essence of being a 'wali' and 'a da'ee'.As if a wali is not da'ee and dae'ee is not a wali.We can say 'All walis are da'ees but all da'ees are not walis'.Great figures like Khawaja Moinuddin Chisti :rahim: has done so much of work of dawat although he was the one through which one of the great silsilah of tasawwuf came into existence.
To put in simple words 'Tabligh' is incomplete without tasawwuf(by tasawwuf i mean the methodolgy followed by silsilahs in tasawwuf like zikr,muraqabah) and vice-versa.

syamuj
02-06-2012, 09:37 PM
Assalamu alaykum

You have said all Walees are Daees. Do you mean to say all of them who are in tasawwuf are Awliya and so they all are daees. Can you please explain that.

:ws:
I mean Wilayath is a status which cannot be achieved without executing the responsibility of Dawah.So, if someone is a wali in a true sense then he has to be a da'ee and thus should have the same 'fikr' and 'gham' for Ummah which Nabi :saw: use to have and like any other Muslim who understands the importance of Dawah.

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 08:23 AM
:salam:

Brother, unfortunately, you seem to have many misconceptions and misunderstandings. Its better to remain silent on matters less known to oneself.

Before i begin, let me make it clear that Tablighi Jamat is indeed a very blessed Jamat, especially in these times of Fitnah. It was founded by our great Akaabir (elders) and has enjoyed support by many other such Akaabir and Ulamaa'. Its achievements are also quite known. There does not seems to be a need to expound the aforementioned points.

Now, lets come to the points where you slipped..

Firstly, Tasawwuf is not just all about "Nawafil". Rather, it forms a very small part of it. It bascially deals with the Tazkiyyah or reformation of one's heart and character. This includes attaining Allah's :taala: love, Rasool's :saw: love, attaining Ikhlaas (thus abstaining from Riyaa' or Show off), clearing one's heart from the love of those which are besides Allah (i.e. those whose love is antagonist to Allah's), creating Tawaazu' (humbleness) etc. Now if you see, this forms a very integral part, or it will be more appropriate to say "Rooh", of the Shari'ah. This is also among the Maqasid-i-Nabuwwah (duties of Prophethood). The primary duties of Nabi :saw: for which he was sent by Allah have been mentioned in the following Aayah of Surah Al Baqarah (Aayat number 128):



The original Arabic phrase for the translation marked bold in Roman format is "Wa Yuzakkeehim" i.e. the Nabi :saw: does Tazkiyah of the Sahaabah.

So now you can understand the blatant flaw that you made while making the following statement:



What you wrote above will also imply that the work of Nabi and Sahabah was not carried on further by the later generations uptill now, until the Tablighi jamat appeared. Na'oozu billah min Zaalik (we seek refuge in Allah from such statements).

Another important misunderstanding that many laymen among tablighi jamat have got is that they believe that the only method of doing Tabligh is that which is according to the method designed by Maulana Ilyas :rahim:,
. Whereas, this is not true. Tableegh means "conveying" of Islam. This does not necessarily means to convey Islam by going out for 3 days, 40 days etc. The method of Tablighi Jamat is very beneficial, indeed, but that does not means that its the "only" method of doing Tableegh. For example if the Ulama are giving lectures in a Masjid then they too are doing Da'wah and Tableegh though they may not be doing it under the rules of Tablighi Jamat. Moreover, Tablighi Jamat restricts to itself to 6 points while there are many other aspects of deen besides those 6 points. The Tabligh of those aspects is carried out by other Ulama and people. Now for example the Tablighiz convey the virtues of Salaah (Namaaz; Daily Prayers) to the laymen but conveying the Masaa'il (various rulings) of Salaah is not a duty which they have undertaken. The obligation of conveying the Masaai'l will therefore be fulfilled by Ulamaa'. So the obligation of Tableegh is not restricted to Tablighi Jamat.

I must make myself clear once more that i am not against the method of Tablighi Jamat. Who am i to oppose it when it was formed by one of the greatest and most pious Ulama and has been getting support from similar personalities! The method of Da'wah of Tablighi Jamat was restricted to 6 points by Maulana Ilyas since he felt that the Ummah is getting void of even basics of deen. So there is a dire need to emphasize on such basics which he tried to sum up in 6 points. Maulana's aim was to create a Talab (thirst) of Deen among the 'Awaam (masses). If a person is not interested in Salaah, then it will be not much useful to teach him its Masaa'il, nor will he be motivated enough to learn them. So there's a need to make him realize the importance of Salaah. If he starts appreciating the need to offer Salaah five times daily then he will himself worry to offer it in the correct manner and will therefore seek guidance from Ulamaa'. Maulana Ilyas's aim was to work in this manner on the most basic aspects of deen. If one gets his base made strong, it can be expected from him that he can pursue further with other aspects of Deen like learning Masaa'il etc. Maulana Ilyas himself realised the importance of other aspects of Deen as well, that is why he associated himself with Tasawwuf (on the hands of Maulana Rahseed Ahmad Gangohi) and even Jihad (which today, unfortunatley, many people who claim association with Tablighi Jamat oppose in some way or the other). The latter aspect of his life has been described here (http://www.central-mosque.com/biographies/milyas.htm) as such:



Maulana Manzoor Nu'mani's article does not supports your calims. You would have understood the reasons for it by now.

Wallahu A'lam

So i hope now that you will have some of your major misconceptions cleared

I apologize if any of my words hurt your feelings. Do remember this sinful person in your du'aaz as well..

Wassalamu alaikum

Brother Talha

Did u spend 4 month???

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 10:55 AM
:salam:

Brother, unfortunately, you seem to have many misconceptions and misunderstandings. Its better to remain silent on matters less known to oneself.

Before i begin, let me make it clear that Tablighi Jamat is indeed a very blessed Jamat, especially in these times of Fitnah. It was founded by our great Akaabir (elders) and has enjoyed support by many other such Akaabir and Ulamaa'. Its achievements are also quite known. There does not seems to be a need to expound the aforementioned points.

Now, lets come to the points where you slipped..

Firstly, Tasawwuf is not just all about "Nawafil". Rather, it forms a very small part of it. It bascially deals with the Tazkiyyah or reformation of one's heart and character. This includes attaining Allah's :taala: love, Rasool's :saw: love, attaining Ikhlaas (thus abstaining from Riyaa' or Show off), clearing one's heart from the love of those which are besides Allah (i.e. those whose love is antagonist to Allah's), creating Tawaazu' (humbleness) etc. Now if you see, this forms a very integral part, or it will be more appropriate to say "Rooh", of the Shari'ah. This is also among the Maqasid-i-Nabuwwah (duties of Prophethood). The primary duties of Nabi :saw: for which he was sent by Allah have been mentioned in the following Aayah of Surah Al Baqarah (Aayat number 128):



The original Arabic phrase for the translation marked bold in Roman format is "Wa Yuzakkeehim" i.e. the Nabi :saw: does Tazkiyah of the Sahaabah.

So now you can understand the blatant flaw that you made while making the following statement:



What you wrote above will also imply that the work of Nabi and Sahabah was not carried on further by the later generations uptill now, until the Tablighi jamat appeared. Na'oozu billah min Zaalik (we seek refuge in Allah from such statements).

Another important misunderstanding that many laymen among tablighi jamat have got is that they believe that the only method of doing Tabligh is that which is according to the method designed by Maulana Ilyas :rahim:,
. Whereas, this is not true. Tableegh means "conveying" of Islam. This does not necessarily means to convey Islam by going out for 3 days, 40 days etc. The method of Tablighi Jamat is very beneficial, indeed, but that does not means that its the "only" method of doing Tableegh. For example if the Ulama are giving lectures in a Masjid then they too are doing Da'wah and Tableegh though they may not be doing it under the rules of Tablighi Jamat. Moreover, Tablighi Jamat restricts to itself to 6 points while there are many other aspects of deen besides those 6 points. The Tabligh of those aspects is carried out by other Ulama and people. Now for example the Tablighiz convey the virtues of Salaah (Namaaz; Daily Prayers) to the laymen but conveying the Masaa'il (various rulings) of Salaah is not a duty which they have undertaken. The obligation of conveying the Masaai'l will therefore be fulfilled by Ulamaa'. So the obligation of Tableegh is not restricted to Tablighi Jamat.

I must make myself clear once more that i am not against the method of Tablighi Jamat. Who am i to oppose it when it was formed by one of the greatest and most pious Ulama and has been getting support from similar personalities! The method of Da'wah of Tablighi Jamat was restricted to 6 points by Maulana Ilyas since he felt that the Ummah is getting void of even basics of deen. So there is a dire need to emphasize on such basics which he tried to sum up in 6 points. Maulana's aim was to create a Talab (thirst) of Deen among the 'Awaam (masses). If a person is not interested in Salaah, then it will be not much useful to teach him its Masaa'il, nor will he be motivated enough to learn them. So there's a need to make him realize the importance of Salaah. If he starts appreciating the need to offer Salaah five times daily then he will himself worry to offer it in the correct manner and will therefore seek guidance from Ulamaa'. Maulana Ilyas's aim was to work in this manner on the most basic aspects of deen. If one gets his base made strong, it can be expected from him that he can pursue further with other aspects of Deen like learning Masaa'il etc. Maulana Ilyas himself realised the importance of other aspects of Deen as well, that is why he associated himself with Tasawwuf (on the hands of Maulana Rahseed Ahmad Gangohi) and even Jihad (which today, unfortunatley, many people who claim association with Tablighi Jamat oppose in some way or the other). The latter aspect of his life has been described here (http://www.central-mosque.com/biographies/milyas.htm) as such:



Maulana Manzoor Nu'mani's article does not supports your calims. You would have understood the reasons for it by now.

Wallahu A'lam

So i hope now that you will have some of your major misconceptions cleared

I apologize if any of my words hurt your feelings. Do remember this sinful person in your du'aaz as well..

Wassalamu alaikum

Mashallah very well put. Agree with all of it!
:jazak:

sudoku
04-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Brother Talha

Did u spend 4 month???I am not sure what difference that would make?

My father spent 4 months, countless 40 and 3 days, almost every Christmas and Summer holidays for at least 20 years in Jamaat. He's what you'd call a 'purana' saathi.

However he'd probably say the same thing br Talha has written, which if I may add, is brilliantly written, in my opinion.

Of course, now that he has started teaching Qur'aan full time, ironically, he is 'no longer doing the work of Allah and his Rasul :saw:'. <- Actual words of a saathi. :astagh:

From the myriads of threads on these subjects, people should by now realize that different fields of Islam are not separate entities; they are just pieces of a whole. Moulana Yunus Patel :rahma: would compare the different fields to an army. Not everyone is on the frontline. We have soldiers, we have medics, we have spies, cooks, pilots etc etc. All of them together make the army.

I think people should listen to this talk. -> Respecting the Works of Deen by Hazrat Moulana Yunus Patel :rahma: (http://yunuspatel.net/Audio/2ndHalf2006/ramadaan/rz-19-10-2006-DeenWorks.mp3)

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Yea it will make deference because after spending 4 month person will understand a little bit about this work....

I am not saying this is the only work which is the way of Hidayat there are lot of work's around the world is going but.....
but this is the very easy way to get hidayat to get closer to Allah

Obviously we should respect all works
and after all 10000 %%% This is the work of Allah and Rasul Pbuh this is not any Jamat work not Nizamuddin Markaz Work not Maulana Ilyas Work....

Spend 4 month its my humble request :rolleyes:

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Yea it will make deference because after spending 4 month person will understand a little bit about this work....

I am not saying this is the only work which is the way of Hidayat there are lot of work's around the world is going but.....
but this is the very easy way to get hidayat to get closer to Allah

Obviously we should respect all works
and after all 10000 %%% This is the work of Allah and Rasul Pbuh this is not any Jamat work not Nizamuddin Markaz Work not Maulana Ilyas Work....

Spend 4 month its my humble request :rolleyes:

:salam:

but sister sudoku's father spent 4 months and much more - and is a purana sathi. so that means he understood the work, but he would agree with brother talha.

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 11:56 AM
:salam:

but sister sudoku's father spent 4 months and much more - and is a purana sathi. so that means he understood the work, but he would agree with brother talha.

Hazrat Maulana Ilyas RA is bani of this work he said " I dint Even Understand 1000% OF THIS WORK" then how can we understand just spending 4 month....

I said if we ll spend 4 month so a little bit we ll understand about this work

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Hazrat Maulana Ilyas RA is bani of this work he said " I dint Even Understand 1000% OF THIS WORK" then how can we understand just spending 4 month....

I said if we ll spend 4 month so a little bit we ll understand about this work

moulana ilyas (ra) also used to make some jamaats spend time in the khanqah after returning from khurooj. moulana ilyas (ra) also implied this work is a stepping stone for the laymen. in the time of moulana ilyas (ra) the walls of nizammuddin used to vibrate with the loud zikr of the chisti's every morning. moulana ilyas (ra) also said to spend time with the ulama and mashaikh. moulana ilyas (ra) also had zeal for jihad. most of this an be read about in his malfoozaat.

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 12:07 PM
mashallah i see ahmed bhai is lurking here!

sudoku
04-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Every work of deen is the work of Allah and His Rasul, be it in a khanqah, in tableeghi jamaat, madressah, or on the battlefield.

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 12:12 PM
moulana ilyas (ra) also used to make some jamaats spend time in the khanqah after returning from khurooj. moulana ilyas (ra) also implied this work is a stepping stone for the laymen. in the time of moulana ilyas (ra) the walls of nizammuddin used to vibrate with the loud zikr of the chisti's every morning. moulana ilyas (ra) also said to spend time with the ulama and mashaikh. moulana ilyas (ra) also had zeal for jihad. most of this an be read about in his malfoozaat.

Yes I agree

Because in 6 point's zikr is there and 2 times tasbi i.e. morning and evening this is for just practice if any one want's to do more than this then no objection from elders

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Yes I agree

Because in 6 point's zikr is there and 2 times tasbi i.e. morning and evening this is for just practice if any one want's to do more than this then no objection from elders

so you dont disagree with brother talha?

cool

bugmenot
04-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Every work of deen is the work of Allah and His Rasul, be it in a khanqah, in tableeghi jamaat, madressah, or on the battlefield.
Let's all agree on this and end the discussion.

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 12:33 PM
so you dont disagree with brother talha?

cool

Main problem is that people thinks Tablig work is against Tassawwuf but its wrong

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Main problem is that people thinks Tablig work is against Tassawwuf but its wrong

main problem is EVERYONE thinks that their own effort is the best and most important.

every effort puts down every other effort whether it is openly or behind the scenes.

this is true with tablighis, jihadis, sufis. i have spent time with all of them and seen this with my own eyes.

AbdAllah313
04-06-2012, 12:59 PM
main problem is EVERYONE thinks that their own effort is the best and most important.

every effort puts down every other effort whether it is openly or behind the scenes.

this is true with tablighis, jihadis, sufis. i have spent time with all of them and seen this with my own eyes.

I agree tabligi people think like that
but not Tablighi Elders
My humble request is pls listen Maulana Saad DB bayans
If any one wants to listen what Tabligh is the people should listen Maulana Saa'd Sahaba bayan and Read Hayatussahaba and Malfuzat of Maulana Ilyas and Yusuf Kandhalvi RA

abuhajira
04-06-2012, 05:28 PM
:salam:

This is not a place for discussion on TJ's issues. There is no benefit. You are correct that the elders do not allow internet, BUT you do fail to realize that it is elder's cassettes, CD's, MP3s which are spread far and wide. It is also the current giants of TJ like Ml. Tariq Jameel Saheb sallamahu ta'ala who's youtube HD crisp clear videos are advertised all over our forum. It is ALSO the same elders of different marakiz, who are using every available technology for travelling (cars, planes etc.).

The point is brother, there is no point making cliche remarks which are pointless in any discussion about TJ. TJ's ideology and manhaj is AMAL, not discussions. So please suppress the emotions and let targheeb be targheeb. Those who will join the effort will join it. Those who will chose to drink the anwaar of other anhaar (tasawuf, ta'leem etc) will do so.

Finally, I do wish to comment on your signature.. While Ml Saad Sallamahu Ta'ala says such statements to encourage zeal among TJ brethren but that is not what he mentioned in the only Ijtimaa' I attended. Perhaps either his view has changed or maybe his khaas majalis have different tone than his public ones. Nontheless, I would like to know which old saathi can solve meraath (inheritance) mas'ala (The branch of knowledge Rasulullah :saw: called 50% of knowledge). Or how about Haidh (menses) issues? Ironically it would have to be an Alim. I assure you, even in ulama you will find few who would give you proper answers.

So why bicker. Accept that Islam is a gathering of different fields. All are beloved to us and none is superior to another. The zeal I would give to one is NOT dependent on my sacrifice for that field, rather my ability for that field. Basic Jawla, Gasht, etc is something all of us can do, and should do. BUT with the open mindset that this "tarteeb" is NOT something ordained in ahadeeth. Most of it is Administrative way, as explained by Sheikh Zakariyah r.a . Otherwise, I would like to know how many 4 months did Sheikh Zakariya r.a did? RATHER since he is an Alim, he was supposed to give 1 YEAR. but any sane person knows that efforts of deen is a bit more dynamic than this comparative argumentation.

Lets realize that and move on. There is lots of important stuff to be addressed. ALL my TJ brethren, you are here on the forum. using the facility your TJ akabir do not want you to use. But while you are here, please go to sections like "New Muslims" etc and help in the da'wah to those people. teach them basic deen. Carry out your work. Leave all these argumentations.

May Allah bless you all, Ameen

:ws:

sabm90
04-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Assalamualaikum brother....!


Pray to Allah ....yaaa Allah open our hearts (eyes of heart) for the work of tabligh....make supplication to Allah that Almighty shall give us baseerat over the work of tabligh....!
If u read Muntakhab-Ahadeeth (book read in the path of Allah with Fadail Aamaal)...you will see that Maulana Yousuf Kandhalvi Rh.A has mentioned the hadith of jehad in the volume of dawat and its fadail....jehad doesnt mean to kill an infidel rather it means to spend your life, money, mind, heart, and anything and everything Allah gave you for the purpose of effort of deen...whenever you are asked for money, you should give it , when u are asked for life you should give it, whenever you are asked to take the life of other you should take it...see brother today our and whole ummah's condition is that we cannot even make repentance for the sake of Allah, we cannot even give 4 months for the sake of Allah, how come we can give or take life for the sake of Allah...when the internal power of ummat will sufficiently increase to give their life for the cause of islam then our elders will say us to give your life....see brother there are many hadith in BUKHARI SHARIEF ...in the volume of jehad....many incidents are written in the book where actually no fighting with infidels took place but there was only dawat...Imam Bukhari has mentioned those incidents in the book of jehad...so jehad is to work for the cause of deen whatever you may asked to do......!
Our elders in nizamudin say that the work of dawat-tabligh is the jehad that suhabah (may Allah be pleased with them) did...


Mods is this definition of Jihad correct? Would anyone speak up against this?
Now dawat tabligh is similiar to Jihad of sahaba ra.
JOKE! Sahaba bistar nae kafan le k niklatay Allah k banday k! Hosh k nakhun lo

faizanakram99
04-06-2012, 06:16 PM
:salam:

This is not a place for discussion on TJ's issues. There is no benefit. You are correct that the elders do not allow internet, BUT you do fail to realize that it is elder's cassettes, CD's, MP3s which are spread far and wide. It is also the current giants of TJ like Ml. Tariq Jameel Saheb sallamahu ta'ala who's youtube HD crisp clear videos are advertised all over our forum. It is ALSO the same elders of different marakiz, who are using every available technology for travelling (cars, planes etc.).

The point is brother, there is no point making cliche remarks which are pointless in any discussion about TJ. TJ's ideology and manhaj is AMAL, not discussions. So please suppress the emotions and let targheeb be targheeb. Those who will join the effort will join it. Those who will chose to drink the anwaar of other anhaar (tasawuf, ta'leem etc) will do so.

Finally, I do wish to comment on your signature.. While Ml Saad Sallamahu Ta'ala says such statements to encourage zeal among TJ brethren but that is not what he mentioned in the only Ijtimaa' I attended. Perhaps either his view has changed or maybe his khaas majalis have different tone than his public ones. Nontheless, I would like to know which old saathi can solve meraath (inheritance) mas'ala (The branch of knowledge Rasulullah :saw: called 50% of knowledge). Or how about Haidh (menses) issues? Ironically it would have to be an Alim. I assure you, even in ulama you will find few who would give you proper answers.

So why bicker. Accept that Islam is a gathering of different fields. All are beloved to us and none is superior to another. The zeal I would give to one is NOT dependent on my sacrifice for that field, rather my ability for that field. Basic Jawla, Gasht, etc is something all of us can do, and should do. BUT with the open mindset that this "tarteeb" is NOT something ordained in ahadeeth. Most of it is Administrative way, as explained by Sheikh Zakariyah r.a . Otherwise, I would like to know how many 4 months did Sheikh Zakariya r.a did? RATHER since he is an Alim, he was supposed to give 1 YEAR. but any sane person knows that efforts of deen is a bit more dynamic than this comparative argumentation.

Lets realize that and move on. There is lots of important stuff to be addressed. ALL my TJ brethren, you are here on the forum. using the facility your TJ akabir do not want you to use. But while you are here, please go to sections like "New Muslims" etc and help in the da'wah to those people. teach them basic deen. Carry out your work. Leave all these argumentations.

May Allah bless you all, Ameen

:ws:
Assalamualaikum Maulana Sahab...May Allah give us taufeeq to respect Ulema...!
May Almighty Allah bless you and shower his blessings on you and all ulamas (scholars) of ummat...!
Hazrat i am sorry but i dont mean we should neglect Ilm...we are taught by elders to seek ilm of deen on daily basis from an Aalim like your goodself...May Allah give us taufeeq to seek knowledge of deen from respected scholars like your goodself...!
Hazrat i am sorry but i just want to say how can an old saathi of tabligh know masail of deen...Of course it is our duty to ask masail from hazrat ulemas....!
By quoting Maulana Saad Sb DB statement in signature i dont want to say that we shouldnt go to ulemas rather i want to say that we should go to ulemas...After all dawat means all what is in 6 points like Ilm-Zikr and In the Mashk (Practice) of Ilm we are said to go to ulemas for seeking knowledge of deen...So about my signature that dawat contains tarbiyat, tazkiyah and taleem...i mean that when we do what our elders say we will have tarbiyat, taleem and tazkiyah....and going to ulema for seeking knowledge of deen is often given targheeb rather takeed by our elders...
sorry if i wrote something wrong since i am a jaahil....May dua for me that Allah should give me istikaamat over the work of tabligh...after all ulemas like you are our elders....i am a jaahil....i am a jaahil ...i am a jaahil....!

sabm90
04-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Assalamualaikum brother...i dont want to discuss matters of tabligh with those people who dont know tabligh....sorry brother....but the thing i wrote that the work of tabligh is jehad of suhabah (Allah be pleased with them) is not my own thinking...it is said by respected Maulana Saad Sb DB...and i have clearly mentioned that one day will come insha allah when we will have sufficient imaani quwat to give our life for the sake of deen...insha allah one day we will also take kafan with ourself for the sake of deen but today our istidaad (imaani quwat) is much weak...we cannot even stop our eyes watching a non-muharram , nor we can give a few days for the sake of deen...howcome we can give life for the sake of deen...!
Brother the initial stage of tabligh is to give 4 months and the last stage is to give life for the sake of deen...!
It is still the initial stage...Insha Allah soon brother we will take kafn with ourself...if we would be alive we would see it or our generations by the will of Allah will see it....!
Anyways brother an aalim has posted in this section so we should not post further...after all ulema are our elders and we are nothing before them....May Allah keep their shadow on us for long...!
Allah bless you all brothers....i love it masha allah...u all are ummati...may allah give all of us hidayat...!
we are ummat...!
i guess i will delete the account and do my work with as i used to do...can someone tell me how to delete this account...!
Jazakallah

So which barometer do u have to gauge your iman? Iman strengthens under the shades of sword. If every amal needs a certain level of eeman then even before going to salah, you should gauge your eeman. There is no such thing as imani level.
The statement if said by maulana Saad db is correct, its not binding upon us if it goes against the sharia.

Brother the intial stage of TABLEEGHI JAMAT might be to give four months but this is not a requirement for tableegh. Who from akabir from Hazrat Nanotvi ru , Hazrat Gangohi ru Hazrat Thanvi ru went for tabligh? Werent they doing tableegh. Who before 1924 went for 4 months? You are making a blunder if you've confined tabligh to TABLEGHI JAMAT and their efforts.

ahamed_sharif
04-06-2012, 06:36 PM
Assalamu alaykum

Friends from TJ.

Kindly be aware that the Sunnifourm is owned and maintained by brothers in tasawwuf and partially jihadist. And you must be aware that it requires sacrifices of money, time and physical efforts to maintain a site. TJs are just GUESTS here. If TJ saathhees really want to start a forum, as Moulana AbuHajira Damath barkatuhum has said they should take permission from markaz, arrange for funds, put efforst and spend time to maintain a forum. Which TJ cannot afford to do (with my previous experience it is really impossible for TJ to maintain a forum). So you don't have the right to disagree with our respected brothers who are maintaining this site.

I recall an incident a few years back on SF, I said "this is our forum" ( I meant, madhabist, deobandee forum), I got a strong warning from an elder member here; he meant "this is not a your (TJ) site".

So, let us keep a low profile here on SF.

Insha Allah, in a phase manner I shall delete all my posts, but I don't know how to delete my threads here. Please don't think I am doing a knee jerk reaction. Wallah I am serious about it and thinking about it for a long time.

I humbly request other saathhees to follow me. By arguments with our brothers we are not bridging the gap but rather we are widening the gap, which is not good for TJ and Islam.

Wassalaam!!! Fee Amaanallah.

AK-1990
04-06-2012, 06:58 PM
Jihad and Tableegh are both different when it comes to their use in Sharia. In the sense of meanings we may conclude that both include some kind of Mehnat but there is a difference. When it was used by Sahaba Karaam rizwanullah Alaiyhim ajmaeen, it only meant to fight in the path of Allah against the Mushrikeen and the Kuffaar.
The concept can be clarified if you read the Salaf. All the Salaf have a consensus that Jihad means to fight in the path of Allah. And this is the real istelahi meaning of it not the Lughwi one.

syamuj
04-06-2012, 08:46 PM
Workers of Dawat and tableegh should avoid using special hidayah given by our Respected elders in public fora like Sunniforum.Those things are said in a particular majlis to a particular kind of people(You can say old workers).We cannot imply everything what Our elders say and we have no right to compel the public to follow it.

The best we can do at this stage is to make ourselves so much involved and pre-occupied with this noble work and ibaadah that we dont get time to fall into such argument.

I love and respect the zeal of some of my friends from tableegh here.But we should not get too desperate in proving somethings.Please Relax!!!

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 11:30 PM
see brother today our and whole ummah's condition is that we cannot even make repentance for the sake of Allah, we cannot even give 4 months for the sake of Allah, how come we can give or take life for the sake of Allah...

:salam:

this is a standard line in tabligh jamaat.... that how can we do jihad (qital) when we cant even pray our 5 times salaat, when we cant even go in jamaat for 4 months etc...

but the examples that refute this are glaring at us in our face. chechnya, bosnia, palestine, kashmir, afghanistan, china etc. i am sure that almost all the people fighting and carrying out jihad in these countries have not spent 4 months in jamaat. so why is it that THEY can give their lives for Allah even though they havent spent 4 months?

xs11ax
04-06-2012, 11:35 PM
and i have clearly mentioned that one day will come insha allah when we will have sufficient imaani quwat to give our life for the sake of deen...insha allah one day we will also take kafan with ourself for the sake of deen but today our istidaad (imaani quwat) is much weak...we cannot even stop our eyes watching a non-muharram , nor we can give a few days for the sake of deen...howcome we can give life for the sake of deen...!

there are many people who have not spent 4 months in jamaat who HAVE given and ARE giving their lives for Allah (as in my previous post).

but can you tell me how many tablighis who you know, who have spent 4 months etc, over the history of tabligh jamaat, have got to a stage where they have prepared themselves mentally and spiritually through tabligh jamaat, and have actually gone to the battlefield to give their lives for Allah?

SeekerOfGuidance
05-06-2012, 12:09 AM
:salam:

This was a reply to someone who attempted to compare the numbers reformed by one form of tabligh, to a whole science:



One can learn the basics of any field DIY (do-it-yourself) to a certain limited extent.

However, to reach perfection in ANY field requires the direct training of a certified expert in that field. No science of any nature, deeni or secular, is different when it comes to this very basic concept.

To become an expert in Hadith you need to complete your training under the supervision of a Muhaddith.

To perfect your knowledge of fiqh you need to complete your training under the supervision of a Faqih.

To perfect the state of your heart, (cleansing it of all illnesses, and improving the purity of intention until it reaches the state of Ihsan), you have to complete your training under the supervision of a Shaykh in Tasawwuf.

Tabligh Jamaat is just ONE method of propagating the deen. Tasawwuf is a whole science.To compare the numbers changed by a science, to just one method of Tabligh, is absurd. If you really insist on comparing numbers properly, then you must take into account the individuals that tasawwuf have produced, and the number of people whom they brought to the deen.

It would not be an exaggeration to say that individuals such as Moinuddeen Chishti, Mujaddid Alf-e-Thaani, Shah Waliullah and other sufis were each responsible for shaping and influencing millions of lives.

All the Deobandi Akabir were products of the training of a Shaykh in tasawwuf. Collectively they have changed, and their teachings and inheritors continue to change, millions of lives throughout the world, through EVERY effort. Tabligh Jamaat would not even be existent without the effort of just one of our akabir, Hazrat Maulana Ilyas (rahmatullahi alayhi), who only became a Wali through 30 years of training under another Wali.

As for those who complain that Tabligh is the target of unfair criticism, while the sufis are free, just do a simple search on this forum, and you will find an abundance of threads devoted to criticising the charlatans who are besmirching this essential science.

The presence of corrupt tariqas should not be allowed to devalue the science of tasawwuf.

The corrupt actions of some Mujahideen should not be allowed to devalue Jihad.

The number of fabricators of Hadith should not be allowed to devalue the science of Hadith.

Similarly, if Tabligh Jamaat becomes corrupted it should not be allowed to devalue the importance of Tabligh itself.



:ws:

samy.3660
05-06-2012, 11:07 AM
Assalamu Alaikum w.b,
I feel sad after reading this thread, we are dividing ourself so much, I cant beleive. We are ahle sunnah wal jamaat, please do not create tassawuf-tabligh divide.
My sincere advice to tableeghi brother, please don't divide ourselves. This is sunni forum brother's. Our brothers are going to la madhabees, i know of brothers who have been let away from tableeg to being ahle hadiths. Most tableeghis cannot defend themselves when confronted with ahle hadith.
Knowledge of fadhail of amaal is important, but knowledge of imaan and masail is more important. Most of our brother's think lowly of those people who are not part of tableegh, and more bad is when they think lowly of ulama's.
While i have hardly seen any brother who is not a part of tableegh to think bad of tableegh jamaat.
Take for example people on this forum, they all consider tableegh jamaat a wonderful and beneficial effort. But our tableeghy brother belittle every effort, some frankly and some in disguise.
I request my brother ahmed sharif, to reconsider his decision to quit this forum. I love you brother, and like to read all your post, maybe because we share same name and we are from same city.

AK-1990
05-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Assalamualaikum brothers...!

PLEASE READ EACH AND EVERY WORD CAREFULLY AND WITH FULL ATTENTION...PLEASE...ONCE AGAIN....READ WHOLE POST....PLEASE ALL BROTHERS...

cool down for the sake of Allah...maybe i might not be able to make u understand what i mean...i am not against anything neither jehad nor tassawuff nor madaris....may allah help us all and help all causes of deen...!
brothers i am myself from kashmir...i am from srinagar (summer capital of kashmir-India occupied)...i know what happens here...i know those people who gave life here in 2008 and 2009 and 2010 for so called sake of deen...i dont want to discuss any political matters...but brother you know what come here kashmir and see that no one compels us to leave our deen...but still most of young people who are engaged in stone pelting here in kashmir say that we want freedom but they have freedom of deen but not freedom of land ...see brother most of stone pelters in kashmir are those young people which neither have link with madaris nor with tassawuff ...even brother most of them dont have a dress of shariah and most of them are hooligans...see brother ....i m a kashmiri ...and believe me what i am saying ...i know better than you people what is happening here....!

In 2008 i was also involved...i too used to pelt stones over indian army...brother but that time i was neither having beard nor did i pray salat....if i would have died in 2008 agitation sincerely i might have gone to hell....as my death would not be for the sake of deen it was for only my land "KASHMIR"....i dont know what happens in afganistan and other states...but brother i really love those mujahideens who are following shariah...i also make dua for them...i support them brother....!

Brother one more thing...hundreds of youth died kashmir in these three years and you know what brothers most of them used to wear jeans and were clean shaved...how come a person who is not even followin sunnah and basic farz can give his life for the sake of deen...see brother it is not only jehad it is jehad-fee-sabeelillah.....jehad is easy but fee sabeelillah is not easy ....it means for Allah's pleasure....fee sabelillah is attained by qurbani and mujahidah...may it be in the form of tassawuff or in the form of tabligh...that is what i wanted to say....i dont oppose fighting against infidels....see brother ikhlaas (quality by virtue of which one seeks Allah's pleasure) is obligatory for jehad...how can ikhlaas come with jeans and clean shaved faces....brother tassawuff and tabligh is for creating ikhlaas.....saleh-salf were full of ikhlaas so their every fight with infidels was really jehad like Hazrat Makhdoom Sb Rh.A, Syed Hussain Madani Rh.A, Syed Ahmad Shaheed Rh.A, but brother our body is empty of deen how can our hearts be filled with ikhlaas...

Brothers in kashmir whether it is aseebat or jehad....ulemas on kashmir know it better not ulemas of other states...come kashmir and ask our beloved ulemas and mashaikh about situation of kashmir they will tell you whether youth of kashmir are doing jehad or aseebat...brother here are many great ulemas in kashmir like Maulana Rehmatullah Sb DB (Rukn Shariah Deoband and Khaleefa Ajal of Mufti Mahmood ul Hasan Gangohi Rh.A), Mufti Ayuv SB DB (Khaleefa of Peer Zulfikar Sb DB), Maulana Hameedullah Lone Sb DB (Khaleefa of Maulana Maseehullah Khan Sb Rh.A)...brothers it would be very shocking for you to listen that none of these ulemas was with agitation of 2008 and 2010...they didnt call that agitation as jehad

Brother in short see the situation of whole ummat...how much deen is practically with us...listen brother on one side christian missionaries are converting our youth into christianity and on the other side our youth are following west, our sisters are day by day becoming much more naked...see brother this is not time for discussion...i am sorry if i hurt anybody...see brother this is time for unity....i love you all brothers....u are really my brothers as you all are ummatties...may allah bless you all...!

i am once again sorry.....i woudnt write the above post...but i had to....i am sorry!
:salam:

There are many things in your post above. But I believe your post generally revolves around the concept of Ikhlaas (Purity of Intention). Brother, let me be very straightforward there are 2 types of acts in Islam. The first type of act is related to the one's own Zaat (personal deeds) while the other are Ijtimaayi (acts which relate to the surroundings of a person). For example, praying 2 Nafil rakaats for Allah's pleasure is an act that is related to one's own zaat while acts like Jihad is both related to one's own self and to the surroundings.

The things you have quoted above are related to one's own self rather the acts performed in congregation or which have an affect to the surroundings. Sorry, I may be vague but let me explain further. Today the Ummah is oppressed mercilessly everywhere in the world be it Kashmir, Afghanistan, Somalia, Palestine or Syria. I believe the act that is needed to be done in Ijtimaaiyat is Jihad, specifically Qitaal, only this act will have an prominent and most needed effect for the Ummah and only this kind of Nusrat is direly needed at this stage. What you are talking about fighting for the 'land' and fighting for one's own Qaum/nation are acts of one's own self that will be questioned on the day of Judgement from the specific person but that does not mean in anyway that after seeing such people and examples we leave Jihad and resort to Tableegh only.

And Allah knows best!

samy.3660
05-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Fighting for your land is also a jihad. please correct me if i am wrong.

Ahmed
05-06-2012, 12:09 PM
if one truly understands tabligh and tasawwuf

one would not argue endlessly either, or

lets talk about bringing islam/deen into our lives

samy.3660
05-06-2012, 03:29 PM
Assalamualaikum brothers...!
Almighty bless you all....!
well brother i dont know anything...you people know what...really i respect all causes of deen from my heart...!
i came just from the majlis of Maulana Sajjad Nomani Sb DB...he is here in our city srinagar, kashmir today...why would i go in his majlis if i would belittle other causes of deen....brothers i love you all after all you are among those muslims who work for the upliftment of muslims...may allah help you all...!
Well brothers...what we do and what we not do lies within whom we follow and whom we not follow...in other words it is aqeedat of someone whose advices we follow...salikeen follow advices of their respective sheikhs as they have aatimaad and aatikaad with them....similarly others people....!
brothers i am sorry if i hurt someone...what our elders say i should do it and i cannot compel it to others until they too have aqeedat with our elders as i have...so it would be better for me not to share my feelings in public forum...i now got what brother ahmad said ....see brothers there is something within my heart which i cant show you by words nor can i express it...let it be with me and i would share it with brothers who accompany me... because feelings are shared by suhbat...anyway brothers...!
Allah bless you all...see brothers there is one thing ...as our aamal as are the orders from Allah...what are aamals of our people of our city and state we know better...so do such effort of deen by which we and whole ummat will walk on deen...!
Our elders say there is no takabul (comparison) in causes of deen...let each person do the effort as his elder says(like his Murshid or Sheikh)...and Our Ameer Sb DB of Kashmir is a high level sufi saint and a great daaiee...he once said "Saalikeen to mat chhedoo" (Dont interfere with matters of saalikeen)....Sorry brothers the posts i wrote were not for you...these are to be shared with old workers of tabligh...Other brothers who do some other effort of deen like saalikeen would not understand it just like we wont understand high masaail (like that of inheritance) ...!

So brothers...tell me how to delete SF account...!

WalaikumuSalaam brother,I also try to listen to maulana Sajjad nomani DB bayans, he has his khanqah in our city. Remember me in your duas.

xs11ax
05-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Fighting for your land is also a jihad. please correct me if i am wrong.

fighting for muslim lands and protecting its borders is jihad.

sabm90
05-06-2012, 03:54 PM
Assalamualaikum brothers...!

PLEASE READ EACH AND EVERY WORD CAREFULLY AND WITH FULL ATTENTION...PLEASE...ONCE AGAIN....READ WHOLE POST....PLEASE ALL BROTHERS...

cool down for the sake of Allah...maybe i might not be able to make u understand what i mean...i am not against anything neither jehad nor tassawuff nor madaris....may allah help us all and help all causes of deen...!
brothers i am myself from kashmir...i am from srinagar (summer capital of kashmir-India occupied)...i know what happens here...i know those people who gave life here in 2008 and 2009 and 2010 for so called sake of deen...i dont want to discuss any political matters...but brother you know what come here kashmir and see that no one compels us to leave our deen...but still most of young people who are engaged in stone pelting here in kashmir say that we want freedom but they have freedom of deen but not freedom of land ...see brother most of stone pelters in kashmir are those young people which neither have link with madaris nor with tassawuff ...even brother most of them dont have a dress of shariah and most of them are hooligans...see brother ....i m a kashmiri ...and believe me what i am saying ...i know better than you people what is happening here....!

In 2008 i was also involved...i too used to pelt stones over indian army...brother but that time i was neither having beard nor did i pray salat....if i would have died in 2008 agitation sincerely i might have gone to hell....as my death would not be for the sake of deen it was for only my land "KASHMIR"....i dont know what happens in afganistan and other states...but brother i really love those mujahideens who are following shariah...i also make dua for them...i support them brother....!

Brother one more thing...hundreds of youth died kashmir in these three years and you know what brothers most of them used to wear jeans and were clean shaved...how come a person who is not even followin sunnah and basic farz can give his life for the sake of deen...see brother it is not only jehad it is jehad-fee-sabeelillah.....jehad is easy but fee sabeelillah is not easy ....it means for Allah's pleasure....fee sabelillah is attained by qurbani and mujahidah...may it be in the form of tassawuff or in the form of tabligh...that is what i wanted to say....i dont oppose fighting against infidels....see brother ikhlaas (quality by virtue of which one seeks Allah's pleasure) is obligatory for jehad...how can ikhlaas come with jeans and clean shaved faces....brother tassawuff and tabligh is for creating ikhlaas.....saleh-salf were full of ikhlaas so their every fight with infidels was really jehad like Hazrat Makhdoom Sb Rh.A, Syed Hussain Madani Rh.A, Syed Ahmad Shaheed Rh.A, but brother our body is empty of deen how can our hearts be filled with ikhlaas...

Brothers in kashmir whether it is aseebat or jehad....ulemas on kashmir know it better not ulemas of other states...come kashmir and ask our beloved ulemas and mashaikh about situation of kashmir they will tell you whether youth of kashmir are doing jehad or aseebat...brother here are many great ulemas in kashmir like Maulana Rehmatullah Sb DB (Rukn Shariah Deoband and Khaleefa Ajal of Mufti Mahmood ul Hasan Gangohi Rh.A), Mufti Ayuv SB DB (Khaleefa of Peer Zulfikar Sb DB), Maulana Hameedullah Lone Sb DB (Khaleefa of Maulana Maseehullah Khan Sb Rh.A)...brothers it would be very shocking for you to listen that none of these ulemas was with agitation of 2008 and 2010...they didnt call that agitation as jehad

Brother in short see the situation of whole ummat...how much deen is practically with us...listen brother on one side christian missionaries are converting our youth into christianity and on the other side our youth are following west, our sisters are day by day becoming much more naked...see brother this is not time for discussion...i am sorry if i hurt anybody...see brother this is time for unity....i love you all brothers....u are really my brothers as you all are ummatties...may allah bless you all...!

i am once again sorry.....i woudnt write the above post...but i had to....i am sorry!

So fighting the infidels without beard and shalwar kameez means you arent performing Jihad? How silly you can get i wonder! If a person doesnt performs fajr salah would that mean he cant perform rest of the four salahs because the mujahida in fajr is far greater than the rest of the four. Your analogy is absolutely wrong.

In your previous post jihad was difficult now it becomes easy and fee sabillah becomes difficult. You will defend tablighi jamat at all costs!

sabm90
06-06-2012, 06:56 AM
Assalamualaikum brother...!
well i wrote my opinion ...rest is your choice...i cant compel anyone to follow my opinion...i dont know anything, i am not a scholar...i just told in the post you quoted about the happenings in kashmir and the opinion of ulemas of our state about it...anyways Almighty bless you all...it is better for us to ask ulemas about this issue...they better know...brother you know what...just one more thing i want to say....u know what here in kashmir mostly salafis were involved in 2008 and 2010 agitation and their ulemas called it jehad but ulemas of hanafi fiqh (deobandi) called it as a punishment of Allah for disobeying Allah Ta-ala...!

Brother if we see seerat (life) of suhabah...you will see that the battle of badr was held after hijrah although infidels of mekkah were consistently harming muslims...why werent suhabah fighting back and why was the 1st battle between muslims and kuffars held so late almost after 15yrs after nubawat...!
See brother Haji Abdul Wahab DB says about it as follows (words may be different but meaning would be same insha allah)

"Suhabah ko ladnay ke ijazat tab milee jab unkay jazbaat tootgaye thay...unke saare nisbate khatam hogaye theee bus abh allah aur uskay rasool ke nisbat rehgaye thee"...in other words their hearts were filled with ikhlaas...!

It is my humble request to you brother as you are from pakistan...go raiwand markaz regularly and with the grace of almighty spent 4 months in the path of Allah...!

see brother there is no such jamaat like tablighi jamaat...the word jamaat is word of division...you say your jamaat and i say my jamaaat ...hence we divide ummat into two jamaats...our elders say this thing..!

we are ummat and we do the work of tabligh as a responsibility of an ummati thats it...it is not any jamaat...u see there is no headquarter or receipt book or office of tabligh as it is not jamaat ...u see brother no banner or website as it is not a jamaat it is just the effort that beloved nabi (peace be upon him) and suhabah (Allah be pleased with them) did...!

Sahaba ko larnay ki ijazat k peeche hikmat dhoondna hmara kaam nae! Sahaba ko larnay ka hukum nae tha is liye nae laray!
Aur Ghazwa e badr mein makki sahab kam thay madni sahaba ziada thay to un per to 13 saal ki mushaqqatain nae guzri to kiya un mein ikhlaas ki kami thi? Ap k qaul k mutabiq to unka iman hi nae bna tha phr?

Yes i agree that tableeghi can be done in any form and associating oneself to tableeghi jamat is not necessary.!

sabm90
06-06-2012, 06:59 AM
Sahaba ko larnay ki ijazat k peeche hikmat dhoondna hmara kaam nae! Sahaba ko larnay ka hukum nae tha is liye nae laray!
Aur Ghazwa e badr mein makki sahab kam thay madni sahaba ziada thay to un per to 13 saal ki mushaqqatain nae guzri to kiya un mein ikhlaas ki kami thi? Ap k qaul k mutabiq to unka iman hi nae bna tha phr?

Yes i agree that tableeghi can be done in any form and associating oneself to tableeghi jamat is not necessary.!

Even the hanafis are active in Kashmir alhamdulillah!

sabm90
06-06-2012, 07:18 AM
the hanafies active in kashmir dont even know basics of deen...the people who are connected to some mashaikh here in kashmir or those who are involved in effort in form of madaris or even effort of tabligh...all these three alhe-haq are not active here...as i am from kashmir...i know what is happening here brother...see whatever is happening here in kashmir or in any part of world to muslims it is because we left the effort of deen and we indulged ourlselves in sins...brother read muslamanu ke paste kaa wahid ilaaj...which is the last book of fadail aamal...maybe you may get something...!
i dont oppose anyone but brother when to do qitaal and when not to do....ulemas know it better....no ulema of our state has declared that we should qitaal....i posted before also brother...here are very big ulemas like Maulana Rehmatullah Qasmi DB who is khaleefa of Mufti Mahmoodul Hassan Gangohi Rh.A. and Rukn Shariah Darul uloom deoband, Mufti Nazir Qasmi DB who is member of international Fiqh Academy, Mufti Abdur Rashid Muhtaahi DB who is khaleefa of Maulana Maseehullah Khan Sb Rh.A., Maulana Hameedullah Lone SB who is elder khaleefa of Maulana Maseehullah Khan Sb Rh.A, Mufti Ayub Sb DB who is khaleefa of Mufti Mahmoodul Hassan Gangohi Rh.A as well as Peer Zulfikar Sb DB.....ask them brother whether qitaal is required in kashmir or not...i dont know anything ask ulemas brother ....!

Click here (http://www.humanvalues.in/) to goto site of kashmiri ulemas...and call them...!

talk about usool and not the people.
You've made a bold statement. I've met kashmiri mujahideen and alhamdulillah they are quite learned and practicing. If so and so ulema dont allow that, read the other side o the ulema as well and then decide. And your state ulemas are not the one whose words are the bottom line.

sabm90
06-06-2012, 07:30 AM
Read musalmanu ke paste kaa wahid ilaaj brother...and go raiwand markaz regularly and spent 4 months in the path of allah then you may get what i mean...just like unless i dont become an aalim by going to some darul uloom for 8 years i wouldnt be able to know the masaail...similarly you wount get me unless you read that book and go markaz regularly and spent 4 months brother....!
And brother i was just telling you what happened here in 2008 and 2010 was just a consequence of our bad deeds ...i am not totally against those people who are consistantly striving from years..May Allah help them...!

Yes read musalmanu ki pasti ka wahid ilaj. Where maulana ru quotes surah nisa ruku 13. Read what he writes beneath that!

Why are you forcing someone to go to raiwand markaz and 4 months when it is not farz or wajib!

London786
10-11-2012, 10:36 AM
bhai naqshband is your shaykh pir asif hussain farooqi db? With regards to the need of the hour....the ummah of the prophet Muhammad sallahualahiwasalam is at such a level including myself that we should regard both amaal e nabuwat and amaal e wilayat as our needs and whoever does whatever effort, however small or big it maybe we should appreciate it and consider it our own. With regards to maulana ilyas rh then he was a big time sufi and would do muraqabah at the grave of shaykh nur rh and what can be said of shaykh ul hadeeth saab. He was a sufi first and foremost and everything else comes later and he made tasawuff and spreading zikr the maqsad of his life and was involved in tasawuff like how maulana ilyas was totally immersed in tabligh (though maulana ilyas rh was obviously a sufi as well). With regards to maulana saad saab db then it is better to not talk negatively about him even by way of hinting but he obviously has his own ijtihaad and it should be seen as a matter of a difference of opinion based on rahmah. With regards to maulana saad saab db being the amir of tabligh then as far as I know it is incorrect as he is not the amir (someone please correct me if im wrong)

xs11ax
10-11-2012, 04:37 PM
With regards to maulana saad saab db being the amir of tabligh then as far as I know it is incorrect as he is not the amir (someone please correct me if im wrong)


:salam: brother. hope you and the family are well.

as far as i know tabligh jamaat no longer has an ameer since hazrat jee moulana inamul hassan (ra) passed away. they now operate on a shura system.

AbdAllah313
28-11-2012, 10:19 AM
Assalamu alaykum

Friends from TJ.

Kindly be aware that the Sunnifourm is owned and maintained by brothers in tasawwuf and partially jihadist. And you must be aware that it requires sacrifices of money, time and physical efforts to maintain a site. TJs are just GUESTS here. If TJ saathhees really want to start a forum, as Moulana AbuHajira Damath barkatuhum has said they should take permission from markaz, arrange for funds, put efforst and spend time to maintain a forum. Which TJ cannot afford to do (with my previous experience it is really impossible for TJ to maintain a forum). So you don't have the right to disagree with our respected brothers who are maintaining this site.

I recall an incident a few years back on SF, I said "this is our forum" ( I meant, madhabist, deobandee forum), I got a strong warning from an elder member here; he meant "this is not a your (TJ) site".

So, let us keep a low profile here on SF.

Insha Allah, in a phase manner I shall delete all my posts, but I don't know how to delete my threads here. Please don't think I am doing a knee jerk reaction. Wallah I am serious about it and thinking about it for a long time.

I humbly request other saathhees to follow me. By arguments with our brothers we are not bridging the gap but rather we are widening the gap, which is not good for TJ and Islam.

Wassalaam!!! Fee Amaanallah.

Agreed

amr123
28-11-2012, 04:44 PM
if one truly understands tabligh and tasawwuf

one would not argue endlessly either, or

lets talk about bringing islam/deen into our lives

Agreed.

AbdAllah313
03-12-2012, 09:41 AM
Agreed.

Really vey true brother amr I also agree on your statement

FususAlHikam
28-12-2012, 08:30 AM
As Salam Alaikum,

Let me just say at the start that I am not totally against the Jama'atut-Tabligh. I have gone with them and sat with them several times and have seen first hand the benefit that they have brought to countless people who were in heedlessness. May Allah reward them for that and increase them in good-Amin.

After spending some time with them and listening to their speeches (given by their more experienced ones) recently, I started to question their approach in light of Tasawwuf and specifically, the writtings of Imam al Ghazali in his Ihya'.

It seems to me that the Jama'atut-Tabligh focus mostly on Fada'il, increasing the love of Allah, and giving hope (the concept of Raja'). When comparing this method for addressing the common Muslims (ourselves) with the words of al Ghazali, one cant help but see some discrepency.

Imam al Ghazali (as well as those who summerized his work such as Ibn al-Jawzi and Ibn al-Qudamah) held the view that the people were in such a state of Ghaflah, that they should be addressed with Fear and the evil consequences of sins. They should not, in al Ghazali's view, be goaded to the right way via the route of Raja' (hoping).

I see the need for a balance between both ways- i.e. Targhib and Tarhib together. But my question here is for those who are familliar with the Jama'ah as well as the Ihya': Do you see a discrepency between the way of the Jama'ah and the way mentioned by al Ghazali? Which one in your view is better? If we leave the way mentioned by al Ghazali then why? and couldnt we say that as an Ummah we are in worse state than we were in the time of al Ghazali?

I am not asking these questions to open a door to any polemics agaisnt the Jama'ah. This is a serious question that has been heavy on my mind for some time, and I would appreciate anyone who can shed some light on this.

Jazakum Allah Khaira

Wow this post is from back in 2005 incredible.

Moulana Ilyas (ra), in my opinion, uses strictly tahliya approach. In usool of tabligh you are not supposed to even discuss negative for example like even say, "Majority of Ummah does not pray." This is a no no. You should only highlight positive and build on it, that is why Fazail e A'maal is the chosen book.

Imam Ghazzali (ra) ghaliban was more of a Suhrawardi type, hardcore takhliyah, crush nafs, bulldoze nafs, destroy nafs.

But the comparison is not proper; in this time and age tabligh jamaat is the better approach.

Servant.of.Allah
28-12-2012, 09:30 AM
both the roads lead to Jannah...

If Tabligh is your Islah, Tabligh is your Islah

If Tasawwuf is your Islah, then Tasawwuf is your Islah

dont mix things here...

We are not here to analyse between Shaykh Ilyas R.A and Imam Ghazzali R.A 's approaches... Our good deeds are not even equal to the dust in their slippers

I choose TJ and Alhamdulillah its easy and helpful in this time. Lets now stop the fight/argument/debate between us - it ll become a rejoice for Salafis and Barelvis